{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5551", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5551, "subject": "Query", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-03-04T22:10:49+00:00", "last": "2010-03-09T19:53:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-04T22:10:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone else going to be at Comicpalooza?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f1003041412g2de5ff58j2062f503095d8372@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-04T22:12:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doubtful, but is Gene ever coming out to the East Coast for one of these\nthings?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAnyone else going to be at Comicpalooza?\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-04T22:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f1003041412g2de5ff58j2062f503095d8372@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well he was at Balticon last summer IIRC.\n\nIncidentally, I just found Cory Doctorow's post on \"Gene Wolfe's Rules\nfor Writers\"\nhttp://www.boingboing.net/2004/03/03/gene-wolfes-rules-fo.html\n\nCory praise them for their quality and sensibility. These aren't bad,\nbut I could tick off better one's --more practical to a refined\nlevel-- that I've heard at various Wolfe panels. His suggestions\ninvariably make those of other writers sound obvious and fuzzy,\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 4:12 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nDoubtful, but is Gene ever coming out to the East Coast for one of these\nthings?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyone else going to be at Comicpalooza?\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<180006411003051231n147c8efpa4791b6cc600b0d9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bryant", "address": "ajustinbryant at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-05T20:31:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would be interested in reading other such rules - please tick them off!\n\nAndrew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:22 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell he was at Balticon last summer IIRC.\n\nIncidentally, I just found Cory Doctorow's post on \"Gene Wolfe's Rules\nfor Writers\"\nhttp://www.boingboing.net/2004/03/03/gene-wolfes-rules-fo.html\n\nCory praise them for their quality and sensibility. These aren't bad,\nbut I could tick off better one's --more practical to a refined\nlevel-- that I've heard at various Wolfe panels. His suggestions\ninvariably make those of other writers sound obvious and fuzzy,\n\nJ.\n\nOn Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 4:12 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doubtful, but is Gene ever coming out to the East Coast for one of these\nthings?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Anyone else going to be at Comicpalooza?\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-05T21:00:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "<180006411003051231n147c8efpa4791b6cc600b0d9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I posted some before recently but....\n\n1. Plan to write no more than 10 minutes a day, at least at the\nbeginning. If you do that, you will always talk about \"the novel I am\nwriting\" rather than \"the novel I once tried to write.\"\n\n2. When I started writing, I would get up in the moring before\neveryone else and write for an hour, sometimes two. When my wife would\nbring me breakfast, I'd stop. I'd eat, get ready for the day and go to\nwork. I'd come home and play with the kids or whatever, and then I'd\ngo to bed early because I was going to do the whole thing again.\n\n3. Start with the ending of your story and then slowly work backwards\nto how you got there. That way your plot will tend to lead to a\nsatisfactory end. For example, a Cinderella is a poor girl who marries\na prince. How do they meet? Well, maybe he has this shoe and he is\ngoing to marry the girl it fits? Well, why should it fit her? etc.\n\n4. A good villain is someone who is *almost* a hero but falls just\nshort of it. (examples given were Bill Reis and Typhon -- I think Wat\nis also a good example of what he's talking about)\n\n5. If someone asks for advice about being a writer, I always tell them\n\"don't do it\", because if they can be deterred by that, then they\nshouldn't be a writer.\n\n6. You should never read bad reviews if you can't help letting them\naffect you. I read them, but I don't let them have an effect on me or\nmy emotions. But if you can't do that, you should just not read them.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Andrew Bryant wrote:\nI would be interested in reading other such rules - please tick them off!\n\nAndrew\n\nOn Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:22 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well he was at Balticon last summer IIRC.\n\nIncidentally, I just found Cory Doctorow's post on \"Gene Wolfe's Rules\nfor Writers\"\nhttp://www.boingboing.net/2004/03/03/gene-wolfes-rules-fo.html\n\nCory praise them for their quality and sensibility. These aren't bad,\nbut I could tick off better one's --more practical to a refined\nlevel-- that I've heard at various Wolfe panels. His suggestions\ninvariably make those of other writers sound obvious and fuzzy,\n\nJ.\n\nOn Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 4:12 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Doubtful, but is Gene ever coming out to the East Coast for one of these\nthings?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Anyone else going to be at Comicpalooza?\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<513638.99613.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-03-05T21:09:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/5/10, James Wynn wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Start with the ending of your story and then slowly work\nbackwards\nto how you got there. That way your plot will tend to lead\nto a\nsatisfactory end. For example, a Cinderella is a poor girl\nwho marries\na prince. How do they meet? Well, maybe he has this shoe\nand he is\ngoing to marry the girl it fits? Well, why should it fit\nher? etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's interesting because it's exactly what some critics\nand educators on literary fiction tell you not to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. A good villain is someone who is *almost* a hero but\nfalls just\nshort of it. (examples given were Bill Reis and Typhon -- I\nthink Wat\nis also a good example of what he's talking about)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really can't see Bill Reis as a good villain at all.\nFor much of the novel he's not causing or threatening\nany harm. Unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. If someone asks for advice about being a writer, I\nalways tell them\n\"don't do it\", because if they can be deterred by that,\nthen they shouldn't be a writer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nVery Borgesian, I believe.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-05T21:22:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "<513638.99613.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nVery Borgesian, I believe.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan Simmons, in the introduction to the first story in _Prayers to\nBroken Stones_, tells a funny story about Harlan Ellison wherein he\ngives much the same advice." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-05T21:26:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "<513638.99613.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really can't see Bill Reis as a good villain at all.\nFor much of the novel he's not causing or threatening\nany harm. ?Unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's one thing, unsaid, that I picked up emphatically from Wolfe's\npanels last September: He is extremely happy with AEG. Cassie is one\nof his favorite protagonists EVER and Reis is a prime example of what\nWolfe thinks a villain should be. When I brought AEG to him to sign\nand asked him some questions about it, he lit up like a candle.\n\nI am quite certain we are missing a great deal about Reis, Cassie, and\nAEG. I would not mind seeing more stories to flesh out that world.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6898.72.171.0.148.1267827173.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-03-05T22:12:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hear, hear!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I really can't see Bill Reis as a good villain at all.\nFor much of the novel he's not causing or threatening\nany harm. ?Unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's one thing, unsaid, that I picked up emphatically from Wolfe's\npanels last September: He is extremely happy with AEG. Cassie is one\nof his favorite protagonists EVER and Reis is a prime example of what\nWolfe thinks a villain should be. When I brought AEG to him to sign\nand asked him some questions about it, he lit up like a candle.\n\nI am quite certain we are missing a great deal about Reis, Cassie, and\nAEG. I would not mind seeing more stories to flesh out that world.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<382898.46139.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-03-05T22:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/5/10, James Wynn wrote:\nI really can't see Bill Reis as\na good villain at all.\nFor much of the novel he's not causing or threatening\nany harm. ?Unless I'm missing something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's one thing, unsaid, that I picked up emphatically\nfrom Wolfe's\npanels last September: He is extremely happy with AEG.\nCassie is one\nof his favorite protagonists EVER and Reis is a prime\nexample of what\nWolfe thinks a villain should be. When I brought AEG to him\nto sign\nand asked him some questions about it, he lit up like a\ncandle.\n\nI am quite certain we are missing a great deal about Reis,\nCassie, and\nAEG. I would not mind seeing more stories to flesh out that\nworld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting.\n\nI guess Reis does cause Cassie harm by making her fall in\nlove with him, which indirectly leads to very unpleasant\nconsequences for her, including what may be a wasted trip\nto Woldercam. However, that doesn't seem like enough, and\nI agree in hoping we find out or figure out more.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B918C5D.9000507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-03-05T22:57:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "<382898.46139.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which explains a lot of literary fiction ...\n\nI've always followed this particular piece of advice. Some authors talk about letting their characters find their way (Le Guin for example), but that doesn't work for me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 13:09:40 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Query\nMessage-ID: <513638.99613.qm at web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n--- On Fri, 3/5/10, James Wynn wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. Start with the ending of your story and then slowly work\nbackwards\nto how you got there. That way your plot will tend to lead\nto a\nsatisfactory end. For example, a Cinderella is a poor girl\nwho marries\na prince. How do they meet? Well, maybe he has this shoe\nand he is\ngoing to marry the girl it fits? Well, why should it fit\nher? etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThat's interesting because it's exactly what some critics\nand educators on literary fiction tell you not to do." } ] }, { "message_id": "<180006411003091049g58773e33ubf7767a775cf98c0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bryant", "address": "ajustinbryant at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-09T18:49:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for reposting - I missed them the first time. Regarding #2, as\nsomeone who struggles with time management myself, I wonder where he managed\nto fit what must have been a lot of reading in between his sleeping,\nwriting, working, parenting, and eating (among other things) schedule...\n\nAndrew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:00 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I posted some before recently but....\n\n1. Plan to write no more than 10 minutes a day, at least at the\nbeginning. If you do that, you will always talk about \"the novel I am\nwriting\" rather than \"the novel I once tried to write.\"\n\n2. When I started writing, I would get up in the moring before\neveryone else and write for an hour, sometimes two. When my wife would\nbring me breakfast, I'd stop. I'd eat, get ready for the day and go to\nwork. I'd come home and play with the kids or whatever, and then I'd\ngo to bed early because I was going to do the whole thing again.\n\n3. Start with the ending of your story and then slowly work backwards\nto how you got there. That way your plot will tend to lead to a\nsatisfactory end. For example, a Cinderella is a poor girl who marries\na prince. How do they meet? Well, maybe he has this shoe and he is\ngoing to marry the girl it fits? Well, why should it fit her? etc.\n\n4. A good villain is someone who is *almost* a hero but falls just\nshort of it. (examples given were Bill Reis and Typhon -- I think Wat\nis also a good example of what he's talking about)\n\n5. If someone asks for advice about being a writer, I always tell them\n\"don't do it\", because if they can be deterred by that, then they\nshouldn't be a writer.\n\n6. You should never read bad reviews if you can't help letting them\naffect you. I read them, but I don't let them have an effect on me or\nmy emotions. But if you can't do that, you should just not read them.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-09T19:53:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Query", "in_reply_to": "<180006411003091049g58773e33ubf7767a775cf98c0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding #2, as\nsomeone who struggles with time management myself, I wonder where\nhe managed to fit what must have been a lot of reading in between his\nsleeping, writing, working, parenting, and eating (among other things)\nschedule..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's something else I heard Wolfe say at a panel. He said that\npeople at cons often gift him with books, but the truth is that as\nwriter he really doesn't have time to read for pleasure. He shelves\nare full of books he knows he will never read. This very much reminds\nme of what the fraudlent book maker/novelist said in Peace.\n\nI know he reads books sometimes when he's paid to, but that's not what\nI'm talking about. Therefore, I posit that there are probably very few\nintentional literary references in Wolfe stories from books written\nbefore the mid-1970s. Actually, I don't recall a lot of literary\nreferences in the Island of Doctor Death collection, Fifth Head, or\nPeace. So he might have stopped reading much of fiction well before\nthen.\n\nHowever, based on AEG, I think he must have found time to at least\nread Cory Doctorow recently, unless they were riffing on the same\nreference. And he seems to follow some of Gaiman's work as well.In\nCastle of the Otter/Castle of Days I recall him saying that reading is\nthe most important training for a starting writer: (paraphrasing from\nmemory) \"Before you can serve, you must learn how to please the\nmaster\".\n\nAnother quote from a panel:\n\"You can't imagine how difficult it is to write a well-received youth\nnovel. In order to get one into the hands of its audience, you must\nfirst run a gauntlet through the parents *and* the school librarian.\nYet Neil Gaiman managed to have an award-winning youth novel where the\nmain character's parents and sister are murdered by a serial killer in\nthe first few pages. Neil Gaiman is a wizard!\"\n\nJ." } ] } ] }