{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5628", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5628, "subject": "crackdown 2.0", "messages": 12, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-06-07T20:43:50+00:00", "last": "2010-06-12T03:05:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T20:43:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The urth list is getting way too busy these days, so I'm gonna lay\ndown the law again. Please send any comments or complaints directly\nto me rather than to the list.\n\n1. Please stick to the core mission of the list, which is discussion\nthat *directly* relates to Gene Wolfe's fiction (with occasional\ndiversions for notable events in the sci-fi and literary worlds).\nReligion in general and atheism in general are not suitable topics.\n\n2. I'm setting an informal goal of no more than approximately five\nmessages per person per day. It's ok to go over five now and then,\nbut don't feel like you need to use all five every day, either. I'm\nnot going to bother counting individual's messages, but I'm hoping\nthat we'll get slower-paced and more focused discussions. If this\ndoesn't slow the list down enough, I'll make it a technical\nrestriction, which will be much more annoying for everyone. We'll see\nhow it goes.\n\n- Ranjit" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-07T21:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote:\nThe urth list is getting way too busy these days, so I'm gonna lay\ndown the law again. ?Please send any comments or complaints directly\nto me rather than to the list.\n\n1. Please stick to the core mission of the list, which is discussion\nthat *directly* relates to Gene Wolfe's fiction (with occasional\ndiversions for notable events in the sci-fi and literary worlds).\nReligion in general and atheism in general are not suitable topics.\n\n2. I'm setting an informal goal of no more than approximately five\nmessages per person per day. — It's ok to go over five now and then,\nbut don't feel like you need to use all five every day, either. ?I'm\nnot going to bother counting individual's messages, but I'm hoping\nthat we'll get slower-paced and more focused discussions. ?If this\ndoesn't slow the list down enough, I'll make it a technical\nrestriction, which will be much more annoying for everyone. ?We'll see\nhow it goes.\n\n- Ranjit" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I approve of these restrictions.\n\nI would also like to add a third suggestion: *please stop changing subjects*!\n\nI try not to complain but merely 'mute' or 'killfile' threads I find\ndull or stupid (like a great many in the past few weeks), but I cannot\ndo this if people keep changing the subjects - the emails with\nmodified subjects will land right in my inbox, and like a rat on an\nintermittent reinforcement schedule, I will read it to see whether\nsomething interesting has been said." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2010-06-08T02:37:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nI would also like to add a third suggestion: *please stop changing subjects*!\n\nI try not to complain but merely 'mute' or 'killfile' threads I find\ndull or stupid (like a great many in the past few weeks), but I cannot\ndo this if people keep changing the subjects - the emails with\nmodified subjects will land right in my inbox, and like a rat on an\nintermittent reinforcement schedule, I will read it to see whether\nsomething interesting has been said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is also officially encouraged behavior. Think of it as a\nbureaucratic filing system - even if the topic of discussion drifts,\nkeeping the subject the same helps keep the thread of thought\ntogether.\n\nAlso, if you have a lot of related messages to reply to, I encourage\nyou to combine all your replies into one message, digest-style.\n\n- ranjit" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0DCD92.9070808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-08T04:56:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/7/2010 9:37 PM, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote:\nOn Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would also like to add a third suggestion: *please stop changing subjects*!\n\nI try not to complain but merely 'mute' or 'killfile' threads I find\ndull or stupid (like a great many in the past few weeks), but I cannot\ndo this if people keep changing the subjects - the emails with\nmodified subjects will land right in my inbox, and like a rat on an\nintermittent reinforcement schedule, I will read it to see whether\nsomething interesting has been said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not feel it right for you to expect everyone else to modify their \nbehavior to suit your reading preferences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is also officially encouraged behavior. Think of it as a\nbureaucratic filing system - even if the topic of discussion drifts,\nkeeping the subject the same helps keep the thread of thought\ntogether." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a minute - just two weeks ago you said \"It's a good idea to edit \nthe subject line of a discussion to reflect the topic being discussed\" - \nwhich is it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-08T15:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "<4C0DCD92.9070808@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/7/2010 9:37 PM, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Gwern Branwen ?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would also like to add a third suggestion: *please stop changing\nsubjects*!\n\nI try not to complain but merely 'mute' or 'killfile' threads I find\ndull or stupid (like a great many in the past few weeks), but I cannot\ndo this if people keep changing the subjects - the emails with\nmodified subjects will land right in my inbox, and like a rat on an\nintermittent reinforcement schedule, I will read it to see whether\nsomething interesting has been said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not feel it right for you to expect everyone else to modify their\nbehavior to suit your reading preferences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. Will you be extending your little anarchist free speech crusade\nto the *entirety* of netiquette? Or just the parts that people bring\nup?\n\nI ask for subject changes to match genuine topic changes precisely so\nother people do not have to change what they write, to allow me to opt\nout. If they don't, then I'm forced to either unsubscribe entirely, or\ndo my best to destroy each offending thread. I don't want to do\neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is also officially encouraged behavior. “Think of it as a\nbureaucratic filing system - even if the topic of discussion drifts,\nkeeping the subject the same helps keep the thread of thought\ntogether." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a minute - just two weeks ago you said \"It's a good idea to edit the\nsubject line of a discussion to reflect the topic being discussed\" - which\nis it”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's nothing inconsistent here, except in your head.\n\nI asked you offlist to look at the list of threads for just June and\ntell me whether you thought each and every one was a genuine subject\nedit in response to a topic change. You didn't. So I'll provide an\nexample from http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-June/thread.html\n\nWhat topic change, pray tell, is signaled by switching from\n'travelling north' to 'Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15'?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-08T15:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nWhat topic change, pray tell, is signaled by switching from\n'travelling north' to 'Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fairness, for those who receive the list as a digest, that is the\nform of the subject header they get. They would have to change the\nsubject header in order to keep it the same, so to speak." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-08T16:16:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ranjit owns the list.\n\nThe owner makes the rules.\n\nThis is not a democracy.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/7/2010 9:37 PM, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Gwern Branwen\n??wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I would also like to add a third suggestion: *please stop changing\nsubjects*!\n\nI try not to complain but merely 'mute' or 'killfile' threads I find\ndull or stupid (like a great many in the past few weeks), but I cannot\ndo this if people keep changing the subjects - the emails with\nmodified subjects will land right in my inbox, and like a rat on an\nintermittent reinforcement schedule, I will read it to see whether\nsomething interesting has been said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do not feel it right for you to expect everyone else to modify their\nbehavior to suit your reading preferences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see. Will you be extending your little anarchist free speech crusade\nto the *entirety* of netiquette? Or just the parts that people bring\nup?\n\nI ask for subject changes to match genuine topic changes precisely so\nother people do not have to change what they write, to allow me to opt\nout. If they don't, then I'm forced to either unsubscribe entirely, or\ndo my best to destroy each offending thread. I don't want to do\neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is also officially encouraged behavior. ??Think of it as a\nbureaucratic filing system - even if the topic of discussion drifts,\nkeeping the subject the same helps keep the thread of thought\ntogether." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wait a minute - just two weeks ago you said \"It's a good idea to edit\nthe\nsubject line of a discussion to reflect the topic being discussed\" -\nwhich\nis it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's nothing inconsistent here, except in your head.\n\nI asked you offlist to look at the list of threads for just June and\ntell me whether you thought each and every one was a genuine subject\nedit in response to a topic change. You didn't. So I'll provide an\nexample from\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-June/thread.html\n\nWhat topic change, pray tell, is signaled by switching from\n'travelling north' to 'Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15'?\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C0F1487.6030900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-09T04:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/8/2010 10:21 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do not feel it right for you to expect everyone else to modify their\nbehavior to suit your reading preferences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see. Will you be extending your little anarchist free speech crusade\nto the *entirety* of netiquette? Or just the parts that people bring\nup?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the pro-moderation anarchist, that's me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is also officially encouraged behavior. Think of it as a\nbureaucratic filing system - even if the topic of discussion drifts,\nkeeping the subject the same helps keep the thread of thought\ntogether." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wait a minute - just two weeks ago you said \"It's a good idea to edit the\nsubject line of a discussion to reflect the topic being discussed\" - which\nis it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's nothing inconsistent here, except in your head.\n\nI asked you offlist to look at the list of threads for just June and\ntell me whether you thought each and every one was a genuine subject\nedit in response to a topic change. You didn't. So I'll provide an\nexample from http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-June/thread.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't see any offlist messages from you, sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What topic change, pray tell, is signaled by switching from\n'travelling north' to 'Urth Digest, Vol 70, Issue 15'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a consequence of the list owner allowing digest mode to the \npeople who habitually overlook the part of each digest that says \nsomething substantially similar to \"When replying, please edit your \nSubject line so it is more specific than 'Re: Contents of GurpsNet-L \ndigest...'\" The list software is more than capable of being used to hold \nthose people accountable for their oversights without penalizing \neveryone else.\n\nI mean, digest mode has it uses, but aside from the subject mangling it \nalso fubars the message threading that would make life much easier for \nyou by letting you blacklist a conversation and never see replies in it \never again, regardless of what their subject lines say. *That* is not \njust a crime against notional nettiquette but violates internet \ntechnology standards as well as creating technical problems for people \nwith strong presentation preferences like yourself." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Laidlow", "address": "jon.laidlow at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-09T11:20:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "<4C0F1487.6030900@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While we're being kind to digest readers, it would help if some of you could\ndelete the irrelevant portions of the messages you're replying to. Sometimes\nthe digests have one message, which contains 6-7 previous messages, and they\nbecome very difficult to read...\n\n/ducks/\n\nJonathan\nwww.ultan.org.uk" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C106BC5.9040205@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T04:36:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/9/2010 6:20 AM, Jonathan Laidlow wrote:\nWhile we're being kind to digest readers, it would help if some of you\ncould delete the irrelevant portions of the messages you're replying to.\nSometimes the digests have one message, which contains 6-7 previous\nmessages, and they become very difficult to read..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that quote trimming is a very worthy practice, even if digest \nreaders are often the worst offenders." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-12T01:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "<4C0F1487.6030900@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 12:11 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWait a minute - just two weeks ago you said \"It's a good idea to edit the\nsubject line of a discussion to reflect the topic being discussed\" -\nwhich\nis it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's nothing inconsistent here, except in your head.\n\nI asked you offlist to look at the list of threads for just June and\ntell me whether you thought each and every one was a genuine subject\nedit in response to a topic change. You didn't. So I'll provide an\nexample from\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-June/thread.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't see any offlist messages from you, sorry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My mistake, that was James Wynn - same initials, I guess!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-12T03:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) crackdown 2.0", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't see any offlist messages from you, sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My mistake, that was James Wynn - same initials, I guess!\n\n--\ngwern\n _" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We seem to be pretty common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ______________________________________________" } ] } ] }