Subject: (urth) The Sorcerer's House

From: Russell Wodell <wrustle at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:59:36 +0000

In F.W. Murnau's silent classic film *Nosferatu*, there is a famous sequence
in which the vampire loads a coach with coffins; this is under-cranked
(i.e., filmed in fast motion), to suggest supernatural strength and agility,
but to modern viewers (or this one, at least) speeded-up motion seems
inevitably comic.

I mention this to convey the difficulty I find with Wolfe's latest novel. As
in *Castleview* and parts of *Free Live Free*, there is such a plethora of
weird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a typically laconic
and unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary suspension of
disbelief very difficult. Not to spoil anything for those who haven't got
their hands on this yet, I'll give only one minor example: in the middle of
one tense encounter, the narrator receives an emergency telephone call from
his butler's little dog.

Wolfe is very much smarter than I am, so he must anticipate something of
this reaction. The story seems to demand being read straight; yet there are,
for another example, no less than three sets of identical twins at large,
plus an evil dwarf bent on rape (who is explicitly identified with a Dickens
character I will not name here).

Does he want us to laugh? I add that Wolfe's few explicit attempts at
humour, such as his Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe parodies, have always
struck me as leaden failures.

The jacket copy instructs readers who finish the novel to immediately read
it again. I'll try, but right now I'm off to Tim Burton's *Alice in
Wonderland.*

Russell Wodell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100315/212d2001/attachment.htm>

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:05:14 +0000

Evil Guest, yes.  I liked the pulpy feel and the Cthulhu stuff, and I
actually liked Cassie (which I think is a minority opinion.)

Pirate Freedom, no.  Just a puzzlebox.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:01 PM, James Crossley <ishmael at drizzle.com>wrote:

>  On 3/15/10 1:59 PM, "Russell Wodell" <wrustle at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  As in *Castleview* and parts of *Free Live Free*, there is such a
> plethora of weird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a
> typically laconic and unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary
> suspension of disbelief very difficult.
>
> I’m about two-thirds of the way through *Sorcerer’s House* and find myself
> in agreement with much of what you’ve said.  I can’t really imagine how this
> stuff reads to anyone not very familiar with Wolfe’s work.  The characters
> seem inconsistently buffoonish and brilliant, and major events are glossed
> while inconsequential conversations take up paragraphs to all appearances.
>
>
> As with other late-period Wolfe, the surface reading is off-putting not
> because of baroque vocabulary or complexity, but for opposite reasons.
>  Everything is played so straight and so (apparently) simplistically that
> there’s next to no pleasure to be had for anyone not racking his brains to
> keep up with the subtext.  Now, I love the puzzling subtext and think the
> book is worth reading just for that, but what I always really enjoyed about
> the greatest Wolfean works was the richness available on all levels.
>
> Does anyone on the list really find these late volumes?I’m thinking of *Evil
> Guest* and *Pirate Freedom*, and even *Memorare*?enjoyable as anything
> other than puzzleboxes?
>
> James
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100315/90e4de11/attachment.htm>

---

From: Fernando Gouvea <fqgouvea at colby.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:36:02 +0000

On 3/15/2010 11:01 PM, James Crossley wrote:
> Does anyone on the list really find these late volumes---I'm thinking 
> of /Evil Guest/ and /Pirate Freedom/, and even /Memorare/---enjoyable 
> as anything other than puzzleboxes?

Oh, yes! I loved /Memorare/ (and didn't find much to puzzle about in it) 
and also /Pirate Freedom/, which seems to me a fascinating meditation on 
what freedom is and what morality is all about. /Evil Guest/ is sans 
doute harder, but I don't enjoy the puzzle box version of it nearly as 
much as I just enjoy it as a story, a romp, a mash-up of ideas and 
themes from pulp novels. Who cares whether it makes sense?

Fernando

-- 
=============================================================
Fernando Q. Gouvea
Carter Professor of Mathematics
Colby College                     Editor, MAA FOCUS
5836 Mayflower Hill               Editor, MAA Reviews
Waterville, ME 04901              http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/
http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea

Try not to have a good time ... This is supposed to be educational.
   -- Charles Schulz

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100315/80f8b98f/attachment.htm>

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:51:11 +0000

What I want to know, as always, is why does Wolfe get the crappiest  
covers?
The Sorcerer's House cover is one of the worst yet.

---

From: James Crossley <ishmael at drizzle.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 03:01:18 +0000

On 3/15/10 1:59 PM, "Russell Wodell" <wrustle at gmail.com> wrote:

> As in Castleview and parts of Free Live Free, there is such a plethora of
> weird incidents, conveyed at really breakneck speed by a typically laconic and
> unemotional Wolfe narrator, that I find the necessary suspension of disbelief
> very difficult. 
> 
> Wolfe is very much smarter than I am, so he must anticipate something of this
> reaction. The story seems to demand being read straight; yet there are, for
> another example, no less than three sets of identical twins at large, plus an
> evil dwarf bent on rape (who is explicitly identified with a Dickens character
> I will not name here).
> 
> Does he want us to laugh? I add that Wolfe's few explicit attempts at humour,
> such as his Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe parodies, have always struck me as
> leaden failures.
> 
> 
> Russell Wodell
> 
I’m about two-thirds of the way through Sorcerer’s House and find myself in
agreement with much of what you’ve said.  I can’t really imagine how this
stuff reads to anyone not very familiar with Wolfe’s work.  The characters
seem inconsistently buffoonish and brilliant, and major events are glossed
while inconsequential conversations take up paragraphs to all appearances.

Does anyone on the list really find these late volumes?I’m thinking of Evil
Guest and Pirate Freedom, and even Memorare enjoyable as anything other than
puzzleboxes?

James 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100315/2be6f414/attachment.htm>

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:27:35 +0000

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:01 PM, James Crossley <ishmael at drizzle.com> wrote:
> disbelief very difficult.
>
> agreement with much of what you’ve said. ?I can’t really imagine how this
> stuff reads to anyone not very familiar with Wolfe’s work. ?The characters
> ?Everything is played so straight and so (apparently) simplistically that
> keep up with the subtext. ?Now, I love the puzzling subtext and think the

I'm not sure. I just set it down, and while it's more readable than
_Fifth Head of Cerberus_ or _Peace_ or _An Evil Guest_, I don't know
whether I enjoyed it or not. I kept waiting for some sort of payoff or
complicated plot denouement, and all I got was Lupine fighting Bax by
the river and losing.

The esoteric story goes quite by me. I mean, obviously Baxter & George
dueled at the end and George died - the last letter is extremely
transparent in that respect, especially compared to how subtle the
murder & replacement was in _Fifth Head of Cerberus_. But that doesn't
seem like enough. Wolfe's little endnote all but tells you that some
of the letters are out of order and unreliable, yet I don't see any
interesting possibilities arising from it.

In that regard, I feel like after reading _An Evil Guest_: like I
don't have even a clue what the subtext is about. Like in AEG which
hinted at clones and time travel, TSH mentions various possibilities -
the rival sorcerer Goldwurm off yonder, the far-reaching and
paradoxical powers of the triannulus and longlight - but never seems
to use them.

-- 
gwern

---

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:51:27 +0000

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

> What I want to know, as always, is why does Wolfe get the crappiest covers?

I really like the look of the book's interior — ornate and mysterious. But
yes, the front cover is a disappointment. His last few books have had pretty
good covers, though I wish Pirate Freedom didn't have the damn "Sci-Fi
Essentials" marker on the spine.

As for the puzzleboxes versus novels debate, I liked The Sorcerer's House
and Pirate Freedom, but don't especially care for An Evil Guest. Memorare
was a lot of fun, but I haven't given it too much thought. I've yet to read
Soldier of Sidon, but everyone seems to love it, right?

I don't think Pirate Freedom is one of Wolfe's best books, but it surprised
me quite a bit — I didn't expect Chris to be anything like the character he
ended up. (Being intentionally vague for those who haven't read it)

-Matt
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100319/bf9f8a04/attachment.htm>

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 21:39:15 +0000

> The Sorcerer's House cover is one of the worst yet.

At a panel, Wolfe said that the covers on The Book of the New Sun got
progressively worse with each cover as the expectations of the
publisher increased. He said, no one expected much out of Shadow of
the Torturer so they left them alone. But S0tT did well so the Art
Director got more involved. As the prospects for each volume improved,
the AD's involvement increased. And the quality of the covers
decreased with each volume too.

I suspect the publisher had high hopes for the Long Sun/Short Sun
series and it showed in the covers.

However, I thought the cover on AEG was fine. The covers on TWK and PF
were stodgy & a little boring but the illustrations inside made up for
that. The cover on Starwater Strains always attracts attention.

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see a collected works rack of
volumes in 60s-style modernist covers. Here's an idea of what I'm
talking about:
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/25-magnificent-modern-day

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 22:16:17 +0000

>Fernando said:
>Does anyone on the list really find these late volumes?
>I’m thinking of Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom, and even Memorare
>?enjoyable as anything other than puzzleboxes?

>Russell Wodell said:

>Gwern said:
> whether I enjoyed it or not.

Amazon messed up my shipping. The Sorcerer's House is supposedly
sitting at my door right now.

I'm almost done with Pirate Freedom. Haven't found a puzzle yet that
isn't carefully explained. Just an historical novel from the POV of a
modern narrator. Same for Memorare.

When I first finished Peace, I was suprised with the questions left
open. Then I thought about it for a couple days an realized the
answers were sitting there in plain view. I have open questions in
Fifth Head, but it was certainly readable. It was the novel that
caused me to start telling people he was the greatest SF writer ever
(after coming away with a positive but not overwhelming opinion after
The New Sun).

AEG on the other hand was quite readable. It is only as a puzzle that
it failed. If I just sit back and enjoy the world Wolfe created, it's
great. If I try to figure stuff out...no so much.

Castleview, I think everyone agrees, is just a Fail. But there's a
lesson in that, that I think touches on some of the complaints about
Pirate Freedom and others. It is this:

No one asks to see Harry Seldon's math equations. They just accept it.
No asks how Galadriel's bowl works. No one frets over Helen's mother
being seduced by a swan. No one asks why Iago hated Othello. The
reason why Llwyd ap Cil Coed cursed Pwyll is pretty lame, but who
cares?

But when it's Wolfe they've got to have an explanation for a Time
Travelling monastary. And who are those bat people? And why did they
abduct Able and how is it that there seems to be a twin in Mythgarthr
and one on this side? And why did Vivianne want to kill Seth and
what's with the talking cat? Meanwhile, Wolfe is saying "This is
Faerie! You want explanations?"

In Castle of the Otter/Days Wolfe pointed out that people complained
about the hard words. He said, people don't mind gibberish words in SF
if they know it's gibberish. "But if you work hard to find just the
right word...I should stopped before my typewriter gets rusty."

A lot of the so-called puzzles are not puzzles at all. They are just
the setting.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:10:05 +0000

Fernando, adamantly denies he said this. It was someone else he was respond 
to.
My mistake. Sorry.

>>> “enjoyable as anything other than puzzleboxes”
>>>