# Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15 *The Urth list — 5 messages, 4 voices, 04 Jun 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### David Stockhoff *04 Jun 2010, 12:08* James, you should post this kind of stuff more often. Would it be safe to say that the apparent theme or motif of incest committed by Severian derives directly from the twinned sexes comprising the gnostic God? If so, necessarily, Valeria must be Severian's sister, as has been suggested. If Severian is always mating with his female counterparts/family members through TBotNS, is this a process of the Keymaster always trying to fit his Key into the right Gatekeeper (iirc) so that a new universe may be born? (See John Crowley, Endless Things etc., for an account of an apparently failed attempt to do this, or maybe not failed at all...) > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:47:49 -0500 > From: James Wynn > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) travelling north > Message-ID: <4C088575.5010807 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic >> ones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act, >> and achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does. >> Not as the Johanine Christ acts. > David Stockhoff wrote: > Interesting. Can you elaborate on the distinction? > (I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.) > > Well, for starters, the Gnostic Christ does not save anyone > individually. He saves mankind as a whole through the example of his > enlightenment. This is closer to the salvation of Silk and Severian than > Jesus. Additionally "the Christ" is merely the male half of God > (although even that term has a somewhat different meaning). With the > female half they form the syzygy of their particular Aeon. This is > Severian and Thecla. Silk and Hyacinth are a retelling of the gnostic > story of Simon Magus and Helena. Helena was the Ennoia who had fallen > into the lower aeons and become trapped in matter. "The Father", > manifesting himself as Simon Magus, "The Son", finds her in a brothel > suffering abuse, and rescues her. There's also Ophis, the serpent, mixed > up in the story. It would difficult, but take fewer words, to detail the > ways that New Sun and Long Son are inconsistant with what we know of the > teachings of guys like Tatian and Valentinus or the group founded on > their teachings known as the Severians. > > J > > > ------------------------------ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *04 Jun 2010, 12:10 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Yeah! . > James, you should post this kind of stuff more often. > > Would it be safe to say that the apparent theme or motif of incest > committed by Severian derives directly from the twinned sexes comprising > the gnostic God? > > If so, necessarily, Valeria must be Severian's sister, as has been > suggested. > > If Severian is always mating with his female counterparts/family members > through TBotNS, is this a process of the Keymaster always trying to fit > his Key into the right Gatekeeper (iirc) so that a new universe may be > born? > > (See John Crowley, Endless Things etc., for an account of an apparently > failed attempt to do this, or maybe not failed at all...) > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:47:49 -0500 > From: James Wynn > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) travelling north > Message-ID: <4C088575.5010807 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >>The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic > >>ones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act, > >>and achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does. > >>Not as the Johanine Christ acts. > > >David Stockhoff wrote: > >Interesting. Can you elaborate on the distinction? > >(I'm not familiar with the Gnostic Christ's achievements.) > > Well, for starters, the Gnostic Christ does not save anyone > individually. He saves mankind as a whole through the example of his > enlightenment. This is closer to the salvation of Silk and Severian than > Jesus. Additionally "the Christ" is merely the male half of God > (although even that term has a somewhat different meaning). With the > female half they form the syzygy of their particular Aeon. This is > Severian and Thecla. Silk and Hyacinth are a retelling of the gnostic > story of Simon Magus and Helena. Helena was the Ennoia who had fallen > into the lower aeons and become trapped in matter. "The Father", > manifesting himself as Simon Magus, "The Son", finds her in a brothel > suffering abuse, and rescues her. There's also Ophis, the serpent, mixed > up in the story. It would difficult, but take fewer words, to detail the > ways that New Sun and Long Son are inconsistant with what we know of the > teachings of guys like Tatian and Valentinus or the group founded on > their teachings known as the Severians. > > J > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ --- ### James Wynn *04 Jun 2010, 17:07 · in reply to David Stockhoff* >> The figurative worlds of Severian and Silk are Gnostic >> ones not Judeo-Apostolic ones. Those protagonists act, >> and achieve, within their worlds as the Gnostic Christ does. >> Not as the Johanine Christ actsJames, you should post this kind of >> stuff more often. > Would it be safe to say that the apparent theme or motif of incest > committed > by Severian derives directly from the twinned sexes comprising the > gnostic God? > If so, necessarily, Valeria must be Severian's sister, as has been > suggested. There's nothing inconsistent about incest between the important characters of Gnosticism (the influence of Egyptian philosphy and myth ensures that). Norea was said in some writings to be the wife and sister of Seth, while simultaneously half of a syzygy. That said, who Norea was depends on who you are reading. For others, she is the wife of Noah (a hostile relationship there --like Sev and Valeria-- since she burned down his ark three times). The problem with saying "Valeria must be Severian's sister" is that Wolfe so happily plays with the definitions of terms. In The Book of the Short Sun, the Rajan calls Jahlee (the inhuma bearing, I believe, Chenille's soul) his daughter and his sister. So you're not just dealing with the twisted and unintuitive world of Gnosticism, but also the twisted worlds of Wolfe where little is as it seems. J. --- ### Jeff Wilson *04 Jun 2010, 23:11 · in reply to James Wynn* > On 6/4/2010 12:07 PM, James Wynn wrote: > There's nothing inconsistent about incest between the important > characters of Gnosticism (the influence of Egyptian philosphy and myth > ensures that). Norea was said in some writings to be the wife and sister > of Seth, while simultaneously half of a syzygy. That said, who Norea was > depends on who you are reading. For others, she is the wife of Noah (a > hostile relationship there --like Sev and Valeria-- since she burned > down his ark three times). The problem with saying "Valeria must be > Severian's sister" is that Wolfe so happily plays with the definitions > of terms. In The Book of the Short Sun, the Rajan calls Jahlee (the > inhuma bearing, I believe, Chenille's soul) his daughter and his sister. > So you're not just dealing with the twisted and unintuitive world of > Gnosticism, but also the twisted worlds of Wolfe where little is as it > seems. It's not just Wolfe and Gnosticism; the regular OT has Abraham, his "sister" Sarah, and the Pharaoah, plus some "my wife, my sister" action in the Song of Songs. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### brunians at brunians.org *04 Jun 2010, 23:35 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* I'm waiting for someone to tell me that incest has been traced back to the early Roman empire. . > On 6/4/2010 12:07 PM, James Wynn wrote: >> There's nothing inconsistent about incest between the important >> characters of Gnosticism (the influence of Egyptian philosphy and myth >> ensures that). Norea was said in some writings to be the wife and sister >> of Seth, while simultaneously half of a syzygy. That said, who Norea was >> depends on who you are reading. For others, she is the wife of Noah (a >> hostile relationship there --like Sev and Valeria-- since she burned >> down his ark three times). The problem with saying "Valeria must be >> Severian's sister" is that Wolfe so happily plays with the definitions >> of terms. In The Book of the Short Sun, the Rajan calls Jahlee (the >> inhuma bearing, I believe, Chenille's soul) his daughter and his sister. >> So you're not just dealing with the twisted and unintuitive world of >> Gnosticism, but also the twisted worlds of Wolfe where little is as it >> seems. > It's not just Wolfe and Gnosticism; the regular OT has Abraham, his > "sister" Sarah, and the Pharaoah, plus some "my wife, my sister" action > in the Song of Songs. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > IEEE Student Chapter Blog at > < http://ieeetamut.org > > _______________________________________________ ---