{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/556", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 556, "subject": "Palaemon != Severian; _TBOTNS-1_", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-05-04T13:31:43+00:00", "last": "1998-05-05T12:07:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David_Lebling", "address": "david_lebling at avid.com" }, "date": "1998-05-04T13:31:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon != Severian; _TBOTNS-1_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "re: Dan Parmenter, on Palaemon = Severian0" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think I buy that one. It's more in the nature of the scene in\nthe typical coming-of-age story where the older mentor reveals, usually\nwhen the protagonist is in some hot water, that he too had trouble with\nthe law/guild/church/whatever when he was a sprout. Of course, being\npart of a Wolfe story, it isn't presented quite that straightforwardly.\n\nThe plot outline that Wolfe alludes to in _Castle of the Otter_ is\nprobably the story of Sev1's life, as far as it goes. Severian himself\ngives a few clues as to how Sev1 could have solved his dilemma, though\nmy strong guess is that in Wolfe's original plot it wouldn't have come\noff quite so easily as Sev2 imagines. Thus, I disagree with mantis; I\nthink Sev1 indeed met and loved Thecla in his own limited way, but did\nnot have the, um, benefit of the analeptic alzabo to bring her to life\nlater in his own mind. Or, even more probably, as Sev1 didn't have the\nClaw, his memories of Thecla wouldn't last, which Wolfe points out later\nin the story. Thecla's direct influence on his mind is important in the\n\"revisions\" that make him succeed at his task.\n\n --viz\n (david_lebling at avid.com)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "1998-05-05T12:07:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: Palaemon != Severian; _TBOTNS-1_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David_Lebling at avid.com\nre: Dan Parmenter, on Palaemon = Severian0" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I buy that one. It's more in the nature of the scene\nin the typical coming-of-age story where the older mentor reveals,\nusually when the protagonist is in some hot water, that he too had\ntrouble with the law/guild/church/whatever when he was a sprout. Of\ncourse, being part of a Wolfe story, it isn't presented quite that\nstraightforwardly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never said that Palaemon *was* Severian0 but rather that Palaemon\ncould be thought of as a predecessor to Severian, someone who trod a\nsimilar path, but didn't quite make it as far. Remember, the scene\nthat I cited was of Winnoc (the Pelerine slave) recounting being\nwhipped by Palaemon. I think it's significant that the slave credits\nPalaemon with having sent him on the path of the straight and narrow\n(admittedly, as a slave) and when Severian tells him that Palaemon's\nadvice was not part of the torture, he thanks him for the knowledge,\nanother example of Severian's having done good inadvertently. The\nfact that the completion of the good deed involved Palaemon seems\nsignificant.\n\nIncidentally, Palaemon's behavior and words when he sends Severian on\nhis way are very odd. First he claims that Thrax is by the sea. Then\nhe tells Severian to pay attention to his good advice but remarks that\nSeverian would probably forget it all. Palaemon, who we are told\nelsewhere was fond of Severian for his perfect memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The plot outline that Wolfe alludes to in _Castle of the Otter_ is\nprobably the story of Sev1's life, as far as it goes. Severian\nhimself gives a few clues as to how Sev1 could have solved his\ndilemma, though my strong guess is that in Wolfe's original plot it\nwouldn't have come off quite so easily as Sev2 imagines. Thus, I\ndisagree with mantis; I think Sev1 indeed met and loved Thecla in\nhis own limited way, but did not have the, um, benefit of the\nanaleptic alzabo to bring her to life later in his own mind. Or,\neven more probably, as Sev1 didn't have the Claw, his memories of\nThecla wouldn't last, which Wolfe points out later in the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Severian1 presumably had the total recall. And besides, Severian\ndoes eventually get the picture that he doesn't need the claw to do\nwhat he does.\n\nI'll admit that my hypothesis of Palaemon as the Severian of the\nnever-written novella is far-fetched, but I'm still somewhat fond of\nthe idea of Palaemon as a predecessor, not in the \"timeline\" sense but\nin the sense that there's no way that any Severian would ever learn\nmercy without Palaemon's actions. Severian receives a lot of help\nalong the way, why not the direct help of a former teacher? If\nSeverian is truly the sum of not only his own experience but the\npeople who influenced him (and who still ive on as Thecla does or as\naquastors), then Palaemon is simply one of the many people who\ninfluenced him and who in some sense lives on in him. This is really\nnot a very controversial observation.\n\nBut what about his odd comments? And where DID he get Terminus Est?\n\nBTW, there's at least one passage that suggests that the first\nSeverian may not have even been a torturer:\n\nBook IV, Ch. 36:\n\n\"He too was reared by the torturers, I think.\"\n\nThe \"I think\" suggests uncertainty, but I won't dwell on it.\n\nD" } ] } ] }