Subject: (urth) hello, anyone want to talk BOTNS? If so - Jolenta and her Guild?

From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 01:42:33 +0000

Hello? Is there anybody out there?

Just about a third of the way through my fifth or sixth rereading of 
BOTNS and wondering if anyone has any insights to offer on a few things 
I never noticed before (there are always things one didn't notice before!).

On this occasion - when Severian meets up with Dr. Talos's Players at 
Ctesiphon's Cross (even tho' he meant to do no such thing!) Jolenta at 
one point remarks to him regarding the Wall of Nessus that she could see 
it as a line of black on the northern horizon 'from the glass-roofed 
room *at the top of our tower*'.

Now I've read a little more I am aware of the interpretation placed upon 
this by Robert Borski who extrapolates that Jolenta, whose original name 
we are never told, was possibly raised amongst the Witches and may 
indeed be Severian's lost twin sister. Whatever the truth of this, it's 
certainly clear that Jolenta has known a life where she dwelt in a tower 
high enough to view the Wall even from the midst of Nessus, and that in 
addition, like Severian himself, she once knew a fellowship close enough 
that even after some time, during which she has either left voluntarily 
or been ejected for some infraction, she (like Severian, again) still 
refers to her former comrades as 'us'; it is 'OUR tower'.

However this does not afford proof that she was ever apprenticed to the 
Witches; whilst the Witches' Guild is the only one we are told of which 
is exclusively female, Severian is careful to tell us that most guilds 
(saving his own, that of the Beast-Masters and that of the Witches) do 
admit both sexes. So even if Jolenta does remember a childhood in a 
Guild Tower within the Citadel (and there's no suggestion that all 
Guilds have their headquarters in this area, whether within ship/Towers 
or not, so she could have been raised in a Tower outside the citadel, or 
even within some entirely different kind of structure which could none 
the less have qualified as a 'tower' and sported a glass roof of a 
different sort) there's no certainty that this was the tower of the 
Witches. She could have been an upholsterers' apprentice perhaps; or an 
apothecaries'.

I wonder if anyone on the list has any views on the subject? Asking, 
because as someone who has read BOTNS several times it was really 
striking to me really to notice this phrase for the first time (I'm sure 
I've read it many times without taking in the possible implications).

Apologies to all if this is a simple beginner's question and merely 
betrays that I haven't been following the fandom for some years - this 
is quite true, and I'm currently trying to catch up.

cheers and thanks

JD

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 02:00:23 +0000

That's a real interesting idea.

.

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From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 02:51:52 +0000

Isn't it Severian who makes this statement about "the top of our tower"?
Is this the passage you're referring to?

     "Even Jolenta shook her head, and I said, "No.  I've spent my life so
near the middle of the city that the wall was no more than a dark line on
the northern horizon when we looked from the glass-roofed room at the top of
our tower.""   (Shadow, XXXV)

Best wishes,
Jack

On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>wrote:

> Just about a third of the way through my fifth or sixth rereading of BOTNS
> and wondering if anyone has any insights to offer on a few things I never
> noticed before (there are always things one didn't notice before!).
>
> Ctesiphon's Cross (even tho' he meant to do no such thing!) Jolenta at one
> point remarks to him regarding the Wall of Nessus that she could see it as a
> line of black on the northern horizon 'from the glass-roofed room *at the
> top of our tower*'.
>
> this by Robert Borski who extrapolates that Jolenta, whose original name we
> are never told, was possibly raised amongst the Witches and may indeed be
> Severian's lost twin sister. Whatever the truth of this, it's certainly
> clear that Jolenta has known a life where she dwelt in a tower high enough
> to view the Wall even from the midst of Nessus, and that in addition, like
> Severian himself, she once knew a fellowship close enough that even after
> some time, during which she has either left voluntarily or been ejected for
> some infraction, she (like Severian, again) still refers to her former
> comrades as 'us'; it is 'OUR tower'.
>
> Witches; whilst the Witches' Guild is the only one we are told of which is
> exclusively female, Severian is careful to tell us that most guilds (saving
> his own, that of the Beast-Masters and that of the Witches) do admit both
> sexes. So even if Jolenta does remember a childhood in a Guild Tower within
> the Citadel (and there's no suggestion that all Guilds have their
> headquarters in this area, whether within ship/Towers or not, so she could
> have been raised in a Tower outside the citadel, or even within some
> entirely different kind of structure which could none the less have
> qualified as a 'tower' and sported a glass roof of a different sort) there's
> no certainty that this was the tower of the Witches. She could have been an
> upholsterers' apprentice perhaps; or an apothecaries'.
>
> because as someone who has read BOTNS several times it was really striking
> to me really to notice this phrase for the first time (I'm sure I've read it
> many times without taking in the possible implications).
>
> Apologies to all if this is a simple beginner's question and merely betrays
> that I haven't been following the fandom for some years - this is quite
> true, and I'm currently trying to catch up.
>
> cheers and thanks
>
> JD

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 23:23:43 +0000

Well Jack you are so right and I am so embarrassed!

Nothing to do to 'fess up and say that I plain didn't see that 'I' in 
there ... back to the Work after some 15 years I have  to admit and may 
be reading in stuff that isn't there for sure.

It's the case though isn't it - every time you come back to this book, 
you see something different. Even though, on occasion, it may be 
something that isn't there at all :) Possibly wishful thinking I have to 
say - perhaps, or perhaps not, occasioned by reading Borski before going 
back to BOTNS itself.

Would be interested to hear others' opinions of Borski by the way, he's 
quite the Kabalist isn't he?

peace

JD

btw all - now half way through book 2 as I mentioned after quite a 
number of years, and there are several things that stand out now. Never 
before quite noticed that the phrase that gets the "old Autarch" so 
twitched is 'Then you can show me where the garden is'.

In context that should be Garden, nu? The Autarch only at that moment 
realises that his greeting of a couple of pages earlier ('Welcome, 
Death') was all too appropriate. He still knows that Severian is the 
one, his later small sense of relief is only that of one who has a 
temporary reprieve, not that of one who has been pardoned entirely.

On 30/05/10 03:51, Jack Smith wrote:
> On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Jane Delawney<jane_delawney at sky.com>wrote:
>
>    

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