{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5611", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5611, "subject": "Wolfe as Heretic", "messages": 76, "voices": 18, "first": "2010-05-19T14:00:52+00:00", "last": "2010-05-21T15:48:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T14:00:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my fairly extensive review of Gene Wolfe interviews I've\nfound him to be generally cautious and circumspect with regard\nto revealing the mysteries behind his literary work. But \noccasionally a certain interviewer will inspire him to let \nsomething important slip. For example, in the Larry McCaffery\ninterview I mentioned in another post he is willing to resolve\nthe central mystery of Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n \nIn the '96 interview with James Jordan I find one of the most\ntelling revelations which has helped my personal understanding\nof the thematic underpinnings of the Sun series. Ironically the\nanswer is in response to a question about the Soldier series. But\nit displays a part of the stated personal belief system of Gene\nWolfe which seems to have inspired much of his work. I think it is\na belief which is not reconcilable with orthodox Catholicism, though\nI can't be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here\nor some type of power that really was operative in the world before\nthe kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried to do was to write about that pagan world as the\npagans themselves wrote about it. If we read modern historians we are\nreading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of\nthese people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to\nAres or Apollo or you name it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and\nall that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there and that whether it\nis true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it\nfelt. They were convinced that there was something there and they had all\nsorts of legends and so forth about the appearances of the god and in fact\nthere is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles\nare mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the Latin\nand the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are mistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected that\nyou could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not so sure they were wrong.\nI am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much smarter we\nare than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am very\ndubious about that.\n\t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T14:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not certain that monolatrism is heretical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nIn my fairly extensive review of Gene Wolfe interviews I've\nfound him to be generally cautious and circumspect with regard\nto revealing the mysteries behind his literary work. But\noccasionally a certain interviewer will inspire him to let\nsomething important slip. For example, in the Larry McCaffery\ninterview I mentioned in another post he is willing to resolve\nthe central mystery of Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n\nIn the '96 interview with James Jordan I find one of the most\ntelling revelations which has helped my personal understanding\nof the thematic underpinnings of the Sun series. Ironically the\nanswer is in response to a question about the Soldier series. But\nit displays a part of the stated personal belief system of Gene\nWolfe which seems to have inspired much of his work. I think it is\na belief which is not reconcilable with orthodox Catholicism, though\nI can't be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here\nor some type of power that really was operative in the world before\nthe kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried to do was to write about that pagan world as the\npagans themselves wrote about it. If we read modern historians we are\nreading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of\nthese people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to\nAres or Apollo or you name it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and\nall that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there and that whether it\nis true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it\nfelt. They were convinced that there was something there and they had all\nsorts of legends and so forth about the appearances of the god and in fact\nthere is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles\nare mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the\nLatin\nand the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are\nmistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected\nthat\nyou could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not so sure they were\nwrong.\nI am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much smarter\nwe\nare than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am\nvery\ndubious about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with\nHotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF3F69D.5060501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T14:33:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Church Fathers did not in general make a point of saying pagan gods didn't \nexist. I don't think any considered them divine, but instead of angelic \nnature, though either fallen or miscontrued by their worshippers.\n\nHi, people.\n\nLee Berman wrote (19-05-2010 15:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my fairly extensive review of Gene Wolfe interviews I've\nfound him to be generally cautious and circumspect with regard\nto revealing the mysteries behind his literary work. But\noccasionally a certain interviewer will inspire him to let\nsomething important slip. For example, in the Larry McCaffery\ninterview I mentioned in another post he is willing to resolve\nthe central mystery of Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n\nIn the '96 interview with James Jordan I find one of the most\ntelling revelations which has helped my personal understanding\nof the thematic underpinnings of the Sun series. Ironically the\nanswer is in response to a question about the Soldier series. But\nit displays a part of the stated personal belief system of Gene\nWolfe which seems to have inspired much of his work. I think it is\na belief which is not reconcilable with orthodox Catholicism, though\nI can't be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here\nor some type of power that really was operative in the world before\nthe kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried to do was to write about that pagan world as the\npagans themselves wrote about it. If we read modern historians we are\nreading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of\nthese people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to\nAres or Apollo or you name it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and\nall that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there and that whether it\nis true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it\nfelt. They were convinced that there was something there and they had all\nsorts of legends and so forth about the appearances of the god and in fact\nthere is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles\nare mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the Latin\nand the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are mistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected that\nyou could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not so sure they were wrong.\nI am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much smarter we\nare than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am very\ndubious about that.\n\t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T14:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF3F69D.5060501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/5/19 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Church Fathers did not in general make a point of saying pagan gods didn't\nexist. I don't think any considered them divine, but instead of angelic\nnature, though either fallen or miscontrued by their worshippers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I read Wolfe as saying: the being worshipped is real even\nif humans misconstrue their nature. Let's say that an ancient Greek\nworshipping Apollo was really worshipping one of the angels to whom\nwas given custody of poetry, the sun, music, etc. The imperfect\nnature of the worshipper is such that all he knows how to call what he\nsees is \"divine,\" even if that appellation might more properly refer\nto Apollo's boss, and not to Apollo himself. Certainly the same sort\nof modernistic arguments against the existence of divinity apply with\nequanimity to the existence of Apollo or the god of monotheists.\nWolfe is right that there is no reason for people that acknowledge the\nexistence of that monotheistic god to assume that heathens were silly\nfor believing in their many gods. In fact, it is contrary to their\nown faith that they would be dismissive of the faith of others.\n\nAlso, Wolfe is a learned man, and well aware of Christianity's roots\nbeing not too far removed from henotheistic Judaism. I think our\nmodern theological discussions are stripped very bare of the\nsupernatural (except for, of course, those beings for which theodicies\nare traditionally maintained), and we tend to impart our rather\ncynical view to ancients, or view them as deficient in some regard\nbecause they believed in things we now consider seriously. Every time\nI indulge myself in this prejudice, I recall all of the wonders the\npeople of the ancient world produced, and am humbled a bit." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF4032A.7060209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-05-19T15:26:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. This is how Tolkien handled it too; his elemental gods were clearly angelic, and Elves remembered this if Men didn't. Just acknowledging the gods as real doesn't mean they must be gods. \n\nI don't think Wolfe would agree that only the Jews knew God before the Christians; the Greeks must have glimpsed divinity, whether in angelic form or as fragments of true divinity. They were well acquainted with it.\n\nTo me, all his novels read like the Soldier novels to me---his characters are like the blind men encountering the elephant, but they don't think they know everything like 21st century people do, nor do they think God is a big warm hug. They acknowledge the persistence of mystery/ies. Encountering their gods could be a fatal experience.\n\nI don't think there are angels in FHC.\n\nBTW, I'd bet that Wolfe might have fun with heretical status in the sense of being a \"bad boy,\" but no more than that. He's too smart to have converted with the purpose of either deconstructing and demolishing his new religion or oversimplifying/rigidifying it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:33:01 +0100\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF4049A.2020602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-05-19T15:32:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF4032A.7060209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name. \n\nAm I always the last to know? ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:10:12 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T15:37:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF4049A.2020602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last to know was me, reading this just now! I thought it meant \"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. I missed the pun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know? ;)\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:10:12 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \n\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nI am not certain that monolatrism is heretical.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13861.67.142.130.26.1274283540.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T15:39:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what way is this not compatible with Catholicism?\n\nWhat is Catholic doctrine on this matter?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my fairly extensive review of Gene Wolfe interviews I've\nfound him to be generally cautious and circumspect with regard\nto revealing the mysteries behind his literary work. But\noccasionally a certain interviewer will inspire him to let\nsomething important slip. For example, in the Larry McCaffery\ninterview I mentioned in another post he is willing to resolve\nthe central mystery of Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n\nIn the '96 interview with James Jordan I find one of the most\ntelling revelations which has helped my personal understanding\nof the thematic underpinnings of the Sun series. Ironically the\nanswer is in response to a question about the Soldier series. But\nit displays a part of the stated personal belief system of Gene\nWolfe which seems to have inspired much of his work. I think it is\na belief which is not reconcilable with orthodox Catholicism, though\nI can't be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here\nor some type of power that really was operative in the world before\nthe kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried to do was to write about that pagan world as the\npagans themselves wrote about it. If we read modern historians we are\nreading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of\nthese people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to\nAres or Apollo or you name it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and\nall that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there and that whether it\nis true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it\nfelt. They were convinced that there was something there and they had all\nsorts of legends and so forth about the appearances of the god and in\nfact\nthere is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles\nare mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the\nLatin\nand the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are\nmistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected\nthat\nyou could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not so sure they were\nwrong.\nI am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much\nsmarter we\nare than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am\nvery\ndubious about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with\nHotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7718.67.142.130.26.1274283672.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T15:41:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Y'all ought to speak for yourselves when talking about what the ancients\nbelieved as opposed to what we believe.\n\nThere's plenty of people out there with other pictures of the World than\nthe Moderrun one that suit them very well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/5/19 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Church Fathers did not in general make a point of saying pagan gods\ndidn't\nexist. I don't think any considered them divine, but instead of angelic\nnature, though either fallen or miscontrued by their worshippers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's what I read Wolfe as saying: the being worshipped is real even\nif humans misconstrue their nature. Let's say that an ancient Greek\nworshipping Apollo was really worshipping one of the angels to whom\nwas given custody of poetry, the sun, music, etc. The imperfect\nnature of the worshipper is such that all he knows how to call what he\nsees is \"divine,\" even if that appellation might more properly refer\nto Apollo's boss, and not to Apollo himself. Certainly the same sort\nof modernistic arguments against the existence of divinity apply with\nequanimity to the existence of Apollo or the god of monotheists.\nWolfe is right that there is no reason for people that acknowledge the\nexistence of that monotheistic god to assume that heathens were silly\nfor believing in their many gods. In fact, it is contrary to their\nown faith that they would be dismissive of the faith of others.\n\nAlso, Wolfe is a learned man, and well aware of Christianity's roots\nbeing not too far removed from henotheistic Judaism. I think our\nmodern theological discussions are stripped very bare of the\nsupernatural (except for, of course, those beings for which theodicies\nare traditionally maintained), and we tend to impart our rather\ncynical view to ancients, or view them as deficient in some regard\nbecause they believed in things we now consider seriously. Every time\nI indulge myself in this prejudice, I recall all of the wonders the\npeople of the ancient world produced, and am humbled a bit.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<945672.49387.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T17:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<13861.67.142.130.26.1274283540.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe said in that same interview, \"Laura is my idea of what a pagan goddess might be who survived\ninto the Christian world. One of the places where I probably split\noff from conventional Catholic thinking is that I believe that the\ngods of paganism were real. I don't think that they are entitled to\nthe worship that they received from the pagans. I think what many\nof the biblical writers are saying is, 'Yes, these are real powers,\nbut it is wrong for you to give to them the honors that are due to\nGod alone.' And I think that that is exactly correct.\"\n\nSo he thinks (or thought) his view of the pagan gods was \"probably\" not \"conventional Catholic thinking\", but that's different from \"heretical\".\n\nI can't answer your questions about Catholic doctrine, Josh.\n\nJerry\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wed, May 19, 2010 9:39:00 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\n\nIn what way is this not compatible with Catholicism?\n\nWhat is Catholic doctrine on this matter?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my fairly extensive review of Gene Wolfe interviews I've\nfound him to be generally cautious and circumspect with regard\nto revealing the mysteries behind his literary work. But\noccasionally a certain interviewer will inspire him to let\nsomething important slip. For example, in the Larry McCaffery\ninterview I mentioned in another post he is willing to resolve\nthe central mystery of Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n\nIn the '96 interview with James Jordan I find one of the most\ntelling revelations which has helped my personal understanding\nof the thematic underpinnings of the Sun series. Ironically the\nanswer is in response to a question about the Soldier series. But\nit displays a part of the stated personal belief system of Gene\nWolfe which seems to have inspired much of his work. I think it is\na belief which is not reconcilable with orthodox Catholicism, though\nI can't be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here\nor some type of power that really was operative in the world before\nthe kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried to do was to write about that pagan world as the\npagans themselves wrote about it. If we read modern historians we are\nreading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of\nthese people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to\nAres or Apollo or you name it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and\nall that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there and that whether it\nis true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it\nfelt. They were convinced that there was something there and they had all\nsorts of legends and so forth about the appearances of the god and in\nfact\nthere is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles\nare mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the\nLatin\nand the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are\nmistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected\nthat\nyou could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not so sure they were\nwrong.\nI am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much\nsmarter we\nare than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am\nvery\ndubious about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with\nHotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF42830.2060306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-05-19T18:04:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<945672.49387.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And it's a great pun. \n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking) something in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what is he seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a Christian worship if he lived before Christ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! I thought it meant \"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. I missed the pun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nAnd now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know? ;)\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T18:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF42830.2060306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I did a quick search and didn't find mention of \"monolatrism\"\nelsewhere on this list. Can't remember it in any other analysis so\nit looks like David Stockhoff might be elevated from last to first\nin the Lupine universe to catch the likely intended connection between\nthat term and the Soldier. Much credit to John Watkins for dredging up\nthe term.\n \nI wasn't seriously arguing that Wolfe should be branded a heretic. It\nwas mostly a jest aimed at Dan'l's worry above about \"Very deep heresy\".\nPlus a bit of poetic license. \"Wolfe as non-conventional Catholic thinker\"\njust didn't have the same ring for a subject title.\n \nSo monolatrism allows for Apollo and Hermes to be the Greeks' \nmisinterpretation of angels while Typhon and Medusa or Lamia were the\nmisinterpretation of fallen angel demons, etc. But I still get the \nimpression Gene Wolfe had more on his mind than the straight\nreligious interpretation, especially with the Sun series.\n \nWolfe is Catholic but he is more than just Catholic. Science and SF are \nalso obviously very important to him. The decade during which Shadow of \nthe Torturer was written featured a great popularity of the notion that\nalien travellers had visited Earth and strongly impacted the ancient\npeoples and civilizations. Not to suggest Wolfe is a \"trendy\" thinker but\nneither did he live in a cave. These ideas combined with monolatrism\nmay had been part of the impetus for that theme in the series, allowing\nfor Abaia and Hierodules and The Cumaean etc. to have their impact on Urth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11803.67.142.130.26.1274293832.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T18:30:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF42830.2060306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His point\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what is\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. I missed the\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know? ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rob Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T18:39:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<11803.67.142.130.26.1274293832.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, wrote:\nGod's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His point\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what is\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n? ? ? \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! “I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. ?I missed the\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know” ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T18:42:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...Richard Nixon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Rob Thornton wrote:\nWho is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His point\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what is\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n? ? ? \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! “I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. ?I missed the\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know” ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10752.67.142.130.26.1274295801.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T19:03:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A regular enemy is the enemy on the right.\n\nThe Enemy on the Left is a title of Tezcatlipoca.\n\nAnother of His titles is the Smoking Mirror.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His point\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what\nis\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n? ? ? \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! “I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. ?I missed the\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know” ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T19:24:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<10752.67.142.130.26.1274295801.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm familiar with Tezcatlipoca as Necoc Yaotl, \"The Enemy on Both Sides.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:03 PM, wrote:\nA regular enemy is the enemy on the right.\n\nThe Enemy on the Left is a title of Tezcatlipoca.\n\nAnother of His titles is the Smoking Mirror.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His point\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what\nis\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n? ? ? \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! “I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. ?I missed the\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know” ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1967.67.142.130.26.1274298585.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T19:49:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's also right.\n\nIt's interesting to reflect that Arjuna is the Left Handed Archer.\n\nArjuna uses his bow from both sides.\n\nWhen we die, it is God that kills us.\n\nHe is closer to you than your jugular vein.\n\nAre you familiar with the observance of Toxcatl, Dan'l?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm familiar with Tezcatlipoca as Necoc Yaotl, \"The Enemy on Both Sides.\"\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:03 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A regular enemy is the enemy on the right.\n\nThe Enemy on the Left is a title of Tezcatlipoca.\n\nAnother of His titles is the Smoking Mirror.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His\npoint\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what\nis\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T19:51:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<1967.67.142.130.26.1274298585.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only in broad terms. And we're wandering pretty far from the topic of the list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:49 PM, wrote:\nThat's also right.\n\nIt's interesting to reflect that Arjuna is the Left Handed Archer.\n\nArjuna uses his bow from both sides.\n\nWhen we die, it is God that kills us.\n\nHe is closer to you than your jugular vein.\n\nAre you familiar with the observance of Toxcatl, Dan'l?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm familiar with Tezcatlipoca as Necoc Yaotl, \"The Enemy on Both Sides.\"\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:03 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A regular enemy is the enemy on the right.\n\nThe Enemy on the Left is a title of Tezcatlipoca.\n\nAnother of His titles is the Smoking Mirror.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His\npoint\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily, what\nis\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n? ? ? \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! “I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. ?I missed\nthe\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know” ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8690.67.142.130.26.1274298945.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T19:55:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<1967.67.142.130.26.1274298585.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most important part of the Toxcatl ritual was the sacrifice of a young\nman who had been impersonating Tezcatlipoca since the last Toxcatl\nfestival, and the selection of a new man to take that role in the year to\ncome.\n\nThe youth chosen to be the ixiptlatli (impersonator) of Tezcatlipoca was\nnormally a war captive. He was taught courtly speech, singing and to play\nthe flute. Throughout the year he would parade in the streets of\nTenochtitlan and be treated with great reverence.\n\nHis skin was painted black except for a ribbon across his eyes, he was\ndressed in precious jewellery and cotton embroidered clothes. He wore a\nsnail-shell lip pendant, eagle down headdress, turquoise bracelets and\ngolden bells on his ankles.\n\nHe walked about the city playing the flute, smoking tobacco and smelling\nflowers, and people would salute him as the living image of the god. At\nthe building called Quauhxicalco he would sometimes burn copal incense and\nplay his flute.\n\nSeveral times during the year he would meet with the Aztec ruler, the\ntlatoani, who would ritually adorn him. In the month of Huey Tozoztli\nwhich preceded Toxcatl, he would be ritually wed to four maidens who\nimpersonated the goddesses Xochiquetzal, Xilonen, Atlatonan and\nHuixtocihuatl, and he lived with them for twenty days.\n\nFour days before the main ceremony the tlatoani secluded himself in his\npalace and the Tezcatlipoca impersonator and his four wives paraded\nthrough the city. On the fifth day they travelled by canoe to a place\ncalled Acaquilpan, here he was left to himself by his wives near the\ntemple Tlacochcalco (\"In the House of Darts\"). He then freely walked up\nthe stairs of the pyramid, breaking a flute on each step. At the summit\nthe priests would lay him on a sacrificial stone, open his chest with an\nobsidian dagger, and remove his heart.\n\nHe was beheaded and his skull was placed on the tzompantli (skull rack),\nhis body was flayed and his flesh was distributed among the nobles of the\ncity and eaten. The warcaptive who was to be the next impersonator of\nTezcatlipoca also took part in the flesh and probably also wore the skin\nof his predecessor.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's also right.\n\nIt's interesting to reflect that Arjuna is the Left Handed Archer.\n\nArjuna uses his bow from both sides.\n\nWhen we die, it is God that kills us.\n\nHe is closer to you than your jugular vein.\n\nAre you familiar with the observance of Toxcatl, Dan'l?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm familiar with Tezcatlipoca as Necoc Yaotl, \"The Enemy on Both\nSides.\"\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:03 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A regular enemy is the enemy on the right.\n\nThe Enemy on the Left is a title of Tezcatlipoca.\n\nAnother of His titles is the Smoking Mirror.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His\npoint\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily,\nwhat\nis\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "<15084.67.142.130.26.1274298977.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T19:56:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't actually think we are.\n\nSee my previous post.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only in broad terms. And we're wandering pretty far from the topic of the\nlist.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:49 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's also right.\n\nIt's interesting to reflect that Arjuna is the Left Handed Archer.\n\nArjuna uses his bow from both sides.\n\nWhen we die, it is God that kills us.\n\nHe is closer to you than your jugular vein.\n\nAre you familiar with the observance of Toxcatl, Dan'l?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm familiar with Tezcatlipoca as Necoc Yaotl, \"The Enemy on Both\nSides.\"\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:03 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A regular enemy is the enemy on the right.\n\nThe Enemy on the Left is a title of Tezcatlipoca.\n\nAnother of His titles is the Smoking Mirror.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Who is the Enemy on the Right?\n\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "God's got our best interests in mind, and all, but that's from His\npoint\nof view.\n\nGod is the Person who kills every one of us.\n\nGod is the Enemy on the Left.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "And it's a great pun.\n\nWouldn't want to overinterpret, but if Latro is hunting (seeking)\nsomething in a world where gods present themselves to him daily,\nwhat\nis\nhe seeking except which god to worship? Indeed, which god would a\nChristian worship if he lived before Christ?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:37:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe as Heretic\nMessage-ID:\n? ? ?\n\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe last to know was me, reading this just now! “I thought it meant\n\"hunter\"\nand was a reference to his desire to regain his memories. ?I missed\nthe\npun.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "And now I grasp another layer of meaning in Latro's name.\nAm I always the last to know” ;)\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Garry Geer", "address": "geerster at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<15084.67.142.130.26.1274298977.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are elements of early gnosticism in the BOTNS, where one can never\ntruly reach the level of the Increate, but one can move upward through the\nvarious levels (i.e. spiritual beings) to better understand the Increate but\nnever quite reaching Him. Think of it as a spiritual version of Zeno's\nparadox as personified through pseudo-deities.\n\nAs a pastor I find Wolfe's work fascinating as it always operates in a moral\nuniverse, but there never seems to be a clearly communicated ethic from the\nIncreate.\n\nGarry" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<15084.67.142.130.26.1274298977.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aztecs, you don't say? Remind me to sleep lightly the next time I\nstay over at my in-laws' place.\n\nLane" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:23:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<8690.67.142.130.26.1274298945.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I admit that I don't see the immediate relevance of this to\nWolfe, it is interesting (and much more than I knew, or at least\nremembered). I'll leave it to others to find the relevance.\n\nI suspect, however, that this is a case of \"anything is relevant to\nWolfe if looked at from the right angle: extreme freedom of\ninterpretation is fun and interesting but not always productive." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:43:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF3F69D.5060501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Church Fathers did not in general make a point of saying pagan gods didn't\nexist. I don't think any considered them divine, but instead of angelic\nnature, though either fallen or miscontrued by their worshippers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For pagans, the difference between divine and merely \"higher\" is\nprobably splitting hairs. It is only an important difference for\nmonotheists.\n\nPaul's opinion was that: \"Idols are truly divine and what is offered\nto them does not dow any good.. But the gentiles sacrifice to demons,\nnot to God.\" (1 Cor 10:20)\n\nHe was glossing from Deuteronomy: \"They sacrificed to demons, which\nare not God. Gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared,\ngods your fathers did not fear.\"\n\nWolfe differs in accepting that the ancient gods might not always be\nmalevolent, but potentially even good. He might have received this\nfrom (or had it confirmed by) the Anglican C.S. Lewis who said almost\nthe same thing. (And in \"That Hideous Strength\" he portrayed the gods\nVenus and Mercury as powers not positively aligned to the rebellious\nLord of Earth,) This all sounds like something Chesterton might have\nopined, but I can't find anywhere he did.\n\nBut then again, CS Lewis's view of pagan gods portrayed in \"The Last\nBattle\" is certainly at odds with Paul's. So maybe it is all\nheretical.\n\nThe Fathers and the Biblical Prophets seem to have all agreed that\nsacrifices to these powers is without practical value. This is\ndifferent from Latro's world.\n\nIs it heretical to believe that that magic (defined as prayers and\nsacrifices powers who are not God) *works\" even if you believe it is\nsomething that is wrong or hurtful to do? .I met a Christian erstwhile\nfortune-teller who said it definitely did work for him. But he wasn't\na theologian and his opinions on the source of its efficacy were more\nlike Paul's than Wolfe's; so, I guess that doesn't really prove\nanything.\n\nI suppose we'd have to drill down farther into what Wolfe truly\nbelieves and how strongly he believes it to know if he's a heretic or\nnot. Put him on the rack.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:45:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I made a mess of Paul's quote, let me try again:\n\n\"Paul's opinion was that: \"Idols are NOT truly divine and what is offered\nto them does not do any good.. But the gentiles sacrifice to demons,\nnot to God.\" (1 Cor 10:20)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nChurch Fathers did not in general make a point of saying pagan gods didn't\nexist. I don't think any considered them divine, but instead of angelic\nnature, though either fallen or miscontrued by their worshippers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For pagans, the difference between divine and merely \"higher\" is\nprobably splitting hairs. It is only an important difference for\nmonotheists.\n\nPaul's opinion was that: \"Idols are truly divine and what is offered\nto them does not dow any good.. But the gentiles sacrifice to demons,\nnot to God.\" (1 Cor 10:20)\n\nHe was glossing from Deuteronomy: \"They sacrificed to demons, which\nare not God. Gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared,\ngods your fathers did not fear.\"\n\nWolfe differs in accepting that the ancient gods might not always be\nmalevolent, but potentially even good. He might have received this\nfrom (or had it confirmed by) the Anglican C.S. Lewis who said almost\nthe same thing. (And in \"That Hideous Strength\" he portrayed the gods\nVenus and Mercury as powers not positively aligned to the rebellious\nLord of Earth,) This all sounds like something Chesterton might have\nopined, but I can't find anywhere he did.\n\nBut then again, CS Lewis's view of pagan gods portrayed in \"The Last\nBattle\" is certainly at odds with Paul's. So maybe it is all\nheretical.\n\nThe Fathers and the Biblical Prophets seem to have all agreed that\nsacrifices to these powers is without practical value. This is\ndifferent from Latro's world.\n\nIs it heretical to believe that that magic (defined as prayers and\nsacrifices powers who are not God) *works\" even if you believe it is\nsomething that is wrong or hurtful to do? .I met a Christian erstwhile\nfortune-teller who said it definitely did work for him. But he wasn't\na theologian and his opinions on the source of its efficacy were more\nlike Paul's than Wolfe's; so, I guess that doesn't really prove\nanything.\n\nI suppose we'd have to drill down farther into what Wolfe truly\nbelieves and how strongly he believes it to know if he's a heretic or\nnot. Put him on the rack.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:52:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chesterton in The Everlasting Man took a pretty firm position that the\nPhoenicians/Carthaginians were devil-worshippers. I can't recall if he took\na more charitable position on other pagan deities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 4:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI made a mess of Paul's quote, let me try again:\n\n\"Paul's opinion was that: \"Idols are NOT truly divine and what is offered\nto them does not do any good.. But the gentiles sacrifice to demons,\nnot to God.\" (1 Cor 10:20)\n\n On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Church Fathers did not in general make a point of saying pagan gods\ndidn't\nexist. I don't think any considered them divine, but instead of angelic\nnature, though either fallen or miscontrued by their worshippers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For pagans, the difference between divine and merely \"higher\" is\nprobably splitting hairs. It is only an important difference for\nmonotheists.\n\nPaul's opinion was that: \"Idols are truly divine and what is offered\nto them does not dow any good.. But the gentiles sacrifice to demons,\nnot to God.\" (1 Cor 10:20)\n\nHe was glossing from Deuteronomy: \"They sacrificed to demons, which\nare not God. Gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared,\ngods your fathers did not fear.\"\n\nWolfe differs in accepting that the ancient gods might not always be\nmalevolent, but potentially even good. He might have received this\nfrom (or had it confirmed by) the Anglican C.S. Lewis who said almost\nthe same thing. (And in \"That Hideous Strength\" he portrayed the gods\nVenus and Mercury as powers not positively aligned to the rebellious\nLord of Earth,) This all sounds like something Chesterton might have\nopined, but I can't find anywhere he did.\n\nBut then again, CS Lewis's view of pagan gods portrayed in \"The Last\nBattle\" is certainly at odds with Paul's. So maybe it is all\nheretical.\n\nThe Fathers and the Biblical Prophets seem to have all agreed that\nsacrifices to these powers is without practical value. This is\ndifferent from Latro's world.\n\nIs it heretical to believe that that magic (defined as prayers and\nsacrifices powers who are not God) *works\" even if you believe it is\nsomething that is wrong or hurtful to do? .I met a Christian erstwhile\nfortune-teller who said it definitely did work for him. But he wasn't\na theologian and his opinions on the source of its efficacy were more\nlike Paul's than Wolfe's; so, I guess that doesn't really prove\nanything.\n\nI suppose we'd have to drill down farther into what Wolfe truly\nbelieves and how strongly he believes it to know if he's a heretic or\nnot. Put him on the rack.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T20:54:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWolfe differs in accepting that the ancient gods might not always be\nmalevolent, but potentially even good. He might have received this\nfrom (or had it confirmed by) the Anglican C.S. Lewis who said almost\nthe same thing. (And in \"That Hideous Strength\" he portrayed the gods\nVenus and Mercury as powers not positively aligned to the rebellious\nLord of Earth,) This all sounds like something Chesterton might have\nopined, but I can't find anywhere he did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not just Venus and Mercury, but all the \"divine spirits\" of the\ntraditional Planets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then again, CS Lewis's view of pagan gods portrayed in \"The Last\nBattle\" is certainly at odds with Paul's. So maybe it is all\nheretical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Au contraire: to whatever extent the idea may be at odds with Paul's,\nthe idea that good acts offered to false gods seems to align perfectly\nwith what Jesus had to say on the subject, i.e., the Sheep and the\nGoats (\"When did I ever see you ...\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Fathers and the Biblical Prophets seem to have all agreed that\nsacrifices to these powers is without practical value. This is\ndifferent from Latro's world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True; but then, the Fathers seem to have done away with the idea of\nsacrifice entirely, other than self-sacrifice (including the sacrifice\nof the Eucharist, which is the ultimate self-sacrifice)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it heretical to believe that that magic (defined as prayers and\nsacrifices powers who are not God) *works\" even if you believe it is\nsomething that is wrong or hurtful to do? .I met a Christian erstwhile\nfortune-teller who said it definitely did work for him. But he wasn't\na theologian and his opinions on the source of its efficacy were more\nlike Paul's than Wolfe's; so, I guess that doesn't really prove\nanything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only is it not-heretical to suppose that magic works: it is quite\npossible to suppose that working some kinds of magic is not inherently\n\"sinful.\" The idea that it is is relatively recent, coming in with the\nlate Middle Ages/early Renaissance; before that a clear distinction\nwas made between _magia_ and _goetia_, magic and sorcery. The one had\nto do with using the inherent laws of created nature (as in alchemy),\nwhile the other was dealing with spirits (and was clearly forbidden)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose we'd have to drill down farther into what Wolfe truly\nbelieves and how strongly he believes it to know if he's a heretic or\nnot. Put him on the rack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll fetch the comfy chair and the soft cushion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T21:19:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But then again, CS Lewis's view of pagan gods portrayed in \"The Last\nBattle\" is certainly at odds with Paul's. So maybe it is all\nheretical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Au contraire: to whatever extent the idea may be at odds with Paul's,\nthe idea that good acts offered to false gods seems to align perfectly\nwith what Jesus had to say on the subject, i.e., the Sheep and the\nGoats (\"When did I ever see you ...\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, IIRC correctly, Aslan says to the Calorman \"Any good deed done\nfor Tash was actually done for me.\" I don't think this is far removed\nfrom \"sacrifices made to Tash were actually made to Aslan\", especially\nif the Calorman performed the sacrifices with an honest and devout\nheart, that is, with good intentions.But Paul positively repudiated\nthat sacrifices offered to idols were actually offered to God.\n\nI get what you mean by the \"Sheep and Goats\" example, but *Jesus's*\nfinal assessment of our good works is highly debatable. He also said\nthat good works done explicitly *in his Name* might be insufficient --\nthat some would cite such works and be told by Him \"Depart. I never\nknew you.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True; but then, the Fathers seem to have done away with the idea of\nsacrifice entirely, other than self-sacrifice (including the sacrifice\nof the Eucharist, which is the ultimate self-sacrifice)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted, but sacrifice is sacrifice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not only is it not-heretical to suppose that magic works: it is quite\npossible to suppose that working some kinds of magic is not inherently\n\"sinful.\" The idea that it is is relatively recent, coming in with the\nlate Middle Ages/early Renaissance; before that a clear distinction\nwas made between _magia_ and _goetia_, magic and sorcery. The one had\nto do with using the inherent laws of created nature (as in alchemy),\nwhile the other was dealing with spirits (and was clearly forbidden)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, many Christians have believed (and continue to believe) that\nmagic works. I doubt those who participated in the Salem witch trials\nthought the practitioners were harmless. But taking the Prophets and\nthe New Testament alone, the consenus seems to be that prayers to\nfalse gods are of no practical value.There was that witch who\nsuccessfully summoned the Prophet Samuel however.\nI suppose you're right, though. Enough Christians seem to have\nbelieved in the efficacy of magic that I doubt the belief could have\nbeen labeled heretical.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T22:29:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a discussion of Wolfe's views of other gods, it might be helpful to \nfactor in \"When I Was Ming the Merciless.\" All my books are in boxes right \nnow, alas, so I can't look up the passage, but maybe someone could find it and \n quote it to push this discussion along.\n \nThe passage I'm thinking of is the one where \"Ming\" talks about the Spirit \nof Yellow. The Yellows all bring trophies of war and present them to the \nSpirit of Yellow at the shrine they've built. Now of course there is no \nsuch thing as \"the Spirit of Yellow.\" It's something that they've just made \nup. It's a nothing in itself (just as much as \"team spirit,\" I suppose). \n \nBut, Ming says, when you start to do that -- when you start to pay homage \nto something like that -- ... and here's where my memory breaks down. He \nsays something like: When you start to do that, the thing you're worshipping \nand paying homage to takes on a new quality and becomes real.\n \nPlease, please: Someone find the passage and quote it.\n \nBut here's how that relates to the Bible. In some passages, the Bible \nindicates that there are no other gods. There is only Yahweh. All the other \nidols are nothings. But at the same time, the Bible indicates that those \nwho worship these idols are worshipping demons and those who eat at the \ntable of the false gods is communing with demons, as really as those who eat at \nthe Lord's Table are communing with the Lord and with His people, becoming \none bread, one body, with Him.\n \nA man cuts down a tree and fashions it into an idol and bows down to it and \n worships it. What is it? Well, one answer is: It's a hunk of wood, \ncarved a certain way, and nothing else. And that's a true answer, which leads \nthe prophets to mockery: You cut down the tree and part of it you burn to \ncook your food and the other part you worship. How ridiculous! But at the \nsame time, when you do that -- when you bow before the idol -- you are \ncommuning with demons. There's something real out there that attaches itself \nto the idol in terms of your worship of it. And that, it seems to me, is \nwhat Ming is talking about. \n \nAdd two more things:\n \n(1) The angels are called \"gods\" in the Bible. While that is disputed \nwhen it comes to, e.g., Psalm 97 or Psalm 8, these psalms are quoted in Hebrews \n 1 and 2 in connection with angels. Some of those angels are rebellious \nangels, which we now call demons. But some of the angels are faithful \nangels. So not all of these \"gods\" are evil by any means. The various nations, \nthe Bible says, were ruled by various angelic beings, one of whom is \nGabriel, who is good. He isn't God, but he is good and he is a ruler and can be \ncalled a \"god.\"\n \n(2) Many of the things that people have worshipped are simply creatures or \naspects of life, and not necessarily bad. Aphrodite is the goddess of \nlove. Love can become an idol and can be pursued idolatrously. If you \nworship love, if you make romantic love your highest ideal, etc., you are an \nidolater, even if you don't bow to the image of Aphrodite. But love is not \nevil. God is love. So if you put love in its proper place, under God, it \nceases to be an idol and becomes something good. (Charles Williams, following \nDante, would speak of romantic love, too, as something designed both to be \nenjoyed and to lead upwards to the love of God.) These created things are \ngreat in themselves, but they are not God. If they are treated as God, \nthey are demonic and evil. If they are put in their proper place under God, \nthey are good.\n \nAnd so, in Long Sun, the goddess of love is redeemed. And in There Are \nDoors, the paganish pursuit of love is presented as something that might, in \nthe end, lead to something good.\n \nI'm sorry this is so rough. Perhaps someone else (with the texts in front \nof him/her) can flesh this out a bit more.\n \nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<30595d42028d1bbff3dcfc67abe6dbc7@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T22:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 19 May 2010 12:51:10 -0700, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nwrote:\nOnly in broad terms. And we're wandering pretty far from the topic of the\nlist.\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:49 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you familiar with the observance of Toxcatl, Dan'l?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awww, c'mon, Dan'l. Have a heart!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF46926.5020500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T22:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe Fathers and the Biblical Prophets seem to have all agreed that\nsacrifices to these powers is without practical value. This is\ndifferent from Latro's world.\n\nIs it heretical to believe that that magic (defined as prayers and\nsacrifices powers who are not God) *works\" even if you believe it is\nsomething that is wrong or hurtful to do? .I met a Christian erstwhile\nfortune-teller who said it definitely did work for him. But he wasn't\na theologian and his opinions on the source of its efficacy were more\nlike Paul's than Wolfe's; so, I guess that doesn't really prove\nanything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again generally speaking, most pre-modern christians believed in the \nexistence of supernatural powers. There wasn't nor isn't anything heretical \nabout that. The thing is that christians believe such powers are as nothing \nin comparison to God, or can't even be compared. Certainly 'sorcery' can \nwork if the being it is addressed to has the will and power to answer - in \nan extreme example, if Satan can operate in the World, why not also through \nanswering such calls for assistance as are made to him?\n\nThe reason magic arts are condemned is certainly not because of their \ninneffectiveness, but their tainted nature of commerce with demons.\n\nBut there is also something in Christianity about demons being essentially \npowerless against wary and confident christians. Going all the way up to \nconsidering demons extinct at this time and age. For the modern common \nchristian, it's as if God had willed all such beings out of existence, and \nto hint otherwise sounds like questioning God or God's powers - which may be \nwhy at first sight people may think that admitting the existence of such \nbeings is heretical." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T22:50:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF46926.5020500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from\ndifferent stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion\nfrom one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of\nthe region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one\nof monotheism. The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has\nbeen to change the religion. This could be a side effect of\nstandardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the\nreligion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste\nand promulgated through the use of standard texts and \"orthodox\"\ntheology.\n\nThe Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents\nthe cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T23:05:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:29 PM, wrote:\nIn a discussion of Wolfe's views of other gods, it might be helpful to\nfactor in \"When I Was Ming the Merciless.\"? All my books are in boxes right\nnow, alas, so I can't look up the passage, but maybe someone could find it\nand quote it to push this discussion along.\n\nThe passage I'm thinking of is the one where \"Ming\" talks about the Spirit\nof Yellow. The Yellows all bring trophies of war and present them to the\nSpirit of Yellow at the shrine they've built. Now of course there is no\nsuch thing as \"the Spirit of Yellow.\" It's something that they've just made\nup. It's a nothing in itself (just as much as \"team spirit,\" I suppose).\n\nBut, Ming says, when you start to do that -- when you start to pay homage to\nsomething like that -- ... and here's where my memory breaks down. He says\nsomething like: When you start to do that, the thing you're worshipping and\npaying homage to takes on a new quality and becomes real.\n\nPlease, please: Someone find the passage and quote it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Courtesy of the ebooks some have execrated, from _Endangered Species_:\n\n\"No, we didn't worship the Lung-Rin. It was a symbol,\nthat's all. In the long run, if you know what I mean, we were\nthe Lung-Rin. We had ceremonies, yes. We set up a figure\nto represent all the Yellows. Don made it of wood and leather,\nand that was the center of the ceremonies. Althea helped\nhim with the face, and I had her make it look something like\nme-you understand, a little psychology. It's odd, but you\ncan make a thing like that, and have everyone bow in front\nof it, and offer it the things we took in war, and after a time\nit becomes . . I don't know, something more. More than just\nthe figure you set up in the beginning. Have you talked to\nDon?\n\"He had a theory-I don't know whether he believed it\nhimself. I didn't, but still. . . . There was something in it. Do\nyou understand what I mean? It wasn't true; but still. . . .\n\"All right, here's what he thought. Or anyway, what he\nsaid he thought. That there are things we don't know about\nthat live in the world with us-things in another plane of\nreality. And when you make something like that, it comes-\none of them comes. It shapes itself to fit your image of it,\nbecoming the real Spirit of the Yellows. Anyway, when we\nhad the torchlight processions, sometimes you might think\nyou could see it move. It was just the flickering light, of\ncourse, and the fact that because it was so tall the face was\nilluminated from the bottom. Any face will look strange when\nyou light it from below, I suppose. We caught rats and pi-\ngeons when we built it and put them inside, so it would make\nstrange sounds; some of them must have lived a long time.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6701.67.142.130.26.1274310391.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T23:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF46926.5020500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just about everybody believes in the existence of supernatural powers.\n\nSome people consistently assert that they do not, and some fewer people\nhave convinced themselves that they do not.\n\nNot believing in supernatural powers is only a win if they don't actually\nexist.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Fathers and the Biblical Prophets seem to have all agreed that\nsacrifices to these powers is without practical value. This is\ndifferent from Latro's world.\n\nIs it heretical to believe that that magic (defined as prayers and\nsacrifices powers who are not God) *works\" even if you believe it is\nsomething that is wrong or hurtful to do? .I met a Christian erstwhile\nfortune-teller who said it definitely did work for him. But he wasn't\na theologian and his opinions on the source of its efficacy were more\nlike Paul's than Wolfe's; so, I guess that doesn't really prove\nanything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again generally speaking, most pre-modern christians believed in the\nexistence of supernatural powers. There wasn't nor isn't anything\nheretical\nabout that. The thing is that christians believe such powers are as\nnothing\nin comparison to God, or can't even be compared. Certainly 'sorcery' can\nwork if the being it is addressed to has the will and power to answer - in\nan extreme example, if Satan can operate in the World, why not also\nthrough\nanswering such calls for assistance as are made to him?\n\nThe reason magic arts are condemned is certainly not because of their\ninneffectiveness, but their tainted nature of commerce with demons.\n\nBut there is also something in Christianity about demons being essentially\npowerless against wary and confident christians. Going all the way up to\nconsidering demons extinct at this time and age. For the modern common\nchristian, it's as if God had willed all such beings out of existence, and\nto hint otherwise sounds like questioning God or God's powers - which may\nbe\nwhy at first sight people may think that admitting the existence of such\nbeings is heretical.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-19T23:18:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nRemember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from\ndifferent stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion\nfrom one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of\nthe region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one\nof monotheism. The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has\nbeen to change the religion. This could be a side effect of\nstandardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the\nreligion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste\nand promulgated through the use of standard texts and \"orthodox\"\ntheology.\n\nThe Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents\nthe cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's one theory, certainly, but it's not uncontroversial even among\ncomparative religionists. Judaism was constantly cheek-by-jowl with\npaganism, and there was a constant struggle to keep it free of the religious\nobservances of \"the nations\". There is an observable change from the\nPentateuch's language concerning other gods (what Max Mueller termed\n\"henotheistic\") to that of the later Writings and Prophets, but that may not\nbe as significant as Mueller thought it was. And Mueller himself was far\nfrom an objective observer, since his teleology leads ultimately to a\nnon-personal, transcendent God which is inseparable from Nature--familiar to\nthose who have read widely in late 19th-century liberal Christianity.\n\nI will grumpily admit, however, that \"henotheism\" is a useful word.\n\nJust a brief comment on Antonio's point earlier : The position of the\nVatican, as far as I'm aware, is that Satan indeed has objective existence,\nand power to tempt humanity. Magic has always been forbidden (despite\nRenaissance speculations and hair-splitting), not because it doesn't work,\nbut because one petitions the wrong forces in using it. In James Blish's\nexcellent novel *The Day After Judgment*, the black magician Theron Ware\nupbraids a Dominican who practices ritual magic and divination by saying\nsomething like \"There is no such thing as 'white magic'. It is all black,\nblack, black as the ace of spades.\" That's the official RC position as near\nas I can figure, and although to believe in the efficacy of sorcery might be\nold-fashioned, it ain't heretical." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nI feel again a spark of that ancient flame.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. IV, l. 23" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4510.67.142.130.26.1274311560.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-19T23:26:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Satan works for the Management.\n\nYou're not supposed to have to do with him: better, if you are lucky he\nwon't have anything to do with you. You hope he doesn't have to do with\nyou.\n\nWhen he thinks someone is doing really well, he brings him to God's\nattention. Everything after that is on God. God can choose not do test\nyou, and presumably does occasionally, since good people do ocasionally do\nwell without the kinds of ups and downs Job had.\n\nIt is not ever good to come to the attention of the powerful.\n\nBut if you have to do with him professionally, or in the course of your\nbusiness, it's not necessarily a huge deal. It all depends on your\natttitude.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from\ndifferent stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion\nfrom one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of\nthe region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one\nof monotheism. The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has\nbeen to change the religion. This could be a side effect of\nstandardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the\nreligion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste\nand promulgated through the use of standard texts and \"orthodox\"\ntheology.\n\nThe Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents\nthe cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's one theory, certainly, but it's not uncontroversial even among\ncomparative religionists. Judaism was constantly cheek-by-jowl with\npaganism, and there was a constant struggle to keep it free of the\nreligious\nobservances of \"the nations\". There is an observable change from the\nPentateuch's language concerning other gods (what Max Mueller termed\n\"henotheistic\") to that of the later Writings and Prophets, but that may\nnot\nbe as significant as Mueller thought it was. And Mueller himself was far\nfrom an objective observer, since his teleology leads ultimately to a\nnon-personal, transcendent God which is inseparable from Nature--familiar\nto\nthose who have read widely in late 19th-century liberal Christianity.\n\nI will grumpily admit, however, that \"henotheism\" is a useful word.\n\nJust a brief comment on Antonio's point earlier : The position of the\nVatican, as far as I'm aware, is that Satan indeed has objective\nexistence,\nand power to tempt humanity. Magic has always been forbidden (despite\nRenaissance speculations and hair-splitting), not because it doesn't work,\nbut because one petitions the wrong forces in using it. In James Blish's\nexcellent novel *The Day After Judgment*, the black magician Theron Ware\nupbraids a Dominican who practices ritual magic and divination by saying\nsomething like \"There is no such thing as 'white magic'. It is all black,\nblack, black as the ace of spades.\" That's the official RC position as\nnear\nas I can figure, and although to believe in the efficacy of sorcery might\nbe\nold-fashioned, it ain't heretical.\n\n\n\n\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nI feel again a spark of that ancient flame.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. IV, l. 23\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T00:20:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4510.67.142.130.26.1274311560.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The term \"Satan\" means accuser, and in most texts, the angel known as\n\"Satan\" (which can be a term of office as well as name, acts as \"God's\nprosecutor,\" seeking to tempt man into sin. Consider the book of Job:\n Satan is given free reign to walk into heaven and make a challenge to\nGod, basically betting on Job's life. God ultimately wins (Job is\nfound righteous through his trial) but it is Satan that puts him to\nthe test.\n\nA lot of this gets obscured throughout the ages as words and terms are\ntranslated and Christianity begins to piggyback onto folk beliefs,\nplus every two-bit occultist throughout history who has muddied the\nwaters with their ravings. The difference between an Anton LaVey and\na more \"respectable\" occultist like Albertus Magnus is one of age, not\nnecessarily credibility.\n\nAs I understand Catholic doctrine (again, not a Catholic myself), none\nof the angels that fell with Lucifer are able to take action directly\nagainst humans, because like all angels, they lack independent will.\nHowever, they are able to tempt humans and humans are free to enter\ninto exchanges with them for supernatural efficacy, e.g., spells or\nmagic.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:26 PM, wrote:\nSatan works for the Management.\n\nYou're not supposed to have to do with him: better, if you are lucky he\nwon't have anything to do with you. You hope he doesn't have to do with\nyou.\n\nWhen he thinks someone is doing really well, he brings him to God's\nattention. Everything after that is on God. God can choose not do test\nyou, and presumably does occasionally, since good people do ocasionally do\nwell without the kinds of ups and downs Job had.\n\nIt is not ever good to come to the attention of the powerful.\n\nBut if you have to do with him professionally, or in the course of your\nbusiness, it's not necessarily a huge deal. It all depends on your\natttitude.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Remember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from\ndifferent stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion\nfrom one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of\nthe region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one\nof monotheism. ?The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has\nbeen to change the religion. ?This could be a side effect of\nstandardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the\nreligion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste\nand promulgated through the use of standard texts and \"orthodox\"\ntheology.\n\nThe Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents\nthe cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12758.67.142.130.26.1274315508.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-20T00:31:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The term haSatan (The Accuser) is the title of an office.\n\nIn esoteric Judaism, you learn that this office is filled, aeon after\naeon, by various archangels, and that the archangel who was filling the\noffice in Job's time and is still fulfilling it in ours is Gabriel.\n\nHe performs this office twice that is recorded in the Bible, and of course\nhe performs this office every day. The two times in the Bible his client\nis Job on the one hand and Jesus on the other.\n\nChristians of various stripes and types have various other ideas which\nthey take from the common religion, or the religion of the World, or\nZoroastrianism or whatever.\n\nThis is all discussed in the various Mishnahs and Talmuds and so on,\ncopies of which I need to obtain at some point.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The term \"Satan\" means accuser, and in most texts, the angel known as\n\"Satan\" (which can be a term of office as well as name, acts as \"God's\nprosecutor,\" seeking to tempt man into sin. Consider the book of Job:\n Satan is given free reign to walk into heaven and make a challenge to\nGod, basically betting on Job's life. God ultimately wins (Job is\nfound righteous through his trial) but it is Satan that puts him to\nthe test.\n\nA lot of this gets obscured throughout the ages as words and terms are\ntranslated and Christianity begins to piggyback onto folk beliefs,\nplus every two-bit occultist throughout history who has muddied the\nwaters with their ravings. The difference between an Anton LaVey and\na more \"respectable\" occultist like Albertus Magnus is one of age, not\nnecessarily credibility.\n\nAs I understand Catholic doctrine (again, not a Catholic myself), none\nof the angels that fell with Lucifer are able to take action directly\nagainst humans, because like all angels, they lack independent will.\nHowever, they are able to tempt humans and humans are free to enter\ninto exchanges with them for supernatural efficacy, e.g., spells or\nmagic.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:26 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Satan works for the Management.\n\nYou're not supposed to have to do with him: better, if you are lucky he\nwon't have anything to do with you. You hope he doesn't have to do with\nyou.\n\nWhen he thinks someone is doing really well, he brings him to God's\nattention. Everything after that is on God. God can choose not do test\nyou, and presumably does occasionally, since good people do ocasionally\ndo\nwell without the kinds of ups and downs Job had.\n\nIt is not ever good to come to the attention of the powerful.\n\nBut if you have to do with him professionally, or in the course of your\nbusiness, it's not necessarily a huge deal. It all depends on your\natttitude.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Lane Haygood \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Remember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from\ndifferent stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion\nfrom one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of\nthe region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one\nof monotheism. ?The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has\nbeen to change the religion. ?This could be a side effect of\nstandardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the\nreligion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste\nand promulgated through the use of standard texts and \"orthodox\"\ntheology.\n\nThe Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents\nthe cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14736.67.142.130.26.1274315962.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-20T00:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<12758.67.142.130.26.1274315508.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see Aa Gabriel (by the theory) as issuing a challenge, but as\nfulfilling the duties of his office.\n\nDoes not the conversation run more or less like this?:\n\nGod: Have you seen Job? He's pretty good.\n\nAaG: Not as good as you think: He's good because you treat him well.\n\nIt's a stretch to see what follows as a challenge on Satan's part.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The term haSatan (The Accuser) is the title of an office.\n\nIn esoteric Judaism, you learn that this office is filled, aeon after\naeon, by various archangels, and that the archangel who was filling the\noffice in Job's time and is still fulfilling it in ours is Gabriel.\n\nHe performs this office twice that is recorded in the Bible, and of course\nhe performs this office every day. The two times in the Bible his client\nis Job on the one hand and Jesus on the other.\n\nChristians of various stripes and types have various other ideas which\nthey take from the common religion, or the religion of the World, or\nZoroastrianism or whatever.\n\nThis is all discussed in the various Mishnahs and Talmuds and so on,\ncopies of which I need to obtain at some point.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The term \"Satan\" means accuser, and in most texts, the angel known as\n\"Satan\" (which can be a term of office as well as name, acts as \"God's\nprosecutor,\" seeking to tempt man into sin. Consider the book of Job:\n Satan is given free reign to walk into heaven and make a challenge to\nGod, basically betting on Job's life. God ultimately wins (Job is\nfound righteous through his trial) but it is Satan that puts him to\nthe test.\n\nA lot of this gets obscured throughout the ages as words and terms are\ntranslated and Christianity begins to piggyback onto folk beliefs,\nplus every two-bit occultist throughout history who has muddied the\nwaters with their ravings. The difference between an Anton LaVey and\na more \"respectable\" occultist like Albertus Magnus is one of age, not\nnecessarily credibility.\n\nAs I understand Catholic doctrine (again, not a Catholic myself), none\nof the angels that fell with Lucifer are able to take action directly\nagainst humans, because like all angels, they lack independent will.\nHowever, they are able to tempt humans and humans are free to enter\ninto exchanges with them for supernatural efficacy, e.g., spells or\nmagic.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:26 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Satan works for the Management.\n\nYou're not supposed to have to do with him: better, if you are lucky he\nwon't have anything to do with you. You hope he doesn't have to do with\nyou.\n\nWhen he thinks someone is doing really well, he brings him to God's\nattention. Everything after that is on God. God can choose not do test\nyou, and presumably does occasionally, since good people do ocasionally\ndo\nwell without the kinds of ups and downs Job had.\n\nIt is not ever good to come to the attention of the powerful.\n\nBut if you have to do with him professionally, or in the course of your\nbusiness, it's not necessarily a huge deal. It all depends on your\natttitude.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Lane Haygood \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Remember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from\ndifferent stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion\nfrom one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of\nthe region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one\nof monotheism. ?The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has\nbeen to change the religion. ?This could be a side effect of\nstandardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the\nreligion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste\nand promulgated through the use of standard texts and \"orthodox\"\ntheology.\n\nThe Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents\nthe cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<440655.35753.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T01:18:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Reading", "in_reply_to": "<14736.67.142.130.26.1274315962.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All the theological discussion makes me wonder: Do we have a list anywhere of specifically non-fiction books that Wolfe has actually mentioned or read? Castle of Days mentions various linguistic references, but what about philosophy or theology? It seems that if we had a better grasp of what specific texts Wolfe is familiar with, a lot of these discussions would be more focused and less speculative.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF48EA5.3070908@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T01:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/19/2010 7:20 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nAs I understand Catholic doctrine (again, not a Catholic myself), none\nof the angels that fell with Lucifer are able to take action directly\nagainst humans, because like all angels, they lack independent will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does the lack of free will prevent direct action against humans?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T01:42:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Reading", "in_reply_to": "<440655.35753.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In one interview, Wolfe claimed to have gone through phases in which he read\n\"everything\" he could obtain by Chesterton and Lewis. Without specific\nreferences, I think it is very, very safet to assume that he has read:\n\nChesterton\n-The Everlasting Man\n-Orthodoxy\n-Charles Dickens\n-Thomas Aquinas\n-The Man Who Was Thursday\n-The Ballad of the White Horse\n-Pretty much all of Father Brown\n\nLewis\n-All seven Narnia books\n-All three Ransom books\n-Screwtape\n-Mere Christianity\n-Till We Have Faces\n-The Great Divorce\n-The Discarded Image\n\nHe's also evidently read not only The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but\nalso Leaf by Niggle and probably Smith of Wootten Major." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nAll the theological discussion makes me wonder: Do we have a list anywhere\nof specifically non-fiction books that Wolfe has actually mentioned or read?\nCastle of Days mentions various linguistic references, but what about\nphilosophy or theology? It seems that if we had a better grasp of what\nspecific texts Wolfe is familiar with, a lot of these discussions would be\nmore focused and less speculative.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T04:06:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF48EA5.3070908@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps this well-known quote is relevant here. Toward the\nend is, maybe, a statement regarding gnosticicm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us;\nwe are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When\nsoldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped\na profile of the Autarch. The acceptance of that coin is their\nacceptance of the special duties and burdens of military \nlife--they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know\nnothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but\nit is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such\nthings to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to\nbelieve in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The\nwould-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge;\nrational people know that things act of themselves or not at all. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T14:56:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Reading", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has recommended Robert Graves' \"The Greek Myths\". He's implied that\nhe has not finished \"The White Goddess\". \"Only enough to know he was\ncrazy\" was sort of how he phrased it IIRC." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF55DAD.2050607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-20T16:05:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<6701.67.142.130.26.1274310391.squirrel@www.brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/19/2010 6:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nJust about everybody believes in the existence of supernatural powers.\n\nSome people consistently assert that they do not, and some fewer people\nhave convinced themselves that they do not.\n\nNot believing in supernatural powers is only a win if they don't actually\nexist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actual existence in a context that is beyond nature seems like a \ncombination of attributes that is almost free of meaning. If the \nsupernatural powers have ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense \nonly subjective spiritual gifts, where's the loss?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6022.67.142.130.22.1274371755.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-20T16:09:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF55DAD.2050607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense only\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what you\nbelieve.\n\nIt was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous escape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/19/2010 6:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just about everybody believes in the existence of supernatural powers.\n\nSome people consistently assert that they do not, and some fewer people\nhave convinced themselves that they do not.\n\nNot believing in supernatural powers is only a win if they don't\nactually\nexist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actual existence in a context that is beyond nature seems like a\ncombination of attributes that is almost free of meaning. If the\nsupernatural powers have ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly subjective spiritual gifts, where's the loss?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF5ED8F.1060703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T02:18:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<6022.67.142.130.22.1274371755.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense only\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what you\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous escape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as \nopposed to subjective existence), however." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3420.67.142.130.22.1274410290.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T02:51:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF5ED8F.1060703@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what you\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<99816299-6FE4-4FCA-88C7-9F2601F38974@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<3420.67.142.130.22.1274410290.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I care about Jeff.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2010, at 9:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what you\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B752EFE-AAFB-4EE6-9632-A2E4C1EA1E53@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Robert Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:01:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<3420.67.142.130.22.1274410290.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what do you say to your fellow solipsists?\n\nrob" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2010, at 10:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what you\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2751ACB0-F5AB-4F8A-A3C5-81E3A42A6D17@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<3B752EFE-AAFB-4EE6-9632-A2E4C1EA1E53@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Robert Thornton wrote:\n\nSo what do you say to your fellow solipsists?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Bite me.\"\n\nAdam\n\nP.S. Why are my teeth sore?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF5F971.9010104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:09:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<3420.67.142.130.22.1274410290.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 9:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You do, if you want to meaningfully communicate about actual existence." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF5F9D0.6010601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:11:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<99816299-6FE4-4FCA-88C7-9F2601F38974@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:00 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI care about Jeff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love you, man!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5264.67.142.130.22.1274412213.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:23:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<99816299-6FE4-4FCA-88C7-9F2601F38974@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good! I am also, actually, well disposed towards him.\n\nIs it important to you that he believes a particular way?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I care about Jeff.\n\nLane\n\nOn May 20, 2010, at 9:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what\nyou\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12071.67.142.130.22.1274412410.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:26:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<3B752EFE-AAFB-4EE6-9632-A2E4C1EA1E53@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's also established for people who have had similar experiences to mine.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nI have in fact discussed such things with folks who have had similar\nexperiences.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what do you say to your fellow solipsists?\n\nrob\n\nOn May 20, 2010, at 10:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what\nyou\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6550.67.142.130.22.1274412627.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:30:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<2751ACB0-F5AB-4F8A-A3C5-81E3A42A6D17@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been known to say that also.\n\nAnd, you know, go into some detail about various anatomical peculiarities\nmy interlocutor may encounter whilst proctosculating me.\n\nEtc.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Robert Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So what do you say to your fellow solipsists?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Bite me.\"\n\nAdam\n\nP.S. Why are my teeth sore?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14895.67.142.130.22.1274412679.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:31:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF5F971.9010104@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 9:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You do, if you want to meaningfully communicate about actual existence.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8060B82C-0037-4D93-A994-004D2BCECF7E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Robert Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:33:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<12071.67.142.130.22.1274412410.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I respect your opinion. From my vantage point, most belief in the supernatural is based in our instinctive reflex to impose cause and effect on everything.\n\nrob" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2010, at 11:26 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's also established for people who have had similar experiences to mine.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nI have in fact discussed such things with folks who have had similar\nexperiences.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So what do you say to your fellow solipsists?\n\nrob\n\nOn May 20, 2010, at 10:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and dispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what\nyou\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's nothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and parallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<827377.82167.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:36:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<14895.67.142.130.22.1274412679.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Will whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the subject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and without snark.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF600B2.9040905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:40:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<12071.67.142.130.22.1274412410.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:26 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's also established for people who have had similar experiences to mine.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I happen to agree with this very strongly, in that the qualities of the \nknowledge is often very heavily dependent on the qualities of the \nexperience. I have objective knowledge that springs from objective \nexperience as well as subjective knowledge that springs from very \npersonal, subjective experiences. But I am careful to distinguish \nbetween them where they disagree. I am not the buddha, but I have \ngrasped this bit of the buddha-nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have in fact discussed such things with folks who have had similar\nexperiences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you have objective reasons to think they have, or is the belief based \non their consistent assertion that they have?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF601B1.4080706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:44:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Steamboat Pilot", "in_reply_to": "<827377.82167.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:36 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nWill whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the subject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and without snark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doubtless Wolfe has read Twain. Does anyone see a particular influlence \non Wolfe, other than the probably accidental superficial plot \nsimilarities between HUCK FINN and BOTNS?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5265.67.142.130.22.1274413494.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:44:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<8060B82C-0037-4D93-A994-004D2BCECF7E@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How many miraculous escapes from death have you had?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I respect your opinion. From my vantage point, most belief in the\nsupernatural is based in our instinctive reflex to impose cause and effect\non everything.\n\nrob\n\n\n\nOn May 20, 2010, at 11:26 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's also established for people who have had similar experiences to\nmine.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nI have in fact discussed such things with folks who have had similar\nexperiences.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So what do you say to your fellow solipsists?\n\nrob\n\nOn May 20, 2010, at 10:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's established for me.\n\nYou, who cares about you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 5/20/2010 11:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I never said that they 'ceased to provide fishing tackle and\ndispense\nonly\nsubjective spiritual gifts'. If that's what you believe, that's what\nyou\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's a HUCK FINN reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It was, let me see, I was mostly convinced by my second miraculous\nescape\nfrom death, but the third one was definitely the clincher, with the\nclassical answered prayers and all. There's been several since then.\n\nI don't know if I'd call what I believe supernatural. There's\nnothing\nbeyond nature. Nature, however, has a number of poorly documented\nfeatures.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience. Telepathy, bilocation and\nparallel\nWorlds are all within mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You've yet to contribute to establishing their actual existence (as\nopposed to subjective existence), however.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12183.67.142.130.22.1274413537.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:45:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<827377.82167.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The hell you do.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Will whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the\nsubject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and\nwithout snark.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<474375.62781.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Steamboat Pilot", "in_reply_to": "<4BF601B1.4080706@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TWK is obviously just a reboot of _A Connecticut Yankee_...\n\nBut, seriously, couldn't we at least put an OT or \"Off Topic\" in the subject line once discussions go severely off-Wolfe-related-topic?\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thu, May 20, 2010 10:44:49 PM\nSubject: (urth) Wolfe as Steamboat Pilot" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:36 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nWill whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the subject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and without snark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doubtless Wolfe has read Twain. Does anyone see a particular influlence on Wolfe, other than the probably accidental superficial plot similarities between HUCK FINN and BOTNS?\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5077.67.142.130.22.1274413697.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:48:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF600B2.9040905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In at least one case it is based upon a shared experience.\n\nNot a miraculous escape from death, but something truly wierd.\n\nI've been around the block a couple of times.\n\nI don't expect people who don't share my peculiar experiences to share my\nbeliefs.\n\nAs I say, what you believe doesn't matter to me. You may believe what you\nlike.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:26 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's also established for people who have had similar experiences to\nmine.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I happen to agree with this very strongly, in that the qualities of the\nknowledge is often very heavily dependent on the qualities of the\nexperience. I have objective knowledge that springs from objective\nexperience as well as subjective knowledge that springs from very\npersonal, subjective experiences. But I am careful to distinguish\nbetween them where they disagree. I am not the buddha, but I have\ngrasped this bit of the buddha-nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have in fact discussed such things with folks who have had similar\nexperiences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have objective reasons to think they have, or is the belief based\non their consistent assertion that they have?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<243200.39975.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:49:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<12183.67.142.130.22.1274413537.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talk about whatever you want. I don't even care if it ends up in my mailbox. I just want to know if I can delete it without having to read it first. I like to think that emails from a Gene Wolfe mailing list with \"Wolfe\" in the subject line might actually be about Wolfe rather than someone's own personal theology and other peoples' arguments about it.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:37 PM\nSubject: (urth) Gene Wolfe\n\nThe hell you do.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Will whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the\nsubject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and\nwithout snark.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7368.67.142.130.22.1274413821.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:50:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Steamboat Pilot", "in_reply_to": "<474375.62781.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God gave you freewill.\n\nRUSH and Ayn Rand remain unhappy about this.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TWK is obviously just a reboot of _A Connecticut Yankee_...\n\nBut, seriously, couldn't we at least put an OT or \"Off Topic\" in the\nsubject line once discussions go severely off-Wolfe-related-topic?\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thu, May 20, 2010 10:44:49 PM\nSubject: (urth) Wolfe as Steamboat Pilot\n\nOn 5/20/2010 10:36 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Will whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the\nsubject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and\nwithout snark." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doubtless Wolfe has read Twain. Does anyone see a particular influlence on\nWolfe, other than the probably accidental superficial plot similarities\nbetween HUCK FINN and BOTNS?\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6999.67.142.130.22.1274414034.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<243200.39975.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are things that are under your control and things that are not under\nyour control.\n\nI often receive mails that I do not wish to read and do not read.\n\nI follow this simple procedure, which I recommend to you.\n\nMy mailer exposes normally four to half a dozen lines of the post.\n\nI can tell if I wish to read it from those lines.\n\nIf I do not wish to read a post, I look at it for perhaps a quarter of a\nsecond, and delete it.\n\nI then spend absolutely no time bitching, whining, complaining or\nprotesting. I move right on the next post.\n\nYou understand, the exact number of lines is unimportant. You don't even\nhave to read them all.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Talk about whatever you want. I don't even care if it ends up in my\nmailbox. I just want to know if I can delete it without having to read it\nfirst. I like to think that emails from a Gene Wolfe mailing list with\n\"Wolfe\" in the subject line might actually be about Wolfe rather than\nsomeone's own personal theology and other peoples' arguments about it.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:37 PM\nSubject: (urth) Gene Wolfe\n\nThe hell you do.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Will whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the\nsubject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and\nwithout snark.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14989.67.142.130.22.1274414090.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:54:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF6040C.1080900@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because I choose to.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:48 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In at least one case it is based upon a shared experience.\n\nNot a miraculous escape from death, but something truly wierd.\n\nI've been around the block a couple of times.\n\nI don't expect people who don't share my peculiar experiences to share\nmy\nbeliefs.\n\nAs I say, what you believe doesn't matter to me. You may believe what\nyou\nlike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then why are you talking?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF6040C.1080900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:54:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<5077.67.142.130.22.1274413697.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:48 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIn at least one case it is based upon a shared experience.\n\nNot a miraculous escape from death, but something truly wierd.\n\nI've been around the block a couple of times.\n\nI don't expect people who don't share my peculiar experiences to share my\nbeliefs.\n\nAs I say, what you believe doesn't matter to me. You may believe what you\nlike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "then why are you talking?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T03:59:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<243200.39975.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nTalk about whatever you want. I don't even care if it ends up in my\nmailbox. I just want to know if I can delete it without having to read it\nfirst. I like to think that emails from a Gene Wolfe mailing list with\n\"Wolfe\" in the subject line might actually be about Wolfe rather than\nsomeone's own personal theology and other peoples' arguments about it.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:37 PM\nSubject: (urth) Gene Wolfe\n\nThe hell you do.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Will whoever actually writes about Gene Wolfe next please change the\nsubject line so I know to start reading again. I mean that sincerely and\nwithout snark.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF605B6.7040306@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T04:01:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<14989.67.142.130.22.1274414090.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nBecause I choose to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least you're sincere about being insincere." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BF60615.2050200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T04:03:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:59 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI have to agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just Brunians' time of the month, it'll pass." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4175.67.142.130.22.1274414629.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-21T04:03:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe as Heretic", "in_reply_to": "<4BF605B6.7040306@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a sincere guy.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2010 10:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because I choose to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least you're sincere about being insincere.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greg Bates", "address": "tedkennedyrolls at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-21T15:48:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Reading", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's also read Bulgakov's \"The Master and Margarita\" (which, incidentally, I\nalways thought he got the idea for abducting a woman named\nCatherine/Katherine each year for the Feast of St. Katherine)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:56 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nHe has recommended Robert Graves' \"The Greek Myths\". He's implied that\nhe has not finished \"The White Goddess\". \"Only enough to know he was\ncrazy\" was sort of how he phrased it IIRC.\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }