{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5622", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5622, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-06-04T12:08:09+00:00", "last": "2010-06-04T23:35:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4C08ECA9.9080007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-04T12:08:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, you should post this kind of stuff more often. \n\nWould it be safe to say that the apparent theme or motif of incest committed by Severian derives directly from the twinned sexes comprising the gnostic God? \n\nIf so, necessarily, Valeria must be Severian's sister, as has been suggested. \n\nIf Severian is always mating with his female counterparts/family members through TBotNS, is this a process of the Keymaster always trying to fit his Key into the right Gatekeeper (iirc) so that a new universe may be born?\n\n(See John Crowley, Endless Things etc., for an account of an apparently failed attempt to do this, or maybe not failed at all...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:47:49 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) travelling north\nMessage-ID: <4C088575.5010807 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic\nones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act,\nand achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does.\nNot as the Johanine Christ acts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nInteresting. Can you elaborate on the distinction?\n(I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.)\n\nWell, for starters, the Gnostic Christ does not save anyone \nindividually. He saves mankind as a whole through the example of his \nenlightenment. This is closer to the salvation of Silk and Severian than \nJesus. Additionally \"the Christ\" is merely the male half of God \n(although even that term has a somewhat different meaning). With the \nfemale half they form the syzygy of their particular Aeon. This is \nSeverian and Thecla. Silk and Hyacinth are a retelling of the gnostic \nstory of Simon Magus and Helena. Helena was the Ennoia who had fallen \ninto the lower aeons and become trapped in matter. \"The Father\", \nmanifesting himself as Simon Magus, \"The Son\", finds her in a brothel \nsuffering abuse, and rescues her. There's also Ophis, the serpent, mixed \nup in the story. It would difficult, but take fewer words, to detail the \nways that New Sun and Long Son are inconsistant with what we know of the \nteachings of guys like Tatian and Valentinus or the group founded on \ntheir teachings known as the Severians.\n\nJ\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4bb8a39c5e81b739b570be0fd50d57ea.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T12:10:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15", "in_reply_to": "<4C08ECA9.9080007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James, you should post this kind of stuff more often.\n\nWould it be safe to say that the apparent theme or motif of incest\ncommitted by Severian derives directly from the twinned sexes comprising\nthe gnostic God?\n\nIf so, necessarily, Valeria must be Severian's sister, as has been\nsuggested.\n\nIf Severian is always mating with his female counterparts/family members\nthrough TBotNS, is this a process of the Keymaster always trying to fit\nhis Key into the right Gatekeeper (iirc) so that a new universe may be\nborn?\n\n(See John Crowley, Endless Things etc., for an account of an apparently\nfailed attempt to do this, or maybe not failed at all...)\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:47:49 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) travelling north\nMessage-ID: <4C088575.5010807 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\n >>The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic\n >>ones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act,\n >>and achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does.\n >>Not as the Johanine Christ acts.\n\n >David Stockhoff wrote:\n >Interesting. Can you elaborate on the distinction?\n >(I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.)\n\nWell, for starters, the Gnostic Christ does not save anyone\nindividually. He saves mankind as a whole through the example of his\nenlightenment. This is closer to the salvation of Silk and Severian than\nJesus. Additionally \"the Christ\" is merely the male half of God\n(although even that term has a somewhat different meaning). With the\nfemale half they form the syzygy of their particular Aeon. This is\nSeverian and Thecla. Silk and Hyacinth are a retelling of the gnostic\nstory of Simon Magus and Helena. Helena was the Ennoia who had fallen\ninto the lower aeons and become trapped in matter. \"The Father\",\nmanifesting himself as Simon Magus, \"The Son\", finds her in a brothel\nsuffering abuse, and rescues her. There's also Ophis, the serpent, mixed\nup in the story. It would difficult, but take fewer words, to detail the\nways that New Sun and Long Son are inconsistant with what we know of the\nteachings of guys like Tatian and Valentinus or the group founded on\ntheir teachings known as the Severians.\n\nJ\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0932EF.3000205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T17:07:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism & Wolfe (was \"traveling north\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C08ECA9.9080007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic\nones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act,\nand achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does.\nNot as the Johanine Christ actsJames, you should post this kind of \nstuff more often." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would it be safe to say that the apparent theme or motif of incest \ncommitted\nby Severian derives directly from the twinned sexes comprising the \ngnostic God?\nIf so, necessarily, Valeria must be Severian's sister, as has been \nsuggested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's nothing inconsistent about incest between the important \ncharacters of Gnosticism (the influence of Egyptian philosphy and myth \nensures that). Norea was said in some writings to be the wife and sister \nof Seth, while simultaneously half of a syzygy. That said, who Norea was \ndepends on who you are reading. For others, she is the wife of Noah (a \nhostile relationship there --like Sev and Valeria-- since she burned \ndown his ark three times). The problem with saying \"Valeria must be \nSeverian's sister\" is that Wolfe so happily plays with the definitions \nof terms. In The Book of the Short Sun, the Rajan calls Jahlee (the \ninhuma bearing, I believe, Chenille's soul) his daughter and his sister. \nSo you're not just dealing with the twisted and unintuitive world of \nGnosticism, but also the twisted worlds of Wolfe where little is as it \nseems.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C098825.5090001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:11:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism & Wolfe (was \"traveling north\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C0932EF.3000205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 12:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThere's nothing inconsistent about incest between the important\ncharacters of Gnosticism (the influence of Egyptian philosphy and myth\nensures that). Norea was said in some writings to be the wife and sister\nof Seth, while simultaneously half of a syzygy. That said, who Norea was\ndepends on who you are reading. For others, she is the wife of Noah (a\nhostile relationship there --like Sev and Valeria-- since she burned\ndown his ark three times). The problem with saying \"Valeria must be\nSeverian's sister\" is that Wolfe so happily plays with the definitions\nof terms. In The Book of the Short Sun, the Rajan calls Jahlee (the\ninhuma bearing, I believe, Chenille's soul) his daughter and his sister.\nSo you're not just dealing with the twisted and unintuitive world of\nGnosticism, but also the twisted worlds of Wolfe where little is as it\nseems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not just Wolfe and Gnosticism; the regular OT has Abraham, his \n\"sister\" Sarah, and the Pharaoah, plus some \"my wife, my sister\" action \nin the Song of Songs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<708160e876317e7a6e61ffcbf89e74cf.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-04T23:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism & Wolfe (was \"traveling north\")", "in_reply_to": "<4C098825.5090001@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm waiting for someone to tell me that incest has been traced back to the\nearly Roman empire.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/4/2010 12:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's nothing inconsistent about incest between the important\ncharacters of Gnosticism (the influence of Egyptian philosphy and myth\nensures that). Norea was said in some writings to be the wife and sister\nof Seth, while simultaneously half of a syzygy. That said, who Norea was\ndepends on who you are reading. For others, she is the wife of Noah (a\nhostile relationship there --like Sev and Valeria-- since she burned\ndown his ark three times). The problem with saying \"Valeria must be\nSeverian's sister\" is that Wolfe so happily plays with the definitions\nof terms. In The Book of the Short Sun, the Rajan calls Jahlee (the\ninhuma bearing, I believe, Chenille's soul) his daughter and his sister.\nSo you're not just dealing with the twisted and unintuitive world of\nGnosticism, but also the twisted worlds of Wolfe where little is as it\nseems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not just Wolfe and Gnosticism; the regular OT has Abraham, his\n\"sister\" Sarah, and the Pharaoah, plus some \"my wife, my sister\" action\nin the Song of Songs.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }