{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5547", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5547, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 65, Issue 6, the fate of Lois", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "2010-02-24T05:21:14+00:00", "last": "2010-02-24T05:21:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<8CC83285172C0C6-18C4-9781@webmail-d021.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "blackwilbo at cs.com", "address": "blackwilbo at cs.com" }, "date": "2010-02-24T05:21:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 65, Issue 6, the fate of Lois", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Peace: While digging in a pit for the treasure, Weer's shovel it's a rock" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and gives off a spark. Lois thinks it's the treasure and pulls her little\n(hidden) pistol. The next thing we learn from Weer is that Lois has left\ntown. Do you believe that? I don't. He buried her in that pit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been looking at Dougherty's telling of the tale of St. Brandon. It's an allegory of relationship of Den and Lois. St. Brandon is Den's good side, the king of the rats is his dark side, and Pussy is Lois. Brandon's ship is the ship of matrimony and signing the ship's articles is the marriage ceremony. They marry, quarrel a lot (Pussy vs. king of the rats) and after 2 or 3 years she leaves him. About 2 weeks after that, he goes to see Louis Gold.\n\nThis is not coming out of thin air. All the other details match up. Verifying that is left as an exercise for the reader.:-)\n\nblackwilbo\n\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-request at lists.urth.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 2:17 pm\nSubject: Urth Digest, Vol 65, Issue 6\n\n\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nr, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nhan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\noday's Topics:\n 1. Re: An Evil Guest: gold hunting (Gwern Branwen)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---------------------------------------------------------------------\nMessage: 1\nate: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:13:06 -0500\nrom: Gwern Branwen \no: The Urth Mailing List \nubject: Re: (urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting\nessage-ID:\n \nontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\nOn Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:27 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nBut we're not given any feeling like 'go there, stay, and shut up'. We\nreally are given the feeling of a not-so-efficient aid agency\npensioning off a worker in a cheap island paradise until he finally\nkicks the bucket:\n\n Neither. Baden is given idea that he is being sent on a particularly\n unpleasant assignment. An assignment he would only take because the other\n choice is firing. The tone of his boss while giving him the assignment is\n pity. And I don't mean pity because he's an alcoholic or had a breakdown,\n whatever it was. I'm mean pity because he's being given the assignment and\n she knows he'll take it.\nIt's pity because she knows he doesn't deserve the job but he's\netting it for old time's sake. Like nepotism. It's not pity like\nending a man off to die. When one does that, one is more serious &\nomber - one doesn't solicitously lean forward and make as if to\nqueeze or hold hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note that Baden's room is essentially free, his board minimal, and he\notherwise isn't a drain on the agency; probably one or two hospital\nstays in the US would exceed the cost of sending and supporting Baden\nthere. Retirees go to tropical 3rd World countries for reasons beyond\nthe weather, y'know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But he's almost certainly not of retirement age, and even Baden thought the\n most reasonable course for dealing with him was termination. Assigning him\n to the island means they still have to pay his salary. Even charity aid\n workers don't live on adjusted per diem. They get full yearly salaries.\n Probably with a bonus for out-of-country service. The idea that an NGO would\n or could maroon an employee to a remote island to avoid medical expenses\n strikes me itself as a plot for a speculative fiction story. So I would have\n expected some exposition to justify it.\nThey'd still have to pay him unless they fired him: \"Permanent sick\neave.\" Sick leaves usually are compensated in some way*, although I\non't know how much they'd have to pay him.If you won't countenance\nutright firing, and he's not bedridden enough to justify sick leave,\nhen you need to find a sinecure for him. A remote island with nothing\nor him to do is perfect.\n* one person tells me they understand in the UK it's something like 6\nonths at full salary, then half-pay afterwards\nHe's told that he is to be on the island alone, and within a couple hours of\n his family arriving on the island, Hanga singles out Baden's wife as a\n future meal. It's hard to ignore the coincidence.\nHold on. This is the second you've said he is ordered to be alone.\nhat is this based on?\nHis boss says 'you will be on your own', but this is a prediction\nbout other agency people, not white people or people in general -\nbviously Rob and the islanders are already there. Nor does he ever\nhink 'The agency won't like Mary coming here, but I sure hope she\noes anyway!'\nAnd Baden is hardly being lassoed by his wife. “There really nothing in the\n story to imply that Baden is a great catch. He doesn't see it that way. The\n picture we get from Baden is that his wife is a forgiving person who is\n staying with him *in spite* of their history.\nShe pressures him with the jeep rental, and then there's the 'Mary\nanted children, so she stopped the pill and did not tell me. That was\nhat she told me when I drove Rob's jeep out to North Point.' line;\nsn't this one of the stereotypical gambits attributed to women”\nBoth examples point to a woman trying to get him to leave with her; as\n civilized Christian woman, no doubt she doesn't want to raise a\namily on the pimply backend of nowhere.\nAs you pointed out, Baden was told that he was to be stationed at the island\n *totally on his own*. If he's being retired, there's no point in that. It's\n presented to him as a tough, perhaps hazardous assignment. That's hardly a\n way to sell a plan to \"pension him off\". If the island was such a cheap\n alternative to paying medical expenses, why would he be the only one the\n Agency would station there? He can't be the only employee who has ever had\n chronic medical expenses. If The Agency had even pro forma duties there, why\n isn't Baden at least going through the motions of doing them, or mentioning\n them.\nHe does complain about their lack: \"All right, I'll keep my eyes open,\nnd maybe someday the Agency will send me someplace where I'm needed.\"\nAnd why would his family want to take him back to civilization when that\n would mean he would have to quit his job? That is, if the job benefits with\n the Agency were so ideal.\nBecause the benefits may be fine for Baden alone, but to raise a\namily with? I recently read a history of the British Raj, and the\nivilians, even though paid very well, with money that went *very* far\nn India, still had financial hardships putting their kids through\nchool and supporting them and often their entirely family way off in\nngland. The USG doesn't pay as well as John Company did. And then\nhere's the location and populace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if hostage, hostage against what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " That's the million dollar question. What exactly is the Agency getting out\n of Baden being there? What are the rules that require he be there alone on\n the island? The Tree Is My Hat and An Evil Guest are both interesting\n introductions to this world. I wish Wolfe had deigned to actually explain\n it.\nThey seem to get nothing out of it beyond shuffling off a burden. What\ns he hostage against? If Hanga saw Baden as a hostage against the USG\nttacking Hanga, or something, then *why on earth* would he make a\nlood oath with Baden? That defeats the entire point! What is a\nostage you have sworn to never hurt or kill? Not a very useful one.\nimilar for a sacrifice.\nOn the other hand, Baden going there for non-Hanga reasons and Hanga\naking a shine to this naive foreigner who is pasty-shark-white makes\nerfect sense with the blood oath." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IIRC, doesn't Reis specifically say he hired Chase a few years ago and\never since Chase has been greedy and sought to extort more money out\nof him? I don't see any reason to disbelieve him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I forgot he said he'd hired him at that dinner with Cassie. There's no more\n reason to believe Reis more than Chase. Cassie doesn't take his words at\n face-value or she would have abandoned Chase. But you're right. It does make\n one wonder why he kept those pictures. It's entirely possible that while\n Reis ended up paying for Chase's services, the two never met. Which\n definitely would suggest that Reis is not above *shading* a story. “I do\n agree that Chase is a prostitute who will do anything for money (ala Sherry\n Gold and Hyacinth).\nReis is probably lying about the extortion part, I agree. That's\nalculated for sympathy, and we have no evidence that Chase actually\nried to extort Reis, do we” But Wolfe's lies usually contain truth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "where's the sacrifice of Reis in Peace or\nTBOTNS? [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A lover killing the sacrificer of the loved\ndoesn't match up\n\n I don't expect you to be persuaded but:\n Peace: While digging in a pit for the treasure, Weer's shovel it's a rock\n and gives off a spark. Lois thinks it's the treasure and pulls her little\n (hidden) pistol. The next thing we learn from Weer is that Lois has left\n town. Do you believe that? I don't. He buried her in that pit.\n TBOTNS: Severian takes Dr. Talos's sword from him (til now concealed in his\n cane) and strides into Baldander's ruined tower to kill him. But the\n antagonist is only over thrown.\n Cassie shooting Kanoa matches up perfectly with these and other instances IF\n you re-assess Kanoa as a more important figure than is immediately apparent.\n Otherwise, the scene has all the elements of the others but is carried out\n \"wrong\".\n\n J.\nBut again, in Peace and TBOTNS it's a duel. Severian against\naldanders, Weer against Lois. There is no third sacrificed party. If\n major piece of the analogy is missing, you can't make any\nnferences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wern\n\n-----------------------------\n_______________________________________________\nrth Mailing List\no post, write urth at urth.net\nubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\nEnd of Urth Digest, Vol 65, Issue 6\n**********************************" } ] } ] }