{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5559", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5559, "subject": "The Sorcerer's House", "messages": 10, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-03-15T21:59:36+00:00", "last": "2010-03-24T00:10:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<43960c851003151459u3c498829jd31ae3bb3983d571@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-15T21:59:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In F.W. Murnau's silent classic film *Nosferatu*, there is a famous sequence\nin which the vampire loads a coach with coffins; this is under-cranked\n(i.e., filmed in fast motion), to suggest supernatural strength and agility,\nbut to modern viewers (or this one, at least) speeded-up motion seems\ninevitably comic.\n\nI mention this to convey the difficulty I find with Wolfe's latest novel. As\nin *Castleview* and parts of *Free Live Free*, there is such a plethora of\nweird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a typically laconic\nand unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary suspension of\ndisbelief very difficult. Not to spoil anything for those who haven't got\ntheir hands on this yet, I'll give only one minor example: in the middle of\none tense encounter, the narrator receives an emergency telephone call from\nhis butler's little dog.\n\nWolfe is very much smarter than I am, so he must anticipate something of\nthis reaction. The story seems to demand being read straight; yet there are,\nfor another example, no less than three sets of identical twins at large,\nplus an evil dwarf bent on rape (who is explicitly identified with a Dickens\ncharacter I will not name here).\n\nDoes he want us to laugh? I add that Wolfe's few explicit attempts at\nhumour, such as his Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe parodies, have always\nstruck me as leaden failures.\n\nThe jacket copy instructs readers who finish the novel to immediately read\nit again. I'll try, but right now I'm off to Tim Burton's *Alice in\nWonderland.*\n\n\nRussell Wodell" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f1003151905o1c6f6679k94ba3fa843098966@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-16T02:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Evil Guest, yes. I liked the pulpy feel and the Cthulhu stuff, and I\nactually liked Cassie (which I think is a minority opinion.)\n\nPirate Freedom, no. Just a puzzlebox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:01 PM, James Crossley wrote:\n On 3/15/10 1:59 PM, \"Russell Wodell\" wrote:\n\n As in *Castleview* and parts of *Free Live Free*, there is such a\nplethora of weird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a\ntypically laconic and unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary\nsuspension of disbelief very difficult.\n\nWolfe is very much smarter than I am, so he must anticipate something of\nthis reaction. The story seems to demand being read straight; yet there are,\nfor another example, no less than three sets of identical twins at large,\nplus an evil dwarf bent on rape (who is explicitly identified with a Dickens\ncharacter I will not name here).\n\nDoes he want us to laugh? I add that Wolfe's few explicit attempts at\nhumour, such as his Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe parodies, have always\nstruck me as leaden failures.\n\n\nRussell Wodell\n\nI’m about two-thirds of the way through *Sorcerer’s House* and find myself\nin agreement with much of what you’ve said. I can’t really imagine how this\nstuff reads to anyone not very familiar with Wolfe’s work. The characters\nseem inconsistently buffoonish and brilliant, and major events are glossed\nwhile inconsequential conversations take up paragraphs to all appearances.\n\n\nAs with other late-period Wolfe, the surface reading is off-putting not\nbecause of baroque vocabulary or complexity, but for opposite reasons.\n Everything is played so straight and so (apparently) simplistically that\nthere’s next to no pleasure to be had for anyone not racking his brains to\nkeep up with the subtext. Now, I love the puzzling subtext and think the\nbook is worth reading just for that, but what I always really enjoyed about\nthe greatest Wolfean works was the richness available on all levels.\n\nDoes anyone on the list really find these late volumes?I’m thinking of *Evil\nGuest* and *Pirate Freedom*, and even *Memorare*?enjoyable as anything\nother than puzzleboxes?\n\nJames\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B9EEE92.4030001@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2010-03-16T02:36:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/15/2010 11:01 PM, James Crossley wrote:\nDoes anyone on the list really find these late volumes---I'm thinking \nof /Evil Guest/ and /Pirate Freedom/, and even /Memorare/---enjoyable \nas anything other than puzzleboxes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, yes! I loved /Memorare/ (and didn't find much to puzzle about in it) \nand also /Pirate Freedom/, which seems to me a fascinating meditation on \nwhat freedom is and what morality is all about. /Evil Guest/ is sans \ndoute harder, but I don't enjoy the puzzle box version of it nearly as \nmuch as I just enjoy it as a story, a romp, a mash-up of ideas and \nthemes from pulp novels. Who cares whether it makes sense?\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nTry not to have a good time ... This is supposed to be educational.\n -- Charles Schulz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C76068E-E914-4FD7-8F1D-39E464EDEE74@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-03-16T02:51:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "<4B9EEE92.4030001@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I want to know, as always, is why does Wolfe get the crappiest \ncovers?\nThe Sorcerer's House cover is one of the worst yet." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2010-03-16T03:01:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "<43960c851003151459u3c498829jd31ae3bb3983d571@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/15/10 1:59 PM, \"Russell Wodell\" wrote:\nAs in Castleview and parts of Free Live Free, there is such a plethora of\nweird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a typically laconic and\nunemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary suspension of disbelief\nvery difficult. \n\nWolfe is very much smarter than I am, so he must anticipate something of this\nreaction. The story seems to demand being read straight; yet there are, for\nanother example, no less than three sets of identical twins at large, plus an\nevil dwarf bent on rape (who is explicitly identified with a Dickens character\nI will not name here).\n\nDoes he want us to laugh? I add that Wolfe's few explicit attempts at humour,\nsuch as his Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe parodies, have always struck me as\nleaden failures.\n\n\nRussell Wodell" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m about two-thirds of the way through Sorcerer’s House and find myself in\nagreement with much of what you’ve said. I can’t really imagine how this\nstuff reads to anyone not very familiar with Wolfe’s work. The characters\nseem inconsistently buffoonish and brilliant, and major events are glossed\nwhile inconsequential conversations take up paragraphs to all appearances.\n\nAs with other late-period Wolfe, the surface reading is off-putting not\nbecause of baroque vocabulary or complexity, but for opposite reasons.\nEverything is played so straight and so (apparently) simplistically that\nthere’s next to no pleasure to be had for anyone not racking his brains to\nkeep up with the subtext. Now, I love the puzzling subtext and think the\nbook is worth reading just for that, but what I always really enjoyed about\nthe greatest Wolfean works was the richness available on all levels.\n\nDoes anyone on the list really find these late volumes?I’m thinking of Evil\nGuest and Pirate Freedom, and even Memorare enjoyable as anything other than\npuzzleboxes?\n\nJames " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-19T21:27:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:01 PM, James Crossley wrote:\nOn 3/15/10 1:59 PM, \"Russell Wodell\" wrote:\n\nAs in Castleview and parts of Free Live Free, there is such a plethora of\nweird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a typically laconic\nand unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary suspension of\ndisbelief very difficult.\n\nWolfe is very much smarter than I am, so he must anticipate something of\nthis reaction. The story seems to demand being read straight; yet there are,\nfor another example, no less than three sets of identical twins at large,\nplus an evil dwarf bent on rape (who is explicitly identified with a Dickens\ncharacter I will not name here).\n\nDoes he want us to laugh? I add that Wolfe's few explicit attempts at\nhumour, such as his Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe parodies, have always\nstruck me as leaden failures.\n\n\nRussell Wodell\n\nI’m about two-thirds of the way through Sorcerer’s House and find myself in\nagreement with much of what you’ve said. ?I can’t really imagine how this\nstuff reads to anyone not very familiar with Wolfe’s work. ?The characters\nseem inconsistently buffoonish and brilliant, and major events are glossed\nwhile inconsequential conversations take up paragraphs to all appearances.\n\n\nAs with other late-period Wolfe, the surface reading is off-putting not\nbecause of baroque vocabulary or complexity, but for opposite reasons.\n?Everything is played so straight and so (apparently) simplistically that\nthere’s next to no pleasure to be had for anyone not racking his brains to\nkeep up with the subtext. ?Now, I love the puzzling subtext and think the\nbook is worth reading just for that, but what I always really enjoyed about\nthe greatest Wolfean works was the richness available on all levels.\n\nDoes anyone on the list really find these late volumes?I’m thinking of Evil\nGuest and Pirate Freedom, and even Memorare enjoyable as anything other than\npuzzleboxes?\n\nJames" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure. I just set it down, and while it's more readable than\n_Fifth Head of Cerberus_ or _Peace_ or _An Evil Guest_, I don't know\nwhether I enjoyed it or not. I kept waiting for some sort of payoff or\ncomplicated plot denouement, and all I got was Lupine fighting Bax by\nthe river and losing.\n\nThe esoteric story goes quite by me. I mean, obviously Baxter & George\ndueled at the end and George died - the last letter is extremely\ntransparent in that respect, especially compared to how subtle the\nmurder & replacement was in _Fifth Head of Cerberus_. But that doesn't\nseem like enough. Wolfe's little endnote all but tells you that some\nof the letters are out of order and unreliable, yet I don't see any\ninteresting possibilities arising from it.\n\nIn that regard, I feel like after reading _An Evil Guest_: like I\ndon't have even a clue what the subtext is about. Like in AEG which\nhinted at clones and time travel, TSH mentions various possibilities -\nthe rival sorcerer Goldwurm off yonder, the far-reaching and\nparadoxical powers of the triannulus and longlight - but never seems\nto use them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d11003191451h51698564yd95de78812a9830c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-19T21:51:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "<4C76068E-E914-4FD7-8F1D-39E464EDEE74@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nWhat I want to know, as always, is why does Wolfe get the crappiest covers?\nThe Sorcerer's House cover is one of the worst yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really like the look of the book's interior — ornate and mysterious. But\nyes, the front cover is a disappointment. His last few books have had pretty\ngood covers, though I wish Pirate Freedom didn't have the damn \"Sci-Fi\nEssentials\" marker on the spine.\n\nAs for the puzzleboxes versus novels debate, I liked The Sorcerer's House\nand Pirate Freedom, but don't especially care for An Evil Guest. Memorare\nwas a lot of fun, but I haven't given it too much thought. I've yet to read\nSoldier of Sidon, but everyone seems to love it, right?\n\nI don't think Pirate Freedom is one of Wolfe's best books, but it surprised\nme quite a bit — I didn't expect Chris to be anything like the character he\nended up. (Being intentionally vague for those who haven't read it)\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-23T21:39:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "<4C76068E-E914-4FD7-8F1D-39E464EDEE74@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nWhat I want to know, as always, is why does Wolfe get the crappiest covers?\nThe Sorcerer's House cover is one of the worst yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At a panel, Wolfe said that the covers on The Book of the New Sun got\nprogressively worse with each cover as the expectations of the\npublisher increased. He said, no one expected much out of Shadow of\nthe Torturer so they left them alone. But S0tT did well so the Art\nDirector got more involved. As the prospects for each volume improved,\nthe AD's involvement increased. And the quality of the covers\ndecreased with each volume too.\n\nI suspect the publisher had high hopes for the Long Sun/Short Sun\nseries and it showed in the covers.\n\nHowever, I thought the cover on AEG was fine. The covers on TWK and PF\nwere stodgy & a little boring but the illustrations inside made up for\nthat. The cover on Starwater Strains always attracts attention.\n\nIf I had my druthers, I'd like to see a collected works rack of\nvolumes in 60s-style modernist covers. Here's an idea of what I'm\ntalking about:\nhttp://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/25-magnificent-modern-day" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-23T22:16:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando said:\nDoes anyone on the list really find these late volumes?\nI’m thinking of Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom, and even Memorare\n?enjoyable as anything other than puzzleboxes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Russell Wodell said:\nAs in Castleview and parts of Free Live Free, there is such a plethora of\nweird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a typically laconic\nand unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary suspension of\ndisbelief very difficult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern said:\nI'm not sure. I just set it down, and while it's more readable than\n_Fifth Head of Cerberus_ or _Peace_ or _An Evil Guest_, I don't know\nwhether I enjoyed it or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amazon messed up my shipping. The Sorcerer's House is supposedly\nsitting at my door right now.\n\nI'm almost done with Pirate Freedom. Haven't found a puzzle yet that\nisn't carefully explained. Just an historical novel from the POV of a\nmodern narrator. Same for Memorare.\n\nWhen I first finished Peace, I was suprised with the questions left\nopen. Then I thought about it for a couple days an realized the\nanswers were sitting there in plain view. I have open questions in\nFifth Head, but it was certainly readable. It was the novel that\ncaused me to start telling people he was the greatest SF writer ever\n(after coming away with a positive but not overwhelming opinion after\nThe New Sun).\n\nAEG on the other hand was quite readable. It is only as a puzzle that\nit failed. If I just sit back and enjoy the world Wolfe created, it's\ngreat. If I try to figure stuff out...no so much.\n\nCastleview, I think everyone agrees, is just a Fail. But there's a\nlesson in that, that I think touches on some of the complaints about\nPirate Freedom and others. It is this:\n\nNo one asks to see Harry Seldon's math equations. They just accept it.\nNo asks how Galadriel's bowl works. No one frets over Helen's mother\nbeing seduced by a swan. No one asks why Iago hated Othello. The\nreason why Llwyd ap Cil Coed cursed Pwyll is pretty lame, but who\ncares?\n\nBut when it's Wolfe they've got to have an explanation for a Time\nTravelling monastary. And who are those bat people? And why did they\nabduct Able and how is it that there seems to be a twin in Mythgarthr\nand one on this side? And why did Vivianne want to kill Seth and\nwhat's with the talking cat? Meanwhile, Wolfe is saying \"This is\nFaerie! You want explanations?\"\n\nIn Castle of the Otter/Days Wolfe pointed out that people complained\nabout the hard words. He said, people don't mind gibberish words in SF\nif they know it's gibberish. \"But if you work hard to find just the\nright word...I should stopped before my typewriter gets rusty.\"\n\nA lot of the so-called puzzles are not puzzles at all. They are just\nthe setting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<95E1E7B3BF334891BE4558C61A2549A0@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-03-24T00:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Sorcerer's House", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando, adamantly denies he said this. It was someone else he was respond \nto.\nMy mistake. Sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fernando said:\nDoes anyone on the list really find these late volumes?\nI’m thinking of Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom, and even Memorare\n“enjoyable as anything other than puzzleboxes”" } ] } ] }