{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5619", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5619, "subject": "traveling north", "messages": 230, "voices": 22, "first": "2010-06-02T22:49:04+00:00", "last": "2010-06-23T01:38:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4C06DFE0.3040805@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T22:49:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a quick question (I hope) it's really late at night where I am :)\n\nThere seems to be a general assumption (unless I've read it wrong, which \nwould not be the first time of course as some of you have already \nnoticed :) - both Borski and Andre-Driussi appear to support the idea) \nthat the setting of BOTNS is South America. At one point (sorry I can't \nbe more specific without looking stuff up in detail, I don't have time \nright now, I'm sure one of you will know the place) it's stated outright \nby one of these writers that Nessus is 'almost certainly Buenos Aires'.\n\nThis would mean that as Severian & co. journey to Thrax & beyond, they \nare moving northward in the southern hemisphere.\n\nHowever, when Severian takes directions from the pampas herdsman for his \njourney (directions which will lead him straight into the Stone Town of \ncourse) the herdsman instructs him to travel northwest ... 'with the sun \nover your right shoulder in the morning and in your left eye in the \nevening' or very similar phrasing.\n\nPerfect directions for a journey north-westwards in the *northern* \nhemisphere.\n\nWith the current planetary orbit and polar configuration, surely it is \nsimply not possible to travel northward in the southern hemisphere with \nthe sun *behind* you, which is evidently what Severian is doing.\n\nWhat is going on here? Many apologies if this is a topic which has been \ndone to death in the past btw. My initial reaction is that the usage of \n'north' and 'south' in Severian's world does not entirely coincide with \nours, that there has been a magnetic reversal event or similar, and that \nfor sure Severian is travelling northwards in *his* southern hemisphere \n... but that this is not the same as our southern hemisphere. Perhaps \nthe Commonwealth is North America or Eurasia after all; and Ascia, South \nAmerica or Africa.\n\nAs I've mentioned on list previously I'm currently part way through my \nfirst read of this book for fifteen years. Would be most interested to \nhear if there is any further information out there regarding this little \npuzzle (for instance, I have so far taken less notice than I might have \ndone of any mention of the positions of stars from Severian's point of \nview - though there is apparently a constellation called the Cross, this \ncould as easily refer to our Swan (Cygnus) as to the Southern Cross. Not \nto mention that star positions relative to Urth may not be quite the \nsame as they are to our Earth.\n\ngot to go, goodnight and thanks for your patience if you have read this.\n\njd." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-02T23:07:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C06DFE0.3040805@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good.\n\nI think probably Wolfe made a mistake.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a quick question (I hope) it's really late at night where I am :)\n\nThere seems to be a general assumption (unless I've read it wrong, which\nwould not be the first time of course as some of you have already\nnoticed :) - both Borski and Andre-Driussi appear to support the idea)\nthat the setting of BOTNS is South America. At one point (sorry I can't\nbe more specific without looking stuff up in detail, I don't have time\nright now, I'm sure one of you will know the place) it's stated outright\nby one of these writers that Nessus is 'almost certainly Buenos Aires'.\n\nThis would mean that as Severian & co. journey to Thrax & beyond, they\nare moving northward in the southern hemisphere.\n\nHowever, when Severian takes directions from the pampas herdsman for his\njourney (directions which will lead him straight into the Stone Town of\ncourse) the herdsman instructs him to travel northwest ... 'with the sun\nover your right shoulder in the morning and in your left eye in the\nevening' or very similar phrasing.\n\nPerfect directions for a journey north-westwards in the *northern*\nhemisphere.\n\nWith the current planetary orbit and polar configuration, surely it is\nsimply not possible to travel northward in the southern hemisphere with\nthe sun *behind* you, which is evidently what Severian is doing.\n\nWhat is going on here? Many apologies if this is a topic which has been\ndone to death in the past btw. My initial reaction is that the usage of\n'north' and 'south' in Severian's world does not entirely coincide with\nours, that there has been a magnetic reversal event or similar, and that\nfor sure Severian is travelling northwards in *his* southern hemisphere\n... but that this is not the same as our southern hemisphere. Perhaps\nthe Commonwealth is North America or Eurasia after all; and Ascia, South\nAmerica or Africa.\n\nAs I've mentioned on list previously I'm currently part way through my\nfirst read of this book for fifteen years. Would be most interested to\nhear if there is any further information out there regarding this little\npuzzle (for instance, I have so far taken less notice than I might have\ndone of any mention of the positions of stars from Severian's point of\nview - though there is apparently a constellation called the Cross, this\ncould as easily refer to our Swan (Cygnus) as to the Southern Cross. Not\nto mention that star positions relative to Urth may not be quite the\nsame as they are to our Earth.\n\ngot to go, goodnight and thanks for your patience if you have read this.\n\njd.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C06E4C7.7020706@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-02T23:09:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C06DFE0.3040805@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and a quick follow up (told you it was late at night, thinking things \nthrough ...)\n\nOf course it isn't possible to travel toward the equator in *either* \nhemisphere with the sun at your back. So something very complicated \nappears to have happened to the earth's orbit, the position of the \ncontinents, or both.\n\nAlso awaiting comments from those who will probably tell me that the \ndirections given do not in fact exclude the possibility that the sun was \nin Sev's face during the rest of the day. I'm sure there are other \nindications that Urth's north and south are not quite as we know them - \nbut no time to go there now.\n\ngot to go!\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/06/10 23:49, Jane Delawney wrote:\nJust a quick question (I hope) it's really late at night where I am :)\n\nThere seems to be a general assumption (unless I've read it wrong, \nwhich would not be the first time of course as some of you have \nalready noticed :) - both Borski and Andre-Driussi appear to support \nthe idea) that the setting of BOTNS is South America. At one point \n(sorry I can't be more specific without looking stuff up in detail, I \ndon't have time right now, I'm sure one of you will know the place) \nit's stated outright by one of these writers that Nessus is 'almost \ncertainly Buenos Aires'.\n\nThis would mean that as Severian & co. journey to Thrax & beyond, they \nare moving northward in the southern hemisphere.\n\nHowever, when Severian takes directions from the pampas herdsman for \nhis journey (directions which will lead him straight into the Stone \nTown of course) the herdsman instructs him to travel northwest ... \n'with the sun over your right shoulder in the morning and in your left \neye in the evening' or very similar phrasing.\n\nPerfect directions for a journey north-westwards in the *northern* \nhemisphere.\n\nWith the current planetary orbit and polar configuration, surely it is \nsimply not possible to travel northward in the southern hemisphere \nwith the sun *behind* you, which is evidently what Severian is doing.\n\nWhat is going on here? Many apologies if this is a topic which has \nbeen done to death in the past btw. My initial reaction is that the \nusage of 'north' and 'south' in Severian's world does not entirely \ncoincide with ours, that there has been a magnetic reversal event or \nsimilar, and that for sure Severian is travelling northwards in *his* \nsouthern hemisphere ... but that this is not the same as our southern \nhemisphere. Perhaps the Commonwealth is North America or Eurasia after \nall; and Ascia, South America or Africa.\n\nAs I've mentioned on list previously I'm currently part way through \nmy first read of this book for fifteen years. Would be most interested \nto hear if there is any further information out there regarding this \nlittle puzzle (for instance, I have so far taken less notice than I \nmight have done of any mention of the positions of stars from \nSeverian's point of view - though there is apparently a constellation \ncalled the Cross, this could as easily refer to our Swan (Cygnus) as \nto the Southern Cross. Not to mention that star positions relative to \nUrth may not be quite the same as they are to our Earth.\n\ngot to go, goodnight and thanks for your patience if you have read this.\n\njd.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<476916.92692.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T00:34:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C06E4C7.7020706@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.\n\nThe line is, \"Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right shoulder by morning and later in the left eye.\"\n\nOn the equinoxes, the sun rises due east everywhere in the world (well, not at the poles), so the sun is over your right shoulder at dawn if you're facing northwest. On the December solstice, the sun rises at its farthest south of due east; on the June solstice, at its farthest north. In the South Temperate and Antarctic Zones, the sun is always in the north at noon, but in the South Tropical Zone, it's in the south at noon around the December solstice, their summer solstice. Since Severian's sun is dim, he could be in the tropics even where we think of the climate as cooler than tropical.\n\nIt's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the south is cold and the north is hot. I don't see a mistake. The sun could easily be more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the morning and more or less west (in his left eye) later.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wed, June 2, 2010 5:09:59 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nand a quick follow up (told you it was late at night, thinking things through ...)\n\nOf course it isn't possible to travel toward the equator in *either* hemisphere with the sun at your back. So something very complicated appears to have happened to the earth's orbit, the position of the continents, or both.\n\nAlso awaiting comments from those who will probably tell me that the directions given do not in fact exclude the possibility that the sun was in Sev's face during the rest of the day. I'm sure there are other indications that Urth's north and south are not quite as we know them - but no time to go there now.\n\ngot to go!\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/06/10 23:49, Jane Delawney wrote:\nJust a quick question (I hope) it's really late at night where I am :)\n\nThere seems to be a general assumption (unless I've read it wrong, which would not be the first time of course as some of you have already noticed :) - both Borski and Andre-Driussi appear to support the idea) that the setting of BOTNS is South America. At one point (sorry I can't be more specific without looking stuff up in detail, I don't have time right now, I'm sure one of you will know the place) it's stated outright by one of these writers that Nessus is 'almost certainly Buenos Aires'.\n\nThis would mean that as Severian & co. journey to Thrax & beyond, they are moving northward in the southern hemisphere.\n\nHowever, when Severian takes directions from the pampas herdsman for his journey (directions which will lead him straight into the Stone Town of course) the herdsman instructs him to travel northwest ... 'with the sun over your right shoulder in the morning and in your left eye in the evening' or very similar phrasing.\n\nPerfect directions for a journey north-westwards in the *northern* hemisphere.\n\nWith the current planetary orbit and polar configuration, surely it is simply not possible to travel northward in the southern hemisphere with the sun *behind* you, which is evidently what Severian is doing.\n\nWhat is going on here? Many apologies if this is a topic which has been done to death in the past btw. My initial reaction is that the usage of 'north' and 'south' in Severian's world does not entirely coincide with ours, that there has been a magnetic reversal event or similar, and that for sure Severian is travelling northwards in *his* southern hemisphere ... but that this is not the same as our southern hemisphere. Perhaps the Commonwealth is North America or Eurasia after all; and Ascia, South America or Africa.\n\nAs I've mentioned on list previously I'm currently part way through my first read of this book for fifteen years. Would be most interested to hear if there is any further information out there regarding this little puzzle (for instance, I have so far taken less notice than I might have done of any mention of the positions of stars from Severian's point of view - though there is apparently a constellation called the Cross, this could as easily refer to our Swan (Cygnus) as to the Southern Cross. Not to mention that star positions relative to Urth may not be quite the same as they are to our Earth.\n\ngot to go, goodnight and thanks for your patience if you have read this.\n\njd.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T00:42:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<476916.92692.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not crystal clear in the text, but Wolfe has explicitly\nstated in some interviews that Urth is not meant to be Earth\nbut rather a version of Earth in a previous universal iteration.\nOne clue in the text is that the word Urth, from the 3 giantess \nnorns of Norse Mythology, refers to the Past (while Verthandi is \nthe Present and Skuld is the Future). Thus it can be explained \nwhy Severian lives on a continent very similar to our South \nAmerica but with some notable differences.(still, I do think we \ncan spot Buenos Aires, Iguazu Falls, the Andes, the Amazon and \nLake Titicaca referenced)\n \nFWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually \nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly \nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus, \nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about \nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its \nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which \nplagued our pagan ancestors. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1819266493-1275525854-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1711055393-@bda214.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "carrlaw at swbell.net", "address": "carrlaw at swbell.net" }, "date": "2010-06-03T00:43:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa! Well said\nSent via BlackBerry by AT&T\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Lee Berman \nDate: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:42:25 \nTo: \nSubject: (urth) traveling north\n\n\n\nIt is not crystal clear in the text, but Wolfe has explicitly\nstated in some interviews that Urth is not meant to be Earth\nbut rather a version of Earth in a previous universal iteration.\nOne clue in the text is that the word Urth, from the 3 giantess \nnorns of Norse Mythology, refers to the Past (while Verthandi is \nthe Present and Skuld is the Future). Thus it can be explained \nwhy Severian lives on a continent very similar to our South \nAmerica but with some notable differences.(still, I do think we \ncan spot Buenos Aires, Iguazu Falls, the Andes, the Amazon and \nLake Titicaca referenced)\n \nFWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually \nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly \nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus, \nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about \nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its \nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which \nplagued our pagan ancestors. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eugene Zaretskiy", "address": "eugene.zar at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T01:00:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me to\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T01:04:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<1819266493-1275525854-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1711055393-@bda214.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A-yup.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whoa! Well said\nSent via BlackBerry by AT&T\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Lee Berman \nDate: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:42:25\nTo: \nSubject: (urth) traveling north\n\n\n\nIt is not crystal clear in the text, but Wolfe has explicitly\nstated in some interviews that Urth is not meant to be Earth\nbut rather a version of Earth in a previous universal iteration.\nOne clue in the text is that the word Urth, from the 3 giantess\nnorns of Norse Mythology, refers to the Past (while Verthandi is\nthe Present and Skuld is the Future). Thus it can be explained\nwhy Severian lives on a continent very similar to our South\nAmerica but with some notable differences.(still, I do think we\ncan spot Buenos Aires, Iguazu Falls, the Andes, the Amazon and\nLake Titicaca referenced)\n\nFWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with\nHotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001f01cb02df$1aab7d40$96cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-03T05:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<476916.92692.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.\n\nThe line is, \"Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right\nshoulder by morning and later in the left eye.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the south\nis cold and the north is hot. I don't see a mistake. The sun could easily\nbe more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the morning and more or\nless west (in his left eye) later.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm so glad you explained that so I didn't have to. \n\nI will just add this bit from Wolfe in the Larry McCaffery interview done in\nNovember of 1988:\n\n\"Incidentally, I also got into trouble with some reviewers over my\npresentation of the Ascians, who were my equivalent of the Turks. If you\nread the book carefully, it's clear that the action is taking place in South\nAmerica and that the invading Ascians are actually North Americans.\"\n\nhttp://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003701cb02e2$6dd485e0$96cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-03T06:02:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<476916.92692.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And for those who don't like extra-textual answers, here is the textual\nproof Wolfe referenced. It comes from chapter XXV in CITADEL. The old\nautarch is speaking to Severian of the Ascians:\n\n\"Half what you said of them was incorrect. They do not come from the hot\ncountries of the north, but from the continent that lies across the\nequator.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T09:40:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already happened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me to\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<07e417fccdd43f81f01ae6443657010a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T09:53:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me to\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars\nwith Hotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T10:56:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<07e417fccdd43f81f01ae6443657010a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Among the things I think the story is meant to show\n\n1) If Jesus Christ didn't exist, we'd have to invent a roughly similar\nfigure,\n\n2) If that roughly similar figure was a flawed human being, the resulting\nreligion would be considerable worse (Wolfe cheats here--Severian isn't a\ngreat sage or moral teacher--the Christ-figure of his world's religion was\ngenerally not a nice man), and\n\n3) Because all faiths are salvific insofar as they participate in truth,\neven the mock-Christianity of the New Sun world leads to genuine moments of\ngrace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 5:53 AM, wrote:\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me to\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars\nwith Hotmail." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T11:06:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds plausible.\n\nWolfe told me that Severian is part of the Mystical Body of Christ.\n\nDoes this fit in with that?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Among the things I think the story is meant to show\n\n1) If Jesus Christ didn't exist, we'd have to invent a roughly similar\nfigure,\n\n2) If that roughly similar figure was a flawed human being, the resulting\nreligion would be considerable worse (Wolfe cheats here--Severian isn't a\ngreat sage or moral teacher--the Christ-figure of his world's religion was\ngenerally not a nice man), and\n\n3) Because all faiths are salvific insofar as they participate in truth,\neven the mock-Christianity of the New Sun world leads to genuine moments\nof\ngrace.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 5:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T11:44:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mystical Body of Christ, in Catholic Doctrine, is the Church. The\nteaching can be found in Ephesians:\n\n\"15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who\nis the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and\nfitly joined together, by what every joint supplies, according to the\noperation in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body, unto the\nedifying of itself in charity.\"\n\nBut what is the Church? The Church Militant, the worldly administrative\nbody headquartered in Rome doesn't exist in Severian's world, so that's a\npoor guess as to Wolfe's meaning. The Catholic Encyclopedia, however, gives\nthat meaning as the third definition of the term *ecclesia. *This is the\nfirst:\n\n\"It is employed to denote all who, from the beginning of the world, have\nbelieved in the one true God, and have been made His children by grace.\"\n\nClearly, this is Wolfe's intention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:06 AM, wrote:\nSounds plausible.\n\nWolfe told me that Severian is part of the Mystical Body of Christ.\n\nDoes this fit in with that?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Among the things I think the story is meant to show\n\n1) If Jesus Christ didn't exist, we'd have to invent a roughly similar\nfigure,\n\n2) If that roughly similar figure was a flawed human being, the\nresulting\nreligion would be considerable worse (Wolfe cheats here--Severian isn't a\ngreat sage or moral teacher--the Christ-figure of his world's religion\nwas\ngenerally not a nice man), and\n\n3) Because all faiths are salvific insofar as they participate in truth,\neven the mock-Christianity of the New Sun world leads to genuine moments\nof\ngrace.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 5:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman ", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T11:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's my take on it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Mystical Body of Christ, in Catholic Doctrine, is the Church. The\nteaching can be found in Ephesians:\n\n\"15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him\nwho\nis the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and\nfitly joined together, by what every joint supplies, according to the\noperation in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body, unto\nthe\nedifying of itself in charity.\"\n\nBut what is the Church? The Church Militant, the worldly administrative\nbody headquartered in Rome doesn't exist in Severian's world, so that's a\npoor guess as to Wolfe's meaning. The Catholic Encyclopedia, however,\ngives\nthat meaning as the third definition of the term *ecclesia. *This is the\nfirst:\n\n\"It is employed to denote all who, from the beginning of the world, have\nbelieved in the one true God, and have been made His children by grace.\"\n\nClearly, this is Wolfe's intention.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:06 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sounds plausible.\n\nWolfe told me that Severian is part of the Mystical Body of Christ.\n\nDoes this fit in with that?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Among the things I think the story is meant to show\n\n1) If Jesus Christ didn't exist, we'd have to invent a roughly\nsimilar\nfigure,\n\n2) If that roughly similar figure was a flawed human being, the\nresulting\nreligion would be considerable worse (Wolfe cheats here--Severian\nisn't a\ngreat sage or moral teacher--the Christ-figure of his world's religion\nwas\ngenerally not a nice man), and\n\n3) Because all faiths are salvific insofar as they participate in\ntruth,\neven the mock-Christianity of the New Sun world leads to genuine\nmoments\nof\ngrace.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 5:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T14:57:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<07e417fccdd43f81f01ae6443657010a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the Jesus \"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too further in the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the Second Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this kind of stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\n \n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this: \n\n \n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much \"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\" (not to mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)? Is that what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know, but Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming) to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me to\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars\nwith Hotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:06:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:\nSeverian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the Jesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too further in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the Second\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this kind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\" (not to\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is that\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming) to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me to\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48de6c2703ee12fc6c29c83baa351a8a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:20:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is indeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think of\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of course)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including some\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the Jesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the Second\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\" (not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming) to\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:35:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<48de6c2703ee12fc6c29c83baa351a8a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). There are only about 14 million Mormons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, wrote:\nI think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is indeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think of\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of course)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including some\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the Jesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the Second\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\" (not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming) to\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:37:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is indeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think of\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of course)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including some\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the Jesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the Second\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\" (not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming) to\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1249dbfdc5bb392b75ba9680851ae748.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:44:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably isn't.\n\nI make stuff up quite frequently.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is\nindeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think\nof\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of\ncourse)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including some\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the\nJesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the\nSecond\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\"\n(not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming)\nto\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to\nme\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<98a970267558266bea86ba0ff666365b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.\n\nThere would be something.\n\nWhy do you think there would be nothing?\n\nThere wasn't nothing before.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is\nindeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think\nof\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of\ncourse)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including\nsome\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the\nJesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the\nSecond\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about\nthis\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\"\n(not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming)\nto\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to\nme\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is\napparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:50:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<98a970267558266bea86ba0ff666365b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think there'd be nothing. Just that 3.5 billion people in\ndifferent faiths would make the world look really different.\n\nI for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before\nsacred fires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM, wrote:\nAnd there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.\n\nThere would be something.\n\nWhy do you think there would be nothing?\n\nThere wasn't nothing before.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. ?It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is\nindeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think\nof\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of\ncourse)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including\nsome\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the\nJesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the\nSecond\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about\nthis\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\"\n(not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming)\nto\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to\nme\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is\napparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T16:52:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think _we_ wouldn't be doing any such thing because we wouldn't have\nbeen born. A world without the Mosaic religions would be so different\nthat the human landscape would be utterly different, if it still\nexisted at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:50 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nI don't think there'd be nothing. “Just that 3.5 billion people in\ndifferent faiths would make the world look really different.\n\nI for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before\nsacred fires.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.\n\nThere would be something.\n\nWhy do you think there would be nothing”\n\nThere wasn't nothing before.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. ?It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is\nindeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think\nof\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of\ncourse)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including\nsome\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the\nJesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the\nSecond\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about\nthis\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\"\n(not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming)\nto\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that already\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to\nme\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is\napparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:06:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:06:37 -0400\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThat's fair. I won't get into that discussion though, since I'm a non-believer and there's no point in doing so. My interest was in to what extent is that reflected on the Urth's books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it wasn't.\n\n \n\n\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:09:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:37:16 -0400\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They would have kept their previous beliefs or something else would have come along in the meanwhile. It's not like their ancestors were atheists.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:14:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:52:53 -0700\nFrom: danldo at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI think _we_ wouldn't be doing any such thing because we wouldn't have\nbeen born. A world without the Mosaic religions would be so different\nthat the human landscape would be utterly different, if it still\nexisted at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't see exactely why Humanity wouldn't still be here. The Human landscape, as you put it, would certainly be different, though. \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:17:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct--I find the question of what else would have come along to be\ninteresting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:37:16 -0400\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They would have kept their previous beliefs or something else would have\ncome along in the meanwhile. It's not like their ancestors were atheists.\n\n________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3230e22c26ede04eb7be4736d3c6ebc9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:20:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So for me things would be the same, is what you are saying.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there'd be nothing. Just that 3.5 billion people in\ndifferent faiths would make the world look really different.\n\nI for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before\nsacred fires.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.\n\nThere would be something.\n\nWhy do you think there would be nothing?\n\nThere wasn't nothing before.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. ?It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of\nsouthern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is\nindeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I\nthink\nof\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of\ncourse)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including\nsome\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in\nits\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the\nJesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the\nSecond\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about\nthis\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\"\n(not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion\naround)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second\ncomming)\nto\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that\nalready\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less\nspiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed\nto\nme\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very\nspecifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as\nsavior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is\napparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to,\nin\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7bc8262d7dc0be33c51ffa686fbc1a94.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:22:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so.\n\nI think that many of the same patters would exist, and that we, or people\nenough like us as no matter (cf Borges) would be doing about the same\nstuff we are doing, more or less.\n\nAnd in fact, I think that we *are* doing any and all such things in\nneighboring Worlds. I know I am.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think _we_ wouldn't be doing any such thing because we wouldn't have\nbeen born. A world without the Mosaic religions would be so different\nthat the human landscape would be utterly different, if it still\nexisted at all.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:50 AM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think there'd be nothing. “Just that 3.5 billion people in\ndifferent faiths would make the world look really different.\n\nI for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before\nsacred fires.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.\n\nThere would be something.\n\nWhy do you think there would be nothing”\n\nThere wasn't nothing before.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. ?It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are\napproximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2\nbillion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan\nof the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations\nof\nEurope were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.\nChristianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily\nadaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of\nsouthern\nArizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly\nhenolatric (eg\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).\n\nChristianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is\nindeed\nthe World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I\nthink\nof\nas a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of\ncourse)\nas the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including\nsome\nMormons as something other.\n\nIf you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in\nits\nseveral branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.\n\nAs a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the\nJesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in\nthe past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the\nSecond\nComing or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about\nthis\nkind\nof stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\"\n(not\nto\nmention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion\naround)??Is\nthat\nwhat Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,\nbut?Severian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second\ncomming)\nto\nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nSeverian is the Conciliator.\n\nOr am I missing something?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I agree. The Conciliator was the \"jesus\" of Urth. And that\nalready\nhappened in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400\nFrom: eugene.zar at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less\nspiritually\nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly\nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,\nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading\nabout\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in\nits\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed\nto\nme\nto\nbe very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very\nspecifically\ncomes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as\nsavior.\nSeverian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is\napparent\nearly in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to,\nin\npart, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking\nleads:\nsalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple\ncalendars\nwith Hotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:24:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also nuncupatory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct--I find the question of what else would have come along to be\ninteresting.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Pedro Pereira \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:37:16 -0400\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They would have kept their previous beliefs or something else would have\ncome along in the meanwhile. It's not like their ancestors were\natheists.\n\n________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:29:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you eat a thesaurus or something?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:24 AM, wrote:\nAlso nuncupatory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correct--I find the question of what else would have come along to be\ninteresting.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Pedro Pereira \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:37:16 -0400\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "They would have kept their previous beliefs or something else would have\ncome along in the meanwhile. It's not like their ancestors were\natheists.\n\n________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-03T17:45:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Urp*\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you eat a thesaurus or something?\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:24 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also nuncupatory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Correct--I find the question of what else would have come along to be\ninteresting.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Pedro Pereira\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:37:16 -0400\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nI'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious\nfree\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "They would have kept their previous beliefs or something else would\nhave\ncome along in the meanwhile. It's not like their ancestors were\natheists.\n\n________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C080BAA.9010607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T20:08:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 9:57 AM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nSeverian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the Jesus\n\"equivalent\" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too\nfurther in the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is\nthe Second Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much\nabout this kind of stuff, I'm not even religious.\n\nI don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:\n\n\"The Urth we are reading about\nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its\nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which\nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nDo the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much\n\"enlightened\" now than it was at the time of our \"pagan ancestors\" (not\nto mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)? Is\nthat what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know, but\nSeverian/Conciliator rings like \"Jesus\" (probably second comming) to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In terms of Wolfe's prespective, yes; slavery is the exception rather \nthan the rule, and democracy has alleviated naked tyranny for most of \nthe world. In the time of Urth, things have gone back toward the \nslavery-tyranny end of things.\n\nSome of the \"Urth is in a previous universe\" is double-talk to cover for \nthe overlooking of the rainbow covenant." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C080D71.1050005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T20:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 11:37 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nI'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; Islam claims it began as Mohammed's \nreform of the corrupted Judaism of his time and place." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C080DC3.4050901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-03T20:17:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C080D71.1050005@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. \n\nAlthough who exactly is meant by \"we\"---since the Heiros are knee-deep in the manufacturing process? Do they express some universal desire for such a figure?\n\nAnd who determines the requirements for such a project? I suppose the schedule wouldn't matter if you have all of time..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 06:56:05 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nAmong the things I think the story is meant to show\n\n1) If Jesus Christ didn't exist, we'd have to invent a roughly similar\nfigure,\n\n2) If that roughly similar figure was a flawed human being, the resulting\nreligion would be considerable worse (Wolfe cheats here--Severian isn't a\ngreat sage or moral teacher--the Christ-figure of his world's religion was\ngenerally not a nice man), and\n\n3) Because all faiths are salvific insofar as they participate in truth,\neven the mock-Christianity of the New Sun world leads to genuine moments of\ngrace." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T20:23:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C080D71.1050005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we to believe that Mohammed derived veneration of Jesus Christ and His\nmother from \"corrupted Judaism\" as well? Mohammed's visitation by the\nArchangel Gabriel--that too is from Jewish tradition, primarily, and not\nChristian?\n\nI suppose, if one's definition of \"corrupted Judaism\" is broad enough to\nencompass \"Christianity.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/3/2010 11:37 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; Islam claims it began as Mohammed's\nreform of the corrupted Judaism of his time and place.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<810694.75476.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T22:21:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C080BAA.9010607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some of the \"Urth is in a previous universe\" is double-talk to cover for the overlooking of the rainbow covenant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I kind of suspect that, though I hadn't connected it with the covenant, since I'm in denial about the existence of /TUotNS/. The bit in /Shadow/ about the artifacts that have survived so many centuries of futurity, and photographing the era's few extant buildings, doesn't seem compatible with the \"previous universe\" business. (AWB, so I'm sorry if I got the wording wrong.) Just a joke?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C083E44.3020005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T23:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<810694.75476.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 5:21 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some of the \"Urth is in a previous universe\" is double-talk to cover for the overlooking of the rainbow covenant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I kind of suspect that, though I hadn't connected it with the covenant, since I'm in denial about the existence of /TUotNS/. The bit in /Shadow/ about the artifacts that have survived so many centuries of futurity, and photographing the era's few extant buildings, doesn't seem compatible with the \"previous universe\" business. (AWB, so I'm sorry if I got the wording wrong.) Just a joke?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of it is kind of jokey, like referring Urth as being much older \nthan our current Earth - of course it's older, duh! The book is set many \nmillenia past our era, whether this cycle or not." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13760e59190cf40b9c651ab10b7ccb24.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T01:47:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C080D71.1050005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Islam is Arian Christianity, basically.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 11:37 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; Islam claims it began as Mohammed's\nreform of the corrupted Judaism of his time and place.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T01:49:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<810694.75476.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 3, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some of the \"Urth is in a previous universe\" is double-talk to cover for the overlooking of the rainbow covenant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I kind of suspect that, though I hadn't connected it with the covenant, since I'm in denial about the existence of /TUotNS/. The bit in /Shadow/ about the artifacts that have survived so many centuries of futurity, and photographing the era's few extant buildings, doesn't seem compatible with the \"previous universe\" business. (AWB, so I'm sorry if I got the wording wrong.) Just a joke?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The scene with the plane in the Garden Of Time does it for me.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T01:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<13760e59190cf40b9c651ab10b7ccb24.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian elements too,\nand Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:47 PM, wrote:\nIslam is Arian Christianity, basically.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/3/2010 11:37 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero\nMuslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born. It'd\nbe an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free\nagents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; Islam claims it began as Mohammed's\nreform of the corrupted Judaism of his time and place.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08603E.6070909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T02:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 3:23 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nAre we to believe that Mohammed derived veneration of Jesus Christ and\nHis mother from \"corrupted Judaism\" as well? Mohammed's visitation by\nthe Archangel Gabriel--that too is from Jewish tradition, primarily, and\nnot Christian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gabriel appears in the OT as a messenger from G-d to the prophet Daniel. \nIt makes sense for him to appear to Mohammed, also a prophet.\n\nObviously Jesus is a Christian influence but demoting him to prophet \nstatus is not indicative of a great deal of Christian influnce. Without \nconsideration of Christianity at all, you'd still have an Islam formed \nin response to the proliferation of intercessors and corrupt priesthoods." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08638F.4020608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T02:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 8:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian elements\ntoo, and Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still have a problem calling anything non-trinitarian Christianity. \nIt would be like calling the Nation of Islam the same as Islam, despite \nit maintianing the divinity of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T02:42:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C08638F.4020608@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/3/2010 8:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian elements\ntoo, and Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still have a problem calling anything non-trinitarian Christianity. It\nwould be like calling the Nation of Islam the same as Islam, despite it\nmaintianing the divinity of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I completely agree--however, my agreement is coming from within orthodox\nChristianity, so it's far from academically disinterested! Many students of\nreligion solve the problem of who is and who isn't a Christian by simply\nconsidering everyone who claims the name to be one. I understand why, but\nto stretch terms so far makes them nearly meaningless, in my opinion.\n\nIn response to an earlier post on Arianism, I have always thought that the\nJehovah's Witnesses were the closest modern equivalent. The creators and\nsubcreators of Mormonism always call to mind, for me, the demiurges, aeons\nand emanations of Gnosticism.\n\nIslam is a more complicated case, I think. It's very likely that Muhammad\nconsidered himself a sort of Christian. I have always thought that the\nIconoclastic movement, and later the Swiss Reformers, partook somewhat of\nthe Islamic ethos. Certainly Calvin has more in common with Muhammad than\nwith most of the Fathers..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEach of us bears his own Hell.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. VI, l. 743" } ] }, { "message_id": "<380869.45950.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T03:45:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Thornton \nOn Jun 3, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:>\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some of the \"Urth is in a previous universe\" is double-talk to cover for the overlooking of the rainbow\ncovenant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I kind of suspect that, though I hadn't connected it with the covenant, since I'm in denial about the existence\nof /TUotNS/. The bit in /Shadow/ about the artifacts that have survived so many centuries of futurity, and\nphotographing the era's few extant buildings, doesn't seem compatible with the \"previous universe\" business.\n(AWB, so I'm sorry if I got the wording wrong.) Just a joke?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The scene with the plane in the Garden Of Time does it for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another striking one is that \"Verthandi\" meant both \"now\" and \"a gift\" in some past language.\n\nBut I see two possibilities in addition to Mr. Wolfe's starting with the idea that Urth was in our future and retconning it into a past universe. One is the apparently Brunian possibility that different universes and iterations will have overwhelming similarities for reasons we don't understand (unless Josh does). In that case many or all of the universes have the names \"Robert\" and \"Marie\" at some point (\"Marie\" coming from \"Miriam\" even though there was no Mary Mother of Jesus). Even the saints' names could be names of exemplary people who were equivalent to the saints of our world.\n\nThis would also explain why Severian learned that a constitutional representative democracy like ours was the highest form of government--his world once had equivalents to our governments of that type, even if none of the history we know about was anything like that. (Which would throw an interesting light on the argument about Jesus' effect, if his universe passed through our stage and returned to widespread tyranny and slavery, as ours could.)\n\nThe other is that the fictional Wolfe, the translator, says in the appendices that he has used the \"closest twentieth-century equivalents\" for \"yet undiscovered concepts\"; he, not Severian, put an athame into Agia's hands. He uses Latin for a language Severian considers obsolete and presumably changes the images in \"a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.\" So along those lines, maybe the names Robert, Marie, Isangoma, Kimleesoong, and Paris are only his translations of names from the distant past that were unfamiliar to Severian, and maybe the translator even changed the description of the plane so we could recognize it. Maybe the double meaning of \"Verthandi\" was different. Maybe he put in all the clues for South America, for instance by using Quechua to translate a language that Severian says is indigenous, because he knew somehow that the Commonwealth was in South America.\n\nOr maybe this is taking the translator conceit too seriously.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T04:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<380869.45950.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n\nBut I see two possibilities in addition to Mr. Wolfe's starting with the\nidea that Urth was in our future and retconning it into a past universe.\n One is the apparently Brunian possibility that different universes and\niterations will have overwhelming similarities for reasons we don't\nunderstand (unless Josh does). In that case many or all of the universes\nhave the names \"Robert\" and \"Marie\" at some point (\"Marie\" coming from\n\"Miriam\" even though there was no Mary Mother of Jesus). Even the saints'\nnames could be names of exemplary people who were equivalent to the saints\nof our world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had always thought that Robert and Marie was a reference to some other\nwork that I just wasn't getting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would also explain why Severian learned that a constitutional\nrepresentative democracy like ours was the highest form of government--his\nworld once had equivalents to our governments of that type, even if none of\nthe history we know about was anything like that. (Which would throw an\ninteresting light on the argument about Jesus' effect, if his universe\npassed through our stage and returned to widespread tyranny and slavery, as\nours could.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that Severian really learns that a constitutional\nrepresentative democracy is the highest form of government. After he\nrecites the list of governmental types, in order of sophistication, the\nMaster then asks him : of what nature is his own relationship to the\nIncreate? That seems to suggest, to me, that Malrubius (as mouthpiece for\nWolfe?) thinks monarchism to be really the highest form of government.\n\nPlease bear in mind also that in Christian theology, Jesus did not arrive to\nset human beings free from temporal slavery, suffering, and tyranny, but\nfrom spiritual slavery, suffering, and tyranny. The idea that Jesus should\nhave had a ripple-effect of liberation from governmental tyranny, which can\nnever be rolled back, is more closely aligned with the Social Gospel and its\nantecedents than with most early Christian ideas about government. Ss Paul\n& Augustine, and up through Luther, put this point most cogently." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other is that the fictional Wolfe, the translator, says in the\nappendices that he has used the \"closest twentieth-century equivalents\" for\n\"yet undiscovered concepts\"; he, not Severian, put an athame into Agia's\nhands. He uses Latin for a language Severian considers obsolete and\npresumably changes the images in \"a serpent in the last letter but one, and\na sword in the last.\" So along those lines, maybe the names Robert, Marie,\nIsangoma, Kimleesoong, and Paris are only his translations of names from the\ndistant past that were unfamiliar to Severian, and maybe the translator even\nchanged the description of the plane so we could recognize it. Maybe the\ndouble meaning of \"Verthandi\" was different. Maybe he put in all the clues\nfor South America, for instance by using Quechua to translate a language\nthat Severian says is indigenous, because he knew somehow that the\nCommonwealth was in South America.\n\nOr maybe this is taking the translator conceit too seriously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it sort of like Tolkien using Gothic/Celtic names for the Brandybucks,\nand Anglo-Saxon as Rohirric, in *The Lord of the Rings*? Obviously, that\nbook takes place in a world where there is no Europe (and no Goths to invade\nit), and no England. But these cognates are meant to suggest relationships\nbetween those names and the surrounding culture which are similar to the way\nthose relationships function in our milieu. I think." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nEach of us bears his own Hell.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. VI, l. 743" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1728052bb28101aa412ca9dd4030a42a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T06:09:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C08638F.4020608@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever.\n\nNation of Islam is regularly called Islam.\n\nAnd they are considered Muslims by Muslims, albeit somewhat heretical.\n\nHeresy in Islam is not the same as heresy in Christianity.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 8:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian elements\ntoo, and Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still have a problem calling anything non-trinitarian Christianity.\nIt would be like calling the Nation of Islam the same as Islam, despite\nit maintianing the divinity of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2c8c8ca918e3bf24e377e43bf8482669.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T06:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouanquerrie.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/3/2010 8:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian elements\ntoo, and Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still have a problem calling anything non-trinitarian Christianity. It\nwould be like calling the Nation of Islam the same as Islam, despite it\nmaintianing the divinity of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I completely agree--however, my agreement is coming from within orthodox\nChristianity, so it's far from academically disinterested! Many students\nof\nreligion solve the problem of who is and who isn't a Christian by simply\nconsidering everyone who claims the name to be one. I understand why, but\nto stretch terms so far makes them nearly meaningless, in my opinion.\n\nIn response to an earlier post on Arianism, I have always thought that the\nJehovah's Witnesses were the closest modern equivalent. The creators and\nsubcreators of Mormonism always call to mind, for me, the demiurges, aeons\nand emanations of Gnosticism.\n\nIslam is a more complicated case, I think. It's very likely that Muhammad\nconsidered himself a sort of Christian. I have always thought that the\nIconoclastic movement, and later the Swiss Reformers, partook somewhat of\nthe Islamic ethos. Certainly Calvin has more in common with Muhammad than\nwith most of the Fathers...\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nEach of us bears his own Hell.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. VI, l. 743\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08AF94.50501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T07:47:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<1728052bb28101aa412ca9dd4030a42a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 1:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhatever.\n\nNation of Islam is regularly called Islam.\n\nAnd they are considered Muslims by Muslims, albeit somewhat heretical.\n\nHeresy in Islam is not the same as heresy in Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The equation of a created being (like a human) with Allah is called \nshirk, which is just about the most severe form of \"heresy\" Islam has." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T09:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C08AF94.50501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And what is your point?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 1:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whatever.\n\nNation of Islam is regularly called Islam.\n\nAnd they are considered Muslims by Muslims, albeit somewhat heretical.\n\nHeresy in Islam is not the same as heresy in Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The equation of a created being (like a human) with Allah is called\nshirk, which is just about the most severe form of \"heresy\" Islam has.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<616EA3A2-E633-4794-9A1E-3874E1242853@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T13:10:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<380869.45950.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 3, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nThe other is that the fictional Wolfe, the translator, says in the appendices that he has used the \"closest twentieth-century equivalents\" for \"yet undiscovered concepts\"; he, not Severian, put an athame into Agia's hands. He uses Latin for a language Severian considers obsolete and presumably changes the images in \"a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.\" So along those lines, maybe the names Robert, Marie, Isangoma, Kimleesoong, and Paris are only his translations of names from the distant past that were unfamiliar to Severian, and maybe the translator even changed the description of the plane so we could recognize it. Maybe the double meaning of \"Verthandi\" was different. Maybe he put in all the clues for South America, for instance by using Quechua to translate a language that Severian says is indigenous, because he knew somehow that the Commonwealth was in South America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Along this line of reasoning lies _A Deepness In The Sky_, with horrible spider-monsters whose tales are told as if they were hobbits.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T13:42:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<2c8c8ca918e3bf24e377e43bf8482669.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Touatte." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 11:10 PM, wrote:\nOuanquerrie.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/3/2010 8:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian elements\ntoo, and Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I still have a problem calling anything non-trinitarian Christianity. It\nwould be like calling the Nation of Islam the same as Islam, despite it\nmaintianing the divinity of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I completely agree--however, my agreement is coming from within orthodox\nChristianity, so it's far from academically disinterested! Many students\nof\nreligion solve the problem of who is and who isn't a Christian by simply\nconsidering everyone who claims the name to be one. I understand why,\nbut\nto stretch terms so far makes them nearly meaningless, in my opinion.\n\nIn response to an earlier post on Arianism, I have always thought that\nthe\nJehovah's Witnesses were the closest modern equivalent. The creators and\nsubcreators of Mormonism always call to mind, for me, the demiurges,\naeons\nand emanations of Gnosticism.\n\nIslam is a more complicated case, I think. It's very likely that\nMuhammad\nconsidered himself a sort of Christian. I have always thought that the\nIconoclastic movement, and later the Swiss Reformers, partook somewhat of\nthe Islamic ethos. Certainly Calvin has more in common with Muhammad\nthan\nwith most of the Fathers...\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nEach of us bears his own Hell.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. VI, l. 743\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T13:52:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Touatte.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 11:10 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ouanquerrie.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/3/2010 8:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I agree with this. Actually, Mormonism has significant Arian\nelements\ntoo, and Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I still have a problem calling anything non-trinitarian Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It\nwould be like calling the Nation of Islam the same as Islam, despite\nit\nmaintianing the divinity of its founder, Wallace Fard Muhammad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I completely agree--however, my agreement is coming from within\northodox\nChristianity, so it's far from academically disinterested! Many\nstudents\nof\nreligion solve the problem of who is and who isn't a Christian by\nsimply\nconsidering everyone who claims the name to be one. I understand why,\nbut\nto stretch terms so far makes them nearly meaningless, in my opinion.\n\nIn response to an earlier post on Arianism, I have always thought that\nthe\nJehovah's Witnesses were the closest modern equivalent. The creators\nand\nsubcreators of Mormonism always call to mind, for me, the demiurges,\naeons\nand emanations of Gnosticism.\n\nIslam is a more complicated case, I think. It's very likely that\nMuhammad\nconsidered himself a sort of Christian. I have always thought that\nthe\nIconoclastic movement, and later the Swiss Reformers, partook somewhat\nof\nthe Islamic ethos. Certainly Calvin has more in common with Muhammad\nthan\nwith most of the Fathers...\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nEach of us bears his own Hell.\nVirgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. VI, l. 743\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<230974.97402.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T22:29:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Matthew Weber \nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I see two possibilities in addition to Mr. Wolfe's starting with the idea that Urth was in our future and retconning it into a past universe. One is the apparently Brunian possibility that different universes and iterations will have overwhelming similarities for reasons we don't understand (unless Josh does). In that case many or all of the universes have the names \"Robert\" and \"Marie\" at some point (\"Marie\" coming from \"Miriam\" even though there was no Mary Mother of Jesus). Even the saints' names could be names of exemplary people who were equivalent to the saints of our world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had always thought that Robert and Marie was a reference to some other work that I just wasn't\ngetting. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI thought that too, and I think many people have. Has anyone ever identified it? Someone said Robert Borski had, but I'd like to see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would also explain why Severian learned that a constitutional representative democracy like ours was the highest form of government--his world once had equivalents to our governments of that type, even if none of the history we know about was anything like that. (Which would throw an interesting light on the argument about Jesus' effect, if his universe passed through our stage and returned to widespread tyranny and slavery, as ours could.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure that Severian really learns that a constitutional representative democracy is the highest\nform of government. After he recites the list of governmental types, in order of sophistication, the\nMaster then asks him : of what nature is his own relationship to the Increate? That seems to\nsuggest, to me, that Malrubius (as mouthpiece for Wolfe?) thinks monarchism to be really the\nhighest form of government." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, maybe I should have said Severian had been taught that our kind of government was the highest. I find it a bit surprising that such a belief had existed on Urth and that the aquastor of Master Malrubius would need to correct it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please bear in mind also that in Christian theology, Jesus did not arrive to set human beings free\nfrom temporal slavery, suffering, and tyranny, but from spiritual slavery, suffering, and tyranny. \nThe idea that Jesus should have had a ripple-effect of liberation from governmental tyranny, which\ncan never be rolled back, is more closely aligned with the Social Gospel and its antecedents than\nwith most early Christian ideas about government. Ss Paul & Augustine, and up through Luther,\nput this point most cogently." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other is that the fictional Wolfe, the translator, says in the appendices that he has used the \"closest twentieth-century equivalents\" for \"yet undiscovered concepts\"; he, not Severian, put an athame into Agia's hands. He uses Latin for a language Severian considers obsolete and presumably changes the images in \"a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.\" So along those lines, maybe the names Robert, Marie, Isangoma, Kimleesoong, and Paris are only his translations of names from the distant past that were unfamiliar to Severian, and maybe the translator even changed the description of the plane so we could recognize it. Maybe the double meaning of \"Verthandi\" was different. Maybe he put in all the clues for South America, for instance by using Quechua to translate a language that Severian says is indigenous, because he knew somehow that the Commonwealth was in South America." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or maybe this is taking the translator conceit too seriously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isn't it sort of like Tolkien using Gothic/Celtic names for the Brandybucks, and Anglo-Saxon as\nRohirric, in The Lord of the Rings? Obviously, that book takes place in a world where there is no\nEurope (and no Goths to invade it), and no England. But these cognates are meant to suggest\nrelationships between those names and the surrounding culture which are similar to the way those\nrelationships function in our milieu. I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, and I should have thought of the parallel to /The Lord of the Rings/. The question I'm asking is how far it goes. The names Robert, Marie etc. Other names? The pun on \"present\"? How about what Severian says Thecla said Father Inire said, \"light is so weightless that we have given its name to that condition\"?\n\nMaybe Mr. Wolfe's definitive statement on cycles of the universe is from the James Jordan interview: \"I was toying with those ideas, I think, rather than trying to\nmake sense of them.\"\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<230974.97402.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A pedantic point:\n\nTolkien most assuredly meant for Middle-Earth to be set in the distant\npast of our own world.\n\nLinguistically, however, the commonalities were indeed meant to be fictive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/10, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Matthew Weber " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Jerry Friedman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I see two possibilities in addition to Mr. Wolfe's starting with the\nidea that Urth was in our future and retconning it into a past universe.\nOne is the apparently Brunian possibility that different universes and\niterations will have overwhelming similarities for reasons we don't\nunderstand (unless Josh does). In that case many or all of the universes\nhave the names \"Robert\" and \"Marie\" at some point (\"Marie\" coming from\n\"Miriam\" even though there was no Mary Mother of Jesus). Even the\nsaints' names could be names of exemplary people who were equivalent to\nthe saints of our world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had always thought that Robert and Marie was a reference to some other\nwork that I just wasn't\ngetting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought that too, and I think many people have. Has anyone ever\nidentified it? Someone said Robert Borski had, but I'd like to see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This would also explain why Severian learned that a constitutional\nrepresentative democracy like ours was the highest form of government--his\nworld once had equivalents to our governments of that type, even if none\nof the history we know about was anything like that. (Which would throw\nan interesting light on the argument about Jesus' effect, if his universe\npassed through our stage and returned to widespread tyranny and slavery,\nas ours could.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure that Severian really learns that a constitutional\nrepresentative democracy is the highest\nform of government. After he recites the list of governmental types, in\norder of sophistication, the\nMaster then asks him : of what nature is his own relationship to the\nIncreate? That seems to\nsuggest, to me, that Malrubius (as mouthpiece for Wolfe?) thinks\nmonarchism to be really the\nhighest form of government." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, maybe I should have said Severian had been taught that our kind of\ngovernment was the highest. I find it a bit surprising that such a belief\nhad existed on Urth and that the aquastor of Master Malrubius would need to\ncorrect it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please bear in mind also that in Christian theology, Jesus did not arrive\nto set human beings free\nfrom temporal slavery, suffering, and tyranny, but from spiritual slavery,\nsuffering, and tyranny.\nThe idea that Jesus should have had a ripple-effect of liberation from\ngovernmental tyranny, which\ncan never be rolled back, is more closely aligned with the Social Gospel\nand its antecedents than\nwith most early Christian ideas about government. Ss Paul & Augustine,\nand up through Luther,\nput this point most cogently." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other is that the fictional Wolfe, the translator, says in the\nappendices that he has used the \"closest twentieth-century equivalents\"\nfor \"yet undiscovered concepts\"; he, not Severian, put an athame into\nAgia's hands. He uses Latin for a language Severian considers obsolete\nand presumably changes the images in \"a serpent in the last letter but\none, and a sword in the last.\" So along those lines, maybe the names\nRobert, Marie, Isangoma, Kimleesoong, and Paris are only his translations\nof names from the distant past that were unfamiliar to Severian, and maybe\nthe translator even changed the description of the plane so we could\nrecognize it. Maybe the double meaning of \"Verthandi\" was different.\nMaybe he put in all the clues for South America, for instance by using\nQuechua to translate a language that Severian says is indigenous, because\nhe knew somehow that the Commonwealth was in South America." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or maybe this is taking the translator conceit too seriously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't it sort of like Tolkien using Gothic/Celtic names for the\nBrandybucks, and Anglo-Saxon as\nRohirric, in The Lord of the Rings? Obviously, that book takes place in a\nworld where there is no\nEurope (and no Goths to invade it), and no England. But these cognates are\nmeant to suggest\nrelationships between those names and the surrounding culture which are\nsimilar to the way those\nrelationships function in our milieu. I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, and I should have thought of the parallel\nto /The Lord of the Rings/. The question I'm asking is how far it goes.\nThe names Robert, Marie etc. Other names? The pun on \"present\"? How\nabout what Severian says Thecla said Father Inire said, \"light is so\nweightless that we have given its name to that condition\"?\n\nMaybe Mr. Wolfe's definitive statement on cycles of the universe is from the\nJames Jordan interview: \"I was toying with those ideas, I think, rather than\ntrying to\nmake sense of them.\"\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C098D23.4010800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:32:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:21 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nA pedantic point:\n\nTolkien most assuredly meant for Middle-Earth to be set in the distant\npast of our own world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant \ntime and CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its \nown it became increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. \nThough with events like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any \ndiscrepancies can be explained away." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tolkien was learned.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9f3e0c5fb796795c9ef0082f087f9373.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C098D23.4010800@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tolkien had similar ideas about deep history as Wolfe and I do.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:21 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A pedantic point:\n\nTolkien most assuredly meant for Middle-Earth to be set in the distant\npast of our own world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant\ntime and CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its\nown it became increasingly allegorical and less literally our world.\nThough with events like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any\ndiscrepancies can be explained away.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09BDBE.3060803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T03:00:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<230974.97402.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had always thought that Robert and Marie was a reference\nto some other work that I just wasn't getting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought that too, and I think many people have.\nHas anyone ever identified it?\nSomeone said Robert Borski had, but I'd like to see it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if this is who Borski fingered, but I had presumed that \nthey were the Scottish missionaries Robert and Mary Moffat. Robert's \nvision was to plant a \"Garden for God\" in Africa. The problem is that \nthe Moffats served in the late 18th-early 19th century, and of course \nSev sees a plane just before encountering the hut. Of course he could \nhave been moving back in time.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T03:15:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C09BDBE.3060803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are waiting for the plane.\n\nAnd they talk of Paris.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >> I had always thought that Robert and Marie was a reference\n >>to some other work that I just wasn't getting.\n\n > I thought that too, and I think many people have.\n >Has anyone ever identified it?\n >Someone said Robert Borski had, but I'd like to see it.\n\nI don't know if this is who Borski fingered, but I had presumed that\nthey were the Scottish missionaries Robert and Mary Moffat. Robert's\nvision was to plant a \"Garden for God\" in Africa. The problem is that\nthe Moffats served in the late 18th-early 19th century, and of course\nSev sees a plane just before encountering the hut. Of course he could\nhave been moving back in time.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9ce8279be3085502d57b5157a8d23e86.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T03:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C09BDBE.3060803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather, they knew about the plane. They talked about how they could catch it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >> I had always thought that Robert and Marie was a reference\n >>to some other work that I just wasn't getting.\n\n > I thought that too, and I think many people have.\n >Has anyone ever identified it?\n >Someone said Robert Borski had, but I'd like to see it.\n\nI don't know if this is who Borski fingered, but I had presumed that\nthey were the Scottish missionaries Robert and Mary Moffat. Robert's\nvision was to plant a \"Garden for God\" in Africa. The problem is that\nthe Moffats served in the late 18th-early 19th century, and of course\nSev sees a plane just before encountering the hut. Of course he could\nhave been moving back in time.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T16:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C098D23.4010800@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIt's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant time\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its own it\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though with\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies can be\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T17:17:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called \"allegorical.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant\ntime\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its own\nit\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though with\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies can\nbe\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<454980.67983.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T18:22:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So recent discussions have me thinking about a book that's a couple of years old new, but on topic: _The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura Miller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the religious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory. Gets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not at all \"believe.\"\n\nBut it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even in the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here that allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and actually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis apparently wanted Narnia to be?\n2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and moralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even Catholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)\n\nI know my views aren't shared by everyone on the list, but I'm skeptical of the idea that Wolfe is always or even primarily interested in writing his own beliefs into his books in any overall consistent way. He seems more to be experimenting with ideas rather than working out a consistent theology, as it were.\n\nBut even when he's doing something obvious, like the Severian-as-proto-Christian angle, I find myself fascinated although I'm not particularly Christian (or particularly anything). I've had other friends, particularly the a-religious type, who can't get past the feeling that he's preaching to them to the \"what-if\" attitude in which I read him.\n\nBut I was curious about any variety of views we have on the list." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T18:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<454980.67983.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm an atheist. Sometimes I do feel here and there a certain morality aspect rising from the books at certain points, but I can't say I ever felt preached to by Wolfe. Plus, I view the character as someone different from me and not necessarily sharing my world views so I can live with that.\n\n \n\nCuriously I have more problems with Wolfe's interviews than his books. He is viewing the world from the point of view of a religious person (nothing wrong with that and oviously expected) but sometimes his opinions, specially moral ones, feel to \"colored\" for my tastes, if you know what I mean. Sometimes I even feel somewhat offended, like when he attributes the \"good morals\" of the world to the rise of christianity (respect for others, charity, etc) and kind of goes against Islam, giving as example an experience from a friend of his who was at some point in some islamic country, etc. Maybe some of you remember this interview. I felt that it was such a naive and simplistic view of things, and beying an admirer of an obviously very smart person I felt disappointed.\n\n \n\nHis work, however, never made me feel as an \"outsider\" (lol), I was always abble to connect with the characters, the story, etc, without feeling that I was reading a book whose main objective was to preach to me through some dissimulated means. I'm also abble to feel the sense of wonder at \"revelation\", like Silk when he finds the Outsider and so on, even though I'm not religious myself. \n\n \n\nI fell in love with Wolfe's prose when I was in my early teens (12 maybe), I had no idea who he was and I had this book called \"shadow of the torturer\" that I borrowed from an uncle of mine. Even though it was a translation it felt special, unique, and quite different from what I had read before. And then there was the beautifully imagined world, which has no paralel. Even after I discovered that Wolfe's religious beliefs/views played a big part in his work, I never really felt betrayed or dissapointed. I guess it actually made the whole thing more interesting, more \"real\".\n\n\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 11:22:16 -0700\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\n\n\n\n\nSo recent discussions have me thinking about a book that's a couple of years old new, but on topic: _The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura Miller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the religious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory. Gets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not at all \"believe.\"\n\nBut it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even in the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here that allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and actually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis apparently wanted Narnia to be?\n2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and moralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even Catholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)\n\nI know my views aren't shared by everyone on the list, but I'm skeptical of the idea that Wolfe is always or even primarily interested in writing his own beliefs into his books in any overall consistent way. He seems more to be experimenting with ideas rather than working out a consistent theology, as it were.\n\nBut even when he's doing something obvious, like the Severian-as-proto-Christian angle, I find myself fascinated although I'm not particularly Christian (or particularly anything). I've had other friends, particularly the a-religious type, who can't get past the feeling that he's preaching to them to the \"what-if\" attitude in which I read him.\n\nBut I was curious about any variety of views we have on the list.\n\n\n\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 12:17:31 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nAnd Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called \"allegorical.\"\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIt's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant time\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its own it\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though with\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies can be\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T20:53:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to reflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very rarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we hear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes that\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes of\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in my\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions, who\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far preachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed similar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just soft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be the\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and images\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views towards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nI'm an atheist. Sometimes I do feel here and there a certain morality\naspect rising from the books at certain points, but I can't say I ever felt\npreached to by Wolfe. Plus, I view the character as someone different from\nme and not necessarily sharing my world views so I can live with that.\n\nCuriously I have more problems with Wolfe's interviews than his books. He\nis viewing the world from the point of view of a religious person (nothing\nwrong with that and oviously expected) but sometimes his opinions, specially\nmoral ones, feel to \"colored\" for my tastes, if you know what I mean.\nSometimes I even feel somewhat offended, like when he attributes the \"good\nmorals\" of the world to the rise of christianity (respect for others,\ncharity, etc) and kind of goes against Islam, giving as example an\nexperience from a friend of his who was at some point in some islamic\ncountry, etc. Maybe some of you remember this interview. I felt that it was\nsuch a naive and simplistic view of things, and beying an admirer of an\nobviously very smart person I felt disappointed.\n\nHis work, however, never made me feel as an \"outsider\" (lol), I was always\nabble to connect with the characters, the story, etc, without feeling that I\nwas reading a book whose main objective was to preach to me through some\ndissimulated means. I'm also abble to feel the sense of wonder at\n\"revelation\", like Silk when he finds the Outsider and so on, even though\nI'm not religious myself.\n\nI fell in love with Wolfe's prose when I was in my early teens (12 maybe),\nI had no idea who he was and I had this book called \"shadow of the torturer\"\nthat I borrowed from an uncle of mine. Even though it was a translation it\nfelt special, unique, and quite different from what I had read before. And\nthen there was the beautifully imagined world, which has no paralel. Even\nafter I discovered that Wolfe's religious beliefs/views played a big part in\nhis work, I never really felt betrayed or dissapointed. I guess it actually\nmade the whole thing more interesting, more \"real\".\n------------------------------\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 11:22:16 -0700\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\n\n So recent discussions have me thinking about a book that's a couple of\nyears old new, but on topic: _The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in\nNarnia_ by Laura Miller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about\nthe religious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory.\nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not at all\n\"believe.\"\n\nBut it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even in\nthe loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here that\nallegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and actually\ninstructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis apparently\nwanted Narnia to be?\n2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and\nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even\nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)\n\nI know my views aren't shared by everyone on the list, but I'm skeptical of\nthe idea that Wolfe is always or even primarily interested in writing his\nown beliefs into his books in any overall consistent way. He seems more to\nbe experimenting with ideas rather than working out a consistent theology,\nas it were.\n\nBut even when he's doing something obvious, like the\nSeverian-as-proto-Christian angle, I find myself fascinated although I'm not\nparticularly Christian (or particularly anything). I've had other friends,\nparticularly the a-religious type, who can't get past the feeling that he's\npreaching to them to the \"what-if\" attitude in which I read him.\n\nBut I was curious about any variety of views we have on the list.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0AD757.3020106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T23:01:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 11:59 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant time\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its own it\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though with\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies can be\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My point remains that around this time (1936 or so) he placed the \nsetting we know as Middle Earth in the literal past, slightly \noverlapping the historic era, with bloodlines continuing to this day \nallowing retrogression from our time to that. Things accumulated and by \nthe 70s he was reported saying it was in an imaginary world rather than \nan historical one.\n\nISTR he similarly entertained some biological justification for elves' \nlongevity in letters with a friend or colleague then ultimately decided \nit wasn't necessary." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0AD943.7070304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T23:09:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AD757.3020106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 6:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/5/2010 11:59 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant\ntime\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its\nown it\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though\nwith\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies\ncan be\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point remains that around this time (1936 or so) he placed the\nsetting we know as Middle Earth in the literal past, slightly\noverlapping the historic era, with bloodlines continuing to this day\nallowing retrogression from our time to that. Things accumulated and by\nthe 70s he was reported saying it was in an imaginary world rather than\nan historical one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I cut that loose a bit early. I just now reviewed a BBC interview from \n71 and he says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "T: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of Earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean.\n\nG: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era.\n\nT: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://web.archive.org/web/20040911093705/www.geocities.com/misctolkien/TolkieninterviewBBC1971.txt" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0AD9EC.6060705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T23:12:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AD757.3020106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 6:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/5/2010 11:59 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant\ntime\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its\nown it\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though\nwith\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies\ncan be\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point remains that around this time (1936 or so) he placed the\nsetting we know as Middle Earth in the literal past, slightly\noverlapping the historic era, with bloodlines continuing to this day\nallowing retrogression from our time to that. Things accumulated and by\nthe 70s he was reported saying it was in an imaginary world rather than\nan historical one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I cut that loose a bit early. I just now reviewed a BBC interview from \n71 and he says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "T: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake\nof thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of Earth or is another\nplanet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned\nword for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean.\n\n\nG: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this\nworld we live in but at a different era.\n\nT: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://web.archive.org/web/20040911093705/www.geocities.com/misctolkien/TolkieninterviewBBC1971.txt\n\n\nSo it's somehow this earth, but without even fictional continuity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0AE4A4.2020205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-05T23:58:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference is largely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I encountered Narnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third grade. \n\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great Atheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane from the beginning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to reflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very rarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we hear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes that\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes of\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in my\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions, who\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far preachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed similar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just soft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be the\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and images\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views towards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T00:01:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AE4A4.2020205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do people feel similarly betrayed by Doestoevsky?\n\nAgain, I find it bizarre. I can't imagine thinking to myself \"How dare\nAuthor X have different views than me!\" I can imagine thinking \"Well, I\ndon't choose to spend time on this,\" but not a sense of betrayal per se." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 7:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference is\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I encountered\nNarnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third grade.\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane\nfrom the beginning.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to\nreflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very rarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we hear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes that\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes of\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in my\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions, who\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far preachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed\nsimilar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just soft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be the\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and\nimages\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views towards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<83cb66843810e4560d021ec1bba42cad.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T00:34:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He'd whine loudly.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called \"allegorical.\"\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's my understanding that was how it started with he drawing distant\ntime\nand CS Lewis drawing distant space, but as it took on a life of its\nown\nit\nbecame increasingly allegorical and less literally our world. Though\nwith\nevents like the Bending of the Roads, pretty much any discrepancies\ncan\nbe\nexplained away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No; Middle-earth (or, more properly, Arda) goes back to long before\nhis famous \"bargain\" with Lewis. He began writing what would become\n_The Silmarillion_ during WWI.\n\nThe product of the \"bargain\" was never completed.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8bcd673ef83c0c5d8dc5e0e10c7a78ce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T00:47:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AE4A4.2020205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All atheists are insane.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference is\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I\nencountered Narnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third\ngrade.\n\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane\nfrom the beginning.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to\nreflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very rarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we hear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes that\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes of\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in my\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions, who\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far\npreachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed\nsimilar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just soft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be the\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and\nimages\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views towards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T00:48:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Atheists don't believe in God, so there's a gap.\n\nThey normally try to fit themselves into the gap.\n\nSo of course they get to order the World.\n\nAnd the World stubbornly insists upon remaining as it is.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do people feel similarly betrayed by Doestoevsky?\n\nAgain, I find it bizarre. I can't imagine thinking to myself \"How dare\nAuthor X have different views than me!\" I can imagine thinking \"Well, I\ndon't choose to spend time on this,\" but not a sense of betrayal per se.\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 7:58 PM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference\nis\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I\nencountered\nNarnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third grade.\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane\nfrom the beginning.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to\nreflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very rarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we hear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes\nthat\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes\nof\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in my\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions,\nwho\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far\npreachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed\nsimilar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just soft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be\nthe\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and\nimages\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views towards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0AF273.7070303@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T00:57:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<476916.92692.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First of all many many apologies if I have started a hare and then not \nbeen around to follow it up. it is a classic troll tactic and I am not a \ntroll (although stating you are not is also a classic tactic of course, \nright now I know I can't win). Instead color me guilty of not thinking \n(ie. that I was on 3 12 hour shifts immediately following my last post) \nbefore posting. Will try very hard not to do this again.\n\nSecond: many many thanks to all those who have responded. I see that my \n15 years out of the fandom have resulted in some serious lacunae in my \nknowledge; I had not previously been aware of Gene Wolfe's statements on \nthe issue of north/south on Urth and also of the identity of the Ascians.\n\n[As an aside though - I wonder very much now why Wolfe initially \nidentifies the Ascians as his 'equivalent of the Turks'. Turks of what \nera? I'm guessing ancient, warlike, sweeping across the plains Turks, \nnot the inhabitants of the modern land of Turkey who are not well known \nfor Ascian-like behavior.\n\nThe real puzzle for me in this identification however is their evident \ntotalitarian mentality, how this relates to the Turks of any era I am \nnot sure.]\n\nAnyway - I finally remembered the other place (well actually one of the \nothers, but this is the most immediate one) where my vague recollection \nof a sense of north/south 'wrongness' came from.\n\nThe passage is right at the end of *Shadow*; on the last but one page of \nmy Arrow Paperbacks copy (p.300 of the 1981 printing). The speaker is \nJonas.\n\n\"In the old times, the Lords of this world feared no one but their own \npeople, and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on \na hill to the *north* of the city. It was not called Nessus then, \nbecause the river was unpoisoned.\n\n\"Many of the people were angry at the building of that *citadel*, \nholding it to be their right to slay their lords without hindrance if \nthey so desired. But others went out in the ships that ply between the \nstars, returning with treasure and knowledge.\"\n\n[All emphases mine of course. Also of course, the Citadel where Severian \nwas raised is in the far *south* of 'contemporary' Nessus.]\n\nAnd so on. Of course at this point Jonas diverges into a tale which \nsounds like a fairy-story or legend, and it's entirely possible that the \nwhole statement is such a tale, that the reference to the 'citadel in \nthe north' is storytelling, and not related to the (subcreated) \n'reality' of Urth. But Jonas is a survivor of ancient times and at base \na machine, not a human; this is in addition 'the only tale (he) knows - \nor nearly so'. Do robots tell fairy stories?\n\nIn Wolfe, they probably do :) However this entire passage gives me pause.\n\nIf I remember / note anything else, I'll present it if the whole list \nhasn't gotten tired of the subject; but any comment as helpful as those \nalready received would be very very welcome.\n\nkind regards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 03/06/10 01:34, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.\n\nThe line is, \"Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right shoulder by morning and later in the left eye.\"\n\nOn the equinoxes, the sun rises due east everywhere in the world (well, not at the poles), so the sun is over your right shoulder at dawn if you're facing northwest. On the December solstice, the sun rises at its farthest south of due east; on the June solstice, at its farthest north. In the South Temperate and Antarctic Zones, the sun is always in the north at noon, but in the South Tropical Zone, it's in the south at noon around the December solstice, their summer solstice. Since Severian's sun is dim, he could be in the tropics even where we think of the climate as cooler than tropical.\n\nIt's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the south is cold and the north is hot. I don't see a mistake. The sun could easily be more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the morning and more or less west (in his left eye) later.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T01:00:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AF273.7070303@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Commonwealth is politically similar - identical, really - to the\nByzantine empire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First of all many many apologies if I have started a hare and then not\nbeen around to follow it up. it is a classic troll tactic and I am not a\ntroll (although stating you are not is also a classic tactic of course,\nright now I know I can't win). Instead color me guilty of not thinking\n(ie. that I was on 3 12 hour shifts immediately following my last post)\nbefore posting. Will try very hard not to do this again.\n\nSecond: many many thanks to all those who have responded. I see that my\n15 years out of the fandom have resulted in some serious lacunae in my\nknowledge; I had not previously been aware of Gene Wolfe's statements on\nthe issue of north/south on Urth and also of the identity of the Ascians.\n\n[As an aside though - I wonder very much now why Wolfe initially\nidentifies the Ascians as his 'equivalent of the Turks'. Turks of what\nera? I'm guessing ancient, warlike, sweeping across the plains Turks,\nnot the inhabitants of the modern land of Turkey who are not well known\nfor Ascian-like behavior.\n\nThe real puzzle for me in this identification however is their evident\ntotalitarian mentality, how this relates to the Turks of any era I am\nnot sure.]\n\nAnyway - I finally remembered the other place (well actually one of the\nothers, but this is the most immediate one) where my vague recollection\nof a sense of north/south 'wrongness' came from.\n\nThe passage is right at the end of *Shadow*; on the last but one page of\nmy Arrow Paperbacks copy (p.300 of the 1981 printing). The speaker is\nJonas.\n\n\"In the old times, the Lords of this world feared no one but their own\npeople, and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on\na hill to the *north* of the city. It was not called Nessus then,\nbecause the river was unpoisoned.\n\n\"Many of the people were angry at the building of that *citadel*,\nholding it to be their right to slay their lords without hindrance if\nthey so desired. But others went out in the ships that ply between the\nstars, returning with treasure and knowledge.\"\n\n[All emphases mine of course. Also of course, the Citadel where Severian\nwas raised is in the far *south* of 'contemporary' Nessus.]\n\nAnd so on. Of course at this point Jonas diverges into a tale which\nsounds like a fairy-story or legend, and it's entirely possible that the\nwhole statement is such a tale, that the reference to the 'citadel in\nthe north' is storytelling, and not related to the (subcreated)\n'reality' of Urth. But Jonas is a survivor of ancient times and at base\na machine, not a human; this is in addition 'the only tale (he) knows -\nor nearly so'. Do robots tell fairy stories?\n\nIn Wolfe, they probably do :) However this entire passage gives me pause.\n\nIf I remember / note anything else, I'll present it if the whole list\nhasn't gotten tired of the subject; but any comment as helpful as those\nalready received would be very very welcome.\n\nkind regards\n\nJD\n\n\nOn 03/06/10 01:34, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.\n\nThe line is, \"Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right\nshoulder by morning and later in the left eye.\"\n\nOn the equinoxes, the sun rises due east everywhere in the world (well,\nnot at the poles), so the sun is over your right shoulder at dawn if\nyou're facing northwest. On the December solstice, the sun rises at its\nfarthest south of due east; on the June solstice, at its farthest north.\n In the South Temperate and Antarctic Zones, the sun is always in the\nnorth at noon, but in the South Tropical Zone, it's in the south at noon\naround the December solstice, their summer solstice. Since Severian's\nsun is dim, he could be in the tropics even where we think of the\nclimate as cooler than tropical.\n\nIt's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the\nsouth is cold and the north is hot. I don't see a mistake. The sun\ncould easily be more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the\nmorning and more or less west (in his left eye) later.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T01:24:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AF273.7070303@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Wolfe says the Ascians are the equivalents of Turks, I believe he's\nreferring to the Ottoman Empire, which was a powerful enemy of Christian\nEurope and which nearly overwhelmed the Europeans in the 16th century. The\nTurks conquered the middle east, north Africa, and large parts of Europe.\n They reached the gates of Vienna a couple of times. Read\nShakespeare's *Othello\n*for how the Turks were feared.\n\nOf course the Ottomans were not as totalitarian as the Ascians. But they\nwere powerful, well-organized, and different in language and culture.\n\nBest wishes,\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nFirst of all many many apologies if I have started a hare and then not been\naround to follow it up. it is a classic troll tactic and I am not a troll\n(although stating you are not is also a classic tactic of course, right now\nI know I can't win). Instead color me guilty of not thinking (ie. that I was\non 3 12 hour shifts immediately following my last post) before posting. Will\ntry very hard not to do this again.\n\nSecond: many many thanks to all those who have responded. I see that my 15\nyears out of the fandom have resulted in some serious lacunae in my\nknowledge; I had not previously been aware of Gene Wolfe's statements on the\nissue of north/south on Urth and also of the identity of the Ascians.\n\n[As an aside though - I wonder very much now why Wolfe initially identifies\nthe Ascians as his 'equivalent of the Turks'. Turks of what era? I'm\nguessing ancient, warlike, sweeping across the plains Turks, not the\ninhabitants of the modern land of Turkey who are not well known for\nAscian-like behavior.\n\nThe real puzzle for me in this identification however is their evident\ntotalitarian mentality, how this relates to the Turks of any era I am not\nsure.]\n\nAnyway - I finally remembered the other place (well actually one of the\nothers, but this is the most immediate one) where my vague recollection of a\nsense of north/south 'wrongness' came from.\n\nThe passage is right at the end of *Shadow*; on the last but one page of my\nArrow Paperbacks copy (p.300 of the 1981 printing). The speaker is Jonas.\n\n\"In the old times, the Lords of this world feared no one but their own\npeople, and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on a\nhill to the *north* of the city. It was not called Nessus then, because the\nriver was unpoisoned.\n\n\"Many of the people were angry at the building of that *citadel*, holding\nit to be their right to slay their lords without hindrance if they so\ndesired. But others went out in the ships that ply between the stars,\nreturning with treasure and knowledge.\"\n\n[All emphases mine of course. Also of course, the Citadel where Severian\nwas raised is in the far *south* of 'contemporary' Nessus.]\n\nAnd so on. Of course at this point Jonas diverges into a tale which sounds\nlike a fairy-story or legend, and it's entirely possible that the whole\nstatement is such a tale, that the reference to the 'citadel in the north'\nis storytelling, and not related to the (subcreated) 'reality' of Urth. But\nJonas is a survivor of ancient times and at base a machine, not a human;\nthis is in addition 'the only tale (he) knows - or nearly so'. Do robots\ntell fairy stories?\n\nIn Wolfe, they probably do :) However this entire passage gives me pause.\n\nIf I remember / note anything else, I'll present it if the whole list\nhasn't gotten tired of the subject; but any comment as helpful as those\nalready received would be very very welcome.\n\nkind regards\n\nJD\n\n\n\nOn 03/06/10 01:34, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.\n\nThe line is, \"Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right\nshoulder by morning and later in the left eye.\"\n\nOn the equinoxes, the sun rises due east everywhere in the world (well,\nnot at the poles), so the sun is over your right shoulder at dawn if you're\nfacing northwest. On the December solstice, the sun rises at its farthest\nsouth of due east; on the June solstice, at its farthest north. In the\nSouth Temperate and Antarctic Zones, the sun is always in the north at noon,\nbut in the South Tropical Zone, it's in the south at noon around the\nDecember solstice, their summer solstice. Since Severian's sun is dim, he\ncould be in the tropics even where we think of the climate as cooler than\ntropical.\n\nIt's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the south\nis cold and the north is hot. I don't see a mistake. The sun could easily\nbe more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the morning and more or\nless west (in his left eye) later.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T01:31:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<8bcd673ef83c0c5d8dc5e0e10c7a78ce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that the friendliness we talked about earlier?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:47 PM, wrote:\nAll atheists are insane.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference is\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I\nencountered Narnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third\ngrade.\n\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane\nfrom the beginning.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to\nreflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very rarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we hear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes\nthat\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes of\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in my\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions,\nwho\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far\npreachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed\nsimilar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just soft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be the\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and\nimages\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views towards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0AFBCB.1050908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T01:37:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<454980.67983.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura \nMiller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the \nreligious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory. \nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not \nat all \"believe.\"But it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even \nin the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here \nthat allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and \nactually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis \napparently wanted Narnia to be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Sometimes his work is apologetic and sometimes it isn't. The Sun \nCycle --the setting and heroes-- are Christian Gnostic. Actually, the \nsetting of the Wizard Knight is Gnostic as well with it's layers of \naeons each ruled by an archon. I doubt Wolfe is Gnostic. When Silk talks \nabout gun control, I presume Wolfe concurs. The way Able makes Disiri \nhuman is I presume a Christian figure. When Wolfe, (as I believe) \ncreates a Rajan character who is father, son, and spirit, three-in-one, \nhe is probably rationalizing the Trinity. But it is all an extremely \nlight touch. If anything IMO associating the characters Severian with \nJesus (as Wolfe certainly does) would be blasphemous if it were intended \nas Christian allegory (however loosely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and \nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even \nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2) I'm not Catholic. How do I react to the Catholicism that *does* arise \nin his stories? Let me put it this way. I have zero sympathy for anyone \nwho discovers that there is a Christian theme in the Narnia books and \nfeels \"betrayed\". I consider that ignorant bigotry. They are no \ndifferent from the Christians who have spoken to me against the \n\"unChristian elements\" in Narnia and Tolkien and said their stories were \nunsuitable for youth.\n\nThe shelves of libraries are full of stories that are condescending or \nhostile to observant Christian belief...I mean the kind of fervent \nbelief that causes people to pool their money to send missionaries to \ntell about on 12000 miles away. Those books reflect the worldview of 30s \nIntellectualism (which originally was a specific movement that was \npolitically pro-socialism and religiously materialistic) which --for \ndecades-- darkly overshadowed the publishing industry. The Great Books \nare full of moralizing and theologizing from that angle. Should \nobservant Christians feel betrayed by that? Overt liberal democracy is \npretty rare in science fiction. If the governance of the societies are \ndefined at all, they are typically centrally planned either by a \nbureaucratic government or a military order. Should I feel betrayed by \nthis or just allow myself to follow along the story the author chooses \nto weave?\n\nAs for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE \npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would \ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final \nvolume if at all. Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were \nusually children. I have had very astute readers tell me that they \ndidn't note any Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began \ndiscussing them. Anyway, Narnia is not nearly so crudely apologetic as \nPullman's answer to it.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5b540dfef9d14f5183473668cf9a103b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T01:37:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe one or two are not insane.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that the friendliness we talked about earlier?\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All atheists are insane.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference\nis\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I\nencountered Narnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and\nthird\ngrade.\n\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the\nGreat\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly\ninsane\nfrom the beginning.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it.\nSecular writers and religious writers alike \"color\" their fiction to\nreflect\ntheir political, moral and/or metaphyiscal beliefs, yet one very\nrarely\nencounters this \"betrayal\" storyline outside of discussion of certain\nChristian genre writers. I guess in the right-wing fringe media we\nhear\nabout evil homosexual/pagan agendas hidden in works, but no one takes\nthat\nstuff seriously.\n\nI might ascribe this to the generally liberal or progressive attitudes\nof\nmost literary critics, academics, and, plausibly, much of the educated\nreading class in the United States. But that doesn't really wash in\nmy\nexperience. I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions,\nwho\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far\npreachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about\nhis\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed\nsimilar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism.\n\nI think the problem (if there is a unique problem here and not just\nsoft\nbigotry against religion in general or a particular religion) must be\nthe\nperceived deception. The idea that Lewis might be planting ideas and\nimages\nsurreptiously in one's head that would act to soften one's views\ntowards\ntraditional Christianity can be conceived of nefariously.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<538d6654dd609d0bdc5fcdf7955c0f2f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T01:38:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AFBCB.1050908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His books are masterful works of high propaganda.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura\nMiller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the\nreligious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory.\nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not\nat all \"believe.\"But it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even\nin the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here\nthat allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and\nactually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis\napparently wanted Narnia to be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Sometimes his work is apologetic and sometimes it isn't. The Sun\nCycle --the setting and heroes-- are Christian Gnostic. Actually, the\nsetting of the Wizard Knight is Gnostic as well with it's layers of\naeons each ruled by an archon. I doubt Wolfe is Gnostic. When Silk talks\nabout gun control, I presume Wolfe concurs. The way Able makes Disiri\nhuman is I presume a Christian figure. When Wolfe, (as I believe)\ncreates a Rajan character who is father, son, and spirit, three-in-one,\nhe is probably rationalizing the Trinity. But it is all an extremely\nlight touch. If anything IMO associating the characters Severian with\nJesus (as Wolfe certainly does) would be blasphemous if it were intended\nas Christian allegory (however loosely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and\nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even\nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) I'm not Catholic. How do I react to the Catholicism that *does* arise\nin his stories? Let me put it this way. I have zero sympathy for anyone\nwho discovers that there is a Christian theme in the Narnia books and\nfeels \"betrayed\". I consider that ignorant bigotry. They are no\ndifferent from the Christians who have spoken to me against the\n\"unChristian elements\" in Narnia and Tolkien and said their stories were\nunsuitable for youth.\n\nThe shelves of libraries are full of stories that are condescending or\nhostile to observant Christian belief...I mean the kind of fervent\nbelief that causes people to pool their money to send missionaries to\ntell about on 12000 miles away. Those books reflect the worldview of 30s\nIntellectualism (which originally was a specific movement that was\npolitically pro-socialism and religiously materialistic) which --for\ndecades-- darkly overshadowed the publishing industry. The Great Books\nare full of moralizing and theologizing from that angle. Should\nobservant Christians feel betrayed by that? Overt liberal democracy is\npretty rare in science fiction. If the governance of the societies are\ndefined at all, they are typically centrally planned either by a\nbureaucratic government or a military order. Should I feel betrayed by\nthis or just allow myself to follow along the story the author chooses\nto weave?\n\nAs for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE\npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would\ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final\nvolume if at all. Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were\nusually children. I have had very astute readers tell me that they\ndidn't note any Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began\ndiscussing them. Anyway, Narnia is not nearly so crudely apologetic as\nPullman's answer to it.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0B0474.4030600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:14:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<83cb66843810e4560d021ec1bba42cad.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHe'd whine loudly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it. \nBut that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:25:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B0474.4030600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I bet he didn't admit to it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He'd whine loudly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it.\nBut that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87d3w499sw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:25:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B0474.4030600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He'd whine loudly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled\nit. But that didn't stop him from producing some, however\nunintentionally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By Tolkien's definition of allegory, which emphasizes authorial intention,\nunintentional allegory isn't allegory.\n\n But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always\n have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.\n I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability\n to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of\n the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\n\n(From the introduction to LotR.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<924427.49019.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<538d6654dd609d0bdc5fcdf7955c0f2f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whose? Wolfe's? Lewis'? Pullman's?\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 8:38:15 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nHis books are masterful works of high propaganda.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura\nMiller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the\nreligious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory.\nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not\nat all \"believe.\"But it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even\nin the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here\nthat allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and\nactually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis\napparently wanted Narnia to be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Sometimes his work is apologetic and sometimes it isn't. The Sun\nCycle --the setting and heroes-- are Christian Gnostic. Actually, the\nsetting of the Wizard Knight is Gnostic as well with it's layers of\naeons each ruled by an archon. I doubt Wolfe is Gnostic. When Silk talks\nabout gun control, I presume Wolfe concurs. The way Able makes Disiri\nhuman is I presume a Christian figure. When Wolfe, (as I believe)\ncreates a Rajan character who is father, son, and spirit, three-in-one,\nhe is probably rationalizing the Trinity. But it is all an extremely\nlight touch. If anything IMO associating the characters Severian with\nJesus (as Wolfe certainly does) would be blasphemous if it were intended\nas Christian allegory (however loosely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and\nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even\nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) I'm not Catholic. How do I react to the Catholicism that *does* arise\nin his stories? Let me put it this way. I have zero sympathy for anyone\nwho discovers that there is a Christian theme in the Narnia books and\nfeels \"betrayed\". I consider that ignorant bigotry. They are no\ndifferent from the Christians who have spoken to me against the\n\"unChristian elements\" in Narnia and Tolkien and said their stories were\nunsuitable for youth.\n\nThe shelves of libraries are full of stories that are condescending or\nhostile to observant Christian belief...I mean the kind of fervent\nbelief that causes people to pool their money to send missionaries to\ntell about on 12000 miles away. Those books reflect the worldview of 30s\nIntellectualism (which originally was a specific movement that was\npolitically pro-socialism and religiously materialistic) which --for\ndecades-- darkly overshadowed the publishing industry. The Great Books\nare full of moralizing and theologizing from that angle. Should\nobservant Christians feel betrayed by that? Overt liberal democracy is\npretty rare in science fiction. If the governance of the societies are\ndefined at all, they are typically centrally planned either by a\nbureaucratic government or a military order. Should I feel betrayed by\nthis or just allow myself to follow along the story the author chooses\nto weave?\n\nAs for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE\npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would\ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final\nvolume if at all. Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were\nusually children. I have had very astute readers tell me that they\ndidn't note any Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began\ndiscussing them. Anyway, Narnia is not nearly so crudely apologetic as\nPullman's answer to it.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<878w6s99he.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:32:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AFBCB.1050908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE\npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would\ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final\nvolume if at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree for most of the series, but the explicit Christian parallels in\n_The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_ are pretty blatantly obvious if\nyou know the corresponding bits of Christianity. The stone table scene in\nparticular is, I think, difficult to read as anything other than an\nexplicit parallel to the death and resurrection of Christ.\n\nThe degree of explicit parallelism drops off a *lot* in the other books,\nwith (as you note) the possible exception of _The Last Battle_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were usually\nchildren. I have had very astute readers tell me that they didn't note\nany Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began discussing\nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Til We Have Faces_ is more in line with books like _The Voyage of the\nDawn Treader_, where the Christianity is there if you want to look for it\nbut it's fairly easy to not see it if you're not looking for it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<470856.15069.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:39:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B0474.4030600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient languages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval literature. Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to \"allegory\" was specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was of course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The Inklings_ and other stuff from his letters.)\n\nTo the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to mythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its original context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over it. But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt \"message,\" if that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible, all of which he loved for their mythic status, are generally \"allegorical\" but not allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is allegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized culture, etc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's Progress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be decoded in a this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the idea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany \"allegory.\" I think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be thought of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that -- after all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you say \"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as Spenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that uses its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce an icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way for me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHe'd whine loudly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it. But that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:41:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<924427.49019.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whose? Wolfe's? Lewis'? Pullman's?\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 8:38:15 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nHis books are masterful works of high propaganda.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura\nMiller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the\nreligious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory.\nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not\nat all \"believe.\"But it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even\nin the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here\nthat allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and\nactually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis\napparently wanted Narnia to be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) Sometimes his work is apologetic and sometimes it isn't. The Sun\nCycle --the setting and heroes-- are Christian Gnostic. Actually, the\nsetting of the Wizard Knight is Gnostic as well with it's layers of\naeons each ruled by an archon. I doubt Wolfe is Gnostic. When Silk talks\nabout gun control, I presume Wolfe concurs. The way Able makes Disiri\nhuman is I presume a Christian figure. When Wolfe, (as I believe)\ncreates a Rajan character who is father, son, and spirit, three-in-one,\nhe is probably rationalizing the Trinity. But it is all an extremely\nlight touch. If anything IMO associating the characters Severian with\nJesus (as Wolfe certainly does) would be blasphemous if it were intended\nas Christian allegory (however loosely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and\nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even\nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) I'm not Catholic. How do I react to the Catholicism that *does* arise\nin his stories? Let me put it this way. I have zero sympathy for anyone\nwho discovers that there is a Christian theme in the Narnia books and\nfeels \"betrayed\". I consider that ignorant bigotry. They are no\ndifferent from the Christians who have spoken to me against the\n\"unChristian elements\" in Narnia and Tolkien and said their stories were\nunsuitable for youth.\n\nThe shelves of libraries are full of stories that are condescending or\nhostile to observant Christian belief...I mean the kind of fervent\nbelief that causes people to pool their money to send missionaries to\ntell about on 12000 miles away. Those books reflect the worldview of 30s\nIntellectualism (which originally was a specific movement that was\npolitically pro-socialism and religiously materialistic) which --for\ndecades-- darkly overshadowed the publishing industry. The Great Books\nare full of moralizing and theologizing from that angle. Should\nobservant Christians feel betrayed by that? Overt liberal democracy is\npretty rare in science fiction. If the governance of the societies are\ndefined at all, they are typically centrally planned either by a\nbureaucratic government or a military order. Should I feel betrayed by\nthis or just allow myself to follow along the story the author chooses\nto weave?\n\nAs for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE\npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would\ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final\nvolume if at all. Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were\nusually children. I have had very astute readers tell me that they\ndidn't note any Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began\ndiscussing them. Anyway, Narnia is not nearly so crudely apologetic as\nPullman's answer to it.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<792189.17435.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:47:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shouldn't a master of high propaganda hit the best seller list more often? heh\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:41:00 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWolfe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whose? Wolfe's? Lewis'? Pullman's?\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 8:38:15 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nHis books are masterful works of high propaganda.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura\nMiller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the\nreligious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory.\nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not\nat all \"believe.\"But it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even\nin the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here\nthat allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and\nactually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis\napparently wanted Narnia to be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) Sometimes his work is apologetic and sometimes it isn't. The Sun\nCycle --the setting and heroes-- are Christian Gnostic. Actually, the\nsetting of the Wizard Knight is Gnostic as well with it's layers of\naeons each ruled by an archon. I doubt Wolfe is Gnostic. When Silk talks\nabout gun control, I presume Wolfe concurs. The way Able makes Disiri\nhuman is I presume a Christian figure. When Wolfe, (as I believe)\ncreates a Rajan character who is father, son, and spirit, three-in-one,\nhe is probably rationalizing the Trinity. But it is all an extremely\nlight touch. If anything IMO associating the characters Severian with\nJesus (as Wolfe certainly does) would be blasphemous if it were intended\nas Christian allegory (however loosely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and\nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even\nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) I'm not Catholic. How do I react to the Catholicism that *does* arise\nin his stories? Let me put it this way. I have zero sympathy for anyone\nwho discovers that there is a Christian theme in the Narnia books and\nfeels \"betrayed\". I consider that ignorant bigotry. They are no\ndifferent from the Christians who have spoken to me against the\n\"unChristian elements\" in Narnia and Tolkien and said their stories were\nunsuitable for youth.\n\nThe shelves of libraries are full of stories that are condescending or\nhostile to observant Christian belief...I mean the kind of fervent\nbelief that causes people to pool their money to send missionaries to\ntell about on 12000 miles away. Those books reflect the worldview of 30s\nIntellectualism (which originally was a specific movement that was\npolitically pro-socialism and religiously materialistic) which --for\ndecades-- darkly overshadowed the publishing industry. The Great Books\nare full of moralizing and theologizing from that angle. Should\nobservant Christians feel betrayed by that? Overt liberal democracy is\npretty rare in science fiction. If the governance of the societies are\ndefined at all, they are typically centrally planned either by a\nbureaucratic government or a military order. Should I feel betrayed by\nthis or just allow myself to follow along the story the author chooses\nto weave?\n\nAs for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE\npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would\ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final\nvolume if at all. Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were\nusually children. I have had very astute readers tell me that they\ndidn't note any Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began\ndiscussing them. Anyway, Narnia is not nearly so crudely apologetic as\nPullman's answer to it.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200bec9eed8c1c838ede1ee9ab9ceb3b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T02:57:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<792189.17435.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What does the high in high propaganda mean?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shouldn't a master of high propaganda hit the best seller list more often?\nheh\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:41:00 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWolfe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whose? Wolfe's? Lewis'? Pullman's?\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 8:38:15 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nHis books are masterful works of high propaganda.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_The Magician's Book: A Skeptic's Adventures in Narnia_ by Laura\nMiller. Basically: young girl loves Narnia, clueless about the\nreligious aspect. Grows up, eyes open, feels betrayed by the allegory.\nGets even older, comes to terms with loving a book that she does not\nat all \"believe.\"But it brings to mind two questions about Wolfe:\n1) In what sense do people feel that his books are \"allegorical\" (even\nin the loosest sense) of his (or any) religious views? I take it here\nthat allegorical means more than being informed-by-religion and\nactually instructive-of or apologetic-for a certain theology, as Lewis\napparently wanted Narnia to be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1) Sometimes his work is apologetic and sometimes it isn't. The Sun\nCycle --the setting and heroes-- are Christian Gnostic. Actually, the\nsetting of the Wizard Knight is Gnostic as well with it's layers of\naeons each ruled by an archon. I doubt Wolfe is Gnostic. When Silk\ntalks\nabout gun control, I presume Wolfe concurs. The way Able makes Disiri\nhuman is I presume a Christian figure. When Wolfe, (as I believe)\ncreates a Rajan character who is father, son, and spirit, three-in-one,\nhe is probably rationalizing the Trinity. But it is all an extremely\nlight touch. If anything IMO associating the characters Severian with\nJesus (as Wolfe certainly does) would be blasphemous if it were\nintended\nas Christian allegory (however loosely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "2) How do his non-Catholic readers react to the overt theologizing and\nmoralizing that is obviously there at times? (This would go for even\nCatholic readers who might find something non-orthodox.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) I'm not Catholic. How do I react to the Catholicism that *does*\narise\nin his stories? Let me put it this way. I have zero sympathy for anyone\nwho discovers that there is a Christian theme in the Narnia books and\nfeels \"betrayed\". I consider that ignorant bigotry. They are no\ndifferent from the Christians who have spoken to me against the\n\"unChristian elements\" in Narnia and Tolkien and said their stories\nwere\nunsuitable for youth.\n\nThe shelves of libraries are full of stories that are condescending or\nhostile to observant Christian belief...I mean the kind of fervent\nbelief that causes people to pool their money to send missionaries to\ntell about on 12000 miles away. Those books reflect the worldview of\n30s\nIntellectualism (which originally was a specific movement that was\npolitically pro-socialism and religiously materialistic) which --for\ndecades-- darkly overshadowed the publishing industry. The Great Books\nare full of moralizing and theologizing from that angle. Should\nobservant Christians feel betrayed by that? Overt liberal democracy is\npretty rare in science fiction. If the governance of the societies are\ndefined at all, they are typically centrally planned either by a\nbureaucratic government or a military order. Should I feel betrayed by\nthis or just allow myself to follow along the story the author chooses\nto weave?\n\nAs for Narnia, if people didn't continuously and erroneously INTRODUCE\npeople to the books as \"Christian allegory\", not that many people would\ncatch on to the Christian themes mixed in there -- not until the final\nvolume if at all. Lewis noted that most did not and those that did were\nusually children. I have had very astute readers tell me that they\ndidn't note any Christian themes in \"Til We Have Faces\" until *I* began\ndiscussing them. Anyway, Narnia is not nearly so crudely apologetic as\nPullman's answer to it.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T03:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "<470856.15069.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have\ndone so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much\nprefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the\nthought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the\nreader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\" --Tolkien,\nForeword to The Lord of the Rings\n\nBest wishes,\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient\nlanguages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval literature.\nApparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to \"allegory\" was\nspecifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio\nAmantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was of\ncourse familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The Inklings_ and\nother stuff from his letters.)\n\nTo the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to mythology\nand romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its original\ncontext and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over it. But Tolkien\nhimself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt \"message,\" if that's what\nwe mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible, all of which he\nloved for their mythic status, are generally \"allegorical\" but not\nallegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is\nallegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized culture,\netc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's\nProgress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be decoded in\na this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the\nidea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany \"allegory.\" I\nthink Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be thought\nof as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that -- after\nall, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he\nresisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you say\n\"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as\nSpenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that uses\nits symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce an\nicon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way for me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0B118B.5030008@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T03:10:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/06/10 02:00, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe Commonwealth is politically similar - identical, really - to the\nByzantine empire.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the Ascians are intended to be *geopolitically* similar to the Turks \nrather than having a cultural or internal-political resemblance? Tx \nBrunians, this now makes sense to me.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n\nps Please forgive if sometimes my responses are vaguer than they should \nbe - my ISP's mail server, however I fiddle with the settings, *will \nnot* return my own mailing list posts to me unless I start a new thread. \nI can only see others' responses unless I go to the ISP website and \ncheck out the stored messages, or to urth.net and check out list mails \nthere. I don't often have time to do those things." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9767b6f0001c946a8081482d71b2ba24.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T03:16:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B118B.5030008@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right you are.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/06/10 02:00, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Commonwealth is politically similar - identical, really - to the\nByzantine empire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the Ascians are intended to be *geopolitically* similar to the Turks\nrather than having a cultural or internal-political resemblance? Tx\nBrunians, this now makes sense to me.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n\nps Please forgive if sometimes my responses are vaguer than they should\nbe - my ISP's mail server, however I fiddle with the settings, *will\nnot* return my own mailing list posts to me unless I start a new thread.\nI can only see others' responses unless I go to the ISP website and\ncheck out the stored messages, or to urth.net and check out list mails\nthere. I don't often have time to do those things.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0B2962.1050509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T04:51:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AF273.7070303@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/5/2010 7:57 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nAnd so on. Of course at this point Jonas diverges into a tale which\nsounds like a fairy-story or legend, and it's entirely possible that the\nwhole statement is such a tale, that the reference to the 'citadel in\nthe north' is storytelling, and not related to the (subcreated)\n'reality' of Urth. But Jonas is a survivor of ancient times and at base\na machine, not a human; this is in addition 'the only tale (he) knows -\nor nearly so'. Do robots tell fairy stories?\n\nIn Wolfe, they probably do :) However this entire passage gives me pause." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Wolfe, a \"robot\" is often the most or the only reliable source of \ninformation. The can go wrong or be fed bad data, but they generally \nseem free of motivation to lie, though for this purpose you'd have to \nrule out the recorded personalities on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T04:53:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory. He took\nthe time to translate it, after all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\n\"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always\nhave done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I\nmuch prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the\nthought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the\nreader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\" --Tolkien,\nForeword to The Lord of the Rings\n\nBest wishes,\nJack\n\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient\nlanguages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval literature.\nApparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to \"allegory\" was\nspecifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio\nAmantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was of\ncourse familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The Inklings_ and\nother stuff from his letters.)\n\nTo the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to\nmythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its\noriginal context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over it.\nBut Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt \"message,\" if\nthat's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible, all of\nwhich he loved for their mythic status, are generally \"allegorical\" but not\nallegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is\nallegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized culture,\netc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's\nProgress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be decoded in\na this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the\nidea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany \"allegory.\" I\nthink Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be thought\nof as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that -- after\nall, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he\nresisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you say\n\"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as\nSpenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that uses\nits symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce an\nicon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way for me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " } ] }, { "message_id": "<009b01cb0535$75580760$9ace4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:02:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0AF273.7070303@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway - I finally remembered the other place (well actually one of the\nothers, but this is the most immediate one) where my vague recollection\nof a sense of north/south 'wrongness' came from.\n\nThe passage is right at the end of *Shadow*; on the last but one page of\nmy Arrow Paperbacks copy (p.300 of the 1981 printing). The speaker is\nJonas.\n\n\"In the old times, the Lords of this world feared no one but their own\npeople, and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on\na hill to the *north* of the city. It was not called Nessus then,\nbecause the river was unpoisoned.\n\n\"Many of the people were angry at the building of that *citadel*,\nholding it to be their right to slay their lords without hindrance if\nthey so desired. But others went out in the ships that ply between the\nstars, returning with treasure and knowledge.\"\n\n[All emphases mine of course. Also of course, the Citadel where Severian\nwas raised is in the far *south* of 'contemporary' Nessus.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nessus started out on the Gyoll on or near the southwest coast of the\ncontinent. As the river became polluted, the city kept growing upstream, in\na generally northern direction. At some point, the rulers built the Citadel\nto the north of the city as it then existed. Over many years, the living\ncity grew and caught up with the Citadel, then grew beyond it, so that by\nthe time Sev was born the Citadel was near the southern edge of the\ninhabited portion of the city.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<894100.75087.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it's an allegory...just a \"good\" one. Even Tolkien broke his own rules: what is \"Leaf by Niggle\" if not an allegory?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "<894100.75087.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a fable. If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death was\ndeemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n Of course it's an allegory...just a \"good\" one. Even Tolkien broke his\nown rules: what is \"Leaf by Niggle\" if not an allegory?\n\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* John Watkins \n\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Allegory\n\nI rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory. He\ntook the time to translate it, after all.\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always\nhave done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I\nmuch prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the\nthought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the\nreader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\" --Tolkien,\nForeword to The Lord of the Rings\n\nBest wishes,\nJack\n\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient\nlanguages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval literature.\nApparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to \"allegory\" was\nspecifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio\nAmantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was of\ncourse familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The Inklings_ and\nother stuff from his letters.)\n\nTo the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to\nmythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its\noriginal context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over it.\nBut Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt \"message,\" if\nthat's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible, all of\nwhich he loved for their mythic status, are generally \"allegorical\" but not\nallegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is\nallegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized culture,\netc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's\nProgress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be decoded in\na this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the\nidea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany \"allegory.\" I\nthink Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be thought\nof as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that -- after\nall, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he\nresisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you say\n\"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as\nSpenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that uses\nits symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce an\nicon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way for me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2ec75446447f9cd11cd9cac551d6d1e2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a fable. If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death\nwas\ndeemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Of course it's an allegory...just a \"good\" one. Even Tolkien broke his\nown rules: what is \"Leaf by Niggle\" if not an allegory?\n\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* John Watkins \n\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Allegory\n\nI rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory. He\ntook the time to translate it, after all.\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always\nhave done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.\nI\nmuch prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to\nthe\nthought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of\nthe\nreader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\"\n--Tolkien,\nForeword to The Lord of the Rings\n\nBest wishes,\nJack\n\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of\nancient\nlanguages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval\nliterature.\nApparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to \"allegory\" was\nspecifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio\nAmantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was\nof\ncourse familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The\nInklings_ and\nother stuff from his letters.)\n\nTo the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to\nmythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its\noriginal context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over\nit.\nBut Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt\n\"message,\" if\nthat's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible,\nall of\nwhich he loved for their mythic status, are generally \"allegorical\"\nbut not\nallegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The\nPearl_ is\nallegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized\nculture,\netc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's\nProgress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be\ndecoded in\na this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated\nthe\nidea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany\n\"allegory.\" I\nthink Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be\nthought\nof as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that --\nafter\nall, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he\nresisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you\nsay\n\"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as\nSpenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that\nuses\nits symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce\nan\nicon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way\nfor me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " } ] }, { "message_id": "<504522.17795.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T06:11:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, maybe. But now we're quibbling. You're a fan of \"fable.\" I'm a fan of \"allegory.\" But we likely think the words mean similar things.\n\n\n\n\n\n\nIt's a fable. If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death was deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.\n\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nOf course it's an allegory...just a \"good\" one. Even Tolkien broke his own rules: what is \"Leaf by Niggle\" if not an allegory?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13adaed6bf9c46eef41311a59ce3ae79.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T06:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "<504522.17795.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are terms.\n\nThey have specific meanings.\n\nAllegories and fables are different.\n\nThe differences can be described.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, maybe. But now we're quibbling. You're a fan of \"fable.\" I'm a fan\nof \"allegory.\" But we likely think the words mean similar things.\n\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:19:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Allegory\n\nIt's a fable. If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death\nwas deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.\n\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nOf course it's an allegory...just a \"good\" one. Even Tolkien broke his own\nrules: what is \"Leaf by Niggle\" if not an allegory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\n From: John Watkins " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Allegory\n\n\nI rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory. He\ntook the time to translate it, after all.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith \nwrote:\n\n\"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always\nhave done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I\nmuch prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to\nthe thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of\nthe reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\"\n--Tolkien, Foreword to The Lord of the Rings" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Best wishes,\nJack\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer \nwrote:\n\nI think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient\nlanguages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval\nliterature. Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to\n\"allegory\" was specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers\nPlowman_/_Confessio Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties\nand which he was of course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my\nmemory of _The Inklings_ and other stuff from his letters.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to\nmythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its\noriginal context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over\nit. But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt\n\"message,\" if that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even\nthe Bible, all of which he loved for their mythic status, are generally\n\"allegorical\" but not allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of\nthe Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is allegorical. They model a way of living, a\nmindset, an idealized culture, etc., but they aren't allegorical in the\nreductive way that _Pilgrim's Progress_ has walking personifications\nand where meanings can be decoded in a this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the\nidea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany \"allegory.\"\nI think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be\nthought of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like\nthat -- after all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our\noutlook? But he resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that\nmeant that you say \"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved\nthe puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as\nSpenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that\nuses its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just\nreduce an icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the\nsame way for me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T10:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<8bcd673ef83c0c5d8dc5e0e10c7a78ce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow for a place at the local sanatorium.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<663c8352d71ea84004aeab6454daef8d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T11:00:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow for a\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T11:18:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<663c8352d71ea84004aeab6454daef8d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow for a\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87788b9490e32927a1610132356e1200.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T11:25:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the old days insane people were confined to what were called lunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a mental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow for\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T11:28:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<87788b9490e32927a1610132356e1200.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called lunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a mental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow for\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T12:00:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called lunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a mental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T12:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called lunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a mental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply tomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<065fb4adf148dc56c3e8d18a30c222aa.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T12:17:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T12:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<065fb4adf148dc56c3e8d18a30c222aa.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please just make things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight answer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just seems like you're trying to evade it.\n\n \n\n \n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T12:43:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please just\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just seems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T12:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that possessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal sanity. However that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and simple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please answer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and others) of insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do you have one or not? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please just\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just seems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BA18D.6000407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:24:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as I suggested, it was a childish response. I think I regarded \nMiddle-earth and Narnia etc. as my own personal escape from a mindless \nexistence in which being dragged (sometimes literally) to church every \nSunday played no small role. So finding that Narnia was no escape at all \nbut rather, at worst, a trap set by the very people I resisted, \nrepresented exactly the betrayal you might imagine it to be in such \ncircumstances. (Plenty of literary references I could draw on there...) \nOn the other hand, I was able to find in Tolkien a fellow resister of \nsorts. Thank god for the Church of England and its ingrained \nagnosticism! ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 5 Jun \n2010 20:01:27 -0400 From: John Watkins To: \nThe Urth Mailing List Subject: Re: (urth) \nReligious writers and audiences Message-ID: \n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\" Do people feel similarly \nbetrayed by Doestoevsky? Again, I find it bizarre. I can't imagine \nthinking to myself \"How dare Author X have different views than me!\" I \ncan imagine thinking \"Well, I don't choose to spend time on this,\" but \nnot a sense of betrayal per se. On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 7:58 PM, David " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stockhoff wrote:\nThe comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference is\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I encountered\nNarnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third grade.\nWolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane\nfrom the beginning.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BA1F7.3050508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:26:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BA18D.6000407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're being \"friendly,\" right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <8bcd673ef83c0c5d8dc5e0e10c7a78ce.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAll atheists are insane.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9311b61d93454e12ecba93aed0ae3110.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly is\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal sanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and others)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do you\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just seems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BA3F2.5060506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:34:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<009b01cb0535$75580760$9ace4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Ottomans laid siege to Vienna three times over centuries, each time failing to capture the city. They did however take Constantinople and never gave it up. Note that Nessus is based on Byzantium, so the enemy would have to be Turks anyway.\n\nBut additionally Turks therefore are the Saracens of the Renaissance and represent the eternal Orientalist European \"Invader from the East,\" but with an implacable and bureaucratic flavor rather than a wild, animal-like flavor (like the Mongols on their ponies). Take that to the nth degree and you might get something like the Ascians.\n\nNessus and the Commonwealth have a very obvious Middle-earth-like mentality regarding the geography of Urth. (See the classic New Yorker cover about the view of the world from Manhattan for a modern version.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 01:57:23 +0100\nFrom: Jane Delawney \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\nMessage-ID: <4C0AF273.7070303 at sky.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nFirst of all many many apologies if I have started a hare and then not \nbeen around to follow it up. it is a classic troll tactic and I am not a \ntroll (although stating you are not is also a classic tactic of course, \nright now I know I can't win). Instead color me guilty of not thinking \n(ie. that I was on 3 12 hour shifts immediately following my last post) \nbefore posting. Will try very hard not to do this again.\n\nSecond: many many thanks to all those who have responded. I see that my \n15 years out of the fandom have resulted in some serious lacunae in my \nknowledge; I had not previously been aware of Gene Wolfe's statements on \nthe issue of north/south on Urth and also of the identity of the Ascians.\n\n[As an aside though - I wonder very much now why Wolfe initially \nidentifies the Ascians as his 'equivalent of the Turks'. Turks of what \nera? I'm guessing ancient, warlike, sweeping across the plains Turks, \nnot the inhabitants of the modern land of Turkey who are not well known \nfor Ascian-like behavior.\n\nThe real puzzle for me in this identification however is their evident \ntotalitarian mentality, how this relates to the Turks of any era I am \nnot sure.]" } ] }, { "message_id": "<099ca563d53eb75debce1a56971211a8.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:39:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BA1F7.3050508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely.\n\n.\n\nYou're being \"friendly,\" right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <8bcd673ef83c0c5d8dc5e0e10c7a78ce.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAll atheists are insane.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<413f2dd2edebf15cf4e14cbe5eba702e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:40:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BA3F2.5060506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the centuries before the Ottomans took Byzantium, they were behaving as\nthey later behaved in reference to Vienna.\n\nPeople were concerned.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Ottomans laid siege to Vienna three times over centuries, each time\nfailing to capture the city. They did however take Constantinople and\nnever gave it up. Note that Nessus is based on Byzantium, so the enemy\nwould have to be Turks anyway.\n\nBut additionally Turks therefore are the Saracens of the Renaissance and\nrepresent the eternal Orientalist European \"Invader from the East,\" but\nwith an implacable and bureaucratic flavor rather than a wild, animal-like\nflavor (like the Mongols on their ponies). Take that to the nth degree and\nyou might get something like the Ascians.\n\nNessus and the Commonwealth have a very obvious Middle-earth-like\nmentality regarding the geography of Urth. (See the classic New Yorker\ncover about the view of the world from Manhattan for a modern version.)\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 01:57:23 +0100\nFrom: Jane Delawney \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\nMessage-ID: <4C0AF273.7070303 at sky.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nFirst of all many many apologies if I have started a hare and then not\nbeen around to follow it up. it is a classic troll tactic and I am not a\ntroll (although stating you are not is also a classic tactic of course,\nright now I know I can't win). Instead color me guilty of not thinking\n(ie. that I was on 3 12 hour shifts immediately following my last post)\nbefore posting. Will try very hard not to do this again.\n\nSecond: many many thanks to all those who have responded. I see that my\n15 years out of the fandom have resulted in some serious lacunae in my\nknowledge; I had not previously been aware of Gene Wolfe's statements on\nthe issue of north/south on Urth and also of the identity of the Ascians.\n\n[As an aside though - I wonder very much now why Wolfe initially\nidentifies the Ascians as his 'equivalent of the Turks'. Turks of what\nera? I'm guessing ancient, warlike, sweeping across the plains Turks,\nnot the inhabitants of the modern land of Turkey who are not well known\nfor Ascian-like behavior.\n\nThe real puzzle for me in this identification however is their evident\ntotalitarian mentality, how this relates to the Turks of any era I am\nnot sure.]\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:41:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<9311b61d93454e12ecba93aed0ae3110.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What!??!?!\n\n \n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for me; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and others) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm not going to waste more time with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 09:34:08 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nDo you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly is\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal sanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and others)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do you\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just seems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Accuse is a strong word.\n\nYou play fast and loose with terms.\n\nWhat does the term 'insane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'insane'?\n\nYou may take this as one question or two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm\nnot going to waste more time with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 09:34:08 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nDo you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly\nis\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal\nsanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and\nothers)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do\nyou\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you\nplease\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a\nstraight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just\nseems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were\ncalled\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed\nwith a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll\napply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by\nMicrosoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2de5c319f34e93a7c47e0260cac081ec.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are participating in a correspondance.\n\nWhat do you think you are doing?\n\nWhat does the term 'insane' mean?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm\nnot going to waste more time with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 09:34:08 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nDo you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly\nis\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal\nsanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and\nothers)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do\nyou\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you\nplease\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a\nstraight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just\nseems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were\ncalled\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed\nwith a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll\napply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by\nMicrosoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T13:49:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not accusation.\n\nThis is demonstration.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm\nnot going to waste more time with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 09:34:08 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nDo you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly\nis\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal\nsanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and\nothers)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do\nyou\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you\nplease\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a\nstraight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just\nseems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were\ncalled\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed\nwith a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll\napply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by\nMicrosoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BAB18.8050707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he considers the existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between them and therefore no need to construct an argument for them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n \n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for me; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and others) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm not going to waste more time with this.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:09:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BAB18.8050707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's right. brunians has repeatedly referred to his direct\nexperiences of what others would call the supernatural. It may be that,\nfrom his perspective (or feigned perspective), it makes as much sense to\ndeny the existence of God as to deny the existence of the sun.\n\nEven if I shared this perspective, I'd like to think I'd understand that\nmost other people didn't and behave accordingly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:05 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nPedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he considers\nthe existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire\nuniverse to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his observations are\nbeliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between them and\ntherefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \n\nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm\nnot going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7f7261d03e25f94588a8159a54ce1970.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:24:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BAB18.8050707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro's words demonstrate what I am talking about.\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he considers\nthe existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire\nuniverse to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his observations are\nbeliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between them\nand therefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm\nnot going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<399c2de2a5056429b0a27d2ec1066d0a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:24:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if this perspective was true, where then would you be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's right. brunians has repeatedly referred to his direct\nexperiences of what others would call the supernatural. It may be that,\nfrom his perspective (or feigned perspective), it makes as much sense to\ndeny the existence of God as to deny the existence of the sun.\n\nEven if I shared this perspective, I'd like to think I'd understand that\nmost other people didn't and behave accordingly.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:05 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders\nthe existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire\nuniverse to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his observations\nare\nbeliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between them\nand\ntherefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \n\nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\"\nfor\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing.\nI'm\nnot going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:49:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<399c2de2a5056429b0a27d2ec1066d0a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where would I be if I shared the perspective but acted as though I\nunderstood that there were those who didn't and that those people remain\nrational?\n\nI guess I'd have ironclad faith and yet be an accepted and polite member of\ncivil society. Doesn't sound too bad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:24 AM, wrote:\nAnd if this perspective was true, where then would you be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that's right. brunians has repeatedly referred to his direct\nexperiences of what others would call the supernatural. It may be that,\nfrom his perspective (or feigned perspective), it makes as much sense to\ndeny the existence of God as to deny the existence of the sun.\n\nEven if I shared this perspective, I'd like to think I'd understand that\nmost other people didn't and behave accordingly.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:05 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Pedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders\nthe existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire\nuniverse to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his observations\nare\nbeliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between them\nand\ntherefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \n\nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\"\nfor\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing.\nI'm\nnot going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<895328.87276.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:52:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Allegory", "in_reply_to": "<13adaed6bf9c46eef41311a59ce3ae79.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, sure. But they're also serving very similar purposes as far as this discussion goes. (There's context as well as definition.) Both are didactic types of writing. And the discussion so far about allegory has focused on an author's didactic purposes rather than the difference, say, between personification-allegory and beast fables.\n\nIf we go with Tolkien's distinction between \"applicability\" and \"allegory,\" I would think that insofar as a fable has a \"lesson\" to be learned, it's still didactic and, to use Tolkien's phrase about allegory, something that \"resides...in the purposed domination of the author.\"\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 1:31:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Allegory\n\nThey are terms.\n\nThey have specific meanings.\n\nAllegories and fables are different.\n\nThe differences can be described.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, maybe. But now we're quibbling. You're a fan of \"fable.\" I'm a fan\nof \"allegory.\" But we likely think the words mean similar things.\n\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:19:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Allegory\n\nIt's a fable. If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death\nwas deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.\n\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nOf course it's an allegory...just a \"good\" one. Even Tolkien broke his own\nrules: what is \"Leaf by Niggle\" if not an allegory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\n From: John Watkins " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Allegory\n\n\nI rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory. He\ntook the time to translate it, after all.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith \nwrote:\n\n\"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always\nhave done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I\nmuch prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to\nthe thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse\n'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of\nthe reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.\"\n--Tolkien, Foreword to The Lord of the Rings" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Best wishes,\nJack\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer \nwrote:\n\nI think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient\nlanguages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval\nliterature. Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to\n\"allegory\" was specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers\nPlowman_/_Confessio Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties\nand which he was of course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my\nmemory of _The Inklings_ and other stuff from his letters.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to\nmythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its\noriginal context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over\nit. But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt\n\"message,\" if that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even\nthe Bible, all of which he loved for their mythic status, are generally\n\"allegorical\" but not allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of\nthe Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is allegorical. They model a way of living, a\nmindset, an idealized culture, etc., but they aren't allegorical in the\nreductive way that _Pilgrim's Progress_ has walking personifications\nand where meanings can be decoded in a this-means-that relationship.\n\nThey also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the\nidea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany \"allegory.\"\nI think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be\nthought of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like\nthat -- after all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our\noutlook? But he resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that\nmeant that you say \"Sauron is Hitler\" and walk away thinking you solved\nthe puzzle.\n\nRelation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as\nSpenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that\nuses its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just\nreduce an icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the\nsame way for me.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nOn 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "He'd whine loudly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it.\nBut that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org/ >\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net/\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--\nBest wishes,\nJack\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<700236.76028.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T14:59:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<9311b61d93454e12ecba93aed0ae3110.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just out of curiosity: are you implying that we should assume that your emails have the same subtlety, depth, and layers as Wolfe's fiction?\n\nWho's going to write the Lexicon Brunians for the rest of us so that we can have the vast meaning unpacked from your so often terse and dense missives? heh...\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 8:34:08 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nDo you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly is\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal sanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and others)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do you\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just seems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were called\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with a\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM\nprotection.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T15:02:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BAB18.8050707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I misinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such views (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I appologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in short, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n \n\nOver and out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:05:12 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nPedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he considers the existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between them and therefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\" for me; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me (and others) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for nothing. I'm not going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:28:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are not talking about rationality.\n\nWe are talking about sanity.\n\nYou are behaving as if the two terms were identical.\n\nThey are not.\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWill no one attempt to answer this simple question?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where would I be if I shared the perspective but acted as though I\nunderstood that there were those who didn't and that those people remain\nrational?\n\nI guess I'd have ironclad faith and yet be an accepted and polite member\nof\ncivil society. Doesn't sound too bad.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:24 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if this perspective was true, where then would you be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that's right. brunians has repeatedly referred to his direct\nexperiences of what others would call the supernatural. It may be\nthat,\nfrom his perspective (or feigned perspective), it makes as much sense\nto\ndeny the existence of God as to deny the existence of the sun.\n\nEven if I shared this perspective, I'd like to think I'd understand\nthat\nmost other people didn't and behave accordingly.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:05 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Pedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders\nthe existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire\nuniverse to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his\nobservations\nare\nbeliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between\nthem\nand\ntherefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \n\nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it\n\"easier\"\nfor\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me\n(and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for\nnothing.\nI'm\nnot going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:29:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<700236.76028.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may assume whatever you choose to assume.\n\nIt has nothing to do with me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just out of curiosity: are you implying that we should assume that your\nemails have the same subtlety, depth, and layers as Wolfe's fiction?\n\nWho's going to write the Lexicon Brunians for the rest of us so that we\ncan have the vast meaning unpacked from your so often terse and dense\nmissives? heh...\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 8:34:08 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nDo you insist that Gene Wolfe be explicit in his writing?\n\nHe is one of my major influences.\n\nThis insistence that something perfectly implicit be stated explicitly is\npart of what I am talking about.\n\nI'd like to thank you for being as obliging as you are being.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At this point I'm not confusing anything. No, I don't think that\npossessing verbal logic and consistency in one's arguments equal sanity.\nHowever that is not what I asked you. I just asked you a straight and\nsimple question: Why am I (and all atheists) insane? Could you please\nanswer the question? I'm asking you why are you accusing me (and others)\nof insanity and you continuously fail to provide a straight answer. Do\nyou\nhave one or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:43:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'sane'?\n\nYou may take that as one question or as two.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Please forgive my ignorance and stupidity, dear sir. Could you please\njust\nmake things simple for this poor ignorant soul and provide a straight\nanswer/argument to why I'm insane? Because at this point it just\nseems\nlike you're trying to evade it.\n\n\n\n\n\nThank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:17:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYou are confusing sanity with verbal logic and consistency.\n\nDo you seriously believe that the two are identical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So you basically don't have an argument. That's sane!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:00:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIt may become clear with time.\n\nIf it does you won't be insane any longer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I'm still not certain exactly why I'm insane, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:25:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nIn the old days insane people were confined to what were\ncalled\nlunatic\nasylums.\n\nBut in this MODERN DAY, only people who can be diagnosed with\na\nmental\nillness are treated in psychiatric hospitals.\n\nInsane people are mostly at large these days.\n\nHell, they're mostly running things.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Oh, thanksfor clearing that up. I'm just nuts then ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:00:44 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nWhy?\n\nI didn't say y'all were mentally ill.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:47:30 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAll atheists are insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Thanks to you I'll apply\ntomorrow\nfor\na\nplace at the local sanatorium.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id`969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8f1fa9a8c63bbcd6d2ae65009b1bc150.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am actually criticizing your use of terms, which I maintain is insane.\n\nThe fact that just about everybody else, not only atheists, uses terms in\na similar fashion to you is totally nuncupatory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:05:12 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nPedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders the existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the\nentire universe to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his\nobservations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no\nlight between them and therefore no need to construct an argument for\nthem.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\"\nfor me; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me\n(and others) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for\nnothing. I'm not going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8f605744307be22676e66845ef85a9b6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:31:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've got a pretty good billet.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where would I be if I shared the perspective but acted as though I\nunderstood that there were those who didn't and that those people remain\nrational?\n\nI guess I'd have ironclad faith and yet be an accepted and polite member\nof\ncivil society. Doesn't sound too bad.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:24 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if this perspective was true, where then would you be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that's right. brunians has repeatedly referred to his direct\nexperiences of what others would call the supernatural. It may be\nthat,\nfrom his perspective (or feigned perspective), it makes as much sense\nto\ndeny the existence of God as to deny the existence of the sun.\n\nEven if I shared this perspective, I'd like to think I'd understand\nthat\nmost other people didn't and behave accordingly.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 10:05 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Pedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders\nthe existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire\nuniverse to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his\nobservations\nare\nbeliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no light between\nthem\nand\ntherefore no need to construct an argument for them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \n\nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it\n\"easier\"\nfor\nme; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me\n(and\nothers) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for\nnothing.\nI'm\nnot going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<8f1fa9a8c63bbcd6d2ae65009b1bc150.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't use any terms, you did. So I don't understand what is insane about my usage of terms that I didn't use in the first place. I just asked a straight question that you answered with another question in true \"master to apprentice\" fashion. Your friends must be proud.\n\n \n\nAs I said before this discussion for me ends here. We can just save ourselves (and others in this list) from more wasted time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am actually criticizing your use of terms, which I maintain is insane.\n\nThe fact that just about everybody else, not only atheists, uses terms in\na similar fashion to you is totally nuncupatory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:05:12 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nPedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders the existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and the\nentire universe to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his\nobservations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is no\nlight between them and therefore no need to construct an argument for\nthem.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it \"easier\"\nfor me; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me\n(and others) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for\nnothing. I'm not going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<363e3503d7f136761a71634b00ea6e78.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:15:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You say you don't use terms?\n\nThe discussion ends when it ends.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't use any terms, you did. So I don't understand what is insane\nabout my usage of terms that I didn't use in the first place. I just asked\na straight question that you answered with another question in true\n\"master to apprentice\" fashion. Your friends must be proud.\n\n\n\nAs I said before this discussion for me ends here. We can just save\nourselves (and others in this list) from more wasted time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am actually criticizing your use of terms, which I maintain is insane.\n\nThe fact that just about everybody else, not only atheists, uses terms\nin\na similar fashion to you is totally nuncupatory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue\nsuch\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he\ndefines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:05:12 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nPedro\n\nBrunians is not being evasive. Rather, as far as I can tell, he\nconsiders the existence of the natural world (as he defines it) and\nthe\nentire universe to be an argument for his beliefs; in short, his\nobservations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations. There is\nno\nlight between them and therefore no need to construct an argument for\nthem.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:41:17 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\nWhat!??!?!\n\n\n\nI'm not reading a book and demanding that the author makes it\n\"easier\"\nfor me; I'm asking for a straight answer from someone that accuses me\n(and others) of beying insane in an internet forum. But thanks for\nnothing. I'm not going to waste more time with this.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BD8F6.9040903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:20:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<363e3503d7f136761a71634b00ea6e78.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll take a stab and guess that the sane person sees the world as it is. \n\nOf course, the sane person actually sees the world as it best serves (or suits) him or her, but that's another question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:28:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\nWe are not talking about rationality.\n\nWe are talking about sanity.\n\nYou are behaving as if the two terms were identical.\n\nThey are not.\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWill no one attempt to answer this simple question?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BDA7E.1040905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:27:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BD8F6.9040903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it is. \n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural universe as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute unnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in forming an argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I misinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such views (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I appologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in short, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n \n\nOver and out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<783f2b629e952fe53af7d165d802b54e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:29:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BD8F6.9040903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally, willingly\nor no.\n\nThe sane person's version of the World more or less (note well) conforms\nwith the World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll take a stab and guess that the sane person sees the world as it is.\n\nOf course, the sane person actually sees the world as it best serves (or\nsuits) him or her, but that's another question.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:28:32 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\nWe are not talking about rationality.\n\nWe are talking about sanity.\n\nYou are behaving as if the two terms were identical.\n\nThey are not.\n\nWhat does the term 'sane' mean?\n\nWill no one attempt to answer this simple question?\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3cf3a72df238422ba64c9b1a7e540712.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:35:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BDA7E.1040905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see people who disagree with me as insane.\n\nOnce again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in forming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0445da3957caf84797db7f414628417b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<3cf3a72df238422ba64c9b1a7e540712.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Atheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\n don't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BDD69.807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:39:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<0445da3957caf84797db7f414628417b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well put." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:35 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <783f2b629e952fe53af7d165d802b54e.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nNo one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally, willingly\nor no.\n\nThe sane person's version of the World more or less (note well) conforms\nwith the World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll take a stab and guess that the sane person sees the world as it is.\n\nOf course, the sane person actually sees the world as it best serves (or\nsuits) him or her, but that's another question.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:44:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BDA7E.1040905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with everything you say, even though I don't share your world/religious views. Thanks for sharing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:27:26 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYes, it is. \n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural universe as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute unnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in forming an argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane. \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I misinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such views (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I appologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines it) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in short, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:46:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<0445da3957caf84797db7f414628417b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Latin root is \"sanus.\" I suspect that it and \"salus\" derive from a\ncommon P.I.E. root, as they were practically synonyms in ancient Rome.\n\"Sanus,\" in ancient Latin, had roughly the meaning of our phrase \"sound in\nmind and body.\"\n\nAtheism is a \"religion\" is what is meant by \"religion\" is a keystone or\nfoundational belief or set of beliefs, not subject to\nfalsification, enabling the mind to order and interpret the universe. Some\npeople like this definition of religion; to me it seems jury-rigged to\nincorporate secular metaphysical positions in order to artificially class\nthem as the same sort of thing as mystic or traditionally religious\nmetaphysical positions. I think the nature of the thing the believer\nbelieves about the universe is different enough in kind from the nature of\nthe thing the unbeliever believes about the universe to warrant separate\ncategories. But I also think it's a little misleading to suggest that the\nreligious believer and only the religious believer has, as it were, ultra\nvires views about the nature of the universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, wrote:\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\n don't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8b075b23caa3ac3dd3524568062b8dde.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BDD69.807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well put.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:35 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <783f2b629e952fe53af7d165d802b54e.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nNo one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally, willingly\nor no.\n\nThe sane person's version of the World more or less (note well) conforms\nwith the World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll take a stab and guess that the sane person sees the world as it\nis.\n\nOf course, the sane person actually sees the world as it best serves\n(or\nsuits) him or her, but that's another question.\n\n------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<783f2b629e952fe53af7d165d802b54e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:35 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nNo one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally, willingly\nor no." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sane person's version of the World more or less (note well) conforms\nwith the World." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAnd on who's authority do you know who is \"sane\" (that is, who's version of the World more or less conforms\nwith the World) and who isn't? Your own? The Bible? It's right here where it becomes pointless to discuss this issue.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<85f3b81d172775306d0a3745f1ad1fb2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:53:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me or him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with everything you say, even though I don't share your\nworld/religious views. Thanks for sharing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:27:26 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming an argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:55:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<85f3b81d172775306d0a3745f1ad1fb2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dstockhoff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:53:31 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nMe or him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with everything you say, even though I don't share your\nworld/religious views. Thanks for sharing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:27:26 -0400\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nYes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming an argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What does that SA- SAN- root mean?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Latin root is \"sanus.\" I suspect that it and \"salus\" derive from a\ncommon P.I.E. root, as they were practically synonyms in ancient Rome.\n\"Sanus,\" in ancient Latin, had roughly the meaning of our phrase \"sound in\nmind and body.\"\n\nAtheism is a \"religion\" is what is meant by \"religion\" is a keystone or\nfoundational belief or set of beliefs, not subject to\nfalsification, enabling the mind to order and interpret the universe.\nSome\npeople like this definition of religion; to me it seems jury-rigged to\nincorporate secular metaphysical positions in order to artificially class\nthem as the same sort of thing as mystic or traditionally religious\nmetaphysical positions. I think the nature of the thing the believer\nbelieves about the universe is different enough in kind from the nature of\nthe thing the unbeliever believes about the universe to warrant separate\ncategories. But I also think it's a little misleading to suggest that the\nreligious believer and only the religious believer has, as it were, ultra\nvires views about the nature of the universe.\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Atheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is\nnot\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\n don't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue\nsuch\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he\ndefines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are\nobservations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<056988767dcc6214832f5fc74374c5a7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:35 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nNo one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally,\nwillingly\nor no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The sane person's version of the World more or less (note well) conforms\nwith the World." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And on who's authority do you know who is \"sane\" (that is, who's version\nof the World more or less conforms\nwith the World) and who isn't? Your own? The Bible? It's right here where\nit becomes pointless to discuss this issue.\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BE180.2060107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:57:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<056988767dcc6214832f5fc74374c5a7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're playing fast and loose with accusations of playing fast and loose. \n\nYou said atheists are insane. Obviously, since I'm an atheist it means we disagree on that point.\n\nSo we disagree on God, and as a result you think I'm insane. You said this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:35:17 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BE1BC.8040708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T17:58:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BE180.2060107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably \"clean.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:37:33 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <0445da3957caf84797db7f414628417b.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:03:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<056988767dcc6214832f5fc74374c5a7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Glad we can agree on something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:56:38 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nGood.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:35 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nNo one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally,\nwillingly\nor no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The sane person's version of the World more or less (note well) conforms\nwith the World." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And on who's authority do you know who is \"sane\" (that is, who's version\nof the World more or less conforms\nwith the World) and who isn't? Your own? The Bible? It's right here where\nit becomes pointless to discuss this issue.\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<874114.14712.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<0445da3957caf84797db7f414628417b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If by \"radical,\" you mean to look at the term's etymology, it comes from Latin's sanus, or something like \"healthy.\" So when you say that atheists are insane, you *really* mean that they are not healthy or do not have a world view that allows them to have a healthy intellectual/emotional/spiritual (or some combination thereof) life.\n\nFine (although using the word \"sane\" doesn't clarify anything about what you think is \"unhealthy\" about atheism). And you've said you use the radical meaning primarily when you choose your terms. Again, fine. But it strikes me as lacking civility or even a simple willingness to be clearly understood when you use a term in a way that likely isn't shared by others. Insane, of course, to most people means \"crazy\" rather than \"not healthy.\" But it appears manipulative to put that out there when it seems designed to provoke a response and an argument. It's especially manipulative if you then act like a guru-on-the-mountain who asks patronizing questions about the meaning of words.\n\nWords have meanings, but they also have effects. The way you constantly address the meaning of words is fine, but you seem to either ignore the way they will be received by people who don't share your sense of \"radical\" words...or you do it to provoke people. I have no idea what your actual intention is, and I'm not making any guesses. But this does seem to be a pattern.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:37:33 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\ndon't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:10:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<874114.14712.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:03:52 -0700\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it strikes me as lacking civility or even a simple willingness to be clearly understood when you use a term in a way that likely isn't shared by others. Insane, of course, to most people means \"crazy\" rather than \"not healthy.\" But it appears manipulative to put that out there when it seems designed to provoke a response and an argument. It's especially manipulative if you then act like a guru-on-the-mountain who asks patronizing questions about the meaning of words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Words have meanings, but they also have effects. The way you constantly address the meaning of words is fine, but you seem to either ignore the way they will be received by people who don't share your sense of \"radical\" words...or you do it to provoke people. I have no idea what your actual intention is, and I'm not making any guesses. But this does seem to be a pattern.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:37:33 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\ndon't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he defines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BE7B5.7090004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:23:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John\n\nI'm curious about those \"ultra vires views.\" Do you have an example in mind?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:46:05 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe Latin root is \"sanus.\" I suspect that it and \"salus\" derive from a\ncommon P.I.E. root, as they were practically synonyms in ancient Rome.\n\"Sanus,\" in ancient Latin, had roughly the meaning of our phrase \"sound in\nmind and body.\"\n\nAtheism is a \"religion\" is what is meant by \"religion\" is a keystone or\nfoundational belief or set of beliefs, not subject to\nfalsification, enabling the mind to order and interpret the universe. Some\npeople like this definition of religion; to me it seems jury-rigged to\nincorporate secular metaphysical positions in order to artificially class\nthem as the same sort of thing as mystic or traditionally religious\nmetaphysical positions. I think the nature of the thing the believer\nbelieves about the universe is different enough in kind from the nature of\nthe thing the unbeliever believes about the universe to warrant separate\ncategories. But I also think it's a little misleading to suggest that the\nreligious believer and only the religious believer has, as it were, ultra\nvires views about the nature of the universe.\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, wrote:" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:30:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BE7B5.7090004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, just the one. Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity. Pure reason cannot lead to the conclusion that no such being\nexists--at the very best it leads to the conclusion that we can't be sure\nwhether such a being exists or not. Any opinion beyond that is, in a sense,\nbeyond the purview of pure reason.\n\nThere are probably many atheists with other views that I might consider\n\"ultra vires,\" but you guys don't exactly have a creed, so I'd rather not\nlump you together. And to tell the truth I don't really want to be\nembroiled in a religious controversy here--my point is that I think the\nrhetorical strategy of some theists to class \"atheism\" as a \"religion\"\nitself is of limited value, but that I find the rhetorical strategy of some\natheists to class \"religion\" as a special kind of unwarranted belief about\nthe universe is a question-begging exercise. Theists don't believe that the\nviews of atheists are warranted; if they did, they'd be atheists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 2:23 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nJohn\n\nI'm curious about those \"ultra vires views.\" Do you have an example in\nmind?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:46:05 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \n\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n \n\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe Latin root is \"sanus.\" I suspect that it and \"salus\" derive from a\ncommon P.I.E. root, as they were practically synonyms in ancient Rome.\n\"Sanus,\" in ancient Latin, had roughly the meaning of our phrase \"sound in\nmind and body.\"\n\nAtheism is a \"religion\" is what is meant by \"religion\" is a keystone or\nfoundational belief or set of beliefs, not subject to\nfalsification, enabling the mind to order and interpret the universe. Some\npeople like this definition of religion; to me it seems jury-rigged to\nincorporate secular metaphysical positions in order to artificially class\nthem as the same sort of thing as mystic or traditionally religious\nmetaphysical positions. I think the nature of the thing the believer\nbelieves about the universe is different enough in kind from the nature of\nthe thing the unbeliever believes about the universe to warrant separate\ncategories. But I also think it's a little misleading to suggest that the\nreligious believer and only the religious believer has, as it were, ultra\nvires views about the nature of the universe.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, wrote:\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:51:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BE180.2060107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what do I mean by insane and what do you mean by accusation?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're playing fast and loose with accusations of playing fast and loose.\n\nYou said atheists are insane. Obviously, since I'm an atheist it means we\ndisagree on that point.\n\nSo we disagree on God, and as a result you think I'm insane. You said\nthis.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:35:17 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<692aab39c8b2f2ac613dfc763ef29f46.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:51:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BE180.2060107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what do I mean by insane and what do you mean by accusation?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're playing fast and loose with accusations of playing fast and loose.\n\nYou said atheists are insane. Obviously, since I'm an atheist it means we\ndisagree on that point.\n\nSo we disagree on God, and as a result you think I'm insane. You said\nthis.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:35:17 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3d2cde63a99259cdecf0c73fb44feb90.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:54:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BE1BC.8040708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's part of it.\n\nI think it relates to the Sun.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably \"clean.\"\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:37:33 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <0445da3957caf84797db7f414628417b.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:55:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We'd agree on a lot more if you'd get out of your own way.\n\nThere is no God where I are.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Glad we can agree on something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:56:38 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nGood.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:35 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nNo one sees the World.\n\nEveryone sees an image of the World which they build internally,\nwillingly\nor no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The sane person's version of the World more or less (note well)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "conforms\nwith the World." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And on who's authority do you know who is \"sane\" (that is, who's\nversion\nof the World more or less conforms\nwith the World) and who isn't? Your own? The Bible? It's right here\nwhere\nit becomes pointless to discuss this issue.\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.\nhttps://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<874114.14712.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is off to the side.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If by \"radical,\" you mean to look at the term's etymology, it comes from\nLatin's sanus, or something like \"healthy.\" So when you say that atheists\nare insane, you *really* mean that they are not healthy or do not have a\nworld view that allows them to have a healthy\nintellectual/emotional/spiritual (or some combination thereof) life.\n\nFine (although using the word \"sane\" doesn't clarify anything about what\nyou think is \"unhealthy\" about atheism). And you've said you use the\nradical meaning primarily when you choose your terms. Again, fine. But it\nstrikes me as lacking civility or even a simple willingness to be clearly\nunderstood when you use a term in a way that likely isn't shared by\nothers. Insane, of course, to most people means \"crazy\" rather than \"not\nhealthy.\" But it appears manipulative to put that out there when it seems\ndesigned to provoke a response and an argument. It's especially\nmanipulative if you then act like a guru-on-the-mountain who asks\npatronizing questions about the meaning of words.\n\nWords have meanings, but they also have effects. The way you constantly\naddress the meaning of words is fine, but you seem to either ignore the\nway they will be received by people who don't share your sense of\n\"radical\" words...or you do it to provoke people. I have no idea what your\nactual intention is, and I'm not making any guesses. But this does seem to\nbe a pattern.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:37:33 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is not\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\ndon't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue such\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he\ndefines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are observations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:56:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I lack civility?\n\nI can live with that.\n\nI'm not really a civilian.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:03:52 -0700\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it strikes me as lacking civility or even a simple willingness to be\nclearly understood when you use a term in a way that likely isn't shared\nby others. Insane, of course, to most people means \"crazy\" rather than\n\"not healthy.\" But it appears manipulative to put that out there when it\nseems designed to provoke a response and an argument. It's especially\nmanipulative if you then act like a guru-on-the-mountain who asks\npatronizing questions about the meaning of words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Words have meanings, but they also have effects. The way you constantly\naddress the meaning of words is fine, but you seem to either ignore the\nway they will be received by people who don't share your sense of\n\"radical\" words...or you do it to provoke people. I have no idea what\nyour actual intention is, and I'm not making any guesses. But this does\nseem to be a pattern.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:37:33 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is\nnot\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\ndon't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue\nsuch\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he\ndefines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are\nobservations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<81dd0e8b7ebb49c80730892e01e8b4db.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:56:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I lack civility?\n\nI can live with that.\n\nI'm not really a civilian.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:03:52 -0700\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it strikes me as lacking civility or even a simple willingness to be\nclearly understood when you use a term in a way that likely isn't shared\nby others. Insane, of course, to most people means \"crazy\" rather than\n\"not healthy.\" But it appears manipulative to put that out there when it\nseems designed to provoke a response and an argument. It's especially\nmanipulative if you then act like a guru-on-the-mountain who asks\npatronizing questions about the meaning of words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Words have meanings, but they also have effects. The way you constantly\naddress the meaning of words is fine, but you seem to either ignore the\nway they will be received by people who don't share your sense of\n\"radical\" words...or you do it to provoke people. I have no idea what\nyour actual intention is, and I'm not making any guesses. But this does\nseem to be a pattern.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:37:33 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\nAtheism is just another religion.\n\nYou are required, if you adhere to this religion, to insist that it is\nnot\na religion.\n\nNow.\n\nWhat does the term sane mean?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term sane?\n\n.\n\n\ndon't see people who disagree with me as insane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Once again you play fast and loose with terms.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes, it is.\n\nAnd in a sense I agree with Brunians, because I too see the natural\nuniverse as screaming evidence of something---in my case the absolute\nunnecessariness of a anthropomorphized deity---and see no point in\nforming\nan argument connecting them. It just is.\n\nHowever, I don't see people who disagree with that as insane.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:02:58 +0300\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nFair enough. Guess I missed the memo on Brunians' views and I\nmisinterpreted him. However it is in my opinion pointless to argue\nsuch\nviews (or at least I have no interest in arguing those and for that I\nappologise to Brunians) when one takes \"the natural world (as he\ndefines\nit) and the entire universe to be an argument for his beliefs and in\nshort, his observations are beliefs and his beliefs are\nobservations\".\n\n\n\nOver and out.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4e0caeead02c173640a6c6916567131c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:58:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BE7B5.7090004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John, I am seriously well impressed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John\n\nI'm curious about those \"ultra vires views.\" Do you have an example in\nmind?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:46:05 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe Latin root is \"sanus.\" I suspect that it and \"salus\" derive from a\ncommon P.I.E. root, as they were practically synonyms in ancient Rome.\n\"Sanus,\" in ancient Latin, had roughly the meaning of our phrase \"sound in\nmind and body.\"\n\nAtheism is a \"religion\" is what is meant by \"religion\" is a keystone or\nfoundational belief or set of beliefs, not subject to\nfalsification, enabling the mind to order and interpret the universe.\nSome\npeople like this definition of religion; to me it seems jury-rigged to\nincorporate secular metaphysical positions in order to artificially class\nthem as the same sort of thing as mystic or traditionally religious\nmetaphysical positions. I think the nature of the thing the believer\nbelieves about the universe is different enough in kind from the nature of\nthe thing the unbeliever believes about the universe to warrant separate\ncategories. But I also think it's a little misleading to suggest that the\nreligious believer and only the religious believer has, as it were, ultra\nvires views about the nature of the universe.\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, wrote:\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BF438.60306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T19:17:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4e0caeead02c173640a6c6916567131c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I completely agree. Sometimes I think one could separate \"principled\" or organized atheism from unthinking atheism, but then there is probably too little of either to bother with. To me, anyone who insists on atheism is indulging in belief, not reason. Unfortunately, such people tend to represent us to the world at large.\n\nAt any rate, there is also deism, which, in proving that atheism and religion can coexist, also indicates that they are different domains. There is simply no point is trying to settle either question; we see the world as it serves us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:30:36 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWell, just the one. Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity. Pure reason cannot lead to the conclusion that no such being\nexists--at the very best it leads to the conclusion that we can't be sure\nwhether such a being exists or not. Any opinion beyond that is, in a sense,\nbeyond the purview of pure reason.\n\nThere are probably many atheists with other views that I might consider\n\"ultra vires,\" but you guys don't exactly have a creed, so I'd rather not\nlump you together. And to tell the truth I don't really want to be\nembroiled in a religious controversy here--my point is that I think the\nrhetorical strategy of some theists to class \"atheism\" as a \"religion\"\nitself is of limited value, but that I find the rhetorical strategy of some\natheists to class \"religion\" as a special kind of unwarranted belief about\nthe universe is a question-begging exercise. Theists don't believe that the\nviews of atheists are warranted; if they did, they'd be atheists." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T19:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BF438.60306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a pretty interesting discussion.\n\nAnd it would never have happened if I had not unfairly ACCUSED all\natheists of being insane.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I completely agree. Sometimes I think one could separate \"principled\" or\norganized atheism from unthinking atheism, but then there is probably too\nlittle of either to bother with. To me, anyone who insists on atheism is\nindulging in belief, not reason. Unfortunately, such people tend to\nrepresent us to the world at large.\n\nAt any rate, there is also deism, which, in proving that atheism and\nreligion can coexist, also indicates that they are different domains.\nThere is simply no point is trying to settle either question; we see the\nworld as it serves us.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:30:36 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWell, just the one. Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity. Pure reason cannot lead to the conclusion that no such being\nexists--at the very best it leads to the conclusion that we can't be sure\nwhether such a being exists or not. Any opinion beyond that is, in a\nsense,\nbeyond the purview of pure reason.\n\nThere are probably many atheists with other views that I might consider\n\"ultra vires,\" but you guys don't exactly have a creed, so I'd rather not\nlump you together. And to tell the truth I don't really want to be\nembroiled in a religious controversy here--my point is that I think the\nrhetorical strategy of some theists to class \"atheism\" as a \"religion\"\nitself is of limited value, but that I find the rhetorical strategy of\nsome\natheists to class \"religion\" as a special kind of unwarranted belief about\nthe universe is a question-begging exercise. Theists don't believe that\nthe\nviews of atheists are warranted; if they did, they'd be atheists.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:07:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nAtheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no. Atheists by definition reject *belief* in the existence of a\ndeity. Not the same thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:09:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that I accept that...there's a word for the position of\nrejecting belief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a divinity\nexists, and that word is \"agnosticism.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, no. Atheists by definition reject *belief* in the existence of a\ndeity. Not the same thing.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<110579.43861.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:12:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm one who felt betrayed by /TLtW&tW/, and as David Stockhoff said, timing was important. I read all the Narnia books eagerly when I was seven. When I was maybe 10 or 12, I learned the story of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice, and at some point I connected that with Aslan (and the end of /TVotDT/). So Lewis had tried to trick me! These books I was attached to were a covert attempt to advertise that religion that besieged me and my family, that continually tried to blandish and harangue and peer-press and maybe, under the surface, even threaten me into submission. It was an unpleasant moment.\n\n(This was in the early or mid '70s, by the way, a time when American Christians may have felt equally besieged.)\n\nIt was just a moment, though. I soon learned to see Christianity in fiction as an appealing fantasy, and I could enjoy it in the Narnia books and the Space Trilogy and many other books. In /Crime and Punishment/ and /War and Peace/ I may have sighed \"This again\" when I got to the Christian message, but no more than that. Otherwise it was in the same category as the Greek and Norse myths that I read when I was little, or Robertson Davies's Jungianism and Ursula Le Guin's attempt at an indigenous belief system in /Always Coming Home/.\n\nI went through a Rand phase around my last year or two of high school. I don't mind preaching if it's done in a way I can enjoy.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C03B6.60601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:23:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<110579.43861.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That thought occurred to me but I sidestepped it. \n\nTony's understanding is closer to mine. Agnosticism has always struck me as atheism within a theistic context, as one might refer to a disease within a clinical context. If a priest turns atheist, he doesn't join a Unitarian church---he just nurses his doubts. Within that context it is ideologically impossible to conceive of true atheism, or even to use the word politely. In a word, it is a euphemism.\n\nBut that's just a hunch. I suppose what I do is more like \"rejecting belief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a divinity exists, and continuing as though the possibility does not in fact exist.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:09:17 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI don't know that I accept that...there's a word for the position of\nrejecting belief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a divinity\nexists, and that word is \"agnosticism.\"\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n\nWell, no. Atheists by definition reject *belief* in the existence of a\ndeity. Not the same thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C046A.1090805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:26:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C03B6.60601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to try calling people insane and seeing what interesting things shake out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:20:11 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThis is a pretty interesting discussion.\n\nAnd it would never have happened if I had not unfairly ACCUSED all\natheists of being insane.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:30:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is the meaning of the term 'belief'?\n\nWhat is the radical meaning of the term 'belief'?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, no. Atheists by definition reject *belief* in the existence of a\ndeity. Not the same thing.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74b8431cb86cd8c9c7e48333c0865b61.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agnostic means you don't know.\n\nIt's not necessary to break it down further.\n\nIt is, in fact, confusing.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know that I accept that...there's a word for the position of\nrejecting belief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a\ndivinity\nexists, and that word is \"agnosticism.\"\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Tony Ellis\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Atheists by definition reject the existence of a\ndeity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, no. Atheists by definition reject *belief* in the existence of a\ndeity. Not the same thing.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:33:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<110579.43861.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shver tzan a yid, bubbeleh.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm one who felt betrayed by /TLtW&tW/, and as David Stockhoff said,\ntiming was important. I read all the Narnia books eagerly when I was\nseven. When I was maybe 10 or 12, I learned the story of Jesus'\nredemptive sacrifice, and at some point I connected that with Aslan (and\nthe end of /TVotDT/). So Lewis had tried to trick me! These books I was\nattached to were a covert attempt to advertise that religion that besieged\nme and my family, that continually tried to blandish and harangue and\npeer-press and maybe, under the surface, even threaten me into submission.\n It was an unpleasant moment.\n\n(This was in the early or mid '70s, by the way, a time when American\nChristians may have felt equally besieged.)\n\nIt was just a moment, though. I soon learned to see Christianity in\nfiction as an appealing fantasy, and I could enjoy it in the Narnia books\nand the Space Trilogy and many other books. In /Crime and Punishment/ and\n/War and Peace/ I may have sighed \"This again\" when I got to the Christian\nmessage, but no more than that. Otherwise it was in the same category as\nthe Greek and Norse myths that I read when I was little, or Robertson\nDavies's Jungianism and Ursula Le Guin's attempt at an indigenous belief\nsystem in /Always Coming Home/.\n\nI went through a Rand phase around my last year or two of high school. I\ndon't mind preaching if it's done in a way I can enjoy.\n\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, June 5, 2010 6:01:27 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\n\n\nDo people feel similarly betrayed by Doestoevsky?\n\nAgain, I find it bizarre. I can't imagine thinking to myself \"How dare\nAuthor X have different views than me!\" I can imagine thinking \"Well, I\ndon't choose to spend time on this,\" but not a sense of betrayal per se.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 7:58 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\n\nThe comparison is a personally interesting one. Perhaps the difference is\nlargely one of timing. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Lewis; I\nencountered Narnia not long after Middle-Earth, around second and third\ngrade." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe I discovered much later, and while I'm still waiting for the Great\nAtheist Novel, I don't feel betrayed at all. And Rand was clearly insane\nfrom the beginning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:53:02 -0400\n\n\nFrom: John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9ad66087a3d8374e7b83bdb6f7869d53.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:36:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C03B6.60601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An agnostic reserves his opinion.\n\nHe does not know.\n\nThis is a rational position.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nIf a person has not had experience to convince him of the existence of\nGod, it is not rational for him to believe in God.\n\nThis is true.\n\nNeither is it rational for him to not believe.\n\nThis is the point in the discussion at which atheists prove, to their own\nsatisfaction, that they have no nose.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That thought occurred to me but I sidestepped it.\n\nTony's understanding is closer to mine. Agnosticism has always struck me\nas atheism within a theistic context, as one might refer to a disease\nwithin a clinical context. If a priest turns atheist, he doesn't join a\nUnitarian church---he just nurses his doubts. Within that context it is\nideologically impossible to conceive of true atheism, or even to use the\nword politely. In a word, it is a euphemism.\n\nBut that's just a hunch. I suppose what I do is more like \"rejecting\nbelief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a divinity exists,\nand continuing as though the possibility does not in fact exist.\"\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:09:17 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:37:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C046A.1090805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I get away with this in person too.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm going to try calling people insane and seeing what interesting things\nshake out.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:20:11 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThis is a pretty interesting discussion.\n\nAnd it would never have happened if I had not unfairly ACCUSED all\natheists of being insane.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:41:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have lots of experience in internet disputes. And I've met some of my\ninterlocutors in person.\n\nMy guess is that in person, you, brunians, come across as very friendly and\nmaybe a little eccentric.\n\nSome of this can be lost electronically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:37 PM, wrote:\nI get away with this in person too.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm going to try calling people insane and seeing what interesting things\nshake out.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:20:11 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThis is a pretty interesting discussion.\n\nAnd it would never have happened if I had not unfairly ACCUSED all\natheists of being insane.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C0937.9050909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By this definition, then, I'm an agnostic. Though a hard-NOSED one.\n\nI could say, I don't know, YET, and ... \n\nI BELIEVE I never will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:36:38 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <9ad66087a3d8374e7b83bdb6f7869d53.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAn agnostic reserves his opinion.\n\nHe does not know.\n\nThis is a rational position.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nIf a person has not had experience to convince him of the existence of\nGod, it is not rational for him to believe in God.\n\nThis is true.\n\nNeither is it rational for him to not believe.\n\nThis is the point in the discussion at which atheists prove, to their own\nsatisfaction, that they have no nose.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C0961.3080301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T20:47:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C0937.9050909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll bet you do.\n\nIs this called a Brunian dialectic?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:37:16 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI get away with this in person too.\n\n.\n\n\n\nI'm going to try calling people insane and seeing what interesting things\nshake out.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T21:14:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C0961.3080301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI don't know that I accept that...there's a word for the position of\nrejecting belief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a divinity\nexists, and that word is \"agnosticism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agnosticism is the word for being without *knowledge* of divinity. It\nis not a rejection of belief.\n\nI am agnostic about whether ancient civilisations were contacted by\naliens. I have to be: I wasn't there. But, separately to that, I don't\nbelieve that it happened, because the alternative arguments are more\nconvincing to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<02f084f24146cb016dd65ee0ec79a416.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T22:23:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am friendly and somewhat eccentric.\n\nI am also built like a neanderthal man.\n\nPicture attached.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have lots of experience in internet disputes. And I've met some of my\ninterlocutors in person.\n\nMy guess is that in person, you, brunians, come across as very friendly\nand\nmaybe a little eccentric.\n\nSome of this can be lost electronically.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:37 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I get away with this in person too.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm going to try calling people insane and seeing what interesting\nthings\nshake out.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:20:11 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26b37e881aa34ddc988f037809db3812.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T22:24:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C0937.9050909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Belief is error.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By this definition, then, I'm an agnostic. Though a hard-NOSED one.\n\nI could say, I don't know, YET, and ...\n\nI BELIEVE I never will.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:36:38 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <9ad66087a3d8374e7b83bdb6f7869d53.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAn agnostic reserves his opinion.\n\nHe does not know.\n\nThis is a rational position.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nIf a person has not had experience to convince him of the existence of\nGod, it is not rational for him to believe in God.\n\nThis is true.\n\nNeither is it rational for him to not believe.\n\nThis is the point in the discussion at which atheists prove, to their own\nsatisfaction, that they have no nose.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7005ff26b0a0088009df210245c65a13.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T22:24:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C0961.3080301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is now.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll bet you do.\n\nIs this called a Brunian dialectic?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:37:16 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI get away with this in person too.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm going to try calling people insane and seeing what interesting\nthings\nshake out.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9e4c40a3269dfbce8d73539d8d695fa6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T22:29:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know that I accept that...there's a word for the position of\nrejecting belief in a divinity but accepting the possibility that a\ndivinity\nexists, and that word is \"agnosticism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agnosticism is the word for being without *knowledge* of divinity. It\nis not a rejection of belief.\n\nI am agnostic about whether ancient civilisations were contacted by\naliens. I have to be: I wasn't there. But, separately to that, I don't\nbelieve that it happened, because the alternative arguments are more\nconvincing to me.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-06-06T23:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, John Watkins wrote:\nPersonally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re LWW, my opinion of it did fall when rereading when older, and seeing \n\"through\" the plot. By contrast, I was able to read _The Pilgrim's \nProgress_ ignoring any allegorical content ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions, who\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far preachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed similar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I quite like the concept that great art needs to have some kind of \nunderlying complex system of ideas, but that those ideas don't have to be \nright to make the artwork successful. I am quite willing to suspend \ndisbelief (in every sense of the word), if the story works qua story. So \nI put up with FTL travel, even though it clashes with my religous beliefs.\n\nI think my problem (and that of Gaiman, Pullman etc) with LWW is the \nfeeling that the setup is too setup: it feels clumsy/arbitrary and so \ncan't carry all the emotional weight. The ending of _The Last Battle_ is \nmore successful, I think.\n\nJust another 2c, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C3D9C.4000106@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T00:30:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<009b01cb0535$75580760$9ace4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Roy, however I'm still wondering a little, because of the \nfrequently stressed similarity in terms of materials between the City \nWall and the Citadel wall. While the City Wall is obviously a great deal \nmore sophisticated than that of the Citadel (the City Wall is large \nenough to contain barracks for both human and alien soldiers, weapons \nemplacements, and presumably much more besides - it seems to be a 'city' \nof sorts in itself) the *materials* of which these walls are composed \nare very similar and must have been constructed using similar levels of \ntechnology.\n\nAnd the City Wall of Nessus is incontestably far far to the North \n(Severian's north :) ) of the Citadel, at Severian's time - yet the \ntechnology to build such a structure has not existed for millennia, \nindeed given the (apparent?) comparative levels of technology displayed, \nthe City Wall could as well have been built *before* the wall of the \nCitadel as after.\n\nI guess the question is whether you believe the curtain wall of the \nCitadel represents an earlier version of the extreme high tech that \nbuild the Wall of Nessus, or whether the Citadel wall is a decadent \nversion of the City Wall, built in the same unsmeltable metal but with a \nlower level of sophistication.\n\nregards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/06/10 06:02, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJane Delawney wrote:\n[snip]\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway - I finally remembered the other place (well actually one of the\nothers, but this is the most immediate one) where my vague recollection\nof a sense of north/south 'wrongness' came from.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nessus started out on the Gyoll on or near the southwest coast of the\ncontinent. As the river became polluted, the city kept growing upstream, in\na generally northern direction. At some point, the rulers built the Citadel\nto the north of the city as it then existed. Over many years, the living\ncity grew and caught up with the Citadel, then grew beyond it, so that by\nthe time Sev was born the Citadel was near the southern edge of the\ninhabited portion of the city.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C43BE.7030504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T00:56:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C3D9C.4000106@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 7:30 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nThanks Roy, however I'm still wondering a little, because of the\nfrequently stressed similarity in terms of materials between the City\nWall and the Citadel wall. While the City Wall is obviously a great deal\nmore sophisticated than that of the Citadel (the City Wall is large\nenough to contain barracks for both human and alien soldiers, weapons\nemplacements, and presumably much more besides - it seems to be a 'city'\nof sorts in itself) the *materials* of which these walls are composed\nare very similar and must have been constructed using similar levels of\ntechnology.\n\nAnd the City Wall of Nessus is incontestably far far to the North\n(Severian's north :) ) of the Citadel, at Severian's time - yet the\ntechnology to build such a structure has not existed for millennia,\nindeed given the (apparent?) comparative levels of technology displayed,\nthe City Wall could as well have been built *before* the wall of the\nCitadel as after.\n\nI guess the question is whether you believe the curtain wall of the\nCitadel represents an earlier version of the extreme high tech that\nbuild the Wall of Nessus, or whether the Citadel wall is a decadent\nversion of the City Wall, built in the same unsmeltable metal but with a\nlower level of sophistication." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's the technology so much as the shrunken labor and \ntalent pool. There are gobs of still operable technology sitting around, \nbut it's been at least millenia since there were enough people to \nsupervise it all. Doubtless all the \"secrets\" are somewhere in the \nlibrary, but nowhere near enough librarians to sort out the bits to \nparley or bootstrap the useful bits into making more useful again." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C447F.60702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T00:59:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 6:15 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Sat, 5 Jun 2010, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Personally I find the \"betrayal\" narrative bizarre whenever I hear it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re LWW, my opinion of it did fall when rereading when older, and seeing\n\"through\" the plot. By contrast, I was able to read _The Pilgrim's\nProgress_ ignoring any allegorical content ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know countless people, many of liberal predispositions, who\nhave read and allegedly enjoyed The Fountainhead--and Rand is far\npreachier\nthan Lewis, Wolfe, or even Card. And Neil Gaiman has written about his\nfeelings of betrayal as to Lewis's religiousity, but never expressed\nsimilar\nfeelings toward, for example, Kipling's imperialism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I quite like the concept that great art needs to have some kind of\nunderlying complex system of ideas, but that those ideas don't have to\nbe right to make the artwork successful. I am quite willing to suspend\ndisbelief (in every sense of the word), if the story works qua story. So\nI put up with FTL travel, even though it clashes with my religous beliefs.\n\nI think my problem (and that of Gaiman, Pullman etc) with LWW is the\nfeeling that the setup is too setup: it feels clumsy/arbitrary and so\ncan't carry all the emotional weight. The ending of _The Last Battle_ is\nmore successful, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you feel about VeggieTales?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C46DC.2020508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:09:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C447F.60702@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. LIFE is error." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:24:01 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: <26b37e881aa34ddc988f037809db3812.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nBelief is error.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By this definition, then, I'm an agnostic. Though a hard-NOSED one.\n\nI could say, I don't know, YET, and ...\n\nI BELIEVE I never will.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:36:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C46DC.2020508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that the basic difference between atheists and most other people\nis that atheists think that things happen all random like.\n\nThe default point of view seems to be that the World is planned and\ndirected in some way.\n\nIt's not always God who plans and directs it.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed in some kind of benign way.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed by the same agents.\n\nThere's two possible points of view: that the World is random, like, and\nthings happen for no particular reason, or that things are in some way\nplanned and directed.\n\nI would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in nature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of the\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?\n\nEverybody else?\n\nOnly you know the truth?\n\nThis sounds really a lot like a religion, and not a gentle one.\n\n.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. LIFE is error.\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:24:01 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-06-07T02:02:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C447F.60702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHow do you feel about VeggieTales?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too abstruse for me....\n\nGoogles...I couldn't possibly comment ;)\n\nCheers, David." } ] }, { "message_id": "<006901cb0606$65730bc0$90cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-07T05:57:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C3D9C.4000106@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\nThanks Roy, however I'm still wondering a little, because of the\nfrequently stressed similarity in terms of materials between the City\nWall and the Citadel wall. While the City Wall is obviously a great deal\nmore sophisticated than that of the Citadel (the City Wall is large\nenough to contain barracks for both human and alien soldiers, weapons\nemplacements, and presumably much more besides - it seems to be a 'city'\nof sorts in itself) the *materials* of which these walls are composed\nare very similar and must have been constructed using similar levels of\ntechnology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the City Wall of Nessus is incontestably far far to the North\n(Severian's north :) ) of the Citadel, at Severian's time - yet the\ntechnology to build such a structure has not existed for millennia,\nindeed given the (apparent?) comparative levels of technology displayed,\nthe City Wall could as well have been built *before* the wall of the\nCitadel as after." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The City Wall seems to be circular and there are at least two southern\ngates, Sorrowing and Praise (SHADOW, chap. XXXV). The Citadel is at or near\nthe center of the city (ibid.) as circumscribed by the City Wall. The area\ninside the City Wall includes large undeveloped tracts of land in the\nnorthern section, as well as vast uninhabited ruins in the southern\nsections." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess the question is whether you believe the curtain wall of the\nCitadel represents an earlier version of the extreme high tech that\nbuild the Wall of Nessus, or whether the Citadel wall is a decadent\nversion of the City Wall, built in the same unsmeltable metal but with a\nlower level of sophistication." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Curtain Wall around the Citadel didn't need to be as big or\nsophisticated as the City Wall. The purpose of the Curtain Wall (according\nto Cyriaca's tale) was to safeguard the writings that became Ultan's\nLibrary. Her tale also implies that the City Wall and the curtain wall date\nfrom the same period. That is, \"Their spoil was gathered into a great heap\nin the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\" She goes\non to say that the cache of books was enclosed by a curtain wall when the\nruler changed his mind about burning the books. That ruler had planned to\nretire behind the curtain wall if his dreams of a \"new empire\" (as distinct\nfrom the \"first empire\") should fail (SWORD, chap. VI ).\n\nThe implication, of course, is that Typhon was that ruler, though he died\nalone on his mountain. So, yes, if Cyriaca is to be believed, the walls are\nthe same age.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0CE9B7.1080307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-07T12:44:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a number of weak assumptions there. First, that randomness does not itself lead to order; second, that there are always only two choices; third, that nature and \"naturalness\" are simple, when they are demonstrably not.\n\nFourth, that atheism is not in fact found everywhere in nature. The thrushes in the woods behind my house did not take a day of rest yesterday (unless of course their calls are to be considered prayers and not communications regarding territory and mating; but no one has proposed or proven that).\n\nFinally, no one has mentioned delusions; perhaps they appear as part of your worldview, but not mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 21:36:23 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI think that the basic difference between atheists and most other people\nis that atheists think that things happen all random like.\n\nThe default point of view seems to be that the World is planned and\ndirected in some way.\n\nIt's not always God who plans and directs it.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed in some kind of benign way.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed by the same agents.\n\nThere's two possible points of view: that the World is random, like, and\nthings happen for no particular reason, or that things are in some way\nplanned and directed.\n\nI would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in nature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of the\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?\n\nEverybody else?\n\nOnly you know the truth?\n\nThis sounds really a lot like a religion, and not a gentle one.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3715161A8A7445C39710E7E09E1FA66C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T12:48:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<110579.43861.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had a similar experience in Ireland at a similar age. I had enjoyed the Narnia books until I got to the _The Last Battle_ where the Christian allegory was hammered home. I felt betrayed, not just by the message, but by its totalitarian import - the expected future lives of the children on Earth were not just aborted but rendered insignificant by the religious context.\n\nMaybe it was especially unsettling as I was a child myself.\n\nI don't think I've had the same feeling about any other novel/series - but then again I probably wouldn't have it about the Narnia books if I encountered them now.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jerry Friedman \n\n\n I'm one who felt betrayed by /TLtW&tW/, and as David Stockhoff said, timing was important. I read all the Narnia books eagerly when I was seven. When I was maybe 10 or 12, I learned the story of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice, and at some point I connected that with Aslan (and the end of /TVotDT/). So Lewis had tried to trick me! These books I was attached to were a covert attempt to advertise that religion that besieged me and my family, that continually tried to blandish and harangue and peer-press and maybe, under the surface, even threaten me into submission. It was an unpleasant moment." } ] }, { "message_id": "<19DCBA6D415D49BC8A4DE469A1C445DD@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T12:52:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<9ad66087a3d8374e7b83bdb6f7869d53.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nAn agnostic reserves his opinion.\n\nHe does not know.\n\nThis is a rational position.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nIf a person has not had experience to convince him of the existence of\nGod, it is not rational for him to believe in God.\n\nThis is true.\n\nNeither is it rational for him to not believe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have never been to Australia, or to Brobdingnag. Nevertheless I have \nopinions about whether they exist. Strangely enough, these opinions are \ndifferent. Do you think I am being inconsistent?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:01:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nI would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in \nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of the\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is everyone who doesn't believe in the fairies deluded? Or everyone who \ndoesn't believe in the mountains?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:02:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<006901cb0606$65730bc0$90cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n\nThe Curtain Wall around the Citadel didn't need to be as big or\nsophisticated as the City Wall. The purpose of the Curtain Wall (according\nto Cyriaca's tale) was to safeguard the writings that became Ultan's\nLibrary. Her tale also implies that the City Wall and the curtain wall date\nfrom the same period. That is, \"Their spoil was gathered into a great heap\nin the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\" She goes\non to say that the cache of books was enclosed by a curtain wall when the\nruler changed his mind about burning the books. That ruler had planned to\nretire behind the curtain wall if his dreams of a \"new empire\" (as distinct\nfrom the \"first empire\") should fail (SWORD, chap. VI ).\n\nThe implication, of course, is that Typhon was that ruler, though he died\nalone on his mountain. So, yes, if Cyriaca is to be believed, the walls are\nthe same age." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't you think \"newly built\" here may not be not reliable? From the point\nof view of a future fable, events in the past can easily be seen as\nhappening in the same \"long ago\", even if separated by many years. I\ncertainly get the sense from Short Sun that Nessus was an established city\nat the time of Typhon - unless we are to think of Roger as a recent\nimmigrant to the place. Typhon himself calls the place Nessus in BotNS, but\nwe are told elsewhere (can't remember where) that it had an earlier name.\n\nBut whatever, has anybody ever come up with a good story about why he or\nsomebody else built such an extensive wall, enclosing so much undeveloped\nland? Even for a megalomaniac ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:02:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0CE9B7.1080307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If randomness leads to order, then randomness is what you call what most\npeople call God.\n\nThere are always only two and only two choices: the one you choose and all\nthe other ones.\n\nIf you look at the World analytically, it is complicated.\n\nIf you look at the World synthetically, it is reasonably straightforward.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a number of weak assumptions there. First, that randomness does\nnot itself lead to order; second, that there are always only two choices;\nthird, that nature and \"naturalness\" are simple, when they are\ndemonstrably not.\n\nFourth, that atheism is not in fact found everywhere in nature. The\nthrushes in the woods behind my house did not take a day of rest yesterday\n(unless of course their calls are to be considered prayers and not\ncommunications regarding territory and mating; but no one has proposed or\nproven that).\n\nFinally, no one has mentioned delusions; perhaps they appear as part of\nyour worldview, but not mine.\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 21:36:23 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI think that the basic difference between atheists and most other people\nis that atheists think that things happen all random like.\n\nThe default point of view seems to be that the World is planned and\ndirected in some way.\n\nIt's not always God who plans and directs it.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed in some kind of benign way.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed by the same agents.\n\nThere's two possible points of view: that the World is random, like, and\nthings happen for no particular reason, or that things are in some way\nplanned and directed.\n\nI would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of the\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?\n\nEverybody else?\n\nOnly you know the truth?\n\nThis sounds really a lot like a religion, and not a gentle one.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:05:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<19DCBA6D415D49BC8A4DE469A1C445DD@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not a debate, Gerry.\n\nAccept, don't accept, say what you like.\n\nI was finished before and I'm still done.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "An agnostic reserves his opinion.\n\nHe does not know.\n\nThis is a rational position.\n\nKnowledge is based upon experience.\n\nIf a person has not had experience to convince him of the existence of\nGod, it is not rational for him to believe in God.\n\nThis is true.\n\nNeither is it rational for him to not believe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have never been to Australia, or to Brobdingnag. Nevertheless I have\nopinions about whether they exist. Strangely enough, these opinions are\ndifferent. Do you think I am being inconsistent?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7382e6027961513ad39c92c5ede8f16a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:07:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why are you not addressing my points, Gerry?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of\nthe\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is everyone who doesn't believe in the fairies deluded? Or everyone who\ndoesn't believe in the mountains?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0CEFAC.9080202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:10:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 8:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n----- Original Message ----- From: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of\nthe\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is everyone who doesn't believe in the fairies deluded? Or everyone who\ndoesn't believe in the mountains?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude - we've got to quit feeding the energy creature or it will never stop." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6921ed5118259009636e35932cb08245.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:13:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first instance of the word 'only' below is superfluous.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If randomness leads to order, then randomness is what you call what most\npeople call God.\n\nThere are always only two and only two choices: the one you choose and all\nthe other ones.\n\nIf you look at the World analytically, it is complicated.\n\nIf you look at the World synthetically, it is reasonably straightforward.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are a number of weak assumptions there. First, that randomness\ndoes\nnot itself lead to order; second, that there are always only two\nchoices;\nthird, that nature and \"naturalness\" are simple, when they are\ndemonstrably not.\n\nFourth, that atheism is not in fact found everywhere in nature. The\nthrushes in the woods behind my house did not take a day of rest\nyesterday\n(unless of course their calls are to be considered prayers and not\ncommunications regarding territory and mating; but no one has proposed\nor\nproven that).\n\nFinally, no one has mentioned delusions; perhaps they appear as part of\nyour worldview, but not mine.\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 21:36:23 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI think that the basic difference between atheists and most other people\nis that atheists think that things happen all random like.\n\nThe default point of view seems to be that the World is planned and\ndirected in some way.\n\nIt's not always God who plans and directs it.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed in some kind of benign way.\n\nIt's not always planned and directed by the same agents.\n\nThere's two possible points of view: that the World is random, like, and\nthings happen for no particular reason, or that things are in some way\nplanned and directed.\n\nI would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of\nthe\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?\n\nEverybody else?\n\nOnly you know the truth?\n\nThis sounds really a lot like a religion, and not a gentle one.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20e04281b91f5321ff8aa9170bb44dd8.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:19:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0CEFAC.9080202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An Irishman who doesn't believe in fairies?\n\nWait until they come to call, Gerry.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 8:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message ----- From: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of\nthe\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is everyone who doesn't believe in the fairies deluded? Or everyone who\ndoesn't believe in the mountains?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dude - we've got to quit feeding the energy creature or it will never\nstop.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T17:21:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if this is who Borski fingered, but I had presumed that \nthey were the Scottish missionaries Robert and Mary Moffat. Robert's \nvision was to plant a \"Garden for God\" in Africa. The problem is that \nthe Moffats served in the late 18th-early 19th century, and of course \nSev sees a plane just before encountering the hut. Of course he could \nhave been moving back in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOr forward, in universal time, heh heh. Actually I think the Jungle Hut\nworks as does its counterpart, The Lost House, a labyrinthine path leading\nto a vertical, time spanning structure. Going higher in the structure means\nmoving forward in time.\n \n \n \nAnd yeah, I think it was the Moffats that Borski identifies. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<00a301cb066a$9953d820$99d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-07T17:55:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted and wrote:\nThe Curtain Wall around the Citadel didn't need to be as big or\nsophisticated as the City Wall. The purpose of the Curtain Wall\n(according\nto Cyriaca's tale) was to safeguard the writings that became Ultan's\nLibrary. Her tale also implies that the City Wall and the curtain wall\ndate\nfrom the same period. That is, \"Their spoil was gathered into a great\nheap\nin the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\" She\ngoes\non to say that the cache of books was enclosed by a curtain wall when\nthe\nruler changed his mind about burning the books. That ruler had planned\nto\nretire behind the curtain wall if his dreams of a \"new empire\" (as\ndistinct\nfrom the \"first empire\") should fail (SWORD, chap. VI ).\n\nThe implication, of course, is that Typhon was that ruler, though he\ndied\nalone on his mountain. So, yes, if Cyriaca is to be believed, the walls\nare\nthe same age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't you think \"newly built\" here may not be not reliable?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely not reliable, which is why I qualified the statement. Cyriaca may\nhave conflated separate events, just as we get an American Civil War naval\nbattle mixed up with Greek myth in a story from the \"brown book\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the point\nof view of a future fable, events in the past can easily be seen as\nhappening in the same \"long ago\", even if separated by many years. I\ncertainly get the sense from Short Sun that Nessus was an established city\nat the time of Typhon - unless we are to think of Roger as a recent\nimmigrant to the place. Typhon himself calls the place Nessus in BotNS,\nbut\nwe are told elsewhere (can't remember where) that it had an earlier name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh yes, Nessus was well established in Typhon's time. The spaceport on\nCitadel Hill was known as the \"old port\" even when he was still alive (URTH,\n251). (Which in turn implies a new spaceport somewhere, but we are never\ntold where.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But whatever, has anybody ever come up with a good story about why he or\nsomebody else built such an extensive wall, enclosing so much undeveloped\nland? Even for a megalomaniac ...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No good story that I know of. Since both walls were made of the same\nunsmeltable metal, they had to have been constructed when the technology was\nstill available, and we know for sure that the curtain wall was there when\nTyphon was alive. Technology declined after Typhon, but not right away. (The\nearly autarchs could still carve mountains.)\n\nIt is hard for me to imagine that the City Wall could have failed to keep\nout an invading military force, but the Old Autarch said that the Ascians\nhad once \"laid waste to Nessus\" (CITADEL, chap. XXIV). It is also hard for\nme to believe that such a thing happened during the First Empire. It is\nequally hard to believe that it happened during Typhon's era; he had to have\nruled the whole planet, not just the Commonwealth, and the Ascians could\nhardly have been a real threat to him.\n\nMantis theorized that the invasion \"occurred early in the Age of the\nAutarch\" (LU2, 253). Could be. If so, the Wall may have been built early in\nthe autarchy to prevent such an invasion happening again. Still, it seems\nlike overkill. In any event, the Wall has to date back at least that far.\n\nThe city existed in some form long before Typhon came around. If it was ever\nsacked, then it must have been rebuilt. Cyriaca's story may have conflated\nthe rebuilding with \"newly built\", and mixed up the time of the Monarch(s?)\nwith that of the Autarchs.\n\nNo matter what, the Wall of Nessus is an enigma.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D3932.5000805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:23:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<00a301cb066a$9953d820$99d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 12:55 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAndrew quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From the point\nof view of a future fable, events in the past can easily be seen as\nhappening in the same \"long ago\", even if separated by many years. I\ncertainly get the sense from Short Sun that Nessus was an established city\nat the time of Typhon - unless we are to think of Roger as a recent\nimmigrant to the place. Typhon himself calls the place Nessus in BotNS,\nbut\nwe are told elsewhere (can't remember where) that it had an earlier name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh yes, Nessus was well established in Typhon's time. The spaceport on\nCitadel Hill was known as the \"old port\" even when he was still alive (URTH,\n251). (Which in turn implies a new spaceport somewhere, but we are never\ntold where.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"old port\" could also mean there have been no landings at all in some time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But whatever, has anybody ever come up with a good story about why he or\nsomebody else built such an extensive wall, enclosing so much undeveloped\nland? Even for a megalomaniac ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No good story that I know of. Since both walls were made of the same\nunsmeltable metal, they had to have been constructed when the technology was\nstill available, and we know for sure that the curtain wall was there when\nTyphon was alive. Technology declined after Typhon, but not right away. (The\nearly autarchs could still carve mountains.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that unsmeltables date from a much earlier time, similar to \nthat from which the artifacts at Saltus come, otherwise there's be no \nneed to start the mine. The wouldn't stop Ymar from using the existing \nconstructobots to carve himself into a mountain, as they remain slightly \nanimated even in Severian's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis theorized that the invasion \"occurred early in the Age of the\nAutarch\" (LU2, 253). Could be. If so, the Wall may have been built early in\nthe autarchy to prevent such an invasion happening again. Still, it seems\nlike overkill. In any event, the Wall has to date back at least that far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously the Wall doesn't stop aerial assault, the Ascians could have \nused some flyers that were subsequently destroyed by the Commonwealth \nforces." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9F8BE662BF2F463AB950CEC4D40178F6@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe there was a fear that the undersea giants would control the human populace, and some ruler built a security wall to prevent infiltration.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n From: Mr Thalassocrat \n\n But whatever, has anybody ever come up with a good story about why he or somebody else built such an extensive wall, enclosing so much undeveloped land? Even for a megalomaniac ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<97446D82DD814C2C8ABA221DC6BAFB98@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:49:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<7382e6027961513ad39c92c5ede8f16a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I was. In another post you just claimed you were not involved in \na debate, and you were done.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are you not addressing my points, Gerry?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of\nthe\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is everyone who doesn't believe in the fairies deluded? Or everyone who\ndoesn't believe in the mountains?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D513C.1090705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T20:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D3932.5000805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 1:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nObviously the Wall doesn't stop aerial assault, the Ascians could have \nused some flyers that were subsequently destroyed by the Commonwealth \nforces. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that really obvious? The thickness of the wall suggests that it's \npurpose is not merely a physical barrier against ground-based assaults. \nOtherwise, if an invading force over-topped it, the wall would become a \nhigh-ground from which to launch a more successful assaults on the rest \nof the territory.\n\nThe wall might be constructed *primarily* to prevent aerial and \nspace-based assaults through some sort of protective dome (which is \nunnecessary in Severian's time). The Ascians might have been far more \ntechnologically advanced in Typhon's time. Anyway, protecting a city \nwith a \"mere\" wall in Typhon's time strikes me as a bizarre anachronism." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T23:02:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<97446D82DD814C2C8ABA221DC6BAFB98@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two posts, one a debate, the other not.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I was. In another post you just claimed you were not involved\nin\na debate, and you were done.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why are you not addressing my points, Gerry?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I would like an atheist to explain to me why atheism is not found in\nnature.\n\nWhere is the ancient or traditional society that did not believe in\nsomething, whether the ghosts of their grandparents, or the spirits of\nthe\ntrees, or the fairies, or the planets or the mountains or the ocean or\nangels or gods or God or the Devil or something else.\n\nIs everyone except you and your buddies deluded?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is everyone who doesn't believe in the fairies deluded? Or everyone\nwho\ndoesn't believe in the mountains?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D8A9F.8040403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-08T00:11:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is sheer Brunianism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 09:02:23 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nIf randomness leads to order, then randomness is what you call what most\npeople call God.\n\nThere are always only two and only two choices: the one you choose and all\nthe other ones.\n\nIf you look at the World analytically, it is complicated.\n\nIf you look at the World synthetically, it is reasonably straightforward.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1c66cc9d680dfed21e1b9fc32344116d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-08T00:12:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religious writers and audiences", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D8A9F.8040403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's a good thing.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is sheer Brunianism.\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 09:02:23 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Religious writers and audiences\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nIf randomness leads to order, then randomness is what you call what most\npeople call God.\n\nThere are always only two and only two choices: the one you choose and all\nthe other ones.\n\nIf you look at the World analytically, it is complicated.\n\nIf you look at the World synthetically, it is reasonably straightforward.\n\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D98BA.80106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-08T01:11:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D513C.1090705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone suggested that the Wall was built to keep people in? Of course you still have the overkill problem.\n\nBut there are any number of reasons why a ruler might keep the main strength of his armies near home, especially when assaults might come from land, air, or sea as well as from within. \n\nI've wondered about a dome too. But would a space invader really land within the walls when the city still has functioning energy weapons that could destroy the incoming fleet? I'd land some distance away---less far than Ascia---assemble my forces, and then move on the city's defenses. This wall would forestall that. And since it's unsmeltable, presumably it would resist energy weapons.\n\nA large wall also puts its troops well away from the city proper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:06:20 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\nMessage-ID: <4C0D513C.1090705 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOn 6/7/2010 1:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Obviously the Wall doesn't stop aerial assault, the Ascians could have \nused some flyers that were subsequently destroyed by the Commonwealth \nforces. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nIs that really obvious? The thickness of the wall suggests that it's \npurpose is not merely a physical barrier against ground-based assaults. \nOtherwise, if an invading force over-topped it, the wall would become a \nhigh-ground from which to launch a more successful assaults on the rest \nof the territory.\n\nThe wall might be constructed *primarily* to prevent aerial and \nspace-based assaults through some sort of protective dome (which is \nunnecessary in Severian's time). The Ascians might have been far more \ntechnologically advanced in Typhon's time. Anyway, protecting a city \nwith a \"mere\" wall in Typhon's time strikes me as a bizarre anachronism.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1679603614-1275961821-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207799901-@bda214.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "carrlaw at swbell.net", "address": "carrlaw at swbell.net" }, "date": "2010-06-08T01:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D98BA.80106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the scale of the wall I have difficulty in conceptualizing it being built post typhon-the thing is enormous, several thousand feet high, thick enough that that the characters can have signicant conversational interaction in hiking through it, and at least 25 miles in diameter. \nI think its a cast off piece of extra-solar technolgy that happened to fit the purpose of a curtain wall. Recall Baldanders refuting Dr Talos comment about the foresight involved in making the wall encompass so much area.\nSent via BlackBerry by AT&T\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nDate: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:11:22 \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\n\nHas anyone suggested that the Wall was built to keep people in? Of course you still have the overkill problem.\n\nBut there are any number of reasons why a ruler might keep the main strength of his armies near home, especially when assaults might come from land, air, or sea as well as from within. \n\nI've wondered about a dome too. But would a space invader really land within the walls when the city still has functioning energy weapons that could destroy the incoming fleet? I'd land some distance away---less far than Ascia---assemble my forces, and then move on the city's defenses. This wall would forestall that. And since it's unsmeltable, presumably it would resist energy weapons.\n\nA large wall also puts its troops well away from the city proper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:06:20 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) traveling north\nMessage-ID: <4C0D513C.1090705 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOn 6/7/2010 1:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Obviously the Wall doesn't stop aerial assault, the Ascians could have \nused some flyers that were subsequently destroyed by the Commonwealth \nforces. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nIs that really obvious? The thickness of the wall suggests that it's \npurpose is not merely a physical barrier against ground-based assaults. \nOtherwise, if an invading force over-topped it, the wall would become a \nhigh-ground from which to launch a more successful assaults on the rest \nof the territory.\n\nThe wall might be constructed *primarily* to prevent aerial and \nspace-based assaults through some sort of protective dome (which is \nunnecessary in Severian's time). The Ascians might have been far more \ntechnologically advanced in Typhon's time. Anyway, protecting a city \nwith a \"mere\" wall in Typhon's time strikes me as a bizarre anachronism.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0DD277.3000604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-08T05:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D513C.1090705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 1:55 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI don't think so. To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws\nof physics in Briah by travelling faster than light (though the\nmechanism proposed, tacking across the light from the stars, is cute but\nunfeasible)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Accelerating up to lightspeed then doing some trick to go FTL is a \ntime-honored SF tradition including STAR WARS and going back at least to \n_STARMAN JONES_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 3:06 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/7/2010 1:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Obviously the Wall doesn't stop aerial assault, the Ascians could have\nused some flyers that were subsequently destroyed by the Commonwealth\nforces." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that really obvious? The thickness of the wall suggests that it's\npurpose is not merely a physical barrier against ground-based assaults.\nOtherwise, if an invading force over-topped it, the wall would become a\nhigh-ground from which to launch a more successful assaults on the rest\nof the territory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, a wall obviously doesn't stop aerial assault. If The Wall's \nsophisticated defenses had failed in centuries past along with numerous \nother high technologies, The Wall's sheer bulk wouldn't prevent Ascian \nflyers from flying over and raking the city with fusils and such from \nabove, burning most of it down, and this may have happened as late as a \nfew decades before Severian. The Wall's bulk and unsmeltability would \nstill protect the infantry inside from the flyers, allowing them to get \nvery close to any grounded flyers before being exposed to enemy fire, \nmaking the top of the unconquered Wall unusable as a high-ground for any \nlength of time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501cb06e1$0f530b60$3fd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-08T08:03:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D513C.1090705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe wall might be constructed *primarily* to prevent aerial and\nspace-based assaults through some sort of protective dome (which is\nunnecessary in Severian's time). The Ascians might have been far more\ntechnologically advanced in Typhon's time. Anyway, protecting a city\nwith a \"mere\" wall in Typhon's time strikes me as a bizarre anachronism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the Ascians were a factor in Typhon's time. He ruled the whole\nplanet. (Remember all the ethnic factions from all over Urth that were\nforcibly put aboard the _Whorl_.)\n\nI really doubt that the Wall had anything to do with the Ascians, who were\nfar to the north of the Commonwealth. The Wall circumscribes too much\nterritory. The Gyoll passed through the Wall, north and south. Several days\nbefore the _Samru_ reached the Citadel from the coast, the ship passed\nthrough the Wall (CITADEL, chap. XXXII). The banks were marshy with silt,\nand it took a couple days before Sev even realized that the moss-covered\nmounds he was looking at were the crumbled ruins of buildings.\n\nThat implies a long period of decay. There is no point in building a huge\nwall around ruined buildings, so the Wall must have been built when it was\nstill a vibrant part of the city, and the area was far south of Ascia.\n\nIt is also hard to believe that the southern sections of the Wall were\nfilled with Commonwealth troops. What good would they be out in the southern\nboondocks when the only known enemy is far to the north?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C12B912.4090703@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T22:30:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<006901cb0606$65730bc0$90cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/06/10 06:57, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThe Curtain Wall around the Citadel didn't need to be as big or\nsophisticated as the City Wall. The purpose of the Curtain Wall (according\nto Cyriaca's tale) was to safeguard the writings that became Ultan's\nLibrary. Her tale also implies that the City Wall and the curtain wall date\nfrom the same period. That is, \"Their spoil was gathered into a great heap\nin the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\" She goes\non to say that the cache of books was enclosed by a curtain wall when the\nruler changed his mind about burning the books. That ruler had planned to\nretire behind the curtain wall if his dreams of a \"new empire\" (as distinct\nfrom the \"first empire\") should fail (SWORD, chap. VI ).\n\nThe implication, of course, is that Typhon was that ruler, though he died\nalone on his mountain. So, yes, if Cyriaca is to be believed, the walls are\nthe same age.\n\n-Roy\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed that perhaps the Citadel wall might even be a trifle *earlier* \nthan the City Wall itself. Yet according to Jonas, the Citadel was built \nto the *north* of the city (presumably including its curtain wall if \nthese two walls are indeed of an age) ... there is a question here that \nit still unanswered I think, in terms of the the geography of Sev's Urth.\n\nUnless of course Jonas is simply telling fairy stories! However I'm \ninclined to think Wolfe does not include this kind of information just \nfor 'decoration' as it were.\n\nHave remembered a couple of other points which gave me pause regarding \ncompass directions back when I last read this work. The first was the \ndescription of Sev's journey to the Last House and back. He is clearly \ndescribed as travelling with his shadow before him, a phenomenon which \ncan only be observed in the southern hemisphere when travelling \nsouthward. I now realise that at the time I first read this, I assumed \nthat when this happened he had to have been travelling northward ... but \nin fact this is not the case, since Mannea's map is not \ncompass-direction specific as in fact it could not be since the Last \nHouse does not quite exist in normal space. He could have been \ntravelling in any direction at all when he made note of his shadow, \nsince to find the Last House he has to follow the map's instructions \n(which do not include points of the compass) exactly, and may have been \ntravelling in that direction he had not previously noticed :)\n\nAlso there is the (probably quite small) point of the identity - if any! \n- in our world of *The Eight*, a constellation which Sev notes consists \nonly of three stars (so the reason for its name is a mystery to him) and \nwhich is circumpolar about whichever pole :) he may have observed in his \nhemisphere throughout his life. Any views on this?\n\nthanks very much for responses and am very sorry I am only able to get \nreplies out about every 3 - 4 days. I really enjoy reading most of this \nlist and it is way more than just 'interesting' to me to rediscover the \nfandom after so many years. Thanks to all!\n\nregards\n\nJD\n\n\nPS I have not yet re-read UOTNS this time round (actually have been \ntrying to spin out *Citadel* for as long as possible :) ); if there is \nmore information in there about the Walls, I have not yet caught up with \nit." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T23:07:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C12B912.4090703@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 11, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\n\nHave remembered a couple of other points which gave me pause regarding compass directions back when I last read this work. The first was the description of Sev's journey to the Last House and back. He is clearly described as travelling with his shadow before him, a phenomenon which can only be observed in the southern hemisphere when travelling southward. I now realise that at the time I first read this, I assumed that when this happened he had to have been travelling northward ... but in fact this is not the case, since Mannea's map is not compass-direction specific as in fact it could not be since the Last House does not quite exist in normal space. He could have been travelling in any direction at all when he made note of his shadow, since to find the Last House he has to follow the map's instructions (which do not include points of the compass) exactly, and may have been travelling in that direction he had not previously noticed :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the earlier confusion about the sun and the shoulder, I want to go out on a limb here and invoke something else Wolfe is known to have read and liked, and say that it is clear that Severian is travelling in the Land of Oz." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also there is the (probably quite small) point of the identity - if any! - in our world of *The Eight*, a constellation which Sev notes consists only of three stars (so the reason for its name is a mystery to him) and which is circumpolar about whichever pole :) he may have observed in his hemisphere throughout his life. Any views on this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps they are the stars of the sky of the Tenth Elegy. Which then, well, I'd hardly be the first to point out that crossing the Deadly Desert might be exactly what it sounds like.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-06-11T23:23:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C12B912.4090703@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Jane Delawney wrote:\n\nAlso there is the (probably quite small) point of the identity - if any! - in \nour world of *The Eight*, a constellation which Sev notes consists only of \nthree stars (so the reason for its name is a mystery to him) and which is \ncircumpolar about whichever pole :) he may have observed in his hemisphere \nthroughout his life. Any views on this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Through the magic of Google, I think this might refer to the constellation of\nOctans, which sits near the South Celestial Pole, and has three\nbright stars forming a triangle (see image at below):\n\nhttp://www.rasnz.org.nz/Stars/Octans.htm\n\nJust 2c, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C12D964.8030004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-12T00:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) traveling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C12B912.4090703@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/11/2010 5:30 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nHave remembered a couple of other points which gave me pause regarding\ncompass directions back when I last read this work. The first was the\ndescription of Sev's journey to the Last House and back. He is clearly\ndescribed as travelling with his shadow before him, a phenomenon which\ncan only be observed in the southern hemisphere when travelling\nsouthward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? A pedestrian's shadow can lay to the westward in the morning and to \nthe eastward in the evening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also there is the (probably quite small) point of the identity - if any!\n- in our world of *The Eight*, a constellation which Sev notes consists\nonly of three stars (so the reason for its name is a mystery to him) and\nwhich is circumpolar about whichever pole :) he may have observed in his\nhemisphere throughout his life. Any views on this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Octans, the octant. It doesn't actually form a 45 deg angle now (1/8 of \na circle), and apparently not in Severian's time either or the name \nwouldn't puzzle him." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1D5C8A.2020403@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T00:10:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali (was: Re: traveling north)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I may crave your collective indulgence a little longer ... please \nforgive me if you're all heartily sick of this, but in my re-reading I \nhave just come across another of those moments which, now I have \nreminded myself, has also featured in my doubt about north-south \nconsistency (or consistency with the present at least) in the New Sun \n'canon'.\n\nToward the end of TUOTNS Severian, having been 'rescued' from a suicidal \nfunk by Juturna of all beings (and this scene is debate-worthy in \nitself, since she was earlier his enemy - though since he has succeeded \nin his destined role as the New Sun she and her kind no longer have a \nreason to oppose him), and incidentally proving that even though he's \nfulfilled his primary role he *still* can not die (earlier, he assumes \nthat the reason for this characteristic is that he's yet to bring the \nNew Sun, which he has been foreordained to do) wanders up the Brook \nMadregot and emerges from the Corridors in the age of Apu-Punchau.\n\nAlthough by then many readers are saying, 'Well, we all knew that was \ngoing to happen' and maybe even 'Well, get on with it!', he then spends \na page or two wandering over the pampas. No mention of shadows here \n(good, given previous responses they are far too confusing and \nambiguous); instead, when he first meets the native people of that era, \nhe notes that they are busy watering their fields and generally acting \nas though it is spring or summer, even though \" ... among the \nconstellations of the previous night had been the crotali, the winter \nstars that bring the rattle of ice-sheathed branches\".\n\nWe know already that in the time of the Conciliator temperate-climate \ncrops extend some way 'south' (or whatever:) ) of where they are found \nin Severian's day (he remarks on the occurrence of apple-orchards way \n'south' of where he remembers), and of course the time of Apu-Punchau is \nmillennia earlier. But postulating a longer summer and growing season is \nsurely not enough to bring the stars of deepest winter (the name \ncrotali, 'the rattles' according to Andre-Driussi, though I confess to \nignorance as the language involved, seems to be related directly to the \nrattling together of icicles in the wind, I have no idea which if any of \nour present constellations may be involved) into summer. The implication \nseems to be clear that what Severian knew as winter is now summer. The \nonly explanation that I can see here is that the poles, the hemispheres \nthemselves, are not arranged as Sev knew them in his original place and \ntime.\n\nWould be glad of any comments / illuminations, am quite prepared to \naccept that I may have made an egregious mistake (again :)! ) here. But \nI really am not convinced (pace Adam :) ) that this is in fact the land \nof Oz.\n\nregards\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T01:02:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali (was: Re: traveling north)", "in_reply_to": "<4C1D5C8A.2020403@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nWe know already that in the time of the Conciliator temperate-climate crops\nextend some way 'south' (or whatever:) ) of where they are found in\nSeverian's day (he remarks on the occurrence of apple-orchards way 'south'\nof where he remembers), and of course the time of Apu-Punchau is millennia\nearlier. But postulating a longer summer and growing season is surely not\nenough to bring the stars of deepest winter (the name crotali, 'the rattles'\naccording to Andre-Driussi, though I confess to ignorance as the language\ninvolved, seems to be related directly to the rattling together of icicles\nin the wind, I have no idea which if any of our present constellations may\nbe involved) into summer. The implication seems to be clear that what\nSeverian knew as winter is now summer. The only explanation that I can see\nhere is that the poles, the hemispheres themselves, are not arranged as Sev\nknew them in his original place and time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just assumed that he has travelled so far back in time that the proper\nmotions of the stars had carried them far away from their positions in his\nown day.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_motion" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1D884A.2050402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T03:17:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 8:02 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jane Delawney > wrote:\n\n We know already that in the time of the Conciliator\n temperate-climate crops extend some way 'south' (or whatever:) ) of\n where they are found in Severian's day (he remarks on the occurrence\n of apple-orchards way 'south' of where he remembers), and of course\n the time of Apu-Punchau is millennia earlier. But postulating a\n longer summer and growing season is surely not enough to bring the\n stars of deepest winter (the name crotali, 'the rattles' according\n to Andre-Driussi, though I confess to ignorance as the language\n involved, seems to be related directly to the rattling together of\n icicles in the wind, I have no idea which if any of our present\n constellations may be involved) into summer. The implication seems\n to be clear that what Severian knew as winter is now summer. The\n only explanation that I can see here is that the poles, the\n hemispheres themselves, are not arranged as Sev knew them in his\n original place and time.\n\nI just assumed that he has travelled so far back in time that the proper\nmotions of the stars had carried them far away from their positions in\nhis own day." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most constallations' component stars have no physical association among \nthem and only appear to lie closely together as seen from Earth. This \nlack of unity means proper motion will make them unrecognizable and/or \ndisperse them entirely.\n\nPrecession of the equinoxes however takes place on a shorter scale, \ncurrently a bit under about 26,000 years per full ciruit of pole stars. \nThis implies that Apu Punchau is about 13,000 years before Severian, or \n39,000, or 65,000 or 91,000..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T05:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali", "in_reply_to": "<4C1D884A.2050402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n\n\nMost constallations' component stars have no physical association among\nthem and only appear to lie closely together as seen from Earth. This lack\nof unity means proper motion will make them unrecognizable and/or disperse\nthem entirely.\n\nPrecession of the equinoxes however takes place on a shorter scale,\ncurrently a bit under about 26,000 years per full ciruit of pole stars. This\nimplies that Apu Punchau is about 13,000 years before Severian, or 39,000,\nor 65,000 or 91,000..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, of course." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1DCDE4.1010508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T08:14:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/2010 12:20 AM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n\n Most constallations' component stars have no physical association\n among them and only appear to lie closely together as seen from\n Earth. This lack of unity means proper motion will make them\n unrecognizable and/or disperse them entirely.\n\n Precession of the equinoxes however takes place on a shorter scale,\n currently a bit under about 26,000 years per full ciruit of pole\n stars. This implies that Apu Punchau is about 13,000 years before\n Severian, or 39,000, or 65,000 or 91,000...\n\nYou're right, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not to say that proper motion has no part to play in the Book. \nit puts a fuzzy upper limit on how many 26,000 year cycles can pass. \nStarting about 03:30, this episode of Cosmos shows a few changing over \n+/- a million years.\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYobCdq9BEA&feature=fvsr\n\nThey are unrecognizeable IMO after a million years, so that's about 40 \nprecession cycles. Also, the displacement seems to be only 1/4 of the \nretrograde precession, spring planting under winter stars, so the split \ncould be as little as 6500 years before adding multiples.\n\nHmp - reading Urth's appendix in this light seems to confirm not just \nthe Ship's intervention in the eclipse, but the truly continental size \nof the mirror-sails: not just the 1/2 degree width of the moon is \ncovered, as if by a Yesodi peephole, but several constellations worth of \narc of mirror would be required to allow Severian to see his familiar \nconstellations out of their season." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2164AE.204@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T01:34:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 20/06/10 02:02, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\nOn Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jane Delawneywrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only explanation that I can see\nhere is that the poles, the hemispheres themselves, are not arranged as Sev\nknew them in his original place and time.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just assumed that he has travelled so far back in time that the proper\nmotions of the stars had carried them far away from their positions in his\nown day.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_motion\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since I haven't been re-reading Wolfe's appendices until after I have \nfinished the books themselves, I hadn't until after I posted my query \nabout the Crotali read the comment right at the end of TUOTNS:\n\n\"... it should be noted that the stars seen in the skies of the \nCommonwealth in winter rise in spring over the Stone Town (presumably \ndue to the precession of the equinoxes) ... \"\n\nThis comment occurs in the discussion of the apparent 'miracle' of the \nprolongation of night by Apu-Punchau; GW goes on to state that \nSeverian's seeing of his accustomed spring stars in the delayed dawn \nsupports the theory that the prolongation of the night is no 'miracle' \nbut rather is caused by an eclipse of the sun - eclipsed by Tzadkiel's \nvast ship, we are led to assume. Sev's childhood spring stars are still \nthere, but they rise a great deal later than they should for the time \nof year.\n\nThis would appear to make sense astronomically and there's no need to \ninvoke a polar flip. However it does beg the question of exactly how far \nthe equinoxes would need to precess to produce this effect. I believe a \nfull Great Year of equinoctial precession lasts some 26000 solar years \n(is this right?) and this would imply that Apu-Punchau's time is some \n13500 years before Severian's present at the very least (could be \nseveral multiples of 26000 plus 13500 of course).\n\nThis doesn't have very much to do with proper motion of the stars as \nsuch of course; however, one might note that there's a hidden \nimplication here that Apu-Punchau's era may be on the nearer end of that \ntimescale, since proper motion of the stars would definitely affect the \nshape of constellations, and Sev has no hesitation in recognising the \nCrotali and other patterns.\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T01:38:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crotali", "in_reply_to": "<4C2164AE.204@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apu Punchau:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apu_Punchau" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 20/06/10 02:02, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jane Delawneywrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The only explanation that I can see\nhere is that the poles, the hemispheres themselves, are not arranged as\nSev\nknew them in his original place and time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just assumed that he has travelled so far back in time that the proper\nmotions of the stars had carried them far away from their positions in his\nown day.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_motion" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since I haven't been re-reading Wolfe's appendices until after I have\nfinished the books themselves, I hadn't until after I posted my query about\nthe Crotali read the comment right at the end of TUOTNS:\n\n\"... it should be noted that the stars seen in the skies of the\nCommonwealth in winter rise in spring over the Stone Town (presumably due to\nthe precession of the equinoxes) ... \"\n\nThis comment occurs in the discussion of the apparent 'miracle' of the\nprolongation of night by Apu-Punchau; GW goes on to state that Severian's\nseeing of his accustomed spring stars in the delayed dawn supports the\ntheory that the prolongation of the night is no 'miracle' but rather is\ncaused by an eclipse of the sun - eclipsed by Tzadkiel's vast ship, we are\nled to assume. Sev's childhood spring stars are still there, but they rise a\ngreat deal later than they should for the time of year.\n\nThis would appear to make sense astronomically and there's no need to\ninvoke a polar flip. However it does beg the question of exactly how far the\nequinoxes would need to precess to produce this effect. I believe a full\nGreat Year of equinoctial precession lasts some 26000 solar years (is this\nright?) and this would imply that Apu-Punchau's time is some 13500 years\nbefore Severian's present at the very least (could be several multiples of\n26000 plus 13500 of course).\n\nThis doesn't have very much to do with proper motion of the stars as such\nof course; however, one might note that there's a hidden implication here\nthat Apu-Punchau's era may be on the nearer end of that timescale, since\nproper motion of the stars would definitely affect the shape of\nconstellations, and Sev has no hesitation in recognising the Crotali and\nother patterns.\n\nJD\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }