{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5541", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5541, "subject": "Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "messages": 22, "voices": 9, "first": "2010-01-21T18:42:54+00:00", "last": "2010-01-28T23:05:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-01-21T18:42:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished Soldier in the Mist.\n\nWhat a book! I'm sure I've barely begun to make sense of it's puzzles. \nHere are my first impressions, for whatever they might be worth. (Avast,\nthar be spoilers ahead!)\n\nOn a thematic level, the novel is dealing with notions of Self, Memory,\nand how those are shaped by historical texts and witnesses. Latro, an\namnesiac who has only 12 hours of short term memory, has nothing to tell\nhim who he is or where he came from besides a fragmented journal of what\nhe previously witnessed as well as the accounts of those witnesses he\nfinds around him. His predicament seems to be the human condition writ\nsmall. For what does any human culture know about itself? What do we\nknow of our culture? We know what was written down previously in\nhistorical documents, and we know what the elders — who were witness to\nsome portion of history — tell us. Beyond that is inference from what we\nsee around us. Furthermore, what can we trust of any of it? While each\nperson usually has to assemble these things once to get there bearings in\nlife, Latro has to do this daily.\n\nAnother important concept is Anamnesis, literally the \"loss of\nforgetfulness\". Most people with any part of wisdom will concur that\nlife's most important lessons, upon \"learning them\" seem like memories. \nWe often just \"know\" something is right, because it awakens what feels\nlike an ancient or eternal strand of wisdom in ourselves. This is known\nby the Greek philosophers as Anamnesis. Latro, while forgetful, remembers\nvarious things through the novel. He has flashbacks of leading a battle\n(seemingly the Battle of Thermopylae, seemingly as a general or commander\nin the Persian army). He remembers strategy and heroic skills of warfare,\nand he senses some things are very close to home. When he gets a tall\ncapped foreign helmet, it seems to have been made for him. When he sees a\nstaff with an eagle, he is heartsick. Through these spontaneous memories,\nas well as his consultation of his diary, Latro is constantly trying to\nlose his forgetfulness. The novel's narrative style also creates this\nfeeling of anamnesis. With all of the names in translation, and places\nand objects being simply described, the entire book feels like a deja-vu.\nScenes have a slippery familiarity to them. You read a scene and you\nthink, \"I must know this place from historical ruins.\" \"I've seen this\nstatue he's describing in a museum.\" or perhaps \"I know this ghost king\nfrom a movie, he had great abs!\"\n\nIt seems Latro is an early Roman. He's in the Persian army at the\nbeginning and end of Soldier of Mist, and he seems at home in it, though\nhe is not Persian. The eagle staff mentioned makes one think of the Roman\nSPQR staff. Perhaps that is why he is struck by the sight of it.\n\nWhy Latro is so favored by the gods is not clear to me, nor is why he can\ntouch the Gods and make them visible to others. (I'm certainly not well\nversed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses) He seems to be favored\nat first by The Shining One (Apollo), but most of his interactions are\nwith The Maiden Kore (Persephone) and The Grain Goddes/Mother Ge\n(Demeter), who seem to help him along. One of his companions, known as\nEurykles the Necromancer, The Milesian, and Drakaina, seems at first to be\na trifling sorcerer, then a spy for The Great King (Xerxes), and an evil\nGorgon-esque snake woman. (he/she is loyal to the Triple Goddess. is this\nDemeter, or another Triple Goddess? I'd guess NOT Demeter, because a wolf\nkills her, and wolfs are Demeter's) At the death of Drakaina, (at the\njaws of a werewolf) a snake leaves her body and the dying body claims to\nbe Eurykles again, which seems to imply that a snake goddess was 'riding'\nhim/her as the gods do in The Long Sun series. Drakaina seems to help the\nSpartan Regent Pausanius in his plans, which involve aligning Greece with\nPersia, with Sparta as it's favored city. According to a bit of research,\nthe real Pausanius was accused of doing just that. Looking back, I can't\nfind any point where Eurykles was changed into the snake woman, so I'm\nguessing that this is part of his/her nature from the first meeting.\n\nThe werewolf thread is strange. Early on, the bowman Oior (in Hyperiades\nentourage) confides in him about the Neurians, who turn to wolfs. He\nclaims they are the enemy of his people, and that one is in their\nentourage. He asks Latro to kill the suspect, and Latro does when he is\nattacked by another bowman. However, at the end of the book, the Werewolf\nthat kills Drakaina uses Oior's code \"More than brothers, though I die\" \nSo Oior was actually a werewolf and Latro is connected to him by this oath\nof brotherhood, as well as the implication about the tall caps of the\nbowmen are like the helmet that seems tailored for Latro. The bowmen are\nalso not Hellenes, like Latro.\n\nI'm assuming all of Latro's companions are significant beyond their\nsurface details. Why is \"The Black Man\" so loyal? Why is Io (the only\ncharacter given an actual Goddesses name, unless I'm mistaken) able to\nhold her own against Drakaina's malice?\n\nAt the end of the novel, or first scroll, someone is approaching Latro,\ncalling him Lucius in his own tongue. We're left with the impression that\nhe's finally been delivered to his friends, as promised by Demeter." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-21T21:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:42:54 -0500\nFrom: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nTo: Urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)\n\nIt seems Latro is an early Roman. He's in the Persian army at the\nbeginning and end of Soldier of Mist, and he seems at home in it, though\nhe is not Persian. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNo problem there, he's a mercenary. Persians used plenty of them, usually greeks, but it's not far-fetched to imagine an Italian contingent in he's army." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The eagle staff mentioned makes one think of the Roman\nSPQR staff. Perhaps that is why he is struck by the sight of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThis is one of those cases in which Wolfe makes a mistake. The Eagle as a symbolic Roman staff-motif was introduced by Marius late in the 2nd Century BC. At the time this novel takes place there were no Roman staffs with eagles on them.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-01-21T23:00:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems Latro is an early Roman. He's in the Persian army at the\nbeginning and end of Soldier of Mist, and he seems at home in it, though\nhe is not Persian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No problem there, he's a mercenary. Persians used plenty of them, usually\ngreeks, but it's not far-fetched to imagine an Italian contingent in he's\narmy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. I didn't mean to imply it's weird. just another layer onto the\n\"stranger in a strange land feeling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The eagle staff mentioned makes one think of the Roman\nSPQR staff. Perhaps that is why he is struck by the sight of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is one of those cases in which Wolfe makes a mistake. The Eagle as a\nsymbolic Roman staff-motif was introduced by Marius late in the 2nd\nCentury BC. At the time this novel takes place there were no Roman staffs\nwith eagles on them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that I might be reaching with that. I wonder if it's safe to\ncall it Wolfe's mistake. Perhaps I'm just seeing that symbol because I'm\nfamiliar with it. Perhaps there are other eagle staffs that predate it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-21T23:58:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting, that big about anamnesis.\nThere were thriving Greek colonies on the Italian peninsula, which\nexplains Latro’s knowledge of the language and aspects of Greek\nculture. If there’s a deficit in the story, its that Latro’s knowledge\nof Spartan’s seems secondhand. I think the colonies closest to Rome\nwere Spartan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why Latro is so favored by the gods is not clear to me, nor is why he can\ntouch the Gods and make them visible to others. (I'm certainly not well\nversed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he’s not merely *favored* by the Gods. He’s cursed by Demeter\nbecause his part of the Persian army desecrated the grove near her\nTemple. This IIRC was listed as a reason for the Persian’s defeat,\nparticularly by the Spartan 300 (where Latro was wounded). But in\nWolfian fashion, to be cursed by the gods is also to be blessed by\nthem that is, in both cases one is merely touched by them. This is\nquite Lupine. From his other novels, we're already used to\n\"enlightened\" being the same as \"insane\". Prophets are insane until\ntheir prophecies come true.\n\nHaving been touched by a god, he has become a Mediator between god and\nman. He is both mundane and divine. So he can return the favor. He can\ntouch the divine and make it mundane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Looking back, I can't\nfind any point where Eurykles was changed into the snake woman, so I'm\nguessing that this is part of his/her nature from the first meeting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um no. That snake we saw leave Eurykles’s body was the little snake\nthat Hekate (the black goddess with the dogs) put into his drink.\nLatro can see him slowly change first into an ugly woman with stubble\non her chin, then as a beautiful woman wearing a snake belt. But to\neveryone else, it is just Eurykles in drag, until at one point Latro\nkiss her. This causes his divine nature to become \"real\", and Eurykles\nbecomes the beautiful woman he already was...but no one could see it\nbefore.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<850d3b964d94a8891dd5d280e2cdea40.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-01-22T17:09:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting, that big about anamnesis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm curious to see how it develops in the other novels, if at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Looking back, I can't\nfind any point where Eurykles was changed into the snake woman, so I'm\nguessing that this is part of his/her nature from the first meeting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um\nno. That snake we saw leave Eurykles’s body was the little snake\nthat Hekate (the black goddess with the dogs) put into his drink.\nLatro can see him slowly change\nfirst into an ugly woman with stubble\non her chin, then as a beautiful woman wearing a snake belt. But to\neveryone else, it is just Eurykles in drag, until at one point Latro\nkiss her. This causes his divine nature to become \"real\", and Eurykles\nbecomes the beautiful woman he already was...but no one could see it\nbefore.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, thanks for that.you're absolutely right. I somehow forgot about that\npart. I blame my short, fragmented reading bursts and addled memory\nbanks... I went back and reread the Woman at the Crossroads chapter. How\ncould I forget that? there's an illustration in there..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B59DD70.4020007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-01-22T17:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/21/2010 12:42 PM, sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:\nI'm assuming all of Latro's companions are significant beyond their\nsurface details. Why is \"The Black Man\" so loyal? Why is Io (the only\ncharacter given an actual Goddesses name, unless I'm mistaken) able to\nhold her own against Drakaina's malice?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am thinking \"The Black Man\" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten \nhis tribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on \nhis race, and also because Latro is even more of an outsider and \nvulnerable to exploitation than he.\n\nIo was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised \nas a heifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, \nat least not until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with \nthe Io of myth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their flight, \nsimilar to the heifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B59DD7B.9070208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-01-22T17:16:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/21/2010 12:42 PM, sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:\nI'm assuming all of Latro's companions are significant beyond their\nsurface details. Why is \"The Black Man\" so loyal? Why is Io (the only\ncharacter given an actual Goddesses name, unless I'm mistaken) able to\nhold her own against Drakaina's malice?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am thinking \"The Black Man\" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten \nhis tribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on \nhis race, and also because Latro is even more of an outsider and \nvulnerable to exploitation than he.\n\nIo was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised \nas a heifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, \nat least not until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with \nthe Io of myth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their trek, \nsimilar to the heifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-22T22:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<4B59DD7B.9070208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am thinking \"The Black Man\" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten his\ntribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on his race,\nand also because Latro is even more of an outsider and vulnerable to\nexploitation than he." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but Latro gathers followers and admirers pretty quickly. We\ndon't know how they met because Latro didn't write it down before he\nforgot the event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Io was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised as a\nheifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, at least\nnot until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with the Io of\nmyth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their trek, similar to the\nheifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't know if she was mortal. IIRC she was a nymph, a daughter\nof a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14bd795b9e499ed2f567e15a0a5ae39a.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-01-22T23:33:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am thinking \"The Black Man\" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten\nhis\ntribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on his\nrace,\nand also because Latro is even more of an outsider and vulnerable to\nexploitation than he." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, but Latro gathers followers and admirers pretty quickly. We\ndon't know how they met because Latro didn't write it down before he\nforgot the event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Io was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised\nas a\nheifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, at\nleast\nnot until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with the Io\nof\nmyth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their trek, similar to\nthe\nheifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't know if she was mortal. IIRC she was a nymph, a daughter\nof a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I had read as much. Also, isn't there a moon named Io in our\nsolar system. don't planets and moons only get deity names?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4035.67.142.130.19.1264204204.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-01-22T23:50:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<14bd795b9e499ed2f567e15a0a5ae39a.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Io is a moon of Jupiter. Jupiter's moons are named after Jupiter's\ngirlfriends (and one boyfriend).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am thinking \"The Black Man\" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten\nhis\ntribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on his\nrace,\nand also because Latro is even more of an outsider and vulnerable to\nexploitation than he." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps, but Latro gathers followers and admirers pretty quickly. We\ndon't know how they met because Latro didn't write it down before he\nforgot the event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Io was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised\nas a\nheifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, at\nleast\nnot until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with the Io\nof\nmyth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their trek, similar to\nthe\nheifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I don't know if she was mortal. IIRC she was a nymph, a daughter\nof a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I had read as much. Also, isn't there a moon named Io in our\nsolar system. don't planets and moons only get deity names?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B5A5C56.8020802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-01-23T02:17:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<4035.67.142.130.19.1264204204.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Io is a moon of Jupiter. Jupiter's moons are named after Jupiter's\ngirlfriends (and one boyfriend).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lo and behold, Ganymede pops up again. :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8c82a0aa34f96881ccf68d37d42e0d5e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-01-23T03:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<14bd795b9e499ed2f567e15a0a5ae39a.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I don't know if she was mortal. IIRC she was a nymph, a daughter\nof a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Twister_ aside, I don't think she is intended to be the same cow that\nleapt over the moon. She had to run awfully far for refuge for a river\nnymph, across the Bosphorous and all the places called \"Ionian\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I had read as much. Also, isn't there a moon named Io in our\nsolar system. don't planets and moons only get deity names?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In ancient times, but the Jovian moons were only discovered in 1610." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0B3900A129144506BCDB37F5CCCC2200@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-23T20:06:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<8c82a0aa34f96881ccf68d37d42e0d5e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I don't know if she was mortal. IIRC she was a nymph, a daughter\nof a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Twister_ aside, I don't think she is intended to be the same cow that\nleapt over the moon. She had to run awfully far for refuge for a river\nnymph, across the Bosphorous and all the places called \"Ionian\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, but I think there is an Io connection (maybe lots for all I know).\nThat fountain Latro comes to before they take him to Apollo's temple is \nconnected to the story of Cadmus, the founder of Thebes. Cadmus intending to \nsacrifice a COW. He sent some men to that fountain but there was a huge \nserpent there (the son of Apollo) which killed the men who went there to \nfetch water. Lots more happens, but they never get around to offering that \ncow for all I know.\n\nIn SotM, Io is being offered at the temple of Apollo, but the pythoness \nstarts talking and, next thing you know, Io is on the road with Latro.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2F1FC6DA6D01485BBE4701AEF23EBEC1@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-23T20:28:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<0B3900A129144506BCDB37F5CCCC2200@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just looked up the story. The serpent was the son of Ares. I guess that \nmakes Latro the dragon.\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, but I think there is an Io connection (maybe lots for all I \nknow).\nThat fountain Latro comes to before they take him to Apollo's temple is \nconnected to the story of Cadmus, the founder of Thebes. Cadmus intending \nto sacrifice a COW. He sent some men to that fountain but there was a huge \nserpent there (the son of Apollo) which killed the men who went there to \nfetch water. Lots more happens, but they never get around to offering that \ncow for all I know.\n\nIn SotM, Io is being offered at the temple of Apollo, but the pythoness \nstarts talking and, next thing you know, Io is on the road with Latro.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9898.56609.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-01-24T06:20:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Birthday tribute?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has there been any progress on some sort of amateur\nFestschrift for Gene Wolfe's 80th birthday? That\ndiscussion last year prompted me to write a narrative\npoem with connections to what I enjoy in his work. I'm\nfinally done with the first draft. Is there any reason\nfor me to save it for May 2011?\n\nAlso, if anyone is interested in workshopping the poem\nor just saying what worked and what didn't, I'm always\ngrateful for that kind of thing, and I could e-mail it\nto a few people. (I don't want too many people to see\nthe first draft or see the poem before the person it's\ndedicated to.) It's somewhat over 100 lines, and\nreaders have to be able to stand exact rhyme and\nsometimes rather rough iambic pentameter.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-01-26T22:35:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why Latro is so favored by the gods is not clear to me, nor is why he\ncan\ntouch the Gods and make them visible to others. (I'm certainly not well\nversed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he’s not merely *favored* by the Gods. He’s cursed by Demeter\nbecause his part of the Persian army desecrated the grove near her\nTemple. This IIRC was listed as a reason for the Persian’s defeat,\nparticularly by the Spartan 300 (where Latro was wounded)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I vaguely remember something about a desecrated grove. Do you remember\nwhat scene or chapter that was.\nthanks. ~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<222415.83388.qm@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2010-01-27T17:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 5:35 PM\nWhy Latro is so favored by the gods is not clear to me, nor is why he\ncan\ntouch the Gods and make them visible to others. (I'm certainly not well\nversed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he’s not merely *favored* by the Gods. He’s cursed by Demeter\nbecause his part of the Persian army desecrated the grove near her\nTemple. This IIRC was listed as a reason for the Persian’s defeat,\nparticularly by the Spartan 300 (where Latro was wounded)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I vaguely remember something about a desecrated grove. Do you remember\nwhat scene or chapter that was.\nthanks. ~witz\n\n\n\nAt the beginning of Chapter 1, Latro is told that he had been wounded \"near the shrine of the Earth Mother, where the Great King's army fought the army of?Thought and the Rope Makers.\"\nI don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration of the grove, but Herodotus does. — The Persian navy sailed to the sanctuary of Demeter. ?\"There they beached their ships. ?They cut down cultivated trees, surrounded the ships with a stockade of stone and wood, and fixed stakes in the ground around the stockade.\" ? ?(The Histories, trans Robin Waterfield, Oxford World's Classics, p. 580.)\n\nBest wishes,Jack" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-01-28T00:55:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<222415.83388.qm@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 5:35 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why Latro is so favored by the gods is not clear to me, nor is why he\ncan\ntouch the Gods and make them visible to others. — (I'm certainly not\nwell\nversed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, he???s not merely *favored* by the Gods. He???s cursed by Demeter\nbecause his part of the Persian army desecrated the grove near her\nTemple. This IIRC was listed as a reason for the Persian???s defeat,\nparticularly by the Spartan 300 (where Latro was wounded)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I vaguely remember something about a desecrated grove. Do you remember\nwhat scene or chapter that was.\nthanks. ~witz\n\n\n\nAt the beginning of Chapter 1, Latro is told that he had been wounded\n\"near the shrine of the Earth Mother, where the Great King's army fought\nthe army of??Thought and the Rope Makers.\"\nI don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration of the\ngrove, but Herodotus does. — The Persian navy sailed to the sanctuary of\nDemeter. ??\"There they beached their ships. ??They cut down cultivated\ntrees, surrounded the ships with a stockade of stone and wood, and fixed\nstakes in the ground around the stockade.\" ?? ??(The Histories, trans\nRobin Waterfield, Oxford World's Classics, p. 580.)\n\nBest wishes,Jack" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Jack.\nThis makes me curious about Herodotus. I've never read The Histories. \nCrap, I have to admit having never even read Homer. Better get cracking.\n~witz\nsent from my iPad in the future" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B61382B.3060709@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-01-28T07:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<222415.83388.qm@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/27/2010 11:46 AM, John Smith wrote:\n At the beginning of Chapter 1, Latro is told that he had been\n wounded \"near the shrine of the Earth Mother, where the Great King's\n army fought the army of Thought and the Rope Makers.\"\n\n I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration of the\n grove, but Herodotus does. The Persian navy sailed to the sanctuary\n of Demeter. \"There they beached their ships. They cut down\n cultivated trees, surrounded the ships with a stockade of stone and\n wood, and fixed stakes in the ground around the stockade.\" /(The\n Histories/, trans Robin Waterfield, Oxford World's Classics, p. 580.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Wolfe definitely loves his Herodotus; if you look at his portrait in \n_The Faces of Science Fiction_, it is perhaps the most prominently \ndisplayed volume in his basement library." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-28T22:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<222415.83388.qm@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration\nof the grove, but Herodotus does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I couldn't tell you exactly where, but I'm pretty sure Latro is told that it\nwas Demeter who struck him.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<43960c851001281444q1e9b9acaud060c1a2ea3affc3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-28T22:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the Maiden (ie, Persephone) spells this out to Latro when he\ndescends below the floor of the temple. But it is never, I think, made\nclear how Latro could make amends for the desecration; certainly he is still\ncursed (unable to remember) in *Soldier of Sidon, *where he is manipulated\nby the Egyptian dieties as coldly as by the Greek ones.\n\nHas Wolfe ever hinted at a fourth novel in the sequence, aside from\ncomplaining that he is probably too old (which we shouldn't take at face\nvalue, I suspect).\n\nRussell Wodell\n\n\n2010/1/28 James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration\nof the grove, but Herodotus does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I couldn't tell you exactly where, but I'm pretty sure Latro is told that\nit was Demeter who struck him.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8382.67.142.130.18.1264719943.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-01-28T23:05:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<43960c851001281444q1e9b9acaud060c1a2ea3affc3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was some momentum behind the first and second novels, but when there\nwas no market for the third, he went on to other projects, and if he lost\nthe thread of where he was going (so to speak) no one should be very\nsurprised.\n\nWhen, years later, there was a market for the third novel, it is unlikely\nin the extreme (in my opinion) that the third novel he wrote then\nresembles the third novel he would have written originally, except perhaps\nin broad outline.\n\nI do know that his original intent was to take Latro around the World, and\ngive voice to his picture of the ancient World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe the Maiden (ie, Persephone) spells this out to Latro when he\ndescends below the floor of the temple. But it is never, I think, made\nclear how Latro could make amends for the desecration; certainly he is\nstill\ncursed (unable to remember) in *Soldier of Sidon, *where he is manipulated\nby the Egyptian dieties as coldly as by the Greek ones.\n\nHas Wolfe ever hinted at a fourth novel in the sequence, aside from\ncomplaining that he is probably too old (which we shouldn't take at face\nvalue, I suspect).\n\nRussell Wodell\n\n\n2010/1/28 James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration\nof the grove, but Herodotus does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I couldn't tell you exactly where, but I'm pretty sure Latro is told\nthat\nit was Demeter who struck him.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }