Subject: (urth) Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe

From: Tim O'Donnell <timodonn at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:32:07 +0000

>But I see two possibilities in addition to Mr. Wolfe's starting with the
idea that Urth was in our future and retconning it into a past universe.
One is the >apparently Brunian possibility that different universes and
iterations will have overwhelming similarities for reasons we don't
understand (unless Josh does).  >In that case many or all of the universes
have the names "Robert" and "Marie" at some point ("Marie" coming from
"Miriam" even though there was no Mary >Mother of Jesus).  Even the saints'
names could be names of exemplary people who were equivalent to the saints
of our world.

I always thought Wolfe answered questions about the nature of Christ in
Severian's universe obliquely but definitively in BOTNS.  Time is not linear
and future events influence past events.  The legend of Baldanders and his
doctor ripple through time to inspire our own Dr Frankenstein.  A stone
dropped in a pond sends ripples in all directions and I believe the analogy
holds here; time is not linear and immutable but elastic and intertwined.
As things such as Christianity exist in our universe and have such a
strong influence they can (and in my opinion do) send ripples of influence
to Severian - wherever he is placed.
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:45:47 +0000

On 6/4/2010 3:32 AM, Tim O'Donnell wrote:
> linear and future events influence past events.  The legend of
> Baldanders and his doctor ripple through time to inspire our own Dr
> Frankenstein.  A stone dropped in a pond sends ripples in all directions
> and I believe the analogy holds here; time is not linear and immutable
> but elastic and intertwined.  As things such as Christianity exist in
> our universe and have such a strong influence they can (and in my
> opinion do) send ripples of influence to Severian - wherever he is placed.

What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all 
the rest?

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 09:36:13 +0000

Talos remarks upon it when it occurs.

He is an educated homunculus.

.

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---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:23:54 +0000

> He is an educated homunculus.

How does Talos pick those ripples out from the ripples from all the 
other events in all of time, space, and dimension?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:32:56 +0000

He is present at the echoing event.

Since he is educated, he understands how the World works.

Since he is educated, he has read / is familiar with Frankenstein.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:56:54 +0000

> Since he is educated, he understands how the World works.

Where did he get this education in the secret nature of reality?

> Since he is educated, he has read / is familiar with Frankenstein.

How did Mary Shelly pick them out?

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:56:41 +0000

Lots of drugs?  Too much time spent with Byron?

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:02:22 +0000

It is not documented.

Apparently, Baldanders wished to have an educated physician.

So, by whatever means, he educated him or had him educated.

.

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:31:07 +0000

>How did Mary Shelly pick them out?

I'm not sure if that was a rhetorical question or not, but anyway:

Mary Shelley, famously, was inspired to write Frankenstein by a
*dream* she had. At a villa on Lake (hint hint) Geneva. Dr Talos isn't
saying events in his time influence events in ours, he's saying they
influence our dreams.

> What makes the ripples from the Frankenstein stone stand out from all

They don't, necessarily. Maybe we're all having dreams inspired by
Urthian events, all the time. It's just that in this case the dream
was recorded and that record  - somewhat miraculously - survived long
enough for one of its instigators to identify it.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:19:38 +0000

Dreams don't take place in linear time.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:32:31 +0000

> Dreams don't take place in linear time.

That makes it even less likely - how does a person's sleeping mind 
select an images of an event from among all the events, ever? Imagine a 
radio that picks up not only every station in the world, but every 
program every station has ever played.

When Clarke used the idea in CHILDHOOD'S END, it made bit more sense: 
the occupation of the Earth by aliens was a singular event in human 
history, and signaled the approaching end of human history.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:51:12 +0000

I am talking about something Real, which I have experienced.

.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:53:37 +0000

I like the idea of the presence of Baldanders/Talos rippling through
time and space to affect the dreams of Mary Shelley on Lake Geneva
(or vice versa).
 
Still there are other Earthly artifacts on Urth which seem to demand
a more substantial connection, most notably in the Jungle Hut. I think
the Jungle Hut actually exists on Earth not Urth, and that Severian has
passed through a portal from one world/universe to the other to get there.
I think Borski identified a historical pair of missionaries who perhaps 
form the basis for Robert and Marie. And I suspect the master of portals
on Urth, Father Inire, is found in that hut. We get most of our glimpses
of the mysterious Padre in cowled or masked form but I think in the Hut
we get an all too explicit view of him as buck naked Isangoma. 		 	   		  
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---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:18:59 +0000

> we get an all too explicit view of him as buck naked Isangoma. 		 	   		

That's my other concern with the "Urth preceeds Earth" theory: it seems 
like an awful lot of hand-wringing is done over the fate of Urth when 
it's a simple matter to stroll in the Gardens and see how things turned 
out.

Personally, I think Wolfe borrowed from the "All Our Yesterdays" episode 
of Star Trek where the Sarpeidons escape the end of their world by 
emigrating to historical eras. It doesn't hurt that Mr Atoz, the time 
librarian, was played by Ian ("eon"?) Wolfe.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:26:44 +0000

> Since he is educated, he has read / is familiar wit
Green has an interesting explanation of how this works in  There Are 
Doors. The various dimensions of There Are Doors with some worlds 
"closer" to each other than others are (like strings on a guitar), is 
indistinguishable from tBotNS's succession of universes, at least from 
Green and Sev's POV.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:25:00 +0000

>it's a simple matter to stroll in the Gardens and see how things turned 

That's not really the interpretatation I am presenting. Urth becomes Ushas
not Earth. Urth is part of an entire universe, named Briah, which Big Bangs
into existence, runs its course then collapses and Grand Gnabs itself into
a single mass and out of existence. This single mass then Big Bangs itself
into a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod. 
 
Yesod, in the course of its existence, has a planet called Earth which is
cognate to but not directly evolved from Urth or Ushas. Instead of Urth's
Commonwealth and Severian, Earth has South America and Jesus.  I think
Earth resides in Yesod Universe because they both have an arch-angel named
Tzadkiel. Briah does not have a Tzadkiel (though it might have a Zak).

Also, I don't think just anyone can stroll up to the Jungle Hut and take a peek.
The twisting path surely leads different people to different destinations.
The labyrinthine path to the Jungle Hut resembles the path to the Atrium of
Time and the path to the Last House. I think Severian is privileged in his
access to these portals.

I think it is noteworthy that Agia (and first time readers) find the 
conversation in the Jungle Hut to be a lot of pointless nonsense, but 
Severian and some multiple-time readers find the conversation and its
Biblical references to be fascinating and perhaps fraught with meaning.
(True also of Dr. Talos' play). 		 	   		  
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:36:19 +0000

Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in 
"The Book of the Long Sun"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the 
Chapter as a "parody of the state religion of her own whorl". I suppose 
it is possible to claim that that "state religion" was not Catholicism, 
but I don't know why anyone would bother.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:37:15 +0000

I'm not sure how trustworthy a source Lemur is...

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no Jesus in "The
> Book of the Long Sun"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the Chapter as a
> "parody of the state religion of her own whorl". I suppose it is possible to
> claim that that "state religion" was not Catholicism, but I don't know why
> anyone would bother.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:38:05 +0000

True for just about any character in a Wolfe story.
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com>  wrote:
>

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:04:53 +0000

On the other hand, it is possible for a "Catholic Church" to have been 
established in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete with crosses) 
merely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just as in 
Green's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at weddings only 
because they do it in Lara's dimension.

In that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find 
that less satisfying.

J.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:10:05 +0000

How Catholic is the Chapter, really?

Naturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy.  But the
Catholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and priestly
celibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many Buddhist groups,
um...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well).
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> In that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I find that
> less satisfying.
>
> J.
>
>
>>>> "The
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:10:50 +0000

I wonder if the iterative Worlds and the parallel Worlds can be identified.

I think maybe yes.

They can be next to each other in more than one dimension.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:11:42 +0000

Priests are celibate for reasons which have nothing to do with religion
per se.

.

>> that
>>>>> Book of the Long Sun"? Lemur told Silk that Scylla founded the
>>>>> Chapter
>>>>> as a
>>>>> claim that that "state religion" was not Catholicism, but I don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> why
>>>>> anyone would bother.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:14:30 +0000

I disagree with that, actually.

I recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular causes for
priestly celibacy.  But there's a pretty well-established human impulse to
recognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by "setting them
apart," and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man give up
some form of "normal" human life is a perfectly natural way for that impulse
to be satisfied.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:20:45 +0000

It is biologically based.

If a man does not have orgasms, he becomes capable to perform certain
spiritual acts which he cannot otherwise perform, or not as well.

.

>> > Naturally there are elements in the liturgy and priestly celibacy.
>> But
>> > the

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:21:29 +0000

You could just as well ask "How Catholic is the Catholic Church?" 
Obviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that 
aspect. It's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that 
any reader has said, "Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted 
version of Catholic Church? I hadn't thought of that."

> But the Catholic liturgy did not spring forth fully formed either, and 
> priestly celibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many 
> Buddhist groups, um...Vestal Virgins...have to be others as well).
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com 
> <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On the other hand, it is possible for a "Catholic Church" to have
>     been established in the Commonwealth without a Jesus (complete
>     with crosses) merely in correspondence to the vibrations of our
>     Universe, just as in Green's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms
>     wear black at weddings only because they do it in Lara's dimension.
>
>     In that case, the Chapter is a parody of an echo. But somehow I
>     find that less satisfying.
>
>
>             On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James
>             Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>>  wrote:
>
>                 To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net>
>                 <http://www.urth.net/>
>     To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net>
>     Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net <http://www.urth.net/>
>
>
>

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:21:54 +0000

I'm never sure what planet you're from.

For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some biological
benefit to preserving the seed.  He too was a bit of a nutter.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

> >> been
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:22:29 +0000

> How Catholic is the Chapter, really?

A good question -- and one without clear answers. Certainly the
Chiasmic (?) Writings quote from the Bible, but they quote from other
things too. The order of the liturgy in the Chapter's "sacrifice" is
not utterly unlike that in the sacrifice of the Mass.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:22:53 +0000

Taoism too, right?
> For the record, Nietzsche shared your view that there was some 
> biological benefit to preserving the seed.  He too was a bit of a nutter.
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, <brunians at brunians.org 
> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote:
>
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:23:36 +0000

Well, no, obviously not...

I guess what I'm asking is, do that parallels between the Chapter and the
Catholic Church rise to the level that within the fictive universe there
must be a cause-and-effect relationship between them, or can they be
interpretted as merely have a metafictive causal relationship, i.e., the
author is a Catholic with something to say and playing around with ideas
that are familiar to him?

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:21 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> You could just as well ask "How Catholic is the Catholic Church?" Obviously
> there are parallels with other religions in this or that aspect. It's the
> whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that any reader has said,
> "Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted version of Catholic Church?
> I hadn't thought of that."
>
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:29:08 +0000

Well, the concept of  needing to confess to a priest as a path to 
absolution is pretty Catholic, I'd think.
If Wolfe only wanted to play with familiar motifs, why include the plot 
element that the Chapter was founded as a parody of another specific 
religion?

> Well, no, obviously not...I guess what I'm asking is, do that 
> parallels between the Chapter and the Catholic Church rise to the 
> level that within the fictive universe there must be a 
> cause-and-effect relationship between them, or can they be 
> interpretted as merely have a metafictive causal relationship, i.e., 
> the author is a Catholic with something to say and playing around with 
> ideas that are familiar to him?

>     aspect. It's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine
>     that any reader has said, "Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a
>     twisted version of Catholic Church? I hadn't thought of that."
>
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:30:26 +0000

I am from this planet.

Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?

.

>> > priestly celibacy.  But there's a pretty well-established human
>> impulse
>> to
>> > recognize things associated with the transcendent or divine by
>> "setting
>> > them
>> >> >> merely in correspondence to the vibrations of our Universe, just
>> as
>> >> in
>> find
>> >> >>>>> Doesn't Wolfe undermine the idea that Urth's universe has no
>> Jesus
>> >> in
>> >> >>>>> "The
>> >> >>>>> "parody of the state religion of her own whorl". I suppose it
>> is
>> >> >>>>> possible to

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:32:37 +0000

'I am from this planet' is strictly accurate when you consider my physical
person.

Actually, we are not on a planet.

We are in a World.

Planets are bright lights that move in the sky.

Are you planning upon attending the 2011 WorldCon, John?

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:33:01 +0000

>I am from this planet.

That's what a Visitor _would_ say.

>Besides Nietzche and myself, who else has this idea?

Are you watching out for homeboys?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:33:51 +0000

All religions have similar doctrines regarding the use and retention of
semen.

There are variations in practice.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:39:11 +0000

A lot of people use confession.

Whether or not they got it from the Catholics is problematic.

How close is the form of confession used to the Catholic form?

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:40:51 +0000

Because Wolfe is also playing with the notions of an anti-Christ or
demiurge.  Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of those
notions.  (And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:29 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Well, no, obviously not...I guess what I'm asking is, do that parallels
> between the Chapter and the Catholic Church rise to the level that within
> the fictive universe there must be a cause-and-effect relationship between
> them, or can they be interpretted as merely have a metafictive causal
> relationship, i.e., the author is a Catholic with something to say and
> playing around with ideas that are familiar to him?
>
>
>
>> Obviously there are parallels with other religions in this or that aspect.
>> It's the whole package that is at issue. I can't imagine that any reader has
>> said, "Oh! You think the Chapter seems like a twisted version of Catholic
>> Church? I hadn't thought of that."
>>
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:41:12 +0000

I'm assuming that your mockery, here, is totally friendly and benign.

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:41:13 +0000

Is it in Reno?  I'm unlikely to be in Reno.

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:42:30 +0000

I think we're all friendly here.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:42:38 +0000

Absolutely.
  I hoped that was obvious. Sorry if it wasn't.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:48:25 +0000

A demiourgos is an intermediate worker.

.

>>> aspect.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:49:12 +0000

Yes, it's in Reno.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 12:41 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > biological
>> > benefit to preserving the seed. ?He too was a bit of a nutter.
>> >
>> >> > priestly celibacy. ?But there's a pretty well-established human
>> >> impulse
>> >> to
>> >> > apart," and requiring that the intermediaries between God and man
>> >> > give
>> >> up
>> >> >> > celibacy is not a uniquely Christian practice either (many
>> >> >> > Buddhist
>> >> >> > groups,
>> >> >> >>>> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com>
>> >> >> ?wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:49:35 +0000

Too bad.

That's the only convention that I am assured of attending.

.

>> >> > I recognize that, oh, historically, there were various secular
>> causes
>> >> for
>> >> > some form of "normal" human life is a perfectly natural way for
>> that
>> >> > impulse
>> >> > to be satisfied.
>> >> >
>> >> >> >> Green's dimension (There Are Doors) grooms wear black at
>> weddings
>> >> >> only
>> Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com>
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:50:00 +0000

> demiurge.  Falsity and pretence to authority are pretty key parts of 
> those notions. 

Well, it works for that too.
Like I said, one could argue that the religion on which the Chapter is 
based is not the Catholic Church, but I think that is quite cumbersome 
and distracts from the parallels and themes that (I think) Wolfe is 
intentionally toying with. It's unsatisfying to me.

> (And frankly Pas is a lot more demiurge than anti-Christ.)

I could not agree more than I am agreeing at this very moment. See my 
conversation with David Stockhoff.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:50:11 +0000

I think so too.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:51:06 +0000

Oh no, James.

I had a question about John's use of terms.

It's been well answered.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:52:38 +0000

Antichrist and demiurge are such totally different things, though.

.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:55:36 +0000

It's in the /Journey to the West/.  Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from Taoism I don't know.  I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.

I will be very surprised to hear that Judaism has this idea.

Jerry Friedman has been surprised before.

________________________________
From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:22:53 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was "Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe")

Taoism too, right?

>On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> >wrote:
>
>It
>>is biologically based.
>>

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:57:22 +0000

This was a brain-dump. And I've never go around to editing it, but this was my take linkages between The Long Sun and Revelation:
http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/apocalypse.htm

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:02:24 +0000

No, I know that.

Well, perhaps with interlocutors like you two, I should be very clear in
what I mean.  You are both very smart and know a lot about this stuff and so
may have more refined understandings.

The anti-Christ is a speculative figure in Christian mythology.  To the
degree that there is/will be such a person, he seems to be a false or dark
messiah--a human being or demon in human form--someone who usurps Christ's
expected role in the Second Coming for a period and brings about various
catastrophes before decisive defeat at the hands of Christ.
The demiurge, as I understand it, is a Gnostic interpretation of the God of
the Old Testament.  In Gnostic myth this character is evil or stupid, at
least in comparison to the real God, and responsible for this world being
kind of, well, crappy.  He is falsely believed by many to be the real God
and may even style himself as such.

The two characters are not really similar except that they both contrast
with the true divinity of their respective mythologies and are significant
for their false representation as the true divinity.  In Long Sun, at least,
Pas much more closely mimics the demiurge.

Or to put it another way:

Anti-Christ:  Brother Justin Crowe
Demiurge:  Dalek Emperor.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:02:55 +0000

It's all through QBLH.

Be surprised.

.

> It's in the /Journey to the West/.  Whether Chinese Buddhism got it from
> Taoism I don't know.  I believe it's also in Tantric Buddhism.
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:03:16 +0000

Pretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They are either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a certain status, or for everyone.

Generally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming down from prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or irrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense. 

But it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies all religions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told not to indulge before a big game (or used to be).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:33:51 -0400
From: brunians at brunians.org
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was "Travelling North aka
	miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe")
Message-ID: <237a584c6ba9ce8b8f240876da60c044.squirrel at brunians.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:04:23 +0000

Boxing too.  Apparently now, however, the opposite practice is encouraged.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:03 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> Pretty much, yes, and for both sexes (not just semen, but orgasms). They
> are either controlled, or controlled and released, for individuals of a
> certain status, or for everyone.
>
> Generally, due to its near-universality, I'd take the idea as coming down
> from prehistorical shamanism. Which is not to say that it's wrong or
> irrational---in fact, I'd call it common sense.
> But it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies all
> religions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told not to
> indulge before a big game (or used to be).
>
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:05:03 +0000

Interesting.

I'll try to get to it.

Incredible amount going on since mercury release.

.

> This was a brain-dump. And I've never go around to editing it, but this
> was my take linkages between The Long Sun and Revelation:

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:10:11 +0000

> what I mean.

Possibly so.

>              You are both very smart and know a lot about this stuff and
> so may have more refined understandings.

I don't know how smart I am.

Learned, certainly.

> catastrophes before decisive defeat at the hands of Christ.

My understanding is that antichrist is a pattern. There have been many
antichrists.

Someday, by Christian theory, there will be one big one for the whole World.

All of these cosmic events take place on at least two levels.

The World ends when you die.

The World ends when the World ends.

Both are equally true.

It is an error to emphasize meaning number two, when reading the
Apokalypsis, though it is certainly a part of the religion.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:10:49 +0000

It's from biology.

Do it for a month.

.

> But it's as much to do with magic as with religion, and magic underlies
> all religions in some way. As it does football, where young men are told
> not to indulge before a big game (or used to be).
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:11:39 +0000

*Biologically* it applies to men.

There is other stuff that applies to women.

I've been studying and practicing this stuff for forty years or more.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:12:16 +0000

Any fighter I train follows the old rules.

.

>> all

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:24:49 +0000

> Time and the path to the Last House. I think Severian is privileged in his

The Sand Garden seems less of a challenge, and even if normal joes get 
lost, they're getting lost in some other time or dimension instead of 
one scheduled for demolition in 40 years.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:29:54 +0000

> I think we're all friendly here.

if only some of use were less so

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:30:50 +0000

> Anti-Christ:  Brother Justin Crowe

Or to put it even another way:
A demiurge is a god who presents himself as The God. He's yet he is the 
creator of the world, worshipping him does not lead to 
salvation/enlightenment.
The Antichrist (or in some cases, no doubt, an antichrist) is a MAN who 
presents himself as God.

Obviously, the very creation of Pas as an object of worship would be 
something an antichrist would do.
But Typhon *did* create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his 
creation. In fact, Silk and Auk help to place him back on his throne.

So Typhon/Pas (and I heard Wolfe say last September that they are 
absolutely equivalent) is a demiurge not The Antichrist of the New 
Testament.

J.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:38:16 +0000

However, Pas's role in Short Sun is a little more complicated...

My interpretation is that the Short Sun is (inter alia) about the Outsider's
long game of converting Pas into a reasonable facsimile of Himself.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:38:26 +0000

The Sand Garden obviously opens on the time of Christ.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:40:33 +0000

A demiurge is a ranking celestial who has been assigned by God to perform
a particular task.

He (or she) may or may not behave as you describe.

It depends upon a lot of factors.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:41:38 +0000

A demiurge works between.

The guy who makes the parts that get made into cars is, in a sense, a
demiurge.

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:43:31 +0000

Like Arishem the Judge?

You know who's cooler than Arishem the Judge?

No one.  That's who.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:48:34 +0000

Okay. But I'm talking about the particular famous demiurge of 1st & 2nd 
c. Christian Gnostics. The one who was supposed to have spoken to Moses. 
The one I think Typhon/Pas models.
There are lots of various actions of an antichrist as well, I suppose. 
He might only mislead regarding the Gospel.

>> >  But Typhon*did*  create the Whorl. He is never overthrown from his

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:55:39 +0000

Or Metatron.

.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:55:45 +0000

>enough for one of its instigators to identify it.

Again I think it depends on whether Urth is in our future or in a previous universe.

If it's in our future, then the story is relatively simple.  There was Mary Shelley's dream, which led to /Frankenstein/, which Dr. Talos somehow knows about and recognizes.  He assumes, maybe correctly, that he and Baldanders caused the dream backwards in time.

If it's in a past universe, as Mr. Wolfe has said, then there are three stories.  The one Dr. Talos knows is from Urth's younger days and may have been inspired by a dream.  He and Baldanders replay it, we don't know how faithfully.  Shelley's dream and /Frankenstein/ are an echo of those two stories in our universe.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:56:16 +0000

It is required to refer to him as The Cosmic Metatron.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:57:19 +0000

Jibrail is a demiurge.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:58:36 +0000

Dreams do not take place in linear time.

Dreams do not take place just in this iteration of the World.

.

> From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
>
>>Jeff Wilson wrote:
> If it's in our future, then the story is relatively simple.  There was
> Mary Shelley's dream, which led to /Frankenstein/, which Dr. Talos somehow
> knows about and recognizes.  He assumes, maybe correctly, that he and
> Baldanders caused the dream backwards in time.
>
> If it's in a past universe, as Mr. Wolfe has said, then there are three
> stories.  The one Dr. Talos knows is from Urth's younger days and may have
> been inspired by a dream.  He and Baldanders replay it, we don't know how
> faithfully.  Shelley's dream and /Frankenstein/ are an echo of those two
> stories in our universe.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:59:10 +0000

Maybe for you.

Me and him go back.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:00:22 +0000

Typhon and Pas are not the same person.

Pas began as an iteration of Typhon.

Since then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:01:32 +0000

> The Sand Garden obviously opens on the time of Christ.

What allegedly makes it obvious?

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:13:59 +0000

> Since then they have had seperate histories and are now two persons.

Last September, I sat in a Q&A with Wolfe. The following words (in their 
essence, it's been 9 months now) were stated:

Some Guy: "Typhon managed to sort of be on the Whorl in the form of Pas."

Gene Wolfe: "No! Typhon *was* on the Whorl in the form of Pas."

I want to convey how emphatic Wolfe was when he made this correction.

Ergo, Pas is not the Typhon that Severian met and threw off the 
mountain, but (as Wolfe sees it) both THAT Typhon and Pas are the Typhon 
that created the Whorl.

Just as when Kypris possessed Chenille, she wasn't the Kypris that one 
might meet at that moment in a Sacred Window. But she *was* Kypris.

J.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:15:04 +0000

>They can be next to each other in more than one dimension.
 
I tend to agree with Brunians on this. If the process of creation
and destruction and creation of sequential universes can be imagined 
as taking an ascending spiral shape then the "distance" between one 
universal coil and an adjacent one is small could put Urth and Earth 
or other corresponding entitities in very close proximity, for those
who know how to bridge the gap.
 
In regard to Silk's religion I find the celibacy and confession aspects 
of the augur's job somewhat less interesting than the slaughtering and 
sacrifice of animals in the interest of finding divine prophesy in the 
entrails. In that activity I find, once again, evidence that Wolfe is 
describing how the ills of Earth's ancient pagan societies will persist 
in the absence of a Jesus figure and be somewhat mitigated as the closest 
proximity to Jesus is found on a given planet or society.
 
If Silk is a clone of Typhon, and The Outsider is included, do we not have
an inferior but still potent version of the Holy Trinity in place? 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:29:30 +0000

In the sense that (and in the cults where) archons are demiurges, yeah. 
In some cases, the world was made with the assistance of angels and this 
explains why the World is broken. That's not just Gnosticism. That's 
Kabbala. It goes all the way back to the Jewish philosopher Philo (who 
also provided the technical terminology for the 1st chapter of the 
Gospel of John; so there's your connection between Apostolic Christians 
and Gnostics).

However, typically when one refers to The Demiurge, there is a 
distinction between him and the other archons. Since Pas alone gets 
credit for making the Whorl, it's The Demiurge that is being referenced.

> Jibrail is a demiurge.
>    
>> >  Okay. But I'm talking about the particular famous demiurge of 1st&  2nd

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:29:45 +0000

OK, it's not obvious.

Severian doesn't want to leave the Sand Garden.

Why?

What desert might particularly interest Gene Wolfe?

Perhaps Father Inire had a face to face with Jesus during a certain forty
day period.

It would be like him.

And like a Friend of mine.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:32:06 +0000

Pas was recorded from Typhon's brain.

Since that point their lives and experiences have been very different.

Pas has had many years to think.

Who would not be a different person after that many years?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:33:36 +0000

Killing animals for religious purposes is OK.

What's wrong with killing animals for religious purposes?

The only reason Jews don't do it is because there is no Temple.

.

---

From: Jeff Eoff <jeffeoff at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:33:54 +0000

Was that DragonCon, James?  I'm pretty sure I remember a moment like
that in the Wolfe Q&A.  I don't recall the exact phrasing, but I do
recall we had to shout Typhon a couple of times before he recognized
who we were talking about.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:13 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> Last September, I sat in a Q&A with Wolfe. The following words (in their essence, it's been 9 months now) were stated:
>
> Ergo, Pas is not the Typhon that Severian met and threw off the mountain, but (as Wolfe sees it) both THAT Typhon and Pas are the Typhon that created the Whorl.
>
> Just as when Kypris possessed Chenille, she wasn't the Kypris that one might meet at that moment in a Sacred Window. But she *was* Kypris.
>
> J.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:34:37 +0000

It goes back a lot further than that.

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:38:52 +0000

Yeah, that was DragonCon. Wolfe was really on the ball for all of his 
panels in that convention.

> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:13 PM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com>  wrote:
>

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:44:53 +0000

>
> Pas was recorded from Typhon's brain. Since that point their lives and experiences have been very different. Pas has had many years to think. Who would not be a different person after that many years?
>    
What I'm saying is that Pas is as much Typhon as the Typhons Severian 
encountered in the The Book of the New Sun and the Urth of the New Sun. 
Maybe he's changed a lot from the creation of the Whorl. Maybe he's 
worse after all those centuries of children being sacrificed to him. 
Maybe not, though. The Typhon Severian met did not strike me as a man of 
introspection.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:54:25 +0000

To distinguish him from the Transformers character, yes.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:56:16 -0400
From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Urth & Earth (was "Travelling North aka
	miscellaneous	thoughts on Wolfe")
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTil_v4-9tZjo_0GgbYYTjjMFomD5vh99oEuJLuwN at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:54:54 +0000

Can you give me a citation, please?  One would be enough for my surprise.

Jerry Friedman

>From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

>Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth (was "Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe"))

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:05:23 +0000

I know nothing of this.

I know what Transformers is.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:06:54 +0000

No.

It's in the Talmud also.

And before you ask: no.

No one spoon fed me.

.

>>Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth &
>> Earth (was "Travelling North aka >miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe"))
>
>>It's all through QBLH.
>
>>Be surprised.
>
> .
>
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:21:14 +0000

> Perhaps Father Inire had a face to face with Jesus during a certain forty

If I was in the "Urth preceeds Earth" camp, I might suggest that's why 
Sev feels as if he belonged there, standing where Jesus was meant to be. 
Or perhaps he merely feels it appropriate as various other prophets have 
sought it out, like John the Baptist. In fact, John might be the central 
figure of the Urthly NT, managing to get himself crucified instead of 
beheaded on that iteration.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:39:38 +0000

Why do you assume that something Father Inire built operates only in
linear time?

.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:47:59 +0000

> It's in the Talmud also.

Now that would be a much bigger surprise for me.

> No one spoon fed me.

Whatever.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:02:04 +0000

You expect laziness to be rewarded?

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:24:13 +0000

> Why do you assume that something Father Inire built operates only in

Why do you assume I'm speaking of linear time?

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:30:01 +0000

> The only reason Jews don't do it is because there is no Temple.

The Samaritans don't count as Jews?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Religious_beliefs

-- 
gwern

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:39:50 +0000

Something you said, or something I read, in your previous post made me
think that.

If the text of your previous post was to hand I would pick it out, and
either confront you with it or admit error.

I try not to argue with people, and I am not going to argue with you about
this.

If you have your previous text, and would provide me with it, I will
perform the action I describe in my second sentence above.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:41:40 +0000

Not according to the Jews.

Why does a Jew always answer a question with a question?

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:56:07 +0000

On 6/4/2010 6:30 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:33 PM,<brunians at brunians.org>  wrote:
>>

Israelites rather than Jews

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:09:35 +0000

Not in general.  I'm surprised you apparently inferred I did.  I thought you might answer my request, though.  Maybe I should say I'm not and wasn't criticizing your decision not to answer it.

I'll limit my comments on this subject to one that's on topic.  In my life, I've seen my laziness and other people's rewarded on several occasions.  But I don't recall ever seeing that happen in a Gene Wolfe story.  In fact, I don't recall much laziness (but then there are a lot of books I don't remember very well).  One example that comes to mind is the Rajan's major-domo or whatever he is.

Jerry Friedman

----- Original Message ----
From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 5:02:04 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth (was "Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe"))

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:32:20 +0000

> > And before you ask: no.
 >>[I won't tell you where.] No one spoon fed me.

It's not like you can go to the library and grab the volume called 
"Talmud". You could say what part of the Talmud you read it in and show 
off how smart you are. It would matter if it's from say a rabbi in the 
15th c A.D. or someone from 2nd c BC. I'd believe that just about 
anything someone told me was in the QBLH.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:33:34 +0000

I have resolved to be less of a jerk, and I am sorry I fell short in that.

I have, in the past, had sort of a fucked up attitude, and want every one
of you to know that I however harsh I may sound sometimes, there's nothing
personal behind it.

I hate to say something that sounds like it might be an excuse, but I am
sometimes overresponsive to physical pain. I have, more times than I like
to think about, harshed on someone who had not done anything offensive,
because I was in physical pain.

I have been getting much better at not allowing the higher levels of pain
to grouchify me, but I am not perfect at it and probably never will be.

.
> Not in general.  I'm surprised you apparently inferred I did.  I thought
> you might answer my request, though.  Maybe I should say I'm not and
> wasn't criticizing your decision not to answer it.
>
> I'll limit my comments on this subject to one that's on topic.  In my
> life, I've seen my laziness and other people's rewarded on several
> occasions.  But I don't recall ever seeing that happen in a Gene Wolfe
> story.  In fact, I don't recall much laziness (but then there are a lot of
> books I don't remember very well).  One example that comes to mind is the
> Rajan's major-domo or whatever he is.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>
> Earth (was "Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe"))
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:38:25 +0000

What are we talking about?

Sexual energy as it is used in Judaism?

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:39:56 +0000

On 6/4/2010 9:38 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> are we talking about?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:41:50 +0000

In all of the following questions, the term 'a Jew' refers to a Jewish man
who is conforming to halacha (ie, is orthoprax).

With whom may a Jew have sex?

May a Jew have any kind of sex?

When may a Jew have sex?

May a Jew masturbate?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:42:26 +0000

Please do be so kind as to review my previous post.

.

>   Or as I've heard it called "holding your chain".
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 04:17:20 +0000

> perform the action I describe in my second sentence above.

Rather than reward laziness, I'll hand you a (somewhat) Wolfean riddle:

My writ is three steps' march or four kilometers from my foot, behind 
the baseboards with everyone else's.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 04:29:12 +0000

As I said, I don't object to anything in that reply to me.  I don't think you have anything to apologize for.  I'm sorry to hear you're in pain, though, and I hope it goes away.

As far as I know, what we're talking about is whether Judaism has the idea that men who don't have orgasms attain spiritual capabilities unavailable to other men.

----- Original Message ----

> With whom may a Jew have sex?

His wife.  Most men are obliged to marry by the age of 20, but I'll mention exceptions below.

No.

> When may a Jew have sex?

Any time, as long as he doesn't do it in the street and frighten the horses.  (Apparently it's not allowed in the presence of any creature.)

No.

You left out: How often must a Jew have sex?

As often as his wife asks for her conjugal rights, up to a maximum that depends on his job, from every night for men who do not-too-demanding physical work in the city where they live, to once every six months for a sailor.

There are some interesting glimpses of Maimonides' statements on this subject on limited preview at

http://books.google.com/books?id=JFny1k_bv5cC&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false

It says he thought that a student may delay marriage--not for any stated spiritual reasons, but to avoid distractions.  He also seems to said the rabbi Ben Azzai (who said being childless was as evil as shedding blood) was permitted not to marry at because Ben Azzai was interested only in study, not in sex, though other authorities of the time thought Ben Azzai was sinning.  In general, Maimonides seems to have seen sexuality as a distraction, though a required one.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 04:54:44 +0000

I'm not normally good at riddles, and I'm definitely not playing this
tonight.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 05:00:20 +0000

So basically, this guy spends half his time not having sex and not
masturbating.

He goes for one good week without having sex every month.

He's still wrapping phylacteries every day isn't he?

Still saying the normal prayers?

.

> As I said, I don't object to anything in that reply to me.  I don't think
> you have anything to apologize for.  I'm sorry to hear you're in pain,
> though, and I hope it goes away.
>
> As far as I know, what we're talking about is whether Judaism has the idea
> that men who don't have orgasms attain spiritual capabilities unavailable
> to other men.
>
>
>
> Any time, as long as he doesn't do it in the street and frighten the
> horses.  (Apparently it's not allowed in the presence of any creature.)
>
>> May a Jew masturbate?
>
> No.
>
> As often as his wife asks for her conjugal rights, up to a maximum that
> depends on his job, from every night for men who do not-too-demanding
> physical work in the city where they live, to once every six months for a
> sailor.
>
> It says he thought that a student may delay marriage--not for any stated
> spiritual reasons, but to avoid distractions.  He also seems to said the
> rabbi Ben Azzai (who said being childless was as evil as shedding blood)
> was permitted not to marry at because Ben Azzai was interested only in
> study, not in sex, though other authorities of the time thought Ben Azzai
> was sinning.  In general, Maimonides seems to have seen sexuality as a
> distraction, though a required one.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:21:09 +0000

>> the baseboards with everyone else's.

If you could peek into one of the other universes for the answer, that 
would still count.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:56:11 +0000

I'm afraid I don't follow.  Who is "this guy"?  What do you mean by "spends half his time not having sex and not masturbating"?  Half his life?  And if we're talking about a real person such as Ben Azzai, I believe people who are forbidden by their religion to have sex sometimes do anyway, and even more so for masturbation, so I couldn't even guess whether someone abstained from orgasms.

The sentence with "week" and "month" makes no sense to me.

Whoever it is, if he's an Orthodox Jew, he probably does say the normal prayers and put on phylacteries ("lay tefillin", as many American Jews say) every day.

Jerry Friedman

----- Original Message ----
From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 11:00:20 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Building up yang through 10 lifetimes (was Re: Urth & Earth (was "Travelling North aka miscellaneous thoughts on Wolfe"))

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 13:02:04 +0000

It was a mistake for me to even bring this up.

I am sorry I did it.

I'm done now.

.

> I'm afraid I don't follow.  Who is "this guy"?  What do you mean by
> "spends half his time not having sex and not masturbating"?  Half his
> life?  And if we're talking about a real person such as Ben Azzai, I
> believe people who are forbidden by their religion to have sex sometimes
> do anyway, and even more so for masturbation, so I couldn't even guess
> whether someone abstained from orgasms.
>
> Whoever it is, if he's an Orthodox Jew, he probably does say the normal
> prayers and put on phylacteries ("lay tefillin", as many American Jews
> say) every day.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:59:35 +0000

On 06/05/2010 07:56 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> I'm afraid I don't follow.  Who is "this guy"?  What do you mean by "spends half his time not having sex and not masturbating"?  Half his life?
>    

Hell, even I do this.  I mean, at least now that I'm not working from home.

Adam

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 19:05:14 +0000

>All religions have similar doctrines regarding the use and retention of
 
And let's not forget the Sweet Science as this exchange in the gym demonstrates

Mickey: " Listen, kid, you! You lay off that pet shop dame. Women weaken legs." 
 
Rocky: "Yeah, but I really like this girl, ya know?" 
 
Mickey: "Then let her train ya!!" 

Rocky:  "... Okay, okay.. no more foolin' around......Women weaken legs" 		 	   		  
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---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 05:01:53 +0000

> the baseboards with everyone else's.

I think that's enough of a head start for Brunians; the rest of you are 
invited to "play" and solve the riddle.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 05:12:54 +0000

Shadow.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 05:13:58 +0000

I'll reserve my turn.

.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:13:16 +0000

> into a creation of the next universe which is called Yesod.

Severian's universe (which is also ours IMO) is named Yesod.

That of the Hierodules is called Briah.

- Gerry Quinn.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:38:30 +0000

We live in Assiah.

.

> From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 18:50:18 +0000

>> invited to "play" and solve the riddle.

It's not in _Shadow_, though some items are common to both.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:02:30 +0000

> That of the Hierodules is called Briah.

I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening of 
URTH's Chapter XV Yesod:

"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the 
sky of Yesod, ..."

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:03:39 +0000

The answer to the riddle is 'your shadow'.

And, as I say, I am reserving my turn.

You may regret that you started this game.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:30:42 +0000

> The answer to the riddle is 'your shadow'.

Either way that's a fair guess at a partial solution, though I 
considered a book is a more suitable place to find writing than a 
silhouette.

> And, as I say, I am reserving my turn.

It's not meant to be a turnwise game as far a guessing goes, just like 
people don't have to take turns reading Wolfe's stories and figuring out 
what they mean. The person gets their turn to make a riddle by solving 
the previous one. I suppose we might decide that there needs to be some 
stopping conditions for unsolved riddles.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:34:30 +0000

The riddle game is an ancient game.

It is a game of turns and forfeits.

You did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 00:49:09 +0000

> You did not name your forfeit: would you care to name it now?

I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally 
Wolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is 
the hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having 
made a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues.    I 
much prefer the "speak friend and enter" sort of contest than the "what 
have I got in my pocket" kind.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 00:59:00 +0000

If that is the game you like, that is the game you should play.

You did not.

These games are not random.

.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 00:59:44 +0000

On Jun 6, 2010, at 7:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> I specified a somewhat Wolfean riddle - the stakes and rules are equally Wolfean, i.e. a contest of riddle crafting where the solver's prize is the hidden information and the maker's prize is recognition for having made a riddle that is solvable through some combination of virtues.    I much prefer the "speak friend and enter" sort of contest than the "what have I got in my pocket" kind.

TEETH! Answer's always "teeth."

Well, sometimes it's "swordfish."

Adam
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:01:12 +0000

Ooo, that makes me cringe just thinking about it.

.

> Adam_______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:01:34 +0000

The teeth.

The swordfish not so much.

.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:02:32 +0000

> The swordfish not so much.

That's not a swordfish in your pocket?

Then I guess you ARE happy to see me.

Adam
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:28:47 +0000

Your turn in the barrel, darlin'...

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:43:14 +0000

> These games are not random.

If you can point out where I overtly agreed to play some other kind of 
riddle game, I'll apologize handsomely.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:53:03 +0000

You started the game.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 03:22:49 +0000

> You started the game.

Ergo you agreed to play my game. Thank you!

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 06:26:52 +0000

It is not your game.

It has in fact begun.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 11:51:14 +0000

> It has in fact begun.

Then you can consider my forfeit is for you to leave off your notion of 
the game and continue under mine, as I am not terribly keen for a 
stranger who packs both heat and a disreagrd for social norms to 
unilaterally decide I owe him something.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 11:53:10 +0000

The point where the game may end has passed.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 11:54:26 +0000

The point where you may have introduced a forfeit is long passed.

It is not my fault that you did not believe the stories you were told when
you were a small child.

.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 12:39:41 +0000

You're right - I got them back to front.

But I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the same 
univese at different times.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 12:55:07 +0000

In QBLH they are nested Worlds.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:06:31 +0000

> univese at different times.

I don't think anyone's asserted they are.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:14:13 +0000

I guess I thought that Yesod was a megauniverse with Briah being 
equivalent to a planet within it? Is that wrong?

On 6/7/2010 7:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> But I still think Yesod and Briah are different universes, not the 
> same univese at different times.
>
> - Gerry Quinn
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wilson" <jwilson at io.com>
>> I'm afraid you've got that reversed from the texts. From the opening 
>> of URTH's Chapter XV Yesod:
>>
>> "...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in 
>> the sky of Yesod, ..."
>>
>> --

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:31:15 +0000

> equivalent to a planet within it? Is that wrong?

Briah is a universe very much like our own, with lots of galaxies. All 
we see of Yesod is a huge planet-like mechanism that supposedly has an 
island or group of islands for each inhabited galaxy or group of 
galaxies in Briah. This makes the Yesod universe still pretty small 
compared to Briah, or it could be that The Ship is just very accurate in 
where it emerges into the higher dimension.

The Yesodis show they are able to open peep-holes into Briah, and in 
fact that is how Severian returns to our universe by leaping through one 
to join The Ship "after" it has left without him. I say "after" with the 
quotes becuase some of the people on The Ship are younger than he 
encountered them before, and it famously arrives a thousand years before 
he first boarded it.

This peep-hole between the dimensions is described as moonlike in 
appearance, just as the dimensional apperature where The Ship entered 
Yesod was. This was the basis for my pet theory that the Whorl could 
have been secretly diverted by the Yesodis to just about anywhere in 
Briah's space or time, allowing Blue and Green to be Urth and Lune 
PLANET OF THE APES-style, but that's largely fallen by the wayside now.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:40:38 +0000

>"...I now saw our universe, a circle no larger than an ebon moon in the 

I'm not clear on how this passage contradicts the idea of universal 
collapse of Briah leading to a Big Bang creation of Yesod. In describing
travel from one universe to another I can see how Wolfe might envision it
this way. Some explanation please? 		 	   		  
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---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:13:18 +0000

> this way. Some explanation please? 		 	   		

Yesod's too small in scope; just one enormous machine-planet.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:55:40 +0000

I don't think so.   To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws of 
physics in Briah by travelling faster than light (though the mechanism 
proposed, tacking across the light from the stars, is cute but unfeasible).

- Gerry Quinn

From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>

>I guess I thought that Yesod was a megauniverse with Briah being equivalent 
>to a planet within it? Is that wrong?
>

---

From: Eugene Zaretskiy <eugene.zar at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:13:35 +0000

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote:
>
> I don't think so. — To travel to Yesod it is necessary to break the laws of

I don't mean to pick on you, but I've always thought these types of
statements were quite presumptive. Yours is a common argument to make
against many ideas presented in science fiction. Educated folk mere
decades ago explained in simple science why some of the technologies
available today would be impossible to make. Yet the ingenuity of the
modern inventor constantly foils such assumptions. I'm sure you could
point out the fallacy in their thinking, but the fact remains that
countless millennia have passed between now and the time these ships
were "invented" (assuming someone, at some point, had to come up with
the technology). Are you absolutely certain that it simply isn't
possible that Severian's one-line explanation of how the ship sails is
accurate?

Not that it really matters. I just think it's rather groundless to
predict that a proposed method of travel used millennia from now is
unfeasible when we can't even predict what the weather tomorrow will
be.

-- 
Eugene Z
http://blog.eugenez.net

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:38:28 +0000

I know that even 'hard' SF writers generally get a free pass when it comes 
to FTL travel.  But the method described in 'Urth of the New Sun' has two 
problems with it.

First, there is the usual issue of travelling faster than light.  Special 
relativity is well established, and while it could be replaced by a new 
'aether' theory, any such theory would have the same issue with a maximum 
speed.  We regularly push stuff to >99% of light speed and we know what 
happens.

Secondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works for 
sailboats.  But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't hold up 
because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal to its 
direction of travel, as moving air does.

It's not a big issue, and in fact I mentioned it because I think it's a very 
nice idea.  But we can be pretty certain that no future technology will use 
it.

- Gerry Quinn

From: "Eugene Zaretskiy" <eugene.zar at gmail.com>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:47:06 +0000

I find it very difficult to take any purported Irishman who claims not to
believe in fairies seriously.

Especially when he is spurting this fanboy stuff all over the Gene Wolfe
list.

I believe that Wolfe describes the Book of the New Sun as science fantasy.

.

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:55:21 +0000

>direction of travel, as moving air does.

The sails in question aren't your common-or-garden solar sails, but
the same monster-summoning, space-warping mirrors found in the
Autarch's book and Father Inire's workshop. It's not a pressure-driven
means of transport.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:38:51 +0000

On 6/9/2010 10:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> I know that even 'hard' SF writers generally get a free pass when it
> comes to FTL travel. But the method described in 'Urth of the New Sun'
> has two problems with it.
>
> 'aether' theory, any such theory would have the same issue with a
> maximum speed. We regularly push stuff to >99% of light speed and we
> know what happens.
>
> Secondly, the 'tacking' method of travelling faster than the wind works
> for sailboats. But the analogy between wind and light radiation doesn't
> hold up because light does not exert pressure in directions orthogonal
> to its direction of travel, as moving air does.

That's not entirely correct; if the light is reflected at an angle, it 
imparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For 
example if light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is 
reflected to the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing 
really happens, and produces a measureable effect on natural and 
artificial satellites _over_a_period_of_years_.

The trick then is not how The Ship is propelled, but rather how The 
Ship's inertia is nullified to allow this 
more-feeble-than-a-thousand-year-old-butterfly push to make it 
accelerate so quickly.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:50:07 +0000

> imparts momentum at an angle normal to the reflecting surface. For example 
> if light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is reflected 
> to the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing really happens, 
> and produces a measureable effect on natural and artificial satellites 
> _over_a_period_of_years_.

Yes, but this is different from the 'airfoil' mechanism that can propel a 
boat faster than the wind, and which is not available in the case of light. 
That said, I think I was wrong to place so much store in this, as light also 
has comensating advantages - unlike air, it will not necessarily resist 
objects that are already in motion relative to it

There still is the issue of accelerating *past* the speed of light, however, 
which applies to all similar FTL mechanisms.

- Gerry Quinn
.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:18:25 +0000

All you need are two streams, in one or two media, which flow at different
speeds.

The lengthy masts might be to catch different currents in the flow.

I have designed a wind powered airship: it is the same principle.

.

>> example

---

From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:45:47 +0000

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote:

>> if light traveling due north strikes a mirror facing SW and is reflected to
>> the west, the mirror is pushed NE. This sort of thing really happens, and
>> produces a measureable effect on natural and artificial satellites
> There still is the issue of accelerating *past* the speed of light,
> however, which applies to all similar FTL mechanisms.
>
> - Gerry Quinn
> .
>
>
> It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light would allow
> you to go backward in time.   If the mathematics of the relativity equations
> correctly describes reality, then a velocity greater than the speed of light
> puts you not into negative time but into imaginary time.
>

Maybe SF should just rely on old-fashioned hyperspace.

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: Paul Zinn-Justin <pzinn at lpthe.jussieu.fr>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:54:58 +0000

That is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is a 
mathematical artefact.
The real point is, if you combine faster than light travel and Lorentz 
invariance of the laws of physics (the invariance principle that is the 
basis of Einstein's theory of special relativity), then you can indeed 
have trajectories which connect two arbitrary points of spacetime i.e. 
in a given reference frame it will look like you can move freely forward 
or backwards in time (you're not going ``straight'' into the past -- 
you're making little loops, like travelling to a distant star faster 
than light and then coming back the same way).

On 06/10/2010 03:45 PM, Jack Smith wrote:
>
>
>     It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light
>     would allow you to go backward in time.   If the mathematics of
>     the relativity equations correctly describes reality, then a
>     velocity greater than the speed of light puts you not into
>     negative time but into imaginary time.
>
>

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:07:18 +0000

Cool.
]
.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:07:39 +0000

Cool.

.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:45:21 +0000

That said, I'd prefer to travel in imaginary time.

On 6/10/2010 8:54 AM, Paul Zinn-Justin wrote:
> That is incorrect. Some quantities might become imaginary but that is 
> a mathematical artefact.
>
>> It is also not clear that moving faster than the speed of light would 
>> allow you to go backward in time.   If the mathematics of the 
>> relativity equations correctly describes reality, then a velocity 
>> greater than the speed of light puts you not into negative time but 
>> into imaginary time.
>>
>>
>
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:46:20 +0000

On 6/10/2010 7:50 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> Yes, but this is different from the 'airfoil' mechanism that can propel
> a boat faster than the wind, and which is not available in the case of
> light. That said, I think I was wrong to place so much store in this, as
> light also has comensating advantages - unlike air, it will not
> necessarily resist objects that are already in motion relative to it

That's true, but it is still tacking in the sense of rigging the sails 
at similar angles to get transverse propulsion - and since the speakers 
are originally  educated as wet sailors rather than physicists, 
"tacking" is the most accurate word they have for it. And The Ship does 
end up going faster than light, just like a surface vessel tacking 
against the wind can make better than windspeed, so again "tacking" is 
the metaphorically most correct word a simple sailor can use.

> however, which applies to all similar FTL mechanisms.

The Ship going FTL can be attributed to it traveling into that unseen 
direction that Juturna points into and the direction F B & O's saucer 
takes when it leaves Baldanders' castle, the conceit being that 
relativity doesn't cover that fifth dimension with the same constraints 
as our familiar four.

There is a mathematical comcept analagous to this called surreal 
numbers, invented about 1976 and covered in some popular science 
literature, and the notation employed used a metaphor similar to Zeno's 
paradox, of traveling an infinite distance in one direction, then one 
step more, and mapping this additional distance to the side, and 
repeating that ad infinitum, producing not just a new dimension but all 
kinds of mathematical structures with suggestive names like transfinite 
ordered fields that could easily be an influence on the imagery of Yesod.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 00:03:45 +0000

On Jun 10, 2010, at 6:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> 
> There is a mathematical comcept analagous to this called surreal numbers, invented about 1976 and covered in some popular science literature, and the notation employed used a metaphor similar to Zeno's paradox, of traveling an infinite distance in one direction, then one step more, and mapping this additional distance to the side, and repeating that ad infinitum, producing not just a new dimension but all kinds of mathematical structures with suggestive names like transfinite ordered fields that could easily be an influence on the imagery of Yesod.

Invented earlier than that....in 1970 or so (at least, those are the first lectures) by John Horton Conway, whom you may know from the mathematical recreation "The Game Of Life".  Notable because its moniker and first publication came from Don Knuth, who of course is most famous for his Mad Magazine article, "The Potrzebie System of Weights and Measures" (his subsequent career at Stanford University has also been of some minor interest), and is unusual--perhaps unique--for the first public appearance of a mathematical theory in that it is presented in the form of a love story.  That novella (1974) is entitled _Surreal Numbers_ and is still in print, should you wish to order a copy.  The theory is worked out in a more traditional form in Conway's _On Numbers and Games_, published in 1976 and with a second edition in 2001.

It is the most beautiful example of bootstrapping something from very nearly nothing that I know. 

The Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number is a pretty good introduction, but I can't recommend _ONAG_ too highly.  And the "On Games" part?  Well, not to give it away, but a game is a number with certain of the definitory conditions relaxed; it turns out that both numbers and games-which-are-not-numbers (numbers are all games, but not vice-versa) can be used as descriptions of positions in a certain class of what-we-commonly-call-games, namely those in which there are two players, both have perfect knowledge of the game state, and there is no random element.  You can prove all sorts of interesting things with this theory.

Also: regarding Brunians' airship design, I demand that he grow long white whiskers, as it is now impossible for me to visualize him as anything other than the White Knight.  I wonder whether he balances very badly when sliding down pokers.

Adam
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 00:04:48 +0000

> than light and then coming back the same way).

Yes, the limerick is not just cute but technically accurate:

There was a young lady named Bright
Whose speed was much faster than light;
She set out one day,
In a relative way
And returned on the previous night.

- Inflicted by Arthur Henry Reginald Buller, in the December 19, 1923 
issue of Punch