Subject: (urth) started my second read of New Sun

From: Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:00:04 +0000

Forgive me for, inevitably I am sure, rehashing things that were probably
well-hashed on this list before the millenium. I've done my searching. A lot
of these points feel familiar but I haven't found the threads that talk
about them.

1) Sev introduces himself to Vodalus, and there is a sentence that would
make sense if spoken by Vodalus ("I am a Vodalarii..." etc) but is in the
same paragraph as Severian's utterance. Is Severian introducing himself to
Vodalus as a follower of Vodalus?

2) Severian actually brings Triskele back to life the first time they meet,
doesn't he?

3) Is the House Azure actually part of the House Absolute? Something about
the way that the Thecla khaibit talks about being amused by clients who say
they have been to the House Absolute, seems like she could mean "They
believe they are lying, when in reality, they are in the House Absolute
right here in this room." I am given to wonder if Severian's descriptions of
the fake columns and the cheap cloth the Thecla khaibit wears are not
factual, he is either just lying to us or he is seeing what he has to
believe. Also, the khaibit claiming to be brought to the House Azure on a
carriage, and Severian going "oh, really she must have walked here through
the snow, the carriage is a lie to make her seem like more than she is"
seems funny if you assume that she probably hasn't gone anywhere at all,
that the House Azure is a storefront in Nessus and has a mirror to the
Autarch's actual harem. The illusion lowers the reality, rather than raises
it. I think there is a lot of that going on in this chapter - I think the
clincher is when the khaibits says that she is just as truly Thecla as the
Thecla Severian carries in his mind.

4) What might have actually been going on during the ceremony at the Feast
of Holy Katharine? Did he actually behead the woman and then resurrect her?
Masters Gurloes and Paleamon and the maid herself - who if I recall
correctly may have been Severian's mother - must have been in on it
basically...which would mean they all knew he was likely the bringer of the
New Sun and had the whole thing planned out as a test. And the Autarch was
probably involved. I found Sev's comment that he was tired after the
ceremonial beheading to be interesting, I will need to watch carefully for
him seeming like he has exerted himself when exercising his godly powers.

5) The theory that he killed her and resurrected her also makes some sense
when, extremely hung over to the extent that it might not just be alchohol
later - he has a visitation by a Malrubius eidolon, as well as Triskele.

6) Then there is that lingering scent of perfume he detects in his cabin. He
says "the Thecla khaibits had been by to visit." But it seems that this
might have been a convenient time for Thecla to have visited his bed. The
very next day she was to be excruciated...but perhaps that was part of her
excrutiations? Perhaps Thecla was involved in the whole "plot" to catalyze
Severian's exegesis as the Conciliator?

Anyway it's all very interesting on second read. I did not expect so much to
jump out at me after having not picked the books up in 6 years.
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From: Fred Kiesche <godelescherbach at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:06:59 +0000

Doing a re-read as well, but have not gotten as far as you. Only reading a
chapter a night, and if it has been a bad day or the joints are aching too
much, I may not get through a whole chapter.

(1) I interpreted this to mean as you say, Sev is saying he is a follower.
It is a bit jarring at this point, as you don't have much backstory and it
seems like he makes it up on the spot.

(2) Not necessarily. Sev found Triskele during winter. Wounded, the cold
could have both slowed the bleeding and slowed the life processes. Cleaning
and warming Triskele might have saved the dog. And he got to put his
"surgical skills" (learned as a apprentice torturer) to some good use.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com> wrote:

> 6) Then there is that lingering scent of perfume he detects in his cabin.
> He says "the Thecla khaibits had been by to visit." But it seems that this
> Anyway it's all very interesting on second read. I did not expect so much
> to jump out at me after having not picked the books up in 6 years.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>

-- 
F.P. Kiesche III  "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being
presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.)
Blogging at The Lensman's Children (
http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/).
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:07:33 +0000

> Vodalus as a follower of Vodalus?

Yes.

> 2) Severian actually brings Triskele back to life the first time they meet,

Yes.

> 3) Is the House Azure actually part of the House Absolute?

Arguably, yes.

> of Holy Katharine? Did he actually behead the woman and then resurrect her?

No, this seems to be smoke and mirrors.

> correctly may have been Severian's mother -

There is a rather vocal contingent who believes this, yes.

> must have been in on it
> New Sun and had the whole thing planned out as a test.

Unlikely. He has seen elevations to journeyman before and would have
noticed if his was different somehow.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:28:21 +0000

It seems unlikely to me that the Guild would have set up a test for
Severian where someone was killed needlessly; they abstain from unjust
and unnecessary violence.  I think perhaps Gurloes has some idea of
Severian's greater destiny (b/c it is Gurloes that gives him TE and
sends him out into the world with the hint that he might one day
return) and might be in on some plot to put Severian on the Phoenix
Throne, but... and this is the big problem with this theory... if you
were hinging the hopes of your entire planet on surreptitiously
guiding a young man to the throne so that he might travel to Yesod and
complete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the
journey itself?

One could argue that Severian's life is a series of Dickensian
coincidences machinated by powers beyond his knowledge to fulfill a
certain role, but if those powers are as truly omnipotent as such a
scheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?

yvt,
LH

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:40:45 +0000

Palaemon.

.

---

From: Josh Caswell <jandcaswell at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:32:02 +0000

> complete the trial, why expose him to the dangers inherent in the

I would not be so quick to disregard this; for example we can address
the issue of a danger to the Severian who is a mortal entity insomuch
as anyone on Urth.  It was addressed near the end of the series in a
reflection of Severian himself that the very history of his world made
him such a likely candidate to undertake the dangerous things that he
has seen to in the course of his journey (don't have the line, but you
may remember the bit about all the boys that had died in training over
the years and how the bones made up much of the dust of the soil).
Second there is the matter of Severian's training as a torturer that
proved invaluable in the journey itself, something of a deus ex
machina in itself.

> scheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?

This is something that must be considered with the time traveling,
dead raising, miracle preforming, karate chopping Severian we all know
and love in mind.  Perhaps it has something to do with the twin
Severian's at Apu Punchau, but that could just be Wolfe being Wolfe or
some of Severian's influence on the tale.  What I am getting at is
that it was not an issue of destiny or fulfillment at all, but
eventuality.  Think on the things that the Aquastor said or the
Hierodules or the talk about the Hierogrammates.  There is a certain
cyclical implication in some of what they say and at points in the
books we are shown clones of people or on the ship of Tzadkiel we are
shown a dead Severian, this is not the chosen one or a prophesy being
played out this is like I said an eventuality, this is not what must
happen this is what happens or arguably what happened and will happen
again in much the same way.

I hope that all makes sense I haven't slept in some 27 hours.

J
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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:32:28 +0000

>>From Kurt Vonnegut's cartoonish Tralfamadorians to Frank Herbert's mystical Atreides guys, SF authors have struggled to convey the difficulty for a being who can simultaneously perceive multiple points in time to communicate with such limited beings as ourselves who can only directly perceive one moment at a time. 
 
I think Severian's dealings with Tzadkiel and various Hiero-dudes are Gene Wolfe's attempt to tackle the problem God has in accurately and understandably conveying His message to humanity. 		 	   		  
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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:50:50 +0000

Reformatted- 
>>From Kurt Vonnegut's cartoonish Tralfamadorians to
Frank Herbert's mystical Atreides guys, SF authors have struggled
to convey the difficulty for a being who can simultaneously
perceive multiple points in time to communicate with such limited
beings as ourselves who can only directly perceive one moment at a time.
I think Severian's dealings with Tzadkiel and various Hiero-dudes are
Gene Wolfe's attempt to tackle the problem God has in accurately and
understandably conveying His message to humanity. 		 	   		  
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:53:52 +0000

Lee,

I believe that Wolfe would say, rather than "the problem God has in
... conveying His
message to humanity," "the difficulty we have in understanding God's message."

--Dan'l

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Josh Caswell <jandcaswell at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:05:15 +0000

This is a valid argument Lee, but it being Wolfe I have to ask myself does
he mean it to be God (probably) or is he speaking more of the Hierogrammates
themselves; if only an allegory for a theological truth as Wolfe sees it
then we can simply count it as such and simply file it away (as if anything
with Wolfe is ever that simple.  However if the message comes from the
divine, the Hierogrammates, I think it could be that their message is a
means to *their* own end in their existence as an end result, more cyclical
thinking.
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:21:05 +0000

> scheme would suggest, why the rigmarole of the New Sun at all?

Time travel. Once causality begins to loop back, there are no 
coincidences, no probability in the chain of events. What determines the 
chain of events is that it requires the least intervention by the time 
travellers.

And time travel happens because it is an allegory for G-d's eternal 
nature outside of Creation, even though G-d himself also appears in the 
story to remind us that the instruments of that intervention are flawed 
but their employer is not.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:32:43 +0000

> Time travel. Once causality begins to loop back, there are no coincidences,
> no probability in the chain of events. What determines the chain of events
> is that it requires the least intervention by the time travellers.
>
> And time travel happens because it is an allegory for G-d's eternal nature
> outside of Creation, even though G-d himself also appears in the story to
> remind us that the instruments of that intervention are flawed but their
> employer is not.

It would still be more efficient for Tzadkiel/Hierogrammates/whomever
to send the White Fountain without the need for the test or
maneuvering Severian on the throne.  While we might argue that God (or
other such omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being) must work
through intermediaries because his nature prevents direct
intervention, Tzadkiel and the Hieros have no such restrictions.  Or
do they just mirror their reflections in the universe above Yesod and
act by circumspect means because in their image are they created?

(Aside, and literary connection, complete with spoilers for those who
have not read _Anathem_:  this is somewhat akin to Neal Stephenson's
faux-Platonic idea of "propagation along the wick," where the Daban
Urnood travels through successive iterations of Earth _backwards_
along a chain of ever-worsening reflections of the Platonic ideal
Earth.  Although it is interesting to note that Man of Science
Stephenson sees traveling toward "more perfect" universes as moving
backward, while for Man of Faith Wolfe doing so is traveling
"upward.")

Anyway, I'm overstressed at work and probably seeing things and
connections where none should be.  Have a wonderful Friday everyone!

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:41:59 +0000

I'm not sure that the metaphor is actually that different--Stephenson has
just cloaked his religious allusion in one more degree of obscurity.
"Backward" is still "backward toward" something, a world that various
characters do call "higher."

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:

> coincidences,
> nature
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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:50:38 +0000

The "HTW" or Heaven of the Forms from Plato/neoplatonism and Wolfe's
good-natured piracy of kabbalistic terminology share a common cultural
source and still crop up in more modern philosophy (Leibniz,
Plantinga, David Lewis, etc.).  It's all very interesting, at least to
a philosophy geek like me.

I always like it when very different authors mine the same ideas and
come up with differnet-sounding though very similar in form plot
points.

LH

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:15:49 +0000

Sure, the melting point is Plotinus, right?

By the way, Plantinga is a top-five person I've ever met in terms of
smarts.  Just a really, really keen mind.

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:20:51 +0000

Yes, but he looks like a demented gargoyle.  And I'll never forgive
him for transworld depravity.  I still have flashes of horror
regarding long tutoring sessions with my sophomore philosophy of
religion TA trying to understand that.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:26:36 +0000

I almost literally ran into him once when he was out jogging--they had to
take me to that place in Hogwarts where they turn people back from stone to
flesh.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 00:30:34 +0000

> act by circumspect means because in their image are they created?

I think they interfere as little as possible both because they are at base
moral creatures who know they constantly risk catastrophic changes in
their "client" civilizations and because of limited resources, as each
group of islands on Yesod is responsible for an entire galaxy in Briah.
Tzadkiel needs Severian's coming to confirm when his personal attention
will be needed and where along the timeline to aim the Fountain, so he is
available to supervise the other worlds in his teritory.

> backward, while for Man of Faith Wolfe doing so is traveling

I think this could be an artifact of the borrowing from Plato; wasn't the
Hellenic cultural view of time as if they stood by a river looking
downstream as it carried figures of the past into the distance while those
of the unknowable future are behind them, only the largest foreshadowed by
ripples if at all?

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 01:21:50 +0000

> available to supervise the other worlds in his teritory.

Interesting theory.

> of the unknowable future are behind them, only the largest foreshadowed by

Yes; the idea of successive "worlds" with higher levels of existence
is common in many belief systems, but the unique confluence of
Hellenistic philosophy with the emerging Judaic religions (including
some the syncretic ones) was a major development on early
Christianity.  Since learned men in the first few centuries AD
would've studied what we know consider classical Greek philosophy, all
of the Church fathers were well-versed in it, and consequently it has
become something of a part of the Christian folk ideas about heaven
and hell.  But even in other mythic sources (like Norse mythology) we
get the idea of successive levels of reality up and down the world
tree... and Wolfe drew this exact parallel in TWK.

It's a case of nothing new under the sun; really... every "great idea"
we have goes back to these very early ideas.  All we can say is that
out new learnings seem more like clarifications of what we've found
out before. Which of course Plato would agree with and say, "Duh,
modernity.  See what I wrote in the _Meno_?  I got this covered."

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 02:41:16 +0000

Plato to modernity:  "Thanks for the footnotes."

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From: aaron <aaronsingleton at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 05:50:31 +0000

Actually, Palaemon gave Severian Terminus Est and advice about his journey
to Thrax.  When he is doing this, he becomes confused and tells Severian the
wrong direction, which made me think that Palaemon had gone South ( whereas
Sev is sent North) himself as a younger man.  Gurloes is the strange and
slighty creepy master who uses the powder and the metal phallus.  Umm, what
a weirdo.

-- 
Aaron Singleton
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 06:31:43 +0000

Gurloes is a very unhappy man.

.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 15:15:16 +0000

Yeah, I realized that after I wrote it.  I typically only respond at work when I'm away from my books.
LH

On May 15, 2010, at 12:50 AM, aaron wrote:

> Actually, Palaemon gave Severian Terminus Est and advice about his journey to Thrax.  When he is doing this, he becomes confused and tells Severian the wrong direction, which made me think that Palaemon had gone South ( whereas Sev is sent North) himself as a younger man.  Gurloes is the strange and slighty creepy master who uses the powder and the metal phallus.  Umm, what a weirdo.
> 

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 03:47:26 +0000

Gurloes doesn't use the powder and the dildo that we see (as far as I remember).  He just has them in case he needs them, but in the situation Severian mentions, Gurloes manages without them.

He has a job where he's sometimes required to rape people.  I think any way he deals with that has to be creepy--except quitting, which probably wouldn't work out well for him, especially since nobody's looking after his destiny.

Jerry Friedman

________________________________
From: aaron <aaronsingleton at gmail.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 11:50:31 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) started my second read of New Sun

-- 
Aaron Singleton

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:16:48 +0000

>I believe that Wolfe would say, rather than "the problem God has in
... conveying His message to humanity," "the difficulty we have in
 understanding God's message."

>but it being Wolfe I have to ask myself does

My interpretation of the subtext of the Sun series is this- There is not a
vast, empty gap between humanity and God (the Increate/Outsider etc.). Just as
there are lower creatures than human, there are higher ones, in a 
succession increasingly closer to God. We see an illustration of the
progression in the rapid evolution of Zak from shapeless blob to mammal
to primate to man to superman to archangel Tzadkiel. 
 
I think there is the implication that Tzadkiel and her race are not the 
final stage...there are many beings more advanced still. But these beings
are so far advanced from humanity that meaningful communication is impossible.
Thus communication from God/Increate must be imperfectly imparted to humanity
by such imperfect (yet still superior) beings such as angels.
 
My further guess (in part from Wolfe interviews) is that he thinks that
humanity was in some fashion in closer contact with these superhuman beings
in the past. Thus the origin of our mythologies of angels, ancient pantheons
of gods, demigods,etc. Furthermore, those superior beings who diverged from
the path of evolution toward God became our mythological demons and monsters,
vampires,etc. Of course, ultimately they serve the purpose of the Increate also.
 
I'm not sure, but, going out on a limb, it might be that Wolfe considers the
evolutionary path toward the Increate to be a circular one. Thus the problem
of communication between Man and God is simultaneously a problem
for Him and for His ultimate successor, ourselves. 		 	   		  
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:21:24 +0000

> for Him and for His ultimate successor, ourselves.

For Wolfe as a Catholic, this idea would be very deep heresy.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:39:01 +0000

> For Wolfe as a Catholic, this idea would be very deep heresy.

Unless you dress it up real fancy, Teilhard de Chardin-style.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:41:40 +0000

While de Chardin has not been officially denounced as a heretic, severe
"warnings" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:01:45 +0000

> "warnings" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church.

Which has not, of course, kept Roman Catholic authors from utilizing
his philosophy and theology as the basis for their stories.

I think Wolfe, unlike Simmons, might stop short of saying that man
will surpass God as the Hieros surpassed Man.  The idea of man
creating his superior is not foreign to sf; robotics (and more
recently) genetic manipulation have produced many such stories.  The
trope of the created surpassing the creator, the student defeating the
master, etc., is a very common one.

But Wolfe (who loves to f$%! with tropes) might be stopping this one
up a bit short.  Maybe the evolution isn't so much circular as it is
spiral-shaped... ever increasing but always falling short of the true
majesty of the Increate because no matter how great the successive
lower-universe iterations get, all the way from protozoa to
Hierogrammates to angels or whatever, they are all still bounded by
temporality and being subject to this notion of change from one thing
to the other, of growth.  The very potential for change and becoming
greater necessarily acts as a self-imposed limit by making such
creatures subject to the flow of time.  The Increate, by being outside
time proper (whence a name like "Outsider?") is therefore in no danger
of ever changing or becoming "better." Such commonplace relational
notions as "better" or "worse" do not apply to such a being.

The very possibility of evolution, then, the great strength of
mortality, is also a limiting a condition that would prevent the
Teilhardian "final evolution."

LH

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:07:01 +0000

> "warnings" are attached to his work by the Roman Catholic Church.

True, but he has recently been given a +1 by the Holy Father:

http://ncronline.org/news/ecology/pope-cites-teilhardian-vision-cosmos-living-host

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:16:32 +0000

It's heresy to say that man will "replace" God.

It would not be heresy to suggest that the purpose of divine grace is for
mankind to gradual become more like God.  In fact that is orthodoxy (there's
even a cool word for it, theosis, the process of becoming like God).  And
given infinite time and God's own infinitity, mankind will infinitely *divinize
*without reaching *divinity.*

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:28:53 +0000

All that is true.

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 12:16 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:
> given infinite time and God's own infinitity, mankind will infinitely
> divinize without reaching divinity.
>

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:34:35 +0000

This is perhaps the best description/explanation for what Wolfe "seems" 
to be doing in NS as I have seen. I've had a difficult time grasping the 
Increate's purpose in all the hugger-mugger of BOTNS. Treating this idea 
as an existing SF trope to which Wolfe formulates a penetrating response 
makes it work for me, and it fits Wolfe's interest in the "wrong" path 
being just as good as the "right" path if it takes one to the same 
place. Also, there is the (Platonic? Older?) idea of all matter in the 
universe striving to purge itself and rejoin God/become divine, which if 
considered a basic material force in the universe makes much more sense 
as the basis for such a vast "conspiracy" than some deistic tinkerer 
creating and destroying universes in succession with absolute 
inefficiency when he could just as well ... not create anything at all. 
If every race, every atom experiences this "Uplift" effect then it is 
clearly something inherent in all things. The mechanism by which this 
occurs for each race becomes less important to work out. There remains a 
certain cheesiness to the whole scheme, but I take that as comedy, as 
well as a celebration of pulp SF. ------------------------------ 
Message: 7 Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:01:45 -0500 From: Lane Haygood 
<lhaygood at gmail.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> 
Subject: Re: (urth) started my second read of New Sun Message-ID: 
<AANLkTikyCYMmZMW8sPXESpu9wXcxAYDHYmS70Dt86wdF at mail.gmail.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 

LH

------------------------------

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:20:08 +0000

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:
> will surpass God as the Hieros surpassed Man. ?The idea of man
> recently) genetic manipulation have produced many such stories. ?The
> up a bit short. ?Maybe the evolution isn't so much circular as it is
> to the other, of growth.

Spiral-shaped? Come on, this isn't R.A. Laffferty or _Tengen Toppen
Gurren Lagann_. :)

-- 
gwern

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:39:56 +0000

> Spiral-shaped? Come on, this isn't R.A. Laffferty or _Tengen Toppen

A, yes, Lafferty ... another fine Catholic SF writer ...

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:13:42 +0000

My interpretation of the subtext of the Sun series is this- There is not a
vast, empty gap between humanity and God (the Increate/Outsider etc.).

Based on the Cock and the Eagle, I'd have to say there is such a gap.

It just doesn't start immediately above humanity.

Adam

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:36:19 +0000

In regard to Gene Wolfe as heretic, I'm not sure he'd reject that label.
Perhaps he'd embrace it.  From the Larry McCaffery interview:
 
>GW- "I am a practicing Catholic, although I don't think that
>designation would give people much of an idea about what my beliefs
>are. People tend to have a very limited, stereotyped view of what it
>means to be a Catholic....I certainly don't dismiss religious or other
>mystical forms of speculation out of hand. I read it and try to make my
>own judgments about it. And in The Book of the New Sun I tried to work
>out some of the implications of my beliefs.

Moving beyond established religious dogma seems to be an important part
of both Severian's and Silk's journeys.
 
I too liked Lane Haygood's post and perhaps Wolfe does view spiritual evolution
as an assymptotic spiral, approaching but never reaching ultimate divinity. I 
certainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would replace God.
 
Still, I'm willing to consider circularity as a possibility. I think the 
section which describes the attachment to the person of the monarch as both
the lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration. It reminds
me of God declaring he is Alpha and Omega. This always struck me as a circular
rather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be both the
beginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an earlier point
in spiritual evolution.
 
Part of Tzadkiel's semi-divine nature is the ability to traverse a universe and
perceive multiple points in time simultaneously. I think the natural progression
from that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and perceive all
points in time simultaneously. As Lane posits, a way to accomplish this
would be to exist outside all time and space.
 
But perhaps what David Stockhoff hints at is another path to ultimate divinity.
Instead of being outside the whole shebang, a being could gain multi-universal
presence and perception by becoming one with all the substance of all universes.
Thus God would not be outside creation and evolution but the very essence of it,
simultaneously the beginning and end and everything in between. To me, that
feels more like Wolfe's Increate than a remote, external entity does.
 
But I qualified as being out on a limb from the beginning on this and I freely
admit it could be a projection of my own spiritual leanings rather than
those of Gene Wolfe's.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:45:42 +0000

He's orthodox.

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:52:26 +0000

I think the clear meaning of his statement in the Larry McCaffery interview
is that there's a bit more room for intellectual play within the confines of
orthodox Catholicism than stereotypes would suggest.  I'm fairly sure he can
say all three Creeds without lying.

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:45 AM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

> > beginning and the end is to be a circle. So Man is God, just at an
> earlier
> > point
> > in spiritual evolution.
> >
> > from that would be the ability to traverse multiple universes and
> perceive
> > all
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:57:42 +0000

That's right.

.

>> > certainly didn't mean to suggest the Sun series implies Man would
>> replace
>> > God.
>> >
>> > the lowest and highest basis for governance is a partial inspiration.
>> It
>> > reminds
>> > rather than linear alphabetic statement. The most elegant way to be
>> both
>> > the
>> > Thus God would not be outside creation and evolution but the very
>> essence
>> > of it,
>> > But I qualified as being out on a limb from the beginning on this and
>> I
>> > freely

---

From: Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:38:21 +0000

This idea reminds me of (the decidedly UN-Catholic) Milton's notion of a spectrum of purity among levels of existence in Paradise Lost. The angel Raphael explains this to Adam:

O Adam, one Almighty is, from whom
All things proceed, and up to him return,
If not deprav?d from good, created all
Such to perfection, one first matter all,
Indu?d with various forms, various degrees
Of substance, and in things that live, of life;
But more refin?d, more spirituous, and pure,
As nearer to him plac?t or nearer tending
Each in thir several active Spheres assign?d,
Till body up to spirit work, in bounds
Proportion?d to each kind. So from the root
Springs lighter the green stalk, from thence the 
leaves
More aery, last the bright consummate flow?r
Spirits odorous breathes: flow?rs and thir fruit
Man’s nourishment, by gradual scale sublim?d
To vital spirits aspire, to animal,
To intellectual, give both life and sense,
Fancy and understanding, whence the Soul
Reason receives, and reason is her being,
Discursive, or Intuitive; discourse
Is oftest yours, the latter most is ours,
Differing but in degree, of kind the same. (5. 
469-490)

----- Original Message ----
From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 2:34:35 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) started my second read of New Sun

This is perhaps the best description/explanation for what Wolfe "seems" to be doing in NS as I have seen. I've had a difficult time grasping the Increate's purpose in all the hugger-mugger of BOTNS. Treating this idea as an existing SF trope to which Wolfe formulates a penetrating response makes it work for me, and it fits Wolfe's interest in the "wrong" path being just as good as the "right" path if it takes one to the same place. Also, there is the (Platonic? Older?) idea of all matter in the universe striving to purge itself and rejoin God/become divine, which if considered a basic material force in the universe makes much more sense as the basis for such a vast "conspiracy" than some deistic tinkerer creating and destroying universes in succession with absolute inefficiency when he could just as well ... not create anything at all. If every race, every atom experiences this "Uplift" effect then it is clearly something inherent in all things. The

LH

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:01:11 +0000

> Based on the Cock and the Eagle, I'd have to say there is such a gap.

If you man the cock and the angel, that's the angel's opinion. However, 
the angel turns out to be wrong about the fundamental moral of the 
story, and IIRC the angel makes his statement about the Increate's 
separation while he is without his angel-nature; having removed that, he 
has placed himself that much further from the Increate.

It's ambiguous, I'm jus sayin'

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:56:44 +0000

Of course, the great thing about a "spiral" evolutionary scheme is that 
is it both circular AND linear and can easily be asymptotic as well. 
"Circular" and "linear" answer the question of human relation to God too 
neatly and put an end to further questions ... 
------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 
08:36:19 -0400 From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: 
<urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: (urth) started my second read of New Sun 
Message-ID: <SNT123-W8B0F26407B3B44D111DC0CFE10 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: 
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ...

 
 
...

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 08:51:47 +0000

>> available to supervise the other worlds in his teritory.

If you see a flaw, I'm open to criticism.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:05:52 +0000

I see no specific flaw.

I am not looking for any, really.

I am sure I could find one, or make one up.

But I won't, this once.

.