{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5579", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5579, "subject": "Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "messages": 22, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-04-09T18:35:53+00:00", "last": "2010-04-14T00:11:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T18:35:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) The ring that Bax finds in the fish is a numen storage device or\nbecomes one when Bax touches it after he has aquired numen but dowsing\nthe long-light. . One could argue that the ring came from Zwart but\nI'm not sure about that. After all the fish were summoned by the\ntriannulus. The ring might well have been created simply by Bax's\nstored numen. Opals were once believed to be magical--conferring both\ngood and bad luck in various contexts. On reflection, the ring that\nthe Rajan receives in The Book of the Short Sun is probably an opal.\nAt first it is white and then when Oreb returns it, it is black IIRC.\nOpals come in both these colors.A fire opal might be referred to as\nblack.\n\n2) The middle-aged man who brings the fish is merely called a\n\"neighbor\". Bax does not record the name he was given. It is\nreasonable that both he and Mrs. Nabor are citizens of Faeri.\n\"Neighbor\" is a word for faeries which Wolfe has employed in both An\nEvil Guest and The Book of the Short Sun.\n\n3) Question: Bax finds the ring in a catfish. On his finger, Doris\nsees it as a cats-eye opal. What's the connection to cats? Later, the\npawn dealer sees it and identifies it as a fire opal which looks much\ndifferent. I don't understand the logic of that either.\n\n4) Question: Doris doesn't say what Ted was crying into when she sees\nhim at the end of the novel. I presume it is a handkerchief because it\nhas his initials on it. Why not say so?\n\n5) But Wolfe has Doris spell out those initials, which strikes me as a\nclue: \"T.A.G.\" Ted is Ambrosius, as others have said. Theodore\nAmbrosius Griffin--unless the G stands for Goldwurm which complicates\nthe story terribly. The ring that Doris gave Bax is his numen storage\nthat Goldwurm could never find. The reason Doris finds him crying at\nthe end is because he discovers that Doris has given away his ring.\nFor a sorcerer, he has lost his entire fortune.\n\n6) I agree that \"Finn\" and Griffin are pseudonyms for the same person.\n\n7) At one point, Bax implies that Zwart was the werewolf he killed as\nhe and Doris were fleeing the restaurant. This makes all kinds of\nsense to me. But then Zwart makes an appearance at the end of the\nnovel. So...hmm.\n\n8) Hypothesis: There's another possiblity as to the identity of the\nwerewolf, but I haven't done anything to investigate it. It could have\nbeen George. Martha Murray said she believed that Zwart wanted Bax or\nGeorge to kill the other. But Bax dismisses this theory because the\nbullets were clearly intended to kill a werewolf. Sooo...George was\nthe werewolf. The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already).\nSubsequent letters to Bax from George were invented. It was Bax who,\nin the company of Doris and the psychic, forced Nicholas/Nosferatu\nback into the trunk. While impersonating his dead brother.It was clear\nfrom Nicholaus's conversation with Bax that he had already been in the\ntrunk a while; so this is possible. Doris felt confused about her\nfeelings for Bax when she thought she was running around with his\nbrother. This will need a re-read.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T19:43:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After considering this a bit, I think George must have known about\ntheir father before he left for Medicine Man. He comes into the\nreading of the will accusing Bax of attempting to cheat him. He think\nthe House is to be left to *him*. (Why?) If George is already a\nwerewolf, then ihe s probably well aware of Faeri. Since he already\nknows about their father, naturally he assumes that the House is to be\nleft to him as well. And because Trelawney knew George was a werewolf,\nhe held him off with the dueling pistol. George might well have known\nthat that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver\nbullets.\n\nIs there reason to believe that Bax was the *younger* twin? If George\nis a werewolf, there is certainly a Jacob/(hairy) Esau thing going on\nhere. As you know, Jacob not only cheated Esau out of his elder-son\nblessing, but he earlier sold Esau a pot of beans for his birthright\n-- an act in which Esau was hardly innocent, just as Bax implies was\nthe case with George. Yet, I can't think of a scenario in which Bax\nchanged the will and the instructions, or impersonates George.\n\nSide note: Trelawney was the Romantic poet/adventurer who arranged for\nburials of Shelley and Williams when they drowned (and was present\nwhen they died). He wrote a novel entitled \"Adventures of a Younger\nSon\", which was seen by the public as somewhat autobiographical." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T21:20:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On \"Finn,\" it has also occurred to me that it might be a bit of a joke on\n\"elfin.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:35 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n1) The ring that Bax finds in the fish is a numen storage device or\nbecomes one when Bax touches it after he has aquired numen but dowsing\nthe long-light. . One could argue that the ring came from Zwart but\nI'm not sure about that. After all the fish were summoned by the\ntriannulus. The ring might well have been created simply by Bax's\nstored numen. Opals were once believed to be magical--conferring both\ngood and bad luck in various contexts. On reflection, the ring that\nthe Rajan receives in The Book of the Short Sun is probably an opal.\nAt first it is white and then when Oreb returns it, it is black IIRC.\nOpals come in both these colors.A fire opal might be referred to as\nblack.\n\n2) The middle-aged man who brings the fish is merely called a\n\"neighbor\". Bax does not record the name he was given. It is\nreasonable that both he and Mrs. Nabor are citizens of Faeri.\n\"Neighbor\" is a word for faeries which Wolfe has employed in both An\nEvil Guest and The Book of the Short Sun.\n\n3) Question: Bax finds the ring in a catfish. On his finger, Doris\nsees it as a cats-eye opal. What's the connection to cats? Later, the\npawn dealer sees it and identifies it as a fire opal which looks much\ndifferent. I don't understand the logic of that either.\n\n4) Question: Doris doesn't say what Ted was crying into when she sees\nhim at the end of the novel. I presume it is a handkerchief because it\nhas his initials on it. Why not say so?\n\n5) But Wolfe has Doris spell out those initials, which strikes me as a\nclue: \"T.A.G.\" Ted is Ambrosius, as others have said. Theodore\nAmbrosius Griffin--unless the G stands for Goldwurm which complicates\nthe story terribly. The ring that Doris gave Bax is his numen storage\nthat Goldwurm could never find. The reason Doris finds him crying at\nthe end is because he discovers that Doris has given away his ring.\nFor a sorcerer, he has lost his entire fortune.\n\n6) I agree that \"Finn\" and Griffin are pseudonyms for the same person.\n\n7) At one point, Bax implies that Zwart was the werewolf he killed as\nhe and Doris were fleeing the restaurant. This makes all kinds of\nsense to me. But then Zwart makes an appearance at the end of the\nnovel. So...hmm.\n\n8) Hypothesis: There's another possiblity as to the identity of the\nwerewolf, but I haven't done anything to investigate it. It could have\nbeen George. Martha Murray said she believed that Zwart wanted Bax or\nGeorge to kill the other. But Bax dismisses this theory because the\nbullets were clearly intended to kill a werewolf. Sooo...George was\nthe werewolf. The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already).\nSubsequent letters to Bax from George were invented. It was Bax who,\nin the company of Doris and the psychic, forced Nicholas/Nosferatu\nback into the trunk. While impersonating his dead brother.It was clear\nfrom Nicholaus's conversation with Bax that he had already been in the\ntrunk a while; so this is possible. Doris felt confused about her\nfeelings for Bax when she thought she was running around with his\nbrother. This will need a re-read.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T21:37:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After considering this a bit, I think George must have known about\ntheir father before he left for Medicine Man. He comes into the\nreading of the will accusing Bax of attempting to cheat him. He think\nthe House is to be left to *him*. (Why?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Debts. Either because Bax stole the legacy from George by the trick\n(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob), or for the frauds\nperpetuated on him and his friends. Bax says that as far as he is\nconcerned, George chose to be repaid by prison time. This strongly\nimplies to me that there is still a debt outstanding. ('He says I\nstill owe him X millions, but as far as *I'm* concerned, it's been\npaid in full.')\n\nA large mansion with high property taxes (implying high assessment &\nvalue) would serve nicely as a down payment.\n\n(Remember also how Bax couches the first requests for money.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If George is already a\nwerewolf, then ihe s probably well aware of Faeri. Since he already\nknows about their father, naturally he assumes that the House is to be\nleft to him as well. And because Trelawney knew George was a werewolf,\nhe held him off with the dueling pistol. George might well have known\nthat that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver\nbullets." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eh? So antique gun = silver bullets? If anything, I'd think it'd be\neasier to use silver bullets with modern guns - one hears about\npoisoned bullets where the tip is drilled into, or coated. One doesn't\nhear so much about silver shot which has to be turned on a jeweler's\nlath at great cost, I think Doris describes it as." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there reason to believe that Bax was the *younger* twin? If George\nis a werewolf, there is certainly a Jacob/(hairy) Esau thing going on\nhere. As you know, Jacob not only cheated Esau out of his elder-son\nblessing, but he earlier sold Esau a pot of beans for his birthright\n-- an act in which Esau was hardly innocent, just as Bax implies was\nthe case with George. Yet, I can't think of a scenario in which Bax\nchanged the will and the instructions, or impersonates George." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?\nI don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T21:38:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could also be an allusion to Finn MacCool, Irish mythological hero \nand lover of a woman from Faerie.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:20 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:\nOn \"Finn,\" it has also occurred to me that it might be a bit of a \njoke on \"elfin.\"\n\nOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:35 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n1) The ring that Bax finds in the fish is a numen storage device or\nbecomes one when Bax touches it after he has aquired numen but dowsing\nthe long-light. . One could argue that the ring came from Zwart but\nI'm not sure about that. After all the fish were summoned by the\ntriannulus. The ring might well have been created simply by Bax's\nstored numen. Opals were once believed to be magical--conferring both\ngood and bad luck in various contexts. On reflection, the ring that\nthe Rajan receives in The Book of the Short Sun is probably an opal.\nAt first it is white and then when Oreb returns it, it is black IIRC.\nOpals come in both these colors.A fire opal might be referred to as\nblack.\n\n2) The middle-aged man who brings the fish is merely called a\n\"neighbor\". Bax does not record the name he was given. It is\nreasonable that both he and Mrs. Nabor are citizens of Faeri.\n\"Neighbor\" is a word for faeries which Wolfe has employed in both An\nEvil Guest and The Book of the Short Sun.\n\n3) Question: Bax finds the ring in a catfish. On his finger, Doris\nsees it as a cats-eye opal. What's the connection to cats? Later, the\npawn dealer sees it and identifies it as a fire opal which looks much\ndifferent. I don't understand the logic of that either.\n\n4) Question: Doris doesn't say what Ted was crying into when she sees\nhim at the end of the novel. I presume it is a handkerchief because it\nhas his initials on it. Why not say so?\n\n5) But Wolfe has Doris spell out those initials, which strikes me as a\nclue: \"T.A.G.\" Ted is Ambrosius, as others have said. Theodore\nAmbrosius Griffin--unless the G stands for Goldwurm which complicates\nthe story terribly. The ring that Doris gave Bax is his numen storage\nthat Goldwurm could never find. The reason Doris finds him crying at\nthe end is because he discovers that Doris has given away his ring.\nFor a sorcerer, he has lost his entire fortune.\n\n6) I agree that \"Finn\" and Griffin are pseudonyms for the same person.\n\n7) At one point, Bax implies that Zwart was the werewolf he killed as\nhe and Doris were fleeing the restaurant. This makes all kinds of\nsense to me. But then Zwart makes an appearance at the end of the\nnovel. So...hmm.\n\n8) Hypothesis: There's another possiblity as to the identity of the\nwerewolf, but I haven't done anything to investigate it. It could have\nbeen George. Martha Murray said she believed that Zwart wanted Bax or\nGeorge to kill the other. But Bax dismisses this theory because the\nbullets were clearly intended to kill a werewolf. Sooo...George was\nthe werewolf. The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already).\nSubsequent letters to Bax from George were invented. It was Bax who,\nin the company of Doris and the psychic, forced Nicholas/Nosferatu\nback into the trunk. While impersonating his dead brother.It was clear\nfrom Nicholaus's conversation with Bax that he had already been in the\ntrunk a while; so this is possible. Doris felt confused about her\nfeelings for Bax when she thought she was running around with his\nbrother. This will need a re-read.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T21:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um. Yes, they were. Check Genesis 25." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T21:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They were twins. Fraternal. And when Esau came out first, Jacob was\nclutching his heel. But Jacob does imposture Esau to steal his\nblessing. (Oops I see Dan'l already noted this)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "George might well have known\nthat that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver\nbullets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh? So antique gun = silver bullets? If anything, I'd think it'd be\neasier to use silver bullets with modern guns -" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Modern guns require complicated manufactured bullets. You'd have to\nmake a silver shell casing. There are probably people who can do that,\nbut it requires less expertise (I imagine) to make a silver musket\nball.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T21:53:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?\nI don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For twins, that really wouldn't say anything unless one of them got\nhis undergraduate degree 10 minutes before the other. It's just\nwhichever was the better student." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15058.67.142.130.34.1270850412.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-09T22:00:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jacob and Esau weren't twins?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After considering this a bit, I think George must have known about\ntheir father before he left for Medicine Man. He comes into the\nreading of the will accusing Bax of attempting to cheat him. He think\nthe House is to be left to *him*. (Why?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Debts. Either because Bax stole the legacy from George by the trick\n(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob), or for the frauds\nperpetuated on him and his friends. Bax says that as far as he is\nconcerned, George chose to be repaid by prison time. This strongly\nimplies to me that there is still a debt outstanding. ('He says I\nstill owe him X millions, but as far as *I'm* concerned, it's been\npaid in full.')\n\nA large mansion with high property taxes (implying high assessment &\nvalue) would serve nicely as a down payment.\n\n(Remember also how Bax couches the first requests for money.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If George is already a\nwerewolf, then ihe s probably well aware of Faeri. Since he already\nknows about their father, naturally he assumes that the House is to be\nleft to him as well. And because Trelawney knew George was a werewolf,\nhe held him off with the dueling pistol. George might well have known\nthat that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver\nbullets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh? So antique gun = silver bullets? If anything, I'd think it'd be\neasier to use silver bullets with modern guns - one hears about\npoisoned bullets where the tip is drilled into, or coated. One doesn't\nhear so much about silver shot which has to be turned on a jeweler's\nlath at great cost, I think Doris describes it as." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there reason to believe that Bax was the *younger* twin? If George\nis a werewolf, there is certainly a Jacob/(hairy) Esau thing going on\nhere. As you know, Jacob not only cheated Esau out of his elder-son\nblessing, but he earlier sold Esau a pot of beans for his birthright\n-- an act in which Esau was hardly innocent, just as Bax implies was\nthe case with George. Yet, I can't think of a scenario in which Bax\nchanged the will and the instructions, or impersonates George." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?\nI don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13109.67.142.130.34.1270850494.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-09T22:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pure silver can be melted and cast or even thrown from a shot tower, if\nyou have enough of it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for\nTrelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax\nwas not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George\n(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After considering this a bit, I think George must have known about\ntheir father before he left for Medicine Man. He comes into the\nreading of the will accusing Bax of attempting to cheat him. He think\nthe House is to be left to *him*. (Why?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Debts. Either because Bax stole the legacy from George by the trick\n(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob), or for the frauds\nperpetuated on him and his friends. Bax says that as far as he is\nconcerned, George chose to be repaid by prison time. This strongly\nimplies to me that there is still a debt outstanding. ('He says I\nstill owe him X millions, but as far as *I'm* concerned, it's been\npaid in full.')\n\nA large mansion with high property taxes (implying high assessment &\nvalue) would serve nicely as a down payment.\n\n(Remember also how Bax couches the first requests for money.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If George is already a\nwerewolf, then ihe s probably well aware of Faeri. Since he already\nknows about their father, naturally he assumes that the House is to be\nleft to him as well. And because Trelawney knew George was a werewolf,\nhe held him off with the dueling pistol. George might well have known\nthat that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver\nbullets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh? So antique gun = silver bullets? If anything, I'd think it'd be\neasier to use silver bullets with modern guns - one hears about\npoisoned bullets where the tip is drilled into, or coated. One doesn't\nhear so much about silver shot which has to be turned on a jeweler's\nlath at great cost, I think Doris describes it as." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there reason to believe that Bax was the *younger* twin? If George\nis a werewolf, there is certainly a Jacob/(hairy) Esau thing going on\nhere. As you know, Jacob not only cheated Esau out of his elder-son\nblessing, but he earlier sold Esau a pot of beans for his birthright\n-- an act in which Esau was hardly innocent, just as Bax implies was\nthe case with George. Yet, I can't think of a scenario in which Bax\nchanged the will and the instructions, or impersonates George." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?\nI don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14842.67.142.130.34.1270850828.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-09T22:07:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Melt silver.\n\nPour into bullet mold.\n\nAllow to cool and harden.\n\nHowever, you certainly don't need a dueling pistol, and you certainly\ndon't need a flintlock. Any cap and ball weapon would work, like my 1858\nRemington (a six shot revolver).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They were twins. Fraternal. And when Esau came out first, Jacob was\nclutching his heel. But Jacob does imposture Esau to steal his\nblessing. (Oops I see Dan'l already noted this)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "George might well have known\nthat that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver\nbullets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Eh? So antique gun = silver bullets? If anything, I'd think it'd be\neasier to use silver bullets with modern guns -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Modern guns require complicated manufactured bullets. You'd have to\nmake a silver shell casing. There are probably people who can do that,\nbut it requires less expertise (I imagine) to make a silver musket\nball.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2860.67.142.130.34.1270850929.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-09T22:08:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bax says George left school and got a job, he kept going to graduate\nschool until the legacy was gone.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?\nI don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For twins, that really wouldn't say anything unless one of them got\nhis undergraduate degree 10 minutes before the other. It's just\nwhichever was the better student.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T22:09:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there reason to believe that Bax was the *younger* twin? If George\nis a werewolf, there is certainly a Jacob/(hairy) Esau thing going on\nhere. As you know, Jacob not only cheated Esau out of his elder-son\nblessing, but he earlier sold Esau a pot of beans for his birthright\n-- an act in which Esau was hardly innocent, just as Bax implies was\nthe case with George. Yet, I can't think of a scenario in which Bax\nchanged the will and the instructions, or impersonates George." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still, thinking about this. The house and property are not George's\n\"blessing\". Millie is, which George is unable to appreciate. And Bax\nimpersonates George to get it.\n\nAs for their father wanting Bax to kill George:\n\nMalachi 1:2-3\n\"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?\" the LORD says. \"Yet I have loved Jacob\nbut Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a\nwasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-09T22:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they\nweren't twins," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um. Yes, they were. Check Genesis 25." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mea culpa. I thought for some reason that they were by different\nmothers, since that makes the story a little less bizarre. (If Rachel\nis the mother of both, then the story makes even less sense, and I\nlike even more the higher criticism explanation of it as political\nmyth-making from centuries later.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 5:53 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWe could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?\nI don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For twins, that really wouldn't say anything unless one of them got\nhis undergraduate degree 10 minutes before the other. It's just\nwhichever was the better student." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a stretch, but it may be the case that the 'older' twin goes into\nthings first. We're going to have a hard time deciding precedence\nbetween George and Bax in the absence of any positive statements\nunless we make some sort of assumption." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Modern guns require complicated manufactured bullets. You'd have to\nmake a silver shell casing. There are probably people who can do that,\nbut it requires less expertise (I imagine) to make a silver musket\nball." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never heard that the entire bullet has to be silver. If silver is\npoisonous to werewolves, and real people all the time add poison or\nexplosive tips to modern bullets..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-04-10T02:01:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nStill, thinking about this. The house and property are not George's\n\"blessing\". Millie is, which George is unable to appreciate. And Bax\nimpersonates George to get it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jacob cheated Esau out of both an inheritance (birthright) and a blessing.\nThe house ends up belonging to Bax too, and it's interesting that it was\nheld by A&I Properties, with a Mr. Issacs for the \"I\", so it could well be\n\"Abraham and Issac's Properties.\" George as werewolf = hairy Esau is a\nclever idea.\n\nTo get killing that first werewolf to equal killing George we need to\ntranspose some letters (or say that later George letters were fake). It's a\nreasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman George found who was\nhis guide to the things of Faerie (in this case being Lupine, who possibly\nmade George into a werewolf). Maybe the battle with the werewolves and the\nRiver Man toward the end is where George died." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-10T02:44:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, thinking about this. The house and property are not George's\n\n\"blessing\". Millie is, which George is unable to appreciate. And Bax\nimpersonates George to get it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jacob cheated Esau out of both an inheritance (birthright) and a blessing. The house ends up belonging to Bax too, and it's interesting that it was held by A&I Properties, with a Mr. Issacs for the \"I\", so it could well be \"Abraham and Issac's Properties.\"? George as werewolf = hairy Esau is a clever idea.\n\nTo get killing that first werewolf to equal killing George we need to transpose some letters (or say that later George letters were fake). It's a reasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman George found who was his guide to the things of Faerie (in this case being Lupine, who possibly made George into a werewolf). Maybe the battle with the werewolves and the River Man toward the end is where George died." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like that transposition idea. We've been looking for a place where\nthere's some transposition since Wolfe clearly tells us to look for\none, and such a transposition wouldn't be a trivial boring one, but\nquite meaningful.\n\nIt troubles me a little because of George's duel note. If the drive to\ndinner and killing the werewolf in self-defense happen before the duel\nnote, then that raises the question: why would Bax forge such a\ndangerous and suspicious note, only to lamely dismiss it in the final\nletter? Also, I'm not sure that the description of the body works for\nGeorge/Bax.\n\nKilling George at the final battle makes more sense - then the note is\ngenuine and Bax's lame waving-away more understandable.\nBut one would expect the killing of George to be significant: the left\nbehind body would be striking ('oh no, Bax is dead!' 'wait, but Bax is\nover there with the fox sword!' 'eh?'), and the killing ought to be\nmajor and marked out some way. I don't have the text handy, but I\ndon't remember any werewolf (except Lupin) standing out." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BC0B1C2.2020308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-04-10T17:13:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\nKilling George at the final battle makes more sense - then the note is\ngenuine and Bax's lame waving-away more understandable.\nBut one would expect the killing of George to be significant: the left\nbehind body would be striking ('oh no, Bax is dead!' 'wait, but Bax is\nover there with the fox sword!' 'eh?'), and the killing ought to be\nmajor and marked out some way. I don't have the text handy, but I\ndon't remember any werewolf (except Lupin) standing out.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this really is Jacob and Esau, it's possible there was no killing of \nGeorge at all, just a reconciliation as in the Bible story. George (aka \nEmlyn) goes off to Faerie to learn how to save his lover Lupine, leaving \nBax (aka Ieuan) in control. In this case, there is only one real set of \ntwins and the timeless nature of Faerie allows us to see them in two \ndifferent states.\n\nThere's a hint of this sort of timelessness when Bax sees himself and \nthe car at a later time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<79DA087246D843AAB94AD6EB5206C9A9@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-11T00:42:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Killing George at the final battle makes more sense[snip]\nBut one would expect the killing of George to be significant: the left\nbehind body would be striking ('oh no, Bax is dead!' 'wait, but Bax is\nover there with the fox sword!' 'eh?'), and the killing ought to be\nmajor and marked out some way. [snip]\nI don't have the text handy, but I\ndon't remember any werewolf (except Lupin) standing out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My working hypothesis is that the body Lupine was putting back together \nduring the final battle was George's.\n\nDave said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a reasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman\nGeorge found who was his guide to the things of Faerie\n(in this case being Lupine, who possibly made George into a werewolf)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He might have already been a werewolf when he arrived and the note was a \nfake made by Bax\nOR\nthe letter note from George might have been out of place.\n\nOne thing though, I don't recall right now any indication that you can \nbecome a werewolf by being bitten. Lupine traded (\"sold\") her soul for her \nwolfskin. It's not an easy, quick process, I presume. But she might have \ntaught George how to do that. It is striking that the is soul-selling in a \nnovel with an Old Nick. I'm not sure I get the connection if there is one. \nDid she sell her soul to Zwart?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it's interesting that it was held by A&I Properties,\nwith a Mr. Issacs for the \"I\", so it could well be\n\"Abraham and Issac's Properties.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a very good catch.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-11T03:30:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "<79DA087246D843AAB94AD6EB5206C9A9@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nGwern said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Killing George at the final battle makes more sense[snip]\nBut one would expect the killing of George to be significant: the left\nbehind body would be striking ('oh no, Bax is dead!' 'wait, but Bax is\nover there with the fox sword!' 'eh?'), and the killing ought to be\nmajor and marked out some way. [snip]\nI don't have the text handy, but I\ndon't remember any werewolf (except Lupin) standing out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My working hypothesis is that the body Lupine was putting back together\nduring the final battle was George's.\n\nDave said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a reasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman\nGeorge found who was his guide to the things of Faerie\n(in this case being Lupine, who possibly made George into a werewolf)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He might have already been a werewolf when he arrived and the note was a\nfake made by Bax\nOR\nthe letter note from George might have been out of place.\n\nOne thing though, I don't recall right now any indication that you can\nbecome a werewolf by being bitten. Lupine traded (\"sold\") her soul for her\nwolfskin. It's not an easy, quick process, I presume. But she might have\ntaught George how to do that. It is striking that the is soul-selling in a\nnovel with an Old Nick. I'm not sure I get the connection if there is one.\nDid she sell her soul to Zwart?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's implied pretty strongly that whomever Lupin sold her soul\nto, it wasn't Zwart. Zwart would hardly be telling his son to learn,\nteam up with his twin, become a great cunning wizard, travel far away,\netc. if the soul-holder were him. Unless of course Zwart isn't Zwart\nbut a distant wizard of the same name..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BC3F7E9.1060009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-04-13T04:49:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "<79DA087246D843AAB94AD6EB5206C9A9@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n/it's interesting that it was held by A&I Properties,\n/>/with a Mr. Issacs for the \"I\", so it could well be\n/>/\"Abraham and Issac's Properties.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nThat's a very good catch.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another possible take on A&I Properties is that the 'A' is for \nAmbrosius. That would make Mr. Isaacs, the surviving partner, be \nGoldwurm. Goldwurm is a well-known Jewish surname.\n\nThat doesn't exclude Ted being Ambrosius and Hardaway being Goldwurm. \nDoris has 'been around' and may have been sleeping with her boss (p. \n156). Doris may have betrayed her husband to Goldwurm. I don't believe \nshe is ignorant about the ring or she wouldn't have asked for it back \nwhen she turned against Bax (p. 274).\n\nThe Dennis Quilp/Dick Quist/Quorn connection looks good. Common initials \nwere key in \"An Evil Guest,\" so why not here? Cathy is raped by Quorn, \npossibly a different form of Quist, her future father-in-law (p. 190). \nOn that same page the gem in the ring has upgraded to a star sapphire. I \nlike the idea that it becomes more valuable as it stores numen." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-13T15:30:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "<4BC3F7E9.1060009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That doesn't exclude Ted being Ambrosius and Hardaway being Goldwurm. Doris\nhas 'been around' and may have been sleeping with her boss (p. 156). Doris\nmay have betrayed her husband to Goldwurm. I don't believe she is ignorant\nabout the ring or she wouldn't have asked for it back when she turned\nagainst Bax (p. 274)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, from the start I expected Doris to be more knowledgeable than\nshe was letting on, but at every turn she seemed genuinely clueless\nabout all things Faeri. I admit I'm troubled that she asked for the\nring back at all,. but if she knew it was so valuable, why would she\never leave without it? However, she later declares that she \"made a\nmistake\" and wants to come back. So it is possible that at that time\nshe has learned her error.\n\nJ.\n\nPS Could Mary King be Lupine's soul? Sure Lupine (pronounced \"lupeena\"\nI think), meaning she-wolf, was not her original name." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-04-14T00:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nPS Could Mary King be Lupine's soul? Sure Lupine (pronounced \"lupeena\"\nI think), meaning she-wolf, was not her original name.\n\nI keep thinking there has to be a connection between Mary King and the\ncircle-dance, in which we see:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) A king,\n2) A queen (Mary?),\n3) A long-legged man (the vampire Nicholas),\n4) A woman wearing a fur (Lupine),\n5) A dwarf\n\nAnother interesting thing about the ring-gem becoming a star sapphire. Most\nasterisms are six-pointed stars. The Ring of Solomon was inscribed with a\nStar of David, a six-pointed star, and supposedly used to control spirits.\nOne legend about the ring is that a demon stole it, taking Solomon's place\nfor a time and making him a pauper. Then the demon discarded the ring in the\nsea, where it was swallowed by a fish. The fish was caught and given to\nSolomon. Once he had the ring back he regained his former status and\nkingdom." } ] } ] }