{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5581", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5581, "subject": "TSH: Doris and Lupine", "messages": 22, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-04-15T22:54:01+00:00", "last": "2010-04-17T14:45:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000901cadcee$8ee6d4a0$edd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-04-15T22:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Letter #18 bugs me, for two reasons. First, it is addressed to Millie, and\non p-132, right after the break, Bax wrote: \"Joe came for the car. I know I\nwrote to George about that.\" Well, no, he didn't. The first mention of Joe\ncoming out to look at the car was in the previous letter (#17, p-118), which\nwas also addressed to Millie.\n\nIs this a mistake by Wolfe, or is it a left-handed comment about the\nreliability of Bax's account of events?\n\nSecond, when Bax got back to Doris's car, a woman who apparently looked like\nDoris got in as the passenger, after he had offered to return her keys. He\ndrove and suggested that they stop somewhere to eat. She said no. He started\nto say that he would take her back to her apartment, when they saw another\nwoman standing by the road and waving. The waving woman proved to be Doris,\nand when Bax stopped for her the passenger vanished, leaving behind a funky\nsmell.\n\nA werewolf is defined in the book as a human who takes on the shape of a\nwolf. I wasn't aware that a werewolf could take on the guise of another\nhuman. (Nevermind being in two places at the same time.) What, if anything,\ndoes this episode say about Doris and Lupine? How did Lupine get Doris's\nkeys?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T12:40:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<000901cadcee$8ee6d4a0$edd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A werewolf is defined in the book as a human who takes on the shape of a\nwolf. I wasn't aware that a werewolf “could take on the guise of another\nhuman. (Nevermind being in two places at the same time.) What, if anything,\ndoes this episode say about Doris and Lupine” How did Lupine get Doris's\nkeys?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...Why do you assume a bad smell means a werewolf? I thought it\nwas vampires that had a bad smell. But I never associated the false\nDoris with Nicholas until now. Incidentally, I kinda think Mary King's\nghost might be Lupine's soul.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BC8A279.2000609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T17:46:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nHmmm...Why do you assume a bad smell means a werewolf? I thought it\nwas vampires that had a bad smell. But I never associated the false\nDoris with Nicholas until now. Incidentally, I kinda think Mary King's\nghost might be Lupine's soul.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's see if this all fits together. We have two vanishing passenger \nincidents involving Doris. One is pp. 132-133, and Bax definitely says \nthis is Lupine. (\"She was in here with you.\" \"Yes. She was.\"). The other \nis Mary King on p. 200. Doris sees her vanish (or says she does).\n\nThe theory would be that Doris and Lupine are the same person, that she \nwas once known as Mary King and split off her soul as part of the \nprocess of becoming a werewolf.\n\nBreaking down the first appearance of Lupine:\n1) Walking with Doris down to the river, \"a hand slipped into mine.\"\n2) Doris said \"I think I'll turn around and go back\" from some distance \nbehind him. This is her sending her soul back away (so she can take \nLupine form).\n3) Her physical body remains with Bax, and the car keys remain in her \npossession.\n4) Ghost-husband Ted appears, disapproving of this move. She dismisses him.\n5) Winkle shows up to protect Bax (\"A fox barked\") and Lupine races away \nin wolf form.\n6) Lupine talks to Bax by the water about heads, arms, etc. She gives \nBax the car keys.\n7) The ghost passenger looking like Doris gets into the car with Bax. \nShe cannot drive and doesn't eat. She has the odor of Lupine, or of carrion.\n8) They catch up with physical Lupine, who has run ahead and is now back \nin Doris form. The soul rejoins her, vanishing from the car.\n\nAnother interesting fact about Doris is that she was a home-economics \nmajor (p. 127). Such a major is very rare these days, but was more \ncommon in the past. This allows us to place her in Mary King's days.\n\nDoris knew Martha Murrey and might easily have found out that Bax was \ndining at her home. She probably killed the neighbor Star Paxton (first \nvictim of the Hound of Horror) at the time she did so that Bax would see \nthe body.\n\nThis helps resolve the question of the identity of the \"wonderful girl\" \nin the challenge note on p. 261. We speculated it could be Doris or \nLupine. Now it seems there is no reason it couldn't be both." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T17:58:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<4BC8A279.2000609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Doris said \"I think I'll turn around and go back\" from some distance\nbehind him. This is her sending ?her soul back away (so she can take Lupine\nform).\n3) Her physical body remains with Bax, and the car keys remain in her\npossession." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't this work better if Doris body goes off and changes into\nLupine, while it is her soul (Mary King) who holds Bax's hand?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301cadd8e$8dd32500$b4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-04-16T17:59:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nA werewolf is defined in the book as a human who takes on the shape of a\nwolf. I wasn't aware that a werewolf could take on the guise of another\nhuman. (Nevermind being in two places at the same time.) What, if\nanything,\ndoes this episode say about Doris and Lupine? How did Lupine get Doris's\nkeys?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "{Hmmm...Why do you assume a bad smell means a werewolf? I thought it\nwas vampires that had a bad smell.}\n\nJust before Martha's neighbor, Star Paxton, was killed by a werewolf, Bax\nheard an animal, went outside the house and noticed \"an odor--a faint, musty\nstench.\" (p-82)\n\nAfter Doris complained of the odor in her car, Bax wrote, \"I sniffed. If I\nhad used my nose earlier, I would not have been deceived.\" (p-133) Doris\nasked how he came to have her keys. He said, \"A girl I met down at the\nriver's edge gave them to me.\" He went on to say, \"She brought the smell\nthat you complained about.\" (ibid.)\n\nThere is no doubt about it. According to Bax, Lupine took on the semblance\nof Doris and left behind a funky smell. Lupine also banished the apparition\nof the big man Bax had seen in the woods (p-134). The big man, we are told,\nlooked like Ted (ibid.).\n\n{ But I never associated the false\nDoris with Nicholas until now. Incidentally, I kinda think Mary King's\nghost might be Lupine's soul.}\n\nI don't know about that, but Bax was asking Shell about Mary King (p-157)\nbefore he picked her up (p-200). That ain't right.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BC8A944.2040307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T18:15:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n/ 2) Doris said \"I think I'll turn around and go back\" from some distance\n/>/ behind him. This is her sending her soul back away (so she can take Lupine\n/>/ form)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/>/ 3) Her physical body remains with Bax, and the car keys remain in her\n/>/ possession.\n/\nDoesn't this work better if Doris body goes off and changes into\nLupine, while it is her soul (Mary King) who holds Bax's hand?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's almost as plausible, except that when the hand-holder vanished \n\"something raced away, too big and too dark, too near the ground\" (p. \n129). That would seem to be Lupine in wolf form. If the hand-holder was \njust a soul it seems like she would simply vanish without any extra \nspecial effects, as the passenger did in the car." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T18:38:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<002301cadd8e$8dd32500$b4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, I kinda think Mary King's\nghost might be Lupine's soul.}" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know about that, but Bax was asking Shell about Mary King (p-157)\nbefore he picked her up (p-200). That ain't right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I lept to the conclusion that the letter to Shell was out of\nchronological order: that Bax wrote it after the event in the car. I\nintend to pay more attention this time around to whether that's\npossible.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T18:51:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<4BC8A944.2040307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn't this work better if Doris body goes off and changes into\nLupine, while it is her soul (Mary King) who holds Bax's hand?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hat's almost as plausible, except that when the hand-holder vanished\n\"something raced away, too big and too dark, too near the ground\" (p. 129).\nThat would seem to be Lupine in wolf form. If the hand-holder was just a\nsoul it seems like she would simply vanish without any extra special\neffects, as the passenger did in the car." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm..good point. But I just don't see how we get Doris around to being\nLupine. Granted, Lupine impersonating Doris twice is significant of\nsomething. But in each case, we have Doris Here and Lupine There (or\nthe other way around).\n\nAnd Doris seems entirely corporeal. She has a job. She eats. She has\nsex. Was apparently married. Not typical behavior of a disembodied\nsoul.\n\nFinally, I just can't get around the fact that Doris seems\nconsistently completely clueless about Faeri. For example, why would\nshe just hand over Ted's ring if she had any idea how powerful it was.\nMaybe AFTER she had bedded Bax (maaaaybe), but not before.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T19:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<000901cadcee$8ee6d4a0$edd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nLetter #18 bugs me, for two reasons. First, it is addressed to Millie, and\non p-132, right after the break, Bax wrote: \"Joe came for the car. I know I\nwrote to George about that.\" Well, no, he didn't. The first mention of Joe\ncoming out to look at the car was in the previous letter (#17, p-118), which\nwas also addressed to Millie.\n\nIs this a mistake by Wolfe, or is it a left-handed comment about the\nreliability of Bax's account of events?\n\nSecond, when Bax got back to Doris's car, a woman who apparently looked like\nDoris got in as the passenger, after he had offered to return her keys. He\ndrove and suggested that they stop somewhere to eat. She said no. He started\nto say that he would take her back to her apartment, when they saw another\nwoman standing by the road and waving. The waving woman proved to be Doris,\nand when Bax stopped for her the passenger vanished, leaving behind a funky\nsmell.\n\nA werewolf is defined in the book as a human who takes on the shape of a\nwolf. I wasn't aware that a werewolf “could take on the guise of another\nhuman. (Nevermind being in two places at the same time.) What, if anything,\ndoes this episode say about Doris and Lupine” How did Lupine get Doris's\nkeys?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't like the Doris=Lupine approach. It doesn't gel with the endgame of TSH.\n\nIf the ghost is Dorpine's soul, then how do we reconcile this with\nLupine selling her soul to a distant powerful wizard?\n\nDoris is in her 30s or 40s at least, the home ec degree aside. Is this\nconsistent with a callow teenager like Ieayan* falling in love with\nher and her with him? Lupine is clearly presented as youthful; I don't\nbelieve any accounts of werewolfs include rejuvenation or\nextraordinary longevity**.\n\nHow do we reconcile Lupin not especially liking and loathing Bax by\nthe end with Doris's like of him? Even in her last letter, she's more\nwistful than hateful.\n\nWhy would Ambrosius or Goldwurm (whichever we think Ted was this phase\nof the moon) either buy Doris's soul or tell her how to do it?\n\nWhy is it Bax who suggests that on the drive where they are attacked\nby a werewolf, he stay outside in the risky area? If Dorpine is\nscheming his murder, she should suggest that. For that matter, Doris\ndoesn't respond as Dorpine would, it seems to me. ('Curses! Foiled\nagain!')\n\nThere may be some oddities in the drive scenes which are explained by\nDorpine, but the more general considerations are difficulties.\n\n* forgotten the right spelling\n** Japanese _kitsune_ on the other hand are canonically nigh-immortal\nand can choose to appear as beautiful young women" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002f01cadda4$55eab2a0$94d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-04-16T20:35:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nI don't know about that, but Bax was asking Shell about Mary King\n(p-157)\nbefore he picked her up (p-200). That ain't right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I lept to the conclusion that the letter to Shell was out of\nchronological order: that Bax wrote it after the event in the car. I\nintend to pay more attention this time around to whether that's\npossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can tell you right now that letters #21 and #25 just being out of\nchronological order doesn't quite explain things adequately. The reason is;\nin #21 Bax asked Shell about both Skotos and Mary King, and also talked\nabout having sex with two women. He also mentioned in #21 that the incident\nwith George in the lawyer's office had occurred the night before the day he\nwas then writing. After leaving the lawyer's office that night is when he\nand Doris made the strange drive to the lake and back. In #24, Shell\ncommented on the two-women sex angle and told what he had learned about\nSkotos. In #25, Bax told the psychic about picking up Mary King on the way\nhome from the restaurant at the lake.\n\nLetters #21, 22 and 23 all make mention of events of the night of the\nmeeting with the lawyer and/or the drive to or from the lake restaurant, as\ndo letters #25 and 26. Since letter #24 references the contents of letter\n#21, and letter #21 was written after George went to jail . . . well, what\ncan I say? Somethin' ain't right.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T20:42:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<002f01cadda4$55eab2a0$94d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJames Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can tell you right now that letters #21 and #25 just being out of\nchronological order doesn't quite explain things adequately." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be honest, I believe that the comment that the letters \"may\" be\nout of sequence is a red herring, part of Wolfe's editorial \"persona.\"\n\nAs someone who's spent years reading and rereading Delany's\n_Dhalgren_, a book where things are seriously out of order, I have\nto say that I just don't see the signs of it here. It would take a\nserious smoking gun, something that _could not_ have happened\nin that order, to really convince me.\n\nMind you, I'm not saying that the letters are all in \"perfect\" order\n-- or indeed that any such \"perfect\" order is possible. When you're\ndealing with letters from multiple people to each other there is\nalways questions that arise of synchronization. But I suggest\nthat the letters are in a good _functional_ order, one that, as\nbest as possible, captures the order of events." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8904.72.171.0.142.1271452452.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-16T21:14:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a lot more happening in Dhalgren than things being seriously out\nof order.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can tell you right now that letters #21 and #25 just being out of\nchronological order doesn't quite explain things adequately." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To be honest, I believe that the comment that the letters \"may\" be\nout of sequence is a red herring, part of Wolfe's editorial \"persona.\"\n\nAs someone who's spent years reading and rereading Delany's\n_Dhalgren_, a book where things are seriously out of order, I have\nto say that I just don't see the signs of it here. It would take a\nserious smoking gun, something that _could not_ have happened\nin that order, to really convince me.\n\nMind you, I'm not saying that the letters are all in \"perfect\" order\n-- or indeed that any such \"perfect\" order is possible. When you're\ndealing with letters from multiple people to each other there is\nalways questions that arise of synchronization. But I suggest\nthat the letters are in a good _functional_ order, one that, as\nbest as possible, captures the order of events.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T21:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<8904.72.171.0.142.1271452452.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, wrote:\nThere's a lot more happening in Dhalgren than things being seriously out\nof order." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, _yes_..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-16T23:33:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a lot more happening in Dhalgren than things being seriously out\nof order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, _yes_..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I once tried to read _Dhalgren_; couldn't finish it.\n\nAs it happens, Delany was a guest this year at I-CON and I attended\none of his panels and watched a fair bit of the Delany movie; both\ncovered _Dhalgren_ at some length.\n\nI won't give any speciously specific quotes since I wasn't especially\ninterested in the comments on _Dhalgren_, but I gathered that one\nshouldn't look too hard for answers in it - Delany is definitely not\nWolfe and the significance of many of the allusions and themes is\nminimal." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9423.72.171.0.142.1271464099.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-17T00:28:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that's right.\n\nIt's a very, very bad idea to treat Dhalgren like a Wolfe book.\n\nWolfe uses unreliable narrators.\n\nDelany uses an insane narrator.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, ?? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's a lot more happening in Dhalgren than things being seriously\nout\nof order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, _yes_..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I once tried to read _Dhalgren_; couldn't finish it.\n\nAs it happens, Delany was a guest this year at I-CON and I attended\none of his panels and watched a fair bit of the Delany movie; both\ncovered _Dhalgren_ at some length.\n\nI won't give any speciously specific quotes since I wasn't especially\ninterested in the comments on _Dhalgren_, but I gathered that one\nshouldn't look too hard for answers in it - Delany is definitely not\nWolfe and the significance of many of the allusions and themes is\nminimal.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-17T00:30:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<9423.72.171.0.142.1271464099.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be contradictory, but the narrator isn't insane in _Dhalgren_.\nHowever, the viewpoint character may be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM, wrote:\nYeah, that's right.\n\nIt's a very, very bad idea to treat Dhalgren like a Wolfe book.\n\nWolfe uses unreliable narrators.\n\nDelany uses an insane narrator.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, ?? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's a lot more happening in Dhalgren than things being seriously\nout\nof order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, _yes_..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I once tried to read _Dhalgren_; couldn't finish it.\n\nAs it happens, Delany was a guest this year at I-CON and I attended\none of his panels and watched a fair bit of the Delany movie; both\ncovered _Dhalgren_ at some length.\n\nI won't give any speciously specific quotes since I wasn't especially\ninterested in the comments on _Dhalgren_, but I gathered that one\nshouldn't look too hard for answers in it - Delany is definitely not\nWolfe and the significance of many of the allusions and themes is\nminimal.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6124.72.171.0.142.1271464329.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-17T00:32:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're not being contradictory.\n\nYou're being a pedant.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be contradictory, but the narrator isn't insane in _Dhalgren_.\nHowever, the viewpoint character may be.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, that's right.\n\nIt's a very, very bad idea to treat Dhalgren like a Wolfe book.\n\nWolfe uses unreliable narrators.\n\nDelany uses an insane narrator.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, ?? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There's a lot more happening in Dhalgren than things being seriously\nout\nof order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, _yes_..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I once tried to read _Dhalgren_; couldn't finish it.\n\nAs it happens, Delany was a guest this year at I-CON and I attended\none of his panels and watched a fair bit of the Delany movie; both\ncovered _Dhalgren_ at some length.\n\nI won't give any speciously specific quotes since I wasn't especially\ninterested in the comments on _Dhalgren_, but I gathered that one\nshouldn't look too hard for answers in it - Delany is definitely not\nWolfe and the significance of many of the allusions and themes is\nminimal.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-17T00:34:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<6124.72.171.0.142.1271464329.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:32 PM, wrote:\nYou're being a pedant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On _this_ list?\n\nHeaven forfend." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10247.72.171.0.142.1271465074.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-17T00:44:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I don't think there is any doubt at all that the Kid is insane.\n\nThere may very well be something wierd going on in Bellona, but the Kid is\ndefinitely insane.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BC9065E.8010709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-04-17T00:52:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<10247.72.171.0.142.1271465074.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh Joshy\n\nIs a pedant someone who knows more about something than you do?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 20:32:09 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine\nMessage-ID: <6124.72.171.0.142.1271464329.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're not being contradictory.\n\nYou're being a pedant.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\nNot to be contradictory, but the narrator isn't insane in _Dhalgren_.\nHowever, the viewpoint character may be.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, that's right.\n\nIt's a very, very bad idea to treat Dhalgren like a Wolfe book.\n\nWolfe uses unreliable narrators.\n\nDelany uses an insane narrator.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10709.72.171.0.142.1271468491.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-04-17T01:41:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine", "in_reply_to": "<4BC9065E.8010709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh Joshy\n\nIs a pedant someone who knows more about something than you do?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 20:32:09 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) TSH: Doris and Lupine\nMessage-ID: <6124.72.171.0.142.1271464329.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're not being contradictory.\n\nYou're being a pedant.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not to be contradictory, but the narrator isn't insane in _Dhalgren_.\nHowever, the viewpoint character may be.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah, that's right.\n\nIt's a very, very bad idea to treat Dhalgren like a Wolfe book.\n\nWolfe uses unreliable narrators.\n\nDelany uses an insane narrator.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<514808.1363.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-04-17T14:45:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TSH: Wolfe's first mainstream novel?", "in_reply_to": "<10709.72.171.0.142.1271468491.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished my first VERY fast read, so pardon any incorrect details.\n\nBut I have to say that I'm taken with Thomas Bitterman's suggestion that nothing \"fantastic\" actually happened. I'm not sure how (or even if) one could prove it, but a number of things lead to the notion that what we have is just a complicated scam by one brother to scam another brother. We know that Bax was jailed for \"fraud\" of some sort, so it makes sense that he understands something about perhaps how to defraud real estate agencies or something of that nature, so there's at least the reasonable possibility that his \"good fortune\" with acquiring a house, etc., has quite other explanations. He knows about Millie's weaknesses (both in terms of her feelings for George and Bax and the fact that she already visits a psychic...who even tells Millie that she cons other patrons...but not Millie, of course). The compiler's note suggests that he got the letters from Millie after Bax disappears, so, perhaps this is all coming out after Millie realizes that\n she's been conned, etc. Millie is even jealous of Doris in her first letter, and the facefox could just be another way for Bax to play that angle up while also playing on Millie's belief in the supernatural. And I don't recall, but Bax never mentions anything supernatural in his letters to Shotgun, does he?\n\nI'm starting again, so I'll have a better notion later. But after reading Millie's first letter to Bax and seeing her naivete, I started to wonder. Bitterman's post just made sense after that.\n\n\n\n " } ] } ] }