{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5531", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5531, "subject": "Babbie, a Destrier?", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-01-10T22:52:18+00:00", "last": "2010-01-12T04:46:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tom Hopkins", "address": "topkins at hotmail.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-01-10T22:52:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello I'm new to the group so please forgive me if this has\nalready been asked. I also apologise If I have submitted this to the wrong\nplace.\n\n\n\nAfter reading recently through the Long and Short Sun books, it seems to me\nthat Babbie is hinted to be what Severian comes to know as a Destrier, or they\nare related in some way.\n\nSeveral features seem to be common to both: the tusks or long teeth, the red\neyes and the claws which are often called hooves. Whilst Babbie starts off\nsmall, he grows to be around the same size as I imagine a Destrier does. The\nmain problem I see against this theory is the fact a Hus is described as having\n8 legs, whilst I can't remember Destriers being described as such, I also\nhowever cannot remember them being described as having only 4 limbs either; and\nas for much of my first reading I simply assumed Destriers to be horses, I can\nimagine myself merely assuming they have four limbs also. \n\nThe main issue that confuses me is that even if they aren't the same creature,\nwhy are they so similar. Especially the part when Babbie first emerges and horn\nsays;\n\n\"It advanced, the thick, short claws some people call hooves loud on the\nstone floor,\". As well as all the other details, they seem too similar for\nit to be merely accidental even if they are a completely different species.\n\n\n\nAfter searching through the archives I couldn't find this topic yet\ndiscussed, I apologise if it has been and I simply missed it. I am just\ncurious to hear your thoughts on the matter, even If I am completely wrong, so\nany replies would be much appreciated.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<521973.33126.qm@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2010-01-11T12:56:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right about the resemblances, but I don't think they're the same. — In the Appendix to Shadow, Wolfe says, \"I have scrupled to call these creatures horses, since I am certain the word is not strictly correct. ? ??The 'Destriers' of — The Book of the New Sun are unquestionably swifter and more enduring than the animals we know, and the speed of those used for military purposes seems to permit the delivering of cavalry charges against enemies supported by high-energy armament.\"\nThis passage suggests that destriers are closely related to our horses--probably genetically modified--and not as different as the eight-legged hus.\n\nBest wishes,\n\n\n\nJack\n\n--- On Sun, 1/10/10, Tom Hopkins wrote:\n\nFrom: Tom Hopkins \nSubject: (urth) Babbie, a Destrier?\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 5:52 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n\n\n\nHello I'm new to the group so please forgive me if this has\nalready been asked. I also apologise If I have submitted this to the wrong\nplace.\n\n\n\nAfter reading recently through the Long and Short Sun books, it seems to me\nthat Babbie is hinted to be what Severian comes to know as a Destrier, or they\nare related in some way.\n\nSeveral features seem to be common to both: the tusks or long teeth, the red\neyes and the claws which are often called hooves. Whilst Babbie starts off\nsmall, he grows to be around the same size as I imagine a Destrier does. The\nmain problem I see against this theory is the fact a Hus is described as having\n8 legs, whilst I can't remember Destriers being described as such, I also\nhowever cannot remember them being described as having only 4 limbs either; and\nas for much of my first reading I simply assumed Destriers to be horses, I can\nimagine myself merely assuming they have four limbs also. \n\nThe main issue that confuses me is that even if they aren't the same creature,\nwhy are they so similar. Especially the part when Babbie first emerges and horn\nsays;\n\n\"It advanced, the thick, short claws some people call hooves loud on the\nstone floor,\". As well as all the other details, they seem too similar for\nit to be merely accidental even if they are a completely different species.\n\n\n\nAfter searching through the archives I couldn't find this topic yet\ndiscussed, I apologise if it has been and I simply missed it. I am just\ncurious to hear your thoughts on the matter, even If I am completely wrong, so\nany replies would be much appreciated.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t \nWe want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tom Hopkins", "address": "topkins at hotmail.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-01-11T15:52:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": "<521973.33126.qm@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My problem with this is that in Appendix of Shadow of the\nClaw, Wolfe is acting as the translator rather than the writer himself. He only\nknows the facts provided by Severian, and if Destriers were to have 8 legs it\nmay be something he were to take for granted, as for him it would be\ncommonplace and known by nearly all; and therefore fail to mention. With\nanimals throughout the books he rarely describes them in depth, merely by name\nas he assumes we would know what they are. I feel this could be another such\ncase, or maybe merely something Gene Wolfe decided to elaborate on later in\nanother series as nothing contradicts it in the original text. \n\n\n\nThe main problem I have is just how similar they are, unless its just Wolfe\nplaying tricks I feel there must be a reason behind it. I also found the Shear\nBear mentioned in the Long Sun omnibus to be very reminiscent of the Alzabo in\nNew Sun; this however is more of a guess and has much less evidence to support\na link between the two. The only real inclination I got of this was merely in\nthe text where the Shear Bear is mentioned it does sound similar to the\nattributes of an Alzabo.\n\n\n\nAnother point I feel worth mentioning which relates to all 3 is that the Hus,\nDestriers and Alzabo are all described as having red eyes. Whilst this could\nwell be nothing, it seems curious to me as all 3 (If we are counting Hus and\nDestriers as separate) are of alien origin, with at least the Destrier being in\nsome way a construct of man. Does this hint a connection between them all, in that\nthey are possibly from the same planet or eco system?\n\n\nI'd be very interested to hear thoughts on the matter, thanks.\n\nDate: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 04:56:25 -0800\nFrom: jsmith2627 at att.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie, a Destrier?\n\nYou're right about the resemblances, but I don't think they're the same. In the Appendix to Shadow, Wolfe says, \"I have scrupled to call these creatures horses, since I am certain the word is not strictly correct. The 'Destriers' of The Book of the New Sun are unquestionably swifter and more enduring than the animals we know, and the speed of those used for military purposes seems to permit the delivering of cavalry charges against enemies supported by high-energy armament.\"\nThis passage suggests that destriers are closely related to our horses--probably genetically modified--and not as different as the eight-legged hus.\n\nBest wishes,\n\n\n\nJack\n\n--- On Sun, 1/10/10, Tom Hopkins wrote:\n\nFrom: Tom Hopkins \nSubject: (urth) Babbie, a Destrier?\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 5:52 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n\nHello I'm new to the group so please forgive me if this has\nalready been asked. I also apologise If I have submitted this to the wrong\nplace.\n\n\n\nAfter reading recently through the Long and Short Sun books, it seems to me\nthat Babbie is hinted to be what Severian comes to know as a Destrier, or they\nare related in some way.\n\nSeveral features seem to be common to both: the tusks or long teeth, the red\neyes and the claws which are often called hooves. Whilst Babbie starts off\nsmall, he grows to be around the same size as I imagine a Destrier does. The\nmain problem I see against this theory is the fact a Hus is described as having\n8 legs, whilst I can't remember Destriers being described as such, I also\nhowever cannot remember them being described as having only 4 limbs either; and\nas for much of my first reading I simply assumed Destriers to be horses, I can\nimagine myself merely assuming they have four limbs also. \n\nThe main issue that confuses me is that even if they aren't the same creature,\nwhy are they so similar. Especially the part when Babbie first emerges and horn\nsays;\n\n\"It advanced, the thick, short claws some people call hooves loud on the\nstone floor,\". As well as all the other details, they seem too similar for\nit to be merely accidental even if they are a completely different species.\n\n\n\nAfter searching through the archives I couldn't find this topic yet\ndiscussed, I apologise if it has been and I simply missed it. I am just\ncurious to hear your thoughts on the matter, even If I am completely wrong, so\nany replies would be much appreciated.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t \nWe want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f1001110755h1a99cbcbu42fdeff1d1b2c69b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-11T15:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Wolfe thinks that red eyes look cool." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Tom Hopkins wrote:\n My problem with this is that in Appendix of Shadow of the Claw, Wolfe is\nacting as the translator rather than the writer himself. He only knows the\nfacts provided by Severian, and if Destriers were to have 8 legs it may be\nsomething he were to take for granted, as for him it would be commonplace\nand known by nearly all; and therefore fail to mention. With animals\nthroughout the books he rarely describes them in depth, merely by name as he\nassumes we would know what they are. I feel this could be another such case,\nor maybe merely something Gene Wolfe decided to elaborate on later in\nanother series as nothing contradicts it in the original text.\n\nThe main problem I have is just how similar they are, unless its just Wolfe\nplaying tricks I feel there must be a reason behind it. I also found the\nShear Bear mentioned in the Long Sun omnibus to be very reminiscent of the\nAlzabo in New Sun; this however is more of a guess and has much less\nevidence to support a link between the two. The only real inclination I got\nof this was merely in the text where the Shear Bear is mentioned it does\nsound similar to the attributes of an Alzabo.\n\nAnother point I feel worth mentioning which relates to all 3 is that the\nHus, Destriers and Alzabo are all described as having red eyes. Whilst this\ncould well be nothing, it seems curious to me as all 3 (If we are counting\nHus and Destriers as separate) are of alien origin, with at least the\nDestrier being in some way a construct of man. Does this hint a connection\nbetween them all, in that they are possibly from the same planet or eco\nsystem?\n\nI'd be very interested to hear thoughts on the matter, thanks.\n\n------------------------------\nDate: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 04:56:25 -0800\nFrom: jsmith2627 at att.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie, a Destrier?\n\n\n You're right about the resemblances, but I don't think they're the same.\n In the Appendix to *Shadow,* Wolfe says, \"I have scrupled to call these\ncreatures *horses*, since I am certain the word is not strictly correct.\n The 'Destriers' of *The Book of the New Sun* are unquestionably\nswifter and more enduring than the animals we know, and the speed of those\nused for military purposes seems to permit the delivering of cavalry charges\nagainst enemies supported by high-energy armament.\"\n\nThis passage suggests that destriers are closely related to our\nhorses--probably genetically modified--and not as different as the\neight-legged hus.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n--- On *Sun, 1/10/10, Tom Hopkins * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Tom Hopkins \nSubject: (urth) Babbie, a Destrier?\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 5:52 PM\n\n Hello I'm new to the group so please forgive me if this has already been\nasked. I also apologise If I have submitted this to the wrong place.\n\nAfter reading recently through the Long and Short Sun books, it seems to me\nthat Babbie is hinted to be what Severian comes to know as a Destrier, or\nthey are related in some way.\nSeveral features seem to be common to both: the tusks or long teeth, the\nred eyes and the claws which are often called hooves. Whilst Babbie starts\noff small, he grows to be around the same size as I imagine a Destrier does.\nThe main problem I see against this theory is the fact a Hus is described as\nhaving 8 legs, whilst I can't remember Destriers being described as such, I\nalso however cannot remember them being described as having only 4 limbs\neither; and as for much of my first reading I simply assumed Destriers to be\nhorses, I can imagine myself merely assuming they have four limbs also.\nThe main issue that confuses me is that even if they aren't the same\ncreature, why are they so similar. Especially the part when Babbie first\nemerges and horn says;\n\"It advanced, the thick, short claws some people call hooves loud on the\nstone floor,\". As well as all the other details, they seem too similar for\nit to be merely accidental even if they are a completely different species.\n\nAfter searching through the archives I couldn't find this topic yet\ndiscussed, I apologise if it has been and I simply missed it. I am just\ncurious to hear your thoughts on the matter, even If I am completely wrong,\nso any replies would be much appreciated.\n\n------------------------------\nWe want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell\nus now \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B4BA3DC.9020906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-01-11T22:19:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f1001110755h1a99cbcbu42fdeff1d1b2c69b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think sometimes it's that simple.\n\nIf anything, I think they are markers of otherworldliness. Gnomes, kobolds, dwarves (my email composer wants me to say \"dwarfs\"!), orcs, etc., often have red eyes, or black. Granted, brownies have brown eyes and fairies blue. \n\nFor Wolfe, red eyes seem to be a sign of alien-ness, like multiple legs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:55:49 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B4BD5CF.9070708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-01-12T01:52:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tom Hopkins wrote:\n\nMy problem with this is that in Appendix of Shadow of the Claw, Wolfe \nis acting as the translator rather than the writer himself. He only \nknows the facts provided by Severian, and if Destriers were to have 8 \nlegs it may be something he were to take for granted, as for him it \nwould be commonplace and known by nearly all; and therefore fail to \nmention. With animals throughout the books he rarely describes them in \ndepth, merely by name as he assumes we would know what they are. I \nfeel this could be another such case, or maybe merely something Gene \nWolfe decided to elaborate on later in another series as nothing \ncontradicts it in the original text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My objection is that down this road lies the Vernor Vinge madness of the \ncheery little hobbit-type aliens with the gootfy names actually\nturning out to be GROTESQUE SPACE SPIDERS.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<393591.68464.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-01-12T04:46:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie, a Destrier?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 1/11/10, Tom Hopkins wrote:\nMy problem with this is that in\nAppendix of Shadow of the\nClaw, Wolfe is acting as the translator rather than the\nwriter himself. He only\nknows the facts provided by Severian, and if Destriers were\nto have 8 legs it\nmay be something he were to take for granted, as for him it\nwould be\ncommonplace and known by nearly all; and therefore fail to\nmention." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Wolfe is trying to give a consistent\npicture of not knowing anything other than what's in\nSeverian's manuscript. For one thing, how did he learn\nthe language? For another, there are the comments at\nthe end of the Appendix to /Shadow/ about collectors\nwho have let him see artifacts and people who have let\nhim visit \"the era's few extant buildings\".\n\nOf course this contradicts the idea that Sev's universe\nis an earlier cycle of ours, and the other three\nappendices seem to imply that \"the manuscripts\" are\nthe only source of knowledge. Anyway, the picture\nis inconsistent, and Wolfe may have changed his mind\nat some point.\n\nOf course we still have the right to picture destriers\nas having eight legs without Wolfe's knowing it--in\nwhich case does /he/ know whether they're related to\nhuses? As you say below, this could be something he\nthought of later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With\nanimals throughout the books he rarely describes them in\ndepth, merely by name\nas he assumes we would know what they are. I feel this\ncould be another such\ncase, or maybe merely something Gene Wolfe decided to\nelaborate on later in\nanother series as nothing contradicts it in the original\ntext. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }