Subject: (urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)

From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:42:54 +0000

I just finished Soldier in the Mist.

What a book!  I'm sure I've barely begun to make sense of it's puzzles. 
Here are my first impressions, for whatever they might be worth. (Avast,
thar be spoilers ahead!)

On a thematic level, the novel is dealing with notions of Self, Memory,
and how those are shaped by historical texts and witnesses.  Latro, an
amnesiac who has only 12 hours of short term memory, has nothing to tell
him who he is or where he came from besides a fragmented journal of what
he previously witnessed as well as the accounts of those witnesses he
finds around him.  His predicament seems to be the human condition writ
small.  For what does any human culture know about itself?  What do we
know of our culture? We know what was written down previously in
historical documents, and we know what the elders — who were witness to
some portion of history — tell us.  Beyond that is inference from what we
see around us.  Furthermore, what can we trust of any of it? While each
person usually has to assemble these things once to get there bearings in
life, Latro has to do this daily.

Another important concept is Anamnesis, literally the "loss of
forgetfulness".  Most people with any part of wisdom will concur that
life's most important lessons, upon "learning them" seem like memories. 
We often just "know" something is right, because it awakens what feels
like an ancient or eternal strand of wisdom in ourselves.  This is known
by the Greek philosophers as Anamnesis.  Latro, while forgetful, remembers
various things through the novel.  He has flashbacks of leading a battle
(seemingly the Battle of Thermopylae, seemingly as a general or commander
in the Persian army).  He remembers strategy and heroic skills of warfare,
and he senses some things are very close to home. When he gets a tall
capped foreign helmet, it seems to have been made for him. When he sees a
staff with an eagle, he is heartsick.  Through these spontaneous memories,
as well as his consultation of his diary, Latro is constantly trying to
lose his forgetfulness.  The novel's narrative style also creates this
feeling of anamnesis.  With all of the names in translation, and places
and objects being simply described, the entire book feels like a deja-vu.
Scenes have a slippery familiarity to them. You read a scene and you
think, "I must know this place from historical ruins." "I've seen this
statue he's describing in a museum." or perhaps "I know this ghost king
from a movie, he had great abs!"

It seems Latro is an early Roman.  He's in the Persian army at the
beginning and end of Soldier of Mist, and he seems at home in it, though
he is not Persian.  The eagle staff mentioned makes one think of the Roman
SPQR staff.  Perhaps that is why he is struck by the sight of it.

Why Latro is so favored by the gods is not clear to me, nor is why he can
touch the Gods and make them visible to others.  (I'm certainly not well
versed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses) He seems to be favored
at first by The Shining One (Apollo), but most of his interactions are
with The Maiden Kore (Persephone) and The Grain Goddes/Mother Ge
(Demeter), who seem to help him along.   One of his companions, known as
Eurykles the Necromancer, The Milesian, and Drakaina, seems at first to be
a trifling sorcerer, then a spy for The Great King (Xerxes), and an evil
Gorgon-esque snake woman. (he/she is loyal to the Triple Goddess. is this
Demeter, or another Triple Goddess? I'd guess NOT Demeter, because a wolf
kills her, and wolfs are Demeter's)  At the death of Drakaina, (at the
jaws of a werewolf) a snake leaves her body and the dying body claims to
be Eurykles again, which seems to imply that a snake goddess was 'riding'
him/her as the gods do in The Long Sun series.  Drakaina seems to help the
Spartan Regent Pausanius in his plans, which involve aligning Greece with
Persia, with Sparta as it's favored city.  According to a bit of research,
the real Pausanius was accused of doing just that.  Looking back, I can't
find any point where Eurykles was changed into the snake woman, so I'm
guessing that this is part of his/her nature from the first meeting.

The werewolf thread is strange.  Early on, the bowman Oior (in Hyperiades
entourage) confides in him about the Neurians, who turn to wolfs. He
claims they are the enemy of his people, and that one is in their
entourage.  He asks Latro to kill the suspect, and Latro does when he is
attacked by another bowman.  However, at the end of the book, the Werewolf
that kills Drakaina uses Oior's code "More than brothers, though I die"  
So Oior was actually a werewolf and Latro is connected to him by this oath
of brotherhood, as well as the implication about the tall caps of the
bowmen are like the helmet that seems tailored for Latro.  The bowmen are
also not Hellenes, like Latro.

I'm assuming all of Latro's companions are significant beyond their
surface details.  Why is "The Black Man" so loyal? Why is Io (the only
character given an actual Goddesses name, unless I'm mistaken) able to
hold her own against Drakaina's malice?

At the end of the novel, or first scroll, someone is approaching Latro,
calling him Lucius in his own tongue.  We're left with the impression that
he's finally been delivered to his friends, as promised by Demeter.

---

From: Pedro Pereira <domus_artemis at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:19:30 +0000

> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:42:54 -0500
> From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
> To: Urth at urth.net
> Subject: (urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)
> 
> he is not Persian. 

No problem there, he's a mercenary. Persians used plenty of them, usually greeks, but it's not far-fetched to imagine an Italian contingent in he's army.

>The eagle staff mentioned makes one think of the Roman

This is one of those cases in which Wolfe makes a mistake. The Eagle as a symbolic Roman staff-motif was introduced by Marius late in the 2nd Century BC. At the time this novel takes place there were no Roman staffs with eagles on them.
 		 	   		  
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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 23:00:19 +0000

> No problem there, he's a mercenary. Persians used plenty of them, usually
> greeks, but it's not far-fetched to imagine an Italian contingent in he's
> army.
>

Sure. I didn't mean to imply it's weird. just another layer onto the
"stranger in a strange land feeling.

> This is one of those cases in which Wolfe makes a mistake. The Eagle as a
> symbolic Roman staff-motif was introduced by Marius late in the 2nd
> Century BC. At the time this novel takes place there were no Roman staffs
> with eagles on them.
>

I thought that I might be reaching with that. I wonder if it's safe to
call it Wolfe's mistake. Perhaps I'm just seeing that symbol because I'm
familiar with it. Perhaps there are other eagle staffs that predate it.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 23:58:55 +0000

Interesting, that big about anamnesis.
There were thriving Greek colonies on the Italian peninsula, which
explains Latro’s knowledge of the language and aspects of Greek
culture. If there’s a deficit in the story, its that Latro’s knowledge
of Spartan’s seems secondhand. I think the colonies closest to Rome
were Spartan.

>versed in Greek Myth, so these are my best guesses)

Well, he’s not merely *favored* by the Gods. He’s cursed by Demeter
because his part of the Persian army desecrated the grove near her
Temple. This IIRC was listed as a reason for the Persian’s defeat,
particularly by the Spartan 300 (where Latro was wounded). But in
Wolfian fashion, to be cursed by the gods is also to be blessed by
them that is, in both cases one is merely touched by them. This is
quite Lupine. From his other novels, we're already used to
"enlightened" being the same as "insane". Prophets are insane until
their prophecies come true.

Having been touched by a god, he has become a Mediator between god and
man. He is both mundane and divine. So he can return the favor. He can
touch the divine and make it mundane.

> Looking back, I can't

Um no. That snake we saw leave Eurykles’s body was the little snake
that Hekate (the black goddess with the dogs) put into his drink.
Latro can see him slowly change first into an ugly woman with stubble
on her chin, then as a beautiful woman wearing a snake belt. But to
everyone else, it is just Eurykles in drag, until at one point Latro
kiss her. This causes his divine nature to become "real", and Eurykles
becomes the beautiful woman he already was...but no one could see it
before.

J.

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:09:06 +0000

> Interesting, that big about anamnesis.

I'm curious to see how it develops in the other novels, if at all.

> Um
no. That snake we saw leave Eurykles’s body was the little snake
> becomes the beautiful woman he already was...but no one could see it

Ah, thanks for that.you're absolutely right. I somehow forgot about that
part. I blame my short, fragmented reading bursts and addled memory
banks... I went back and reread the Woman at the Crossroads chapter. How
could I forget that? there's an illustration in there...

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:16:32 +0000

> hold her own against Drakaina's malice?

I am thinking "The Black Man" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten 
his tribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on 
his race, and also because Latro is even more of an outsider and 
vulnerable to exploitation than he.

Io was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised 
as a heifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, 
at least not until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with 
the Io of myth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their flight, 
similar to the heifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:16:43 +0000

the Io of myth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their trek,

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:09:08 +0000

> I am thinking "The Black Man" favors Latro because Latro has forgotten his
> tribalism and doesn't think to treat him like an outsider based on his race,
> and also because Latro is even more of an outsider and vulnerable to
> exploitation than he.

Perhaps, but Latro gathers followers and admirers pretty quickly. We
don't know how they met because Latro didn't write it down before he
forgot the event.

> Io was the mortal priestess of Hera seduced by Zerus and then disguised as a
> heifer, etc. Not a goddess, as she was not placed in the heavens, at least
> not until Galilean times. I don't see much of a connection with the Io of
> myth, except the girl is a sort of mascot during their trek, similar to the
> heifer's flight from Hera's stinging gadfly

Well, I don't know if she was mortal. IIRC she was a nymph, a daughter
of a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon.

J.

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 23:33:15 +0000

>> his
>> as a

I thought I had read as much. Also, isn't there a moon named Io in our
solar system. don't planets and moons only get deity names?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 23:50:04 +0000

Io is a moon of Jupiter. Jupiter's moons are named after Jupiter's
girlfriends (and one boyfriend).

.

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---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 02:17:58 +0000

> girlfriends (and one boyfriend).
Lo and behold, Ganymede pops up again. :)

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:27:46 +0000

>> of a river god. And she is typically associated with the Moon.

_Twister_ aside, I don't think she is intended to be the same cow that
leapt over the moon. She had to run awfully far for refuge for a river
nymph, across the Bosphorous and all the places called "Ionian".

> solar system. don't planets and moons only get deity names?

In ancient times, but the Jovian moons were only discovered in 1610.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:06:48 +0000

> nymph, across the Bosphorous and all the places called "Ionian".

I agree, but I think there is an Io connection (maybe lots for all I know).
That fountain Latro comes to before they take him to Apollo's temple is 
connected to the story of Cadmus, the founder of Thebes. Cadmus intending to 
sacrifice a COW. He sent some men to that fountain but there was a huge 
serpent there (the son of Apollo) which killed the men who went there to 
fetch water. Lots more happens, but they never get around to offering that 
cow for all I know.

In SotM, Io is being offered at the temple of Apollo, but the pythoness 
starts talking and, next thing you know, Io is on the road with Latro.

J.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:28:45 +0000

I just looked up the story. The serpent was the son of Ares. I guess that 
makes Latro the dragon.
J.

> connected to the story of Cadmus, the founder of Thebes. Cadmus intending 
> to sacrifice a COW. He sent some men to that fountain but there was a huge

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:20:03 +0000

Has there been any progress on some sort of amateur
Festschrift for Gene Wolfe's 80th birthday?  That
discussion last year prompted me to write a narrative
poem with connections to what I enjoy in his work.  I'm
finally done with the first draft.  Is there any reason
for me to save it for May 2011?

Also, if anyone is interested in workshopping the poem
or just saying what worked and what didn't, I'm always
grateful for that kind of thing, and I could e-mail it
to a few people.  (I don't want too many people to see
the first draft or see the poem before the person it's
dedicated to.)  It's somewhat over 100 lines, and
readers have to be able to stand exact rhyme and
sometimes rather rough iambic pentameter.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:35:23 +0000

> particularly by the Spartan 300 (where Latro was wounded).

I vaguely remember something about a desecrated grove. Do you remember
what scene or chapter that was.
thanks. ~witz

---

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:46:41 +0000

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Subject: Re: (urth) Soldier Of The Mist: first reading (mit spoilers)
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 5:35 PM

At the beginning of Chapter 1, Latro is told that he had been wounded "near the shrine of the Earth Mother, where the Great King's army fought the army of?Thought and the Rope Makers."
I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration of the grove, but Herodotus does. — The Persian navy sailed to the sanctuary of Demeter. ?"There they beached their ships. ?They cut down cultivated trees, surrounded the ships with a stockade of stone and wood, and fixed stakes in the ground around the stockade." ? ?(The Histories, trans Robin Waterfield, Oxford World's Classics, p. 580.)

Best wishes,Jack

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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:55:20 +0000

>>>touch the Gods and make them visible to others. — (I'm certainly not
>>> well
>> Well, he???s not merely *favored* by the Gods. He???s cursed by Demeter
>> Temple. This IIRC was listed as a reason for the Persian???s defeat,
> At the beginning of Chapter 1, Latro is told that he had been wounded
> "near the shrine of the Earth Mother, where the Great King's army fought
> the army of??Thought and the Rope Makers."
> I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration of the
> grove, but Herodotus does. — The Persian navy sailed to the sanctuary of
> Demeter. ??"There they beached their ships. ??They cut down cultivated
> trees, surrounded the ships with a stockade of stone and wood, and fixed
> stakes in the ground around the stockade." ?? ??(The Histories, trans
> Robin Waterfield, Oxford World's Classics, p. 580.)
>
> Best wishes,Jack

Thanks Jack.
This makes me curious about Herodotus. I've never read The Histories. 
Crap, I have to admit having never even read Homer.  Better get cracking.
~witz
sent from my iPad in the future

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:09:31 +0000

On 1/27/2010 11:46 AM, John Smith wrote:
>     At the beginning of Chapter 1, Latro is told that he had been
>     wounded "near the shrine of the Earth Mother, where the Great King's
>     army fought the army of Thought and the Rope Makers."
>
>     grove, but Herodotus does. The Persian navy sailed to the sanctuary
>     of Demeter. "There they beached their ships. They cut down
>     cultivated trees, surrounded the ships with a stockade of stone and
>     wood, and fixed stakes in the ground around the stockade." /(The
>     Histories/, trans Robin Waterfield, Oxford World's Classics, p. 580.)

And Wolfe definitely loves his Herodotus; if you look at his portrait in 
_The Faces of Science Fiction_, it is perhaps the most prominently 
displayed volume in his basement library.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:32:11 +0000

> I don't remember if Wolfe says anything about the desecration
> of the grove, but Herodotus does.

I couldn't tell you exactly where, but I'm pretty sure Latro is told that it
was Demeter who struck him.

J.
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From: Russell Wodell <wrustle at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:44:27 +0000

I believe the Maiden (ie, Persephone) spells this out to Latro when he
descends  below the floor of the temple. But it is never, I think, made
clear how Latro could make amends for the desecration; certainly he is still
cursed (unable to remember) in *Soldier of Sidon, *where he is manipulated
by the Egyptian dieties as coldly as by the Greek ones.

Has Wolfe ever hinted at a fourth novel in the sequence, aside from
complaining that he is probably too old (which we shouldn't take at face
value, I suspect).

Russell Wodell

2010/1/28 James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>

> I couldn't tell you exactly where, but I'm pretty sure Latro is told that
> it was Demeter who struck him.
>
> J.
>
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:05:43 +0000

There was some momentum behind the first and second novels, but when there
was no market for the third, he went on to other projects, and if he lost
the thread of where he was going (so to speak) no one should be very
surprised.

When, years later, there was a market for the third novel, it is unlikely
in the extreme (in my opinion) that the third novel he wrote then
resembles the third novel he would have written originally, except perhaps
in broad outline.

I do know that his original intent was to take Latro around the World, and
give voice to his picture of the ancient World.

.