# more thoughts on Jolenta *The Urth list — 9 messages, 7 voices, 01 Jun 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Cliff Judge *01 Jun 2010, 19:55* So we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is "discovered" by Dr. Talos, who "casts a glamour" on her to make her superhot. But something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus struck me. She said they were going to "destroy" her. And then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry and stuff going on. Now the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr. Talos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump, her face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well. But Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and completely. He once refers to her as "the woman you call Jolenta;" he had another name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her? Could Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the whole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply recognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his lucky stars that he found a model he could work with. Jolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is shown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an android built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the company of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying himself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed. I also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh. Hey, wonder if they were the same person. --- ### Jack Smith *01 Jun 2010, 20:25 · in reply to Cliff Judge* I think Jolenta is simply a poor human waitress and the wires are part of Talos' transformation procedure. "The woman you call Jolenta" is an interesting statement. It calls attention to the fact that she had another name. Does anyone know of any clues about her real name? *Lexicon Urthus *indicates that the meaning of "Jolenta" is "the pretty one." The name is part of the glamour that Dr Talos, like a Hollywood producer, creates. Norma Jeane Baker becomes Marilyn Monroe; Frances Ethel Gumm becomes Judy Garland. Who was the waitress who became Jolenta? > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote: > So we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is > "discovered" by Dr. Talos, who "casts a glamour" on her to make her > superhot. > > But something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus > struck me. She said they were going to "destroy" her. > > And then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry and > stuff going on. > > Now the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr. > Talos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump, > her face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well. > > But Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and > completely. He once refers to her as "the woman you call Jolenta;" he had > another name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her? > > Could Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the > whole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply > recognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his > lucky stars that he found a model he could work with. > > Jolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is > shown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an > android built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the > company of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying > himself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed. > > I also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh. > Hey, wonder if they were the same person. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *02 Jun 2010, 10:32 · in reply to Cliff Judge* > On 6/1/2010 2:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote: > I also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an > android.....ooh. Hey, wonder if they were the same person. I could buy an android Katherine, perhaps "borrowed" from some ancient amusement park, or perhaps recovered from the mine at Saltus. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### Cliff Judge *02 Jun 2010, 14:19 · in reply to Jack Smith* The Claw did not work on her. Didn't the Claw also not work on Jonas? Why didn't the Claw work on Jolenta? > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Jack Smith wrote: > I think Jolenta is simply a poor human waitress and the wires are part of > Talos' transformation procedure. > > "The woman you call Jolenta" is an interesting statement. It calls > attention to the fact that she had another name. Does anyone know of any > clues about her real name? *Lexicon Urthus *indicates that the meaning > of "Jolenta" is "the pretty one." The name is part of the glamour that Dr > Talos, like a Hollywood producer, creates. Norma Jeane Baker becomes > Marilyn Monroe; Frances Ethel Gumm becomes Judy Garland. Who was the > waitress who became Jolenta? > > > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Cliff Judge wrote: >> So we've got these plain, poor girl waitign tables at a cafe who is >> "discovered" by Dr. Talos, who "casts a glamour" on her to make her >> superhot. >> >> But something about what she said when the troupe split after the thiasus >> struck me. She said they were going to "destroy" her. >> >> And then there is the fact that her lifeless body, later, has circuitry >> and stuff going on. >> >> Now the clearest story here is that she was just a poor waitress, and Dr. >> Talos' thaumaturgy involved prostheses to make her thighs and breasts plump, >> her face and hair beautiful, and probably to give her confidence as well. >> >> But Jonas was certainly an android, and he fell for her immediately and >> completely. He once refers to her as "the woman you call Jolenta;" he had >> another name for her, but perhaps he KNEW another name for her? >> >> Could Jolenta have been an android as well? Perhaps she was an android the >> whole time, and without bringing attention to this fact, Dr. Talos simply >> recognized her as such when they first visited the cafe and thanked his >> lucky stars that he found a model he could work with. >> >> Jolenta ate food on a couple of occasions, didn't she? I believe Jonas is >> shown to both eat and sleep. I have read it theorized that Dr. Talos is an >> android built by Baldanders, and he does not eat, sleep, or require the >> company of women, and we know that Jonas was in the process of fleshifying >> himself. But still...the idea nags me with how robotic Jolenta seemed. >> >> I also read a theory that the Lady Katherine woman was an android.....ooh. >> Hey, wonder if they were the same person. >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Jerry Friedman *02 Jun 2010, 14:42 · in reply to Cliff Judge* I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more). Jerry --- ### Lee Berman *02 Jun 2010, 14:59 · follows Jerry Friedman* I agree with Jane D. (and perhaps Jack Smith?) that Jolenta is a prime candidate for Severian's twin sister, Severa. There is just too much veiled mystery about her to dismiss her as a random floozy in Severian's life. I find incestual sex to be a key in identifying all Severian's female family members. Dorcas of course, but also Aunt Cyriaca and cousin Agia (desired if not consummated). Thecla, Valeria, and others remain outside possibilities as relatives. We also have the mystery of Jolenta's real name and the veiled revelation of her true hair color. Jolenta has comparable height to Severian's. We don't know what Jolenta was doing before being a waitress but we do know she is the same age as Severian. Perhaps she left her guild around the same time he did. We really don't know all that witches do, but it is hinted that they have beautification techniques and perform some sort of sexual activity with their clients, both compatitble with what we know Jolenta is open to. Witches are also associated with resurrection of the dead. Severian meets a couple witches while carrying a dying Jolenta. They don't appear to recognized her or care about her, but I wonder about that coincidence. Was it a random event that the Cumaean and Merryn, denizens of Nessus, appear in the middle of nowhere in Severian's path on some unrelated necromancing errand? I suspect the witches' interest might really be with Severian and his nascent abilities in resurrection and the possibility of utilizing them in reviving a dying errant member of their guild. (I put Jonas' attraction to Jolenta on a par with Don Quixote and his quest for the love of Dulcinea, or Borat's quest for the love of Pamela Anderson. Highly eccentric guys who pick an impossible, unattainable dream for themselves.) --- ### Jane Delawney *02 Jun 2010, 22:22 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* I'd agree with Jerry here, when Jolenta has died Severian realises that not only has she been (quite literally!) put under a 'glamor' to make her believe that she is beautiful, not only has she had hair extensions and the local equivalent of breast and 'booty' enhancements, but that there are wires and bands of steel concealed within her flesh. She's kind of half-woman, half- android. No wonder the Claw had no effect. jd > On 02/06/10 15:42, Jerry Friedman wrote: > I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more). > > Jerry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *03 Jun 2010, 05:14 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* > On 6/2/2010 9:42 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: > I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas > fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more). I think it's possible Sev just wasn't very motivated to save Jolenta; he had already had the grudge sex with her and was done. As for the chimera Jonas, remember the Claw heals by selectively tuning back the clock on the injured tissue - this might end up in Jonas becoming dismembered since he is made from leftover parts of at least two bodies, one human and one robot. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### brunians at brunians.org *03 Jun 2010, 05:25 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Does the Claw ever repair an inanimate object? . > On 6/2/2010 9:42 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >> I assumed that the Claw didn't work on Jolenta for the same reason Jonas >> fell in love with her: she wasn't fully human (any more). > I think it's possible Sev just wasn't very motivated to save Jolenta; he > had already had the grudge sex with her and was done. > > As for the chimera Jonas, remember the Claw heals by selectively tuning > back the clock > on the injured tissue - this might end up in Jonas becoming dismembered > since he is made from leftover parts of at least two bodies, one human > and one robot. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > IEEE Student Chapter Blog at > < http://ieeetamut.org > > _______________________________________________ ---