{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5557", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5557, "subject": "An Evil Guest: is", "messages": 5, "voices": 2, "first": "2010-03-15T13:10:21+00:00", "last": "2010-03-17T16:25:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-15T13:10:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: is", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Working off the wiki page summarizing the various bits of evidence\nthat Margaret is a major player:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=AnEvilGuest.MysteriousMargaret\n\nAs I re-read AEG with an eye to Margaret, I'm just not convinced that\nMargaret is either a werewolf or a time-traveling Cassie.\n\n- Besides the initials, why should we think Margaret is misleading\nabout her dry-as-dust conservative church-going background? She\ndoesn't talk like Cassie either.\n- The straw example is more questionable because of Margaret's years\nof experience with the stage & dressing & makeup, not because of\ncolor-blindness!\n- And if Margaret is really mistaken about the dress color, wouldn't\nCassie call her on it? I can't be confident of ascribing this to\ncolor-blindness when the reason for Reis's color mistake is uncertain\nas well.\n- The Shirley 'Ladydog' thing is far more consistent with Margaret's\nchurchly prudery than with werewolf sensibilities. (This is one of\nmany double-edged bits of evidence; wouldn't it make *more* sense for\na werewolf to casually use 'bitch' with minimal negative overtones\nthan to avoid the word?)\n- The morality is double-edged, like the fruit. So, if she is\nexcessively moral and vegetarian, that's evidence *for* her being a\nwerewolf? Presumably, if she freely cursed and got into fights and\nliked her steaks raw, that'd be evidence for her being a werewolf\ntoo...\n\nAnd some of the bits seem rather opposite.\n\n- When Margaret fails to recognize Cassie, this is a major sign, isn't\nit? Margaret must remember that scene and what Cassie now looks like,\nsince that is how Margaret has looked her entire post-Cassie life (in\nthis scenario). What purpose is served by faking non-recognition?\n- Margaret getting a sandwich fast isn't very convincing either. Look\nat that scene again; there are multiple long conversations between\nMargaret arriving and returning, and the sandwich is hot & fresh. The\ntheater would be in the town's downtown area; there must be fastfood\njoints all over the place (and notice Cassie doesn't comment on the\nspeed and orders with great assurance, things consistent with a\nrestaurant next door or down the street). So the time is just fine for\nMargaret to jog/run out, grab something, and return. The conversations\ntake easily 10 or 15 minutes - ain't none of them in a hurry.\n- Likewise for the answering machines. Really, how long does it take\nto phone two numbers and leave a message? A minute?\n- Telling from how she sings is not silly at all. 'When two thieves\nmeet, they need no introduction / they recognize each other without\nquestion.' Dancers & martial artists can recognize each other just by\nhow they move; are voices any less revealing? And Cassie has her\nstar-power at this point: it could just be that a star like Cassie *of\ncourse* knows how to sing. The kids at the cafe ask for her autograph\njust like they would for a real star, after all.\n- The braiding hair is also explained by prudery; loose hair is\nindecent and lascivious, you know. Women's hair should be up or\nbraided, and men should have as little as possible.\n\nFurther points that came to me as I read:\n\n- if Margaret/Cassie is doing all this to see Reis again and do\nsomething for him, then why on earth is she frightened of him when he\ncomes to retrieve the gold bracelet? She's worked years, decades, in\nhumiliating menial jobs, just for this moment - and she acts exactly\nas not-Cassie-Margaret would? I don't buy that.\n- During the dinner date, Reis seems pretty confident that he knows\nthe gunsel who attacked Chase, but doesn't know who he works for. The\ngender is wrong, the gunsel is not described as small, and besides,\ndidn't Reis say he looked into Margaret's background and knows she\nwouldn't steal the bracelet? That's not very consistent with her\nattempted murder of Chase.\n- This is even more true of Gideon Chase's description of his\nattacker. He speaks always of a man, and implies that the man was on\nthe large side (because he takes the time to specify that it was not\nthe large FBI man, John). Chase further implies later on, at the\nSilent Woman IIRC, that the attacker was working for the ATF, and that\nclumsy, ineffective attacks are a staple of the ATF (here as well as\nelsewhere I hear allusions to Waco); which works for his attack. The\nFBI wouldn't attack him like that, the Squiddies have no reason to,\nReis wants Chase on his side, leaving the ATF.\nChase is a man of rare perception everywhere else in the book; are we\nto think he is triply fooled by his attacker? (Gender, size, and\nemployer.) I don't think so. And if we can't connect Margaret to the\nattack on Chase, the argument begins to fall apart.\n- And how to reconcile the dirt-poor Margaret with the arch-spy who\ncan fabricate a new identity solid enough to last and withstand the\nfull assault of billionaire Reis's world-class investigators? Would\nReis *really* tell them 'don't bother investigating anything other\nthan her honesty, even if she mysteriously appears one year with no\nprevious records of her existence, because I don't care that she might\nbe a Squiddy spy or ATF plant or agent of Chase'? He spares no expense\nwhere Cassie is concerned, and Margaret seems to spend even more time\nwith Cassie than does Reis or Chase.\n- If the horror story is that Margaret's quest is futile, then why\nwould Chase's survival bother her? Either the storyline is fixed, in\nwhich case despair should've set in the moment she came back, or it's\nmutable at *any* point, in which case Chase escaped *that* time in the\nhotel, but Margaret has many more opportunities to try. (When Chase is\nclumsily dancing around on a peg leg, eg.)\n- Why would Cassie never remark that she now looks like Margaret at\nthe end? (And one would think Margaret would be struck by passing her\ntwin on the street. I know I would.) For that matter, if Cassie really\nis so drab and ugly now, why would she still receive compliments (from\nKlauser, iirc) about being attractive? I think we may have over-played\nher fall; Cassie hasn't fallen below her old self, she's fallen *back*\nto her old self, just with bleached hair.\n- And I know I've hashed this out before, but by most reasonable\nstatistics, the 'wealthiest woman' in an American state is a\nbillionaire, and such people can buy the most sophisticated vessels\naround and have enough left over to never need work again. (Suppose a\nhopper that can make it to Woldercan costs Cassie's *entire* fortune,\nunlikely as that sounds, and she has $1 billion. She needs only put\nher money into bonds and wait a month or two, and at 5% annually,\nshe's made 5-10 million dollars, enough to live on or invest later.\nAnd don't forget, she can sell the hopper later on. Logically, a\nhighly-advanced hopper ought to be worth even more in the past. Cassie\nknows how to sell difficult objects, like her bracelet; I don't think\na hopper would be much more difficult.) Given the multiple avenues to\nwealth Cassie-Margaret has, I don't see any workable explanation\nexcept deliberate camouflage." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-15T20:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: is", "in_reply_to": "<001501cac482$d90ed160$81cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nGwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I re-read AEG with an eye to Margaret, I'm just not convinced that\nMargaret is either a werewolf or a time-traveling Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, I am largely in agreement with you, given that I raised many of the\nsame objections. The only point I would quibble over is this one:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we may have over-played\nher fall; Cassie hasn't fallen below her old self, she's fallen *back*\nto her old self, just with bleached hair." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think Cassie reverted to quite her old self after her long ordeal on\nthat island. It seems to be a rule of \"magic\" that a price must be paid for\nits use, and she is the one who paid it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But this isn't really magic, and in magic payment is usually to\n'outside' entities; the powers are like a loan. Cassie isn't borrowing\nanything from anyone; the star power, as Gideon explains thoroughly,\nwas always in Cassie, she just didn't have access. If someone helps\nyou find a 5$ bill in your messy room, it might be *nice* of you to\ngive them 1$ or something, but there's no genuine price to pay. (What,\nyou have to give them 5$? That'd be silly.) Chase is involved, but\nhe's amply repaid by her assistance; the Manbats are involved, but\nthey seem to be altruistic - hence the talk about 'cub' and 'friend'.\nThe rest is Cassie.\n\nIf you think of the star power/mojo as acting or a skill, reverting to\nnormality (minus the real effects of being marooned) is what one would\nexpect. When you go bicycling around, stop, and years later have\nforgotten, you don't suddenly get crushed by the fatigue of running\naround _n_ miles. You simply can no longer bicycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She didn't just lose her \"mojo\";\nshe seems to have suffered a blow to her general health that \"aged\" her more\nthan she would have naturally in that span of time, so much so that she\nwould never again be the pretty but ordinary young woman that Gideon first\nsaw on the stage. Margaret had also known pre-mojo Cassie, but failed to\nrecognize the haggard woman who passed her by on the street near the bank.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'pretty young woman'? Hold on, isn't Cassie's age late thirties-early\nforties? She can still be attractive, but by that age the adjectives\nhave usually dropped the 'young' bit and replaced 'pretty' with\n'beautiful' or 'handsome'. We can only describe her - as Ambassador\nKlauser does - as a 'young woman' and 'luscious' because of the mojo.\n(We expect sex idol stars who wear 3-square inch bikinis to be in\ntheir 20s, after all.)\n\nBy the time Cassie has, months later, recovered from the island and\nconsulted beauticians (who would do much, but not 'enough'; presumably\n'enough' would be Cassie mojo level of beauty), and go to Klauser, who\nis scrutinizing her, hazards a guess that Cassie is her mother. Going\nby the usual ~20 age bracket, and remembering that Cassie is ~40, it\nworks perfectly. But if Cassie is washed out and dry as dust and has\ndirty pale hair - looks like Margaret - then who would guess that she\nwas Cassie's mother? The circumstances don't make 'mother' the\noverwhelmingly obvious guess. If Cassie is back to her usual self,\nthough...\n\nMargaret seems only to have known Cassie pre-mojo in passing - as\nsomeone she saw occasionally from a distant and heard a reasonable bit\nabout. She then spends *months* with Cassie post-mojo, and like\neveryone else, seems to forget about ordinary pre-mojo Cassie." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501cac482$d90ed160$81cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-03-15T21:02:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: is", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern wrote:\nAs I re-read AEG with an eye to Margaret, I'm just not convinced that\nMargaret is either a werewolf or a time-traveling Cassie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, I am largely in agreement with you, given that I raised many of the\nsame objections. The only point I would quibble over is this one:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we may have over-played\nher fall; Cassie hasn't fallen below her old self, she's fallen *back*\nto her old self, just with bleached hair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Cassie reverted to quite her old self after her long ordeal on\nthat island. It seems to be a rule of \"magic\" that a price must be paid for\nits use, and she is the one who paid it. She didn't just lose her \"mojo\";\nshe seems to have suffered a blow to her general health that \"aged\" her more\nthan she would have naturally in that span of time, so much so that she\nwould never again be the pretty but ordinary young woman that Gideon first\nsaw on the stage. Margaret had also known pre-mojo Cassie, but failed to\nrecognize the haggard woman who passed her by on the street near the bank.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005101cac4ce$566be8a0$77d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-03-16T06:02:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: is", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern wrote:\n'pretty young woman'? Hold on, isn't Cassie's age late thirties-early\nforties?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. She was \"thirtyish\" (207)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She can still be attractive, but by that age the adjectives\nhave usually dropped the 'young' bit and replaced 'pretty' with\n'beautiful' or 'handsome'. We can only describe her - as Ambassador\nKlauser does - as a 'young woman' and 'luscious' because of the mojo.\n(We expect sex idol stars who wear 3-square inch bikinis to be in\ntheir 20s, after all.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pretty and young were my terms. Merely pretty, as she was pre-mojo, as\ndistinguished from mojo beautiful. Young as seen from the perspective of\nsomeone my age -- or Klauser's. As you point out below, the Cassie who came\nto see Klauser looked so much older than the Cassie he had seen on video\nthat he thought she might be beautiful Cassie's mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the time Cassie has, months later, recovered from the island and\nconsulted beauticians (who would do much, but not 'enough'; presumably\n'enough' would be Cassie mojo level of beauty), and go to Klauser, who\nis scrutinizing her, hazards a guess that Cassie is her mother. Going\nby the usual ~20 age bracket, and remembering that Cassie is ~40, it\nworks perfectly. But if Cassie is washed out and dry as dust and has\ndirty pale hair - looks like Margaret - then who would guess that she\nwas Cassie's mother? The circumstances don't make 'mother' the\noverwhelmingly obvious guess. If Cassie is back to her usual self,\nthough..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie's usual self was thirtyish. Margaret, iirc, was said to be in her\nfifties. The woman Klauser was looking at had obviously aged so much that he\ncould think of her as old enough to be Cassie's mother. In my experience, I\nhave never seen a thirtyish woman in modern times who looked old enough to\nbe her own mother. I don't think that even Gideon could have transformed\na talented woman who looked anything like Margaret into the most beautiful\nand desirable woman in the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Margaret seems only to have known Cassie pre-mojo in passing - as\nsomeone she saw occasionally from a distant and heard a reasonable bit\nabout. She then spends *months* with Cassie post-mojo, and like\neveryone else, seems to forget about ordinary pre-mojo Cassie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Margaret had worked backstage for another actress in \"The Red Spot\"; she\nknew perfectly well what pre-mojo Cassie looked like.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-17T16:25:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: is", "in_reply_to": "<005101cac4ce$566be8a0$77d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nGwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'pretty young woman'? Hold on, isn't Cassie's age late thirties-early\nforties?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. She was \"thirtyish\" (207)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, even if we take Cassie at her word - I knew a woman who was in\nher 40s for an awful long time - we can do better than that; the cop\nwho picks up Cassie guesses (pg 29) 'Forty?' 'Not quite.' (And I'd\nargue that Cassie felt obliged to smile because the cop was actually\nlow, making it a compliment by someone she didn't want compliments\nfrom.) 'Not quite' fits best with 39, 38 at the lowest.\n\nNot to mention, early 30s doesn't really seem to me to give Cassie\ntime for all her husbands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassie's usual self was thirtyish. Margaret, iirc, was said to be in her\nfifties. The woman Klauser was looking at had obviously aged so much that he\ncould think of her as old enough to be Cassie's mother. In my experience, I\nhave never seen a thirtyish woman in modern times who looked old enough to\nbe her own mother. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie is more like 40ish. As I said, the expectation of sex starlets\nis 20s, and mojo Cassie is consistently treated as such (cf. the 3\nsquare inch bikini); add 5 or 10 years to get Damaged Normal Cassie,\nand that's a difference of 30 years - giving us the entire gap\nnecessary and even some left over time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that even Gideon could have transformed\na talented woman who looked anything like Margaret into the most beautiful\nand desirable woman in the world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he manages to disguise himself very well, and one of the classic\nuses for 'glamour' is beautifying ugly people, no? He can learn\ninvisibility in a year; I'd wager given a year or two he can learn how\nto put a good glamour on someone if he doesn't already know how." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Margaret seems only to have known Cassie pre-mojo in passing - as\nsomeone she saw occasionally from a distant and heard a reasonable bit\nabout. She then spends *months* with Cassie post-mojo, and like\neveryone else, seems to forget about ordinary pre-mojo Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Margaret had worked backstage for another actress in \"The Red Spot\"; she\nknew perfectly well what pre-mojo Cassie looked like.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And why do we think Margaret is exempt from the mojo's rewriting of\npeoples' memories & expectations? Remember that Cassie was thought to\nbe famous even before she gave the last performance." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] } ] }