{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5598", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5598, "subject": "started my second read of New Sun", "messages": 45, "voices": 15, "first": "2010-05-05T16:00:04+00:00", "last": "2010-05-30T09:05:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-05T16:00:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgive me for, inevitably I am sure, rehashing things that were probably\nwell-hashed on this list before the millenium. I've done my searching. A lot\nof these points feel familiar but I haven't found the threads that talk\nabout them.\n\n1) Sev introduces himself to Vodalus, and there is a sentence that would\nmake sense if spoken by Vodalus (\"I am a Vodalarii...\" etc) but is in the\nsame paragraph as Severian's utterance. Is Severian introducing himself to\nVodalus as a follower of Vodalus?\n\n2) Severian actually brings Triskele back to life the first time they meet,\ndoesn't he?\n\n3) Is the House Azure actually part of the House Absolute? Something about\nthe way that the Thecla khaibit talks about being amused by clients who say\nthey have been to the House Absolute, seems like she could mean \"They\nbelieve they are lying, when in reality, they are in the House Absolute\nright here in this room.\" I am given to wonder if Severian's descriptions of\nthe fake columns and the cheap cloth the Thecla khaibit wears are not\nfactual, he is either just lying to us or he is seeing what he has to\nbelieve. Also, the khaibit claiming to be brought to the House Azure on a\ncarriage, and Severian going \"oh, really she must have walked here through\nthe snow, the carriage is a lie to make her seem like more than she is\"\nseems funny if you assume that she probably hasn't gone anywhere at all,\nthat the House Azure is a storefront in Nessus and has a mirror to the\nAutarch's actual harem. The illusion lowers the reality, rather than raises\nit. I think there is a lot of that going on in this chapter - I think the\nclincher is when the khaibits says that she is just as truly Thecla as the\nThecla Severian carries in his mind.\n\n4) What might have actually been going on during the ceremony at the Feast\nof Holy Katharine? Did he actually behead the woman and then resurrect her?\nMasters Gurloes and Paleamon and the maid herself - who if I recall\ncorrectly may have been Severian's mother - must have been in on it\nbasically...which would mean they all knew he was likely the bringer of the\nNew Sun and had the whole thing planned out as a test. And the Autarch was\nprobably involved. I found Sev's comment that he was tired after the\nceremonial beheading to be interesting, I will need to watch carefully for\nhim seeming like he has exerted himself when exercising his godly powers.\n\n5) The theory that he killed her and resurrected her also makes some sense\nwhen, extremely hung over to the extent that it might not just be alchohol\nlater - he has a visitation by a Malrubius eidolon, as well as Triskele.\n\n6) Then there is that lingering scent of perfume he detects in his cabin. He\nsays \"the Thecla khaibits had been by to visit.\" But it seems that this\nmight have been a convenient time for Thecla to have visited his bed. The\nvery next day she was to be excruciated...but perhaps that was part of her\nexcrutiations? Perhaps Thecla was involved in the whole \"plot\" to catalyze\nSeverian's exegesis as the Conciliator?\n\nAnyway it's all very interesting on second read. I did not expect so much to\njump out at me after having not picked the books up in 6 years." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-05T16:06:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doing a re-read as well, but have not gotten as far as you. Only reading a\nchapter a night, and if it has been a bad day or the joints are aching too\nmuch, I may not get through a whole chapter.\n\n(1) I interpreted this to mean as you say, Sev is saying he is a follower.\nIt is a bit jarring at this point, as you don't have much backstory and it\nseems like he makes it up on the spot.\n\n(2) Not necessarily. Sev found Triskele during winter. Wounded, the cold\ncould have both slowed the bleeding and slowed the life processes. Cleaning\nand warming Triskele might have saved the dog. And he got to put his\n\"surgical skills\" (learned as a apprentice torturer) to some good use." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nForgive me for, inevitably I am sure, rehashing things that were probably\nwell-hashed on this list before the millenium. I've done my searching. A lot\nof these points feel familiar but I haven't found the threads that talk\nabout them.\n\n1) Sev introduces himself to Vodalus, and there is a sentence that would\nmake sense if spoken by Vodalus (\"I am a Vodalarii...\" etc) but is in the\nsame paragraph as Severian's utterance. Is Severian introducing himself to\nVodalus as a follower of Vodalus?\n\n2) Severian actually brings Triskele back to life the first time they meet,\ndoesn't he?\n\n3) Is the House Azure actually part of the House Absolute? Something about\nthe way that the Thecla khaibit talks about being amused by clients who say\nthey have been to the House Absolute, seems like she could mean \"They\nbelieve they are lying, when in reality, they are in the House Absolute\nright here in this room.\" I am given to wonder if Severian's descriptions of\nthe fake columns and the cheap cloth the Thecla khaibit wears are not\nfactual, he is either just lying to us or he is seeing what he has to\nbelieve. Also, the khaibit claiming to be brought to the House Azure on a\ncarriage, and Severian going \"oh, really she must have walked here through\nthe snow, the carriage is a lie to make her seem like more than she is\"\nseems funny if you assume that she probably hasn't gone anywhere at all,\nthat the House Azure is a storefront in Nessus and has a mirror to the\nAutarch's actual harem. The illusion lowers the reality, rather than raises\nit. I think there is a lot of that going on in this chapter - I think the\nclincher is when the khaibits says that she is just as truly Thecla as the\nThecla Severian carries in his mind.\n\n4) What might have actually been going on during the ceremony at the Feast\nof Holy Katharine? Did he actually behead the woman and then resurrect her?\nMasters Gurloes and Paleamon and the maid herself - who if I recall\ncorrectly may have been Severian's mother - must have been in on it\nbasically...which would mean they all knew he was likely the bringer of the\nNew Sun and had the whole thing planned out as a test. And the Autarch was\nprobably involved. I found Sev's comment that he was tired after the\nceremonial beheading to be interesting, I will need to watch carefully for\nhim seeming like he has exerted himself when exercising his godly powers.\n\n5) The theory that he killed her and resurrected her also makes some sense\nwhen, extremely hung over to the extent that it might not just be alchohol\nlater - he has a visitation by a Malrubius eidolon, as well as Triskele.\n\n6) Then there is that lingering scent of perfume he detects in his cabin.\nHe says \"the Thecla khaibits had been by to visit.\" But it seems that this\nmight have been a convenient time for Thecla to have visited his bed. The\nvery next day she was to be excruciated...but perhaps that was part of her\nexcrutiations? Perhaps Thecla was involved in the whole \"plot\" to catalyze\nSeverian's exegesis as the Conciliator?\n\nAnyway it's all very interesting on second read. I did not expect so much\nto jump out at me after having not picked the books up in 6 years.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-05T16:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nForgive me for, inevitably I am sure, rehashing things that were probably\nwell-hashed on this list before the millenium. I've done my searching. A lot\nof these points feel familiar but I haven't found the threads that talk\nabout them.\n\n1) Sev introduces himself to Vodalus, and there is a sentence that would\nmake sense if spoken by Vodalus (\"I am a Vodalarii...\" etc) but is in the\nsame paragraph as Severian's utterance. Is Severian introducing himself to\nVodalus as a follower of Vodalus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Severian actually brings Triskele back to life the first time they meet,\ndoesn't he?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) Is the House Azure actually part of the House Absolute?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arguably, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) What might have actually been going on during the ceremony at the Feast\nof Holy Katharine? Did he actually behead the woman and then resurrect her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, this seems to be smoke and mirrors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Masters Gurloes and Paleamon and the maid herself - who if I recall\ncorrectly may have been Severian's mother -" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a rather vocal contingent who believes this, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "must have been in on it\nbasically...which would mean they all knew he was likely the bringer of the\nNew Sun and had the whole thing planned out as a test." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unlikely. He has seen elevations to journeyman before and would have\nnoticed if his was different somehow." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-05T16:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for\nSeverian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust\nand unnecessary violence. I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of\nSeverian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and\nsends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day\nreturn) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix\nThrone, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you\nwere hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously\nguiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and\ncomplete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the\njourney itself?\n\nOne could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?\n\nyvt,\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5833.72.171.0.141.1273077645.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-05T16:40:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Palaemon.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for\nSeverian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust\nand unnecessary violence. I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of\nSeverian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and\nsends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day\nreturn) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix\nThrone, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you\nwere hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously\nguiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and\ncomplete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the\njourney itself?\n\nOne could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?\n\nyvt,\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-13T09:32:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<5833.72.171.0.141.1273077645.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for\nSeverian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust\nand unnecessary violence. I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of\nSeverian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and\nsends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day\nreturn) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix\nThrone, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you\nwere hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously\nguiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and\ncomplete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the\njourney itself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would not be so quick to disregard this; for example we can address\nthe issue of a danger to the Severian who is a mortal entity insomuch\nas anyone on Urth. It was addressed near the end of the series in a\nreflection of Severian himself that the very history of his world made\nhim such a likely candidate to undertake the dangerous things that he\nhas seen to in the course of his journey (don't have the line, but you\nmay remember the bit about all the boys that had died in training over\nthe years and how the bones made up much of the dust of the soil).\nSecond there is the matter of Severian's training as a torturer that\nproved invaluable in the journey itself, something of a deus ex\nmachina in itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is something that must be considered with the time traveling,\ndead raising, miracle preforming, karate chopping Severian we all know\nand love in mind. Perhaps it has something to do with the twin\nSeverian's at Apu Punchau, but that could just be Wolfe being Wolfe or\nsome of Severian's influence on the tale. What I am getting at is\nthat it was not an issue of destiny or fulfillment at all, but\neventuality. Think on the things that the Aquastor said or the\nHierodules or the talk about the Hierogrammates. There is a certain\ncyclical implication in some of what they say and at points in the\nbooks we are shown clones of people or on the ship of Tzadkiel we are\nshown a dead Severian, this is not the chosen one or a prophesy being\nplayed out this is like I said an eventuality, this is not what must\nhappen this is what happens or arguably what happened and will happen\nagain in much the same way.\n\n\nI hope that all makes sense I haven't slept in some 27 hours.\n\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-13T18:32:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Kurt Vonnegut's cartoonish Tralfamadorians to Frank Herbert's mystical Atreides guys, SF authors have struggled to convey the difficulty for a being who can simultaneously perceive multiple points in time to communicate with such limited beings as ourselves who can only directly perceive one moment at a time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think Severian's dealings with Tzadkiel and various Hiero-dudes are Gene Wolfe's attempt to tackle the problem God has in accurately and understandably conveying His message to humanity. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-13T18:50:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reformatted- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Kurt Vonnegut's cartoonish Tralfamadorians to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Frank Herbert's mystical Atreides guys, SF authors have struggled\nto convey the difficulty for a being who can simultaneously\nperceive multiple points in time to communicate with such limited\nbeings as ourselves who can only directly perceive one moment at a time.\nI think Severian's dealings with Tzadkiel and various Hiero-dudes are\nGene Wolfe's attempt to tackle the problem God has in accurately and\nunderstandably conveying His message to humanity. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-13T18:53:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee,\n\nI believe that Wolfe would say, rather than \"the problem God has in\n... conveying His\nmessage to humanity,\" \"the difficulty we have in understanding God's message.\"\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nReformatted-\nFrom Kurt Vonnegut's cartoonish Tralfamadorians to\nFrank Herbert's mystical Atreides guys, SF authors have struggled\nto convey the difficulty for a being who can simultaneously\nperceive multiple points in time to communicate with such limited\nbeings as ourselves who can only directly perceive one moment at a time.\nI think Severian's dealings with Tzadkiel and various Hiero-dudes are\nGene Wolfe's attempt to tackle the problem God has in accurately and\nunderstandably conveying His message to humanity.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-13T19:05:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a valid argument Lee, but it being Wolfe I have to ask myself does\nhe mean it to be God (probably) or is he speaking more of the Hierogrammates\nthemselves; if only an allegory for a theological truth as Wolfe sees it\nthen we can simply count it as such and simply file it away (as if anything\nwith Wolfe is ever that simple. However if the message comes from the\ndivine, the Hierogrammates, I think it could be that their message is a\nmeans to *their* own end in their existence as an end result, more cyclical\nthinking." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BED9491.4030502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T18:21:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/2010 11:28 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nOne could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Time travel. Once causality begins to loop back, there are no \ncoincidences, no probability in the chain of events. What determines the \nchain of events is that it requires the least intervention by the time \ntravellers.\n\nAnd time travel happens because it is an allegory for G-d's eternal \nnature outside of Creation, even though G-d himself also appears in the \nstory to remind us that the instruments of that intervention are flawed \nbut their employer is not." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T18:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<4BED9491.4030502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time travel. Once causality begins to loop back, there are no coincidences,\nno probability in the chain of events. What determines the chain of events\nis that it requires the least intervention by the time travellers.\n\nAnd time travel happens because it is an allegory for G-d's eternal nature\noutside of Creation, even though G-d himself also appears in the story to\nremind us that the instruments of that intervention are flawed but their\nemployer is not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would still be more efficient for Tzadkiel/Hierogrammates/whomever\nto send the White Fountain without the need for the test or\nmaneuvering Severian on the throne. While we might argue that God (or\nother such omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being) must work\nthrough intermediaries because his nature prevents direct\nintervention, Tzadkiel and the Hieros have no such restrictions. Or\ndo they just mirror their reflections in the universe above Yesod and\nact by circumspect means because in their image are they created?\n\n(Aside, and literary connection, complete with spoilers for those who\nhave not read _Anathem_: this is somewhat akin to Neal Stephenson's\nfaux-Platonic idea of \"propagation along the wick,\" where the Daban\nUrnood travels through successive iterations of Earth _backwards_\nalong a chain of ever-worsening reflections of the Platonic ideal\nEarth. Although it is interesting to note that Man of Science\nStephenson sees traveling toward \"more perfect\" universes as moving\nbackward, while for Man of Faith Wolfe doing so is traveling\n\"upward.\")\n\nAnyway, I'm overstressed at work and probably seeing things and\nconnections where none should be. Have a wonderful Friday everyone!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T18:41:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re: Anathem.\n\nI'm not sure that the metaphor is actually that different--Stephenson has\njust cloaked his religious allusion in one more degree of obscurity.\n\"Backward\" is still \"backward toward\" something, a world that various\ncharacters do call \"higher.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nTime travel. Once causality begins to loop back, there are no\ncoincidences,\nno probability in the chain of events. What determines the chain of\nevents\nis that it requires the least intervention by the time travellers.\n\nAnd time travel happens because it is an allegory for G-d's eternal\nnature\noutside of Creation, even though G-d himself also appears in the story to\nremind us that the instruments of that intervention are flawed but their\nemployer is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would still be more efficient for Tzadkiel/Hierogrammates/whomever\nto send the White Fountain without the need for the test or\nmaneuvering Severian on the throne. While we might argue that God (or\nother such omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being) must work\nthrough intermediaries because his nature prevents direct\nintervention, Tzadkiel and the Hieros have no such restrictions. Or\ndo they just mirror their reflections in the universe above Yesod and\nact by circumspect means because in their image are they created?\n\n(Aside, and literary connection, complete with spoilers for those who\nhave not read _Anathem_: this is somewhat akin to Neal Stephenson's\nfaux-Platonic idea of \"propagation along the wick,\" where the Daban\nUrnood travels through successive iterations of Earth _backwards_\nalong a chain of ever-worsening reflections of the Platonic ideal\nEarth. Although it is interesting to note that Man of Science\nStephenson sees traveling toward \"more perfect\" universes as moving\nbackward, while for Man of Faith Wolfe doing so is traveling\n\"upward.\")\n\nAnyway, I'm overstressed at work and probably seeing things and\nconnections where none should be. Have a wonderful Friday everyone!\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T18:50:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"HTW\" or Heaven of the Forms from Plato/neoplatonism and Wolfe's\ngood-natured piracy of kabbalistic terminology share a common cultural\nsource and still crop up in more modern philosophy (Leibniz,\nPlantinga, David Lewis, etc.). It's all very interesting, at least to\na philosophy geek like me.\n\nI always like it when very different authors mine the same ideas and\ncome up with differnet-sounding though very similar in form plot\npoints.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T19:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, the melting point is Plotinus, right?\n\nBy the way, Plantinga is a top-five person I've ever met in terms of\nsmarts. Just a really, really keen mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nThe \"HTW\" or Heaven of the Forms from Plato/neoplatonism and Wolfe's\ngood-natured piracy of kabbalistic terminology share a common cultural\nsource and still crop up in more modern philosophy (Leibniz,\nPlantinga, David Lewis, etc.). It's all very interesting, at least to\na philosophy geek like me.\n\nI always like it when very different authors mine the same ideas and\ncome up with differnet-sounding though very similar in form plot\npoints.\n\nLH\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T19:20:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but he looks like a demented gargoyle. And I'll never forgive\nhim for transworld depravity. I still have flashes of horror\nregarding long tutoring sessions with my sophomore philosophy of\nreligion TA trying to understand that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-14T19:26:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I almost literally ran into him once when he was out jogging--they had to\ntake me to that place in Hogwarts where they turn people back from stone to\nflesh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nYes, but he looks like a demented gargoyle. And I'll never forgive\nhim for transworld depravity. I still have flashes of horror\nregarding long tutoring sessions with my sophomore philosophy of\nreligion TA trying to understand that.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0c4c4fa7eb86ec86815f80351ff376f2.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-15T00:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would still be more efficient for Tzadkiel/Hierogrammates/whomever\nto send the White Fountain without the need for the test or\nmaneuvering Severian on the throne. While we might argue that God (or\nother such omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being) must work\nthrough intermediaries because his nature prevents direct\nintervention, Tzadkiel and the Hieros have no such restrictions. Or\ndo they just mirror their reflections in the universe above Yesod and\nact by circumspect means because in their image are they created?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they interfere as little as possible both because they are at base\nmoral creatures who know they constantly risk catastrophic changes in\ntheir \"client\" civilizations and because of limited resources, as each\ngroup of islands on Yesod is responsible for an entire galaxy in Briah.\nTzadkiel needs Severian's coming to confirm when his personal attention\nwill be needed and where along the timeline to aim the Fountain, so he is\navailable to supervise the other worlds in his teritory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Aside, and literary connection, complete with spoilers for those who\nhave not read _Anathem_: this is somewhat akin to Neal Stephenson's\nfaux-Platonic idea of \"propagation along the wick,\" where the Daban\nUrnood travels through successive iterations of Earth _backwards_\nalong a chain of ever-worsening reflections of the Platonic ideal\nEarth. Although it is interesting to note that Man of Science\nStephenson sees traveling toward \"more perfect\" universes as moving\nbackward, while for Man of Faith Wolfe doing so is traveling\n\"upward.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this could be an artifact of the borrowing from Plato; wasn't the\nHellenic cultural view of time as if they stood by a river looking\ndownstream as it carried figures of the past into the distance while those\nof the unknowable future are behind them, only the largest foreshadowed by\nripples if at all?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-15T01:21:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<0c4c4fa7eb86ec86815f80351ff376f2.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think they interfere as little as possible both because they are at base\nmoral creatures who know they constantly risk catastrophic changes in\ntheir \"client\" civilizations and because of limited resources, as each\ngroup of islands on Yesod is responsible for an entire galaxy in Briah.\nTzadkiel needs Severian's coming to confirm when his personal attention\nwill be needed and where along the timeline to aim the Fountain, so he is\navailable to supervise the other worlds in his teritory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this could be an artifact of the borrowing from Plato; wasn't the\nHellenic cultural view of time as if they stood by a river looking\ndownstream as it carried figures of the past into the distance while those\nof the unknowable future are behind them, only the largest foreshadowed by\nripples if at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes; the idea of successive \"worlds\" with higher levels of existence\nis common in many belief systems, but the unique confluence of\nHellenistic philosophy with the emerging Judaic religions (including\nsome the syncretic ones) was a major development on early\nChristianity. Since learned men in the first few centuries AD\nwould've studied what we know consider classical Greek philosophy, all\nof the Church fathers were well-versed in it, and consequently it has\nbecome something of a part of the Christian folk ideas about heaven\nand hell. But even in other mythic sources (like Norse mythology) we\nget the idea of successive levels of reality up and down the world\ntree... and Wolfe drew this exact parallel in TWK.\n\nIt's a case of nothing new under the sun; really... every \"great idea\"\nwe have goes back to these very early ideas. All we can say is that\nout new learnings seem more like clarifications of what we've found\nout before. Which of course Plato would agree with and say, \"Duh,\nmodernity. See what I wrote in the _Meno_? I got this covered.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-15T02:41:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plato to modernity: \"Thanks for the footnotes.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI think they interfere as little as possible both because they are at\nbase\nmoral creatures who know they constantly risk catastrophic changes in\ntheir \"client\" civilizations and because of limited resources, as each\ngroup of islands on Yesod is responsible for an entire galaxy in Briah.\nTzadkiel needs Severian's coming to confirm when his personal attention\nwill be needed and where along the timeline to aim the Fountain, so he is\navailable to supervise the other worlds in his teritory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think this could be an artifact of the borrowing from Plato; wasn't the\nHellenic cultural view of time as if they stood by a river looking\ndownstream as it carried figures of the past into the distance while\nthose\nof the unknowable future are behind them, only the largest foreshadowed\nby\nripples if at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes; the idea of successive \"worlds\" with higher levels of existence\nis common in many belief systems, but the unique confluence of\nHellenistic philosophy with the emerging Judaic religions (including\nsome the syncretic ones) was a major development on early\nChristianity. Since learned men in the first few centuries AD\nwould've studied what we know consider classical Greek philosophy, all\nof the Church fathers were well-versed in it, and consequently it has\nbecome something of a part of the Christian folk ideas about heaven\nand hell. But even in other mythic sources (like Norse mythology) we\nget the idea of successive levels of reality up and down the world\ntree... and Wolfe drew this exact parallel in TWK.\n\nIt's a case of nothing new under the sun; really... every \"great idea\"\nwe have goes back to these very early ideas. All we can say is that\nout new learnings seem more like clarifications of what we've found\nout before. Which of course Plato would agree with and say, \"Duh,\nmodernity. See what I wrote in the _Meno_? I got this covered.\"\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-15T05:50:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, Palaemon gave Severian Terminus Est and advice about his journey\nto Thrax. When he is doing this, he becomes confused and tells Severian the\nwrong direction, which made me think that Palaemon had gone South ( whereas\nSev is sent North) himself as a younger man. Gurloes is the strange and\nslighty creepy master who uses the powder and the metal phallus. Umm, what\na weirdo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nIt seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for\nSeverian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust\nand unnecessary violence. I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of\nSeverian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and\nsends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day\nreturn) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix\nThrone, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you\nwere hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously\nguiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and\ncomplete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the\njourney itself?\n\nOne could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?\n\nyvt,\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4030.67.142.130.16.1273905103.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-15T06:31:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gurloes is a very unhappy man.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, Palaemon gave Severian Terminus Est and advice about his journey\nto Thrax. When he is doing this, he becomes confused and tells Severian\nthe\nwrong direction, which made me think that Palaemon had gone South (\nwhereas\nSev is sent North) himself as a younger man. Gurloes is the strange and\nslighty creepy master who uses the powder and the metal phallus. Umm,\nwhat\na weirdo.\n\nOn Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for\nSeverian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust\nand unnecessary violence. I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of\nSeverian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and\nsends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day\nreturn) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix\nThrone, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you\nwere hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously\nguiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and\ncomplete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the\njourney itself?\n\nOne could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?\n\nyvt,\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<65434272-D54B-4069-9B37-07C8992622C3@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-15T15:15:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I realized that after I wrote it. I typically only respond at work when I'm away from my books.\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 15, 2010, at 12:50 AM, aaron wrote:\nActually, Palaemon gave Severian Terminus Est and advice about his journey to Thrax. When he is doing this, he becomes confused and tells Severian the wrong direction, which made me think that Palaemon had gone South ( whereas Sev is sent North) himself as a younger man. Gurloes is the strange and slighty creepy master who uses the powder and the metal phallus. Umm, what a weirdo.\n\nOn Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nIt seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for\nSeverian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust\nand unnecessary violence. I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of\nSeverian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and\nsends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day\nreturn) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix\nThrone, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you\nwere hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously\nguiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and\ncomplete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the\njourney itself?\n\nOne could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian\ncoincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a\ncertain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a\nscheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?\n\nyvt,\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<710794.6154.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-16T03:47:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gurloes doesn't use the powder and the dildo that we see (as far as I remember). He just has them in case he needs them, but in the situation Severian mentions, Gurloes manages without them.\n\nHe has a job where he's sometimes required to rape people. I think any way he deals with that has to be creepy--except quitting, which probably wouldn't work out well for him, especially since nobody's looking after his destiny.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T18:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<710794.6154.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that Wolfe would say, rather than \"the problem God has in\n... conveying His message to humanity,\" \"the difficulty we have in\n understanding God's message.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but it being Wolfe I have to ask myself does" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "he mean it to be God (probably) or is he speaking more of the Hierogrammates\n\nMy interpretation of the subtext of the Sun series is this- There is not a\nvast, empty gap between humanity and God (the Increate/Outsider etc.). Just as\nthere are lower creatures than human, there are higher ones, in a \nsuccession increasingly closer to God. We see an illustration of the\nprogression in the rapid evolution of Zak from shapeless blob to mammal\nto primate to man to superman to archangel Tzadkiel. \n \nI think there is the implication that Tzadkiel and her race are not the \nfinal stage...there are many beings more advanced still. But these beings\nare so far advanced from humanity that meaningful communication is impossible.\nThus communication from God/Increate must be imperfectly imparted to humanity\nby such imperfect (yet still superior) beings such as angels.\n \nMy further guess (in part from Wolfe interviews) is that he thinks that\nhumanity was in some fashion in closer contact with these superhuman beings\nin the past. Thus the origin of our mythologies of angels, ancient pantheons\nof gods, demigods,etc. Furthermore, those superior beings who diverged from\nthe path of evolution toward God became our mythological demons and monsters,\nvampires,etc. Of course, ultimately they serve the purpose of the Increate also.\n \nI'm not sure, but, going out on a limb, it might be that Wolfe considers the\nevolutionary path toward the Increate to be a circular one. Thus the problem\nof communication between Man and God is simultaneously a problem\nfor Him and for His ultimate successor, ourselves. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T18:21:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI'm not sure, but, going out on a limb, it might be that Wolfe considers the\nevolutionary path toward the Increate to be a circular one. Thus the problem\nof communication between Man and God is simultaneously a problem\nfor Him and for His ultimate successor, ourselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For Wolfe as a Catholic, this idea would be very deep heresy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T18:39:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure, but, going out on a limb, it might be that Wolfe considers\nthe\nevolutionary path toward the Increate to be a circular one. Thus the\nproblem\nof communication between Man and God is simultaneously a problem\nfor Him and for His ultimate successor, ourselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For Wolfe as a Catholic, this idea would be very deep heresy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless you dress it up real fancy, Teilhard de Chardin-style." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T18:41:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure, but, going out on a limb, it might be that Wolfe considers\nthe\nevolutionary path toward the Increate to be a circular one. Thus the\nproblem\nof communication between Man and God is simultaneously a problem\nfor Him and for His ultimate successor, ourselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For Wolfe as a Catholic, this idea would be very deep heresy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless you dress it up real fancy, Teilhard de Chardin-style.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T19:01:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhile de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which has not, of course, kept Roman Catholic authors from utilizing\nhis philosophy and theology as the basis for their stories.\n\nI think Wolfe, unlike Simmons, might stop short of saying that man\nwill surpass God as the Hieros surpassed Man. The idea of man\ncreating his superior is not foreign to sf; robotics (and more\nrecently) genetic manipulation have produced many such stories. The\ntrope of the created surpassing the creator, the student defeating the\nmaster, etc., is a very common one.\n\nBut Wolfe (who loves to f$%! with tropes) might be stopping this one\nup a bit short. Maybe the evolution isn't so much circular as it is\nspiral-shaped... ever increasing but always falling short of the true\nmajesty of the Increate because no matter how great the successive\nlower-universe iterations get, all the way from protozoa to\nHierogrammates to angels or whatever, they are all still bounded by\ntemporality and being subject to this notion of change from one thing\nto the other, of growth. The very potential for change and becoming\ngreater necessarily acts as a self-imposed limit by making such\ncreatures subject to the flow of time. The Increate, by being outside\ntime proper (whence a name like \"Outsider?\") is therefore in no danger\nof ever changing or becoming \"better.\" Such commonplace relational\nnotions as \"better\" or \"worse\" do not apply to such a being.\n\nThe very possibility of evolution, then, the great strength of\nmortality, is also a limiting a condition that would prevent the\nTeilhardian \"final evolution.\"\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T19:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but he has recently been given a +1 by the Holy Father:\n\nhttp://ncronline.org/news/ecology/pope-cites-teilhardian-vision-cosmos-living-host" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T19:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's heresy to say that man will \"replace\" God.\n\nIt would not be heresy to suggest that the purpose of divine grace is for\nmankind to gradual become more like God. In fact that is orthodoxy (there's\neven a cool word for it, theosis, the process of becoming like God). And\ngiven infinite time and God's own infinitity, mankind will infinitely *divinize\n*without reaching *divinity.*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWhile de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, but he has recently been given a +1 by the Holy Father:\n\n\nhttp://ncronline.org/news/ecology/pope-cites-teilhardian-vision-cosmos-living-host\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T19:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All that is true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 12:16 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nIt's heresy to say that man will \"replace\" God.\n\nIt would not be heresy to suggest that the purpose of divine grace is for\nmankind to gradual become more like God. In fact that is orthodoxy (there's\neven a cool word for it, theosis, the process of becoming like God). And\ngiven infinite time and God's own infinitity, mankind will infinitely\ndivinize without reaching divinity.\n\nOn Mon, May 17, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "While de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True, but he has recently been given a +1 by the Holy Father:\n\n\nhttp://ncronline.org/news/ecology/pope-cites-teilhardian-vision-cosmos-living-host\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF19A4B.3030405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-05-17T19:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is perhaps the best description/explanation for what Wolfe \"seems\" \nto be doing in NS as I have seen. I've had a difficult time grasping the \nIncreate's purpose in all the hugger-mugger of BOTNS. Treating this idea \nas an existing SF trope to which Wolfe formulates a penetrating response \nmakes it work for me, and it fits Wolfe's interest in the \"wrong\" path \nbeing just as good as the \"right\" path if it takes one to the same \nplace. Also, there is the (Platonic? Older?) idea of all matter in the \nuniverse striving to purge itself and rejoin God/become divine, which if \nconsidered a basic material force in the universe makes much more sense \nas the basis for such a vast \"conspiracy\" than some deistic tinkerer \ncreating and destroying universes in succession with absolute \ninefficiency when he could just as well ... not create anything at all. \nIf every race, every atom experiences this \"Uplift\" effect then it is \nclearly something inherent in all things. The mechanism by which this \noccurs for each race becomes less important to work out. There remains a \ncertain cheesiness to the whole scheme, but I take that as comedy, as \nwell as a celebration of pulp SF. ------------------------------ \nMessage: 7 Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:01:45 -0500 From: Lane Haygood \n To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) started my second read of New Sun Message-ID: \n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1:41 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhile de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which has not, of course, kept Roman Catholic authors from utilizing\nhis philosophy and theology as the basis for their stories.\n\nI think Wolfe, unlike Simmons, might stop short of saying that man\nwill surpass God as the Hieros surpassed Man. The idea of man\ncreating his superior is not foreign to sf; robotics (and more\nrecently) genetic manipulation have produced many such stories. The\ntrope of the created surpassing the creator, the student defeating the\nmaster, etc., is a very common one.\n\nBut Wolfe (who loves to f$%! with tropes) might be stopping this one\nup a bit short. Maybe the evolution isn't so much circular as it is\nspiral-shaped... ever increasing but always falling short of the true\nmajesty of the Increate because no matter how great the successive\nlower-universe iterations get, all the way from protozoa to\nHierogrammates to angels or whatever, they are all still bounded by\ntemporality and being subject to this notion of change from one thing\nto the other, of growth. The very potential for change and becoming\ngreater necessarily acts as a self-imposed limit by making such\ncreatures subject to the flow of time. The Increate, by being outside\ntime proper (whence a name like \"Outsider?\") is therefore in no danger\nof ever changing or becoming \"better.\" Such commonplace relational\nnotions as \"better\" or \"worse\" do not apply to such a being.\n\nThe very possibility of evolution, then, the great strength of\nmortality, is also a limiting a condition that would prevent the\nTeilhardian \"final evolution.\"\n\nLH\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T21:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nOn Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which has not, of course, kept Roman Catholic authors from utilizing\nhis philosophy and theology as the basis for their stories.\n\nI think Wolfe, unlike Simmons, might stop short of saying that man\nwill surpass God as the Hieros surpassed Man. ?The idea of man\ncreating his superior is not foreign to sf; robotics (and more\nrecently) genetic manipulation have produced many such stories. ?The\ntrope of the created surpassing the creator, the student defeating the\nmaster, etc., is a very common one.\n\nBut Wolfe (who loves to f$%! with tropes) might be stopping this one\nup a bit short. ?Maybe the evolution isn't so much circular as it is\nspiral-shaped... ever increasing but always falling short of the true\nmajesty of the Increate because no matter how great the successive\nlower-universe iterations get, all the way from protozoa to\nHierogrammates to angels or whatever, they are all still bounded by\ntemporality and being subject to this notion of change from one thing\nto the other, of growth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spiral-shaped? Come on, this isn't R.A. Laffferty or _Tengen Toppen\nGurren Lagann_. :)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-17T21:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nSpiral-shaped? Come on, this isn't R.A. Laffferty or _Tengen Toppen\nGurren Lagann_. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A, yes, Lafferty ... another fine Catholic SF writer ..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF1E9C6.2090808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-18T01:13:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that Wolfe would say, rather than \"the problem God has in\n... conveying His message to humanity,\" \"the difficulty we have in\n understanding God's message.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but it being Wolfe I have to ask myself does" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "he mean it to be God (probably) or is he speaking more of the Hierogrammates\n\nMy interpretation of the subtext of the Sun series is this- There is not a\nvast, empty gap between humanity and God (the Increate/Outsider etc.).\n\nBased on the Cock and the Eagle, I'd have to say there is such a gap.\n\nIt just doesn't start immediately above humanity.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-18T12:36:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<4BF1E9C6.2090808@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In regard to Gene Wolfe as heretic, I'm not sure he'd reject that label.\nPerhaps he'd embrace it. From the Larry McCaffery interview:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW- \"I am a practicing Catholic, although I don't think that\ndesignation would give people much of an idea about what my beliefs\nare. People tend to have a very limited, stereotyped view of what it\nmeans to be a Catholic....I certainly don't dismiss religious or other\nmystical forms of speculation out of hand. I read it and try to make my\nown judgments about it. And in The Book of the New Sun I tried to work\nout some of the implications of my beliefs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moving beyond established religious dogma seems to be an important part\nof both Severian's and Silk's journeys.\n \nI too liked Lane Haygood's post and perhaps Wolfe does view spiritual evolution\nas an assymptotic spiral, approaching but never reaching ultimate divinity. I \ncertainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would replace God.\n \nStill, I'm willing to consider circularity as a possibility. I think the \nsection which describes the attachment to the person of the monarch as both\nthe lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration. It reminds\nme of God declaring he is Alpha and Omega. This always struck me as a circular\nrather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be both the\nbeginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an earlier point\nin spiritual evolution.\n \nPart of Tzadkiel's semi-divine nature is the ability to traverse a universe and\nperceive multiple points in time simultaneously. I think the natural progression\nfrom that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and perceive all\npoints in time simultaneously. As Lane posits, a way to accomplish this\nwould be to exist outside all time and space.\n \nBut perhaps what David Stockhoff hints at is another path to ultimate divinity.\nInstead of being outside the whole shebang, a being could gain multi-universal\npresence and perception by becoming one with all the substance of all universes.\nThus God would not be outside creation and evolution but the very essence of it,\nsimultaneously the beginning and end and everything in between. To me, that\nfeels more like Wolfe's Increate than a remote, external entity does.\n \nBut I qualified as being out on a limb from the beginning on this and I freely\nadmit it could be a projection of my own spiritual leanings rather than\nthose of Gene Wolfe's.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2804.75.31.54.193.1274186742.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-18T12:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's orthodox.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In regard to Gene Wolfe as heretic, I'm not sure he'd reject that label.\nPerhaps he'd embrace it. From the Larry McCaffery interview:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW- \"I am a practicing Catholic, although I don't think that\ndesignation would give people much of an idea about what my beliefs\nare. People tend to have a very limited, stereotyped view of what it\nmeans to be a Catholic....I certainly don't dismiss religious or other\nmystical forms of speculation out of hand. I read it and try to make my\nown judgments about it. And in The Book of the New Sun I tried to work\nout some of the implications of my beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moving beyond established religious dogma seems to be an important part\nof both Severian's and Silk's journeys.\n\nI too liked Lane Haygood's post and perhaps Wolfe does view spiritual\nevolution\nas an assymptotic spiral, approaching but never reaching ultimate\ndivinity. I\ncertainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would replace\nGod.\n\nStill, I'm willing to consider circularity as a possibility. I think the\nsection which describes the attachment to the person of the monarch as\nboth\nthe lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration. It\nreminds\nme of God declaring he is Alpha and Omega. This always struck me as a\ncircular\nrather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be both\nthe\nbeginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an earlier\npoint\nin spiritual evolution.\n\nPart of Tzadkiel's semi-divine nature is the ability to traverse a\nuniverse and\nperceive multiple points in time simultaneously. I think the natural\nprogression\nfrom that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and perceive\nall\npoints in time simultaneously. As Lane posits, a way to accomplish this\nwould be to exist outside all time and space.\n\nBut perhaps what David Stockhoff hints at is another path to ultimate\ndivinity.\nInstead of being outside the whole shebang, a being could gain\nmulti-universal\npresence and perception by becoming one with all the substance of all\nuniverses.\nThus God would not be outside creation and evolution but the very essence\nof it,\nsimultaneously the beginning and end and everything in between. To me,\nthat\nfeels more like Wolfe's Increate than a remote, external entity does.\n\nBut I qualified as being out on a limb from the beginning on this and I\nfreely\nadmit it could be a projection of my own spiritual leanings rather than\nthose of Gene Wolfe's.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-18T12:52:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<2804.75.31.54.193.1274186742.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the clear meaning of his statement in the Larry McCaffery interview\nis that there's a bit more room for intellectual play within the confines of\northodox Catholicism than stereotypes would suggest. I'm fairly sure he can\nsay all three Creeds without lying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:45 AM, wrote:\nHe's orthodox.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In regard to Gene Wolfe as heretic, I'm not sure he'd reject that label.\nPerhaps he'd embrace it. From the Larry McCaffery interview:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "GW- \"I am a practicing Catholic, although I don't think that\ndesignation would give people much of an idea about what my beliefs\nare. People tend to have a very limited, stereotyped view of what it\nmeans to be a Catholic....I certainly don't dismiss religious or other\nmystical forms of speculation out of hand. I read it and try to make my\nown judgments about it. And in The Book of the New Sun I tried to work\nout some of the implications of my beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Moving beyond established religious dogma seems to be an important part\nof both Severian's and Silk's journeys.\n\nI too liked Lane Haygood's post and perhaps Wolfe does view spiritual\nevolution\nas an assymptotic spiral, approaching but never reaching ultimate\ndivinity. I\ncertainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would replace\nGod.\n\nStill, I'm willing to consider circularity as a possibility. I think the\nsection which describes the attachment to the person of the monarch as\nboth\nthe lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration. It\nreminds\nme of God declaring he is Alpha and Omega. This always struck me as a\ncircular\nrather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be both\nthe\nbeginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an\nearlier\npoint\nin spiritual evolution.\n\nPart of Tzadkiel's semi-divine nature is the ability to traverse a\nuniverse and\nperceive multiple points in time simultaneously. I think the natural\nprogression\nfrom that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and\nperceive\nall\npoints in time simultaneously. As Lane posits, a way to accomplish this\nwould be to exist outside all time and space.\n\nBut perhaps what David Stockhoff hints at is another path to ultimate\ndivinity.\nInstead of being outside the whole shebang, a being could gain\nmulti-universal\npresence and perception by becoming one with all the substance of all\nuniverses.\nThus God would not be outside creation and evolution but the very essence\nof it,\nsimultaneously the beginning and end and everything in between. To me,\nthat\nfeels more like Wolfe's Increate than a remote, external entity does.\n\nBut I qualified as being out on a limb from the beginning on this and I\nfreely\nadmit it could be a projection of my own spiritual leanings rather than\nthose of Gene Wolfe's.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2834.75.31.54.193.1274187462.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-18T12:57:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's right.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the clear meaning of his statement in the Larry McCaffery\ninterview\nis that there's a bit more room for intellectual play within the confines\nof\northodox Catholicism than stereotypes would suggest. I'm fairly sure he\ncan\nsay all three Creeds without lying.\n\nOn Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:45 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's orthodox.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In regard to Gene Wolfe as heretic, I'm not sure he'd reject that\nlabel.\nPerhaps he'd embrace it. From the Larry McCaffery interview:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "GW- \"I am a practicing Catholic, although I don't think that\ndesignation would give people much of an idea about what my beliefs\nare. People tend to have a very limited, stereotyped view of what it\nmeans to be a Catholic....I certainly don't dismiss religious or other\nmystical forms of speculation out of hand. I read it and try to make\nmy\nown judgments about it. And in The Book of the New Sun I tried to work\nout some of the implications of my beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Moving beyond established religious dogma seems to be an important\npart\nof both Severian's and Silk's journeys.\n\nI too liked Lane Haygood's post and perhaps Wolfe does view spiritual\nevolution\nas an assymptotic spiral, approaching but never reaching ultimate\ndivinity. I\ncertainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would\nreplace\nGod.\n\nStill, I'm willing to consider circularity as a possibility. I think\nthe\nsection which describes the attachment to the person of the monarch as\nboth\nthe lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It\nreminds\nme of God declaring he is Alpha and Omega. This always struck me as a\ncircular\nrather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be\nboth\nthe\nbeginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an\nearlier\npoint\nin spiritual evolution." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Part of Tzadkiel's semi-divine nature is the ability to traverse a\nuniverse and\nperceive multiple points in time simultaneously. I think the natural\nprogression\nfrom that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and\nperceive\nall\npoints in time simultaneously. As Lane posits, a way to accomplish\nthis\nwould be to exist outside all time and space.\n\nBut perhaps what David Stockhoff hints at is another path to ultimate\ndivinity.\nInstead of being outside the whole shebang, a being could gain\nmulti-universal\npresence and perception by becoming one with all the substance of all\nuniverses.\nThus God would not be outside creation and evolution but the very\nessence\nof it,\nsimultaneously the beginning and end and everything in between. To me,\nthat\nfeels more like Wolfe's Increate than a remote, external entity does.\n\nBut I qualified as being out on a limb from the beginning on this and\nI\nfreely\nadmit it could be a projection of my own spiritual leanings rather\nthan\nthose of Gene Wolfe's.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<800875.87855.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-18T13:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<4BF19A4B.3030405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This idea reminds me of (the decidedly UN-Catholic) Milton's notion of a spectrum of purity among levels of existence in Paradise Lost. The angel Raphael explains this to Adam:\n\n\nO Adam, one Almighty is, from whom\nAll things proceed, and up to him return,\nIf not deprav?d from good, created all\nSuch to perfection, one first matter all,\nIndu?d with various forms, various degrees\nOf substance, and in things that live, of life;\nBut more refin?d, more spirituous, and pure,\nAs nearer to him plac?t or nearer tending\nEach in thir several active Spheres assign?d,\nTill body up to spirit work, in bounds\nProportion?d to each kind. So from the root\nSprings lighter the green stalk, from thence the \nleaves\nMore aery, last the bright consummate flow?r\nSpirits odorous breathes: flow?rs and thir fruit\nMan’s nourishment, by gradual scale sublim?d\nTo vital spirits aspire, to animal,\nTo intellectual, give both life and sense,\nFancy and understanding, whence the Soul\nReason receives, and reason is her being,\nDiscursive, or Intuitive; discourse\nIs oftest yours, the latter most is ours,\nDiffering but in degree, of kind the same. (5. \n469-490)\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Mon, May 17, 2010 2:34:35 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) started my second read of New Sun\n\nThis is perhaps the best description/explanation for what Wolfe \"seems\" to be doing in NS as I have seen. I've had a difficult time grasping the Increate's purpose in all the hugger-mugger of BOTNS. Treating this idea as an existing SF trope to which Wolfe formulates a penetrating response makes it work for me, and it fits Wolfe's interest in the \"wrong\" path being just as good as the \"right\" path if it takes one to the same place. Also, there is the (Platonic? Older?) idea of all matter in the universe striving to purge itself and rejoin God/become divine, which if considered a basic material force in the universe makes much more sense as the basis for such a vast \"conspiracy\" than some deistic tinkerer creating and destroying universes in succession with absolute inefficiency when he could just as well ... not create anything at all. If every race, every atom experiences this \"Uplift\" effect then it is clearly something inherent in all things. The\n mechanism by which this occurs for each race becomes less important to work out. There remains a certain cheesiness to the whole scheme, but I take that as comedy, as well as a celebration of pulp SF. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:01:45 -0500 From: Lane Haygood To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: Re: (urth) started my second read of New Sun Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe\n\"warnings\" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which has not, of course, kept Roman Catholic authors from utilizing\nhis philosophy and theology as the basis for their stories.\n\nI think Wolfe, unlike Simmons, might stop short of saying that man\nwill surpass God as the Hieros surpassed Man. The idea of man\ncreating his superior is not foreign to sf; robotics (and more\nrecently) genetic manipulation have produced many such stories. The\ntrope of the created surpassing the creator, the student defeating the\nmaster, etc., is a very common one.\n\nBut Wolfe (who loves to f$%! with tropes) might be stopping this one\nup a bit short. Maybe the evolution isn't so much circular as it is\nspiral-shaped... ever increasing but always falling short of the true\nmajesty of the Increate because no matter how great the successive\nlower-universe iterations get, all the way from protozoa to\nHierogrammates to angels or whatever, they are all still bounded by\ntemporality and being subject to this notion of change from one thing\nto the other, of growth. The very potential for change and becoming\ngreater necessarily acts as a self-imposed limit by making such\ncreatures subject to the flow of time. The Increate, by being outside\ntime proper (whence a name like \"Outsider?\") is therefore in no danger\nof ever changing or becoming \"better.\" Such commonplace relational\nnotions as \"better\" or \"worse\" do not apply to such a being.\n\nThe very possibility of evolution, then, the great strength of\nmortality, is also a limiting a condition that would prevent the\nTeilhardian \"final evolution.\"\n\nLH\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF29DA7.1020207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-18T14:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<4BF1E9C6.2090808@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2010 8:13 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that Wolfe would say, rather than \"the problem God has in\n... conveying His message to humanity,\" \"the difficulty we have in\nunderstanding God's message.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but it being Wolfe I have to ask myself does\nhe mean it to be God (probably) or is he speaking more of the\nHierogrammates" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My interpretation of the subtext of the Sun series is this- There is not a\nvast, empty gap between humanity and God (the Increate/Outsider etc.).\n\nBased on the Cock and the Eagle, I'd have to say there is such a gap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you man the cock and the angel, that's the angel's opinion. However, \nthe angel turns out to be wrong about the fundamental moral of the \nstory, and IIRC the angel makes his statement about the Increate's \nseparation while he is without his angel-nature; having removed that, he \nhas placed himself that much further from the Increate.\n\nIt's ambiguous, I'm jus sayin'" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF30D1C.7080208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-05-18T21:56:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<4BF29DA7.1020207@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, the great thing about a \"spiral\" evolutionary scheme is that \nis it both circular AND linear and can easily be asymptotic as well. \n\"Circular\" and \"linear\" answer the question of human relation to God too \nneatly and put an end to further questions ... \n------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 \n08:36:19 -0400 From: Lee Berman To: \n Subject: (urth) started my second read of New Sun \nMessage-ID: Content-Type: \ntext/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\" ...\n\n \nI too liked Lane Haygood's post and perhaps Wolfe does view spiritual evolution\nas an assymptotic spiral, approaching but never reaching ultimate divinity. I \ncertainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would replace God.\n \nStill, I'm willing to consider circularity as a possibility. I think the \nsection which describes the attachment to the person of the monarch as both\nthe lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration. It reminds\nme of God declaring he is Alpha and Omega. This always struck me as a circular\nrather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be both the\nbeginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an earlier point\nin spiritual evolution.\n \nPart of Tzadkiel's semi-divine nature is the ability to traverse a universe and\nperceive multiple points in time simultaneously. I think the natural progression\nfrom that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and perceive all\npoints in time simultaneously. As Lane posits, a way to accomplish this\nwould be to exist outside all time and space.\n \n..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C022723.1010803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-30T08:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/14/2010 8:21 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI think they interfere as little as possible both because they are at base\nmoral creatures who know they constantly risk catastrophic changes in\ntheir \"client\" civilizations and because of limited resources, as each\ngroup of islands on Yesod is responsible for an entire galaxy in Briah.\nTzadkiel needs Severian's coming to confirm when his personal attention\nwill be needed and where along the timeline to aim the Fountain, so he is\navailable to supervise the other worlds in his teritory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you see a flaw, I'm open to criticism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<99a6f26b812f2fcf9a3e16b59e191cce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-30T09:05:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) started my second read of New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<4C022723.1010803@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no specific flaw.\n\nI am not looking for any, really.\n\nI am sure I could find one, or make one up.\n\nBut I won't, this once.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/14/2010 8:21 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think they interfere as little as possible both because they are at\nbase\nmoral creatures who know they constantly risk catastrophic changes in\ntheir \"client\" civilizations and because of limited resources, as each\ngroup of islands on Yesod is responsible for an entire galaxy in Briah.\nTzadkiel needs Severian's coming to confirm when his personal attention\nwill be needed and where along the timeline to aim the Fountain, so he\nis\navailable to supervise the other worlds in his teritory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you see a flaw, I'm open to criticism.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }