{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5621", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5621, "subject": "Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "messages": 162, "voices": 17, "first": "2010-06-04T08:32:07+00:00", "last": "2010-06-11T00:04:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim O'Donnell", "address": "timodonn at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T08:32:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman \nBut I see two possibilities in addition to Mr. Wolfe's starting with the\nidea that Urth was in our future and retconning it into a past universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One is the >apparently Brunian possibility that different universes and\niterations will have overwhelming similarities for reasons we don't\nunderstand (unless Josh does). >In that case many or all of the universes\nhave the names \"Robert\" and \"Marie\" at some point (\"Marie\" coming from\n\"Miriam\" even though there was no Mary >Mother of Jesus). Even the saints'\nnames could be names of exemplary people who were equivalent to the saints\nof our world.\n\nI always thought Wolfe answered questions about the nature of Christ in\nSeverian's universe obliquely but definitively in BOTNS. Time is not linear\nand future events influence past events. The legend of Baldanders and his\ndoctor ripple through time to inspire our own Dr Frankenstein. A stone\ndropped in a pond sends ripples in all directions and I believe the analogy\nholds here; time is not linear and immutable but elastic and intertwined.\nAs things such as Christianity exist in our universe and have such a\nstrong influence they can (and in my opinion do) send ripples of influence\nto Severian - wherever he is placed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08BD3B.90709@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T08:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 3:32 AM, Tim O'Donnell wrote:\nlinear and future events influence past events. The legend of\nBaldanders and his doctor ripple through time to inspire our own Dr\nFrankenstein. A stone dropped in a pond sends ripples in all directions\nand I believe the analogy holds here; time is not linear and immutable\nbut elastic and intertwined. As things such as Christianity exist in\nour universe and have such a strong influence they can (and in my\nopinion do) send ripples of influence to Severian - wherever he is placed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all \nthe rest?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<76375acbb4dbe644e0e5fb43d71600e2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T09:36:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C08BD3B.90709@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talos remarks upon it when it occurs.\n\nHe is an educated homunculus.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 3:32 AM, Tim O'Donnell wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "linear and future events influence past events. The legend of\nBaldanders and his doctor ripple through time to inspire our own Dr\nFrankenstein. A stone dropped in a pond sends ripples in all directions\nand I believe the analogy holds here; time is not linear and immutable\nbut elastic and intertwined. As things such as Christianity exist in\nour universe and have such a strong influence they can (and in my\nopinion do) send ripples of influence to Severian - wherever he is\nplaced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all\nthe rest?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08D43A.9020303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T10:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<76375acbb4dbe644e0e5fb43d71600e2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 4:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTalos remarks upon it when it occurs.\n\nHe is an educated homunculus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does Talos pick those ripples out from the ripples from all the \nother events in all of time, space, and dimension?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T10:32:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C08D43A.9020303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is present at the echoing event.\n\nSince he is educated, he understands how the World works.\n\nSince he is educated, he has read / is familiar with Frankenstein.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 4:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Talos remarks upon it when it occurs.\n\nHe is an educated homunculus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does Talos pick those ripples out from the ripples from all the\nother events in all of time, space, and dimension?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C08DBF6.2030402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T10:56:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 5:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHe is present at the echoing event.\n\nSince he is educated, he understands how the World works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did he get this education in the secret nature of reality?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since he is educated, he has read / is familiar with Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did Mary Shelly pick them out?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T11:56:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C08DBF6.2030402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lots of drugs? Too much time spent with Byron?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 6:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/4/2010 5:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He is present at the echoing event.\n\nSince he is educated, he understands how the World works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where did he get this education in the secret nature of reality?\n\n\nSince he is educated, he has read / is familiar with Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How did Mary Shelly pick them out?\n\n--\n Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T12:02:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not documented.\n\nApparently, Baldanders wished to have an educated physician.\n\nSo, by whatever means, he educated him or had him educated.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lots of drugs? Too much time spent with Byron?\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 6:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/4/2010 5:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He is present at the echoing event.\n\nSince he is educated, he understands how the World works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where did he get this education in the secret nature of reality?\n\n\nSince he is educated, he has read / is familiar with Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How did Mary Shelly pick them out?\n\n--\n Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T12:31:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHow did Mary Shelly pick them out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question or not, but anyway:\n\nMary Shelley, famously, was inspired to write Frankenstein by a\n*dream* she had. At a villa on Lake (hint hint) Geneva. Dr Talos isn't\nsaying events in his time influence events in ours, he's saying they\ninfluence our dreams." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all\nthe rest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They don't, necessarily. Maybe we're all having dreams inspired by\nUrthian events, all the time. It's just that in this case the dream\nwas recorded and that record - somewhat miraculously - survived long\nenough for one of its instigators to identify it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<37ddcc0d36e1876e764b57fc853300dd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T13:19:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dreams don't take place in linear time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How did Mary Shelly pick them out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question or not, but anyway:\n\nMary Shelley, famously, was inspired to write Frankenstein by a\n*dream* she had. At a villa on Lake (hint hint) Geneva. Dr Talos isn't\nsaying events in his time influence events in ours, he's saying they\ninfluence our dreams." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all\nthe rest?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They don't, necessarily. Maybe we're all having dreams inspired by\nUrthian events, all the time. It's just that in this case the dream\nwas recorded and that record - somewhat miraculously - survived long\nenough for one of its instigators to identify it.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C090E7F.5010307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T14:32:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<37ddcc0d36e1876e764b57fc853300dd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 8:19 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nDreams don't take place in linear time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes it even less likely - how does a person's sleeping mind \nselect an images of an event from among all the events, ever? Imagine a \nradio that picks up not only every station in the world, but every \nprogram every station has ever played.\n\nWhen Clarke used the idea in CHILDHOOD'S END, it made bit more sense: \nthe occupation of the Earth by aliens was a singular event in human \nhistory, and signaled the approaching end of human history." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<67e574aa8ebcdc7043081d1c186dff95.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T14:51:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C090E7F.5010307@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am talking about something Real, which I have experienced.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 8:19 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dreams don't take place in linear time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That makes it even less likely - how does a person's sleeping mind\nselect an images of an event from among all the events, ever? Imagine a\nradio that picks up not only every station in the world, but every\nprogram every station has ever played.\n\nWhen Clarke used the idea in CHILDHOOD'S END, it made bit more sense:\nthe occupation of the Earth by aliens was a singular event in human\nhistory, and signaled the approaching end of human history.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T14:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<67e574aa8ebcdc7043081d1c186dff95.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the idea of the presence of Baldanders/Talos rippling through\ntime and space to affect the dreams of Mary Shelley on Lake Geneva\n(or vice versa).\n \nStill there are other Earthly artifacts on Urth which seem to demand\na more substantial connection, most notably in the Jungle Hut. I think\nthe Jungle Hut actually exists on Earth not Urth, and that Severian has\npassed through a portal from one world/universe to the other to get there.\nI think Borski identified a historical pair of missionaries who perhaps \nform the basis for Robert and Marie. And I suspect the master of portals\non Urth, Father Inire, is found in that hut. We get most of our glimpses\nof the mysterious Padre in cowled or masked form but I think in the Hut\nwe get an all too explicit view of him as buck naked Isangoma. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C091963.3010700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T15:18:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 9:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nI like the idea of the presence of Baldanders/Talos rippling through\ntime and space to affect the dreams of Mary Shelley on Lake Geneva\n(or vice versa).\n\nStill there are other Earthly artifacts on Urth which seem to demand\na more substantial connection, most notably in the Jungle Hut. I think\nthe Jungle Hut actually exists on Earth not Urth, and that Severian has\npassed through a portal from one world/universe to the other to get there.\nI think Borski identified a historical pair of missionaries who perhaps\nform the basis for Robert and Marie. And I suspect the master of portals\non Urth, Father Inire, is found in that hut. We get most of our glimpses\nof the mysterious Padre in cowled or masked form but I think in the Hut\nwe get an all too explicit view of him as buck naked Isangoma. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's my other concern with the \"Urth preceeds Earth\" theory: it seems \nlike an awful lot of hand-wringing is done over the fate of Urth when \nit's a simple matter to stroll in the Gardens and see how things turned \nout.\n\nPersonally, I think Wolfe borrowed from the \"All Our Yesterdays\" episode \nof Star Trek where the Sarpeidons escape the end of their world by \nemigrating to historical eras. It doesn't hurt that Mr Atoz, the time \nlibrarian, was played by Ian (\"eon\"?) Wolfe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C091B34.1050503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T15:26:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is present at the echoing event.\n\nSince he is educated, he understands how the World works.\n\nSince he is educated, he has read / is familiar wit" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Green has an interesting explanation of how this works in There Are \nDoors. The various dimensions of There Are Doors with some worlds \n\"closer\" to each other than others are (like strings on a guitar), is \nindistinguishable from tBotNS's succession of universes, at least from \nGreen and Sev's POV." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T17:25:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C091B34.1050503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's my other concern with the \"Urth preceeds Earth\" theory: it seems \nlike an awful lot of hand-wringing is done over the fate of Urth when \nit's a simple matter to stroll in the Gardens and see how things turned \nout." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes Ushas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big Bangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself into\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs itself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod. \n \nYesod, in the course of its existence, has a planet called Earth which is\ncognate to but not directly evolved from Urth or Ushas. Instead of Urth's\nCommonwealth and Severian, Earth has South America and Jesus. I think\nEarth resides in Yesod Universe because they both have an arch-angel named\nTzadkiel. Briah does not have a Tzadkiel (though it might have a Zak).\n \n \nAlso, I don't think just anyone can stroll up to the Jungle Hut and take a peek.\nThe twisting path surely leads different people to different destinations.\nThe labyrinthine path to the Jungle Hut resembles the path to the Atrium of\nTime and the path to the Last House. I think Severian is privileged in his\naccess to these portals.\n \n \nI think it is noteworthy that Agia (and first time readers) find the \nconversation in the Jungle Hut to be a lot of pointless nonsense, but \nSeverian and some multiple-time readers find the conversation and its\nBiblical references to be fascinating and perhaps fraught with meaning.\n(True also of Dr. Talos' play). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C093993.2020102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T17:36:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in \n\"The Book of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the \nChapter as a \"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose \nit is possible to claim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, \nbut I don't know why anyone would bother." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T17:37:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C093993.2020102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nDoesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in \"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the Chapter as a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is possible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't know why\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0939FD.6060205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T17:38:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in \"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the Chapter as a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is possible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't know why\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C094E55.4080503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:04:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C0939FD.6060205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have been \nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses) \nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in \nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only \nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find \nthat less satisfying.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus \nin \"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the \nChapter as a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is \npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't \nknow why\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C094E55.4080503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy. But the\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and priestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist groups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have been\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find that\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the Chapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't know\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<082c97c37559fa30919072631a60e467.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:10:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C094E55.4080503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if the iterative Worlds and the parallel Worlds can be identified.\n\nI think maybe yes.\n\nThey can be next to each other in more than one dimension.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have been\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find\nthat less satisfying.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus\nin \"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter as a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't\nknow why\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<589e0a57c1c6f164e2609ec1542b7195.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:11:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with religion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy. But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and priestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well).\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have been\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<589e0a57c1c6f164e2609ec1542b7195.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes for\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human impulse to\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by \"setting them\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give up\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that impulse\nto be satisfied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:\nPriests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with religion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy. But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and priestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well).\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have been\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:20:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes for\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human impulse to\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by \"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give up\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with religion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C095239.1040603@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:21:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You could just as well ask \"How Catholic is the Catholic Church?\" \nObviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that \naspect. It's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that \nany reader has said, \"Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted \nversion of Catholic Church? I hadn't thought of that.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy. \nBut the Catholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and \npriestly celibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many \nBuddhist groups, um...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well).\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\n been established in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete\n with crosses) merely in correspondence to the vibrations of our\n Universe, just as in Green's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms\n wear black at weddings only because they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\n In that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I\n find that less satisfying.\n\n\n On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James\n Wynn> wrote:\n\n Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe\n has no Jesus in \"The\n Book of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla\n founded the Chapter as a\n \"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I\n suppose it is possible to\n claim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism,\n but I don't know why\n anyone would bother.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:21:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\n\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some biological\nbenefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a nutter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, wrote:\nIt is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes for\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human impulse\nto\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by \"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give up\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with religion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:22:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nHow Catholic is the Chapter, really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good question -- and one without clear answers. Certainly the\nChiasmic (?) Writings quote from the Bible, but they quote from other\nthings too. The order of the liturgy in the Chapter's \"sacrifice\" is\nnot utterly unlike that in the sacrifice of the Mass." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09528D.2070309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Taoism too, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some \nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a nutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, > wrote:\n\n It is biologically based.\n\n If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\n spiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:23:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095239.1040603@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no, obviously not...\n\nI guess what I'm asking is, do that parallels between the Chapter and the\nCatholic Church rise to the level that within the fictive universe there\nmust be a cause-and-effect relationship between them, or can they be\ninterpretted as merely have a metafictive causal relationship, i.e., the\nauthor is a Catholic with something to say and playing around with ideas\nthat are familiar to him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nYou could just as well ask \"How Catholic is the Catholic Church?\" Obviously\nthere are parallels with other religions in this or that aspect. It's the\nwhole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that any reader has said,\n\"Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted version of Catholic Church?\nI hadn't thought of that.\"\n\n How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy. But the\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and priestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist groups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well).\n On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have been\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find that\nless satisfying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the Chapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it is\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I don't know\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C095404.8050907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:29:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the concept of needing to confess to a priest as a path to \nabsolution is pretty Catholic, I'd think.\nIf Wolfe only wanted to play with familiar motifs, why include the plot \nelement that the Chapter was founded as a parody of another specific \nreligion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, no, obviously not...I guess what I'm asking is, do that \nparallels between the Chapter and the Catholic Church rise to the \nlevel that within the fictive universe there must be a \ncause-and-effect relationship between them, or can they be \ninterpretted as merely have a metafictive causal relationship, i.e., \nthe author is a Catholic with something to say and playing around with \nideas that are familiar to him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " You could just as well ask \"How Catholic is the Catholic Church?\"\n Obviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that\n aspect. It's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine\n that any reader has said, \"Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a\n twisted version of Catholic Church? I hadn't thought of that.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " How Catholic is the Chapter, really?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:30:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am from this planet.\n\nBesides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\n\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some biological\nbenefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a nutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes\nfor\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human\nimpulse\nto\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by\n\"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give\nup\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with\nreligion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just\nas\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I\nfind\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no\nJesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it\nis\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I\ndon't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<524b66de5697ebb61517270846ed8426.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:32:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'I am from this planet' is strictly accurate when you consider my physical\nperson.\n\nActually, we are not on a planet.\n\nWe are in a World.\n\nPlanets are bright lights that move in the sky.\n\nAre you planning upon attending the 2011 WorldCon, John?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\n\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some biological\nbenefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a nutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes\nfor\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human\nimpulse\nto\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by\n\"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give\nup\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with\nreligion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just\nas\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I\nfind\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no\nJesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it\nis\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I\ndon't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0954ED.7000005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:33:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am from this planet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what a Visitor _would_ say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you watching out for homeboys?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<237a584c6ba9ce8b8f240876da60c044.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C09528D.2070309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All religions have similar doctrines regarding the use and retention of\nsemen.\n\nThere are variations in practice.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Taoism too, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, > wrote:\n\n It is biologically based.\n\n If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform\ncertain\n spiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:39:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095404.8050907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot of people use confession.\n\nWhether or not they got it from the Catholics is problematic.\n\nHow close is the form of confession used to the Catholic form?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the concept of needing to confess to a priest as a path to\nabsolution is pretty Catholic, I'd think.\nIf Wolfe only wanted to play with familiar motifs, why include the plot\nelement that the Chapter was founded as a parody of another specific\nreligion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, no, obviously not...I guess what I'm asking is, do that\nparallels between the Chapter and the Catholic Church rise to the\nlevel that within the fictive universe there must be a\ncause-and-effect relationship between them, or can they be\ninterpretted as merely have a metafictive causal relationship, i.e.,\nthe author is a Catholic with something to say and playing around with\nideas that are familiar to him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " You could just as well ask \"How Catholic is the Catholic Church?\"\n Obviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that\n aspect. It's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine\n that any reader has said, \"Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a\n twisted version of Catholic Church? I hadn't thought of that.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " How Catholic is the Chapter, really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:40:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095404.8050907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\ndemiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of those\nnotions. (And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:29 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, the concept of needing to confess to a priest as a path to\nabsolution is pretty Catholic, I'd think.\nIf Wolfe only wanted to play with familiar motifs, why include the plot\nelement that the Chapter was founded as a parody of another specific\nreligion?\n\n\n Well, no, obviously not...I guess what I'm asking is, do that parallels\nbetween the Chapter and the Catholic Church rise to the level that within\nthe fictive universe there must be a cause-and-effect relationship between\nthem, or can they be interpretted as merely have a metafictive causal\nrelationship, i.e., the author is a Catholic with something to say and\nplaying around with ideas that are familiar to him?\n\n\n\n You could just as well ask \"How Catholic is the Catholic Church?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Obviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that aspect.\nIt's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that any reader has\nsaid, \"Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted version of Catholic\nChurch? I hadn't thought of that.\"\n\n How Catholic is the Chapter, really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3c5ad9eb3a80233b6012731e6e0f9b6e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:41:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C0954ED.7000005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm assuming that your mockery, here, is totally friendly and benign.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am from this planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's what a Visitor _would_ say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you watching out for homeboys?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:41:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<524b66de5697ebb61517270846ed8426.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it in Reno? I'm unlikely to be in Reno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:32 PM, wrote:\n'I am from this planet' is strictly accurate when you consider my physical\nperson.\n\nActually, we are not on a planet.\n\nWe are in a World.\n\nPlanets are bright lights that move in the sky.\n\nAre you planning upon attending the 2011 WorldCon, John?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\n\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some biological\nbenefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a nutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes\nfor\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human\nimpulse\nto\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by\n\"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give\nup\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with\nreligion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just\nas\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I\nfind\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no\nJesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it\nis\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I\ndon't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:42:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<3c5ad9eb3a80233b6012731e6e0f9b6e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're all friendly here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:41 PM, wrote:\nI'm assuming that your mockery, here, is totally friendly and benign.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am from this planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's what a Visitor _would_ say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you watching out for homeboys?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09572E.9070402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:42:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<3c5ad9eb3a80233b6012731e6e0f9b6e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely.\n I hoped that was obvious. Sorry if it wasn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm assuming that your mockery, here, is totally friendly and benign.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am from this planet.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's what a Visitor _would_ say.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you watching out for homeboys?\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<542aae385e78346e3c25529e6db2c5ec.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:48:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A demiourgos is an intermediate worker.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\ndemiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of those\nnotions. (And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:29 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, the concept of needing to confess to a priest as a path to\nabsolution is pretty Catholic, I'd think.\nIf Wolfe only wanted to play with familiar motifs, why include the plot\nelement that the Chapter was founded as a parody of another specific\nreligion?\n\n\n Well, no, obviously not...I guess what I'm asking is, do that parallels\nbetween the Chapter and the Catholic Church rise to the level that\nwithin\nthe fictive universe there must be a cause-and-effect relationship\nbetween\nthem, or can they be interpretted as merely have a metafictive causal\nrelationship, i.e., the author is a Catholic with something to say and\nplaying around with ideas that are familiar to him?\n\n\n\n You could just as well ask \"How Catholic is the Catholic Church?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Obviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that\naspect.\nIt's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that any\nreader has\nsaid, \"Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted version of\nCatholic\nChurch? I hadn't thought of that.\"\n\n How Catholic is the Chapter, really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:49:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it's in Reno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 12:41 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nIs it in Reno? I'm unlikely to be in Reno.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:32 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'I am from this planet' is strictly accurate when you consider my physical\nperson.\n\nActually, we are not on a planet.\n\nWe are in a World.\n\nPlanets are bright lights that move in the sky.\n\nAre you planning upon attending the 2011 WorldCon, John?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\n\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological\nbenefit to preserving the seed. ?He too was a bit of a nutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes\nfor\npriestly celibacy. ?But there's a pretty well-established human\nimpulse\nto\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by\n\"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man\ngive\nup\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for that\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with\nreligion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many\nBuddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to have\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just\nas\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I\nfind\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn\n?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no\nJesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose it\nis\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I\ndon't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7e58f7f5d1ed3a4edf498159f71253f1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:49:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too bad.\n\nThat's the only convention that I am assured of attending.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it in Reno? I'm unlikely to be in Reno.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:32 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'I am from this planet' is strictly accurate when you consider my\nphysical\nperson.\n\nActually, we are not on a planet.\n\nWe are in a World.\n\nPlanets are bright lights that move in the sky.\n\nAre you planning upon attending the 2011 WorldCon, John?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm never sure what planet you're from.\n\nFor the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological\nbenefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a nutter.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is biologically based.\n\nIf a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I disagree with that, actually.\n\nI recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular\ncauses\nfor\npriestly celibacy. But there's a pretty well-established human\nimpulse\nto\nrecognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by\n\"setting\nthem\napart,\" and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man\ngive\nup\nsome form of \"normal\" human life is a perfectly natural way for\nthat\nimpulse\nto be satisfied.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with\nreligion\nper se.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "How Catholic is the Chapter, really?\n\nNaturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly\ncelibacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "But\nthe\nCatholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and\npriestly\ncelibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many\nBuddhist\ngroups,\num...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On the other hand, it is possible for a \"Catholic Church\" to\nhave\nbeen\nestablished in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with\ncrosses)\nmerely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe,\njust\nas\nin\nGreen's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at\nweddings\nonly\nbecause they do it in Lara's dimension.\n\nIn that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I\nfind\nthat\nless satisfying.\n\nJ.\n\n\nTrue for just about any character in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James\nWynn\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no\nJesus\nin\n\"The\nBook of the Long Sun\"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded\nthe\nChapter\nas a\n\"parody of the state religion of her own whorl\". I suppose\nit\nis\npossible to\nclaim that that \"state religion\" was not Catholicism, but I\ndon't\nknow\nwhy\nanyone would bother.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0958E8.4030609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:50:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or \ndemiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of \nthose notions. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it works for that too.\nLike I said, one could argue that the religion on which the Chapter is \nbased is not the Catholic Church, but I think that is quite cumbersome \nand distracts from the parallels and themes that (I think) Wolfe is \nintentionally toying with. It's unsatisfying to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could not agree more than I am agreeing at this very moment. See my \nconversation with David Stockhoff." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4668e3e42f5ae6ebbd9390f93b7daa58.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:50:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think so too.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we're all friendly here.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:41 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm assuming that your mockery, here, is totally friendly and benign.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I am from this planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's what a Visitor _would_ say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you watching out for homeboys?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<408ca89d450d72a5cbed67428d53b4aa.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:51:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C09572E.9070402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh no, James.\n\nI had a question about John's use of terms.\n\nIt's been well answered.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely.\n I hoped that was obvious. Sorry if it wasn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm assuming that your mockery, here, is totally friendly and benign." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I am from this planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's what a Visitor _would_ say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you watching out for homeboys?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<17334c2bf168a5f832f505712574e6c9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:52:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C0958E8.4030609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antichrist and demiurge are such totally different things, though.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\ndemiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of\nthose notions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it works for that too.\nLike I said, one could argue that the religion on which the Chapter is\nbased is not the Catholic Church, but I think that is quite cumbersome\nand distracts from the parallels and themes that (I think) Wolfe is\nintentionally toying with. It's unsatisfying to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could not agree more than I am agreeing at this very moment. See my\nconversation with David Stockhoff.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<831759.41480.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:55:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth\n\t(was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<4C09528D.2070309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from Taoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C095AA2.7030106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T19:57:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<17334c2bf168a5f832f505712574e6c9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was a brain-dump. And I've never go around to editing it, but this was my take linkages between The Long Sun and Revelation:\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/apocalypse.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antichrist and demiurge are such totally different things, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\n demiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of\n those notions." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:02:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<17334c2bf168a5f832f505712574e6c9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I know that.\n\nWell, perhaps with interlocutors like you two, I should be very clear in\nwhat I mean. You are both very smart and know a lot about this stuff and so\nmay have more refined understandings.\n\nThe anti-Christ is a speculative figure in Christian mythology. To the\ndegree that there is/will be such a person, he seems to be a false or dark\nmessiah--a human being or demon in human form--someone who usurps Christ's\nexpected role in the Second Coming for a period and brings about various\ncatastrophes before decisive defeat at the hands of Christ.\nThe demiurge, as I understand it, is a Gnostic interpretation of the God of\nthe Old Testament. In Gnostic myth this character is evil or stupid, at\nleast in comparison to the real God, and responsible for this world being\nkind of, well, crappy. He is falsely believed by many to be the real God\nand may even style himself as such.\n\nThe two characters are not really similar except that they both contrast\nwith the true divinity of their respective mythologies and are significant\nfor their false representation as the true divinity. In Long Sun, at least,\nPas much more closely mimics the demiurge.\n\nOr to put it another way:\n\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:52 PM, wrote:\nAntichrist and demiurge are such totally different things, though.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\ndemiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of\nthose notions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, it works for that too.\nLike I said, one could argue that the religion on which the Chapter is\nbased is not the Catholic Church, but I think that is quite cumbersome\nand distracts from the parallels and themes that (I think) Wolfe is\nintentionally toying with. It's unsatisfying to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I could not agree more than I am agreeing at this very moment. See my\nconversation with David Stockhoff.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<73928cf0c29b33291460485b1425defd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:02:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<831759.41480.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's all through QBLH.\n\nBe surprised.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\nthoughts on Wolfe\")\n\nTaoism too, right?\n\nI'm never sure what planet you're from." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, >wrote:\n\nIt\nis biologically based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C095C04.6080804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:03:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They are either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a certain status, or for everyone.\n\nGenerally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming down from prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or irrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense. \n\nBut it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies all religions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told not to indulge before a big game (or used to be)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\n\tmiscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\")\nMessage-ID: <237a584c6ba9ce8b8f240876da60c044.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nAll religions have similar doctrines regarding the use and retention of\nsemen.\n\nThere are variations in practice.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:04:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n\tmiscellaneous \tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095C04.6080804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Boxing too. Apparently now, however, the opposite practice is encouraged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:03 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nPretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They\nare either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a\ncertain status, or for everyone.\n\nGenerally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming down\nfrom prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or\nirrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense.\nBut it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies all\nreligions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told not to\nindulge before a big game (or used to be).\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9815447e6ee6892ba97834457f4c68a9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:05:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095AA2.7030106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting.\n\nI'll try to get to it.\n\nIncredible amount going on since mercury release.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This was a brain-dump. And I've never go around to editing it, but this\nwas my take linkages between The Long Sun and Revelation:\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/apocalypse.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antichrist and demiurge are such totally different things, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\n demiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of\n those notions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:10:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I know that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, perhaps with interlocutors like you two, I should be very clear in\nwhat I mean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " You are both very smart and know a lot about this stuff and\nso may have more refined understandings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know how smart I am.\n\nLearned, certainly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The anti-Christ is a speculative figure in Christian mythology. To the\ndegree that there is/will be such a person, he seems to be a false or dark\nmessiah--a human being or demon in human form--someone who usurps Christ's\nexpected role in the Second Coming for a period and brings about various\ncatastrophes before decisive defeat at the hands of Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding is that antichrist is a pattern. There have been many\nantichrists.\n\nSomeday, by Christian theory, there will be one big one for the whole World.\n\nAll of these cosmic events take place on at least two levels.\n\nThe World ends when you die.\n\nThe World ends when the World ends.\n\nBoth are equally true.\n\nIt is an error to emphasize meaning number two, when reading the\nApokalypsis, though it is certainly a part of the religion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The demiurge, as I understand it, is a Gnostic interpretation of the God\nof\nthe Old Testament. In Gnostic myth this character is evil or stupid, at\nleast in comparison to the real God, and responsible for this world being\nkind of, well, crappy. He is falsely believed by many to be the real God\nand may even style himself as such.\n\nThe two characters are not really similar except that they both contrast\nwith the true divinity of their respective mythologies and are significant\nfor their false representation as the true divinity. In Long Sun, at\nleast,\nPas much more closely mimics the demiurge.\n\nOr to put it another way:\n\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor.\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:52 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antichrist and demiurge are such totally different things, though.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or\ndemiurge. Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of\nthose notions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, it works for that too.\nLike I said, one could argue that the religion on which the Chapter is\nbased is not the Catholic Church, but I think that is quite cumbersome\nand distracts from the parallels and themes that (I think) Wolfe is\nintentionally toying with. It's unsatisfying to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I could not agree more than I am agreeing at this very moment. See my\nconversation with David Stockhoff.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4e299180252460cc19e0a72aa6f83508.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:10:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095C04.6080804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's from biology.\n\nDo it for a month.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They\nare either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a\ncertain status, or for everyone.\n\nGenerally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming down\nfrom prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or\nirrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense.\n\nBut it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies\nall religions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told\nnot to indulge before a big game (or used to be).\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<175ba6d1a44e533b615488c6d9b4400b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C095C04.6080804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Biologically* it applies to men.\n\nThere is other stuff that applies to women.\n\nI've been studying and practicing this stuff for forty years or more.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They\nare either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a\ncertain status, or for everyone.\n\nGenerally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming down\nfrom prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or\nirrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense.\n\nBut it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies\nall religions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told\nnot to indulge before a big game (or used to be).\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<913192b2ab79d61a8dd23b27524827f9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:12:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n miscellaneous \tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any fighter I train follows the old rules.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Boxing too. Apparently now, however, the opposite practice is encouraged.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:03 PM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They\nare either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a\ncertain status, or for everyone.\n\nGenerally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming\ndown\nfrom prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or\nirrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense.\nBut it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies\nall\nreligions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told not\nto\nindulge before a big game (or used to be).\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C096111.6020804@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 12:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAlso, I don't think just anyone can stroll up to the Jungle Hut and take a peek.\nThe twisting path surely leads different people to different destinations.\nThe labyrinthine path to the Jungle Hut resembles the path to the Atrium of\nTime and the path to the Last House. I think Severian is privileged in his\naccess to these portals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Sand Garden seems less of a challenge, and even if normal joes get \nlost, they're getting lost in some other time or dimension instead of \none scheduled for demolition in 40 years." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C096242.1030203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:29:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 2:42 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI think we're all friendly here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "if only some of use were less so" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09627A.9020002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:30:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the \ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to \nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who \npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be \nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his \ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are \nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New \nTestament.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:38:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C09627A.9020002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, Pas's role in Short Sun is a little more complicated...\n\nMy interpretation is that the Short Sun is (inter alia) about the Outsider's\nlong game of converting Pas into a reasonable facsimile of Himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:38:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C096111.6020804@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Sand Garden obviously opens on the time of Christ.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 12:25 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, I don't think just anyone can stroll up to the Jungle Hut and take\na peek.\nThe twisting path surely leads different people to different\ndestinations.\nThe labyrinthine path to the Jungle Hut resembles the path to the Atrium\nof\nTime and the path to the Last House. I think Severian is privileged in\nhis\naccess to these portals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Sand Garden seems less of a challenge, and even if normal joes get\nlost, they're getting lost in some other time or dimension instead of\none scheduled for demolition in 40 years.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<204c9ae319cdf8ffea746c26fff996a4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C09627A.9020002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to perform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:41:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<204c9ae319cdf8ffea746c26fff996a4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A demiurge works between.\n\nThe guy who makes the parts that get made into cars is, in a sense, a\ndemiurge.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to perform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:43:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<204c9ae319cdf8ffea746c26fff996a4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like Arishem the Judge?\n\nYou know who's cooler than Arishem the Judge?\n\nNo one. That's who." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:40 PM, wrote:\nA demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to perform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0966A2.4060105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<204c9ae319cdf8ffea746c26fff996a4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. But I'm talking about the particular famous demiurge of 1st & 2nd \nc. Christian Gnostics. The one who was supposed to have spoken to Moses. \nThe one I think Typhon/Pas models.\nThere are lots of various actions of an antichrist as well, I suppose. \nHe might only mislead regarding the Gospel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to perform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " A demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the\n creator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\n salvation/enlightenment.\n The Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who\n presents himself as God.\n\n Obviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\n something an antichrist would do.\n But Typhon*did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\n creation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\n So Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\n absolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\n Testament." } ] }, { "message_id": "<683a46ead9be1b113f43256acbef76c3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Metatron.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like Arishem the Judge?\n\nYou know who's cooler than Arishem the Judge?\n\nNo one. That's who.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:40 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\nperform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is\nthe\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN\nwho\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<771916.82985.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:55:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Tony Ellis \nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How did Mary Shelly pick them out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question or not, but anyway:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mary Shelley, famously, was inspired to write Frankenstein by a\n*dream* she had. At a villa on Lake (hint hint) Geneva. Dr Talos isn't\nsaying events in his time influence events in ours, he's saying they\ninfluence our dreams." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all\nthe rest?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They don't, necessarily. Maybe we're all having dreams inspired by\nUrthian events, all the time. It's just that in this case the dream\nwas recorded and that record - somewhat miraculously - survived long\nenough for one of its instigators to identify it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again I think it depends on whether Urth is in our future or in a previous universe.\n\nIf it's in our future, then the story is relatively simple. There was Mary Shelley's dream, which led to /Frankenstein/, which Dr. Talos somehow knows about and recognizes. He assumes, maybe correctly, that he and Baldanders caused the dream backwards in time.\n\nIf it's in a past universe, as Mr. Wolfe has said, then there are three stories. The one Dr. Talos knows is from Urth's younger days and may have been inspired by a dream. He and Baldanders replay it, we don't know how faithfully. Shelley's dream and /Frankenstein/ are an echo of those two stories in our universe.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:56:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<683a46ead9be1b113f43256acbef76c3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is required to refer to him as The Cosmic Metatron." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:55 PM, wrote:\nOr Metatron.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Like Arishem the Judge?\n\nYou know who's cooler than Arishem the Judge?\n\nNo one. That's who.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:40 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\nperform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is\nthe\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN\nwho\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:57:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C0966A2.4060105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jibrail is a demiurge.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. But I'm talking about the particular famous demiurge of 1st & 2nd\nc. Christian Gnostics. The one who was supposed to have spoken to Moses.\nThe one I think Typhon/Pas models.\nThere are lots of various actions of an antichrist as well, I suppose.\nHe might only mislead regarding the Gospel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\nperform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " A demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is\nthe\n creator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\n salvation/enlightenment.\n The Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN\nwho\n presents himself as God.\n\n Obviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be\n something an antichrist would do.\n But Typhon*did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\n creation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his\nthrone.\n\n So Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\n absolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\n Testament." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7912ea4044f9f084dc7ba57aff14546f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:58:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<771916.82985.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dreams do not take place in linear time.\n\nDreams do not take place just in this iteration of the World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Tony Ellis " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How did Mary Shelly pick them out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question or not, but anyway:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mary Shelley, famously, was inspired to write Frankenstein by a\n*dream* she had. At a villa on Lake (hint hint) Geneva. Dr Talos isn't\nsaying events in his time influence events in ours, he's saying they\ninfluence our dreams." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all\nthe rest?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They don't, necessarily. Maybe we're all having dreams inspired by\nUrthian events, all the time. It's just that in this case the dream\nwas recorded and that record - somewhat miraculously - survived long\nenough for one of its instigators to identify it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again I think it depends on whether Urth is in our future or in a previous\nuniverse.\n\nIf it's in our future, then the story is relatively simple. There was\nMary Shelley's dream, which led to /Frankenstein/, which Dr. Talos somehow\nknows about and recognizes. He assumes, maybe correctly, that he and\nBaldanders caused the dream backwards in time.\n\nIf it's in a past universe, as Mr. Wolfe has said, then there are three\nstories. The one Dr. Talos knows is from Urth's younger days and may have\nbeen inspired by a dream. He and Baldanders replay it, we don't know how\nfaithfully. Shelley's dream and /Frankenstein/ are an echo of those two\nstories in our universe.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6ef97c7bd90353fb02a6e41dd70812f5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T20:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\nMe and him go back.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is required to refer to him as The Cosmic Metatron.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or Metatron.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Like Arishem the Judge?\n\nYou know who's cooler than Arishem the Judge?\n\nNo one. That's who.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:40 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\nperform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is\nthe\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN\nwho\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would\nbe\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his\nthrone.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:00:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon and Pas are not the same person.\n\nPas began as an iteration of Typhon.\n\nSince then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is required to refer to him as The Cosmic Metatron.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or Metatron.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Like Arishem the Judge?\n\nYou know who's cooler than Arishem the Judge?\n\nNo one. That's who.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:40 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\nperform\na particular task.\n\nHe (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.\n\nIt depends upon a lot of factors.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Or to put it another way:\nAnti-Christ: Brother Justin Crowe\nDemiurge: Dalek Emperor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Or to put it even another way:\nA demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is\nthe\ncreator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to\nsalvation/enlightenment.\nThe Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN\nwho\npresents himself as God.\n\nObviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would\nbe\nsomething an antichrist would do.\nBut Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his\ncreation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his\nthrone.\n\nSo Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are\nabsolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New\nTestament.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0969AC.2080304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:01:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 3:38 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThe Sand Garden obviously opens on the time of Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What allegedly makes it obvious?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C096C97.2080803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon and Pas are not the same person.\n\nPas began as an iteration of Typhon.\n\nSince then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last September, I sat in a Q&A with Wolfe. The following words (in their \nessence, it's been 9 months now) were stated:\n\nSome Guy: \"Typhon managed to sort of be on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nGene Wolfe: \"No! Typhon *was* on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nI want to convey how emphatic Wolfe was when he made this correction.\n\nErgo, Pas is not the Typhon that Severian met and threw off the \nmountain, but (as Wolfe sees it) both THAT Typhon and Pas are the Typhon \nthat created the Whorl.\n\nJust as when Kypris possessed Chenille, she wasn't the Kypris that one \nmight meet at that moment in a Sacred Window. But she *was* Kypris.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:15:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C096C97.2080803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder if the iterative Worlds and the parallel Worlds can be identified.\nI think maybe yes.\nThey can be next to each other in more than one dimension." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to agree with Brunians on this. If the process of creation\nand destruction and creation of sequential universes can be imagined \nas taking an ascending spiral shape then the \"distance\" between one \nuniversal coil and an adjacent one is small could put Urth and Earth \nor other corresponding entitities in very close proximity, for those\nwho know how to bridge the gap.\n \nIn regard to Silk's religion I find the celibacy and confession aspects \nof the augur's job somewhat less interesting than the slaughtering and \nsacrifice of animals in the interest of finding divine prophesy in the \nentrails. In that activity I find, once again, evidence that Wolfe is \ndescribing how the ills of Earth's ancient pagan societies will persist \nin the absence of a Jesus figure and be somewhat mitigated as the closest \nproximity to Jesus is found on a given planet or society.\n \nIf Silk is a clone of Typhon, and The Outsider is included, do we not have\nan inferior but still potent version of the Holy Trinity in place? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09703A.1000102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:29:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the sense that (and in the cults where) archons are demiurges, yeah. \nIn some cases, the world was made with the assistance of angels and this \nexplains why the World is broken. That's not just Gnosticism. That's \nKabbala. It goes all the way back to the Jewish philosopher Philo (who \nalso provided the technical terminology for the 1st chapter of the \nGospel of John; so there's your connection between Apostolic Christians \nand Gnostics).\n\nHowever, typically when one refers to The Demiurge, there is a \ndistinction between him and the other archons. Since Pas alone gets \ncredit for making the Whorl, it's The Demiurge that is being referenced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jibrail is a demiurge.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Okay. But I'm talking about the particular famous demiurge of 1st& 2nd\n c. Christian Gnostics. The one who was supposed to have spoken to Moses.\n The one I think Typhon/Pas models.\n There are lots of various actions of an antichrist as well, I suppose.\n He might only mislead regarding the Gospel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\n perform\n a particular task." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:29:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C0969AC.2080304@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, it's not obvious.\n\nSeverian doesn't want to leave the Sand Garden.\n\nWhy?\n\nWhat desert might particularly interest Gene Wolfe?\n\nPerhaps Father Inire had a face to face with Jesus during a certain forty\nday period.\n\nIt would be like him.\n\nAnd like a Friend of mine.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 3:38 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Sand Garden obviously opens on the time of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What allegedly makes it obvious?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4f0a98af554ef22e10aed5d02b3456a9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:32:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C096C97.2080803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas was recorded from Typhon's brain.\n\nSince that point their lives and experiences have been very different.\n\nPas has had many years to think.\n\nWho would not be a different person after that many years?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon and Pas are not the same person.\n\nPas began as an iteration of Typhon.\n\nSince then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Last September, I sat in a Q&A with Wolfe. The following words (in their\nessence, it's been 9 months now) were stated:\n\nSome Guy: \"Typhon managed to sort of be on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nGene Wolfe: \"No! Typhon *was* on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nI want to convey how emphatic Wolfe was when he made this correction.\n\nErgo, Pas is not the Typhon that Severian met and threw off the\nmountain, but (as Wolfe sees it) both THAT Typhon and Pas are the Typhon\nthat created the Whorl.\n\nJust as when Kypris possessed Chenille, she wasn't the Kypris that one\nmight meet at that moment in a Sacred Window. But she *was* Kypris.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:33:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Killing animals for religious purposes is OK.\n\nWhat's wrong with killing animals for religious purposes?\n\nThe only reason Jews don't do it is because there is no Temple.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder if the iterative Worlds and the parallel Worlds can be\nidentified.\nI think maybe yes.\nThey can be next to each other in more than one dimension." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tend to agree with Brunians on this. If the process of creation\nand destruction and creation of sequential universes can be imagined\nas taking an ascending spiral shape then the \"distance\" between one\nuniversal coil and an adjacent one is small could put Urth and Earth\nor other corresponding entitities in very close proximity, for those\nwho know how to bridge the gap.\n\nIn regard to Silk's religion I find the celibacy and confession aspects\nof the augur's job somewhat less interesting than the slaughtering and\nsacrifice of animals in the interest of finding divine prophesy in the\nentrails. In that activity I find, once again, evidence that Wolfe is\ndescribing how the ills of Earth's ancient pagan societies will persist\nin the absence of a Jesus figure and be somewhat mitigated as the closest\nproximity to Jesus is found on a given planet or society.\n\nIf Silk is a clone of Typhon, and The Outsider is included, do we not have\nan inferior but still potent version of the Holy Trinity in place?\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Eoff", "address": "jeffeoff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:33:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n\tthoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C096C97.2080803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was that DragonCon, James? I'm pretty sure I remember a moment like\nthat in the Wolfe Q&A. I don't recall the exact phrasing, but I do\nrecall we had to shout Typhon a couple of times before he recognized\nwho we were talking about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nTyphon and Pas are not the same person.\n\nPas began as an iteration of Typhon.\n\nSince then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Last September, I sat in a Q&A with Wolfe. The following words (in their essence, it's been 9 months now) were stated:\n\nSome Guy: \"Typhon managed to sort of be on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nGene Wolfe: \"No! Typhon *was* on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nI want to convey how emphatic Wolfe was when he made this correction.\n\nErgo, Pas is not the Typhon that Severian met and threw off the mountain, but (as Wolfe sees it) both THAT Typhon and Pas are the Typhon that created the Whorl.\n\nJust as when Kypris possessed Chenille, she wasn't the Kypris that one might meet at that moment in a Sacred Window. But she *was* Kypris.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:34:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C09703A.1000102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It goes back a lot further than that.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the sense that (and in the cults where) archons are demiurges, yeah.\nIn some cases, the world was made with the assistance of angels and this\nexplains why the World is broken. That's not just Gnosticism. That's\nKabbala. It goes all the way back to the Jewish philosopher Philo (who\nalso provided the technical terminology for the 1st chapter of the\nGospel of John; so there's your connection between Apostolic Christians\nand Gnostics).\n\nHowever, typically when one refers to The Demiurge, there is a\ndistinction between him and the other archons. Since Pas alone gets\ncredit for making the Whorl, it's The Demiurge that is being referenced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jibrail is a demiurge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " Okay. But I'm talking about the particular famous demiurge of 1st&\n2nd\n c. Christian Gnostics. The one who was supposed to have spoken to\nMoses.\n The one I think Typhon/Pas models.\n There are lots of various actions of an antichrist as well, I\nsuppose.\n He might only mislead regarding the Gospel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": " A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to\n perform\n a particular task." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09726C.8010808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:38:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that was DragonCon. Wolfe was really on the ball for all of his \npanels in that convention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was that DragonCon, James? I'm pretty sure I remember a moment like\nthat in the Wolfe Q&A. I don't recall the exact phrasing, but I do\nrecall we had to shout Typhon a couple of times before he recognized\nwho we were talking about.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon and Pas are not the same person.\n\nPas began as an iteration of Typhon.\n\nSince then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Last September, I sat in a Q&A with Wolfe. The following words (in their essence, it's been 9 months now) were stated:\n\nSome Guy: \"Typhon managed to sort of be on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nGene Wolfe: \"No! Typhon *was* on the Whorl in the form of Pas.\"\n\nI want to convey how emphatic Wolfe was when he made this correction.\n\nErgo, Pas is not the Typhon that Severian met and threw off the mountain, but (as Wolfe sees it) both THAT Typhon and Pas are the Typhon that created the Whorl.\n\nJust as when Kypris possessed Chenille, she wasn't the Kypris that one might meet at that moment in a Sacred Window. But she *was* Kypris.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0973D5.2020302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:44:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\n thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4f0a98af554ef22e10aed5d02b3456a9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas was recorded from Typhon's brain. Since that point their lives and experiences have been very different. Pas has had many years to think. Who would not be a different person after that many years?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I'm saying is that Pas is as much Typhon as the Typhons Severian \nencountered in the The Book of the New Sun and the Urth of the New Sun. \nMaybe he's changed a lot from the creation of the Whorl. Maybe he's \nworse after all those centuries of children being sacrificed to him. \nMaybe not, though. The Typhon Severian met did not strike me as a man of \nintrospection." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C097611.7030307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:54:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C0973D5.2020302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To distinguish him from the Transformers character, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:56:16 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\n\tmiscellaneous\tthoughts on Wolfe\")\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nIt is required to refer to him as The Cosmic Metatron.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or Metatron.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<740019.17576.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T21:54:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n\tEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<73928cf0c29b33291460485b1425defd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you give me a citation, please? One would be enough for my surprise.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's all through QBLH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Be surprised." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous\nthoughts on Wolfe\")\n\nTaoism too, right?\n\nI'm never sure what planet you're from." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, >wrote:\n\nIt\nis biologically based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T22:05:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka,\n miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C097611.7030307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know nothing of this.\n\nI know what Transformers is.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To distinguish him from the Transformers character, yes.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:56:16 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\n\tmiscellaneous\tthoughts on Wolfe\")\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nIt is required to refer to him as The Cosmic Metatron.\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or Metatron.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T22:06:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<740019.17576.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No.\n\nIt's in the Talmud also.\n\nAnd before you ask: no.\n\nNo one spoon fed me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you give me a citation, please? One would be enough for my surprise.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's all through QBLH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Be surprised." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\nmiscellaneous\nthoughts on Wolfe\")\n\nTaoism too, right?\n\nI'm never sure what planet you're from." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, >wrote:\n\nIt\nis biologically based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C097C5A.5050002@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T22:21:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 4:29 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOK, it's not obvious.\n\nSeverian doesn't want to leave the Sand Garden.\n\nWhy?\n\nWhat desert might particularly interest Gene Wolfe?\n\nPerhaps Father Inire had a face to face with Jesus during a certain forty\nday period." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I was in the \"Urth preceeds Earth\" camp, I might suggest that's why \nSev feels as if he belonged there, standing where Jesus was meant to be. \nOr perhaps he merely feels it appropriate as various other prophets have \nsought it out, like John the Baptist. In fact, John might be the central \nfigure of the Urthly NT, managing to get himself crucified instead of \nbeheaded on that iteration." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b2a512ec7ee9f621415070334b4b73.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T22:39:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C097C5A.5050002@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dreams don't take place in linear time.\n\nWhy do you assume that something Father Inire built operates only in\nlinear time?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 4:29 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, it's not obvious.\n\nSeverian doesn't want to leave the Sand Garden.\n\nWhy?\n\nWhat desert might particularly interest Gene Wolfe?\n\nPerhaps Father Inire had a face to face with Jesus during a certain\nforty\nday period." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I was in the \"Urth preceeds Earth\" camp, I might suggest that's why\nSev feels as if he belonged there, standing where Jesus was meant to be.\nOr perhaps he merely feels it appropriate as various other prophets have\nsought it out, like John the Baptist. In fact, John might be the central\nfigure of the Urthly NT, managing to get himself crucified instead of\nbeheaded on that iteration.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<215826.66284.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T22:47:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n\tEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nNo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's in the Talmud also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that would be a much bigger surprise for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And before you ask: no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No one spoon fed me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you give me a citation, please? One would be enough for my surprise.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's all through QBLH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Be surprised." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\nmiscellaneous\nthoughts on Wolfe\")\n\nTaoism too, right?\n\nI'm never sure what planet you're from." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, >wrote:\n\nIt\nis biologically based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<086f4f1c0dc85f7dbadda4077caac28a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:02:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<215826.66284.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You expect laziness to be rewarded?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's in the Talmud also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that would be a much bigger surprise for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And before you ask: no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No one spoon fed me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can you give me a citation, please? One would be enough for my\nsurprise.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth\n&\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's all through QBLH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Be surprised." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it\nfrom\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\nmiscellaneous\nthoughts on Wolfe\")\n\nTaoism too, right?\n\nI'm never sure what planet you're from." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, >wrote:\n\nIt\nis biologically based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform\ncertain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C098B1D.2090705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:24:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<00b2a512ec7ee9f621415070334b4b73.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 5:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nDreams don't take place in linear time.\n\nWhy do you assume that something Father Inire built operates only in\nlinear time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you assume I'm speaking of linear time?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:33 PM, wrote:\n\nKilling animals for religious purposes is OK.\n\nWhat's wrong with killing animals for religious purposes?\n\nThe only reason Jews don't do it is because there is no Temple." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Samaritans don't count as Jews?\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Religious_beliefs" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4bb6a6b3fd240c71aa1a12721b664da3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:39:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C098B1D.2090705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something you said, or something I read, in your previous post made me\nthink that.\n\nIf the text of your previous post was to hand I would pick it out, and\neither confront you with it or admit error.\n\nI try not to argue with people, and I am not going to argue with you about\nthis.\n\nIf you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 5:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dreams don't take place in linear time.\n\nWhy do you assume that something Father Inire built operates only in\nlinear time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you assume I'm speaking of linear time?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:41:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not according to the Jews.\n\nWhy does a Jew always answer a question with a question?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:33 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Killing animals for religious purposes is OK.\n\nWhat's wrong with killing animals for religious purposes?\n\nThe only reason Jews don't do it is because there is no Temple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Samaritans don't count as Jews?\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Religious_beliefs\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C099297.5050502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:56:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling\")", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:30 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:33 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Killing animals for religious purposes is OK.\n\nWhat's wrong with killing animals for religious purposes?\n\nThe only reason Jews don't do it is because there is no Temple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Samaritans don't count as Jews?\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Religious_beliefs" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Israelites rather than Jews" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<988806.12796.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:09:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n\tEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<086f4f1c0dc85f7dbadda4077caac28a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not in general. I'm surprised you apparently inferred I did. I thought you might answer my request, though. Maybe I should say I'm not and wasn't criticizing your decision not to answer it.\n\nI'll limit my comments on this subject to one that's on topic. In my life, I've seen my laziness and other people's rewarded on several occasions. But I don't recall ever seeing that happen in a Gene Wolfe story. In fact, I don't recall much laziness (but then there are a lot of books I don't remember very well). One example that comes to mind is the Rajan's major-domo or whatever he is.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 5:02:04 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))\n\nYou expect laziness to be rewarded?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's in the Talmud also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that would be a much bigger surprise for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And before you ask: no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No one spoon fed me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can you give me a citation, please? One would be enough for my\nsurprise.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth\n&\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's all through QBLH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Be surprised." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it\nfrom\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka\nmiscellaneous\nthoughts on Wolfe\")\n\nTaoism too, right?\n\nI'm never sure what planet you're from." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some\nbiological benefit to preserving the seed. He too was a bit of a\nnutter.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, >wrote:\n\nIt\nis biologically based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform\ncertain\nspiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09B734.8060700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:32:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<988806.12796.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's in the Talmud also.\nAnd before you ask: no.\n[I won't tell you where.] No one spoon fed me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not like you can go to the library and grab the volume called \n\"Talmud\". You could say what part of the Talmud you read it in and show \noff how smart you are. It would matter if it's from say a rabbi in the \n15th c A.D. or someone from 2nd c BC. I'd believe that just about \nanything someone told me was in the QBLH." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:33:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<988806.12796.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have resolved to be less of a jerk, and I am sorry I fell short in that.\n\nI have, in the past, had sort of a fucked up attitude, and want every one\nof you to know that I however harsh I may sound sometimes, there's nothing\npersonal behind it.\n\nI hate to say something that sounds like it might be an excuse, but I am\nsometimes overresponsive to physical pain. I have, more times than I like\nto think about, harshed on someone who had not done anything offensive,\nbecause I was in physical pain.\n\nI have been getting much better at not allowing the higher levels of pain\nto grouchify me, but I am not perfect at it and probably never will be.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not in general. I'm surprised you apparently inferred I did. I thought\nyou might answer my request, though. Maybe I should say I'm not and\nwasn't criticizing your decision not to answer it.\n\nI'll limit my comments on this subject to one that's on topic. In my\nlife, I've seen my laziness and other people's rewarded on several\noccasions. But I don't recall ever seeing that happen in a Gene Wolfe\nstory. In fact, I don't recall much laziness (but then there are a lot of\nbooks I don't remember very well). One example that comes to mind is the\nRajan's major-domo or whatever he is.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 5:02:04 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))\n\nYou expect laziness to be rewarded?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's in the Talmud also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now that would be a much bigger surprise for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And before you ask: no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No one spoon fed me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whatever.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Can you give me a citation, please? One would be enough for my\nsurprise.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth\n&\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's all through QBLH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Be surprised." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's in the /Journey to the West/. Whether Chinese Buddhism got it\nfrom\nTaoism I don't know. I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.\n\nI will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.\n\n\nJerry Friedman has been surprised before.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: James Wynn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7088711fb7f3539958e41bd54717e62b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:38:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<4C09B734.8060700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are we talking about?\n\nSexual energy as it is used in Judaism?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >> It's in the Talmud also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And before you ask: no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >>[I won't tell you where.] No one spoon fed me.\n\nIt's not like you can go to the library and grab the volume called\n\"Talmud\". You could say what part of the Talmud you read it in and show\noff how smart you are. It would matter if it's from say a rabbi in the\n15th c A.D. or someone from 2nd c BC. I'd believe that just about\nanything someone told me was in the QBLH.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09B8FC.1060303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<7088711fb7f3539958e41bd54717e62b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Or as I've heard it called \"holding your chain\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 9:38 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nare we talking about?\n\nSexual energy as it is used in Judaism?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<98f61a3fdbb569f08e3898840c209f49.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:41:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<4C09B734.8060700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In all of the following questions, the term 'a Jew' refers to a Jewish man\nwho is conforming to halacha (ie, is orthoprax).\n\nWith whom may a Jew have sex?\n\nMay a Jew have any kind of sex?\n\nWhen may a Jew have sex?\n\nMay a Jew masturbate?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >> It's in the Talmud also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And before you ask: no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >>[I won't tell you where.] No one spoon fed me.\n\nIt's not like you can go to the library and grab the volume called\n\"Talmud\". You could say what part of the Talmud you read it in and show\noff how smart you are. It would matter if it's from say a rabbi in the\n15th c A.D. or someone from 2nd c BC. I'd believe that just about\nanything someone told me was in the QBLH.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50c420fc1c823f807c7c629b66fcae42.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T02:42:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<4C09B8FC.1060303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do be so kind as to review my previous post.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Or as I've heard it called \"holding your chain\".\n\nOn 6/4/2010 9:38 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "are we talking about?\n\nSexual energy as it is used in Judaism?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C09CFD0.20501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T04:17:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Brunians-Man", "in_reply_to": "<4bb6a6b3fd240c71aa1a12721b664da3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSomething you said, or something I read, in your previous post made me\nthink that.\n\nIf the text of your previous post was to hand I would pick it out, and\neither confront you with it or admit error.\n\nI try not to argue with people, and I am not going to argue with you about\nthis.\n\nIf you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind \nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<627481.61988.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T04:29:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n\tEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<98f61a3fdbb569f08e3898840c209f49.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, I don't object to anything in that reply to me. I don't think you have anything to apologize for. I'm sorry to hear you're in pain, though, and I hope it goes away.\n\nAs far as I know, what we're talking about is whether Judaism has the idea that men who don't have orgasms attain spiritual capabilities unavailable to other men.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nIn all of the following questions, the term 'a Jew' refers to a Jewish man\nwho is conforming to halacha (ie, is orthoprax)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With whom may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His wife. Most men are obliged to marry by the age of 20, but I'll mention exceptions below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "May a Jew have any kind of sex?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any time, as long as he doesn't do it in the street and frighten the horses. (Apparently it's not allowed in the presence of any creature.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "May a Jew masturbate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No.\n\nYou left out: How often must a Jew have sex?\n\nAs often as his wife asks for her conjugal rights, up to a maximum that depends on his job, from every night for men who do not-too-demanding physical work in the city where they live, to once every six months for a sailor.\n\nThere are some interesting glimpses of Maimonides' statements on this subject on limited preview at\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=JFny1k_bv5cC&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nIt says he thought that a student may delay marriage--not for any stated spiritual reasons, but to avoid distractions. He also seems to said the rabbi Ben Azzai (who said being childless was as evil as shedding blood) was permitted not to marry at because Ben Azzai was interested only in study, not in sex, though other authorities of the time thought Ben Azzai was sinning. In general, Maimonides seems to have seen sexuality as a distraction, though a required one.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<747010afb062f344dbff5c68d282bb05.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T04:54:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Brunians-Man", "in_reply_to": "<4C09CFD0.20501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not normally good at riddles, and I'm definitely not playing this\ntonight.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Something you said, or something I read, in your previous post made me\nthink that.\n\nIf the text of your previous post was to hand I would pick it out, and\neither confront you with it or admit error.\n\nI try not to argue with people, and I am not going to argue with you\nabout\nthis.\n\nIf you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T05:00:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<627481.61988.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So basically, this guy spends half his time not having sex and not\nmasturbating.\n\nHe goes for one good week without having sex every month.\n\nHe's still wrapping phylacteries every day isn't he?\n\nStill saying the normal prayers?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I said, I don't object to anything in that reply to me. I don't think\nyou have anything to apologize for. I'm sorry to hear you're in pain,\nthough, and I hope it goes away.\n\nAs far as I know, what we're talking about is whether Judaism has the idea\nthat men who don't have orgasms attain spiritual capabilities unavailable\nto other men.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In all of the following questions, the term 'a Jew' refers to a Jewish\nman\nwho is conforming to halacha (ie, is orthoprax)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "With whom may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His wife. Most men are obliged to marry by the age of 20, but I'll\nmention exceptions below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "May a Jew have any kind of sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any time, as long as he doesn't do it in the street and frighten the\nhorses. (Apparently it's not allowed in the presence of any creature.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "May a Jew masturbate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No.\n\nYou left out: How often must a Jew have sex?\n\nAs often as his wife asks for her conjugal rights, up to a maximum that\ndepends on his job, from every night for men who do not-too-demanding\nphysical work in the city where they live, to once every six months for a\nsailor.\n\nThere are some interesting glimpses of Maimonides' statements on this\nsubject on limited preview at\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=JFny1k_bv5cC&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nIt says he thought that a student may delay marriage--not for any stated\nspiritual reasons, but to avoid distractions. He also seems to said the\nrabbi Ben Azzai (who said being childless was as evil as shedding blood)\nwas permitted not to marry at because Ben Azzai was interested only in\nstudy, not in sex, though other authorities of the time thought Ben Azzai\nwas sinning. In general, Maimonides seems to have seen sexuality as a\ndistraction, though a required one.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0A3325.6030409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T11:21:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Brunians-Man", "in_reply_to": "<747010afb062f344dbff5c68d282bb05.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 11:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'm not normally good at riddles, and I'm definitely not playing this\ntonight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you could peek into one of the other universes for the answer, that \nwould still count." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<680360.90149.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T12:56:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n\tEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid I don't follow. Who is \"this guy\"? What do you mean by \"spends half his time not having sex and not masturbating\"? Half his life? And if we're talking about a real person such as Ben Azzai, I believe people who are forbidden by their religion to have sex sometimes do anyway, and even more so for masturbation, so I couldn't even guess whether someone abstained from orgasms.\n\nThe sentence with \"week\" and \"month\" makes no sense to me.\n\n\nWhoever it is, if he's an Orthodox Jew, he probably does say the normal prayers and put on phylacteries (\"lay tefillin\", as many American Jews say) every day.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 11:00:20 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))\n\nSo basically, this guy spends half his time not having sex and not\nmasturbating.\n\nHe goes for one good week without having sex every month.\n\nHe's still wrapping phylacteries every day isn't he?\n\nStill saying the normal prayers?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I said, I don't object to anything in that reply to me. I don't think\nyou have anything to apologize for. I'm sorry to hear you're in pain,\nthough, and I hope it goes away.\n\nAs far as I know, what we're talking about is whether Judaism has the idea\nthat men who don't have orgasms attain spiritual capabilities unavailable\nto other men.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In all of the following questions, the term 'a Jew' refers to a Jewish\nman\nwho is conforming to halacha (ie, is orthoprax)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "With whom may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His wife. Most men are obliged to marry by the age of 20, but I'll\nmention exceptions below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "May a Jew have any kind of sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any time, as long as he doesn't do it in the street and frighten the\nhorses. (Apparently it's not allowed in the presence of any creature.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "May a Jew masturbate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No.\n\nYou left out: How often must a Jew have sex?\n\nAs often as his wife asks for her conjugal rights, up to a maximum that\ndepends on his job, from every night for men who do not-too-demanding\nphysical work in the city where they live, to once every six months for a\nsailor.\n\nThere are some interesting glimpses of Maimonides' statements on this\nsubject on limited preview at\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=JFny1k_bv5cC&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nIt says he thought that a student may delay marriage--not for any stated\nspiritual reasons, but to avoid distractions. He also seems to said the\nrabbi Ben Azzai (who said being childless was as evil as shedding blood)\nwas permitted not to marry at because Ben Azzai was interested only in\nstudy, not in sex, though other authorities of the time thought Ben Azzai\nwas sinning. In general, Maimonides seems to have seen sexuality as a\ndistraction, though a required one.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-05T13:02:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<680360.90149.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was a mistake for me to even bring this up.\n\nI am sorry I did it.\n\nI'm done now.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm afraid I don't follow. Who is \"this guy\"? What do you mean by\n\"spends half his time not having sex and not masturbating\"? Half his\nlife? And if we're talking about a real person such as Ben Azzai, I\nbelieve people who are forbidden by their religion to have sex sometimes\ndo anyway, and even more so for masturbation, so I couldn't even guess\nwhether someone abstained from orgasms.\n\nThe sentence with \"week\" and \"month\" makes no sense to me.\n\n\nWhoever it is, if he's an Orthodox Jew, he probably does say the normal\nprayers and put on phylacteries (\"lay tefillin\", as many American Jews\nsay) every day.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 11:00:20 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\nEarth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))\n\nSo basically, this guy spends half his time not having sex and not\nmasturbating.\n\nHe goes for one good week without having sex every month.\n\nHe's still wrapping phylacteries every day isn't he?\n\nStill saying the normal prayers?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I said, I don't object to anything in that reply to me. I don't\nthink\nyou have anything to apologize for. I'm sorry to hear you're in pain,\nthough, and I hope it goes away.\n\nAs far as I know, what we're talking about is whether Judaism has the\nidea\nthat men who don't have orgasms attain spiritual capabilities\nunavailable\nto other men.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In all of the following questions, the term 'a Jew' refers to a Jewish\nman\nwho is conforming to halacha (ie, is orthoprax)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "With whom may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His wife. Most men are obliged to marry by the age of 20, but I'll\nmention exceptions below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "May a Jew have any kind of sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When may a Jew have sex?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any time, as long as he doesn't do it in the street and frighten the\nhorses. (Apparently it's not allowed in the presence of any creature.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "May a Jew masturbate?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No.\n\nYou left out: How often must a Jew have sex?\n\nAs often as his wife asks for her conjugal rights, up to a maximum that\ndepends on his job, from every night for men who do not-too-demanding\nphysical work in the city where they live, to once every six months for\na\nsailor.\n\nThere are some interesting glimpses of Maimonides' statements on this\nsubject on limited preview at\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=JFny1k_bv5cC&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false\n\nIt says he thought that a student may delay marriage--not for any stated\nspiritual reasons, but to avoid distractions. He also seems to said the\nrabbi Ben Azzai (who said being childless was as evil as shedding blood)\nwas permitted not to marry at because Ben Azzai was interested only in\nstudy, not in sex, though other authorities of the time thought Ben\nAzzai\nwas sinning. In general, Maimonides seems to have seen sexuality as a\ndistraction, though a required one.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0A7467.8080405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T15:59:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &\n Earth (was \"Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\"))", "in_reply_to": "<680360.90149.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/05/2010 07:56 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI'm afraid I don't follow. Who is \"this guy\"? What do you mean by \"spends half his time not having sex and not masturbating\"? Half his life?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hell, even I do this. I mean, at least now that I'm not working from home.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-05T19:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth & Earth (was \"Travelling\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C099297.5050502@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All religions have similar doctrines regarding the use and retention of\nsemen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnd let's not forget the Sweet Science as this exchange in the gym demonstrates\n \n \nMickey: \" Listen, kid, you! You lay off that pet shop dame. Women weaken legs.\" \n \nRocky: \"Yeah, but I really like this girl, ya know?\" \n \nMickey: \"Then let her train ya!!\" \n\nRocky: \"... Okay, okay.. no more foolin' around......Women weaken legs\" \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0B2BC1.8010702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:01:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C09CFD0.20501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 11:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are \ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:12:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0B2BC1.8010702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shadow.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 11:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are\ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6c68b1707966ba34bc8d75f607535254.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T05:13:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll reserve my turn.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shadow.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/4/2010 11:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are\ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:13:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nThat's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes Ushas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big \nBangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself into\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs itself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.\n\nThat of the Hierodules is called Briah.\n\n- Gerry Quinn. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4fc3d8b780f8efd7f886dab0a04b00e8.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T16:38:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We live in Assiah.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes\nUshas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big\nBangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself\ninto\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs\nitself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.\n\nThat of the Hierodules is called Briah.\n\n- Gerry Quinn.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BEDEA.6040308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T18:50:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 12:12 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nShadow.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/4/2010 11:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are\ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not in _Shadow_, though some items are common to both." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0BF0C6.7050401@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T19:02:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 11:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes\nUshas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big\nBangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself\ninto\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs\nitself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.\n\nThat of the Hierodules is called Briah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening of \nURTH's Chapter XV Yesod:\n\n\"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the \nsky of Yesod, ...\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<175b8109d747d7601b779e959414bd2d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T19:03:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BEDEA.6040308@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The answer to the riddle is 'your shadow'.\n\nAnd, as I say, I am reserving my turn.\n\nYou may regret that you started this game.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 12:12 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shadow.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/4/2010 11:17 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/4/2010 6:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will\nperform the action I describe in my second sentence above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean\nriddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are\ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not in _Shadow_, though some items are common to both.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C2192.8040902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-06T22:30:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<175b8109d747d7601b779e959414bd2d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 2:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe answer to the riddle is 'your shadow'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either way that's a fair guess at a partial solution, though I \nconsidered a book is a more suitable place to find writing than a \nsilhouette." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, as I say, I am reserving my turn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not meant to be a turnwise game as far a guessing goes, just like \npeople don't have to take turns reading Wolfe's stories and figuring out \nwhat they mean. The person gets their turn to make a riddle by solving \nthe previous one. I suppose we might decide that there needs to be some \nstopping conditions for unsolved riddles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean\nriddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are\ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4e6e53458285120dbb4a5d29d988bffb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-06T22:34:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C2192.8040902@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The riddle game is an ancient game.\n\nIt is a game of turns and forfeits.\n\nYou did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 2:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The answer to the riddle is 'your shadow'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way that's a fair guess at a partial solution, though I\nconsidered a book is a more suitable place to find writing than a\nsilhouette." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, as I say, I am reserving my turn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not meant to be a turnwise game as far a guessing goes, just like\npeople don't have to take turns reading Wolfe's stories and figuring out\nwhat they mean. The person gets their turn to make a riddle by solving\nthe previous one. I suppose we might decide that there needs to be some\nstopping conditions for unsolved riddles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean\nriddle:\n\nMy writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot,\nbehind\nthe baseboards with everyone else's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you\nare\ninvited to \"play\" and solve the riddle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C4205.2060700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T00:49:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4e6e53458285120dbb4a5d29d988bffb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 5:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe riddle game is an ancient game.\n\nIt is a game of turns and forfeits.\n\nYou did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally \nWolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is \nthe hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having \nmade a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues. I \nmuch prefer the \"speak friend and enter\" sort of contest than the \"what \nhave I got in my pocket\" kind." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T00:59:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C4205.2060700@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that is the game you like, that is the game you should play.\n\nYou did not.\n\nThese games are not random.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 5:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The riddle game is an ancient game.\n\nIt is a game of turns and forfeits.\n\nYou did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally\nWolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is\nthe hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having\nmade a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues. I\nmuch prefer the \"speak friend and enter\" sort of contest than the \"what\nhave I got in my pocket\" kind.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T00:59:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C4205.2060700@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2010, at 7:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/6/2010 5:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The riddle game is an ancient game.\n\nIt is a game of turns and forfeits.\n\nYou did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally Wolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is the hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having made a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues. I much prefer the \"speak friend and enter\" sort of contest than the \"what have I got in my pocket\" kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TEETH! Answer's always \"teeth.\"\n\nWell, sometimes it's \"swordfish.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:01:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooo, that makes me cringe just thinking about it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2010, at 7:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/6/2010 5:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The riddle game is an ancient game.\n\nIt is a game of turns and forfeits.\n\nYou did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally\nWolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is\nthe hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having\nmade a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues. I\nmuch prefer the \"speak friend and enter\" sort of contest than the \"what\nhave I got in my pocket\" kind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TEETH! Answer's always \"teeth.\"\n\nWell, sometimes it's \"swordfish.\"\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The teeth.\n\nThe swordfish not so much.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2010, at 7:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/6/2010 5:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The riddle game is an ancient game.\n\nIt is a game of turns and forfeits.\n\nYou did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally\nWolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is\nthe hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having\nmade a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues. I\nmuch prefer the \"speak friend and enter\" sort of contest than the \"what\nhave I got in my pocket\" kind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TEETH! Answer's always \"teeth.\"\n\nWell, sometimes it's \"swordfish.\"\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:02:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2010, at 8:01 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe teeth.\n\nThe swordfish not so much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not a swordfish in your pocket?\n\nThen I guess you ARE happy to see me.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2b7f375f6a8428e7fa8a5d68208a6dfe.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your turn in the barrel, darlin'...\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2010, at 8:01 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The teeth.\n\nThe swordfish not so much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not a swordfish in your pocket?\n\nThen I guess you ARE happy to see me.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C4EB2.1000702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:43:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 7:59 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIf that is the game you like, that is the game you should play.\n\nYou did not.\n\nThese games are not random." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you can point out where I overtly agreed to play some other kind of \nriddle game, I'll apologize handsomely." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6f37494ae4f07ee5b904458cd49ca675.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T01:53:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C4EB2.1000702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You started the game.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 7:59 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If that is the game you like, that is the game you should play.\n\nYou did not.\n\nThese games are not random." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you can point out where I overtly agreed to play some other kind of\nriddle game, I'll apologize handsomely.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0C6609.2000507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T03:22:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<6f37494ae4f07ee5b904458cd49ca675.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 8:53 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYou started the game." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ergo you agreed to play my game. Thank you!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4eba6ea2b714a7028c687ff2342fce3c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T06:26:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0C6609.2000507@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not your game.\n\nIt has in fact begun.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/6/2010 8:53 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You started the game." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ergo you agreed to play my game. Thank you!\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0CDD32.2060107@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T11:51:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4eba6ea2b714a7028c687ff2342fce3c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 1:26 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt is not your game.\n\nIt has in fact begun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then you can consider my forfeit is for you to leave off your notion of \nthe game and continue under mine, as I am not terribly keen for a \nstranger who packs both heat and a disreagrd for social norms to \nunilaterally decide I owe him something." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7b88aa701bd920dc7481c25988769c16.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T11:53:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<4C0CDD32.2060107@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The point where the game may end has passed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 1:26 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not your game.\n\nIt has in fact begun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then you can consider my forfeit is for you to leave off your notion of\nthe game and continue under mine, as I am not terribly keen for a\nstranger who packs both heat and a disreagrd for social norms to\nunilaterally decide I owe him something.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T11:54:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Riddle Me This, Urth-Dwellers!", "in_reply_to": "<7b88aa701bd920dc7481c25988769c16.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The point where you may have introduced a forfeit is long passed.\n\nIt is not my fault that you did not believe the stories you were told when\nyou were a small child.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The point where the game may end has passed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/7/2010 1:26 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is not your game.\n\nIt has in fact begun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then you can consider my forfeit is for you to leave off your notion of\nthe game and continue under mine, as I am not terribly keen for a\nstranger who packs both heat and a disreagrd for social norms to\nunilaterally decide I owe him something.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T12:39:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C0BF0C6.7050401@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right - I got them back to front.\n\nBut I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the same \nunivese at different times.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:02 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe\nOn 6/6/2010 11:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes\nUshas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big\nBangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself\ninto\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs\nitself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.\n\nThat of the Hierodules is called Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening of \nURTH's Chapter XV Yesod:\n\n\"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the \nsky of Yesod, ...\"\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<420a708b3b59291ac46598a6d4407891.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-07T12:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In QBLH they are nested Worlds.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're right - I got them back to front.\n\nBut I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the same\nunivese at different times.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:02 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/6/2010 11:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes\nUshas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big\nBangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself\ninto\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs\nitself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.\n\nThat of the Hierodules is called Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening of\nURTH's Chapter XV Yesod:\n\n\"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the\nsky of Yesod, ...\"\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0CEED7.4060008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T13:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 7:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nYou're right - I got them back to front.\n\nBut I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the same\nunivese at different times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think anyone's asserted they are." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D1AD5.2000205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T16:14:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I thought that Yesod was a megauniverse with Briah being \nequivalent to a planet within it? Is that wrong?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 7:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nYou're right - I got them back to front.\n\nBut I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the \nsame univese at different times.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:02 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/6/2010 11:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes\nUshas\nnot Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big\nBangs\ninto existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself\ninto\na single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs\nitself\ninto a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.\n\nThat of the Hierodules is called Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening \nof URTH's Chapter XV Yesod:\n\n\"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in \nthe sky of Yesod, ...\"\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D2CE3.3020601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T17:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D1AD5.2000205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 11:14 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI guess I thought that Yesod was a megauniverse with Briah being\nequivalent to a planet within it? Is that wrong?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Briah is a universe very much like our own, with lots of galaxies. All \nwe see of Yesod is a huge planet-like mechanism that supposedly has an \nisland or group of islands for each inhabited galaxy or group of \ngalaxies in Briah. This makes the Yesod universe still pretty small \ncompared to Briah, or it could be that The Ship is just very accurate in \nwhere it emerges into the higher dimension.\n\nThe Yesodis show they are able to open peep-holes into Briah, and in \nfact that is how Severian returns to our universe by leaping through one \nto join The Ship \"after\" it has left without him. I say \"after\" with the \nquotes becuase some of the people on The Ship are younger than he \nencountered them before, and it famously arrives a thousand years before \nhe first boarded it.\n\nThis peep-hole between the dimensions is described as moonlike in \nappearance, just as the dimensional apperature where The Ship entered \nYesod was. This was the basis for my pet theory that the Whorl could \nhave been secretly diverted by the Yesodis to just about anywhere in \nBriah's space or time, allowing Blue and Green to be Urth and Lune \nPLANET OF THE APES-style, but that's largely fallen by the wayside now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T17:40:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D2CE3.3020601@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening of \nURTH's Chapter XV Yesod:\n\"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the \nsky of Yesod, ...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not clear on how this passage contradicts the idea of universal \ncollapse of Briah leading to a Big Bang creation of Yesod. In describing\ntravel from one universe to another I can see how Wolfe might envision it\nthis way. Some explanation please? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0D36BE.3030805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:13:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 12:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nJeff Wilson posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening of\nURTH's Chapter XV Yesod:\n\"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the\nsky of Yesod, ...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not clear on how this passage contradicts the idea of universal\ncollapse of Briah leading to a Big Bang creation of Yesod. In describing\ntravel from one universe to another I can see how Wolfe might envision it\nthis way. Some explanation please? \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yesod's too small in scope; just one enormous machine-planet." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1C3CB717443B4FB5B23653467BA709EA@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-07T18:55:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C0D1AD5.2000205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws of \nphysics in Briah by travelling faster than light (though the mechanism \nproposed, tacking across the light from the stars, is cute but unfeasible).\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nI guess I thought that Yesod was a megauniverse with Briah being equivalent \nto a planet within it? Is that wrong?\n\nOn 6/7/2010 7:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right - I got them back to front.\n\nBut I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the same \nunivese at different times.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eugene Zaretskiy", "address": "eugene.zar at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T20:13:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1C3CB717443B4FB5B23653467BA709EA@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI don't think so. — To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws of\nphysics in Briah by travelling faster than light (though the mechanism\nproposed, tacking across the light from the stars, is cute but unfeasible)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't mean to pick on you, but I've always thought these types of\nstatements were quite presumptive. Yours is a common argument to make\nagainst many ideas presented in science fiction. Educated folk mere\ndecades ago explained in simple science why some of the technologies\navailable today would be impossible to make. Yet the ingenuity of the\nmodern inventor constantly foils such assumptions. I'm sure you could\npoint out the fallacy in their thinking, but the fact remains that\ncountless millennia have passed between now and the time these ships\nwere \"invented\" (assuming someone, at some point, had to come up with\nthe technology). Are you absolutely certain that it simply isn't\npossible that Severian's one-line explanation of how the ship sails is\naccurate?\n\nNot that it really matters. I just think it's rather groundless to\npredict that a proposed method of travel used millennia from now is\nunfeasible when we can't even predict what the weather tomorrow will\nbe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess I thought that Yesod was a megauniverse with Briah being\nequivalent to a planet within it? Is that wrong?\n\nOn 6/7/2010 7:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You're right - I got them back to front.\n\nBut I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the same\nunivese at different times.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<19DE1994772240508E392EC950186D6C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-09T15:38:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know that even 'hard' SF writers generally get a free pass when it comes \nto FTL travel. But the method described in 'Urth of the New Sun' has two \nproblems with it.\n\nFirst, there is the usual issue of travelling faster than light. Special \nrelativity is well established, and while it could be replaced by a new \n'aether' theory, any such theory would have the same issue with a maximum \nspeed. We regularly push stuff to >99% of light speed and we know what \nhappens.\n\nSecondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works for \nsailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't hold up \nbecause light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal to its \ndirection of travel, as moving air does.\n\nIt's not a big issue, and in fact I mentioned it because I think it's a very \nnice idea. But we can be pretty certain that no future technology will use \nit.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\nFrom: \"Eugene Zaretskiy\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI don't think so. To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws of\nphysics in Briah by travelling faster than light (though the mechanism\nproposed, tacking across the light from the stars, is cute but \nunfeasible)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't mean to pick on you, but I've always thought these types of\nstatements were quite presumptive. Yours is a common argument to make\nagainst many ideas presented in science fiction. Educated folk mere\ndecades ago explained in simple science why some of the technologies\navailable today would be impossible to make. Yet the ingenuity of the\nmodern inventor constantly foils such assumptions. I'm sure you could\npoint out the fallacy in their thinking, but the fact remains that\ncountless millennia have passed between now and the time these ships\nwere \"invented\" (assuming someone, at some point, had to come up with\nthe technology). Are you absolutely certain that it simply isn't\npossible that Severian's one-line explanation of how the ship sails is\naccurate?\n\nNot that it really matters. I just think it's rather groundless to\npredict that a proposed method of travel used millennia from now is\nunfeasible when we can't even predict what the weather tomorrow will\nbe. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-09T15:47:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<19DE1994772240508E392EC950186D6C@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it very difficult to take any purported Irishman who claims not to\nbelieve in fairies seriously.\n\nEspecially when he is spurting this fanboy stuff all over the Gene Wolfe\nlist.\n\nI believe that Wolfe describes the Book of the New Sun as science fantasy.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know that even 'hard' SF writers generally get a free pass when it comes\nto FTL travel. But the method described in 'Urth of the New Sun' has two\nproblems with it.\n\nFirst, there is the usual issue of travelling faster than light. Special\nrelativity is well established, and while it could be replaced by a new\n'aether' theory, any such theory would have the same issue with a maximum\nspeed. We regularly push stuff to >99% of light speed and we know what\nhappens.\n\nSecondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works\nfor\nsailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't hold\nup\nbecause light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal to its\ndirection of travel, as moving air does.\n\nIt's not a big issue, and in fact I mentioned it because I think it's a\nvery\nnice idea. But we can be pretty certain that no future technology will\nuse\nit.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\nFrom: \"Eugene Zaretskiy\" \nOn Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so. To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws\nof\nphysics in Briah by travelling faster than light (though the mechanism\nproposed, tacking across the light from the stars, is cute but\nunfeasible)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mean to pick on you, but I've always thought these types of\nstatements were quite presumptive. Yours is a common argument to make\nagainst many ideas presented in science fiction. Educated folk mere\ndecades ago explained in simple science why some of the technologies\navailable today would be impossible to make. Yet the ingenuity of the\nmodern inventor constantly foils such assumptions. I'm sure you could\npoint out the fallacy in their thinking, but the fact remains that\ncountless millennia have passed between now and the time these ships\nwere \"invented\" (assuming someone, at some point, had to come up with\nthe technology). Are you absolutely certain that it simply isn't\npossible that Severian's one-line explanation of how the ship sails is\naccurate?\n\nNot that it really matters. I just think it's rather groundless to\npredict that a proposed method of travel used millennia from now is\nunfeasible when we can't even predict what the weather tomorrow will\nbe.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-09T16:55:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSecondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works for\nsailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't hold up\nbecause light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal to its\ndirection of travel, as moving air does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sails in question aren't your common-or-garden solar sails, but\nthe same monster-summoning, space-warping mirrors found in the\nAutarch's book and Father Inire's workshop. It's not a pressure-driven\nmeans of transport." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C10968B.30007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T07:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<19DE1994772240508E392EC950186D6C@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/9/2010 10:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI know that even 'hard' SF writers generally get a free pass when it\ncomes to FTL travel. But the method described in 'Urth of the New Sun'\nhas two problems with it.\n\nFirst, there is the usual issue of travelling faster than light. Special\nrelativity is well established, and while it could be replaced by a new\n'aether' theory, any such theory would have the same issue with a\nmaximum speed. We regularly push stuff to >99% of light speed and we\nknow what happens.\n\nSecondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works\nfor sailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't\nhold up because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal\nto its direction of travel, as moving air does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not entirely correct; if the light is reflected at an angle, it \nimparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For \nexample if light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is \nreflected to the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing \nreally happens, and produces a measureable effect on natural and \nartificial satellites _over_a_period_of_years_.\n\nThe trick then is not how The Ship is propelled, but rather how The \nShip's inertia is nullified to allow this \nmore-feeble-than-a-thousand-year-old-butterfly push to make it \naccelerate so quickly." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-10T12:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C10968B.30007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 6/9/2010 10:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Secondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works\nfor sailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't\nhold up because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal\nto its direction of travel, as moving air does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not entirely correct; if the light is reflected at an angle, it \nimparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For example \nif light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is reflected \nto the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing really happens, \nand produces a measureable effect on natural and artificial satellites \n_over_a_period_of_years_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but this is different from the 'airfoil' mechanism that can propel a \nboat faster than the wind, and which is not available in the case of light. \nThat said, I think I was wrong to place so much store in this, as light also \nhas comensating advantages - unlike air, it will not necessarily resist \nobjects that are already in motion relative to it\n\nThere still is the issue of accelerating *past* the speed of light, however, \nwhich applies to all similar FTL mechanisms.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-10T13:18:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All you need are two streams, in one or two media, which flow at different\nspeeds.\n\nThe lengthy masts might be to catch different currents in the flow.\n\nI have designed a wind powered airship: it is the same principle.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 6/9/2010 10:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Secondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works\nfor sailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't\nhold up because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal\nto its direction of travel, as moving air does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not entirely correct; if the light is reflected at an angle, it\nimparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For\nexample\nif light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is reflected\nto the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing really happens,\nand produces a measureable effect on natural and artificial satellites\n_over_a_period_of_years_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but this is different from the 'airfoil' mechanism that can propel a\nboat faster than the wind, and which is not available in the case of\nlight.\nThat said, I think I was wrong to place so much store in this, as light\nalso\nhas comensating advantages - unlike air, it will not necessarily resist\nobjects that are already in motion relative to it\n\nThere still is the issue of accelerating *past* the speed of light,\nhowever,\nwhich applies to all similar FTL mechanisms.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T13:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \n\n On 6/9/2010 10:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Secondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works\nfor sailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't\nhold up because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal\nto its direction of travel, as moving air does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not entirely correct; if the light is reflected at an angle, it\nimparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For example\nif light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is reflected to\nthe west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing really happens, and\nproduces a measureable effect on natural and artificial satellites\n_over_a_period_of_years_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but this is different from the 'airfoil' mechanism that can propel a\nboat faster than the wind, and which is not available in the case of light.\nThat said, I think I was wrong to place so much store in this, as light also\nhas comensating advantages - unlike air, it will not necessarily resist\nobjects that are already in motion relative to it\n\nThere still is the issue of accelerating *past* the speed of light,\nhowever, which applies to all similar FTL mechanisms.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n.\n\n\nIt is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light would allow\nyou to go backward in time. If the mathematics of the relativity equations\ncorrectly describes reality, then a velocity greater than the speed of light\nputs you not into negative time but into imaginary time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe SF should just rely on old-fashioned hyperspace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C10EEB2.9070808@lpthe.jussieu.fr>", "from": { "name": "Paul Zinn-Justin", "address": "pzinn at lpthe.jussieu.fr" }, "date": "2010-06-10T13:54:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is a \nmathematical artefact.\nThe real point is, if you combine faster than light travel and Lorentz \ninvariance of the laws of physics (the invariance principle that is the \nbasis of Einstein's theory of special relativity), then you can indeed \nhave trajectories which connect two arbitrary points of spacetime i.e. \nin a given reference frame it will look like you can move freely forward \nor backwards in time (you're not going ``straight'' into the past -- \nyou're making little loops, like travelling to a distant star faster \nthan light and then coming back the same way)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/10/2010 03:45 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\n\n\n It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light\n would allow you to go backward in time. If the mathematics of\n the relativity equations correctly describes reality, then a\n velocity greater than the speed of light puts you not into\n negative time but into imaginary time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2bdf2f4f6eecc0c66d924cb89dfbb476.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-10T14:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C10EEB2.9070808@lpthe.jussieu.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool.\n]\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is a\nmathematical artefact.\nThe real point is, if you combine faster than light travel and Lorentz\ninvariance of the laws of physics (the invariance principle that is the\nbasis of Einstein's theory of special relativity), then you can indeed\nhave trajectories which connect two arbitrary points of spacetime i.e.\nin a given reference frame it will look like you can move freely forward\nor backwards in time (you're not going ``straight'' into the past --\nyou're making little loops, like travelling to a distant star faster\nthan light and then coming back the same way).\n\nOn 06/10/2010 03:45 PM, Jack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light\n would allow you to go backward in time. If the mathematics of\n the relativity equations correctly describes reality, then a\n velocity greater than the speed of light puts you not into\n negative time but into imaginary time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-10T14:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C10EEB2.9070808@lpthe.jussieu.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is a\nmathematical artefact.\nThe real point is, if you combine faster than light travel and Lorentz\ninvariance of the laws of physics (the invariance principle that is the\nbasis of Einstein's theory of special relativity), then you can indeed\nhave trajectories which connect two arbitrary points of spacetime i.e.\nin a given reference frame it will look like you can move freely forward\nor backwards in time (you're not going ``straight'' into the past --\nyou're making little loops, like travelling to a distant star faster\nthan light and then coming back the same way).\n\nOn 06/10/2010 03:45 PM, Jack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light\n would allow you to go backward in time. If the mathematics of\n the relativity equations correctly describes reality, then a\n velocity greater than the speed of light puts you not into\n negative time but into imaginary time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1140D1.90103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T19:45:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C10EEB2.9070808@lpthe.jussieu.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That said, I'd prefer to travel in imaginary time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 8:54 AM, Paul Zinn-Justin wrote:\nThat is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is \na mathematical artefact.\n\nOn 06/10/2010 03:45 PM, Jack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light would \nallow you to go backward in time. If the mathematics of the \nrelativity equations correctly describes reality, then a velocity \ngreater than the speed of light puts you not into negative time but \ninto imaginary time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C11794C.1050507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T23:46:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 7:50 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 6/9/2010 10:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Secondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works\nfor sailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't\nhold up because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal\nto its direction of travel, as moving air does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not entirely correct; if the light is reflected at an angle, it\nimparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For\nexample if light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is\nreflected to the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing\nreally happens, and produces a measureable effect on natural and\nartificial satellites _over_a_period_of_years_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but this is different from the 'airfoil' mechanism that can propel\na boat faster than the wind, and which is not available in the case of\nlight. That said, I think I was wrong to place so much store in this, as\nlight also has comensating advantages - unlike air, it will not\nnecessarily resist objects that are already in motion relative to it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true, but it is still tacking in the sense of rigging the sails \nat similar angles to get transverse propulsion - and since the speakers \nare originally educated as wet sailors rather than physicists, \n\"tacking\" is the most accurate word they have for it. And The Ship does \nend up going faster than light, just like a surface vessel tacking \nagainst the wind can make better than windspeed, so again \"tacking\" is \nthe metaphorically most correct word a simple sailor can use." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There still is the issue of accelerating *past* the speed of light,\nhowever, which applies to all similar FTL mechanisms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Ship going FTL can be attributed to it traveling into that unseen \ndirection that Juturna points into and the direction F B & O's saucer \ntakes when it leaves Baldanders' castle, the conceit being that \nrelativity doesn't cover that fifth dimension with the same constraints \nas our familiar four.\n\nThere is a mathematical comcept analagous to this called surreal \nnumbers, invented about 1976 and covered in some popular science \nliterature, and the notation employed used a metaphor similar to Zeno's \nparadox, of traveling an infinite distance in one direction, then one \nstep more, and mapping this additional distance to the side, and \nrepeating that ad infinitum, producing not just a new dimension but all \nkinds of mathematical structures with suggestive names like transfinite \nordered fields that could easily be an influence on the imagery of Yesod." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CDB8CC2-BBD5-4D78-911F-FAB7A7FEA455@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T00:03:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C11794C.1050507@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 10, 2010, at 6:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nThere is a mathematical comcept analagous to this called surreal numbers, invented about 1976 and covered in some popular science literature, and the notation employed used a metaphor similar to Zeno's paradox, of traveling an infinite distance in one direction, then one step more, and mapping this additional distance to the side, and repeating that ad infinitum, producing not just a new dimension but all kinds of mathematical structures with suggestive names like transfinite ordered fields that could easily be an influence on the imagery of Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Invented earlier than that....in 1970 or so (at least, those are the first lectures) by John Horton Conway, whom you may know from the mathematical recreation \"The Game Of Life\". Notable because its moniker and first publication came from Don Knuth, who of course is most famous for his Mad Magazine article, \"The Potrzebie System of Weights and Measures\" (his subsequent career at Stanford University has also been of some minor interest), and is unusual--perhaps unique--for the first public appearance of a mathematical theory in that it is presented in the form of a love story. That novella (1974) is entitled _Surreal Numbers_ and is still in print, should you wish to order a copy. The theory is worked out in a more traditional form in Conway's _On Numbers and Games_, published in 1976 and with a second edition in 2001.\n\nIt is the most beautiful example of bootstrapping something from very nearly nothing that I know. \n\nThe Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number is a pretty good introduction, but I can't recommend _ONAG_ too highly. And the \"On Games\" part? Well, not to give it away, but a game is a number with certain of the definitory conditions relaxed; it turns out that both numbers and games-which-are-not-numbers (numbers are all games, but not vice-versa) can be used as descriptions of positions in a certain class of what-we-commonly-call-games, namely those in which there are two players, both have perfect knowledge of the game state, and there is no random element. You can prove all sorts of interesting things with this theory.\n\nAlso: regarding Brunians' airship design, I demand that he grow long white whiskers, as it is now impossible for me to visualize him as anything other than the White Knight. I wonder whether he balances very badly when sliding down pokers.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C117DA0.5080403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T00:04:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C10EEB2.9070808@lpthe.jussieu.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 8:54 AM, Paul Zinn-Justin wrote:\nThat is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is a\nmathematical artefact.\nThe real point is, if you combine faster than light travel and Lorentz\ninvariance of the laws of physics (the invariance principle that is the\nbasis of Einstein's theory of special relativity), then you can indeed\nhave trajectories which connect two arbitrary points of spacetime i.e.\nin a given reference frame it will look like you can move freely forward\nor backwards in time (you're not going ``straight'' into the past --\nyou're making little loops, like travelling to a distant star faster\nthan light and then coming back the same way)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the limerick is not just cute but technically accurate:\n\nThere was a young lady named Bright\nWhose speed was much faster than light;\nShe set out one day,\nIn a relative way\nAnd returned on the previous night.\n\n- Inflicted by Arthur Henry Reginald Buller, in the December 19, 1923 \nissue of Punch" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }