Subject: (urth) more thoughts on Jolenta

From: Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 19:55:30 +0000

So we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is
"discovered" by Dr. Talos, who "casts a glamour" on her to make her
superhot.

But something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus
struck me. She said they were going to "destroy" her.

And then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry and
stuff going on.

Now the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr.
Talos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump,
her face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well.

But Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and
completely. He once refers to her as "the woman you call Jolenta;" he had
another name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her?

Could Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the
whole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply
recognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his
lucky stars that he found a model he could work with.

Jolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is
shown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an
android built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the
company of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying
himself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed.

I also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh.
Hey, wonder if they were the same person.
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From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:25:19 +0000

I think Jolenta is simply a poor human waitress and the wires are part of
Talos' transformation procedure.

"The woman you call Jolenta" is an interesting statement.   It calls
attention to the fact that she had another name.   Does anyone know of any
clues about her real name?    *Lexicon Urthus *indicates that the meaning of
"Jolenta" is "the pretty one."  The name is part of the glamour that Dr
Talos, like a Hollywood producer, creates.  Norma Jeane Baker becomes
Marilyn Monroe;  Frances Ethel Gumm becomes Judy Garland.    Who was the
waitress who became Jolenta?

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com> wrote:

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-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:32:48 +0000

On 6/1/2010 2:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:
> I also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an
> android.....ooh. Hey, wonder if they were the same person.

I could buy an android Katherine, perhaps "borrowed" from some ancient 
amusement park, or perhaps recovered from the mine at Saltus.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

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From: Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:19:31 +0000

The Claw did not work on her. Didn't the Claw also not work on Jonas?

Why didn't the Claw work on Jolenta?

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>wrote:

> clues about her real name?    *Lexicon Urthus *indicates that the meaning
> of "Jolenta" is "the pretty one."  The name is part of the glamour that Dr
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> And then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry
>> and stuff going on.
>>
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:42:36 +0000

I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more).

Jerry

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:59:29 +0000

I agree with Jane D. (and perhaps Jack Smith?) that Jolenta
is a prime candidate for Severian's twin sister, Severa. 
There is just too much veiled mystery about her to dismiss her
as a random floozy in Severian's life.  I
find incestual sex to be a key in identifying all Severian's
female family members. Dorcas of course, but also Aunt Cyriaca
and cousin Agia (desired if not consummated). Thecla, Valeria,
and others remain outside possibilities as relatives.
 
We also have the mystery of Jolenta's real name and the veiled
revelation of her true hair color. Jolenta has comparable height
to Severian's. We don't know what Jolenta was doing before being
a waitress but we do know she is the same age as Severian. Perhaps
she left her guild around the same time he did. We really don't
know all that witches do, but it is hinted that they have
beautification techniques and perform some sort of sexual activity
with their clients, both compatitble with what we know Jolenta is
open to.
 
Witches are also associated with resurrection of the dead. Severian
meets a couple witches while carrying a dying Jolenta. They don't
appear to recognized her or care about her, but I wonder about that
coincidence. Was it a random event that the Cumaean and Merryn, 
denizens of Nessus, appear in the middle of nowhere in Severian's
path on some unrelated necromancing errand? I suspect the witches'
interest might really be with Severian and his nascent abilities
in resurrection and the possibility of utilizing them in reviving
a dying errant member of their guild.
 
(I put Jonas' attraction to Jolenta on a par with Don Quixote and 
his quest for the love of Dulcinea, or Borat's quest for the love
of Pamela Anderson. Highly eccentric guys who pick an impossible, 
unattainable dream for themselves.) 		 	   		  
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From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 22:22:53 +0000

I'd agree with Jerry here, when Jolenta has died Severian realises that 
not only has she been (quite literally!) put under a 'glamor' to make 
her believe that she is beautiful, not only has she had hair extensions 
and the local equivalent of breast and 'booty' enhancements, but that 
there are wires and bands of steel concealed within her flesh. She's 
kind of half-woman, half- android. No wonder the Claw had no effect.

jd

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:14:45 +0000

On 6/2/2010 9:42 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas
> fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more).

I think it's possible Sev just wasn't very motivated to save Jolenta; he 
had already had the grudge sex with her and was done.

As for the chimera Jonas, remember the Claw heals by selectively tuning 
back the clock
on the injured tissue - this might end up in Jonas becoming dismembered 
since he is made from leftover parts of at least two bodies, one human 
and one robot.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:25:55 +0000

Does the Claw ever repair an inanimate object?

.