Subject: (urth) Sorcerer's House--First Read--Some Thoughts/Questions

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:35:53 +0000

1) The ring that Bax finds in the fish is a numen storage device or
becomes one when Bax touches it after he has aquired numen but dowsing
the long-light. . One could argue that the ring came from Zwart but
I'm not sure about that. After all the fish were summoned by the
triannulus. The ring might well have been created simply by Bax's
stored numen. Opals were once believed to be magical--conferring both
good and bad luck in various contexts. On reflection, the ring that
the Rajan receives in The Book of the Short Sun is probably an opal.
At first it is white and then when Oreb returns it, it is black IIRC.
Opals come in both these colors.A fire opal might be referred to as
black.

2) The middle-aged man who brings the fish is merely called a
"neighbor". Bax does not record the name he was given. It is
reasonable that both he and Mrs. Nabor are citizens of Faeri.
"Neighbor" is a word for faeries which Wolfe has employed in both An
Evil Guest and The Book of the Short Sun.

3) Question: Bax finds the ring in a catfish. On his finger, Doris
sees it as a cats-eye opal. What's the connection to cats? Later, the
pawn dealer sees it and identifies it as a fire opal which looks much
different. I don't understand the logic of that either.

4) Question: Doris doesn't say what Ted was crying into when she sees
him at the end of the novel. I presume it is a handkerchief because it
has his initials on it. Why not say so?

5) But Wolfe has Doris spell out those initials, which strikes me as a
clue: "T.A.G." Ted is Ambrosius, as others have said. Theodore
Ambrosius Griffin--unless the G stands for Goldwurm which complicates
the story terribly. The ring that Doris gave Bax is his numen storage
that Goldwurm could never find. The reason Doris finds him crying at
the end is because he discovers that Doris has given away his ring.
For a sorcerer, he has lost his entire fortune.

6) I agree that "Finn" and Griffin are pseudonyms for the same person.

7) At one point, Bax implies that Zwart was the werewolf he killed as
he and Doris were fleeing the restaurant. This makes all kinds of
sense to me. But then Zwart makes an appearance at the end of the
novel. So...hmm.

8) Hypothesis: There's another possiblity as to the identity of the
werewolf, but I haven't done anything to investigate it. It could have
been George. Martha Murray said she believed that Zwart wanted Bax or
George to kill the other. But Bax dismisses this theory because the
bullets were clearly intended to kill a werewolf. Sooo...George was
the werewolf. The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for
Trelawney.Trelawney's questions were _not_ intended to prove that Bax
was not some other Baxter Dunn but to verify that he was not George
(impersonating Bax) who would become the werewolf (or was already).
Subsequent letters to Bax from George were invented. It was Bax who,
in the company of Doris and the psychic, forced Nicholas/Nosferatu
back into the trunk. While impersonating his dead brother.It was clear
from Nicholaus's conversation with Bax that he had already been in the
trunk a while; so this is possible. Doris felt confused about her
feelings for Bax when she thought she was running around with his
brother.  This will need a re-read.

J.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:43:33 +0000

>The note with the pistols was not meant for Bax but for

After considering this a bit, I think George must have known about
their father before he left for Medicine Man. He comes into the
reading of the will accusing Bax of attempting to cheat him. He think
the House is to be left to *him*. (Why?) If George is already a
werewolf, then ihe s probably well aware of Faeri. Since he already
knows about their father, naturally he assumes that the House is to be
left to him as well. And because Trelawney knew George was a werewolf,
he held him off with the dueling pistol. George might well have known
that that type of gun was the type most credibl to have silver
bullets.

Is there reason to believe that Bax was the *younger* twin? If George
is a werewolf, there is certainly a Jacob/(hairy) Esau thing going on
here. As you know, Jacob not only cheated Esau out of his elder-son
blessing, but he earlier sold Esau a pot of beans for his birthright
-- an act in which Esau was hardly innocent, just as Bax implies was
the case with George. Yet, I can't think of a scenario in which Bax
changed the will and the instructions, or impersonates George.

Side note: Trelawney was the Romantic poet/adventurer who arranged for
burials of Shelley and Williams when they drowned (and was present
when they died). He wrote a novel entitled "Adventures of a Younger
Son", which was seen by the public as somewhat autobiographical.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:20:59 +0000

On "Finn," it has also occurred to me that it might be a bit of a joke on
"elfin."

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:35 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

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From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:37:05 +0000

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:43 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> the House is to be left to *him*. (Why?)

Debts. Either because Bax stole the legacy from George by the trick
(and if we're going to make Jacob & Esau comparisons, though they
weren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob), or for the frauds
perpetuated on him and his friends. Bax says that as far as he is
concerned, George chose to be repaid by prison time. This strongly
implies to me that there is still a debt outstanding. ('He says I
still owe him X millions, but as far as *I'm* concerned, it's been
paid in full.')

A large mansion with high property taxes (implying high assessment &
value) would serve nicely as a down payment.

(Remember also how Bax couches the first requests for money.)

> If George is already a

Eh? So antique gun = silver bullets? If anything, I'd think it'd be
easier to use silver bullets with modern guns - one hears about
poisoned bullets where the tip is drilled into, or coated. One doesn't
hear so much about silver shot which has to be turned on a jeweler's
lath at great cost, I think Doris describes it as.

> changed the will and the instructions, or impersonates George.

We could look at the legacy; which one got their undergraduate first?
I don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first.

-- 
gwern

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:38:59 +0000

It could also be an allusion to Finn MacCool, Irish mythological hero  
and lover of a woman from Faerie.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:20 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> On "Finn," it has also occurred to me that it might be a bit of a  
> joke on "elfin."
>
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:46:47 +0000

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> weren't twins,

Um. Yes, they were. Check Genesis 25.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:50:19 +0000

> weren't twins, Bax would be the scheming Jacob),

They were twins. Fraternal. And when Esau came out first, Jacob was
clutching his heel. But Jacob does imposture Esau to steal his
blessing. (Oops I see Dan'l already noted this)

>> George might well have known
> easier to use silver bullets with modern guns -

Modern guns require complicated manufactured bullets. You'd have to
make a silver shell casing. There are probably people who can do that,
but it requires less expertise (I imagine) to make a silver musket
ball.

J.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:53:32 +0000

> I don't have my copy here, but I *think* Bax graduated first.

For twins, that really wouldn't say anything unless one of them got
his undergraduate degree 10 minutes before the other. It's just
whichever was the better student.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:00:12 +0000

Jacob and Esau weren't twins?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:01:34 +0000

Pure silver can be melted and cast or even thrown from a shot tower, if
you have enough of it.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:07:08 +0000

Melt silver.

Pour into bullet mold.

Allow to cool and harden.

However, you certainly don't need a dueling pistol, and you certainly
don't need a flintlock. Any cap and ball weapon would work, like my 1858
Remington (a six shot revolver).

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:08:49 +0000

Bax says George left school and got a job, he kept going to graduate
school until the legacy was gone.

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:09:43 +0000

> changed the will and the instructions, or impersonates George.

Still, thinking about this. The house and property are not George's
"blessing". Millie is, which George is unable to appreciate. And Bax
impersonates George to get it.

As for their father wanting Bax to kill George:

Malachi 1:2-3
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a
wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:54:01 +0000

> Um. Yes, they were. Check Genesis 25.

Mea culpa. I thought for some reason that they were by different
mothers, since that makes the story a little less bizarre. (If Rachel
is the mother of both, then the story makes even less sense, and I
like even more the higher criticism explanation of it as political
myth-making from centuries later.)

> whichever was the better student.

It's a stretch, but it may be the case that the 'older' twin goes into
things first. We're going to have a hard time deciding precedence
between George and Bax in the absence of any positive statements
unless we make some sort of assumption.

> but it requires less expertise (I imagine) to make a silver musket

I've never heard that the entire bullet has to be silver. If silver is
poisonous to werewolves, and real people all the time add poison or
explosive tips to modern bullets...

-- 
gwern

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 02:01:04 +0000

> impersonates George to get it.
Jacob cheated Esau out of both an inheritance (birthright) and a blessing.
The house ends up belonging to Bax too, and it's interesting that it was
held by A&I Properties, with a Mr. Issacs for the "I", so it could well be
"Abraham and Issac's Properties."  George as werewolf = hairy Esau is a
clever idea.

To get killing that first werewolf to equal killing George we need to
transpose some letters (or say that later George letters were fake). It's a
reasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman George found who was
his guide to the things of Faerie (in this case being Lupine, who possibly
made George into a werewolf). Maybe the battle with the werewolves and the
River Man toward the end is where George died.
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From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 02:44:08 +0000

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
> Jacob cheated Esau out of both an inheritance (birthright) and a blessing. The house ends up belonging to Bax too, and it's interesting that it was held by A&I Properties, with a Mr. Issacs for the "I", so it could well be "Abraham and Issac's Properties."? George as werewolf = hairy Esau is a clever idea.
>
> To get killing that first werewolf to equal killing George we need to transpose some letters (or say that later George letters were fake). It's a reasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman George found who was his guide to the things of Faerie (in this case being Lupine, who possibly made George into a werewolf). Maybe the battle with the werewolves and the River Man toward the end is where George died.

I like that transposition idea. We've been looking for a place where
there's some transposition since Wolfe clearly tells us to look for
one, and such a transposition wouldn't be a trivial boring one, but
quite meaningful.

It troubles me a little because of George's duel note. If the drive to
dinner and killing the werewolf in self-defense happen before the duel
note, then that raises the question: why would Bax forge such a
dangerous and suspicious note, only to lamely dismiss it in the final
letter? Also, I'm not sure that the description of the body works for
George/Bax.

Killing George at the final battle makes more sense - then the note is
genuine and Bax's lame waving-away more understandable.
But one would expect the killing of George to be significant: the left
behind body would be striking ('oh no, Bax is dead!' 'wait, but Bax is
over there with the fox sword!' 'eh?'), and the killing ought to be
major and marked out some way. I don't have the text handy, but I
don't remember any werewolf (except Lupin) standing out.

-- 
gwern

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:13:38 +0000

> don't remember any werewolf (except Lupin) standing out.
If this really is Jacob and Esau, it's possible there was no killing of 
George at all, just a reconciliation as in the Bible story. George (aka 
Emlyn) goes off to Faerie to learn how to save his lover Lupine, leaving 
Bax (aka Ieuan) in control. In this case, there is only one real set of 
twins and the timeless nature of Faerie allows us to see them in two 
different states.

There's a hint of this sort of timelessness when Bax sees himself and 
the car at a later time.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:42:53 +0000

Gwern said
>Killing George at the final battle makes more sense[snip]
> major and marked out some way. [snip]
>I don't have the text handy, but I

My working hypothesis is that the body Lupine was putting back together 
during the final battle was George's.

Dave said:
>It's a reasonable idea, and it maybe goes along with the woman
>George found who was his guide to the things of Faerie
>(in this case being Lupine, who possibly made George into a werewolf).

He might have already been a werewolf when he arrived and the note was a 
fake made by Bax
OR
the letter note from George might have been out of place.

One thing though, I don't recall right now any indication that you can 
become a werewolf by being bitten. Lupine traded ("sold") her soul for her 
wolfskin. It's not an easy, quick process, I presume. But she might have 
taught George how to do that. It is striking that the is soul-selling in a 
novel with an Old Nick. I'm not sure I get the connection if there is one. 
Did she sell her soul to Zwart?

>it's interesting that it was held by A&I Properties,
>with a Mr. Issacs for the "I", so it could well be
>"Abraham and Issac's Properties."

That's a very good catch.

J.

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 03:30:21 +0000

> Did she sell her soul to Zwart?

I think it's implied pretty strongly that whomever Lupin sold her soul
to, it wasn't Zwart. Zwart would hardly be telling his son to learn,
team up with his twin, become a great cunning wizard, travel far away,
etc. if the soul-holder were him. Unless of course Zwart isn't Zwart
but a distant wizard of the same name...

-- 
gwern

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:49:45 +0000

James Wynn wrote:
> >/it's interesting that it was held by A&I Properties,
> />/with a Mr. Issacs for the "I", so it could well be
> />/"Abraham and Issac's Properties."
> /
Another possible take on A&I Properties is that the 'A' is for 
Ambrosius. That would make Mr. Isaacs, the surviving partner, be 
Goldwurm. Goldwurm is a well-known Jewish surname.

That doesn't exclude Ted being Ambrosius and Hardaway being Goldwurm. 
Doris has 'been around' and may have been sleeping with her boss (p. 
156). Doris may have betrayed her husband to Goldwurm. I don't believe 
she is ignorant about the ring or she wouldn't have asked for it back 
when she turned against Bax (p. 274).

The Dennis Quilp/Dick Quist/Quorn connection looks good. Common initials 
were key in "An Evil Guest," so why not here? Cathy is raped by Quorn, 
possibly a different form of Quist, her future father-in-law (p. 190).  
On that same page the gem in the ring has upgraded to a star sapphire. I 
like the idea that it becomes more valuable as it stores numen.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:30:59 +0000

> That doesn't exclude Ted being Ambrosius and Hardaway being Goldwurm. Doris
> has 'been around' and may have been sleeping with her boss (p. 156). Doris
> may have betrayed her husband to Goldwurm. I don't believe she is ignorant
> about the ring or she wouldn't have asked for it back when she turned
> against Bax (p. 274).

Well, from the start I expected Doris to be more knowledgeable than
she was letting on, but at every turn she seemed genuinely clueless
about all things Faeri. I admit I'm troubled that she asked for the
ring back at all,. but if she knew it was so valuable, why would she
ever leave without it? However, she later declares that she "made a
mistake" and wants to come back. So it is possible that at that time
she has learned her error.

J.

PS Could Mary King be Lupine's soul? Sure Lupine (pronounced "lupeena"
I think), meaning she-wolf, was not her original name.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:11:51 +0000

James Wynn wrote:

> I keep thinking there has to be a connection between Mary King and the
circle-dance, in which we see:
1) A king,
2) A queen (Mary?),
3) A long-legged man (the vampire Nicholas),
4) A woman wearing a fur (Lupine),
5) A dwarf

Another interesting thing about the ring-gem becoming a star sapphire. Most
asterisms are six-pointed stars. The Ring of Solomon was inscribed with a
Star of David, a six-pointed star, and supposedly used to control spirits.
One legend about the ring is that a demon stole it, taking Solomon's place
for a time and making him a pauper. Then the demon discarded the ring in the
sea, where it was swallowed by a fish. The fish was caught and given to
Solomon. Once he had the ring back he regained his former status and
kingdom.
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