{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5614", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5614, "subject": "hello,\n\tanyone want to talk BOTNS? If so - Jolenta and her Guild?", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-05-30T01:42:33+00:00", "last": "2010-05-30T23:23:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4C01C289.1090308@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-05-30T01:42:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) hello,\n\tanyone want to talk BOTNS? If so - Jolenta and her Guild?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello? Is there anybody out there?\n\nJust about a third of the way through my fifth or sixth rereading of \nBOTNS and wondering if anyone has any insights to offer on a few things \nI never noticed before (there are always things one didn't notice before!).\n\nOn this occasion - when Severian meets up with Dr. Talos's Players at \nCtesiphon's Cross (even tho' he meant to do no such thing!) Jolenta at \none point remarks to him regarding the Wall of Nessus that she could see \nit as a line of black on the northern horizon 'from the glass-roofed \nroom *at the top of our tower*'.\n\nNow I've read a little more I am aware of the interpretation placed upon \nthis by Robert Borski who extrapolates that Jolenta, whose original name \nwe are never told, was possibly raised amongst the Witches and may \nindeed be Severian's lost twin sister. Whatever the truth of this, it's \ncertainly clear that Jolenta has known a life where she dwelt in a tower \nhigh enough to view the Wall even from the midst of Nessus, and that in \naddition, like Severian himself, she once knew a fellowship close enough \nthat even after some time, during which she has either left voluntarily \nor been ejected for some infraction, she (like Severian, again) still \nrefers to her former comrades as 'us'; it is 'OUR tower'.\n\nHowever this does not afford proof that she was ever apprenticed to the \nWitches; whilst the Witches' Guild is the only one we are told of which \nis exclusively female, Severian is careful to tell us that most guilds \n(saving his own, that of the Beast-Masters and that of the Witches) do \nadmit both sexes. So even if Jolenta does remember a childhood in a \nGuild Tower within the Citadel (and there's no suggestion that all \nGuilds have their headquarters in this area, whether within ship/Towers \nor not, so she could have been raised in a Tower outside the citadel, or \neven within some entirely different kind of structure which could none \nthe less have qualified as a 'tower' and sported a glass roof of a \ndifferent sort) there's no certainty that this was the tower of the \nWitches. She could have been an upholsterers' apprentice perhaps; or an \napothecaries'.\n\nI wonder if anyone on the list has any views on the subject? Asking, \nbecause as someone who has read BOTNS several times it was really \nstriking to me really to notice this phrase for the first time (I'm sure \nI've read it many times without taking in the possible implications).\n\nApologies to all if this is a simple beginner's question and merely \nbetrays that I haven't been following the fandom for some years - this \nis quite true, and I'm currently trying to catch up.\n\ncheers and thanks\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3127d6e3aa214bf430474569b67be6e8.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-05-30T02:00:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) hello,\n anyone want to talk BOTNS? If so - Jolenta and her Guild?", "in_reply_to": "<4C01C289.1090308@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a real interesting idea.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hello? Is there anybody out there?\n\nJust about a third of the way through my fifth or sixth rereading of\nBOTNS and wondering if anyone has any insights to offer on a few things\nI never noticed before (there are always things one didn't notice\nbefore!).\n\nOn this occasion - when Severian meets up with Dr. Talos's Players at\nCtesiphon's Cross (even tho' he meant to do no such thing!) Jolenta at\none point remarks to him regarding the Wall of Nessus that she could see\nit as a line of black on the northern horizon 'from the glass-roofed\nroom *at the top of our tower*'.\n\nNow I've read a little more I am aware of the interpretation placed upon\nthis by Robert Borski who extrapolates that Jolenta, whose original name\nwe are never told, was possibly raised amongst the Witches and may\nindeed be Severian's lost twin sister. Whatever the truth of this, it's\ncertainly clear that Jolenta has known a life where she dwelt in a tower\nhigh enough to view the Wall even from the midst of Nessus, and that in\naddition, like Severian himself, she once knew a fellowship close enough\nthat even after some time, during which she has either left voluntarily\nor been ejected for some infraction, she (like Severian, again) still\nrefers to her former comrades as 'us'; it is 'OUR tower'.\n\nHowever this does not afford proof that she was ever apprenticed to the\nWitches; whilst the Witches' Guild is the only one we are told of which\nis exclusively female, Severian is careful to tell us that most guilds\n(saving his own, that of the Beast-Masters and that of the Witches) do\nadmit both sexes. So even if Jolenta does remember a childhood in a\nGuild Tower within the Citadel (and there's no suggestion that all\nGuilds have their headquarters in this area, whether within ship/Towers\nor not, so she could have been raised in a Tower outside the citadel, or\neven within some entirely different kind of structure which could none\nthe less have qualified as a 'tower' and sported a glass roof of a\ndifferent sort) there's no certainty that this was the tower of the\nWitches. She could have been an upholsterers' apprentice perhaps; or an\napothecaries'.\n\nI wonder if anyone on the list has any views on the subject? Asking,\nbecause as someone who has read BOTNS several times it was really\nstriking to me really to notice this phrase for the first time (I'm sure\nI've read it many times without taking in the possible implications).\n\nApologies to all if this is a simple beginner's question and merely\nbetrays that I haven't been following the fandom for some years - this\nis quite true, and I'm currently trying to catch up.\n\ncheers and thanks\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-05-30T02:51:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) hello,\n\tanyone want to talk BOTNS? If so - Jolenta and her \tGuild?", "in_reply_to": "<4C01C289.1090308@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it Severian who makes this statement about \"the top of our tower\"?\nIs this the passage you're referring to?\n\n \"Even Jolenta shook her head, and I said, \"No. I've spent my life so\nnear the middle of the city that the wall was no more than a dark line on\nthe northern horizon when we looked from the glass-roofed room at the top of\nour tower.\"\" (Shadow, XXXV)\n\nBest wishes,\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nHello? Is there anybody out there?\n\nJust about a third of the way through my fifth or sixth rereading of BOTNS\nand wondering if anyone has any insights to offer on a few things I never\nnoticed before (there are always things one didn't notice before!).\n\nOn this occasion - when Severian meets up with Dr. Talos's Players at\nCtesiphon's Cross (even tho' he meant to do no such thing!) Jolenta at one\npoint remarks to him regarding the Wall of Nessus that she could see it as a\nline of black on the northern horizon 'from the glass-roofed room *at the\ntop of our tower*'.\n\nNow I've read a little more I am aware of the interpretation placed upon\nthis by Robert Borski who extrapolates that Jolenta, whose original name we\nare never told, was possibly raised amongst the Witches and may indeed be\nSeverian's lost twin sister. Whatever the truth of this, it's certainly\nclear that Jolenta has known a life where she dwelt in a tower high enough\nto view the Wall even from the midst of Nessus, and that in addition, like\nSeverian himself, she once knew a fellowship close enough that even after\nsome time, during which she has either left voluntarily or been ejected for\nsome infraction, she (like Severian, again) still refers to her former\ncomrades as 'us'; it is 'OUR tower'.\n\nHowever this does not afford proof that she was ever apprenticed to the\nWitches; whilst the Witches' Guild is the only one we are told of which is\nexclusively female, Severian is careful to tell us that most guilds (saving\nhis own, that of the Beast-Masters and that of the Witches) do admit both\nsexes. So even if Jolenta does remember a childhood in a Guild Tower within\nthe Citadel (and there's no suggestion that all Guilds have their\nheadquarters in this area, whether within ship/Towers or not, so she could\nhave been raised in a Tower outside the citadel, or even within some\nentirely different kind of structure which could none the less have\nqualified as a 'tower' and sported a glass roof of a different sort) there's\nno certainty that this was the tower of the Witches. She could have been an\nupholsterers' apprentice perhaps; or an apothecaries'.\n\nI wonder if anyone on the list has any views on the subject? Asking,\nbecause as someone who has read BOTNS several times it was really striking\nto me really to notice this phrase for the first time (I'm sure I've read it\nmany times without taking in the possible implications).\n\nApologies to all if this is a simple beginner's question and merely betrays\nthat I haven't been following the fandom for some years - this is quite\ntrue, and I'm currently trying to catch up.\n\ncheers and thanks\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C02F37F.6030104@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-05-30T23:23:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) hello,\n anyone want to talk BOTNS? If so - Jolenta and her \tGuild?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well Jack you are so right and I am so embarrassed!\n\nNothing to do to 'fess up and say that I plain didn't see that 'I' in \nthere ... back to the Work after some 15 years I have to admit and may \nbe reading in stuff that isn't there for sure.\n\nIt's the case though isn't it - every time you come back to this book, \nyou see something different. Even though, on occasion, it may be \nsomething that isn't there at all :) Possibly wishful thinking I have to \nsay - perhaps, or perhaps not, occasioned by reading Borski before going \nback to BOTNS itself.\n\nWould be interested to hear others' opinions of Borski by the way, he's \nquite the Kabalist isn't he?\n\npeace\n\nJD\n\nbtw all - now half way through book 2 as I mentioned after quite a \nnumber of years, and there are several things that stand out now. Never \nbefore quite noticed that the phrase that gets the \"old Autarch\" so \ntwitched is 'Then you can show me where the garden is'.\n\nIn context that should be Garden, nu? The Autarch only at that moment \nrealises that his greeting of a couple of pages earlier ('Welcome, \nDeath') was all too appropriate. He still knows that Severian is the \none, his later small sense of relief is only that of one who has a \ntemporary reprieve, not that of one who has been pardoned entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 30/05/10 03:51, Jack Smith wrote:\nIsn't it Severian who makes this statement about \"the top of our tower\"?\nIs this the passage you're referring to?\n\n \"Even Jolenta shook her head, and I said, \"No. I've spent my life so\nnear the middle of the city that the wall was no more than a dark line on\nthe northern horizon when we looked from the glass-roofed room at the top of\nour tower.\"\" (Shadow, XXXV)\n\nBest wishes,\nJack\n\n\nOn Sat, May 29, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Jane Delawneywrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello? Is there anybody out there?\n\nJust about a third of the way through my fifth or sixth rereading of BOTNS\nand wondering if anyone has any insights to offer on a few things I never\nnoticed before (there are always things one didn't notice before!).\n\nOn this occasion - when Severian meets up with Dr. Talos's Players at\nCtesiphon's Cross (even tho' he meant to do no such thing!) Jolenta at one\npoint remarks to him regarding the Wall of Nessus that she could see it as a\nline of black on the northern horizon 'from the glass-roofed room *at the\ntop of our tower*'.\n\nNow I've read a little more I am aware of the interpretation placed upon\nthis by Robert Borski who extrapolates that Jolenta, whose original name we\nare never told, was possibly raised amongst the Witches and may indeed be\nSeverian's lost twin sister. Whatever the truth of this, it's certainly\nclear that Jolenta has known a life where she dwelt in a tower high enough\nto view the Wall even from the midst of Nessus, and that in addition, like\nSeverian himself, she once knew a fellowship close enough that even after\nsome time, during which she has either left voluntarily or been ejected for\nsome infraction, she (like Severian, again) still refers to her former\ncomrades as 'us'; it is 'OUR tower'.\n\nHowever this does not afford proof that she was ever apprenticed to the\nWitches; whilst the Witches' Guild is the only one we are told of which is\nexclusively female, Severian is careful to tell us that most guilds (saving\nhis own, that of the Beast-Masters and that of the Witches) do admit both\nsexes. So even if Jolenta does remember a childhood in a Guild Tower within\nthe Citadel (and there's no suggestion that all Guilds have their\nheadquarters in this area, whether within ship/Towers or not, so she could\nhave been raised in a Tower outside the citadel, or even within some\nentirely different kind of structure which could none the less have\nqualified as a 'tower' and sported a glass roof of a different sort) there's\nno certainty that this was the tower of the Witches. She could have been an\nupholsterers' apprentice perhaps; or an apothecaries'.\n\nI wonder if anyone on the list has any views on the subject? Asking,\nbecause as someone who has read BOTNS several times it was really striking\nto me really to notice this phrase for the first time (I'm sure I've read it\nmany times without taking in the possible implications).\n\nApologies to all if this is a simple beginner's question and merely betrays\nthat I haven't been following the fandom for some years - this is quite\ntrue, and I'm currently trying to catch up.\n\ncheers and thanks\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }