{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5590", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5590, "subject": "Ted = Goldwurm?", "messages": 15, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-04-29T22:56:20+00:00", "last": "2010-05-03T05:20:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-29T22:56:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Griffins were supposed to guard gold. Not exactly dragons, but as Jake\nJacobson says (p214), \"Sort of like a dragon\".\n\nNot wedded to the idea, but I like it more than Ted = Ambrosius.\n\nIt might explain why Ieulan run's away from Ted's ghost, if that's what it\nwas (Emlyn at any rate seems to be afraid of Goldwurm, and wouldn't\nnecessarily know that he's been dead for a couple of years).\n\nTed's ring might be Goldwurm's weapon of power. Doris gives it to Bax just\nafter commenting on Bax's/Ambrosius' ring. Her explanation of why she does\nthis makes zero sense to me. Perhaps she did it because she's planning on\ninducing Bax to give her the other one - as a wedding ring? Maybe Ted's\nspirit is guiding her in this, somehow - he sees Bax's ring & recognises it\nas Ambrosius' weapon of power.\n\nMaybe that's why Ted's ghost wants her to be with Bax, and why it tries to\nprotect Bax (it doesn't want anybody else to get the ring).\n\nTed's ghost is actually pretty ineffectual - but maybe that could be\nexpected of the ghost of a presumably relatively junior warlock who never\nfound his master's ring. (He's not good with werewolfs - Lupine dismisses\nhim with a word, and he doesn't turn up to help out during the werewolf\nattack on Bax and Doris, despite Doris wishing he was there.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004901cae831$eb007e00$c3d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-04-30T06:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nGriffins were supposed to guard gold. Not exactly dragons, but as Jake\nJacobson says (p214), \"Sort of like a dragon\".\n\nNot wedded to the idea, but I like it more than Ted = Ambrosius.\n\nIt might explain why Ieulan run's away from Ted's ghost, if that's what it\nwas (Emlyn at any rate seems to be afraid of Goldwurm, and wouldn't\nnecessarily know that he's been dead for a couple of years).\n\nTed's ring might be Goldwurm's weapon of power. Doris gives it to Bax just\nafter commenting on Bax's/Ambrosius' ring. Her explanation of why she does\nthis makes zero sense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes no sense at all. First she tells Bax that she wants him to wear\nTed's ring so that she can see it now and then. When she next speaks it is\nto say that the sight of it breaks her heart. Then why did she have it in\nher purse? She came prepared to give it to him.\n\nThat lunch was only the second time she had even laid eyes on him, and the\nfirst time she had seen the opal ring. Something changed from her\nperspective after their brief first meeting at the real estate office. She\ntrumped up an excuse to see him again, so she may have learned something in\nthe meantime that caused her to start acting like a gold digger. I can't\nimagine why any woman would hand over her dead husband's ring to a virtual\nstranger. It's just not done.\n\nBut maybe I'm being too hard on her. That is, maybe she was subject to\nforces beyond her control and we have been making too much of the import of\nTed's ring. It may have been nothing more than a gold ring, and Bax acquired\nit for the same reason he got the opal ring and the gold coins and the stash\nof cash -- his ignorant use of the triannulus.\n\nBetween Doris's lunch note and her arrival to pick him up, Bax got out the\ntriannulus. Its three rings were still aligned to fish but \"the pointer had\nwandered away.\" (33) More importantly, he first noticed at that time that\n\"When the rings were aligned to fish, several other things fell into line as\nwell.\" Recall that among the glyphs were some that \"may be indecent.\" (26)\nWe aren't told which other glyphs also lined up or where the pointer had\nwandered away to, but it would be a good bet that one of those glyph\nalignments was \"indecent\", and its magic is what put Doris and Winker in the\nsack with Bax.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-30T07:19:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<004901cae831$eb007e00$c3d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nBetween Doris's lunch note and her arrival to pick him up, Bax got out the\ntriannulus. Its three rings were still aligned to fish but \"the pointer had\nwandered away.\" (33) More importantly, he first noticed at that time that\n\"When the rings were aligned to fish, several other things fell into line\nas\nwell.\" Recall that among the glyphs were some that \"may be indecent.\" (26)\nWe aren't told which other glyphs also lined up or where the pointer had\nwandered away to, but it would be a good bet that one of those glyph\nalignments was \"indecent\", and its magic is what put Doris and Winker in\nthe\nsack with Bax." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely - I was going to say something along the same lines but work\nintervened. I was thinking that perhaps the \"other things\" might just have\nbeen \"women\". Bax does of course get 3 women: Doris, Winkle and Millie\n(assuming Winkle counts)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<284602.7941.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-04-30T13:40:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just on Doris' motivation: she does admit in her letter that money was a big reason she was interested in him. I took that to mean that, initially, she was using him (she needed to take a potential client out, knew he at least had a house, soon learned he was inheriting profitable land, etc.), but, over time, her feelings might have changed.\n\nBut one of the reasons that I was initially attracted to the \"all a scam\" possibility was how it seemed like so many people in this book at one point or another are trying to scam someone else." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005301cae88f$359c8d20$a2d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-04-30T18:01:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nAbsolutely - I was going to say something along the same lines but work\nintervened. I was thinking that perhaps the \"other things\" might just\nhave\nbeen \"women\". Bax does of course get 3 women: Doris, Winkle and Millie\n(assuming Winkle counts)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reminds me. It has to do with the issue of who compiled the list of\ncharacters, which lists Winker as: \"Baxter Dunn's name for a friendly\nJapanese girl.\" That's not right. Winkle is the name Bax came up with for\nthe talking vixen. He later mentioned several times that he didn't even know\nthe name of the young woman who came to his bed. He first learned her name\nwhen she introduced herself to Orizia: \"This lowly person is called Winker\nInari.\" (147) Orizia was miles away in a \"trance\", her psychic visit.\n\nIs this significant, or just a mistake by Wolfe? Or is it an obscure clue?\nOr does it say something about the fictional Compiler?\n\nKeep in mind that Bax heard that name while in what Orizia insisted was a\ndream state, despite Bax's claim that he had actually climbed out a window\nand gotten lost in the woods. It was while still in the woods that he got\nthe \"faint\" phone call from Hardaway about the meeting that night with the\nlawyer, Trelawny. The phone call came while he was still engaged with\nOrizia. So I suppose that it could be argued that the name Winker Inari came\nout of Bax's head and that he did come up with that name.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<627588.65036.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-04-30T22:11:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<005301cae88f$359c8d20$a2d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an odd point, but interesting. My gut reaction is just error when Wolfe was putting together the list, but that's not as interesting as speculation. heh.\n\nCalling her \"a friendly Japanese girl\" seems to me like something \"outside the fiction,\" perhaps, and making her out to be a facefox a kind of fabrication. And on that note, I found it odd that the Asian waitress mentioned that Winker was Chinese, even though she was supposed to be Japanese. (219) So is she just generally fluent in all Asian languages? Foxes sure have a lot of cultural leeway, apparently.\n\n\nAnd I found the \"dream\" explanation odd as well. Since Orizia was still far away, perhaps it was a dream state (or something else psychic) for her even though Bax could physically move to faerie because of the house? But I'm not sure if that actually explains anything substantially, especially not about Winker's name. Perhaps because she's his familiar, anything she does is actually his doing?\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, April 30, 2010 1:01:43 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ted = Goldwurm?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nAbsolutely - I was going to say something along the same lines but work\nintervened. I was thinking that perhaps the \"other things\" might just\nhave\nbeen \"women\". Bax does of course get 3 women: Doris, Winkle and Millie\n(assuming Winkle counts)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reminds me. It has to do with the issue of who compiled the list of\ncharacters, which lists Winker as: \"Baxter Dunn's name for a friendly\nJapanese girl.\" That's not right. Winkle is the name Bax came up with for\nthe talking vixen. He later mentioned several times that he didn't even know\nthe name of the young woman who came to his bed. He first learned her name\nwhen she introduced herself to Orizia: \"This lowly person is called Winker\nInari.\" (147) Orizia was miles away in a \"trance\", her psychic visit.\n\nIs this significant, or just a mistake by Wolfe? Or is it an obscure clue?\nOr does it say something about the fictional Compiler?\n\nKeep in mind that Bax heard that name while in what Orizia insisted was a\ndream state, despite Bax's claim that he had actually climbed out a window\nand gotten lost in the woods. It was while still in the woods that he got\nthe \"faint\" phone call from Hardaway about the meeting that night with the\nlawyer, Trelawny. The phone call came while he was still engaged with\nOrizia. So I suppose that it could be argued that the name Winker Inari came\nout of Bax's head and that he did come up with that name.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<623522.59747.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-04-30T22:19:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Riverman", "in_reply_to": "<627588.65036.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another small point that may not be significant at all, but after the final showdown, Martha tells Bax: \"You have seen the Riverman. ... Not many can say that.\" But he saw *three* hairy giants, and they emerged from the forest, not the river. And since we have so many other things called River- in this book (the motel, the suburban development that the Skotos Strip becomes), is this whole Riverman thing bigger than just another example of general \"faerie\" weirdness that Bax encounters?\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eugene Zaretskiy", "address": "eugene.zar at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-04-30T22:37:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<627588.65036.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nThat's an odd point, but interesting. My gut reaction is just error when Wolfe was putting together the list, but that's not as interesting as speculation. heh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who picked up his first Wolfe book a few years ago, I have\na question: have there been any _confirmed_ errors in Wolfe books? I\nknow that there was a typographical error or three in TBotNS with\nregards to spelling of some unusual words. Have new editions of any of\nWolfe's books ever fixed errors that were significant to the\nunderstanding of a certain sitation? Has Wolfe ever commented about\nanything like that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Calling her \"a friendly Japanese girl\" seems to me like something \"outside the fiction,\" perhaps, and making her out to be a facefox a kind of fabrication. And on that note, I found it odd that the Asian waitress mentioned that Winker was Chinese, even though she was supposed to be Japanese. (219) So is she just generally fluent in all Asian languages? Foxes sure have a lot of cultural leeway, apparently.\n\n\nAnd I found the \"dream\" explanation odd as well. Since Orizia was still far away, perhaps it was a dream state (or something else psychic) for her even though Bax could physically move to faerie because of the house? But I'm not sure if that actually explains anything substantially, especially not about Winker's name. Perhaps because she's his familiar, anything she does is actually his doing?\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, April 30, 2010 1:01:43 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ted = Goldwurm?\n\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Absolutely - I was going to say something along the same lines but work\nintervened. I was thinking that perhaps the ?\"other things\" might just\nhave\nbeen \"women\". Bax does of course get 3 women: Doris, Winkle and Millie\n(assuming Winkle counts)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That reminds me. It has to do with the issue of who compiled the list of\ncharacters, which lists Winker as: \"Baxter Dunn's name for a friendly\nJapanese girl.\" That's not right. Winkle is the name Bax came up with for\nthe talking vixen. He later mentioned several times that he didn't even know\nthe name of the young woman who came to his bed. He first learned her name\nwhen she introduced herself to Orizia: \"This lowly person is called Winker\nInari.\" (147) Orizia was miles away in a \"trance\", her psychic visit.\n\nIs this significant, or just a mistake by Wolfe? Or is it an obscure clue?\nOr does it say something about the fictional Compiler?\n\nKeep in mind that Bax heard that name while in what Orizia insisted was a\ndream state, despite Bax's claim that he had actually climbed out a window\nand gotten lost in the woods. It was while still in the woods that he got\nthe \"faint\" phone call from Hardaway about the meeting that night with the\nlawyer, Trelawny. The phone call came while he was still engaged with\nOrizia. So I suppose that it could be argued that the name Winker Inari came\nout of Bax's head and that he did come up with that name.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-01T15:18:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<004901cae831$eb007e00$c3d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... that caused [Doris] to start acting like a gold digger." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Griffin\" is an excellent name for a gold digger - because that's just what\ngriffins did, at least in some old fables. See the wikipedia article on\ngriffins for a quote from one of them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301cae9b2$0e1b4880$62ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-05-02T04:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<627588.65036.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nAnd I found the \"dream\" explanation odd as well. Since Orizia was still\nfar away, perhaps it was a dream state (or something else psychic) for her\neven though Bax could physically move to faerie because of the house? <" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That whole scene is weird. Physical description seems to weigh in Orizia's\nfavor. Bax climbed out the window, got lost in the woods, met Orizia, took\nthe phone call from Hardaway, met Winker, then they made their way back to\nthe house. They couldn't get fat Orizia through his bedroom window, so Bax\nand Orizia started walking around the house, looking for a door. They came\nto another window where old Nick was tapping. Nick climbed out the window\nand Bax climbed in it, as his cell phone was ringing.\n\nThat much *seems* okay, but it's not. In the very next sentence (149), Bax\ngot out of bed and answered the phone call from Doris. In the first place,\nthe window he climbed through to get back in the house was not the same\nwindow he climbed out of. The window he entered the house by was probably\nnot even in his bedroom. But even if it had been the same window in the same\nbedroom, he should not have been in the bed. It had been established earlier\nthat the master bedroom was very large and his big bed was in the center of\nthe room (138), not under a window. That makes it all seem like a dream, but\n. . .\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<180899.61634.qm@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-05-02T05:06:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<002301cae9b2$0e1b4880$62ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of which...\nI woke from a jet lagged dream with the thought that it was Ted who killed Bax to replace HIM and get the house so he could get? to fairie.....hmm....don't have the book with me or anything, just a thought that I woke up with...hmm..\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Sat, 5/1/10, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ted = Goldwurm?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 9:43 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nAnd I found the \"dream\" explanation odd as well. Since Orizia was still\nfar away, perhaps it was a dream state (or something else psychic) for her\neven though Bax could physically move to faerie because of the house? <" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That whole scene is weird. Physical description seems to weigh in Orizia's\nfavor. Bax climbed out the window, got lost in the woods, met Orizia, took\nthe phone call from Hardaway, met Winker, then they made their way back to\nthe house. They couldn't get fat Orizia through his bedroom window, so Bax\nand Orizia started walking around the house, looking for a door. They came\nto another window where old Nick was tapping. Nick climbed out the window\nand Bax climbed in it, as his cell phone was ringing.\n\nThat much *seems* okay, but it's not. In the very next sentence (149), Bax\ngot out of bed and answered the phone call from Doris. In the first place,\nthe window he climbed through to get back in the house was not the same\nwindow he climbed out of. The window he entered the house by was probably\nnot even in his bedroom. But even if it had been the same window in the same\nbedroom, he should not have been in the bed. It had been established earlier\nthat the master bedroom was very large and his big bed was in the center of\nthe room (138), not under a window. That makes it all seem like a dream, but\n. . .\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CCB822FE0AFB65-20A8-9296@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2010-05-02T15:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<005301cae88f$359c8d20$a2d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Andrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Absolutely - I was going to say something along the same lines but \nwork\nintervened. I was thinking that perhaps the \"other things\" might \njust\nhave\nbeen \"women\". Bax does of course get 3 women: Doris, Winkle and \nMillie\n(assuming Winkle counts)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That reminds me. It has to do with the issue of who compiled the list \nof\ncharacters, which lists Winker as: \"Baxter Dunn's name for a friendly\nJapanese girl.\" That's not right. Winkle is the name Bax came up with \nfor\nthe talking vixen. He later mentioned several times that he didn't \neven know\nthe name of the young woman who came to his bed. He first learned her \nname\nwhen she introduced herself to Orizia: \"This lowly person is called \nWinker\nInari.\" (147) Orizia was miles away in a \"trance\", her psychic visit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this significant, or just a mistake by Wolfe? Or is it an obscure \nclue?\nOr does it say something about the fictional Compiler?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not a mistake; Winker is Baxter's name for her. Actually, when she\nintroduced herself to Orizia, she said her name was Winkle Inari, but \nshe\nwas speaking with a Japanese accent ...\n\nPeter" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006401caea30$ab42ec20$66cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-05-02T19:50:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Riverman", "in_reply_to": "<623522.59747.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nAnother small point that may not be significant at all, but after the\nfinal showdown, Martha tells Bax: \"You have seen the Riverman. ... Not many\ncan say that.\" But he saw *three* hairy giants, and they emerged from the\nforest, not the river. And since we have so many other things called River-\nin this book (the motel, the suburban development that the Skotos Strip\nbecomes), is this whole Riverman thing bigger than just another example of\ngeneral \"faerie\" weirdness that Bax encounters?<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to think that the Riverman (or Rivermen) is just another example of\nWolfe's catch-all notion of faerie. He did this before, in CASTLEVIEW, where\nthere was a Big Foot-like creature (or creatures) who really had little to\ndo with the Arthurian story. Also werewolves and phantom hitchhikers.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5847.72.171.0.141.1272830539.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-02T20:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Riverman", "in_reply_to": "<006401caea30$ab42ec20$66cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not Wolfe's catch-all notion of faerie.\n\nIt's the picture of faerie common to people who believe in such things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another small point that may not be significant at all, but after the\nfinal showdown, Martha tells Bax: \"You have seen the Riverman. ... Not\nmany\ncan say that.\" But he saw *three* hairy giants, and they emerged from the\nforest, not the river. And since we have so many other things called\nRiver-\nin this book (the motel, the suburban development that the Skotos Strip\nbecomes), is this whole Riverman thing bigger than just another example of\ngeneral \"faerie\" weirdness that Bax encounters?<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tend to think that the Riverman (or Rivermen) is just another example of\nWolfe's catch-all notion of faerie. He did this before, in CASTLEVIEW,\nwhere\nthere was a Big Foot-like creature (or creatures) who really had little to\ndo with the Arthurian story. Also werewolves and phantom hitchhikers.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701caea80$4fdbd180$2bd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-05-03T05:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ted = Goldwurm?", "in_reply_to": "<8CCB822FE0AFB65-20A8-9296@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Peter quoted and wrote:\nwhen she introduced herself to Orizia: \"This lowly person is called\nWinker\nInari.\" (147) Orizia was miles away in a \"trance\", her psychic visit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this significant, or just a mistake by Wolfe? Or is it an obscure\nclue?\nOr does it say something about the fictional Compiler?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not a mistake; Winker is Baxter's name for her. Actually, when she\nintroduced herself to Orizia, she said her name was Winkle Inari, but\nshe\nwas speaking with a Japanese accent ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be. But if so, she can and does turn it on and off. And where did the\nInari come from? Was it really Inali? She had no accent when she phoned Bax\nwhen he was having lunch with Doris and Jake (219), and she spoke words with\na number of \"r\"s and \"l\"s. It was only when Bax asked her if she spoke\nChinese that she said, \"Riddle bit speak.\" That was obviously affected.\n\nI will note than during that phone conversation he twice called her Winker.\nBut when he wrote the above quoted line he attributed it to Winkle. In the\nscene I outlined earlier (dream/psychic visit), Orizia seems to have\nexperienced Winkle/Winker only as a fox, yet Orizia offered her hand when\nthey introduced themselves. Bax was clearly seeing her as, \"the girl who\ncalled herself Winker Inari\" (147). In the scene she also spoke the words\n\"sorry\" and \"love\" without any difficulty. I can't imagine what Orizia saw\nwhen Winker was trying to help pull her through Bax's bedroom window (148).\nWas she using teeth or hands?\n\nIt's a puzzler.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }