{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5580", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5580, "subject": "more questions on Sorcerer's House (spoilers)", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-04-11T17:24:26+00:00", "last": "2010-04-12T07:43:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4BC1BF7A020000EF00047FD1@azrael.olivet.edu>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2010-04-11T17:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more questions on Sorcerer's House (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’ve been following the discussion on The Sorcerer’s House here with\ninterest. This is the first Wolfe book I’ve read through and then\nimmediately re-read. A few things I’m still wondering about after the\nsecond time through:\n\n-I think it’s pretty clear that Ted is Ambrosius and that the ring Doris\ngives Bax is Ambrosius? item of sorcery. What’s not clear though is\nDoris’s intentions in giving Bax the ring. I don’t buy the reasons she\ngives. Plus, in the conversation in letter 5 in which she gives him the\nring and explains why she wants him to wear it, she knows his first\nname. Then almost immediately she acts like she doesn’t yet know it and\nrefers to him again as Mr. Dunn. \n\n-If Ted is Ambrosius, can we figure out from the text who Goldwurm is? \nFor some reason I found myself suspecting Jim Hardaway. There’s a lot\nthat doesn’t make sense if that’s the case (for example, Emlyn says that\ntheir father doesn’t want Goldwurm to know he’s not around, but Hardaway\nknew the Black House was unoccupied). A couple things that make me\nsuspicious of him though: in letter 41 Martha tells Bax to watch out for\nHardaway. Why? Also, the first time Bax wanders out of his house into\nFaerie (letter 20), he gets a call from Hardaway, who says he must be\nfar from the tower. We can assume he meant cell phone tower, but for\nsome reason this made me think of Goldwurm’s tower.\n\n-Who is Mary King? She’s mentioned twice (letters 21 and 25).\n\n-In letter 26, when Bax meets Kate Finn’s mom, they make a big deal\nabout calling each other Bax and Biddy instead of Mr. Dunn and Mrs.\nFinn. So much so that it seems to be hinting at something, though I\ndon’t know what.\n\n-What’s the deal with the dwarf’s name in letter 31? He calls himself\nQuorn but Baxter says he knew him as Quilp. A quick search on Wikipedia\nreveals that Daniel Quilp was a dwarf in Dickin’s The Old Curiosity\nShop. I skimmed the plot synopsis, but no immediate parallels jumped\nout. I’m also curious at the name’s similarity to Dick Quist, the\njeweler who’s so interested in Bax’s ring.\n\n-Finally, something still bothers me about the chronology regarding\nGeorge’s activities once he’s in Medicine Man. According to Baxter, he\narrives, ends up in prison, makes bail, comes to Bax’s house and\nreleases Nicholas, and then gets lost in the house. Then he’s suddenly\n“picked up” on the street. Then he’s back in the house again\nand along with his father, Doris, and Madame Orizia gets Nicholas\nback in the trunk. This just seems weird. What would make George come\nback to the house and solve the problem of Nicholas being loose?\n\n-Maybe we shouldn't make too much out of this, but are we sure that Bax\nreplacing George means that George is definitely dead? We had Mrs.\nNaber saying that if one twin died, the other usually died soon after. \nSure this isn't necessarily always the case, but it seems like it would\nbe more likely for \"magic\" twins. Maybe Bax duped me as well, but I\nfigured George had been taken into Faerie at the end of the book to\nspend some time with his parents and maybe get straightened out. \nSomething like this is hinted with the partial reconcilation between\nEmlyn and Ieuan at the end of the battle by the river, maybe.\n\nI’m sure there’s much I’ve missed, but that’s what sticks out to me now.\n Any thoughts?\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-12T04:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more questions on Sorcerer's House (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<4BC1BF7A020000EF00047FD1@azrael.olivet.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-I think it’s pretty clear that Ted is Ambrosius and that the ring Doris\ngives Bax is Ambrosius? item of sorcery. What’s not clear though is\nDoris’s intentions in giving Bax the ring. I don’t buy the reasons she\ngives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I did. She didn't know that Ted was a sorcerer. She didn’t realize \nthe significance of the ring or that Ted would return to claim it. She was \nunder the influence of Bax's numen heightened by Bax wearing an item of \nsorcery already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus, in the conversation in letter 5 in which she gives him the\nring and explains why she wants him to wear it, she knows his first\nname. Then almost immediately she acts like she doesn’t yet know it and\nrefers to him again as Mr. Dunn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same thing. Under the influence of numen. She's holding his hand when she \nmomentarily forgets his first name. I can't think of of reason otherwise for \nher admitting she forgot his first name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Who is Mary King? She’s mentioned twice (letters 21 and 25)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good question. During my read I just pegged her as one of the women killed \nby the werewolf but now I see that's not so. Bax brings up her name out of \nnowhere to Shell in connection with Skotos/Zwart. Then later she is a \nphantom hitch-hiker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-What’s the deal with the dwarf’s name in letter 31? He calls himself\nQuorn but Baxter says he knew him as Quilp. A quick search on Wikipedia\nreveals that Daniel Quilp was a dwarf in Dickin’s The Old Curiosity\nShop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know. One could get hopelessly lost taking this too far, but a name like \nQuilp for a Literature PhD with an announced fondness for Dickens certainly \nsmells as though the character were fabricated or embellished. Of course The \nQuorn is a famous club for sponsoring fox hunts FWIW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Finally, something still bothers me about the chronology regarding\nGeorge’s activities once he’s in Medicine Man. According to Baxter, he\narrives, ends up in prison, makes bail, comes to Bax’s house and\nreleases Nicholas, and then gets lost in the house. Then he’s suddenly\n“picked up” on the street. Then he’s back in the house again\nand along with his father, Doris, and Madame Orizia gets Nicholas\nback in the trunk. This just seems weird. What would make George come\nback to the house and solve the problem of Nicholas being loose?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found the news that he was searching the house with Doris and Orizia \npeculiar on it's face. And George just didn't seem to be the kind of person \nwould worry about a Nosferatu on the loose. That's among the reason I like \nBax for impersonating George at the time. And why would he do that unless he \nwere hiding that George was dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Maybe we shouldn't make too much out of this, but are we sure that Bax\nreplacing George means that George is definitely dead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We had Mrs.\nNaber saying that if one twin died, the other usually died soon after.\nSure this isn't necessarily always the case, but it seems like it would\nbe more likely for \"magic\" twins. Maybe Bax duped me as well, but I\nfigured George had been taken into Faerie at the end of the book to\nspend some time with his parents and maybe get straightened out.\nSomething like this is hinted with the partial reconcilation between\nEmlyn and Ieuan at the end of the battle by the river, maybe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Tallman that a reconciliation is fits better with the theme of \nJacob & Esau, but find it hard to believe that Bax would do it. He HATES \nGeorge. Nothing in the story seems likely to change those feelings. We don't \nknow that George is definitely dead, but I'm increasingly inclined that he \nprobably has died (which in a Wolfe novel is not the same thing as \"is \ndead\"). It certainly makes a better story than the reconciliation ending.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<89D0B87F8F094A13AF4BB909DB05DE03@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-12T04:16:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more questions on Sorcerer's House (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\\>> -Who is Mary King? She’s mentioned twice (letters 21 and 25)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good question. During my read I just pegged her as one of the women killed \nby the werewolf but now I see that's not so. Bax brings up her name out of \nnowhere to Shell in connection with Skotos/Zwart. Then later she is a \nphantom hitch-hiker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to try reading letter 21 as if it actually belongs after 25.\n\nThere is a Mary King's Ghost Fest held in Edinburgh every year (it was last \nmonth). I can't determine what is the story behind it. Apparently she \nsomething a of a tourist draw in Edinburgh.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eugene Zaretskiy", "address": "eugene.zar at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-12T05:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more questions on Sorcerer's House (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<4BC1BF7A020000EF00047FD1@azrael.olivet.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Stephen Case wrote:\nI’ve been following the discussion on The Sorcerer’s House here with\ninterest. “This is the first Wolfe book I’ve read through and then\nimmediately re-read. ?A few things I’m still wondering about after the\nsecond time through:\n\n-I think it’s pretty clear that Ted is Ambrosius and that the ring Doris\ngives Bax is Ambrosius” item of sorcery. “What’s not clear though is\nDoris’s intentions in giving Bax the ring. ?I don’t buy the reasons she\ngives. ?Plus, in the conversation in letter 5 in which she gives him the\nring and explains why she wants him to wear it, she knows his first\nname. ?Then almost immediately she acts like she doesn’t yet know it and\nrefers to him again as Mr. Dunn.\n\n-If Ted is Ambrosius, can we figure out from the text who Goldwurm is”\nFor some reason I found myself suspecting Jim Hardaway. “There’s a lot\nthat doesn’t make sense if that’s the case (for example, Emlyn says that\ntheir father doesn’t want Goldwurm to know he’s not around, but Hardaway\nknew the Black House was unoccupied). ?A couple things that make me\nsuspicious of him though: in letter 41 Martha tells Bax to watch out for\nHardaway. ?Why” ?Also, the first time Bax wanders out of his house into\nFaerie (letter 20), he gets a call from Hardaway, who says he must be\nfar from the tower. “We can assume he meant cell phone tower, but for\nsome reason this made me think of Goldwurm’s tower.\n\n-Who is Mary King” “She’s mentioned twice (letters 21 and 25).\n\n-In letter 26, when Bax meets Kate Finn’s mom, they make a big deal\nabout calling each other Bax and Biddy instead of Mr. Dunn and Mrs.\nFinn. ?So much so that it seems to be hinting at something, though I\ndon’t know what.\n\n-What’s the deal with the dwarf’s name in letter 31” ?He calls himself\nQuorn but Baxter says he knew him as Quilp. ?A quick search on Wikipedia\nreveals that Daniel Quilp was a dwarf in Dickin’s The Old Curiosity\nShop. ?I skimmed the plot synopsis, but no immediate parallels jumped\nout. ?I’m also curious at the name’s similarity to Dick Quist, the\njeweler who’s so interested in Bax’s ring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bax being well-read, I took it as Bax wanting to point out how\nhorrible the dwarf was by comparing him to Quilp the horrible dwarf\nfrom _The Old Curiosity Shop_ via metaphor. To back up the theory of\nQuilp-as-metaphor, if we assume the final letter is really forged by\nBax, he mentions _The Old Curiosity Shop_ with familiarity there. In\nfact, it almost makes me want to re-read it to see if there's anything\nelse of substance to that connection...\n\nAs for the connection to Quist, Quilp was a moneylender in Dickens'\nstory. A jeweler is pretty close to that, in my mind -- especially one\nwho buys jewelery (as, typically, this service is used as an\nalternative to borrowing money). In fact, with so many twins in this\nbook, why not Faerie and Medicine Man? I'm sure it's been mentioned.\nSo, who is Doris' twin? I nominate Lupine. Was the ring a gift, like a\nlimb?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Finally, something still bothers me about the chronology regarding\nGeorge’s activities once he’s in Medicine Man. “According to Baxter, he\narrives, ends up in prison, makes bail, comes to Bax’s house and\nreleases Nicholas, and then gets lost in the house. ?Then he’s suddenly\n?picked up” on the street. “Then he’s back in the house again\nand along with his father, Doris, and Madame Orizia gets Nicholas\nback in the trunk. ?This just seems weird. ?What would make George come\nback to the house and solve the problem of Nicholas being loose”\n\n-Maybe we shouldn't make too much out of this, but are we sure that Bax\nreplacing George means that George is definitely dead? “We had Mrs.\nNaber saying that if one twin died, the other usually died soon after.\nSure this isn't necessarily always the case, but it seems like it would\nbe more likely for \"magic\" twins. ?Maybe Bax duped me as well, but I\nfigured George had been taken into Faerie at the end of the book to\nspend some time with his parents and maybe get straightened out.\nSomething like this is hinted with the partial reconcilation between\nEmlyn and Ieuan at the end of the battle by the river, maybe.\n\nI’m sure there’s much I’ve missed, but that’s what sticks out to me now.\n?Any thoughts”\n-Steve\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<219955.36552.qm@smtp818.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-04-12T07:43:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more questions on Sorcerer's House (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<89D0B87F8F094A13AF4BB909DB05DE03@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:16 12/04/2010, James Wynn wrote:\nThere is a Mary King's Ghost Fest held in Edinburgh every year (it \nwas last month). I can't determine what is the story behind it. \nApparently she something a of a tourist draw in Edinburgh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mary King's Close is an underground street in Edinbirgh that's \norganized as a historical 'experience' museum. Mary King's Ghost Fest \nis run by the company that operate the Close.\n\nThe historical Mary King after whom the street was named is thought \nto have been the daughter of Alexander King, who owned the land in \nthe 16th century. She is not thought to be a ghost herself (or at \nleast is not marketed as such), although there are several ghosts \nallegedly associated with the site.\n\nIt is possible I suppose that Wolfe might have pulled up the name \nMary King as associated with ghosts in Edinburgh and assumed that she \nwas one, but I would expect him to be more thorough than that. It \nseems more likely to me that a different, more obscure Mary King is \nhis source; or that the name is constructed for some onomastic purpose.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] } ] }