{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5615", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5615, "subject": "more thoughts on Jolenta", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-06-01T19:55:30+00:00", "last": "2010-06-03T05:25:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-01T19:55:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is\n\"discovered\" by Dr. Talos, who \"casts a glamour\" on her to make her\nsuperhot.\n\nBut something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus\nstruck me. She said they were going to \"destroy\" her.\n\nAnd then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry and\nstuff going on.\n\nNow the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr.\nTalos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump,\nher face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well.\n\nBut Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and\ncompletely. He once refers to her as \"the woman you call Jolenta;\" he had\nanother name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her?\n\nCould Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the\nwhole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply\nrecognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his\nlucky stars that he found a model he could work with.\n\nJolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is\nshown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an\nandroid built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the\ncompany of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying\nhimself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed.\n\nI also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh.\nHey, wonder if they were the same person." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-01T20:25:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Jolenta is simply a poor human waitress and the wires are part of\nTalos' transformation procedure.\n\n\"The woman you call Jolenta\" is an interesting statement. It calls\nattention to the fact that she had another name. Does anyone know of any\nclues about her real name? *Lexicon Urthus *indicates that the meaning of\n\"Jolenta\" is \"the pretty one.\" The name is part of the glamour that Dr\nTalos, like a Hollywood producer, creates. Norma Jeane Baker becomes\nMarilyn Monroe; Frances Ethel Gumm becomes Judy Garland. Who was the\nwaitress who became Jolenta?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nSo we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is\n\"discovered\" by Dr. Talos, who \"casts a glamour\" on her to make her\nsuperhot.\n\nBut something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus\nstruck me. She said they were going to \"destroy\" her.\n\nAnd then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry and\nstuff going on.\n\nNow the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr.\nTalos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump,\nher face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well.\n\nBut Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and\ncompletely. He once refers to her as \"the woman you call Jolenta;\" he had\nanother name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her?\n\nCould Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the\nwhole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply\nrecognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his\nlucky stars that he found a model he could work with.\n\nJolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is\nshown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an\nandroid built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the\ncompany of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying\nhimself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed.\n\nI also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh.\nHey, wonder if they were the same person.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C063350.9040300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T10:32:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/2010 2:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nI also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an\nandroid.....ooh. Hey, wonder if they were the same person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could buy an android Katherine, perhaps \"borrowed\" from some ancient \namusement park, or perhaps recovered from the mine at Saltus." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T14:19:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Claw did not work on her. Didn't the Claw also not work on Jonas?\n\nWhy didn't the Claw work on Jolenta?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nI think Jolenta is simply a poor human waitress and the wires are part of\nTalos' transformation procedure.\n\n\"The woman you call Jolenta\" is an interesting statement. It calls\nattention to the fact that she had another name. Does anyone know of any\nclues about her real name? *Lexicon Urthus *indicates that the meaning\nof \"Jolenta\" is \"the pretty one.\" The name is part of the glamour that Dr\nTalos, like a Hollywood producer, creates. Norma Jeane Baker becomes\nMarilyn Monroe; Frances Ethel Gumm becomes Judy Garland. Who was the\nwaitress who became Jolenta?\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is\n\"discovered\" by Dr. Talos, who \"casts a glamour\" on her to make her\nsuperhot.\n\nBut something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus\nstruck me. She said they were going to \"destroy\" her.\n\nAnd then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry\nand stuff going on.\n\nNow the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr.\nTalos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump,\nher face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well.\n\nBut Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and\ncompletely. He once refers to her as \"the woman you call Jolenta;\" he had\nanother name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her?\n\nCould Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the\nwhole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply\nrecognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his\nlucky stars that he found a model he could work with.\n\nJolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is\nshown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an\nandroid built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the\ncompany of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying\nhimself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed.\n\nI also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh.\nHey, wonder if they were the same person.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<854846.9125.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T14:42:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more).\n\nJerry\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T14:59:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "<854846.9125.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Jane D. (and perhaps Jack Smith?) that Jolenta\nis a prime candidate for Severian's twin sister, Severa. \nThere is just too much veiled mystery about her to dismiss her\nas a random floozy in Severian's life. I\nfind incestual sex to be a key in identifying all Severian's\nfemale family members. Dorcas of course, but also Aunt Cyriaca\nand cousin Agia (desired if not consummated). Thecla, Valeria,\nand others remain outside possibilities as relatives.\n \nWe also have the mystery of Jolenta's real name and the veiled\nrevelation of her true hair color. Jolenta has comparable height\nto Severian's. We don't know what Jolenta was doing before being\na waitress but we do know she is the same age as Severian. Perhaps\nshe left her guild around the same time he did. We really don't\nknow all that witches do, but it is hinted that they have\nbeautification techniques and perform some sort of sexual activity\nwith their clients, both compatitble with what we know Jolenta is\nopen to.\n \nWitches are also associated with resurrection of the dead. Severian\nmeets a couple witches while carrying a dying Jolenta. They don't\nappear to recognized her or care about her, but I wonder about that\ncoincidence. Was it a random event that the Cumaean and Merryn, \ndenizens of Nessus, appear in the middle of nowhere in Severian's\npath on some unrelated necromancing errand? I suspect the witches'\ninterest might really be with Severian and his nascent abilities\nin resurrection and the possibility of utilizing them in reviving\na dying errant member of their guild.\n \n(I put Jonas' attraction to Jolenta on a par with Don Quixote and \nhis quest for the love of Dulcinea, or Borat's quest for the love\nof Pamela Anderson. Highly eccentric guys who pick an impossible, \nunattainable dream for themselves.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C06D9BD.3040302@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T22:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "<854846.9125.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd agree with Jerry here, when Jolenta has died Severian realises that \nnot only has she been (quite literally!) put under a 'glamor' to make \nher believe that she is beautiful, not only has she had hair extensions \nand the local equivalent of breast and 'booty' enhancements, but that \nthere are wires and bands of steel concealed within her flesh. She's \nkind of half-woman, half- android. No wonder the Claw had no effect.\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/06/10 15:42, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more).\n\nJerry\n\n\n\n\n \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C073A45.8000601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T05:14:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "<854846.9125.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2010 9:42 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas\nfell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's possible Sev just wasn't very motivated to save Jolenta; he \nhad already had the grudge sex with her and was done.\n\nAs for the chimera Jonas, remember the Claw heals by selectively tuning \nback the clock\non the injured tissue - this might end up in Jonas becoming dismembered \nsince he is made from leftover parts of at least two bodies, one human \nand one robot." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<656433aad00371c2234384a66a9d2930.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T05:25:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more thoughts on Jolenta", "in_reply_to": "<4C073A45.8000601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does the Claw ever repair an inanimate object?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2010 9:42 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas\nfell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's possible Sev just wasn't very motivated to save Jolenta; he\nhad already had the grudge sex with her and was done.\n\nAs for the chimera Jonas, remember the Claw heals by selectively tuning\nback the clock\non the injured tissue - this might end up in Jonas becoming dismembered\nsince he is made from leftover parts of at least two bodies, one human\nand one robot.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }