Subject: (urth) travelling north

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:03:20 +0000

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>

"FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually 
advanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly 
spiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus, 
Severian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about 
is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its 
spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which 
plagued our pagan ancestors."

The Book of the Long Sun is set in the same universe, and in it Silk has a vision of a hero riding into a city, greeted by supporters waving fan-shaped leaves.  (I can't remember the page offhand.)  Surely this represents Palm Sunday, suggesting that Jesus existed in this universe?

- Gerry Quinn

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:04:30 +0000

-----Original Message-----

- Gerry Quinn

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:49:47 +0000

On 6/3/2010 2:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
 >The Book of the Long Sun is set in the same universe,
 >and in it Silk has a vision of a hero riding into a city,
 >greeted by supporters waving fan-shaped leaves.
 >(I can't remember the page offhand.)
 >Surely this represents Palm Sunday,
 >suggesting that Jesus existed in this universe?
 >-Gerry Quinn

He had this vision during his enlightenment by the Outsider (presumably 
the Increate). Surely the Outsider is the Lord of all the Universes, and 
could offer a vision from any of them. Still, I've never been able to 
piece together any narrative value from saying that Jesus never came in 
Severian's universe. As was recently pointed out, the world would be 
quite different if there had never been a Christianity, and Severian's 
past is very much like our own.

IMO Too much is made of Wolfe's personal Christian beliefs in his most 
of his fiction. I don't think he tries to make his fiction conform to 
correct theology. I recall that in an interview he obliquely used Orson 
Scott Card as an example of a writer that puts his faith into all of his 
writings and said that he himself did not do that.

"The Concilliator" is more of a Gnostic concept and a Gnostic Christian 
concept. I don't believe Wolfe is Gnostic even though it is reasonable 
to assert that what _The Chronicles of Narnia_ were to Orthodox 
Christianity, the entire Sun Cycle is to Gnostic Christianity. Wolfe has 
said that Severian is a "Christ-figure". Well, Mithras is a 
Christ-figure. Hercules was, in some 1st or 2nd century paen, called 
"The Savior of the World".

J.

PS Before anyone objects, I realize that Paul used the term "mediator" 
in Galatians and 1 Timothy, but in Galatians he says that with Christ 
there was no mediator between God and Mankind, and in 1 Timothy he seems 
to be using the term ironically to dispense with complicated concepts of 
mediators in ala angels, the Law of Moses, and (I think) early 
Gnosticism (in 1 Tim. he also refers to "profane and vain babblings, and 
oppositions of science falsely so called" and "myths and endless 
genealogies [aeons]").

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:54:51 +0000

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wolfe has said that
> Severian is a "Christ-figure".

Actually, Wolfe has specifically _denied_ that any of his heroes are
Christ-figures, and prefers the term "Christian figure."

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:56:28 +0000

On 6/3/2010 2:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Wolfe has said that
Well, even more so then.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:07:36 +0000

I think that sort of says it all, right?  "Reconciliation."  Orthodox
(little-o) Christians certainly believe that Christ "reconciled" God and man
which is more or less the way Severian describes his role.

Incidentally, this is how the word "reconciled" pops up in the Easter Vigil
liturgy:

"How blessed is this night, when earth and heaven are joined and man is
reconciled to God.

Holy Father, accept our evening sacrifice, the offering of this candle in
your honor. May it shine continually to drive away all darkness. *May
Christ, the Morning Star who knows no setting*, find it ever burning--he who
gives his light to all creation, and who lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen."

It does not go on, "You, the hero who slays the black worm that devours the
Sun"...but it might.

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:56 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:09:00 +0000

>> Christ-figures, and prefers the term "Christian figure."
On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again 
quote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:
"Many of us have read so often that he was a "humble carpenter"...The 
man who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only 
object we are specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but 
a whip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being 
a torturer..."

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:15:25 +0000

----- Original Message ----

On 6/3/2010 2:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:
>>>> Wolfe has said that Severian is a "Christ-figure".

Here's the quotation (or one version).  The "you" is James Jordan.

"And as you've said in your letters, I don't think of
Severian as being a Christ figure; I think of Severian as being a
Christian figure. He is a man who has been born into a very
perverse background, who is gradually trying to become better. I
think that all of us have somewhere in us an instinct to try and
become better. Some of us defeat it thoroughly. We kill that part
of ourselves, just as we kill the child in ourselves. It is very
closely related to the child in us."

http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html

> On the other hand, the intended parallels do pile up. To once again quote Castle of the Otter/Castle of Days:
> "Many of us have read so often that he was a "humble carpenter"...The man who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only object we
> are specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a whip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a torturer..."

That's a good one, which I'd forgotten.  But it doesn't mean Severian is like Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did for ours.  Severian is far from perfect.

Wolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a savior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:19:06 +0000

I think this has been covered, right?

1)  Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and Jesus.
2)  Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus.

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>wrote:

> > "Many of us have read so often that he was a "humble carpenter"...The man
> who built the built the cross was as much a carpenter too...The only object
> we
> > are specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a
> whip...Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a
> torturer..."
>
> That's a good one, which I'd forgotten.  But it doesn't mean Severian is
> like Christ or that he did for his universe what Wolfe believes Jesus did
> for ours.  Severian is far from perfect.
>
> Wolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a savior
> at all, the carpenter who made the cross.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:21:20 +0000

I think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn.

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1)? Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and Jesus.
> 2)? Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus.
>
>> >>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:49 PM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com> ?wrote:
>> Here's the quotation (or one version). ?The "you" is James Jordan.
>>
>> > object we
>> That's a good one, which I'd forgotten. ?But it doesn't mean Severian is
>> for ours. ?Severian is far from perfect.
>>
>> Wolfe also points out a parallel to someone who was presumably not a
>> savior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.
>>
>> Jerry Friedman
>>
>>
>>
>>

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:12:11 +0000

I think the contention (for me) is that although #1 is true I do not 
think...

3) Wolfe necessarily sees Severian as a *figurative* stand-in for the 
Jesus he believes in.

The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic ones not 
Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act, and achieve, within their 
worlds as the Gnostic Christ does. Not as the Johanine Christ acts.

On 6/3/2010 5:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins<john.watkins04 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Jerry Friedman<jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:43:21 +0000

Interesting. Can you elaborate on the distinction?

(I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.)

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 18:12:11 -0500
From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) travelling north
Message-ID: <4C0836CB.3070100 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 04:47:49 +0000

>David Stockhoff wrote:

Well, for starters, the Gnostic Christ does not save anyone 
individually. He saves mankind as a whole through the example of his 
enlightenment. This is closer to the salvation of Silk and Severian than 
Jesus. Additionally "the Christ" is merely the male half of God 
(although even that term has a somewhat different meaning). With the 
female half they form the syzygy of their particular Aeon. This is 
Severian and Thecla. Silk and Hyacinth are a retelling of the gnostic 
story of Simon Magus and Helena. Helena was the Ennoia who had fallen 
into the lower aeons and become trapped in matter. "The Father", 
manifesting himself as Simon Magus, "The Son", finds her in a brothel 
suffering abuse, and rescues her. There's also Ophis, the serpent, mixed 
up in the story. It would difficult, but take fewer words, to detail the 
ways that New Sun and Long Son are inconsistant with what we know of the 
teachings of  guys like Tatian and Valentinus or the group founded on 
their teachings known as the Severians.

J

---

From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:03:54 +0000

> I think it's #2 that gives some people heartburn.
while commenting upon:

> >  2)  Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to Jesus.

Heartburn being an understatement no doubt! Regarding this, I feel that 
one of the most interesting passages of all occurs toward the end of 
'The Urth of the New Sun'. [I know there are those who do not care for 
the sequel, but Wolfe wrote it also, to continue Severian's story, and 
so I feel it should at least be mentioned.]

Severian has  traveled via the Corridors of Time to the ancient past of 
the Stone Town, where he has been taken by its people for (what appears 
to approximate to) a solar deity. To the extent that when he attempts 
seriously to leave, they kill him in order to keep him with them for 
ever. The whole referring back of course to the episode in *Conciliator* 
where we first get a heads up that Severian and the vivimancer 
Apu-Punchau are in some sense the same person (or 
Copenhagen-interpretation iterations of the same entity).

Severian wakes up in Apu-Punchau's tomb, with the dead body of his 
'other self' alongside him; he is baffled (as usual!) and frightened, 
but fortunately the white-clad figures of the Hierodules are there to 
explain things to him, or to help him construct his own explanation. 
During the course of this Ossipago offers to take all of them back to a 
'better time'; an offer that is refused. Over the page Famulimus tells 
Severian that if they had allowed Ossipago to do this, he would have 
taken them back to an earlier time and 'That would not have been a 
better place for you, I think.' All this after the two non-machine 
Hierodules have prostrated themselves before the 'resurrected' Severian, 
'the head of his  race and its savior'.

One is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed, 
Ossipago would have transported the party 'back' in time (using 
Severian's perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection? 
Famulimus forbids it, thus preventing this final merging of timelines. 
On this interpretation, while Severian grows and evolves to become a 
kind of savior, the Powers do not allow that final identification of 
Severian with Christ himself. On the other hand, since Severian/the 
Sleeper is now  a practised wanderer of the Corridors of Time, nowhere 
is it excluded that somewhere along the line, with his further internal 
spiritual evolution perhaps, this identification could happen. Maybe 
Famulimus is saying 'Not right now' (that is, Severian's 'now'), rather 
than 'No way that's wrong and always will be.'
>>> savior at all, the carpenter who made the cross.
Hmm. To veer off topic a little -  there is another writer - a devout 
Orthodox (big 'O') Christian - who has (to the best of my recollection) 
used exactly this last notion in writing of Christ himself. Nikos 
Kazantzakis in 'The Last Temptation of Christ' has Christ as an 
apprentice carpenter building crosses, instruments of torture and death, 
for the Occupying Power. (I will not comment on this; I'm just relaying 
the information.) Does the Guild of Seekers for Truth and Penitence have 
their apprentices help to build their 'apparatus'?

It *is* off topic of course; but still, since it is many years since I 
read that book please correct me if I have remembered LTOC wrong.

I don't think I have though - It's so unlikely I'd have invented this 
idea myself back then.

regards

JD

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 03:15:50 +0000

Severian is a Descent of Christ.

.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 05:01:00 +0000

Jane Delawney wrote:
[snip]
> Severian's perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection?
[snip]

I think not. There is a much simpler explanation. When Sev fled Ushas and
went backwards in time, he went only as as far as he *could* go. That is, he
went back in time only to just before the creation of the White Fountain.
More properly, to the point just before the first light from the Fountain
reached Urth (p-353). He was unable to use the Corridors to escape the tomb
until the first light of it reached him (p-358). In other words, Sev's
personal travels in time were bound by the light of the New Sun.

-Roy

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:09:52 +0000

...
> Regarding this, I feel that one of the most interesting passages of all
> occurs toward the end of 'The Urth of the New Sun'. [I know there
> are those who do not care for the sequel, but Wolfe wrote it also, to
> continue Severian's story, and so I feel it should at least be
> mentioned.]

I'm one of those people, as I mentioned recently, but please disregard my feeling completely.  I wouldn't want my dislike of a certain Wolfe book to discourage anyone from saying anything on a list about Wolfe (or anywhere).
Jerry Friedman

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:28:10 +0000

>And Tolkien would weep a silent tear to see his work called "allegorical."

Hmph, then he shouldn't have had created all those bad guys as dark-skinned
guys from south and east riding elephants. Nor should he have allowed "eagles"
to save the day at the end of his two big (hobbit-involved) wars. 		 	   		  
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:03:32 +0000

>Hmph, then he shouldn't have had created all those bad guys as
>dark-skinned guys from south and east riding elephants.

Only the guys from the south ride elephants.  The humans from the east aren't described as dark-skinned, as I recall.  Maybe you're talking about the orcs, though.

>Nor should
>he have allowed "eagles" to save the day at the end of his two big
>(hobbit-involved) wars.                           

If people have suggested that the eagles represent the United States, that's just horrible.  I'm not going to dispute that the eagles might have led people into such interpretations, though.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:07:10 +0000

Maybe they represented Romans!  Or Germans!

It makes perfect sense for Tolkien to equate American military might with
the servants of Manwe.  I mean, he completely approved of all actions taken
by the Allies during the wars.

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Only the guys from the south ride elephants.  The humans from the east
> aren't described as dark-skinned, as I recall.  Maybe you're talking about
> the orcs, though.
>
> >Nor should
> If people have suggested that the eagles represent the United States,
> that's just horrible.  I'm not going to dispute that the eagles might have
> led people into such interpretations, though.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>
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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:28:22 +0000

>Only the guys from the south ride elephants.  The humans from the east aren't
>described as dark-skinned, as I recall.  Maybe you're talking about the orcs, though.
>Nor should he have allowed "eagles" to save the day at the end of his two big
>(hobbit-involved) wars.                           
If people have suggested that the eagles represent the United States, that's just
>horrible.  I'm not going to dispute that the eagles might have led people into
>such interpretations, though.
Jerry Friedman

Well, I am a Tolkein lover and was only being tongue-in-cheek critical. Still, he
couldn't help being a man shaped by his time and his culture. Why couldn't his 
southern elephant riders be blondes or red haired with freckles? Why were his 
"Easterlings":
 
>...Men who lived in the east of Middle-earth, who mostly fought under Morgoth
>and Sauron.The Easterlings were short and muscular; they were dark of skin, eye,
>and hair. .they are armed with long halberds, scimitars and rectangular metal
> shields. Their armour is inscribed with a script which resembles Tengwar mixed
>with Persian...In early design concepts, the Easterlings wore turbans and their
>helmets bore crescent moons, but director Peter Jackson requested that references
> to real-world cultures be avoided.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlings
 
And I would think a British author writing during and just after WWII would use hawks or 
harriers or falcons or any bird of prey other than eagles if he was hoping to avoid
all hint of allegory. 		 	   		  
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:02:34 +0000

> harriers or falcons or any bird of prey other than eagles if he was hoping to avoid

The Eagles were a motif of Tolkien's Valinor from the beginning. It is 
hardly likely that when the Eagles rescued Bilbo and the Dwarves in The 
Hobbit, Tolkien intended that as some sort of patriotic statement.

Tolkien's stated purpose in creating his world was to create an English 
mythology. So he was drawing from the myths of the people who settled 
England...Scandinavian and Germanic people (with some Finland mythology 
thrown in for good measure). Avoiding terminology such as "Fair Folk" 
(pale people) for elves along with their pronounced physical height and 
strength was really unavoidable. Tolkien compared the overall geography 
and breadth of western Middle Earth to being essentially that of Western 
Europe (the Shire being Cambridge and  Gondor being Rome). So, the 
people East and South of that kingdom are described along the lines of 
the people in our world. England in the first half of the 20th century 
was simply far less multi-ethnic than it is today.

Let me try this from another angle. Tolkien and Lewis definitely 
harbored politically incorrect attitudes about non-Western Europeans. 
But in their world, it was unnecessary to have any other attitude. It's 
not that dark-skinned characters are portrayed as evil. They simply 
don't exist except as fodder. The ultimate allies of Sauron are not 
Easterlings or elephant riding-Southerners. They are Western Kings...the 
Ring Wraiths. The default "race" are English-type people (the novel's 
original audience). Everyone else is from somewhere else, naturally, and 
so they look different. Unless he chose to make those other people 
green, he has a limited palette to choose from. That's not racism. It's 
simply not multi-ethnic. They viewed non-western Europeans as "those out 
there". It might be racially exclusive "in-effect" but not true Racism 
per se.

Wolfe does the same thing in tBotNS. There are very tall people. There's 
a green man. But I can't recall any black men, good or bad, in the 
story. They don't exist for the story, right? But because Wolfe's 
geography is generally racially homogeneous, the charge of racism 
doesn't come up. If Disney had done Song of the South entirely with 
white people the NAACP it would not have denounced it and it would not 
be controversial today. The Harry Potter stories has a "Dark Lord", but 
all the non-white characters are relegated to bit roles. And of those 
there is nothing especially distinguished about them beyond their racial 
features. They are fodder in a multi-cultural war.  In a culture of 
aggrieved advocacy groups, we've become thin-skinned about presenting 
racial differences at all in literature. I'm not sure that's better.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:53:17 +0000

I think Wolfe has confirmed that his geographic model for the Commonwealth
was South America and I think Nessus as Buenos Aires. But I think he also
has said that his inspiration for the governmental forms were Byzantine.
 
Buenos Aires is not known for a complete surrounding wall but Byzantium was.
An elaborate double wall formed from the earlier Severin Wall surrounded by 
the later Constantinian Wall. Plus it had many formally named gates such as 
Xerolophus, Prodromos and Melantius, etc.
 
I consider it possible that we are not meant to strain too hard to discern
the practical purpose of the wall but rather to recognize the historical
reference. 		 	   		  
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From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 23:15:02 +0000

> [snip]
(further snippage)
> personal travels in time were bound by the light of the New Sun.
Ok and many thanks Roy, that's certainly a plausible reading, probably a 
great deal more plausible than my initial assumption!

However I'd be very interested indeed if, given this (I seen now) well 
supported viewpoint ie. that Sev's time travels are restricted by the 
New Sun itself, you or anyone else has any view on what exactly Ossipago 
is talking about! Evidently he intended (until forbidden by his former 
charge, now 'boss' I guess) to take the whole party *somewhere* else in 
time, which 'would not be a better place' for Severian in particular.

Wolfe doesn't include this kind of stuff by accident. Where/when was 
Ossipago proposing to lead them? Is there any evidence? I'm sure I must 
have overlooked something.

Would be most grateful if anyone has any information on this.

kind regards

JD

---

From: Allan Anderson <rubel at goosemoon.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 23:55:08 +0000

It's a wonderful, evocative place, "off topic a little." Your bringing
up The Last Temptation of Christ has reminded me of Judee Sill's
often-covered "Jesus Was A Cross-Maker":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFQcfiPv6wg&NR=1

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:19 PM, John Watkins<john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> “wrote:
>
>> > ?I think this has been covered, right”
>> >
>> > ?1) ?Obviously there are intentional parallels between Severian and
>> > Jesus.
>> > ?2) ?Obviously Severian is not a literal stand-in for or equivalent to
>> > Jesus.
>>
>
>
> Heartburn being an understatement no doubt! Regarding this, I feel that one
> of the most interesting passages of all occurs toward the end of 'The Urth
> of the New Sun'. [I know there are those who do not care for the sequel, but
> Wolfe wrote it also, to continue Severian's story, and so I feel it should
> at least be mentioned.]
>
> Severian has ?traveled via the Corridors of Time to the ancient past of the
> Stone Town, where he has been taken by its people for (what appears to
> approximate to) a solar deity. To the extent that when he attempts seriously
> to leave, they kill him in order to keep him with them for ever. The whole
> referring back of course to the episode in *Conciliator* where we first get
> a heads up that Severian and the vivimancer Apu-Punchau are in some sense
> the same person (or Copenhagen-interpretation iterations of the same
> entity).
>
> Severian wakes up in Apu-Punchau's tomb, with the dead body of his 'other
> self' alongside him; he is baffled (as usual!) and frightened, but
> fortunately the white-clad figures of the Hierodules are there to explain
> things to him, or to help him construct his own explanation. During the
> course of this Ossipago offers to take all of them back to a 'better time';
> an offer that is refused. Over the page Famulimus tells Severian that if
> they had allowed Ossipago to do this, he would have taken them back to an
> earlier time and 'That would not have been a better place for you, I think.'
> All this after the two non-machine Hierodules have prostrated themselves
> before the 'resurrected' Severian, 'the head of his “race and its savior'.
>
> One is left with supposition. Are we to gather that if so allowed, Ossipago
> would have transported the party 'back' in time (using Severian's
> perspective) to another tomb, and another Resurrection” Famulimus forbids
> it, thus preventing this final merging of timelines. On this interpretation,
> while Severian grows and evolves to become a kind of savior, the Powers do
> not allow that final identification of Severian with Christ himself. On the
> other hand, since Severian/the Sleeper is now ?a practised wanderer of the
> Corridors of Time, nowhere is it excluded that somewhere along the line,
> with his further internal spiritual evolution perhaps, this identification
> could happen. Maybe Famulimus is saying 'Not right now' (that is, Severian's
> 'now'), rather than 'No way that's wrong and always will be.'
>>>>>
> Hmm. To veer off topic a little - ?there is another writer - a devout
> Orthodox (big 'O') Christian - who has (to the best of my recollection) used
> exactly this last notion in writing of Christ himself. Nikos Kazantzakis in
> 'The Last Temptation of Christ' has Christ as an apprentice carpenter
> building crosses, instruments of torture and death, for the Occupying Power.
> (I will not comment on this; I'm just relaying the information.) Does the
> Guild of Seekers for Truth and Penitence have their apprentices help to
> build their 'apparatus'?
>
> It *is* off topic of course; but still, since it is many years since I read
> that book please correct me if I have remembered LTOC wrong.
>
> I don't think I have though - It's so unlikely I'd have invented this idea
> myself back then.
>
> regards
>
> JD
>
>

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 06:29:54 +0000

> have overlooked something.

Ossipago was afraid that the first light from the White Fountain would
penetrate a chink in the tomb and revive the strangled corpse -- which is
exactly what happened after BF&O left. If the two versions of Sev in the
tomb had touched or come too close, one would have been cancelled out. The
one who would have been cancelled out was the newly-created eidolon of Sev.

(The rule is: whenever two versions of the same person come too close, the
one with the deeper roots in the time period in which they meet dominates,
and the other ceases to exist. That is why Sev lived and the summoned
apparition [or whatever word people prefer; I don't want to get distracted
on another tangent] of Apu went out with a bang when they grappled in the
ruins of the stone town when Sev was on the way to Thrax. The strangled
corpse in the tomb had lived in Apu's era for years; the eidolon BF&O had
created had been there for only hours.)

Where or When Ossipago lead them is secondary, but BF&O were on a journey
backwards in time, from after the arrival of the New Sun to their first
(from their perspective) meeting with Sev on The Ship to (so they thought at
the time) their last at Baldander's castle. I suppose that is why Barbatus
said that Ossipago would have taken Sev to an earlier time that would not
have been a better place for Sev. Time before the creation/arrival of light
from the White Fountain would have been bad for Sev because he would be
stuck there, powerless to travel the Corridors of Time. Plus, in any time
period before Typhon, there would have been nothing wrong with the Old Sun.
A New Sun would at best have been superfluous and might even have been
dangerous to the New Sun, because the Old Sun had the deeper roots. See
above.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 16:13:14 +0000

> one who would have been cancelled out was the newly-created eidolon of Sev.

Why would that be bad? Does the trio have some influence over the 
eidolon of a resurrected Severian that they would not have over the 
all-meat resurrected Severian?

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:22:46 +0000

Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:
> Why would that be bad?

Obviously it would be bad for the newly-created eidolon, because he would
cease to exist. That eidolon walked the Corridors to get back to Ushas,
where he eventually penned his second manuscript, the account we are reading
of how he came to be in that tomb.

>Does the trio have some influence over the

I can't answer that. But the all-meat Sev, resurrected by the light of the
White Fountain, must eventually become the Apu that young Sev grappled with
in the stone town in the first manuscript. That's why Famulimus warned the
eidolon Sev not to destroy the corpse; it would change future history, so to
speak, and the two Sevs in that tomb could not live in the same place at the
same time. I suspect that after the eidolon went to Ushas and became solid
flesh, he went on to travel in time to perform various feats attributed to
the Conciliator that our Sev had not yet personally experienced. He may also
heve tinkered in the life of his younger self. (Someone caused that
necropolis mausoleum to be built and messed with the coffins in it.)

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:10:30 +0000

> of how he came to be in that tomb.

Why couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat 
go back to the future?

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:48:52 +0000

> Why couldn't the eidolon stay at the stone town and the strangled meat

The strangled meat didn't know what the eidolon knew; all that had just been
learned from BF&O in the tomb. The eidolon had to get away from him or die.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:00:05 +0000

> learned from BF&O in the tomb. The eidolon had to get away from him or die.

okay - so there seems to be a fairly short distance limit on BFO's 
method of branching off an eidolon, so normally they are only made of 
dead people for practical and safety reasons (poor badger!).  Severian 
has a habit of coming back from the dead, so they want to make the 
eidolon and send him on his way before the light of the White Fountain 
revives the strangled body and causes a merger hazard. Sound right so far?

So...why do they wait until the White Fountain's light is almost there, 
instead of showing up a week early?  Perhaps because the new eidolon 
still needs the White Fountain's light to enter the Corridors of Time 
again? And they don't know for sure that the WF will revive the 
strangled meat, and they can't spare a week farting around the Stone 
Town keeping Sev from getting strangled again, so they cut it close, 
hoping the anxiety at escaping horrid death and being faced with it 
again almost immediately will motivate Severian to head back uptime 
right away?

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 05:00:41 +0000

> revives the strangled body and causes a merger hazard. Sound right so far?

Close enough, except that eidolons are always of the dead.

> again?

Yes, the eidolon must have the WF's light to use the Corridors.

> And they don't know for sure that the WF will revive the

They weren't interested in keeping Sev (as Apu, Head of Day) from being
strangled by the townspeople, if that's what you mean. That tomb had to be
built and a body put in it for future history to pan out as it had panned
out. The strangled meat, a sun god, had to rise again to make the myth
(358-59). And he did rise again and leave the tomb (365-66). He also had a
future (the revived strangled meat's personal future) date with young Sev
and Hildegrin in the stone town.

Eidolon Sev didn't need much more motivation to head back uptime. Besides,
his new eidolon body looked exactly like that of the guy on the funeral
bronze in his boyhood mausoleum, and Sev (from his personal perspective) had
not yet been laid to rest there. He had places to go, things to do.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 05:27:23 +0000

> Close enough, except that eidolons are always of the dead.

Are they? Aren't some made from a living person's impression of the 
subject, rather than from the subject's corpse?

> and Hildegrin in the stone town.

How did Severian merge with the meat? I thought it was only a problem 
eidolons - the two Gunnies are both meat and they don't merge. Or did 
the Cumaean  make an eidolon of the  meat, that eidolon merged with 
Severian, killing Hildegrin, and then everyone went home leaving the
old meat still there?

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:38:07 +0000

Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote"
> Are they?

Yes. "While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, 'You came too near your
double once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he
was gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have
you not wondered why? Be warned!'" (p-361)

> Aren't some made from a living person's impression of the

I assume you are talking about the mind of the eidolon, not the body. Some
eidolons get their imprint from living people, others from "remembrance" or
"reflected thought" in a subject's dead mind (359).

> Severian, killing Hildegrin, and then everyone went home leaving the

I'm not sure I understand the question. When young Sev encountered Apu in
the ruins of the stone town, Apu disappeared in a flash like lightning. So
did Hildegrin, but Hildegrin was just collateral damage. Apu left no corpse
behind. He had been summoned by the Cumaean, but she made no eidolon.

Neither of the two Gunnies were eidolons. They were two iterations of the
same person at different ages, possible only because of time travel. As
Gunnie said on The Ship, "Here it's not one nor the other. We're between the
 suns and the years too, so there can be two Gunnies with no danger to
anybody. Or a dozen." (185)

In that section, Sev also gave some half-ass conjectures about that
encounter with Apu and Hildegrin, but that was before his talk with BF&O in
the tomb.

-Roy

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:03:38 +0000

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>
> you not wondered why? Be warned!'" (p-361)

This suggests that they *can* make eidolons of whoever they want, but they 
avoid making eidolons of the living to reduce the probability of such 
unfortunate encounters.

- Gerry Quinn