{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5620", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5620, "subject": "travelling north", "messages": 35, "voices": 12, "first": "2010-06-03T19:03:20+00:00", "last": "2010-06-14T20:03:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<97FB9A3F77F14A01BFF0675506893D48@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-03T19:03:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Lee Berman \n\n\"FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually \nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly \nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus, \nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about \nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its \nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which \nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nThe Book of the Long Sun is set in the same universe, and in it Silk has a vision of a hero riding into a city, greeted by supporters waving fan-shaped leaves. (I can't remember the page offhand.) Surely this represents Palm Sunday, suggesting that Jesus existed in this universe?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74ACEC927B2D43749BA167224C5AB711@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-03T19:04:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<97FB9A3F77F14A01BFF0675506893D48@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Lee Berman \n\n\"FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually \nadvanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly \nspiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus, \nSeverian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about \nis much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its \nspiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which \nplagued our pagan ancestors.\"\n\nThe Book of the Long Sun is set in the same universe, and in it Silk has a vision of a hero riding into a city, greeted by supporters waving fan-shaped leaves. (I can't remember the page offhand.) Surely this represents Palm Sunday, suggesting that Jesus existed in this universe?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08075B.2030400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T19:49:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<74ACEC927B2D43749BA167224C5AB711@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThe Book of the Long Sun is set in the same universe,\nand in it Silk has a vision of a hero riding into a city,\ngreeted by supporters waving fan-shaped leaves.\n(I can't remember the page offhand.)\nSurely this represents Palm Sunday,\nsuggesting that Jesus existed in this universe?\n-Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had this vision during his enlightenment by the Outsider (presumably \nthe Increate). Surely the Outsider is the Lord of all the Universes, and \ncould offer a vision from any of them. Still, I've never been able to \npiece together any narrative value from saying that Jesus never came in \nSeverian's universe. As was recently pointed out, the world would be \nquite different if there had never been a Christianity, and Severian's \npast is very much like our own.\n\nIMO Too much is made of Wolfe's personal Christian beliefs in his most \nof his fiction. I don't think he tries to make his fiction conform to \ncorrect theology. I recall that in an interview he obliquely used Orson \nScott Card as an example of a writer that puts his faith into all of his \nwritings and said that he himself did not do that.\n\n\"The Concilliator\" is more of a Gnostic concept and a Gnostic Christian \nconcept. I don't believe Wolfe is Gnostic even though it is reasonable \nto assert that what _The Chronicles of Narnia_ were to Orthodox \nChristianity, the entire Sun Cycle is to Gnostic Christianity. Wolfe has \nsaid that Severian is a \"Christ-figure\". Well, Mithras is a \nChrist-figure. Hercules was, in some 1st or 2nd century paen, called \n\"The Savior of the World\".\n\nJ.\n\nPS Before anyone objects, I realize that Paul used the term \"mediator\" \nin Galatians and 1 Timothy, but in Galatians he says that with Christ \nthere was no mediator between God and Mankind, and in 1 Timothy he seems \nto be using the term ironically to dispense with complicated concepts of \nmediators in ala angels, the Law of Moses, and (I think) early \nGnosticism (in 1 Tim. he also refers to \"profane and vain babblings, and \noppositions of science falsely so called\" and \"myths and endless \ngenealogies [aeons]\")." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T19:54:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C08075B.2030400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWolfe has said that\nSeverian is a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0808EC.70806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T19:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe has said that\nSeverian is a \"Christ-figure\".\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, even more so then." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T20:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0808EC.70806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re: conciliation\n\nI think that sort of says it all, right? \"Reconciliation.\" Orthodox\n(little-o) Christians certainly believe that Christ \"reconciled\" God and man\nwhich is more or less the way Severian describes his role.\n\nIncidentally, this is how the word \"reconciled\" pops up in the Easter Vigil\nliturgy:\n\n\"How blessed is this night, when earth and heaven are joined and man is\nreconciled to God.\n\nHoly Father, accept our evening sacrifice, the offering of this candle in\nyour honor. May it shine continually to drive away all darkness. *May\nChrist, the Morning Star who knows no setting*, find it ever burning--he who\ngives his light to all creation, and who lives and reigns for ever and ever.\nAmen.\"\n\nIt does not go on, \"You, the hero who slays the black worm that devours the\nSun\"...but it might." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe has said that\nSeverian is a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, even more so then.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C080BDC.6050701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T20:09:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0808EC.70806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe has said that\nSeverian is a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, even more so then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again \nquote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The \nman who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only \nobject we are specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but \na whip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being \na torturer...\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<908091.30977.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T22:15:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C080BDC.6050701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wolfe has said that Severian is a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, even more so then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the quotation (or one version). The \"you\" is James Jordan.\n\n\"And as you've said in your letters, I don't think of\nSeverian as being a Christ figure; I think of Severian as being a\nChristian figure. He is a man who has been born into a very\nperverse background, who is gradually trying to become better. I\nthink that all of us have somewhere in us an instinct to try and\nbecome better. Some of us defeat it thoroughly. We kill that part\nof ourselves, just as we kill the child in ourselves. It is very\nclosely related to the child in us.\"\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again quote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The man who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only object we\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a whip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a torturer...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. But it doesn't mean Severian is like Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did for ours. Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a savior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T22:19:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<908091.30977.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this has been covered, right?\n\n1) Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and Jesus.\n2) Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n----- Original Message ----\n\nOn 6/3/2010 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Wolfe has said that Severian is a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, even more so then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's the quotation (or one version). The \"you\" is James Jordan.\n\n\"And as you've said in your letters, I don't think of\nSeverian as being a Christ figure; I think of Severian as being a\nChristian figure. He is a man who has been born into a very\nperverse background, who is gradually trying to become better. I\nthink that all of us have somewhere in us an instinct to try and\nbecome better. Some of us defeat it thoroughly. We kill that part\nof ourselves, just as we kill the child in ourselves. It is very\nclosely related to the child in us.\"\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again quote\nCastle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The man\nwho built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only object\nwe\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a\nwhip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a\ntorturer...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. But it doesn't mean Severian is\nlike Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did\nfor ours. Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a savior\nat all, the carpenter who made the cross.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T22:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI think this has been covered, right?\n\n1)? Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and Jesus.\n2)? Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Jerry Friedman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message ----\n\nOn 6/3/2010 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn ?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Wolfe has said that Severian is a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, even more so then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's the quotation (or one version). ?The \"you\" is James Jordan.\n\n\"And as you've said in your letters, I don't think of\nSeverian as being a Christ figure; I think of Severian as being a\nChristian figure. He is a man who has been born into a very\nperverse background, who is gradually trying to become better. I\nthink that all of us have somewhere in us an instinct to try and\nbecome better. Some of us defeat it thoroughly. We kill that part\nof ourselves, just as we kill the child in ourselves. It is very\nclosely related to the child in us.\"\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again\nquote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The\nman who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only\nobject we\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a\nwhip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a\ntorturer...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. ?But it doesn't mean Severian is\nlike Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did\nfor ours. ?Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a\nsavior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0836CB.3070100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-03T23:12:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the contention (for me) is that although #1 is true I do not \nthink...\n\n3) Wolfe necessarily sees Severian as a *figurative* stand-in for the \nJesus he believes in.\n\nThe figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic ones not \nJudeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act, and achieve, within their \nworlds as the Gnostic Christ does. Not as the Johanine Christ acts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/3/2010 5:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think this has been covered, right?\n\n1) Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and Jesus.\n2) Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Jerry Friedman\nwrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----- Original Message ----\n\nOn 6/3/2010 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Wolfe has said that Severian is a \"Christ-figure\".\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are\nChrist-figures, and prefers the term \"Christian figure.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, even more so then.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Here's the quotation (or one version). The \"you\" is James Jordan.\n\n\"And as you've said in your letters, I don't think of\nSeverian as being a Christ figure; I think of Severian as being a\nChristian figure. He is a man who has been born into a very\nperverse background, who is gradually trying to become better. I\nthink that all of us have somewhere in us an instinct to try and\nbecome better. Some of us defeat it thoroughly. We kill that part\nof ourselves, just as we kill the child in ourselves. It is very\nclosely related to the child in us.\"\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again\nquote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The\nman who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only\nobject we\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a\nwhip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a\ntorturer...\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. But it doesn't mean Severian is\nlike Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did\nfor ours. Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a\nsavior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C084C29.5040407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-04T00:43:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0836CB.3070100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. Can you elaborate on the distinction?\n\n(I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 18:12:11 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) travelling north\nMessage-ID: <4C0836CB.3070100 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nI think the contention (for me) is that although #1 is true I do not \nthink...\n\n3) Wolfe necessarily sees Severian as a *figurative* stand-in for the \nJesus he believes in.\n\nThe figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic ones not \nJudeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act, and achieve, within their \nworlds as the Gnostic Christ does. Not as the Johanine Christ acts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C088575.5010807@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T04:47:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C084C29.5040407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic\nones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act,\nand achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does.\nNot as the Johanine Christ acts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nInteresting. Can you elaborate on the distinction?\n(I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, for starters, the Gnostic Christ does not save anyone \nindividually. He saves mankind as a whole through the example of his \nenlightenment. This is closer to the salvation of Silk and Severian than \nJesus. Additionally \"the Christ\" is merely the male half of God \n(although even that term has a somewhat different meaning). With the \nfemale half they form the syzygy of their particular Aeon. This is \nSeverian and Thecla. Silk and Hyacinth are a retelling of the gnostic \nstory of Simon Magus and Helena. Helena was the Ennoia who had fallen \ninto the lower aeons and become trapped in matter. \"The Father\", \nmanifesting himself as Simon Magus, \"The Son\", finds her in a brothel \nsuffering abuse, and rescues her. There's also Ophis, the serpent, mixed \nup in the story. It would difficult, but take fewer words, to detail the \nways that New Sun and Long Son are inconsistant with what we know of the \nteachings of guys like Tatian and Valentinus or the group founded on \ntheir teachings known as the Severians.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0B101A.7040105@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T03:03:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 03/06/10 23:21, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "while commenting upon:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n I think this has been covered, right?\n\n 1) Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and Jesus.\n 2) Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heartburn being an understatement no doubt! Regarding this, I feel that \none of the most interesting passages of all occurs toward the end of \n'The Urth of the New Sun'. [I know there are those who do not care for \nthe sequel, but Wolfe wrote it also, to continue Severian's story, and \nso I feel it should at least be mentioned.]\n\nSeverian has traveled via the Corridors of Time to the ancient past of \nthe Stone Town, where he has been taken by its people for (what appears \nto approximate to) a solar deity. To the extent that when he attempts \nseriously to leave, they kill him in order to keep him with them for \never. The whole referring back of course to the episode in *Conciliator* \nwhere we first get a heads up that Severian and the vivimancer \nApu-Punchau are in some sense the same person (or \nCopenhagen-interpretation iterations of the same entity).\n\nSeverian wakes up in Apu-Punchau's tomb, with the dead body of his \n'other self' alongside him; he is baffled (as usual!) and frightened, \nbut fortunately the white-clad figures of the Hierodules are there to \nexplain things to him, or to help him construct his own explanation. \nDuring the course of this Ossipago offers to take all of them back to a \n'better time'; an offer that is refused. Over the page Famulimus tells \nSeverian that if they had allowed Ossipago to do this, he would have \ntaken them back to an earlier time and 'That would not have been a \nbetter place for you, I think.' All this after the two non-machine \nHierodules have prostrated themselves before the 'resurrected' Severian, \n'the head of his race and its savior'.\n\nOne is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed, \nOssipago would have transported the party 'back' in time (using \nSeverian's perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection? \nFamulimus forbids it, thus preventing this final merging of timelines. \nOn this interpretation, while Severian grows and evolves to become a \nkind of savior, the Powers do not allow that final identification of \nSeverian with Christ himself. On the other hand, since Severian/the \nSleeper is now a practised wanderer of the Corridors of Time, nowhere \nis it excluded that somewhere along the line, with his further internal \nspiritual evolution perhaps, this identification could happen. Maybe \nFamulimus is saying 'Not right now' (that is, Severian's 'now'), rather \nthan 'No way that's wrong and always will be.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again\nquote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The\nman who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only\nobject we\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a\nwhip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a\ntorturer...\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. But it doesn't mean Severian is\nlike Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did\nfor ours. Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a\nsavior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. To veer off topic a little - there is another writer - a devout \nOrthodox (big 'O') Christian - who has (to the best of my recollection) \nused exactly this last notion in writing of Christ himself. Nikos \nKazantzakis in 'The Last Temptation of Christ' has Christ as an \napprentice carpenter building crosses, instruments of torture and death, \nfor the Occupying Power. (I will not comment on this; I'm just relaying \nthe information.) Does the Guild of Seekers for Truth and Penitence have \ntheir apprentices help to build their 'apparatus'?\n\nIt *is* off topic of course; but still, since it is many years since I \nread that book please correct me if I have remembered LTOC wrong.\n\nI don't think I have though - It's so unlikely I'd have invented this \nidea myself back then.\n\nregards\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T03:15:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B101A.7040105@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is a Descent of Christ.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 03/06/10 23:21, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "while commenting upon:\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I think this has been covered, right?\n\n 1) Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and\nJesus.\n 2) Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to\nJesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heartburn being an understatement no doubt! Regarding this, I feel that\none of the most interesting passages of all occurs toward the end of\n'The Urth of the New Sun'. [I know there are those who do not care for\nthe sequel, but Wolfe wrote it also, to continue Severian's story, and\nso I feel it should at least be mentioned.]\n\nSeverian has traveled via the Corridors of Time to the ancient past of\nthe Stone Town, where he has been taken by its people for (what appears\nto approximate to) a solar deity. To the extent that when he attempts\nseriously to leave, they kill him in order to keep him with them for\never. The whole referring back of course to the episode in *Conciliator*\nwhere we first get a heads up that Severian and the vivimancer\nApu-Punchau are in some sense the same person (or\nCopenhagen-interpretation iterations of the same entity).\n\nSeverian wakes up in Apu-Punchau's tomb, with the dead body of his\n'other self' alongside him; he is baffled (as usual!) and frightened,\nbut fortunately the white-clad figures of the Hierodules are there to\nexplain things to him, or to help him construct his own explanation.\nDuring the course of this Ossipago offers to take all of them back to a\n'better time'; an offer that is refused. Over the page Famulimus tells\nSeverian that if they had allowed Ossipago to do this, he would have\ntaken them back to an earlier time and 'That would not have been a\nbetter place for you, I think.' All this after the two non-machine\nHierodules have prostrated themselves before the 'resurrected' Severian,\n'the head of his race and its savior'.\n\nOne is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed,\nOssipago would have transported the party 'back' in time (using\nSeverian's perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection?\nFamulimus forbids it, thus preventing this final merging of timelines.\nOn this interpretation, while Severian grows and evolves to become a\nkind of savior, the Powers do not allow that final identification of\nSeverian with Christ himself. On the other hand, since Severian/the\nSleeper is now a practised wanderer of the Corridors of Time, nowhere\nis it excluded that somewhere along the line, with his further internal\nspiritual evolution perhaps, this identification could happen. Maybe\nFamulimus is saying 'Not right now' (that is, Severian's 'now'), rather\nthan 'No way that's wrong and always will be.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again\nquote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The\nman who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The\nonly\nobject we\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a\nwhip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being\na\ntorturer...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. But it doesn't mean Severian\nis\nlike Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus\ndid\nfor ours. Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a\nsavior at all, the carpenter who made the cross." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. To veer off topic a little - there is another writer - a devout\nOrthodox (big 'O') Christian - who has (to the best of my recollection)\nused exactly this last notion in writing of Christ himself. Nikos\nKazantzakis in 'The Last Temptation of Christ' has Christ as an\napprentice carpenter building crosses, instruments of torture and death,\nfor the Occupying Power. (I will not comment on this; I'm just relaying\nthe information.) Does the Guild of Seekers for Truth and Penitence have\ntheir apprentices help to build their 'apparatus'?\n\nIt *is* off topic of course; but still, since it is many years since I\nread that book please correct me if I have remembered LTOC wrong.\n\nI don't think I have though - It's so unlikely I'd have invented this\nidea myself back then.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<009801cb0535$44a10540$9ace4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B101A.7040105@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian wakes up in Apu-Punchau's tomb, with the dead body of his\n'other self' alongside him; he is baffled (as usual!) and frightened,\nbut fortunately the white-clad figures of the Hierodules are there to\nexplain things to him, or to help him construct his own explanation.\nDuring the course of this Ossipago offers to take all of them back to a\n'better time'; an offer that is refused. Over the page Famulimus tells\nSeverian that if they had allowed Ossipago to do this, he would have\ntaken them back to an earlier time and 'That would not have been a\nbetter place for you, I think.' All this after the two non-machine\nHierodules have prostrated themselves before the 'resurrected' Severian,\n'the head of his race and its savior'.\n\nOne is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed,\nOssipago would have transported the party 'back' in time (using\nSeverian's perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nI think not. There is a much simpler explanation. When Sev fled Ushas and\nwent backwards in time, he went only as as far as he *could* go. That is, he\nwent back in time only to just before the creation of the White Fountain.\nMore properly, to the point just before the first light from the Fountain\nreached Urth (p-353). He was unable to use the Corridors to escape the tomb\nuntil the first light of it reached him (p-358). In other words, Sev's\npersonal travels in time were bound by the light of the New Sun.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<981983.20322.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T17:09:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B101A.7040105@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jane Delawney \n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding this, I feel that one of the most interesting passages of all\noccurs toward the end of 'The Urth of the New Sun'. [I know there\nare those who do not care for the sequel, but Wolfe wrote it also, to\ncontinue Severian's story, and so I feel it should at least be\nmentioned.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm one of those people, as I mentioned recently, but please disregard my feeling completely. I wouldn't want my dislike of a certain Wolfe book to discourage anyone from saying anything on a list about Wolfe (or anywhere).\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T17:28:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C088575.5010807@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called \"allegorical.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmph, then he shouldn't have had created all those bad guys as dark-skinned\nguys from south and east riding elephants. Nor should he have allowed \"eagles\"\nto save the day at the end of his two big (hobbit-involved) wars. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<244909.15974.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:03:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nAnd Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called \"allegorical.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmph, then he shouldn't have had created all those bad guys as\ndark-skinned guys from south and east riding elephants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only the guys from the south ride elephants. The humans from the east aren't described as dark-skinned, as I recall. Maybe you're talking about the orcs, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor should\nhe have allowed \"eagles\" to save the day at the end of his two big\n(hobbit-involved) wars. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If people have suggested that the eagles represent the United States, that's just horrible. I'm not going to dispute that the eagles might have led people into such interpretations, though.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:07:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<244909.15974.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe they represented Romans! Or Germans!\n\nIt makes perfect sense for Tolkien to equate American military might with\nthe servants of Manwe. I mean, he completely approved of all actions taken\nby the Allies during the wars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called\n\"allegorical.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmph, then he shouldn't have had created all those bad guys as\ndark-skinned guys from south and east riding elephants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only the guys from the south ride elephants. The humans from the east\naren't described as dark-skinned, as I recall. Maybe you're talking about\nthe orcs, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor should\nhe have allowed \"eagles\" to save the day at the end of his two big\n(hobbit-involved) wars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If people have suggested that the eagles represent the United States,\nthat's just horrible. I'm not going to dispute that the eagles might have\nled people into such interpretations, though.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called \"allegorical.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmph, then he shouldn't have had created all those bad guys as\ndark-skinned guys from south and east riding elephants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only the guys from the south ride elephants. The humans from the east aren't\ndescribed as dark-skinned, as I recall. Maybe you're talking about the orcs, though.\nNor should he have allowed \"eagles\" to save the day at the end of his two big\n(hobbit-involved) wars. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If people have suggested that the eagles represent the United States, that's just" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "horrible. I'm not going to dispute that the eagles might have led people into\nsuch interpretations, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman\n\nWell, I am a Tolkein lover and was only being tongue-in-cheek critical. Still, he\ncouldn't help being a man shaped by his time and his culture. Why couldn't his \nsouthern elephant riders be blondes or red haired with freckles? Why were his \n\"Easterlings\":" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Men who lived in the east of Middle-earth, who mostly fought under Morgoth\nand Sauron.The Easterlings were short and muscular; they were dark of skin, eye,\nand hair. .they are armed with long halberds, scimitars and rectangular metal\nshields. Their armour is inscribed with a script which resembles Tengwar mixed\nwith Persian...In early design concepts, the Easterlings wore turbans and their\nhelmets bore crescent moons, but director Peter Jackson requested that references\nto real-world cultures be avoided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlings" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnd I would think a British author writing during and just after WWII would use hawks or \nharriers or falcons or any bird of prey other than eagles if he was hoping to avoid\nall hint of allegory. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D5E6A.4040001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T21:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I am a Tolkein lover and was only being tongue-in-cheek critical. Still, he\ncouldn't help being a man shaped by his time and his culture. Why couldn't his\nsouthern elephant riders be blondes or red haired with freckles? Why were his\n\"Easterlings\":\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Men who lived in the east of Middle-earth, who mostly fought under Morgoth\nand Sauron.The Easterlings were short and muscular; they were dark of skin, eye,\nand hair. .they are armed with long halberds, scimitars and rectangular metal\nshields. Their armour is inscribed with a script which resembles Tengwar mixed\nwith Persian...In early design concepts, the Easterlings wore turbans and their\nhelmets bore crescent moons, but director Peter Jackson requested that references\nto real-world cultures be avoided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlings\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I would think a British author writing during and just after WWII would use hawks or\nharriers or falcons or any bird of prey other than eagles if he was hoping to avoid\nall hint of allegory. \t\t \t \t\t\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Eagles were a motif of Tolkien's Valinor from the beginning. It is \nhardly likely that when the Eagles rescued Bilbo and the Dwarves in The \nHobbit, Tolkien intended that as some sort of patriotic statement.\n\nTolkien's stated purpose in creating his world was to create an English \nmythology. So he was drawing from the myths of the people who settled \nEngland...Scandinavian and Germanic people (with some Finland mythology \nthrown in for good measure). Avoiding terminology such as \"Fair Folk\" \n(pale people) for elves along with their pronounced physical height and \nstrength was really unavoidable. Tolkien compared the overall geography \nand breadth of western Middle Earth to being essentially that of Western \nEurope (the Shire being Cambridge and Gondor being Rome). So, the \npeople East and South of that kingdom are described along the lines of \nthe people in our world. England in the first half of the 20th century \nwas simply far less multi-ethnic than it is today.\n\nLet me try this from another angle. Tolkien and Lewis definitely \nharbored politically incorrect attitudes about non-Western Europeans. \nBut in their world, it was unnecessary to have any other attitude. It's \nnot that dark-skinned characters are portrayed as evil. They simply \ndon't exist except as fodder. The ultimate allies of Sauron are not \nEasterlings or elephant riding-Southerners. They are Western Kings...the \nRing Wraiths. The default \"race\" are English-type people (the novel's \noriginal audience). Everyone else is from somewhere else, naturally, and \nso they look different. Unless he chose to make those other people \ngreen, he has a limited palette to choose from. That's not racism. It's \nsimply not multi-ethnic. They viewed non-western Europeans as \"those out \nthere\". It might be racially exclusive \"in-effect\" but not true Racism \nper se.\n\nWolfe does the same thing in tBotNS. There are very tall people. There's \na green man. But I can't recall any black men, good or bad, in the \nstory. They don't exist for the story, right? But because Wolfe's \ngeography is generally racially homogeneous, the charge of racism \ndoesn't come up. If Disney had done Song of the South entirely with \nwhite people the NAACP it would not have denounced it and it would not \nbe controversial today. The Harry Potter stories has a \"Dark Lord\", but \nall the non-white characters are relegated to bit roles. And of those \nthere is nothing especially distinguished about them beyond their racial \nfeatures. They are fodder in a multi-cultural war. In a culture of \naggrieved advocacy groups, we've become thin-skinned about presenting \nracial differences at all in literature. I'm not sure that's better." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-08T15:53:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D5E6A.4040001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe has confirmed that his geographic model for the Commonwealth\nwas South America and I think Nessus as Buenos Aires. But I think he also\nhas said that his inspiration for the governmental forms were Byzantine.\n \nBuenos Aires is not known for a complete surrounding wall but Byzantium was.\nAn elaborate double wall formed from the earlier Severin Wall surrounded by \nthe later Constantinian Wall. Plus it had many formally named gates such as \nXerolophus, Prodromos and Melantius, etc.\n \nI consider it possible that we are not meant to strain too hard to discern\nthe practical purpose of the wall but rather to recognize the historical\nreference. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C12C376.7030602@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T23:15:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<009801cb0535$44a10540$9ace4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/06/10 06:01, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJane Delawney wrote:\n[snip]\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(further snippage)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed,\nOssipago would have transported the party 'back' in time (using\nSeverian's perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snip]\n\nI think not. There is a much simpler explanation. When Sev fled Ushas and\nwent backwards in time, he went only as as far as he *could* go. That is, he\nwent back in time only to just before the creation of the White Fountain.\nMore properly, to the point just before the first light from the Fountain\nreached Urth (p-353). He was unable to use the Corridors to escape the tomb\nuntil the first light of it reached him (p-358). In other words, Sev's\npersonal travels in time were bound by the light of the New Sun.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok and many thanks Roy, that's certainly a plausible reading, probably a \ngreat deal more plausible than my initial assumption!\n\nHowever I'd be very interested indeed if, given this (I seen now) well \nsupported viewpoint ie. that Sev's time travels are restricted by the \nNew Sun itself, you or anyone else has any view on what exactly Ossipago \nis talking about! Evidently he intended (until forbidden by his former \ncharge, now 'boss' I guess) to take the whole party *somewhere* else in \ntime, which 'would not be a better place' for Severian in particular.\n\nWolfe doesn't include this kind of stuff by accident. Where/when was \nOssipago proposing to lead them? Is there any evidence? I'm sure I must \nhave overlooked something.\n\nWould be most grateful if anyone has any information on this.\n\n\nkind regards\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2010-06-11T23:55:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B101A.7040105@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a wonderful, evocative place, \"off topic a little.\" Your bringing\nup The Last Temptation of Christ has reminded me of Judee Sill's\noften-covered \"Jesus Was A Cross-Maker\":\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFQcfiPv6wg&NR=1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 03/06/10 23:21, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "while commenting upon:\n\nOn Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins\n“wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "?I think this has been covered, right”\n\n?1) ?Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and\nJesus.\n?2) ?Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to\nJesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heartburn being an understatement no doubt! Regarding this, I feel that one\nof the most interesting passages of all occurs toward the end of 'The Urth\nof the New Sun'. [I know there are those who do not care for the sequel, but\nWolfe wrote it also, to continue Severian's story, and so I feel it should\nat least be mentioned.]\n\nSeverian has ?traveled via the Corridors of Time to the ancient past of the\nStone Town, where he has been taken by its people for (what appears to\napproximate to) a solar deity. To the extent that when he attempts seriously\nto leave, they kill him in order to keep him with them for ever. The whole\nreferring back of course to the episode in *Conciliator* where we first get\na heads up that Severian and the vivimancer Apu-Punchau are in some sense\nthe same person (or Copenhagen-interpretation iterations of the same\nentity).\n\nSeverian wakes up in Apu-Punchau's tomb, with the dead body of his 'other\nself' alongside him; he is baffled (as usual!) and frightened, but\nfortunately the white-clad figures of the Hierodules are there to explain\nthings to him, or to help him construct his own explanation. During the\ncourse of this Ossipago offers to take all of them back to a 'better time';\nan offer that is refused. Over the page Famulimus tells Severian that if\nthey had allowed Ossipago to do this, he would have taken them back to an\nearlier time and 'That would not have been a better place for you, I think.'\nAll this after the two non-machine Hierodules have prostrated themselves\nbefore the 'resurrected' Severian, 'the head of his “race and its savior'.\n\nOne is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed, Ossipago\nwould have transported the party 'back' in time (using Severian's\nperspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection” Famulimus forbids\nit, thus preventing this final merging of timelines. On this interpretation,\nwhile Severian grows and evolves to become a kind of savior, the Powers do\nnot allow that final identification of Severian with Christ himself. On the\nother hand, since Severian/the Sleeper is now ?a practised wanderer of the\nCorridors of Time, nowhere is it excluded that somewhere along the line,\nwith his further internal spiritual evolution perhaps, this identification\ncould happen. Maybe Famulimus is saying 'Not right now' (that is, Severian's\n'now'), rather than 'No way that's wrong and always will be.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again\nquote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:\n\"Many of us have read so often that he was a \"humble carpenter\"...The\nman who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The\nonly\nobject we\nare specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a\nwhip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a\ntorturer...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. ?But it doesn't mean Severian is\nlike Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus\ndid\nfor ours. ?Severian is far from perfect.\n\nWolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a\nsavior at all, the carpenter who made the cross." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. To veer off topic a little - ?there is another writer - a devout\nOrthodox (big 'O') Christian - who has (to the best of my recollection) used\nexactly this last notion in writing of Christ himself. Nikos Kazantzakis in\n'The Last Temptation of Christ' has Christ as an apprentice carpenter\nbuilding crosses, instruments of torture and death, for the Occupying Power.\n(I will not comment on this; I'm just relaying the information.) Does the\nGuild of Seekers for Truth and Penitence have their apprentices help to\nbuild their 'apparatus'?\n\nIt *is* off topic of course; but still, since it is many years since I read\nthat book please correct me if I have remembered LTOC wrong.\n\nI don't think I have though - It's so unlikely I'd have invented this idea\nmyself back then.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<009c01cb09f8$b1adfc20$40d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-12T06:29:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C12C376.7030602@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\nHowever I'd be very interested indeed if, given this (I seen now) well\nsupported viewpoint ie. that Sev's time travels are restricted by the\nNew Sun itself, you or anyone else has any view on what exactly Ossipago\nis talking about! Evidently he intended (until forbidden by his former\ncharge, now 'boss' I guess) to take the whole party *somewhere* else in\ntime, which 'would not be a better place' for Severian in particular.\n\nWolfe doesn't include this kind of stuff by accident. Where/when was\nOssipago proposing to lead them? Is there any evidence? I'm sure I must\nhave overlooked something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ossipago was afraid that the first light from the White Fountain would\npenetrate a chink in the tomb and revive the strangled corpse -- which is\nexactly what happened after BF&O left. If the two versions of Sev in the\ntomb had touched or come too close, one would have been cancelled out. The\none who would have been cancelled out was the newly-created eidolon of Sev.\n\n(The rule is: whenever two versions of the same person come too close, the\none with the deeper roots in the time period in which they meet dominates,\nand the other ceases to exist. That is why Sev lived and the summoned\napparition [or whatever word people prefer; I don't want to get distracted\non another tangent] of Apu went out with a bang when they grappled in the\nruins of the stone town when Sev was on the way to Thrax. The strangled\ncorpse in the tomb had lived in Apu's era for years; the eidolon BF&O had\ncreated had been there for only hours.)\n\nWhere or When Ossipago lead them is secondary, but BF&O were on a journey\nbackwards in time, from after the arrival of the New Sun to their first\n(from their perspective) meeting with Sev on The Ship to (so they thought at\nthe time) their last at Baldander's castle. I suppose that is why Barbatus\nsaid that Ossipago would have taken Sev to an earlier time that would not\nhave been a better place for Sev. Time before the creation/arrival of light\nfrom the White Fountain would have been bad for Sev because he would be\nstuck there, powerless to travel the Corridors of Time. Plus, in any time\nperiod before Typhon, there would have been nothing wrong with the Old Sun.\nA New Sun would at best have been superfluous and might even have been\ndangerous to the New Sun, because the Old Sun had the deeper roots. See\nabove.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C13B21A.5060402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-12T16:13:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<009c01cb09f8$b1adfc20$40d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/12/2010 1:29 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOssipago was afraid that the first light from the White Fountain would\npenetrate a chink in the tomb and revive the strangled corpse -- which is\nexactly what happened after BF&O left. If the two versions of Sev in the\ntomb had touched or come too close, one would have been cancelled out. The\none who would have been cancelled out was the newly-created eidolon of Sev." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would that be bad? Does the trio have some influence over the \neidolon of a resurrected Severian that they would not have over the \nall-meat resurrected Severian?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01cb0a5c$4606a260$b1d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-12T18:22:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C13B21A.5060402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nOssipago was afraid that the first light from the White Fountain would\npenetrate a chink in the tomb and revive the strangled corpse -- which\nis\nexactly what happened after BF&O left. If the two versions of Sev in the\ntomb had touched or come too close, one would have been cancelled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "one who would have been cancelled out was the newly-created eidolon of\nSev." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would that be bad?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously it would be bad for the newly-created eidolon, because he would\ncease to exist. That eidolon walked the Corridors to get back to Ushas,\nwhere he eventually penned his second manuscript, the account we are reading\nof how he came to be in that tomb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does the trio have some influence over the\neidolon of a resurrected Severian that they would not have over the\nall-meat resurrected Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't answer that. But the all-meat Sev, resurrected by the light of the\nWhite Fountain, must eventually become the Apu that young Sev grappled with\nin the stone town in the first manuscript. That's why Famulimus warned the\neidolon Sev not to destroy the corpse; it would change future history, so to\nspeak, and the two Sevs in that tomb could not live in the same place at the\nsame time. I suspect that after the eidolon went to Ushas and became solid\nflesh, he went on to travel in time to perform various feats attributed to\nthe Conciliator that our Sev had not yet personally experienced. He may also\nheve tinkered in the life of his younger self. (Someone caused that\nnecropolis mausoleum to be built and messed with the coffins in it.)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C13DBA6.8080006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-12T19:10:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<001d01cb0a5c$4606a260$b1d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/12/2010 1:22 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ossipago was afraid that the first light from the White Fountain would\npenetrate a chink in the tomb and revive the strangled corpse -- which\nis\nexactly what happened after BF&O left. If the two versions of Sev in the\ntomb had touched or come too close, one would have been cancelled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\none who would have been cancelled out was the newly-created eidolon of\nSev." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would that be bad?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obviously it would be bad for the newly-created eidolon, because he would\ncease to exist. That eidolon walked the Corridors to get back to Ushas,\nwhere he eventually penned his second manuscript, the account we are reading\nof how he came to be in that tomb." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat \ngo back to the future?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501cb0b42$3b98ae40$c6cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-13T21:48:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C13DBA6.8080006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nObviously it would be bad for the newly-created eidolon, because he\nwould\ncease to exist. That eidolon walked the Corridors to get back to Ushas,\nwhere he eventually penned his second manuscript, the account we are\nreading\nof how he came to be in that tomb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat\ngo back to the future?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The strangled meat didn't know what the eidolon knew; all that had just been\nlearned from BF&O in the tomb. The eidolon had to get away from him or die.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C157105.8060303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T00:00:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<001501cb0b42$3b98ae40$c6cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/13/2010 4:48 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Obviously it would be bad for the newly-created eidolon, because he\nwould\ncease to exist. That eidolon walked the Corridors to get back to Ushas,\nwhere he eventually penned his second manuscript, the account we are\nreading\nof how he came to be in that tomb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat\ngo back to the future?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The strangled meat didn't know what the eidolon knew; all that had just been\nlearned from BF&O in the tomb. The eidolon had to get away from him or die." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "okay - so there seems to be a fairly short distance limit on BFO's \nmethod of branching off an eidolon, so normally they are only made of \ndead people for practical and safety reasons (poor badger!). Severian \nhas a habit of coming back from the dead, so they want to make the \neidolon and send him on his way before the light of the White Fountain \nrevives the strangled body and causes a merger hazard. Sound right so far?\n\nSo...why do they wait until the White Fountain's light is almost there, \ninstead of showing up a week early? Perhaps because the new eidolon \nstill needs the White Fountain's light to enter the Corridors of Time \nagain? And they don't know for sure that the WF will revive the \nstrangled meat, and they can't spare a week farting around the Stone \nTown keeping Sev from getting strangled again, so they cut it close, \nhoping the anxiety at escaping horrid death and being faced with it \nagain almost immediately will motivate Severian to head back uptime \nright away?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005201cb0b7e$99897b60$bacf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-14T05:00:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C157105.8060303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote, quoted, wrote:\nWhy couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat\ngo back to the future?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The strangled meat didn't know what the eidolon knew; all that had just\nbeen\nlearned from BF&O in the tomb. The eidolon had to get away from him or\ndie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "okay - so there seems to be a fairly short distance limit on BFO's\nmethod of branching off an eidolon, so normally they are only made of\ndead people for practical and safety reasons (poor badger!). Severian\nhas a habit of coming back from the dead, so they want to make the\neidolon and send him on his way before the light of the White Fountain\nrevives the strangled body and causes a merger hazard. Sound right so far?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Close enough, except that eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So...why do they wait until the White Fountain's light is almost there,\ninstead of showing up a week early? Perhaps because the new eidolon\nstill needs the White Fountain's light to enter the Corridors of Time\nagain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the eidolon must have the WF's light to use the Corridors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And they don't know for sure that the WF will revive the\nstrangled meat, and they can't spare a week farting around the Stone\nTown keeping Sev from getting strangled again, so they cut it close,\nhoping the anxiety at escaping horrid death and being faced with it\nagain almost immediately will motivate Severian to head back uptime\nright away?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They weren't interested in keeping Sev (as Apu, Head of Day) from being\nstrangled by the townspeople, if that's what you mean. That tomb had to be\nbuilt and a body put in it for future history to pan out as it had panned\nout. The strangled meat, a sun god, had to rise again to make the myth\n(358-59). And he did rise again and leave the tomb (365-66). He also had a\nfuture (the revived strangled meat's personal future) date with young Sev\nand Hildegrin in the stone town.\n\nEidolon Sev didn't need much more motivation to head back uptime. Besides,\nhis new eidolon body looked exactly like that of the guy on the funeral\nbronze in his boyhood mausoleum, and Sev (from his personal perspective) had\nnot yet been laid to rest there. He had places to go, things to do.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C15BDBB.4080607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T05:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<005201cb0b7e$99897b60$bacf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 12:00 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote, quoted, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat\ngo back to the future?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The strangled meat didn't know what the eidolon knew; all that had just\nbeen\nlearned from BF&O in the tomb. The eidolon had to get away from him or\ndie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "okay - so there seems to be a fairly short distance limit on BFO's\nmethod of branching off an eidolon, so normally they are only made of\ndead people for practical and safety reasons (poor badger!). Severian\nhas a habit of coming back from the dead, so they want to make the\neidolon and send him on his way before the light of the White Fountain\nrevives the strangled body and causes a merger hazard. Sound right so far?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Close enough, except that eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are they? Aren't some made from a living person's impression of the \nsubject, rather than from the subject's corpse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They weren't interested in keeping Sev (as Apu, Head of Day) from being\nstrangled by the townspeople, if that's what you mean. That tomb had to be\nbuilt and a body put in it for future history to pan out as it had panned\nout. The strangled meat, a sun god, had to rise again to make the myth\n(358-59). And he did rise again and leave the tomb (365-66). He also had a\nfuture (the revived strangled meat's personal future) date with young Sev\nand Hildegrin in the stone town." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did Severian merge with the meat? I thought it was only a problem \neidolons - the two Gunnies are both meat and they don't merge. Or did \nthe Cumaean make an eidolon of the meat, that eidolon merged with \nSeverian, killing Hildegrin, and then everyone went home leaving the\nold meat still there?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b001cb0be8$60cc21a0$92ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-14T17:38:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<4C15BDBB.4080607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Close enough, except that eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. \"While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, 'You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!'\" (p-361)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't some made from a living person's impression of the\nsubject, rather than from the subject's corpse?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume you are talking about the mind of the eidolon, not the body. Some\neidolons get their imprint from living people, others from \"remembrance\" or\n\"reflected thought\" in a subject's dead mind (359)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They weren't interested in keeping Sev (as Apu, Head of Day) from being\nstrangled by the townspeople, if that's what you mean. That tomb had to\nbe\nbuilt and a body put in it for future history to pan out as it had\npanned\nout. The strangled meat, a sun god, had to rise again to make the myth\n(358-59). And he did rise again and leave the tomb (365-66). He also had\na\nfuture (the revived strangled meat's personal future) date with young\nSev\nand Hildegrin in the stone town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How did Severian merge with the meat? I thought it was only a problem\neidolons - the two Gunnies are both meat and they don't merge. Or did\nthe Cumaean make an eidolon of the meat, that eidolon merged with\nSeverian, killing Hildegrin, and then everyone went home leaving the\nold meat still there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure I understand the question. When young Sev encountered Apu in\nthe ruins of the stone town, Apu disappeared in a flash like lightning. So\ndid Hildegrin, but Hildegrin was just collateral damage. Apu left no corpse\nbehind. He had been summoned by the Cumaean, but she made no eidolon.\n\nNeither of the two Gunnies were eidolons. They were two iterations of the\nsame person at different ages, possible only because of time travel. As\nGunnie said on The Ship, \"Here it's not one nor the other. We're between the\n suns and the years too, so there can be two Gunnies with no danger to\nanybody. Or a dozen.\" (185)\n\nIn that section, Sev also gave some half-ass conjectures about that\nencounter with Apu and Hildegrin, but that was before his talk with BF&O in\nthe tomb.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-14T20:03:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) heartburn was: Re: travelling north", "in_reply_to": "<00b001cb0be8$60cc21a0$92ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Close enough, except that eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are they?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. \"While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, 'You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!'\" (p-361)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This suggests that they *can* make eidolons of whoever they want, but they \navoid making eidolons of the living to reduce the probability of such \nunfortunate encounters.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }