{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5631", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5631, "subject": "Wall of Nessus", "messages": 261, "voices": 27, "first": "2010-06-09T19:47:40+00:00", "last": "2010-06-21T20:18:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000901cb080c$a24bd6a0$3dd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-09T19:47:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Despite my recent musings about when and why the Wall of Nessus may have\nbeen built, upon further reflection I think I can establish from the text\nthat it antedates both the autarchy and Typhon.\n\nJonas came from an earlier time period and knew far more than Severian about\nthe past. Sev questioned him, when they were in Saltus, about the strange,\nman-like creatures they had seen when they passed through the Wall. He\nasked: \"When we were going through the Wall, you said the things we saw in\nthere were soldiers, and you implied they had been stationed there to resist\nAbaia and the others.\" (CLAW, chap. VIII)\n\nSev wanted to know if the man-apes he saw in the mine were also hybrids like\nthose in the Wall and why the autarchs had not used human soldiers. There\nfollows some debate about that, but it is not germane to my point. Jonas\nsaid: \"The old autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human\nsoldiers. But the warriors they had created by humanizing animals, and\nperhaps, in secret by bestializing men, were more loyal. They had to be,\nsince the populace - who hated their rulers - hated these inhuman servitors\nmore still. Thus the servitors could be made to endure things that human\nsoldiers would not. That may have been why they were used in the Wall. Or\nthere may be some other explanation entirely.\"\n\nRegardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the\npoint is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in\nthe Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and\nthose two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was\nthere before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the\npurpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.\n\nThat latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would rule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T07:11:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<000901cb080c$a24bd6a0$3dd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nDespite my recent musings about when and why the Wall of Nessus may have\nbeen built, upon further reflection I think I can establish from the text\nthat it antedates both the autarchy and Typhon.\n\nJonas came from an earlier time period and knew far more than Severian\nabout\nthe past. Sev questioned him, when they were in Saltus, about the strange,\nman-like creatures they had seen when they passed through the Wall. He\nasked: \"When we were going through the Wall, you said the things we saw in\nthere were soldiers, and you implied they had been stationed there to\nresist\nAbaia and the others.\" (CLAW, chap. VIII)\n\nSev wanted to know if the man-apes he saw in the mine were also hybrids\nlike\nthose in the Wall and why the autarchs had not used human soldiers. There\nfollows some debate about that, but it is not germane to my point. Jonas\nsaid: \"The old autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human\nsoldiers. But the warriors they had created by humanizing animals, and\nperhaps, in secret by bestializing men, were more loyal. They had to be,\nsince the populace - who hated their rulers - hated these inhuman servitors\nmore still. Thus the servitors could be made to endure things that human\nsoldiers would not. That may have been why they were used in the Wall. Or\nthere may be some other explanation entirely.\"\n\nRegardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the\npoint is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in\nthe Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and\nthose two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was\nthere before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the\npurpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the\noceans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev\npoints out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the size\nof Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for\ndefense against Abaia et al's human followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would rule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That \"... in the seas *now* ...\" is an annoying little itch. Of course, in\nUOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in\nTyphon's day." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T07:34:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders\n(separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it is\nan issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been\nthought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a\nminor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.\n\nOf course it also seemed to me that Jonas, while more knowledgeable than\nSeverian, was also still much in the dark on the exact root cause of the\nconstruction of the wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Mr Thalassocrat\nwrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Despite my recent musings about when and why the Wall of Nessus may have\nbeen built, upon further reflection I think I can establish from the text\nthat it antedates both the autarchy and Typhon.\n\nJonas came from an earlier time period and knew far more than Severian\nabout\nthe past. Sev questioned him, when they were in Saltus, about the strange,\nman-like creatures they had seen when they passed through the Wall. He\nasked: \"When we were going through the Wall, you said the things we saw in\nthere were soldiers, and you implied they had been stationed there to\nresist\nAbaia and the others.\" (CLAW, chap. VIII)\n\nSev wanted to know if the man-apes he saw in the mine were also hybrids\nlike\nthose in the Wall and why the autarchs had not used human soldiers. There\nfollows some debate about that, but it is not germane to my point. Jonas\nsaid: \"The old autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human\nsoldiers. But the warriors they had created by humanizing animals, and\nperhaps, in secret by bestializing men, were more loyal. They had to be,\nsince the populace - who hated their rulers - hated these inhuman\nservitors\nmore still. Thus the servitors could be made to endure things that human\nsoldiers would not. That may have been why they were used in the Wall. Or\nthere may be some other explanation entirely.\"\n\nRegardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the\npoint is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in\nthe Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and\nthose two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall\nwas\nthere before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the\npurpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the\noceans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev\npoints out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the size\nof Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for\ndefense against Abaia et al's human followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would\nrule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That \"... in the seas *now* ...\" is an annoying little itch. Of course, in\nUOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in\nTyphon's day.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006601cb0879$4ddd39c0$59cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-10T08:45:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted and wrote:\nRegardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the\npoint is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders\nin\nthe Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and\nthose two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall\nwas\nthere before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that\nthe\npurpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the\noceans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev\npoints out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the\nsize\nof Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for\ndefense against Abaia et al's human followers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas said: \"You were correct when you said Erebus and Abaia are as great as\nmountains, and I admit that I was surprised you knew it. Most people lack\nthe imagination to conceive of anything so large, and think them no bigger\nthan houses or ships. Their actual size is so great that while they remain\non this world they can never leave the water - their own weight would crush\nthem. You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or\ntossing boulders about. But by their thoughts they enlist servants, and they\nfling them against all rules that rival their own.\"\n\nI don't know if the sea monsters grew bigger over the years, as Baldanders\ndid, so that they weren't so large when the Wall was first built that it\nwould be useless against them, or if the Wall was effective only against\nman-sized foes under their control. Either way, the point I wanted to make\nis that Jonas's statements seem to indicate that the Wall was built before\nTyphon's time, and its purpose was to thwart the sea monsters' ambitions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and\nafter\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would\nrule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That \"... in the seas *now* ...\" is an annoying little itch. Of course, in\nUOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in\nTyphon's day." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, annoying, and Cyriaca's story about the founding of the library,\ntogether with what that doctor who looked Sev over after he got zapped by\nthat big gun had to say (\"This coast is quake prone, as the old records\nindicate clearly enough--praise to our monarch, by the way, for having them\nbrought here--\" [URTH, 259] ), suggest that Typhon was the ruler who caused\nthe curtain wall to be built around the collected writings, and the curtain\nwall is made of the same material as the Wall.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008e01cb087c$267bb700$59cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-10T09:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh Caswell wrote:\nI wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders\n(separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it\nis\nan issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been\nthought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a\nminor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the same thought. \n\nAnd an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where there\nare no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to\nthwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side of\nthe continent.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C10B0F0.7000003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T09:31:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<008e01cb087c$267bb700$59cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJosh Caswell wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders\n(separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps it\nis\nan issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been\nthought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a\nminor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had the same thought.\n\nAnd an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where there\nare no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to\nthwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side of\nthe continent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Wall may have been built to hold back the sea itself; the gate \ntunnels are easily sealed and presumably big, heavy slabs concealed \ninside can be driven deep into the river's bed to close the river \ningress and egress against the deep water pressure." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-10T09:43:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C10B0F0.7000003@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon - or whoever - was trying to mitigate global cataclysm.\n\nRemember, in his mind, Typhon is doing good.\n\nThere is an old idea of global floods, that sea level would rise all over\nthe World at the same time.\n\nThere doesn't seem to be enough water for this, but back in the day the\nidea was seriously proposed for a while.\n\nSo if this was what was happening, building a huge wall around a large\narea might work for saving a significant proportion of the World's\npopulation.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh Caswell wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders\n(separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps\nit\nis\nan issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once\nbeen\nthought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a\nminor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had the same thought.\n\nAnd an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where\nthere\nare no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to\nthwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side\nof\nthe continent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wall may have been built to hold back the sea itself; the gate\ntunnels are easily sealed and presumably big, heavy slabs concealed\ninside can be driven deep into the river's bed to close the river\ningress and egress against the deep water pressure.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8b9442bd24e25ba030efbfe2eb0cff2e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-10T09:45:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C10B0F0.7000003@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Playing the riddle game sharpens up the thought processes, doesn't it?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh Caswell wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders\n(separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea. Perhaps\nit\nis\nan issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once\nbeen\nthought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a\nminor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had the same thought.\n\nAnd an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where\nthere\nare no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to\nthwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side\nof\nthe continent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wall may have been built to hold back the sea itself; the gate\ntunnels are easily sealed and presumably big, heavy slabs concealed\ninside can be driven deep into the river's bed to close the river\ningress and egress against the deep water pressure.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C113F93.6080403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-10T19:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<000901cb080c$a24bd6a0$3dd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/9/2010 2:47 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat section of text also strongly suggests that the\npurpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.\n\nThat latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would rule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are \npowers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort \nthem out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill \nReis in AEG.)\nAnyway, we know that the monster Scylla at least was around at the time \nof the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it \nagainst her father.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003601cb0922$0df9bdc0$55cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-11T04:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C113F93.6080403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nThat latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and\nafter\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would\nrule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are\npowers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort\nthem out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill\nReis in AEG.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at\nleast as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. Anyone\nwho could build the _Whorl_ and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem\nsoldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if\nthey were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to\nhim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, we know that the monster Scylla at least was around at the time\nof the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it\nagainst her father." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but that may have involved a little retrofitting.\n\nThe Wall of Nessus just doesn't make much sense, no matter who built it, or\nwhen or why. I think it is one of those things that just have to be accepted\nfor the sake of the story, like FTL spaceships, time corridors, ghosts and\nspirit travel.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C11CC0A.20701@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T05:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<003601cb0922$0df9bdc0$55cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/10/2010 11:53 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nProbably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at\nleast as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. Anyone\nwho could build the _Whorl_ and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem\nsoldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if\nthey were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to\nhim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know for sure that Typhon built the Whorl, or did he appropriate \nit the way he did everything else on Urth when he set up his capital there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wall of Nessus just doesn't make much sense, no matter who built it, or\nwhen or why. I think it is one of those things that just have to be accepted\nfor the sake of the story, like FTL spaceships, time corridors, ghosts and\nspirit travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T08:09:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C11CC0A.20701@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well let's face it this is Wolfe we are talking about, perhaps it is just a\nmetaphor to show the separation of Nessus (and by that measure Severian)\nfrom the rest of Urth as all the scattered places are separated from one\nanother. I doubt he just meant it to be there just to be there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<61898d711ab4ed68c0b21512b7f9be31.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-11T08:20:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the idea of a flood wall.\n\nOf course, I would.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well let's face it this is Wolfe we are talking about, perhaps it is just\na\nmetaphor to show the separation of Nessus (and by that measure Severian)\nfrom the rest of Urth as all the scattered places are separated from one\nanother. I doubt he just meant it to be there just to be there.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C122C9A.9090903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-11T12:31:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<61898d711ab4ed68c0b21512b7f9be31.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their \npresence or their location) in Severian's day.\n\nOne thing has not been addressed. Presumably there has been social and \npolitical decay since Typhon's time, as the Commonwealth shrank from \nnear-global (correct?) to almost a city-state. This is all you really \nneed to know to explain the Wall and the curtain wall, whether one \napproaches it from a rational or a thematic perspective. The identity of \na few individual enemies is not important; the people and aristocracy of \nthe Commonwealth, such as they are, have always been at least potential \nenemies of the state. Typhon was probably at least somewhat paranoid anyway.\n\nThe Wall suggests ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and Byzantium; \ntherefore it is intended to suggest ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and \nByzantium, pointing both to Earth's future/deep past and to its \nhistorical counterpart(s)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI like the idea of a flood wall.\n\nOf course, I would.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " \nBut those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well let's face it this is Wolfe we are talking about, perhaps it is just\na\nmetaphor to show the separation of Nessus (and by that measure Severian)\nfrom the rest of Urth as all the scattered places are separated from one\nanother. I doubt he just meant it to be there just to be there.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<55196EA2A43C49DCACFE5D27D9A6D341@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-11T12:36:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<003601cb0922$0df9bdc0$55cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nJames Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are\npowers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort\nthem out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill\nReis in AEG.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at\nleast as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. \nAnyone\nwho could build the _Whorl_ and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem\nsoldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if\nthey were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to\nhim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree - the sea monsters may have great powers, but we clearly know that \nTyphon was concerned with other issues. If he was beleaguered by Abaia, \nErebus and Co., he would hardly have devoted resources to building the \nWhorl. And we know from his own words that the crisis he faced was the \nrapid diminution of light and heat from the Sun.\n\nOddly enough, none of this stuff has been an issue for me - perhaps because \nI don;t read carefully enough. in the first place, I totally don't remember \nthe \"now\" in \"powers in the sea\", and in the second, I never got the \nimpression that the wall was so enormous. I don't remember seeing any \nfigures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty high.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T13:18:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<55196EA2A43C49DCACFE5D27D9A6D341@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was also the idea that the Wall was an old particle accelerator, although I personaly never found any evidence for it, logical or otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: gerryq at indigo.ie\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:36:02 +0100\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus\n\n\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nJames Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are\npowers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort\nthem out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill\nReis in AEG.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at\nleast as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. \nAnyone\nwho could build the _Whorl_ and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem\nsoldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if\nthey were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to\nhim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree - the sea monsters may have great powers, but we clearly know that \nTyphon was concerned with other issues. If he was beleaguered by Abaia, \nErebus and Co., he would hardly have devoted resources to building the \nWhorl. And we know from his own words that the crisis he faced was the \nrapid diminution of light and heat from the Sun.\n\nOddly enough, none of this stuff has been an issue for me - perhaps because \nI don;t read carefully enough. in the first place, I totally don't remember \nthe \"now\" in \"powers in the sea\", and in the second, I never got the \nimpression that the wall was so enormous. I don't remember seeing any \nfigures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty high.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1260EA.5040304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T16:14:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C122C9A.9090903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/11/2010 7:31 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their\npresence or their location) in Severian's day." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They guard the entrances to the Wall's innards as well as serving as \ngate security, customs, etc. Just like air bases have MPs serving as \ntraffic cops despite writing tickets having nothing to do with strategic \nbombing." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1274ED.4020209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T17:39:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<003601cb0922$0df9bdc0$55cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would rule. [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are\npowers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort\nthem out tout de suite.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably so.[snip] Anyone who could build the_Whorl_ and manufacture\nhundreds of thousands of chem soldiers would have little trouble with\nsea monsters; and the Ascians, if they were even around in Typhon's era,\nwould have been less than fleas to him.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, we know that the monster Scylla at least was around at the time\nof the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it\nagainst her father.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but that may have involved a little retrofitting.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess what I'm saying is that I think Typhon's statement only \nemphatically implies that Typhon is able to know telepathically (through \nsome self-maintaining mechanisms) that the monsters have established \nthemselves as lords on Earth and that he considers them pretenders to \ntheir thrones.\n\nHis statement doesn't _really_ imply that the sea monsters were not \naround during his time. His conversation with Severian does not suggest \nthat they were not around even before Typhon (or arriving around the \nsame time) as treacherous and incursive forces. As always, they required \nwilling Earth-born allies and servants in order to be genuine powers, \nand those servants were much more exposed to the Autarch's wrath than \nthe monsters were themselves (ala Typhon's daughter). Even in AEG, the \ngovernments are not directly ruled by the Storm King in the way that the \nAscian government seems to be directed by Erebus. It's tricky business \nto rule the land when you can't leave the water.\n\nWhen the Autarch was strong and Earth technology was advanced they would \nnot have been able to establish their power beyond their physical reach, \nso Typhon did not need to extend his own power to their remote locations \nin order to wipe them out utterly (which even Typhon might not have been \nable to do).\n\nYes, I realize that it is not a big deal either way.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<008601cb099d$ab0f1940$43cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-11T19:38:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C11CC0A.20701@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDo we know for sure that Typhon built the Whorl, or did he appropriate\nit the way he did everything else on Urth when he set up his capital\nthere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, he built it. It is mentioned all through LS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their\npresence or their location) in Severian's day." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Not to mention that it failed to stop the flood. And what mighty\nruler in the distant past knew of and desired to attempt to thwart a massive\nfuture flood?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing has not been addressed. Presumably there has been social and\npolitical decay since Typhon's time, as the Commonwealth shrank from\nnear-global (correct?) to almost a city-state. This is all you really\nneed to know to explain the Wall and the curtain wall, whether one\napproaches it from a rational or a thematic perspective. The identity of\na few individual enemies is not important; the people and aristocracy of\nthe Commonwealth, such as they are, have always been at least potential\nenemies of the state. Typhon was probably at least somewhat paranoid\nanyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With good reason. \"It was a period of great confusion as well. My\nastronomers had told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too\nslowly, in fact, for the change to be noticeable in a human lifetime. They\nwere wrong. The heat of the world declined by nearly two parts in a thousand\nover a few years, then stabilized. Crops failed, and there were famines and\nriots. I should have left then.\" (SWORD, chap. XXV)\n\nAnd: \"This world, the most ancient of all, I made my capital. That was an\nerror, because I lingered too long when disaster came. By the time I would\nhave escaped, escape was no longer open to me-those to whom I had given\ncontrol of such ships as could reach the stars had fled in them, and I was\nbesieged on this mountain.\" (ibid., chap. XXVI)\n\nHe was besieged by the common people of Urth, mostly local people. But the\nmountain was far north of Nessus and its Wall, so the Wall can have been no\ncomfort to him there at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Wall suggests ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and Byzantium;\ntherefore it is intended to suggest ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and\nByzantium, pointing both to Earth's future/deep past and to its\nhistorical counterpart(s)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is, I think, another way of saying, \"The Wall is just a Big Dumb\nObject\", as Jeff put it, in the context of the Urth Cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOddly enough, none of this stuff has been an issue for me - perhaps\nbecause\nI don;t read carefully enough. in the first place, I totally don't\nremember\nthe \"now\" in \"powers in the sea\", and in the second, I never got the\nimpression that the wall was so enormous. I don't remember seeing any\nfigures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty\nhigh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Wall is improbably huge. See the part where Sev and Agia neared it for\nthe avern duel (chapters XXV, XXVII).\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T20:01:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<008601cb099d$ab0f1940$43cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tons of wall stuff" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-By other people\n\n\nThe wall could just be a wall.\n\n\nOf course I thought the Wall, the soldiers, its mystery, all of it was just\na left relic that showed the ability of the old generations to do things\nlike build improbably huge walls and carve their faces into mountains or\nwhatever. It is a link to the past, as everything that has been left is\n(the machinery etc) and it's exact function is unknown to everyone in the\npresent day." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C129C3A.1010400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-11T20:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<008601cb099d$ab0f1940$43cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " The flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their\n presence or their location) in Severian's day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. Not to mention that it failed to stop the flood. And what mighty\nruler in the distant past knew of and desired to attempt to thwart a massive\nfuture flood?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't Abaia's followers know of it? Wasn't that an important key in \ntheir loyalty?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T02:07:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C129C3A.1010400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As the theater troupe passes thorugh the wall, they meet Jonah\nwho offers to join their conversation and enlighten them further\nabout the Wall. He tells a story about how Urth's ancient rulers\nfeared nothing but their own people. The story then goes on to \ndescribe a woman who brought an interstellar handful of black \nbeans which she threatens to throw into the ocean and thus destroy\nthe world.\n \nThe story would seem to continue but is interupted by the \"affair\nat the gate\" which ends the first book. But what we are given might seem \nto imply the wall was built in response to the threat which figuratively \ngrew from alien black beans thrown in the ocean, i.e. the megatherians.\n \nIf the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the \npale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south,\nnecessitating complete enclosure. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T04:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<006601cb0879$4ddd39c0$59cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAndrew quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Regardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the\npoint is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders\nin\nthe Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and\nthose two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall\nwas\nthere before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that\nthe\npurpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the\noceans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev\npoints out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the\nsize\nof Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for\ndefense against Abaia et al's human followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas said: \"You were correct when you said Erebus and Abaia are as great\nas\nmountains, and I admit that I was surprised you knew it. Most people lack\nthe imagination to conceive of anything so large, and think them no bigger\nthan houses or ships. Their actual size is so great that while they remain\non this world they can never leave the water - their own weight would crush\nthem. You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or\ntossing boulders about. But by their thoughts they enlist servants, and\nthey\nfling them against all rules that rival their own.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' actually\nmeant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I think it was\nclearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos about why the\nhalf-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence of the wall itself.\n\nJonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in the\nolden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the populace.\nSome people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, eventually returning.\nOne woman came back with magic seeds, defied the rulers and on being\ncondemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The chaos at the gate prevents\nJonas from finishing. (I think I've remembered all of that correctly.)\n\nSo how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the seeds\nleads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does *that* in turn lead to the\nman-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned some of the\npopulace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the man-beasts as\ncreatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the lure of Abaia etc.\n\nFWIW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if the sea monsters grew bigger over the years, as Baldanders\ndid, so that they weren't so large when the Wall was first built that it\nwould be useless against them, or if the Wall was effective only against\nman-sized foes under their control. Either way, the point I wanted to make\nis that Jonas's statements seem to indicate that the Wall was built before\nTyphon's time, and its purpose was to thwart the sea monsters' ambitions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and\nafter\nTyphon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the\noceans were news to him (\"There are powers in the seas now who would\nrule.\"\n[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That \"... in the seas *now* ...\" is an annoying little itch. Of course,\nin\nUOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in\nTyphon's day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, annoying, and Cyriaca's story about the founding of the library,\ntogether with what that doctor who looked Sev over after he got zapped by\nthat big gun had to say (\"This coast is quake prone, as the old records\nindicate clearly enough--praise to our monarch, by the way, for having them\nbrought here--\" [URTH, 259] ), suggest that Typhon was the ruler who caused\nthe curtain wall to be built around the collected writings, and the curtain\nwall is made of the same material as the Wall.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C15BB80.3020006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-14T05:17:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This suggests to me that the Wall was there for the soldiers more than \nthe reverse; the soldiers didn't happen to take over the Wall as their \nbarracks, because it was built as their barracks. This theory combines a \nresponse to fear of external enemies with a response to fear of internal \nenemies. I like it.\n\nIf the Wall was also simply meant to overawe, that might be even more \neffective against the people than against the Ascians et al." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nJust on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' \nactually meant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I \nthink it was clearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos \nabout why the half-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence \nof the wall itself.\n \nJonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in \nthe olden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the \npopulace. Some people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, \neventually returning. One woman came back with magic seeds, defied the \nrulers and on being condemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The \nchaos at the gate prevents Jonas from finishing. (I think I've \nremembered all of that correctly.)\n \nSo how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the \nseeds leads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does *that* in turn \nlead to the man-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned \nsome of the populace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the \nman-beasts as creatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the \nlure of Abaia etc.\n \nFWIW." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b101cb0b91$16331100$bacf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-14T07:13:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nJust on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' actually\nmeant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I think it was\nclearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos about why the\nhalf-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence of the wall itself.\n\nJonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in the\nolden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the\npopulace.\nSome people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, eventually returning.\nOne woman came back with magic seeds, defied the rulers and on being\ncondemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The chaos at the gate prevents\nJonas from finishing. (I think I've remembered all of that correctly.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In his story, he doesn't actually say that she cast the beans into the sea,\njust that she threatened to and was seized and torn to bits. But I suppose\nwe are to assume the beans were indeed cast. The rulers were said to fear\nnone but their own people, so they built the Citadel on a hill north of the\ncity, which was then not called Nessus. There is no mention of the curtain\nwall around the Citadel at that time.\n\nOkay so far. The Citadel was built to defend against the people. But that\ndoesn't explain the Wall. In Severian's time, most of the Commonwealth's\npopulation seems to live *inside* the area circumscribed by the Wall.\nUncounted millions, anyway, so clearly the Wall was not intended to keep the\npeople away from the rulers in the Citadel at the center of the circular\nwalled city. It was intended to keep something *out* of the city." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the seeds\nleads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does *that* in turn lead to the\nman-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned some of the\npopulace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the man-beasts as\ncreatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the lure of Abaia\netc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that is the case, the Wall was built to defend against a threat from the\nsea that didn't exist before the beans were cast, regardless of the nature\nof the soldiers stationed within it. The improbable scale of the Wall\nstrikes me as all out of proportion to a threat the old rulers didn't take\nseriously and that Typhon didn't seem concerned with. Since Typhon was the\nlast monarch, and the villagers and others Sev met in Typhon's era called\nthe city Nessus, he must have ruled many thousands of years after the Wall\nwas built and the city had grown so far up the river that the Citadel was no\nlonger north of it.\n\nAt one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on\nThe Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and a few thousand\nlong\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C15FC3B.5090300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T09:54:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<00b101cb0b91$16331100$bacf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 2:13 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOkay so far. The Citadel was built to defend against the people. But that\ndoesn't explain the Wall. In Severian's time, most of the Commonwealth's\npopulation seems to live *inside* the area circumscribed by the Wall.\nUncounted millions, anyway, so clearly the Wall was not intended to keep the\npeople away from the rulers in the Citadel at the center of the circular\nwalled city. It was intended to keep something *out* of the city." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is mad industry to debate the single purpose of the Wall. \nEven by the standards of Urthly civilization at its height, it must have \nbeen a tremendous undertaking beyond even an absolute Monarch's pockets \nand would have had to serve many purposes for many interested parties to \nbe accomplished (jobs, defense, prestige, oppression, religion), and \nthen who knows how many successive ages found other uses for it.\n\nMillions living inside the Wall in Sev's time doesn't mean it wasn't \nbetter able to keep them out in ages previous." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C161980.9050503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-14T11:58:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<00b101cb0b91$16331100$bacf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's in Severian's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOkay so far. The Citadel was built to defend against the people. But that\ndoesn't explain the Wall. In Severian's time, most of the Commonwealth's\npopulation seems to live *inside* the area circumscribed by the Wall.\nUncounted millions, anyway, so clearly the Wall was not intended to keep the\npeople away from the rulers in the Citadel at the center of the circular\nwalled city. It was intended to keep something *out* of the city.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C162781.4040509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T12:58:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/13/2010 9:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIf the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the\npale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south,\nnecessitating complete enclosure. \t\t \t \t\t\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I asked who they are, Sieur. I know they're our enemies, that they live \nto the\nnorth in the hot countries, and that they're said to be enslaved by \nErebus. But\nwho are they?\" CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (CHAP XXV)\n\nAlthough the Ascians come from the North and Erebus is based in \nAntarctica, they are actually the minions of Erebus.\nTheir name means \"casting no shadow\". They cast no shadow NOT because \nthey are from the Equator (which they are not, or at least not \nentirely), but because they are from Erebus, whose name comes from the \nGreek elemental Titan who was \"The Darkness of the Underworld\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-14T13:06:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<00b101cb0b91$16331100$bacf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nAt one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on\nThe Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and a few \nthousand\nlong\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of \nordinary height and Severian made a typo.\n\nOne problem with a wall several leagues in height is that it would be \neffectively enclosed as far as the bulk of the atmosphere is concerned; \ncertainly that part of the atmosphere that carries moisture. In the absence \nof large evaporative surfaces other than the Gyoll - and we are not told of \nany huge lakes - I would expect the climate of Nessus to be excessively dry. \nIt would also be cut off from the general atmospheric circulation, including \nweather systems.\n\nI would be surprised if the climate outside the Wall was not so different \nfrom that inside as to be worth remarking upon. It is true that Severian \ndoes not mention the weather much. There is fog at the start, I think, and \na violent storm when he visits the stone town.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C16302C.1070907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T13:35:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and a few \nthousand\nlong\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored \nsails on\n\nToo big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is \nof ordinary height and Severian made a typo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One obstacle with the \"several leagues\" description is that that would \nmake the wall at *least* 4.5 miles high. That's the height of the \nHimalayas -- not Everest but the higher peaks in the range. Meanwhile, I \nthink it is safe to presume that the citadel is not far above sea-level.\n\nSomeone recently mentioned this quote by Severian:\n\n\"No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was \nno more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the \nglass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit.\" \nSHADOW XXXV\n\nWhat would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height \nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1647D4.3040005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T15:16:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C16302C.1070907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 8:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nSomeone recently mentioned this quote by Severian:\n\n\"No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was\nno more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the\nglass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit.\"\nSHADOW XXXV\n\nWhat would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height\nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a distance-to-horizon calculator here:\n\n\thttp://boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm\n\na 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league \nhas an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been \nup late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as \nthree furlongs instead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be \nvisible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a day." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3be3d7fc3d01626ccf46409c0c84aca7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-14T15:35:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C1647D4.3040005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We did fifty mile marches all the time in the Army.\n\n60 would be pushing it. It wouldn't be a leisurely walk.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 8:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Someone recently mentioned this quote by Severian:\n\n\"No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was\nno more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the\nglass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit.\"\nSHADOW XXXV\n\nWhat would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height\nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a distance-to-horizon calculator here:\n\n\thttp://boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm\n\na 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league\nhas an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been\nup late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as\nthree furlongs instead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be\nvisible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a day.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C164D91.6060602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T15:41:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C162781.4040509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 7:58 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/13/2010 9:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the\npale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south,\nnecessitating complete enclosure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I asked who they are, Sieur. I know they're our enemies, that they live\nto the\nnorth in the hot countries, and that they're said to be enslaved by\nErebus. But\nwho are they?\" CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (CHAP XXV)\n\nAlthough the Ascians come from the North and Erebus is based in\nAntarctica, they are actually the minions of Erebus.\nTheir name means \"casting no shadow\". They cast no shadow NOT because\nthey are from the Equator (which they are not, or at least not\nentirely), but because they are from Erebus, whose name comes from the\nGreek elemental Titan who was \"The Darkness of the Underworld\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abaia and Erebus are mentioned as if in league together on several \noccasions. Perhaps Abaia is the slightly humanlike of the two who \nmarshals the more humanoid forces of the Ascians and undines to pursue \nErebus' strategies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T15:49:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C164D91.6060602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always thought Abaia was calling the shots. He's the one who's set up as\nthe \"enemy\" of the New Sun, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/14/2010 7:58 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/13/2010 9:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the\npale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south,\nnecessitating complete enclosure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I asked who they are, Sieur. I know they're our enemies, that they live\nto the\nnorth in the hot countries, and that they're said to be enslaved by\nErebus. But\nwho are they?\" CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (CHAP XXV)\n\nAlthough the Ascians come from the North and Erebus is based in\nAntarctica, they are actually the minions of Erebus.\nTheir name means \"casting no shadow\". They cast no shadow NOT because\nthey are from the Equator (which they are not, or at least not\nentirely), but because they are from Erebus, whose name comes from the\nGreek elemental Titan who was \"The Darkness of the Underworld\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia and Erebus are mentioned as if in league together on several\noccasions. Perhaps Abaia is the slightly humanlike of the two who marshals\nthe more humanoid forces of the Ascians and undines to pursue Erebus'\nstrategies.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C166713.8070800@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T17:29:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C1647D4.3040005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 10:16 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\na 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league \nhas an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had \nbeen up late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a \nleague as three furlongs instead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall \nwould be visible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a \nday." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presumed that Wolfe would use the \"Roman\" league which is 2.22 km or \n1.4 miles. It's still to tall for \"several leagues\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00bb01cb0be8$c9fcd7a0$92ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-14T17:41:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote:\nAt one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails\non\nThe Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and a few\nthousand\nlong\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of\nordinary height and Severian made a typo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height\n(clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe\ngot to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nWhat would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height\nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered comments\nin the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2.\n\nAnd later:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I presumed that Wolfe would use the \"Roman\" league which is 2.22 km or\n1.4 miles. It's still to tall for \"several leagues\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, in an appendix to CLAW, Wolfe said that his use of league means a\ndistance of \"about three miles\".\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T18:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<00bb01cb0be8$c9fcd7a0$92ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the sun\nwas rising or setting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nGerry Quinn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails\non\nThe Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and a few\nthousand\nlong\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of\nordinary height and Severian made a typo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height\n(clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe\ngot to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it.\n\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height\nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered\ncomments\nin the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2.\n\nAnd later:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I presumed that Wolfe would use the \"Roman\" league which is 2.22 km or\n1.4 miles. It's still to tall for \"several leagues\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, in an appendix to CLAW, Wolfe said that his use of league means a\ndistance of \"about three miles\".\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C16714B.3020606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T18:13:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 1:12 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nA 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the \nsun was rising or setting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but any mountain range would technically do the same thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-14T18:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C16714B.3020606@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But a mountain peak would be far away, while the top of the wall is right at\nthe city. When the sun is less than 30 degrees above the horizon, the\nshadow of a 9 mile wall would be over 15 miles long. You would have a\nshorter day if you lived near the wall. Real estate values would suffer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/14/2010 1:12 PM, Jack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the sun\nwas rising or setting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, but any mountain range would technically do the same thing.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C16C32B.8010503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-15T00:02:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian alludes to this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith wrote:\nA 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the \nsun was rising or setting.\n\n\nOn Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Roy C. Lackey > wrote:\n\n Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote:\n > > At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the\n mirrored sails\n on\n > > The Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and\n a few\n > > thousand\n > > long\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.\n >\n > Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the\n Wall is of\n > ordinary height and Severian made a typo.\n\n It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height\n (clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater\n troupe\n got to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it.\n\n James Wynn wrote:\n > What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that\n height\n > to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?\n\n Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on\n scattered comments\n in the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2.\n\n And later:\n > I presumed that Wolfe would use the \"Roman\" league which is 2.22\n km or\n > 1.4 miles. It's still to tall for \"several leagues\".\n\n FWIW, in an appendix to CLAW, Wolfe said that his use of league\n means a\n distance of \"about three miles\".\n\n -Roy\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T01:38:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C1647D4.3040005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/14/2010 8:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Someone recently mentioned this quote by Severian:\n\n\"No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was\nno more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the\nglass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit.\"\nSHADOW XXXV\n\nWhat would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height\nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a distance-to-horizon calculator here:\n\n http://boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm\n\na 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles. Perhaps league has\nan ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been up late\nthe night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as three furlongs\ninstead of three miles? A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be visible for 59.9\nstatute miles...still too long to walk in a day." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is where I get to. Sev says that the highest flying birds such as\neagles, wild geese etc might be able to fly over the wall, or something like\nthat. Wikipedia trawling suggests a Wall height of something less than\n25,000ft. This is about the minimum height consistent with \"several\nleagues\", even for a 1.5 mile league.\n\nAt 25,000ft the Wall peeps over the horizon at a distance of about 200\nmiles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say) 300ft\ntorturers' tower, it's around 175 miles.\n\nSev travels for something less than 4 days to get to the Wall, by my\nreckoning:\n\n- First day ends sharing a bed with Baldanders.\n- Second day ends sharing a bed with Dorcas in the barracks, after the fight\nat the Sanguinary Field.\n- Third day ends with Talos' company, after the play.\n- Arrives at the Wall during the fourth day.\n\nEspecially given that he does a lot of non-travelling stuff along the way\n(and has Dorcas as companion for half of the journey), a rate of ~50 miles\nper day doesn't seem very likely.\n\nIf you want to make a consistent story out of this, maybe the thing to\nquestion is Sev's estimate of the height - how could he do this confidently?\n\n\nIf the Wall is \"only\" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from the\nCitadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable.\n\nBut it's probably not worth too much effort trying to make sense of a BDO :)\n\nOh, another thing: Sev says he could see the Wall to the north from the top\nof the tower, but what about east and west?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C16F552.8070600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T03:36:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 8:38 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\nThis is where I get to. Sev says that the highest flying birds such as\neagles, wild geese etc might be able to fly over the wall, or something\nlike that. Wikipedia trawling suggests a Wall height of something less\nthan 25,000ft. This is about the minimum height consistent with \"several\nleagues\", even for a 1.5 mile league." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, \nand eagles are endangered even today. There could be a similar shortage \nof the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them \nfrom flyers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 25,000ft the Wall peeps over the horizon at a distance of about 200\nmiles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say)\n300ft torturers' tower, it's around 175 miles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the Wall is \"only\" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from\nthe Citadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The increased vantage height of the towers should let the Wall be \nvisible from *farther* away, rather than constraining the distance closer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T03:47:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C16F552.8070600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n\nAt 25,000ft the Wall peeps over the horizon at a distance of about 200\nmiles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "300ft torturers' tower, it's around 175 miles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " If the Wall is \"only\" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from\nthe Citadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The increased vantage height of the towers should let the Wall be visible\nfrom *farther* away, rather than constraining the distance closer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Argh! I'd worry about early senility if I couldn't remember making stupid\nmistakes like that even when I was young.\n\nSo figure around 125 miles away, for a mile high Wall just visible from a\n300 ft torturers' tower. I guess that's probably too far, so you'd probably\nhave to cut the down the Wall height even further." } ] }, { "message_id": "<332266.3459.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T04:18:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<00bb01cb0be8$c9fcd7a0$92ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Roy C. Lackey \nGerry Quinn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails\non\nThe Ship, said that the Wall was \"a few leagues in height and a few\nthousand\nlong\" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Too big. I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of\nordinary height and Severian made a typo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height\n(clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe\ngot to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height\nto disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered comments\nin the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nHe estimated the Wall's height at 3000 feet (taking the flight ceiling for waterfowl to be 4,000 feet). He didn't mention the quotation from /TUotNS/ about \"a few leagues\". Also, he took the radius of the Wall to be 10 leagues according to the map in /Plan(e)t Engineering/, which shows the Citadel at the center of the Wall. Thus he couldn't reconcile this with Severian's \"black line\" comment.\n\nWith that radius, the circumference of the Wall is about 63 leagues, not \"thousands\".\n\nWhat does Severian know about the heights of flying birds? Part of his education in the Matachin Tower?\n\nWhy doesn't any of us have /Plan(e)t Engineering/? Including me? Apparently it's also got a map of the Commonwealth. If Michael Andre-Driussi's map in /LU2/ is based on that, by the way, then Nessus is near the west coast of South America and is therefore not Buenos Aires, and the mountains are not identical to the Andes.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<475217.14200.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T04:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C16F552.8070600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nWolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, and eagles are endangered even\ntoday." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fortunately, this last is not true in general. The bald eagle, golden eagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts of the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN, though populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some places, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a number of years. There a few endangered eagle species, many of them restricted to islands, but I can't find a good list.\n\nThe Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and should naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them from flyers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.\n\nI'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<89a9ebd826b1f3e395502ba2ee32c20f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-15T05:04:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<475217.14200.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hermann Goering is the father of modern conservation.\n\nGood old Fats Meier.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time,\nand eagles are endangered even\ntoday." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fortunately, this last is not true in general. The bald eagle, golden\neagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts\nof the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN,\nthough populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some\nplaces, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a\nnumber of years. There a few endangered eagle species, many of them\nrestricted to islands, but I can't find a good list.\n\nThe Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and\nshould naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps\nfrom Exultants overhunting them from flyers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them\nwhen they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.\n\nI'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in\nthe forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the\nspecies that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see\nas threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3535418532a177bb57f05a125a4333f2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-15T05:06:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<475217.14200.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hermann Goering is the father of modern conservation.\n\nGood old Fats Meier.\n\nNot actually, but close enough.\n\nThe laws he wrote for Germany are still on the books.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time,\nand eagles are endangered even\ntoday." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fortunately, this last is not true in general. The bald eagle, golden\neagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts\nof the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN,\nthough populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some\nplaces, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a\nnumber of years. There a few endangered eagle species, many of them\nrestricted to islands, but I can't find a good list.\n\nThe Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and\nshould naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps\nfrom Exultants overhunting them from flyers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them\nwhen they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.\n\nI'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in\nthe forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the\nspecies that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see\nas threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C173E2F.1010008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T08:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<475217.14200.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 11:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nA great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.\n\nI'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's at odds with Wolfe's worldiews and other stories from the period, \nlike \"Beautyland\". He considered/considers non-Christian societies to be \ntainted and given to cruelty, and we know exultant debutantes like their \nkicks vicious. They already have to keep the flyers tethered way up \nthere, what fun to throw some bread out the hatch until you've got lots \nof the buggers waiting to be zapped.\n\nThen again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into \npossession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars, and \ntheir line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<440649.23687.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-15T18:42:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C173E2F.1010008@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/14/2010 11:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt. It's the\nspecies that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's at odds with Wolfe's worldiews and other stories from the period, like \"Beautyland\". He considered/considers non-Christian societies to be tainted and > given to cruelty, and we know exultant debutantes like their kicks vicious. They already have to keep the flyers tethered way up there, what fun to throw some > bread out the hatch until you've got lots of the buggers waiting to be zapped." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not talking about warm fuzzy conservation, and anyway we know many exultants like to hunt. But as Brunians pointed out, you don't have to be a nice person to want to assure yourself and your descendants a supply of animals to kill. That kind of conservation was pretty much the original in civilization, I think, and it's still very powerful (Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc.).\n\n(But see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houbara_Bustard#Relation_with_humans and references therein.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's more than one war?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.\n\nIt's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C184744.2060502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-16T03:38:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<440649.23687.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nThen again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's more than one war?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher \nthey fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, \nor mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery \nindicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require \nit. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to \nproduce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to \nsomeone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing \nas geese while spying for the enemy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6610EC34-1AA9-42B5-BB90-E0640A41FEC2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-16T05:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C184744.2060502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mmm. A sooty drumstick sounds delicious. So does an ice cream drumstick.\n\nSorry to bounce back for a moment here, but...\n\nI've always felt the wall, as described in UotNS, was quite implausible as well.\n\nUsing UotNS's quote as canon, Wall of Nessus = 9 miles high by 9,000 miles long.\n\nThe stratosphere is about 12 miles up. So 9 miles up is consistent with birds not being able to fly over it (highest bird flight on Earth was a vulture recorded at 7 miles up), but makes for a really hard sell visually.\n\nAlso, at 9,000 miles in length, if the Wall were unwrapped it would encompass more than 1/3 of our Earth at the equator.\n\nAnother reference... the entirety of Texas's border equals only 3,800 miles.\n\nAnd here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of the Universe\")\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's more than one war?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require it. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as geese while spying for the enemy.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C18B454.4060500@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-16T11:24:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<6610EC34-1AA9-42B5-BB90-E0640A41FEC2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAnd here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of the Universe\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth \nof air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's \njust no consistent detail on the size of the Wall." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C18B56C.4060709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-16T11:28:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<6610EC34-1AA9-42B5-BB90-E0640A41FEC2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it's truly a Big Object.\n\nBut how Dumb is it? That's the question ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nMmm. A sooty drumstick sounds delicious. So does an ice cream drumstick.\n\nSorry to bounce back for a moment here, but...\n\nI've always felt the wall, as described in UotNS, was quite implausible as well.\n\nUsing UotNS's quote as canon, Wall of Nessus = 9 miles high by 9,000 miles long.\n\nThe stratosphere is about 12 miles up. So 9 miles up is consistent with birds not being able to fly over it (highest bird flight on Earth was a vulture recorded at 7 miles up), but makes for a really hard sell visually.\n\nAlso, at 9,000 miles in length, if the Wall were unwrapped it would encompass more than 1/3 of our Earth at the equator.\n\nAnother reference... the entirety of Texas's border equals only 3,800 miles.\n\nAnd here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of the Universe\")\n\n...ryan\n\n\n\nOn Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's more than one war?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require it. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as geese while spying for the enemy.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14A8C3C2-1ABB-43CF-B89F-2DBFD65F2752@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-16T14:21:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C18B56C.4060709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out \nTyphon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to cause \nharm?\n\nI can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be \ncritical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked the \nidea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at \nimmigration reform.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\nSo it's truly a Big Object.\n\nBut how Dumb is it? That's the question ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<844581.46262.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-16T17:06:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<14A8C3C2-1ABB-43CF-B89F-2DBFD65F2752@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of at least 3 categories:\n\nUnintentional error (oops!)\nConscious error (So what? It sounds cool.)\nIntentional error (Bwa ha ha!)\n\nOnly the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation?\n\nTruly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different.\n\n--- On Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth)\n Wall of Nessus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:21 AM\n\nForgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out Typhon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to cause harm?\n\nI can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be critical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked the idea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at immigration reform.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSo it's truly a Big Object.\n\nBut how Dumb is it? That's the question ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T03:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<844581.46262.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess, in the words of Thecla...\n\n\"One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure a foundation as a contradiction.\"\n\nBig dumb wall, after all?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nThe discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of at least 3 categories:\n\nUnintentional error (oops!)\nConscious error (So what? It sounds cool.)\nIntentional error (Bwa ha ha!)\n\nOnly the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation?\n\nTruly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different.\n\n--- On Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T03:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ain Elohim.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess, in the words of Thecla...\n\n\"One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure a\nfoundation as a contradiction.\"\n\nBig dumb wall, after all?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of\nat least 3 categories:\n\nUnintentional error (oops!)\nConscious error (So what? It sounds cool.)\nIntentional error (Bwa ha ha!)\n\nOnly the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete\nattempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life\nbecomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between\nthe Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does\neither one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they\ninflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation?\n\nTruly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close,\nquantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels\nin far Cathay, the results would not be much different.\n\n--- On Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rob", "address": "roobarr at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T03:20:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some quick calulations on the height and length of the wall.\nIf we believe the 9 miles (2.6 Leagues) high by 9000 miles (2606 leagues)\nlong this matches the \"a few leagues in height and a few thousand long.\"\nHowever we are talking about a wall approximately one and a half times the\nheight of everest from sea level with a radius of 1432 miles assuming it is\ncircular and encompasses about 6 million square miles. If the citadel is\nassumed to be at the centre then this is a ~20-30 days brisk walk to reach\nthe wall.\nAlso, using some planar trig (I've never learnt to adapt to spherical\ngeometry) and a bit of logic the wall, even at that size, should be\ninvisible over the curve of the earth from the centre.\nI've always thought this was a conversion issue from the \"translation\" as\neven using archaic measurements such as miles (just to help the yanks)\nintroduces confusion and uncertainty. Surely the translator working on a\nforeign language with alien measurement systems could have simply\nmiscalculated completely.\nRob" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C19B3D1.8020202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T05:34:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C18B454.4060500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent\nof silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues\nin height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown\nfence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of\nthe Universe\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth\nof air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's\njust no consistent detail on the size of the Wall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we \nhave generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has \nmoved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in \nthe past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of \nSeverian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected \nhistorian and \"G.W.\" is caught up in it as well.\n\nThis could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor \nof 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement \nthat G.W. has chosen to translate as \"league\" has different meanings or \ndifferent idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the \nground, or for vertical height vs length.\n\n(It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's \ngravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact, \nthe low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being \nlargely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6b956c659275aac884daa13fbdf08c96.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T06:03:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C19B3D1.8020202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is like pretend for you people?\n\nI don't understand this phenomenon.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent\nof silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues\nin height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown\nfence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of\nthe Universe\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth\nof air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's\njust no consistent detail on the size of the Wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we\nhave generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has\nmoved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in\nthe past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of\nSeverian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected\nhistorian and \"G.W.\" is caught up in it as well.\n\nThis could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor\nof 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement\nthat G.W. has chosen to translate as \"league\" has different meanings or\ndifferent idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the\nground, or for vertical height vs length.\n\n(It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's\ngravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact,\nthe low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being\nlargely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.)\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F18DA3C-BBDE-45F9-92DD-2599651C672C@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T06:06:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<6b956c659275aac884daa13fbdf08c96.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no?\n\nOr perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 17, 2010, at 2:03 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThis is like pretend for you people?\n\nI don't understand this phenomenon.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent\nof silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues\nin height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown\nfence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of\nthe Universe\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth\nof air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's\njust no consistent detail on the size of the Wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we\nhave generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has\nmoved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in\nthe past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of\nSeverian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected\nhistorian and \"G.W.\" is caught up in it as well.\n\nThis could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor\nof 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement\nthat G.W. has chosen to translate as \"league\" has different meanings or\ndifferent idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the\nground, or for vertical height vs length.\n\n(It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's\ngravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact,\nthe low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being\nlargely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.)\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494ab44da92fed2b6c9c08b35ac3b106.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T06:12:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<8F18DA3C-BBDE-45F9-92DD-2599651C672C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Several of the list members enjoy arguing - can you believe it - about\nthings in the book, what they mean, whether there is science behind them,\nwhether they are real.\n\nThis is almost as much fun as the religious arguments.\n\nPersonally, I never argue.\n\nIt is an unhealthy practice.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is\nquite a present part of the text, no?\n\nOr perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 2:03 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is like pretend for you people?\n\nI don't understand this phenomenon.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/16/2010 12:47 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...\n\n\"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent\nof silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues\nin height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown\nfence of a sheepfold...\" (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV \"The End of\nthe Universe\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift\nworth\nof air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's\njust no consistent detail on the size of the Wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which\nwe\nhave generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has\nmoved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in\nthe past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of\nSeverian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected\nhistorian and \"G.W.\" is caught up in it as well.\n\nThis could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a\nfactor\nof 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement\nthat G.W. has chosen to translate as \"league\" has different meanings or\ndifferent idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the\nground, or for vertical height vs length.\n\n(It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's\ngravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In\nfact,\nthe low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for\nbeing\nlargely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.)\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<728C2F56-22AA-457A-A78B-201686E5DAAF@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T06:54:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<494ab44da92fed2b6c9c08b35ac3b106.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C19C82E.8090403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T07:01:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<8F18DA3C-BBDE-45F9-92DD-2599651C672C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/17/2010 1:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no?\n\nOr perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The notional translator of the BotNS signs his notes at the end of \nVolume I as \"G.W.\" G.W. is a fictional Gene Wolfe, very similar to but \nmuch less informed than the author. This allows the author additional \nlicense to feint and mislead with errors from an unreviewed and in fact \nunreviewable translation to compound those of an unreliable narrator." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C19CD35.5040808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T07:22:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<728C2F56-22AA-457A-A78B-201686E5DAAF@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/17/2010 1:54 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,\nclawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no\nlonger bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away -\nnot into a chair this time but against the wall. *Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer.*\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the\nnature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps she has a plate in her head? Sev's comments on Jonas indicate \nthat functional prosthetics are not particularly remarkable in the \nCommonwealth.\n\nOr she could just have a sturdy, thick skull that makes a dull clicking \nnoise like this mason's hammer:\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_LAumupL2U&feature=related" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T07:35:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<728C2F56-22AA-457A-A78B-201686E5DAAF@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh yeah.\n\nThat breaks it open.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written\noff...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,\nclawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no\nlonger bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not\ninto a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone,\nand though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as\nsharp as the tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the\nnature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?\n\n...ryan_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4441954df01956f1dc5e44181c838c3f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T07:39:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C19CD35.5040808@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which do you think is more likely, Wilson?\n\nThis is not my turn, by the way.\n\nThis is an ordinary question.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/17/2010 1:54 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,\nclawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no\nlonger bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away -\nnot into a chair this time but against the wall. *Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer.*\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the\nnature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps she has a plate in her head? Sev's comments on Jonas indicate\nthat functional prosthetics are not particularly remarkable in the\nCommonwealth.\n\nOr she could just have a sturdy, thick skull that makes a dull clicking\nnoise like this mason's hammer:\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_LAumupL2U&feature=related\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A0226.8030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T11:08:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI guess, in the words of Thecla...\n\n\"One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure \na foundation as a contradiction.\"\n\nBig dumb wall, after all?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all \nof at least 3 categories:\n\nUnintentional error (oops!)\nConscious error (So what? It sounds cool.)\nIntentional error (Bwa ha ha!)\n\nOnly the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's \nincomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and \nhis life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the \nrelationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more \nproblematic. What does either one know about estimating height and \ndistance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story \nbenefit from obfuscation?\n\nTruly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive \nclose, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about \nhis travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different.\n\n--- On *Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn />/* wrote:\n\n\n From: Ryan Dunn >\n Subject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" >\n Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:21 AM\n\n Forgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out\n Typhon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to\n cause harm?\n\n I can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be\n critical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked\n the idea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at\n immigration reform.\n\n ...ryan\n\n On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\n\n > So it's truly a Big Object.\n >\n > But how Dumb is it? That's the question ...\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<952830.40668.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T15:29:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C19C82E.8090403@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \n\nOn 6/17/2010 1:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no?\n\n Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The notional translator of the BotNS signs his notes at the end of Volume I as \"G.W.\" G.W. is a fictional Gene\nWolfe, very similar to but much less informed than the author. This allows the author additional license to feint > and mislead with errors from an unreviewed and in fact unreviewable translation to compound those of an\nunreliable narrator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention an excuse for him--has he ever used it?--or readers when he makes a mistake. I feel certain the dimensions of the Wall given in TUotNS are a mistake. Second choice: the Wall goes around the House Absolute as well as Nessus, and much of it is underground. :-)\n\nRob: I'm impressed enough by Brunians's 50-mile hikes when he was a soldier, but 1400 miles in 20 days would be in the world-record range, not a brisk walk. See\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Heukemes\n\nNot that it matters. The only reasonable way this reader can think about the wall is as a couple hundred miles around, as shown in the author's map in /Plan(e)t Engineeriing/, not thousands. I think I'm agreeing with you.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<13822.30483.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T15:33:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<728C2F56-22AA-457A-A78B-201686E5DAAF@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<08abfe478966bcf9163c43a08e9d926a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T15:42:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<13822.30483.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<71A364E9-AB1C-44D7-9730-9794DD7EA00C@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:15:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<08abfe478966bcf9163c43a08e9d926a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her \nabundant head of hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second \nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHave you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew \nat me,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the \nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's \nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as \nto the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the \ntap of a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took \nthis to\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's \nbetween two\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:19:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<71A364E9-AB1C-44D7-9730-9794DD7EA00C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nYes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n? ? _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A4D67.8010101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's ridiculous?\n\nI always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless \nof the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, \"The sound \nof her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone\"?\n\nHead = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, \nis the only open question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThis is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n \nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n \nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this to\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:31:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I was using actual description here rather than the inference of \nomnipresent incest.\n\nThere's a ribbon visible on the side of Agilus's face like the one \nwith the skull mask (about as overt a clue as he could have written \nwithout being Dan Brown), he and Agia are twins (by logic, they have \nto be of the same make-up whether human or otherwise), and when Agia's \nhead hits the wall it sounds sharp as a hammer hitting stone, despite \nan abundant head full of hair.\n\nIs it so ridiculous to posit something's fishy? I'm on high alert on \nthis read thru in case there are any more oddities I've missed. If \nanyone has any off hand, of course........\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:19 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nwrote:\nThis is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her \nabundant head\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second \nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew \nat me,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the \nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against \nthe\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, \nthe\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's \nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as \nto the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the \ntap of a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took \nthis to\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's \nbetween two\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. \nBut I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:33:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1A4D67.8010101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am reminded of some things Alan Moore said about _Watchmen_ when it\nwas first coming out.\n\nThe first thing he said was that everything in _Watchmen_ means something.\n\nThe second thing, upon seeing the detailed analysis being performed in\nthe fan press and especially on the Intartoobs, was \"...but not\neverything means _much_.\"\n\nI suspect that we are often guilty of overanalyzing details in Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat's ridiculous?\n\nI always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of\nthe explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, \"The sound of her\nhead hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone\"?\n\nHead = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is\nthe only open question.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a\nmason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue\nas to the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of\na\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n? ?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<746341.80549.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:33:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wall of Nessus", "in_reply_to": "<4C184744.2060502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn 6/15/2010 1:42 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the\ncourse of any number of wars," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's more than one war?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, okay, could well be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we have evidence of weapons with a line-of-sight range? Evidence that there are many? When Severian is in battle, it's clear that such weapons are quite rare right where he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl. It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much\nagainst energy weapons as against bows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry\ninfantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also math about visibility and hittability. A Ruddy-headed Goose (apparently the most migratory goose in temperate South America) 4000 feet away would would subtend an angle of around 1.4 minutes of arc (beak to tip of tail). That's a speck--a person with 20/20 vision can resolve two lines that are 1 minute of arc apart. For comparison, the bullseye of a B-6 (CP) 50-yard slow-fire repair-center target from National Target appears to me to subtend about 2.5 minutes of arc at 50 yards.\n\nhttp://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9528/Product/B_6__CP__50_YARD_SLOW_FIRE_REPAIR_CENTER_TARGETS\n\nor http://tinyurl.com/259kd2y\n\nHitting a moving overhead target the size of the goose, from a standing position, strikes me as a lucky shot--if you saw the goose in the first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a mile away from ground zero, a goose 4000 feet up would be well over the horizon, as you point out, but pretty much invisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back on topic: the mounted dwarfs definitely don't have weapons with a range of 4000 feet, or we wouldn't be reading this story. The only weapons like that in the battle, as far as I recall, are the Ascian artillery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting,\nor that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical\npower," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Places where people are likely to get a shot at a wild goose? In fact, Severian crosses quite a bit of uninhabited and very sparsely inhabited territory with no electricity in sight. It seems likely that there are big regions with no hunting pressure on game that's out of bowshot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "assuming the weapons require it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know they can run out of charges, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Assuming charges are so easy to get you can use one or more for a sooty drumstick instead of saving it for a baluchither or an alzabo or a brigand. Severian refers to the charges of the irregulars' conti as \"precious\" (/Citadel/, Ch. XX)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and even a\nsooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as\ngeese while spying for the enemy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite true, quite true.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A4F5F.8020800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:37:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no doubt about that. But when an author who persistently and \ndeliberately confounds the reader's preconceptions about humans vs \nrobots in his characters, his direct clue---plain as day---that \nsomeone's head is metallic cannot possibly be categorized as \"not \nmeaning much.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI am reminded of some things Alan Moore said about _Watchmen_ when it\nwas first coming out.\n\nThe first thing he said was that everything in _Watchmen_ means something.\n\nThe second thing, upon seeing the detailed analysis being performed in\nthe fan press and especially on the Intartoobs, was \"...but not\neverything means _much_.\"\n\nI suspect that we are often guilty of overanalyzing details in Wolfe's work.\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's ridiculous?\n\nI always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of\nthe explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, \"The sound of her\nhead hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone\"?\n\nHead = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is\nthe only open question.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn \n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a\nmason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue\nas to the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of\na\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A53BA.7050706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T16:56:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<13822.30483.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/17/2010 10:33 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nInteresting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap of\na mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this\nto mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's a clue about the wall, rather than her head." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<16dd78dd1c4febb6de9dce6e88f6154c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<71A364E9-AB1C-44D7-9730-9794DD7EA00C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is conclusive.\n\nMakes things how much simpler?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her\nabundant head of hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second\nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew\nat me,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the\nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's\nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as\nto the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the\ntap of a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took\nthis to\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's\nbetween two\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<90a561c3fba5f7f3703ce1c7714f9746.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human --" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, that's funny.\n\nDude.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second\nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the\nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's\nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to\nthe\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap\nof a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n? ? _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1A4D67.8010101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.\n\nThey are ship's robots.\n\nAgia is Hethor's paracoita.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's ridiculous?\n\nI always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless\nof the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, \"The sound\nof her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting\nstone\"?\n\nHead = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly,\nis the only open question.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second\nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the\nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n\nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's\nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n\nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to\nthe\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap\nof a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1c7a2c3574cce9200f6da10b3a6c75a6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is often true.\n\nNot this time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am reminded of some things Alan Moore said about _Watchmen_ when it\nwas first coming out.\n\nThe first thing he said was that everything in _Watchmen_ means something.\n\nThe second thing, upon seeing the detailed analysis being performed in\nthe fan press and especially on the Intartoobs, was \"...but not\neverything means _much_.\"\n\nI suspect that we are often guilty of overanalyzing details in Wolfe's\nwork.\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's ridiculous?\n\nI always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless\nof\nthe explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, \"The sound of\nher\nhead hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone\"?\n\nHead = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly,\nis\nthe only open question.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her\nabundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second\nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the\nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against\nthe\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair,\nthe\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a\nmason's hammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a\nclue\nas to the\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap\nof\na\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took\nthis\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's\nbetween\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But\nI\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n? ?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A58FE.9050300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:18:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<90a561c3fba5f7f3703ce1c7714f9746.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l has a point: the principle of twincest must be satisfied.\n\nBut I think the fact that Agia and Agilus are twins already does that. \nAlso, if I recall correctly, the two each pretended to be the other. \nTherefore, in a fuzzy way, Severian was attracted to both of them, thus \nlinking him sexually with the \"(un)holy\" pair. What else is needed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThis is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human --\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, that's funny.\n\nDude.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second\nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the\nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n \nThat last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's\nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n \nAm I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to\nthe\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap\nof a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:36:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1A58FE.9050300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK - this works for me, and, along with Josh's point that Hethor is\nknown to be attracted to robots, has convinced me that this is at\nleast a plausible theory, if not quite a dead cert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:18 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\nDan'l has a point: the principle of twincest must be satisfied.\n\nBut I think the fact that Agia and Agilus are twins already does that. Also,\nif I recall correctly, the two each pretended to be the other. Therefore, in\na fuzzy way, Severian was attracted to both of them, thus linking him\nsexually with the \"(un)holy\" pair. What else is needed?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is getting ridiculous.\n\nAgila must be human --" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?she has to be related to Severian -- after all,\nhe's sexually attracted to her..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, that's funny.\n\nDude.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant\nhead\nof hair.\n\nI just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second\nmask.\n\nAnywho.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?\n\nIt does not sound like the description.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "From: Ryan Dunn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously\nwritten off...\n\n\"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at\nme,\nclawing for my eyes as\nThecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the\nthoughts\nof imprisonment and\npain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the\nwall. Her head struck the\nstone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the\nsound was as sharp as\nthe tap of a mason's hammer.\"\n(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)\n\n? ? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a\nmason's\nhammer\nwould be very tinny and\nunusual of a human skull, don't you think?\n\n? ? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a\nclue as to\nthe\nnature of these odd twins and\ntheir masks upon masks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Interesting question, but it says the sound is as \"sharp\" as the tap\nof a\nmason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this\nto\nmean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between\ntwo\nhard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I\ndon't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n? ?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:38:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:39:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm lost. The girl in the box?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, wrote:\nNot only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:46:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nI'm lost. The girl in the box?\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T17:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \"even if\nshe were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of\nTyphon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change\nanything as far as the story is concerned?\nMy sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a\nHierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters\nthat's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter\ninsofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot\nexplain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nHethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<65BD07E2-BBDD-4EE2-B439-AC4CDB140F93@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T18:01:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She \nIS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B wrote:\nI suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \n\"even if she were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus / \ncould/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful \nignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is \nconcerned?\nMy sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, \neven a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of \nthe characters that's important, not their creature type. That only \nseems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - \ndoes her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n wrote:\nHethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A66DF.1040304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T18:18:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<65BD07E2-BBDD-4EE2-B439-AC4CDB140F93@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Long Sun, it seems pretty clear who are the robots and who are not, \nwhile on Urth, little is so clear.\n\nI don't know how much of this can be explained by Urth history, given \nthat Typhon had an array of robots available to him, that Hethor, as a \nstar sailor, has access to all eras, and that on Urth, technology has \nbeen lost and patched and hidden.\n\nAre Agila and Agia sex robots?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nCould explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She \nIS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \n\"even if she were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus \n/could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful \nignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is \nconcerned? \nMy sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, \neven a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of \nthe characters that's important, not their creature type. That only \nseems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - \ndoes her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\n On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins\n > wrote:\n > I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n >\n > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, > wrote:\n >>\n >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n >>\n >> Agia was the girl in the box.\n >>\n >> .\n >>\n >>\n >>\n >>\n >> _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T18:18:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1A66DF.1040304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But\nshe was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her\nrobofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop:\n\nShe wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness,\nand as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist,\nturning the skin there to palest gold.\nTSOTT, chapter XVI\n\nDorcas is also a robot:\n\n'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a\nshirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a\nbell.\nTSOTT, chapter XXVII\n\nBells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you\nneed? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that\nhe is a robot too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians wrote:\nShe and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.\n\nThey are ship's robots." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut\nAgilus's head off." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1A6967.8060601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T18:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny!\n\nDon't make the mistake of confusing metaphors and similes, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nAgia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But\nshe was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her\nrobofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop:\n\nShe wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness,\nand as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist,\nturning the skin there to palest gold.\nTSOTT, chapter XVI\n\nDorcas is also a robot:\n\n'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a\nshirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a\nbell.\nTSOTT, chapter XXVII\n\nBells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you\nneed? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that\nhe is a robot too.\n\nBrunians wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.\n\nThey are ship's robots.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut\nAgilus's head off.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T18:32:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<65BD07E2-BBDD-4EE2-B439-AC4CDB140F93@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, why not. Or, if she were a vampire slug, it could be she wanted\nSeverian's sweet sweet blood. Or, if she were a Hierodule, perhaps her\nmission was to be his antagonist. Or, if she were a human, perhaps she was\nreally angry he executed her brother.\nThe matter I am getting at is that for this to be at all interesting it\nshould explain something *better* than the more traditional (and reasonable)\nview.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nCould explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS\nresponsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B wrote:\n\nI suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \"even if\nshe were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of\nTyphon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change\nanything as far as the story is concerned?\nMy sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a\nHierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters\nthat's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter\ninsofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot\nexplain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes < \ndanldo at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <\njohn.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, < \nbrunians at brunians.org> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<742921.56923.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T20:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1A66DF.1040304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are Agila and Agia sex robots?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features revealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though.\n\nAnd since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia looks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister.\n\nAlso, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of /Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot.\n\nPeople suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However, Severian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nCould explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \"even if she were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\n On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins\n > wrote:\n > I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n >\n > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, > wrote:\n >>\n >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n >>\n >> Agia was the girl in the box." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ea1bec84bfe28d2420d746a47bf4a48.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T21:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor's paracoita.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9ff56783ff3b6bacb5b6bbc8718691e5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T21:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It means that there's starship crew undercover on Urth.\n\nYou don't find that interesting?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \"even if\nshe were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone\nof\nTyphon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change\nanything as far as the story is concerned?\nMy sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a\nHierodule if you really want her to be. It's the behavior of the\ncharacters\nthat's important, not their creature type. That only seems to matter\ninsofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot\nexplain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n\nAgia was the girl in the box.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T21:11:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene calls robots 'chems'.\n\nDoes he call them that because they are mechanical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But\nshe was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her\nrobofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop:\n\nShe wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness,\nand as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist,\nturning the skin there to palest gold.\nTSOTT, chapter XVI\n\nDorcas is also a robot:\n\n'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a\nshirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a\nbell.\nTSOTT, chapter XXVII\n\nBells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you\nneed? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that\nhe is a robot too.\n\nBrunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.\n\nThey are ship's robots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut\nAgilus's head off.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<815b006308935e88234b4402178819fd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T21:30:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<742921.56923.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And your point?\n\nChems.\n\nNot mechs.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are Agila and Agia sex robots?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features\nrevealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though.\n\nAnd since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia\nlooks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister.\n\nAlso, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of\n/Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot.\n\nPeople suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However,\nSeverian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS\nresponsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \"even\nif she were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a\nclone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does\nthat change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that\nit doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if\nyou really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's\nimportant, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar\nas it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot\nexplain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\n On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins\n > wrote:\n > I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n >\n > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, > wrote:\n >>\n >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n >>\n >> Agia was the girl in the box." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1AA038.4050708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-17T22:22:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<815b006308935e88234b4402178819fd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The word \"robot\" should probably be abandoned completely. Wolfe's \ncharacters are simply either made or born, although there's probably an \nimportant distinction between cloned and manufactured. And the \nTranslator tells us that the word \"metal\" doesn't always mean metal.\n\nWould Severian know the difference?\n\nHowever, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and \nblood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and \nflow differently. Severian would notice.\n \nPerhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, \none a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed \ntwins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAnd your point?\n\nChems.\n\nNot mechs.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[...]\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are Agila and Agia sex robots?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features\nrevealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though.\n\nAnd since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia\nlooks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister.\n\nAlso, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of\n/Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot.\n\nPeople suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However,\nSeverian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS\nresponsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B > wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be \"even\nif she were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a\nclone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does\nthat change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that\nit doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if\nyou really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters that's\nimportant, not their creature type. That only seems to matter insofar\nas it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot\nexplain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\n On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins\n > wrote:\n > I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n >\n > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, > wrote:\n >>\n >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n >>\n >> Agia was the girl in the box.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T22:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1AA038.4050708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be a boring World if everyone agreed with me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The word \"robot\" should probably be abandoned completely. Wolfe's\ncharacters are simply either made or born, although there's probably an\nimportant distinction between cloned and manufactured. And the\nTranslator tells us that the word \"metal\" doesn't always mean metal.\n\nWould Severian know the difference?\n\nHowever, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and\nblood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and\nflow differently. Severian would notice.\n\nPerhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all,\none a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed\ntwins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And your point?\n\nChems.\n\nNot mechs.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are Agila and Agia sex robots?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features\nrevealed by decapitating Agilus. He mentions blood, though.\n\nAnd since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia\nlooks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister.\n\nAlso, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of\n/Shadow/). That would be real attention to detail in a robot.\n\nPeople suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita. However,\nSeverian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She\nIS\nresponsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be\n\"even\nif she were, what does it matter?\" The calde of Saltus /could/ be a\nclone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does\nthat change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is\nthat\nit doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if\nyou really want her to be. It's the behavior of the characters\nthat's\nimportant, not their creature type. That only seems to matter\ninsofar\nas it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot\nexplain anything? I don't think so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.\n\n On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins\n >\nwrote:\n > I'm lost. The girl in the box?\n >\n > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, > wrote:\n >>\n >> Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.\n >>\n >> Agia was the girl in the box." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-17T22:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians wrote:\nGene calls robots 'chems'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does he call them that because they are mechanical?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Chems are wonderful constructions, a race that we bios created long\nago, our own image in metal and synthetics.\"\nLOTLS, chapter seven.\n\n\"No, no.\" Maytera Marble's one functioning hand gripped the arm of her\nchair so tightly that the upholstery rose like dough between its metal\nfingers.\nEFTLL, chapter five\n\nAuk was peering at the mass of mechanisms the plate had concealed. \"I\nsee little specks of light.\"\nIncus was triumphant. \"...His primary cable has been severed, and\nthose are the ends of the fibres.\"\nCOTLS, chapter two" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-17T22:54:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not remember that reference.\n\nThanks.\n\nIt does not nullify my hypothesis.\n\nWe used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service.\n\nThat is because it is red, very much in the way blood is red.\n\nThere is a very slight difference in color.\n\nI don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as\ndifficult an act as a public execution with the attention to detail that\nSeverian brings to everything he does.\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gene calls robots 'chems'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does he call them that because they are mechanical?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Chems are wonderful constructions, a race that we bios created long\nago, our own image in metal and synthetics.\"\nLOTLS, chapter seven.\n\n\"No, no.\" Maytera Marble's one functioning hand gripped the arm of her\nchair so tightly that the upholstery rose like dough between its metal\nfingers.\nEFTLL, chapter five\n\nAuk was peering at the mass of mechanisms the plate had concealed. \"I\nsee little specks of light.\"\nIncus was triumphant. \"...His primary cable has been severed, and\nthose are the ends of the fibres.\"\nCOTLS, chapter two\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<324527.37514.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T04:11:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \n[quotations on chems from BotLS]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did not remember that reference.\n\nThanks.\n\nIt does not " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "nullify my hypothesis.\n\nHere are two more:\n\n\"'It's not just reuniting the metal, Patera. There are little tubes in \nthere, tiny tubes, and wires, and things like threads--fibers, they're \ncalled--that pipe light.'\"\n\nEftLS, Ch. 2\n\n\"... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's] now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an \nelderly woman. A short cylinder of silvery metal extended from its \nwrist. 'I lost some fluid,' she told him, 'but not very much. There are valves and things to control that....\"\n\n[Marble holds her stump up. Swallow tells her] \"'Pretend that you're \ngoing to grab hold of my nose.'\n\n\"Minute glimmerings appeared in the shadowy interior of the stump of \narm, pinpoint gleams....\"\n\nEftLS, Ch. 7\n\nI think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain. If Agilus were a chem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in metal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers, not flesh and bone. This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would surely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck.\n\nMaybe there was another kind of robot. But I doubt very much someone would make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut, but with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service.\n\nThat is because it is red, very \nmuch in the way blood is red.\n\nThere is a very slight difference " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in color.\n\nThe fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg with an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as\ndifficult an act as a public execution with the \nattention to detail that\nSeverian brings to everything he does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done beheading feels to the headsman. I take that to mean he felt nothing different about Agilus's head. And see below.\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and \nblood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and \nflow differently. Severian would notice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He also cleans his boots. By that time the blood would have at least started to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell, since he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution. He must have cleaned /Terminus Est/, too.\n\nAlso, the blood frightened the baggage sumpter (presumably a horse), which would have been by smell, not color." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, \none a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed \ntwins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a sexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister.\n\nNo, I don't believe it. And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone. He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.\n\nIt's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have this theory in mind. \"Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh.\" (/Claw/, C. VIII) There are a couple other examples like that.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6EF719D8-3C09-4F2D-8756-F67DA969C9E8@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T05:34:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<324527.37514.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or what about:\n\nAgilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone.\n\nAlso, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and strange maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down Severian's orichalk?\n\n\"When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know.\"\n\n\nOr the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face?\n\n\"Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them.\"\n\n\"He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before.\"\n\nIt's all probably trivial for some, but I find these two characters unsettlingly important to the series for some reason, and wish I could better understand their weirdness.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \n[quotations on chems from BotLS]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did not remember that reference.\n\nThanks.\n\nIt does not \nnullify my hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here are two more:\n\n\"'It's not just reuniting the metal, Patera. There are little tubes in \nthere, tiny tubes, and wires, and things like threads--fibers, they're \ncalled--that pipe light.'\"\n\nEftLS, Ch. 2\n\n\"... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's] now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an \nelderly woman. A short cylinder of silvery metal extended from its \nwrist. 'I lost some fluid,' she told him, 'but not very much. There are valves and things to control that....\"\n\n[Marble holds her stump up. Swallow tells her] \"'Pretend that you're \ngoing to grab hold of my nose.'\n\n\"Minute glimmerings appeared in the shadowy interior of the stump of \narm, pinpoint gleams....\"\n\nEftLS, Ch. 7\n\nI think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain. If Agilus were a chem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in metal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers, not flesh and bone. This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would surely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck.\n\nMaybe there was another kind of robot. But I doubt very much someone would make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut, but with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service.\n\nThat is because it is red, very \nmuch in the way blood is red.\n\nThere is a very slight difference \nin color." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg with an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as\ndifficult an act as a public execution with the \nattention to detail that\nSeverian brings to everything he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done beheading feels to the headsman. I take that to mean he felt nothing different about Agilus's head. And see below.\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and \nblood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and \nflow differently. Severian would notice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He also cleans his boots. By that time the blood would have at least started to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell, since he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution. He must have cleaned /Terminus Est/, too.\n\nAlso, the blood frightened the baggage sumpter (presumably a horse), which would have been by smell, not color." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, \none a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed \ntwins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a sexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister.\n\nNo, I don't believe it. And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone. He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.\n\nIt's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have this theory in mind. \"Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh.\" (/Claw/, C. VIII) There are a couple other examples like that.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B189E.9070305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T06:56:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<6EF719D8-3C09-4F2D-8756-F67DA969C9E8@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/18/2010 12:34 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOr what about:\n\nAgilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby \nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and\nstrange\nmaplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down\nSeverian's orichalk?\n\n\"When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt\nwith its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It\nmight have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it\nwas wreathed with letters I did not know.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sounds very much like some folk magic, suggesting Agia is part of a \nmystery cult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined\nheads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together\nface-to-face?\n\n\"Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar\nbout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her\nlong, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to\nunite them.\"\n\n\"He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in\nthe narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an\naureole a few moments before.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The aureaole is the scattering of the bright sunlight by someone's \nbacklit hair, giving a halo effect. Here is a similar effect with a kitty:\n\nhttp://media.photobucket.com/image/backlit%20afro/caitlinjean/backlit-1.jpg\n\nhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/29jlag7" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T07:34:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<324527.37514.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She lost some fluid.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \n[quotations on chems from BotLS]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did not remember that reference.\n\nThanks.\n\nIt does not\nnullify my hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here are two more:\n\n\"'It's not just reuniting the metal, Patera. There are little tubes in\nthere, tiny tubes, and wires, and things like threads--fibers, they're\ncalled--that pipe light.'\"\n\nEftLS, Ch. 2\n\n\"... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's]\nnow-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an\nelderly woman. A short cylinder of silvery metal extended from its\nwrist. 'I lost some fluid,' she told him, 'but not very much. There are\nvalves and things to control that....\"\n\n[Marble holds her stump up. Swallow tells her] \"'Pretend that you're\ngoing to grab hold of my nose.'\n\n\"Minute glimmerings appeared in the shadowy interior of the stump of\narm, pinpoint gleams....\"\n\nEftLS, Ch. 7\n\nI think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain. If Agilus were a\nchem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in\nmetal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers,\nnot flesh and bone. This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would\nsurely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck.\n\nMaybe there was another kind of robot. But I doubt very much someone\nwould make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut,\nbut with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the\nservice.\n\nThat is because it is red, very\nmuch in the way blood is red.\n\nThere is a very slight difference\nin color." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg\nwith an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as\ndifficult an act as a public execution with the\nattention to detail that\nSeverian brings to everything he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done\nbeheading feels to the headsman. I take that to mean he felt nothing\ndifferent about Agilus's head. And see below.\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and\nblood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and\nflow differently. Severian would notice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He also cleans his boots. By that time the blood would have at least\nstarted to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell,\nsince he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution. He must\nhave cleaned /Terminus Est/, too.\n\nAlso, the blood frightened the baggage sumpter (presumably a horse), which\nwould have been by smell, not color." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all,\none a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed\ntwins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a\nsexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister.\n\nNo, I don't believe it. And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's\nhead hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone. He said\nit sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.\n\nIt's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have\nthis theory in mind. \"Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare\nshoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh.\"\n(/Claw/, C. VIII) There are a couple other examples like that.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T07:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B189E.9070305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wilson, be courteous to Mr Dunn.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/18/2010 12:34 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOr what about:\n\nAgilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and\nstrange\nmaplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down\nSeverian's orichalk?\n\n\"When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt\nwith its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It\nmight have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it\nwas wreathed with letters I did not know.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This sounds very much like some folk magic, suggesting Agia is part of a\nmystery cult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined\nheads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together\nface-to-face?\n\n\"Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar\nbout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her\nlong, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to\nunite them.\"\n\n\"He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in\n > the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an\n > aureole a few moments before.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The aureaole is the scattering of the bright sunlight by someone's\nbacklit hair, giving a halo effect. Here is a similar effect with a kitty:\n\nhttp://media.photobucket.com/image/backlit%20afro/caitlinjean/backlit-1.jpg\n\nhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/29jlag7\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Lewin", "address": "mark at marklewin.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T08:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... or because they are chemical?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:11 PM, wrote:\n\nGene calls robots 'chems'.\n\nDoes he call them that because they are mechanical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But\nshe was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her\nrobofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop:\n\nShe wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness,\nand as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist,\nturning the skin there to palest gold.\nTSOTT, chapter XVI\n\nDorcas is also a robot:\n\n'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a\nshirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a\nbell.\nTSOTT, chapter XXVII\n\nBells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you\nneed? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that\nhe is a robot too.\n\nBrunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.\n\nThey are ship's robots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut\nAgilus's head off.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<510220fcf6c98c40756dbee90b5698ae.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T08:22:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I was thinking.\n\nSince then there have been several posts showing that at least some of\nthem have some mechanical parts.\n\nI don't think that Agia and Agilus, if they are robots, are the same as\nJonas, who was given human spare parts. They would have been crafted to be\nas they are.\n\nThe theory, which I still like, is indeed getting a bit convoluted.\n\nI will certainly talk about it with Gene if and when I get another chance\nto do so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... or because they are chemical?\n\n\nOn Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gene calls robots 'chems'.\n\nDoes he call them that because they are mechanical?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But\nshe was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her\nrobofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop:\n\nShe wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness,\nand as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist,\nturning the skin there to palest gold.\nTSOTT, chapter XVI\n\nDorcas is also a robot:\n\n'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a\nshirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a\nbell.\nTSOTT, chapter XXVII\n\nBells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you\nneed? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that\nhe is a robot too.\n\nBrunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.\n\nThey are ship's robots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut\nAgilus's head off.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B32C6.5030907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T08:48:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:\n... or because they are chemical?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a \nchemical process." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T08:57:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B32C6.5030907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever.\n\nI think this theory is gaining and not losing strength.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... or because they are chemical?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a\nchemical process.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Lewin", "address": "mark at marklewin.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T09:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't help but think of Ted Chiang's excellent short story 'Exhalation' in\nrelation to this, which is available online here:\n\nhttp://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Ted%20Chiang.pdf.\n\n\" 'Exhalation' is an evocative story of an all-metal world, its\nargon-breathing inhabitants, and a scientist who performs the ultimate\nself-examination. \"\n\nMark" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:57 AM, wrote:\nSo they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever.\n\nI think this theory is gaining and not losing strength." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B64C0.6060409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T12:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<324527.37514.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, naturally he doesn't say it sounds \"metallic.\" And you're right that it doesn't ring. But what else could \"sharp\" mean? Why not then \"as sharp as the tap of a carpenter's mallet on a block of oak\"? Why not \"the thud of an ax stroke in the forest\"?\n\nSkulls are rigid bags of blood and brain. I haven't done any testing, but they can't sound anywhere near as sharp as a mason's hammer hitting stone. Not when hitting anything. Ever. The attack and decay are going to be completely different. Unless perhaps the bone breaks, and then there will be a wet crack. Is Agia then an alien who can break her skull and heal in seconds?\n\nWhat other function could the description serve? It could mean Agia really got a knock---and indeed she buckled. But then she wept---she didn't pass out or gush brains.\n\nAlso, the evidence from Long Sun is important but has to be treated as circumstantial: (1) only Severian's descriptions of robots really count, otherwise it's apples vs oranges, because his worldview is profoundly different from Silk/Horn's (2) the technology is not necessarily the same and in some cases may be objectively different. \n\nAgain, both books can be seen as long exercises in deliberately obscured character shapeshifting. We have the inhumi, dreamwalking, eidolons, Jonas, Jolenta, Maytera Marble, Baldanders, passing from life to death and back again, and on and on. For a passage like this to signify nothing would be a grave mistake.\n\n\n.............................................................................................................\nNo, I don't believe it. And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone. He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.\n\nIt's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have this theory in mind. \"Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh.\" (/Claw/, C. VIII) There are a couple other examples like that.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T12:24:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B189E.9070305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this better, dude? :)\n\nTo your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.\n\nThe folk magic angle would play nicely with the aep-men in the mines, I guess.\n\nAnd @brunians, I agree That Agia and Agilus are different from Jonas if they are indeed robotic.\n\nIn any case, I just don't feel like they are humans, that's as simple as I can state it. Something far too \"off\" about them both.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B662F.3090802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T12:27:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<6EF719D8-3C09-4F2D-8756-F67DA969C9E8@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had forgotten about the scrawl. But Agia and Agilus' relationship is \ndefinitely depicted as holy and (tw)incestuous. They are indeed \nextremely important characters.\n\nThey may of course not be twins or siblings at all.\n\nThey may be anything at all.\n\nBut their relationship is holy and sexual and their bodies show zero \ndimorphism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOr what about:\n\nAgilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone.\n\nAlso, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and strange maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down Severian's orichalk?\n\n\"When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know.\"\n\n\nOr the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face?\n\n\"Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them.\"\n\n\"He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before.\"\n\nIt's all probably trivial for some, but I find these two characters unsettlingly important to the series for some reason, and wish I could better understand their weirdness.\n\n...ryan\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B68B3.7040509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T12:38:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B189E.9070305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a little baffled by this. Of course there is a natural explanation \nfor the aureole---what would you expect?\n\nPerhaps \"At that moment I realized that Agia and Agilus were holy in \ntheir unity, because they wore a halo like that of the saints in my \nlittle book. They were like gods. I kneeled to them and prayed and said \na few Hail Maries for good measure\"?\n\nDoes Severian also describe every natural phenomenon he sees?\n\n\"Chapter XVII: The sky seemed to be releasing a liquid very much like \nwater. Was it in fact rain?\"\n\n\"Chapter XXI: The sun covered the ground with a substance very much like \nthe light I used to see during the day when I was a boy.\"\n\n\"Chapter XXII: The substance I breathed into my lungs as I walked to \nSaltus seemed like a familiar mix of breathable gases.\"\n\nI could go on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOr the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined\nheads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together\nface-to-face?\n\n\"Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar\nbout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her\nlong, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to\nunite them.\"\n\n\"He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in\nthe narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an\naureole a few moments before.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The aureaole is the scattering of the bright sunlight by someone's \nbacklit hair, giving a halo effect. Here is a similar effect with a \nkitty:\n\nhttp://media.photobucket.com/image/backlit%20afro/caitlinjean/backlit-1.jpg \n\n\nhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/29jlag7" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B7A59.1090406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T13:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without \nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of \nrobots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. \nThus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"\n\nHe faced this problem with Long Sun, where robotness was known and \naccepted as part of what is not hidden (the local world created by the \nlocal archon).\n\nWith New Sun, he did not face this problem, because he said instead, \"I \nwill not refer to robots at all; they are hidden.\" On Urth, they are \npart of the Outside, not the Inside.\n\nAnd yet both universes are full of robots, half-robots, future robots, \nformer robots, humans on their way to becoming robots/robots becoming \nhumans. Perhaps the halo around Agia and Agilus is a blessing of a union \nbetween bot and human as much as man and woman.\n\nFurthermore, I read robots as being almost blasphemous in their \nunnaturalness, plainly the work of an inferior Creator, although not at \nall evil. It's a small step from there to sexbots, which are already \navailable in Japan.\n\n(In fact, I can't think of anything more perfectly blasphemous than a \npair of sexy male/female twins mating and creating a race of superbots. \nDr Who would have stopped them in the nick of time; Severian would kill \nthem. Perhaps Severian's story is in part a record of his stopping \nvarious potential future histories so that only one remains.)\n\nRecall that Tolkien made a big deal of explaining that Sauron and his \npredecessor could not create life, only twist it.\n\nBrunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSo they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever.\n\nI think this theory is gaining and not losing strength.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "... or because they are chemical?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a\nchemical process.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<448189.38660.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T14:25:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B7A59.1090406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nI'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "....\n\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak for, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch. XXX).\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T14:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you, Ryan.\n\nI like my idea that Agia was Hethor's paracoita, and that Agilus was\nsomething like that - a paracoitus.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this better, dude? :)\n\nTo your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty\nphoto, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are\nnamed after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.\n\nThe folk magic angle would play nicely with the aep-men in the mines, I\nguess.\n\nAnd @brunians, I agree That Agia and Agilus are different from Jonas if\nthey are indeed robotic.\n\nIn any case, I just don't feel like they are humans, that's as simple as I\ncan state it. Something far too \"off\" about them both.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T14:36:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B7A59.1090406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita.\n\nI think it's where he's trying to become Severian's assistant.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without\nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of\nrobots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche.\nThus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"\n\nHe faced this problem with Long Sun, where robotness was known and\naccepted as part of what is not hidden (the local world created by the\nlocal archon).\n\nWith New Sun, he did not face this problem, because he said instead, \"I\nwill not refer to robots at all; they are hidden.\" On Urth, they are\npart of the Outside, not the Inside.\n\nAnd yet both universes are full of robots, half-robots, future robots,\nformer robots, humans on their way to becoming robots/robots becoming\nhumans. Perhaps the halo around Agia and Agilus is a blessing of a union\nbetween bot and human as much as man and woman.\n\nFurthermore, I read robots as being almost blasphemous in their\nunnaturalness, plainly the work of an inferior Creator, although not at\nall evil. It's a small step from there to sexbots, which are already\navailable in Japan.\n\n(In fact, I can't think of anything more perfectly blasphemous than a\npair of sexy male/female twins mating and creating a race of superbots.\nDr Who would have stopped them in the nick of time; Severian would kill\nthem. Perhaps Severian's story is in part a record of his stopping\nvarious potential future histories so that only one remains.)\n\nRecall that Tolkien made a big deal of explaining that Sauron and his\npredecessor could not create life, only twist it.\n\nBrunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever.\n\nI think this theory is gaining and not losing strength.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "... or because they are chemical?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a\nchemical process.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<146890342c4166aedd307bd760117ed9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T14:36:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B7A59.1090406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita.\n\nI think it's where he's trying to become Severian's assistant.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without\nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of\nrobots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche.\nThus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"\n\nHe faced this problem with Long Sun, where robotness was known and\naccepted as part of what is not hidden (the local world created by the\nlocal archon).\n\nWith New Sun, he did not face this problem, because he said instead, \"I\nwill not refer to robots at all; they are hidden.\" On Urth, they are\npart of the Outside, not the Inside.\n\nAnd yet both universes are full of robots, half-robots, future robots,\nformer robots, humans on their way to becoming robots/robots becoming\nhumans. Perhaps the halo around Agia and Agilus is a blessing of a union\nbetween bot and human as much as man and woman.\n\nFurthermore, I read robots as being almost blasphemous in their\nunnaturalness, plainly the work of an inferior Creator, although not at\nall evil. It's a small step from there to sexbots, which are already\navailable in Japan.\n\n(In fact, I can't think of anything more perfectly blasphemous than a\npair of sexy male/female twins mating and creating a race of superbots.\nDr Who would have stopped them in the nick of time; Severian would kill\nthem. Perhaps Severian's story is in part a record of his stopping\nvarious potential future histories so that only one remains.)\n\nRecall that Tolkien made a big deal of explaining that Sauron and his\npredecessor could not create life, only twist it.\n\nBrunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever.\n\nI think this theory is gaining and not losing strength.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:13 AM, Mark Lewin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "... or because they are chemical?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a\nchemical process.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T14:38:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well nobody is questioning the fact that Agia was to be with Hethor, right? That is pretty well stated in the text.\n\nWe're now trying to find out what the eff is up with her tinny head snapping against the wall beneath those abundant locks of hair.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 10:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI agree with you, Ryan.\n\nI like my idea that Agia was Hethor's paracoita, and that Agilus was\nsomething like that - a paracoitus." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T14:53:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me.\"\n\n(Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night)\n\n.\n\nAnd it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages....\n\n.\n\n\"Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him.\"\n\n(Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens)\n\n.\n\n\"Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner.\"\n\n(Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus)\n\n.\n\n\"...you were trying to kill me before Saltus.\"\n\n\"With the avern. Yes, of course.\"\n\n\"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is.\"\n\nI waited for her to reply, but she said nothing.\n\n\"On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and a little money coming in from the shop.\"\n\nIt was my turn to be surprised. She said, \"I should have gone to him and mastered him. I have mastered him now.\"\n\n(Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 10:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B8BB0.4050100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:07:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<448189.38660.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you \nsee, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her \ni-irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole \nbeds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that \nflesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own \nscopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took \nher! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the \nlemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay \nwith me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited \nall day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she \nmight smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little \nhands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin \nhad she not chosen instead to lie with me. . . . \"\n\n\ngenicon\n(Adult / Slang)\nMy only source for this word is from K . \nS. Daly's * Sex. An Encyclopedia for the Bewildered * (1995): ' A sexual \npartner imagined by a woman \n who is no longer satisfied with her \nreal partner .'\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n(Noun) also as a succubus-real imagined lover. an hallucinated sexual \npartner\n\n/Scopolagna/: “A woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the \nextreme” (GW).\n\nDoll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible \nto say.\n\nAs for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not \nnuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "....\n\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak for, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch. XXX).\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8150A36C-8524-478B-ADB3-DFE343A13EDB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:12:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B8BB0.4050100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia.\n\nAgia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters, when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say.\n\nAs for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B8EE9.6090706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:21:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't make Agia Hethor's doll. He is missing his doll and would \nno doubt accept a replacement, not caring whether it is flesh or \nsynthetic, but probably preferring synthetic.\n\nBut given another Wolfean principle, Conservation of Characters, it \nmakes sense. Agia knows about Hethor's powers and does what she needs to \ndo to control him. However, if she laid in his box before she mastered \nhim ... then she was not under her own control on the Quasar.\n\nSo we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found, \nbut she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who \n\"woke\" her? Agilus?\n\nThis is a whole space opera subplot in itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me.\"\n\n(Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night)\n\n.\n\nAnd it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages....\n\n.\n\n\"Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him.\"\n\n(Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens)\n\n.\n\n\"Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner.\"\n\n(Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus)\n\n.\n\n\"...you were trying to kill me before Saltus.\"\n\n\"With the avern. Yes, of course.\"\n\n\"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is.\"\n\nI waited for her to reply, but she said nothing.\n\n\"On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and a little money coming in from the shop.\"\n\nIt was my turn to be surprised. She said, \"I should have gone to him and mastered him. I have mastered him now.\"\n\n(Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\n...ryan\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B8FEC.5030608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:25:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<8150A36C-8524-478B-ADB3-DFE343A13EDB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled \nher with monsters.\n\nAnyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't \nsee why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita.\n\nPossibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to \nevade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nYou know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia.\n\nAgia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters, when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say.\n\nAs for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B1C4E39-3616-404A-A77A-3B36A391EE73@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:31:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B8FEC.5030608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess it just sounds much less slavish how she knows Hethor, whereas he describes her as a sex slave in a lemonwood box who got loose.\n\nCould go either way, since his toy HAS gone missing. And she does say she mastered him in the text.\n\nSpace opera sub-plot is RIGHT!\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAh, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled her with monsters.\n\nAnyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't see why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita.\n\nPossibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to evade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color." } ] }, { "message_id": "<36006D71-A703-4BE6-AB12-C541923ADD88@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:44:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B8EE9.6090706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More evidence to ponder, and arguments to make for both sides of the argument of whather Agia was brought from the Quasar where she waited in a Lemonwood box without sleeping. Does she ever sleep in Severian's recount?\n\n.\n\n\"I thought you had only promised yourself to him, if he would kill me.\"\n\n\"I have promised him that and many other things, and so mastered him. He is ahead of you, Severian, waiting word from me.\"\n\n\"With more of his beasts? Thank you for the warning. That was it, wasn't it? He had threatened you and Agilus with the pets he had brought from other spheres.\"\n\nShe nodded. \"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them.\"\n\n\"I know,\" I said. \"Jonas told me.\"\n\n\"After I learned that you would kill Agilus, I went to him. He is iron- strong in some ways, weak in many others. If I had withheld my body I could have done nothing with him, but I did all the queer things he wished me to, and made him believe I love him. Now he will do anything I ask. He followed you for me after you killed Agilus; with his silver I hired the men you killed at the old mine, and the creatures he commands will kill you for me yet, if I don't do it here myself.\"\n\n(Agia and Severian on Hethor in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nBut she is abnormally strong, as Severan observes here...\n\n.\n\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel.\n\nThe very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman? The paragraph opens explaining how \"women\" hold a blade. At first you assume Agia's assassin hold just makes her not a proverbial \"woman\". But then when he says her strength betrayed here, you're all like HUH?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSo we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found, but she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who \"woke\" her? Agilus?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4544ee841cfdabf411a1594c8e120882.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:46:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sex doll got on top.\n\nKinky!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see,\na genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i-\nirises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole\nbeds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that\nflesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own\nscopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her!\nCrush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood\nbox I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all\nnight, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day,\nwatch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile\nwhen I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like\nd-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not\nchosen instead to lie with me.\"\n\n(Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night)\n\n.\n\nAnd it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages....\n\n.\n\n\"Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my\narms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I\nhave no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old\nsailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him.\"\n\n(Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens)\n\n.\n\n\"Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow,\nand shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted\nher to do it sooner.\"\n\n(Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus)\n\n.\n\n\"...you were trying to kill me before Saltus.\"\n\n\"With the avern. Yes, of course.\"\n\n\"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is.\"\n\nI waited for her to reply, but she said nothing.\n\n\"On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to\nlive with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not\nunderstand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer\nwhen you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and\na little money coming in from the shop.\"\n\nIt was my turn to be surprised. She said, \"I should have gone to him and\nmastered him. I have mastered him now.\"\n\n(Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\n...ryan\n\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 10:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<70141f51fb8c6cf4d984e908490dde0e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B8BB0.4050100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What color are Agia's eyes?\n\nAre her hands ever mentioned?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you\nsee, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her\ni-irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole\nbeds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that\nflesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own\nscopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took\nher! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the\nlemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay\nwith me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited\nall day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she\nmight smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little\nhands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin\nhad she not chosen instead to lie with me. . . . \"\n\n\ngenicon\n(Adult / Slang)\nMy only source for this word is from K .\nS. Daly's * Sex. An Encyclopedia for the Bewildered * (1995): ' A sexual\npartner imagined by a woman\n who is no longer satisfied with her\nreal partner .'\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n(Noun) also as a succubus-real imagined lover. an hallucinated sexual\npartner\n\n/Scopolagna/: “A woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the\nextreme” (GW).\n\nDoll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible\nto say.\n\nAs for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not\nnuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).\n\n\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without\nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This\nruns against the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....\n\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is\nelectrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long\nSun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak\nfor, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch.\nXXX).\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63073cb61fd77d6f97712e7daf7b7a49.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:55:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<8150A36C-8524-478B-ADB3-DFE343A13EDB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia lies all the time.\n\nDo you think she wants to admit she was a sex doll in front of her allies?\n\nI don't remember Agia's eye color being mentioned.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had\nirises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia.\n\nAgia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters,\nwhen he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible\nto say.\n\nAs for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not\nnuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<775166a801a8cb8388977a340fa0d914.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:58:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B8EE9.6090706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know who woke her, but this is what I currently think.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This doesn't make Agia Hethor's doll. He is missing his doll and would\nno doubt accept a replacement, not caring whether it is flesh or\nsynthetic, but probably preferring synthetic.\n\nBut given another Wolfean principle, Conservation of Characters, it\nmakes sense. Agia knows about Hethor's powers and does what she needs to\ndo to control him. However, if she laid in his box before she mastered\nhim ... then she was not under her own control on the Quasar.\n\nSo we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found,\nbut she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who\n\"woke\" her? Agilus?\n\nThis is a whole space opera subplot in itself.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you\nsee, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her\ni- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master,\nwhole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes,\nthat flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own\nscopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took\nher! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the\nlemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay\nwith me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited\nall day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she\nmight smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little\nhands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin\nhad she not chosen instead to lie with me.\"\n\n(Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night)\n\n.\n\nAnd it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following\npassages....\n\n.\n\n\"Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are\nmy arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume\nI have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an\nold sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him.\"\n\n(Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens)\n\n.\n\n\"Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead\ntomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else.\nI wanted her to do it sooner.\"\n\n(Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus)\n\n.\n\n\"...you were trying to kill me before Saltus.\"\n\n\"With the avern. Yes, of course.\"\n\n\"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is.\"\n\nI waited for her to reply, but she said nothing.\n\n\"On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you\nto live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not\nunderstand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer\nwhen you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you,\nand a little money coming in from the shop.\"\n\nIt was my turn to be surprised. She said, \"I should have gone to him and\nmastered him. I have mastered him now.\"\n\n(Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<30C27CB3-D1A8-406D-93B5-E349FC8FF1A5@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:59:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<70141f51fb8c6cf4d984e908490dde0e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them.\"\n\n.\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her.\"\n\n(SotT, various)\n\n.\n\nI always pictured her as Asian. Consistent with the 80's sex doll subculture, I guess.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhat color are Agia's eyes?\n\nAre her hands ever mentioned?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B97F1.7020902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T15:59:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<36006D71-A703-4BE6-AB12-C541923ADD88@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the\nproverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from\nbelow, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to\nblock her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to\nshow a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up\nbeing counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous \nposition. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, \nI'm no anglo." } ] }, { "message_id": "<913ce3e6928dc7af97f27c8f04c2d053.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:04:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<30C27CB3-D1A8-406D-93B5-E349FC8FF1A5@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Evidence against, or a mask, or ...\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the\nelongated brown eyes that often accompany them.\"\n\n.\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like\nher brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and\ndelicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her.\"\n\n(SotT, various)\n\n.\n\nI always pictured her as Asian. Consistent with the 80's sex doll\nsubculture, I guess.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What color are Agia's eyes?\n\nAre her hands ever mentioned?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<778766.76070.qm@smtp820.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B97F1.7020902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 16:59 18/06/2010, Pedro wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the\nproverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from\nbelow, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to\nblock her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to\nshow a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up\nbeing counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a \ndisavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, \nat least. I don't know, I'm no anglo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is my reading -- because her blow was so strong, her knife got \ncaught in the wood and so Severian was able to wrench it from her \ngrasp. (And I am an anglo :-)\n\nA few paras above this, she says that she and Agilus \"were the same \nflesh\", which would be a strange expression for a purported robot -- \neven a lying one.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B9E35.4090707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<2B1C4E39-3616-404A-A77A-3B36A391EE73@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think now it makes perfect sense. Hethor describes a pliant slave. She \nsays she mastered him---previously, she had not mastered him---she was \nnot the master. She could have been nothing, per her story to Severian, \nbut she says she \"should have mastered him.\" There was a \"before\" before \nHethor pursued her as a suitor.\n\n(She could even be changing \"Hethor chased me with monsters whom I slew\" \nto \"I am just a poor girl with only a dirty old sailor as a suitor. He \nwishes to marry me but I spoke a word and now he is my puppy.\" Wolfe \ncharacters have divergent perspectives that direct their speech in \nreference to identical events. In this case, it's a clash of genres: \nsci-fi vs picaresque.)\n\nTherefore they are the same. What changed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI guess it just sounds much less slavish how she knows Hethor, whereas he describes her as a sex slave in a lemonwood box who got loose.\n\nCould go either way, since his toy HAS gone missing. And she does say she mastered him in the text.\n\nSpace opera sub-plot is RIGHT!\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled her with monsters.\n\nAnyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't see why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita.\n\nPossibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to evade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1B9F32.6060406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:30:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<36006D71-A703-4BE6-AB12-C541923ADD88@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Below..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nMore evidence to ponder, and arguments to make for both sides of the argument of whather Agia was brought from the Quasar where she waited in a Lemonwood box without sleeping. Does she ever sleep in Severian's recount?\n\n.\n\n\"I thought you had only promised yourself to him, if he would kill me.\"\n\n\"I have promised him that and many other things, and so mastered him. He is ahead of you, Severian, waiting word from me.\"\n\n\"With more of his beasts? Thank you for the warning. That was it, wasn't it? He had threatened you and Agilus with the pets he had brought from other spheres.\"\n\nShe nodded. \"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them.\"\n\n\"I know,\" I said. \"Jonas told me.\"\n\n\"After I learned that you would kill Agilus, I went to him. He is iron- strong in some ways, weak in many others. If I had withheld my body I could have done nothing with him, but I did all the queer things he wished me to, and made him believe I love him. Now he will do anything I ask. He followed you for me after you killed Agilus; with his silver I hired the men you killed at the old mine, and the creatures he commands will kill you for me yet, if I don't do it here myself.\"\n\n(Agia and Severian on Hethor in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia is not necessarily lying. Hethor may have used a pretext to pursue \nher; she may have opened the shop to catch him, since sailors probably \nfrequent pawns hops and such." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".\n\nBut she is abnormally strong, as Severan observes here...\n\n.\n\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel.\n\nThe very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman? The paragraph opens explaining how \"women\" hold a blade. At first you assume Agia's assassin hold just makes her not a proverbial \"woman\". But then when he says her strength betrayed here, you're all like HUH?\n\n...ryan\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Wolfe-speak, this means \"Agia is a man.\" Or at least, \"Agia is not a \nwoman.\"\n\nWhich? Agilus or sexbot?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B9E35.4090707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, going with this logic. Where does Agilus come into play. Did she alter her appearance to match Agia's after she escaped her lemonwood box?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTherefore they are the same. What changed?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BA0BC.40009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:37:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<63073cb61fd77d6f97712e7daf7b7a49.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only that. It's just not something you'd say in Nessus.\n\nIt would be like starting a conversation in the checkout line about how \nyou just got off a starship and the prices were really good here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAgia lies all the time.\n\nDo you think she wants to admit she was a sex doll in front of her allies?\n\nI don't remember Agia's eye color being mentioned.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had\nirises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia.\n\nAgia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters,\nwhen he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible\nto say.\n\nAs for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not\nnuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BA2BE.5020708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<30C27CB3-D1A8-406D-93B5-E349FC8FF1A5@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be typical of Wolfe to hint that two characters are the same, \nthen stamp NOT THE SAME on them, and then make the explanation for why \nthey are the same anyway be the essence and purpose of the character.\n\nRiddle: \"I am a hottie who can change her eye color. What am I?\"\n\nI'd guess she can change her sex, too. Why build a sexbot that is only \none gender? How inefficient. Could she not then also make herself \nresemble someone? A recent post commented that Agilus would have been \nbankrupted by purchasing a sexbot that looked like him. But that's not \nthe only possible explanation.\n\nPerhaps the sex doll found a protector in Agilus, as Severian actually \nstates, then made herself look like Agilus because that's what he's into.\n\nDo we have a theory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\"She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them.\"\n\n.\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her.\"\n\n(SotT, various)\n\n.\n\nI always pictured her as Asian. Consistent with the 80's sex doll subculture, I guess.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What color are Agia's eyes?\n\nAre her hands ever mentioned?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BA2FA.5000707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:46:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B97F1.7020902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. If Sev was then able to disarm her because of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the\nproverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from\nbelow, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to\nblock her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the \nwood to\nshow a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up\nbeing counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous \nposition. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't \nknow, I'm no anglo.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BA3B3.7010207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:49:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<778766.76070.qm@smtp820.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it would be not at all strange for a robot who had to believe she \nwas Agilus' sister in order to be Agilus' sister. If she made herself \nlike him, curve for curve, color for color, then that is a precise and \npoetic way of stating it---especially from her perspective.\n\nSee \"Jahlee.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 16:59 18/06/2010, Pedro wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the\nproverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart \nfrom\nbelow, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to\nblock her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the \nwood to\nshow a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up\nbeing counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous \nposition. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I \ndon't know, I'm no anglo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is my reading -- because her blow was so strong, her knife got \ncaught in the wood and so Severian was able to wrench it from her \ngrasp. (And I am an anglo :-)\n\nA few paras above this, she says that she and Agilus \"were the same \nflesh\", which would be a strange expression for a purported robot -- \neven a lying one.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6F357DDC-786A-45FC-8C3B-1BB454062421@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B97F1.7020902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm...\n\nI can't help but think that he was explaining the difference between Agia and other women in this passage. And that the strength of her blow sort of sealed the deal for him, and betrayed that she is something more than woman. And not just assassin, I don't think. He already knew that fairly well, with more than three attempts on his life on her hands (oh those soft, delicate hands!).\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the\nproverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from\nbelow, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to\nblock her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to\nshow a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up\nbeing counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BA3C9.9020605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T16:50:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are ahead of me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo, going with this logic. Where does Agilus come into play. Did she alter her appearance to match Agia's after she escaped her lemonwood box?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 12:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Therefore they are the same. What changed?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BB20D.4040700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T17:51:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<6F357DDC-786A-45FC-8C3B-1BB454062421@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So \nit's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female \nassassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since \nWolfe probably made up the \"proverb,\" it was with a purpose, and there \nare no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. \n(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)\n\nThe theory requires either that a sex doll be strong or that a strong \nrobot can be a sex doll.\n\nEither that a sex doll is capable of close combat or that a fighting \nrobot can be a sex doll.\n\nEither that a sex doll that can be whatever her partner wants her to be \ncan be an assassin, or that an assassin can be whatever her target needs \nher to be.\n\nIs Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for \nHethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, \nor is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous? Either way, what \nchanged? How did she get control of Hethor? or did she?\n\nAs an aside, it's remarkable how this discussion has begun to resemble \nthat for AEG, where characters almost openly adopt disguises and deal in \nidentity deception, and where a play is actually part of the plot. I \nalways assumed New Sun characters were more stable than they appear to \nme now. But then I never figured out the Silk vs Horn thing either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nHmm...\n\nI can't help but think that he was explaining the difference between Agia and other women in this passage. And that the strength of her blow sort of sealed the deal for him, and betrayed that she is something more than woman. And not just assassin, I don't think. He already knew that fairly well, with more than three attempts on his life on her hands (oh those soft, delicate hands!).\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the\nproverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from\nbelow, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to\nblock her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to\nshow a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her.\"\n\n(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)\n\n.\n\nThe strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up\nbeing counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T18:08:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BB20D.4040700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or did Agilus have something to say about changing her from submissive sex kitten to dominatrix with some manly qualities?\n\nAnd perhaps (or instead) this was motivated by getting back at Hethor, mastering him, as it were?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 1:51 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIs Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for Hethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, or is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BC1B5.40302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T18:57:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who \nactually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as \nhaving been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of \nher physical makeup.\n\nHere's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? \nDoes she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know \nwhether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even \nallows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that \nsurvived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between \nA/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a \nbit of the Outsider leaking in.\n\nAnother thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and \nAgilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time \ntravel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if \nthey want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, \nsince she can reverse direction and return to him.\n\nIf Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like \nAgilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back \nto when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, \nor could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of \nyears to his thirty or so.\n\nStop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOr did Agilus have something to say about changing her from submissive sex kitten to dominatrix with some manly qualities?\n\nAnd perhaps (or instead) this was motivated by getting back at Hethor, mastering him, as it were?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 1:51 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for Hethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, or is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<311585F1-22C0-4306-8809-7D039B4C3713@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T19:03:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BC1B5.40302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and description Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this missing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try to see if the mystery can be solved.\n\nRight?\n\nIf not Agia, who else might this missing woman be?\n\nOr is this story a foreshadowing of the monsters Hethor will later let loose?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of her physical makeup.\n\nHere's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in.\n\nAnother thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him.\n\nIf Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so.\n\nStop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BC643.7060305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T19:17:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<311585F1-22C0-4306-8809-7D039B4C3713@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are \ncompletely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think \nall this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about \nUrth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless \"facedancer\" \nship's robot in a woman's skin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nLet me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and description Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this missing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try to see if the mystery can be solved.\n\nRight?\n\nIf not Agia, who else might this missing woman be?\n\nOr is this story a foreshadowing of the monsters Hethor will later let loose?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of her physical makeup.\n\nHere's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in.\n\nAnother thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him.\n\nIf Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so.\n\nStop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e0cae8da873f85fe6d4afaa8c20e163.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T19:24:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BC643.7060305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is exactly correct.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are\ncompletely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think\nall this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about\nUrth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless \"facedancer\"\nship's robot in a woman's skin.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and\ndescription Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this\nmissing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try\nto see if the mystery can be solved.\n\nRight?\n\nIf not Agia, who else might this missing woman be?\n\nOr is this story a foreshadowing of the monsters Hethor will later let\nloose?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman\nwho actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia\nas having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless\nof her physical makeup.\n\nHere's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings?\nDoes she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know\nwhether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or\neven allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism\nthat survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love\nbetween A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love\nsense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in.\n\nAnother thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and\nAgilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time\ntravel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if\nthey want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably,\nsince she can reverse direction and return to him.\n\nIf Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like\nAgilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back\nto when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus,\nor could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of\nyears to his thirty or so.\n\nStop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T19:28:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BC1B5.40302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and\nAgilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time\ntravel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they\nwant to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she\ncan reverse direction and return to him.\n\nIf Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like\nAgilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to\nwhen Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could\nspend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his\nthirty or so.\n\nStop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who has watched this discussion with skepticism, I can\n(re)assure you: you sound no more and no less crazy than everyone\nelse." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T19:41:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BC643.7060305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I think we're on the same page. If we agree, than there IS a woman on the loose in BotNS, who is a robot.\n\nOtherwise, I don't think Wolfe would have given us SO MUCH description of this missing paracoita.\n\n.\n\nHETHOR: \"How soft her hands were, her little hands.\"\n\nSEVERIAN: \"The slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in [Agilus] were compelling in her.\"\n\n.\n\nHETHOR: \"... that flesh that always felt sun-warmed.\"\n\nSEVERIAN: \"... as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold.\"\n\n.\n\nHethor also vows to crush any who may have his poppet (\"Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her!\"), and then proceeds to (under urgings from Agia herself) sick his monsters on Severian.\n\nJust sayin'.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 3:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless \"facedancer\" ship's robot in a woman's skin." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BD16F.6060808@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T20:05:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. Hethor presents the reader with a clear mystery which Severian does \nnot solve, but he does present us with lots of information about other, \nseemingly unrelated people and events. The trick is to match the clues \nto the mystery.\n\nHethor's motives are pretty important to Shadow and Agia figures in \nthose motives. She uses Hethor to attack Severian. She's not just a \nshopkeeper's brother.\n\nI recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person \nattacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was. \nDoes anyone know what I'm talking about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOkay, I think we're on the same page. If we agree, than there IS a woman on the loose in BotNS, who is a robot.\n\nOtherwise, I don't think Wolfe would have given us SO MUCH description of this missing paracoita.\n\n.\n\nHETHOR: \"How soft her hands were, her little hands.\"\n\nSEVERIAN: \"The slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in [Agilus] were compelling in her.\"\n\n.\n\nHETHOR: \"... that flesh that always felt sun-warmed.\"\n\nSEVERIAN: \"... as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold.\"\n\n.\n\nHethor also vows to crush any who may have his poppet (\"Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her!\"), and then proceeds to (under urgings from Agia herself) sick his monsters on Severian.\n\nJust sayin'.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 3:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless \"facedancer\" ship's robot in a woman's skin.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BEB15.3020805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T21:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BD16F.6060808@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYep. Hethor presents the reader with a clear mystery which Severian does\nnot solve, but he does present us with lots of information about other,\nseemingly unrelated people and events. The trick is to match the clues\nto the mystery.\n\nHethor's motives are pretty important to Shadow and Agia figures in\nthose motives. She uses Hethor to attack Severian. She's not just a\nshopkeeper's brother.\n\nI recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person\nattacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was.\nDoes anyone know what I'm talking about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BED5C.3070308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:04:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BEB15.3020805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I remember them ...\n\nBut I wonder if Agia, whether flesh or not, is one of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yep. Hethor presents the reader with a clear mystery which Severian does\nnot solve, but he does present us with lots of information about other,\nseemingly unrelated people and events. The trick is to match the clues\nto the mystery.\n\nHethor's motives are pretty important to Shadow and Agia figures in\nthose motives. She uses Hethor to attack Severian. She's not just a\nshopkeeper's brother.\n\nI recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person\nattacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was.\nDoes anyone know what I'm talking about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BF06B.6040207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:17:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BB20D.4040700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So\nit's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female\nassassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since\nWolfe probably made up the \"proverb,\" it was with a purpose, and there\nare no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin.\n(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole \nstory and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in \nthe sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I \ncan't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian \nbecomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of \nnothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always \nmentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia \nhas a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's \nnot like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - \nnot to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he \ndid anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing \nunwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to \nwork as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is \nmuch more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that \nthe oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think \nthe odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more \nextraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in \nmind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in \netymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at \nall. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BF1FA.8090904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BED5C.3070308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person\nattacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that\nwas. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, I remember them ...\n\nBut I wonder if Agia, whether flesh or not, is one of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Idas is supposed to be an undine or something and they don't seem to be very\nproficient in the arts of shapeshifting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BF279.9030707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:26:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BF06B.6040207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\n\nYou make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot \non that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So\nit's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female\nassassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since\nWolfe probably made up the \"proverb,\" it was with a purpose, and there\nare no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin.\n(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the \nwhole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's \nhints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - \nthough just what I can't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as \nSeverian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, \nseemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always \nmentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, \nAgia has a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, \nbut it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an \ninstrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to \nentrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the \ntwins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to \nbe to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the \ncharacter is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first \nsight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. \nIow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but \nrather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is \nbeing a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything \nin Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian \nsense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't \nthink she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BF28C.5070400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:26:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BF1FA.8090904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean, one of them politically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/18/2010 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person\nattacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that\nwas. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, I remember them ...\n\nBut I wonder if Agia, whether flesh or not, is one of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Idas is supposed to be an undine or something and they don't seem to \nbe very\nproficient in the arts of shapeshifting.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BF30B.1050906@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:28:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BF06B.6040207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to \nbe to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the \ncharacter is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first \nsight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. \nIow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but \nrather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is \nbeing a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything \nin Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian \nsense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't \nthink she's the Devil, she's not that powerful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She's a werewolf.\n\nI argue purely from textual probabilities.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:32:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BF06B.6040207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, Agia does have a knack for bending people to her will, whether that be Severian, Hethor, the Vodalani, etc. The aureole suggests something holy, perhaps a symbolic moment, perhaps some archangelic aspect?\n\nIf Ossipago is robot and not cacogen (I believe he is, isn't he), are there common clues connecting him and Agia? Or maybe just observations worthy of comparison (in the way there are between Hethor and Jonas, as star sailors).\n\nWe DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T22:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BF279.9030707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are biological and short lived.\n\nI think they are biological.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly.\n\nYou make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot\non that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech?\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So\nit's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female\nassassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since\nWolfe probably made up the \"proverb,\" it was with a purpose, and there\nare no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female\nassassin.\n(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the\nwhole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's\nhints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else -\nthough just what I can't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as\nSeverian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist,\nseemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always\nmentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast,\nAgia has a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok,\nbut it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an\ninstrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to\nentrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the\ntwins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to\nbe to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the\ncharacter is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first\nsight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation.\nIow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but\nrather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is\nbeing a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything\nin Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian\nsense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't\nthink she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1BFB0C.5060009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:02:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWe DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's \nstrings.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1C0198.9080801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:30:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incidentally, \"Agia\" means \"holy.\" So there you are.\n\nI take her as a kind of pretender to the throne of Urth. She killed \nVodalus and took his place:\n\nAgia, whom I might have loved, has chosen instead to become a female \nVodalus, taking all that lives most fully in humanity as her opponent.\n\nAlso, from UotNS:\n\nPerhaps it was some third thing, sensed unconsciously; but I felt again \nas I had when, so much younger, I had encountered Agia a desire so\nstrong that it seemed more spiritual than any faith, its flesh burned \naway in the heat of its own yearning.\n\nUm...\n\nAlso, the lucivee with which she tore Severian's cheek is named after a \nlynx, yet it is clearly what we call the \"tiger's claw,\" supposedly a \nninja weapon.\n\nWhat was somebody saying about Agia being an assassin? (And I agree with \nRyan---she is Asian in appearance.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, Agia does have a knack for bending people to her will, whether that be Severian, Hethor, the Vodalani, etc. The aureole suggests something holy, perhaps a symbolic moment, perhaps some archangelic aspect?\n\nIf Ossipago is robot and not cacogen (I believe he is, isn't he), are there common clues connecting him and Agia? Or maybe just observations worthy of comparison (in the way there are between Hethor and Jonas, as star sailors).\n\nWe DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1C01D8.3040607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:31:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ossipago is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThey are biological and short lived.\n\nI think they are biological.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly.\n\nYou make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot\non that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech?\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So\nit's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female\nassassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since\nWolfe probably made up the \"proverb,\" it was with a purpose, and there\nare no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female\nassassin.\n(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the\nwhole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's\nhints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else -\nthough just what I can't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as\nSeverian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist,\nseemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always\nmentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast,\nAgia has a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok,\nbut it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an\ninstrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to\nentrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the\ntwins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to\nbe to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the\ncharacter is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first\nsight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation.\nIow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but\nrather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is\nbeing a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything\nin Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian\nsense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't\nthink she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1C01FE.8020206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:32:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BFB0C.5060009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the \nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that \nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off \nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's \nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2de6dec426a86f3e2f702bdb63ed071e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:34:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1C01D8.3040607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ossipago is not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are biological and short lived.\n\nI think they are biological.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Exactly.\n\nYou make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot\non that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech?\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So\nit's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced\nfemale\nassassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But\nsince\nWolfe probably made up the \"proverb,\" it was with a purpose, and\nthere\nare no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female\nassassin.\n(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the\nwhole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's\nhints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else -\nthough just what I can't guess.\n\n- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as\nSeverian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist,\nseemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?\n\n- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always\nmentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast,\nAgia has a will of her own to remain relevant.\n\n- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok,\nbut it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an\ninstrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to\nentrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the\ntwins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to\nbe to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the\ncharacter is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first\nsight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation.\nIow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but\nrather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is\nbeing a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything\nin Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian\nsense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't\nthink she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1dff316488fc42f85415e9747fe7b944.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:35:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1C01FE.8020206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1C0512.2040908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-18T23:45:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<1dff316488fc42f85415e9747fe7b944.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes \neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIf the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010\nTested on: 6/18/2010 7:03:33 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8AC1B1AC-C5A8-4824-A6A5-2B17E597558A@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T00:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1C0512.2040908@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010\nTested on: 6/18/2010 7:03:33 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1C1E8E.2060009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T01:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<8AC1B1AC-C5A8-4824-A6A5-2B17E597558A@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, \nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin \nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her \nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in \nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, \none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope \nfor Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but \nrather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is \njust as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with \nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on \nthe ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it \nfair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is \nmore for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not \nkilling.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably \nacquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She \nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She \nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now \nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she \ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. \nRemind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a \nnew one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) \nPossibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps \nplanning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it \ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots \nare people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of \ntheir base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not \nrobot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a \nmiracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ \nfigure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had \na shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? \nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly \nbetter and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in \na previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, \n\"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns \nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just \nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, \nshe masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, \nbut becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own \nright. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, \"once she sees \nthem.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or \nthat she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAgilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52E41FB1-B379-4B80-9B18-8FD8109EDA96@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T02:47:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1C1E8E.2060009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man that's deep. But I found myself nodding a lot. Another \nconsideration...\n\nIf she is the escapee, it makes perfect sense for her to want to \nchange her identity, in case Hethor ever caught back up with her.\n\nI find the notion that these two are not birth twins not only \nintriguing but fully plausible.\n\nThanks for this spirited debate and discussion, truly an awesome group \nof minds on here. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a retread for some.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\nTry this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to \nhimself, but it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin \nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy \n(her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian \nin many ways. Together they represent a different path for the \nuniverse, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new \nuniverse of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can \nlie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and \npseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and \nThey click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite \nwith his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll \nninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which \nmakes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the \nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is \nspecialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her \nbecause of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. \nShe met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She \nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but \nnow she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and \nwhat she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches \nglimpses of this.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an \nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the \nworld to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. \n(Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them \nrivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill \nAgilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it \ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that \nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil \nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be \ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more \nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic \nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even \nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules \ncreated? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if \nthey were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already \nmore or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer \nto the excellent question, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns \nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just \nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is \nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to \nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the \nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the \nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler \nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not \nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over \nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is \njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we \nare to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either \nthat or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it \nbecomes even more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no \nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to \nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters \nin the\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to \nshow off\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling \nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f32ae3bc9e12674c094c9c6000841a3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T03:08:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<52E41FB1-B379-4B80-9B18-8FD8109EDA96@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First time here.\n\nIt's deep.\n\nBut is it fragrant?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Man that's deep. But I found myself nodding a lot. Another\nconsideration...\n\nIf she is the escapee, it makes perfect sense for her to want to\nchange her identity, in case Hethor ever caught back up with her.\n\nI find the notion that these two are not birth twins not only\nintriguing but fully plausible.\n\nThanks for this spirited debate and discussion, truly an awesome group\nof minds on here. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a retread for some.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to\nhimself, but it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy\n(her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian\nin many ways. Together they represent a different path for the\nuniverse, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new\nuniverse of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can\nlie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and\npseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and\nThey click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite\nwith his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll\nninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which\nmakes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is\nspecialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her\nbecause of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.\nShe met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but\nnow she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and\nwhat she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches\nglimpses of this.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the\nworld to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.\n(Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them\nrivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill\nAgilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules\ncreated? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if\nthey were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already\nmore or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer\nto the excellent question, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we\nare to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either\nthat or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it\nbecomes even more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters\nin the\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to\nshow off\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003f01cb0f63$bb925720$d4cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T03:58:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BD16F.6060808@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here\nare a few.\n\nMale chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems,\nand 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8,\np-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4,\np-131).\n\nChems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a\nbelly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, \"My hand\ncaught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . \" (ibid., chap.\nXXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and\nlifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for\nAgia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have\npointed out.\n\nJonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: \"I carried him\nback (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . .\" (CLAW, chap. XVI).\nSilk and Sev were both young, strong lads.\n\nInire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL,\nchap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot\nfrom a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T04:44:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<003f01cb0f63$bb925720$d4cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She's a woman, whatever she is.\n\nNothing you say here makes me doubt this theory.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but\nhere\nare a few.\n\nMale chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems,\nand 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8,\np-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4,\np-131).\n\nChems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a\nbelly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, \"My hand\ncaught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . \" (ibid.,\nchap.\nXXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and\nlifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for\nAgia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have\npointed out.\n\nJonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: \"I carried him\nback (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . .\" (CLAW, chap.\nXVI).\nSilk and Sev were both young, strong lads.\n\nInire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels\n(CITADEL,\nchap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a\nrobot\nfrom a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T05:00:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<003f01cb0f63$bb925720$d4cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aww... you're spoiling all the fun!\n\nAs for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says) than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily, should it come to that.\n\nHave you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text?\n\nIf yes, where to look? I'm following the clues, and they keep leading me to Agia. That's all I'm saying.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here\nare a few.\n\nMale chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems,\nand 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8,\np-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4,\np-131).\n\nChems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a\nbelly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, \"My hand\ncaught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . \" (ibid., chap.\nXXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and\nlifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for\nAgia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have\npointed out.\n\nJonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: \"I carried him\nback (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . .\" (CLAW, chap. XVI).\nSilk and Sev were both young, strong lads.\n\nInire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL,\nchap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot\nfrom a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4af166ad8d30b6c8c2f16a016b79091a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T05:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like he says.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aww... you're spoiling all the fun!\n\nAs for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says)\nthan a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily,\nshould it come to that.\n\nHave you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon\nfrom the lemon-wood box in the text?\n\nIf yes, where to look? I'm following the clues, and they keep leading me\nto Agia. That's all I'm saying.\n\n...ryan\n\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 11:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but\nhere\nare a few.\n\nMale chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem\nchems,\nand 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8,\np-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap.\n4,\np-131).\n\nChems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had\na\nbelly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, \"My\nhand\ncaught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . \" (ibid.,\nchap.\nXXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and\nlifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way\nfor\nAgia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have\npointed out.\n\nJonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: \"I carried\nhim\nback (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . .\" (CLAW, chap.\nXVI).\nSilk and Sev were both young, strong lads.\n\nInire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels\n(CITADEL,\nchap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a\nrobot\nfrom a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T05:11:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe we should look back through Borges' \"Book of Imaginary Beings\".\n\nWolfe has stolen more than one creature from this text and used it BotNS.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2010, at 12:44 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nShe's a woman, whatever she is.\n\nNothing you say here makes me doubt this theory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CB094.5030900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T11:57:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<003f01cb0f63$bb925720$d4cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one is saying Agia is a chem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here\nare a few.\n\nMale chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems,\nand 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8,\np-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4,\np-131).\n\nChems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a\nbelly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, \"My hand\ncaught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . . . \" (ibid., chap.\nXXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and\nlifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for\nAgia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have\npointed out.\n\nJonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: \"I carried him\nback (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . .\" (CLAW, chap. XVI).\nSilk and Sev were both young, strong lads.\n\nInire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL,\nchap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot\nfrom a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CBAC1.9070701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T12:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1C1E8E.2060009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created \nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a \nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no \nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known \nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from \nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly \nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest \ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are \ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous \ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important \ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie \nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the \nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies \nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties \nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for \ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards \nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what matters \nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an \nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable \nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the \nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being \nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the \ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the \naureole around A&A." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nTry this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, \nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin \nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her \nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in \nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, \none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new \nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in \nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous \nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with \nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja \non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes \nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the \nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized \nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his \npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She \nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She \nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now \nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she \ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an \nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world \nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it \nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of \nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it \ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that \nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil \nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be \ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more \nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic \nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even \nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? \nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were \ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less \nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent \nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns \nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just \nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is \nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to \nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the \nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the \nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler \nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not \nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over \nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is \njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are \nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or \nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes \neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no \nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to \nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in \nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show \noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4731274a877f648ef5ab97bfc57cfcfe.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T12:57:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CBAC1.9070701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I\nam on the same page as you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what matters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CC33C.3030404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T13:16:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sedition among the Paralians", "in_reply_to": "<4C1C1E8E.2060009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Father Inire writes to Severian:\n\nThere is sedition among the Paralians, which must be rooted out. The \nTarentines, your Antrustiones, and the city legions the three groups \nthat bore the brunt of the fighting having suffered almost as badly as \nthe enemy. There are cohorts among them that could not muster a hundred \nable soldiers.\n\nLexicon Urthis suggests that these named groups are various subject \npeoples and tries to locate them. But this is plainly an error. Inire is \nsimply giving the new Autarch a post-battle report. All these named \ngroups are simply \"imperial\" legions and are mentioned nowhere else.\n\nAccording to Google:\n\nParalians - Athenians off a ship named Paralus = Sailors and Marines. No \nkidding that there is sedition---Gunnie and Ida are among them.\n\nTarentines = Italian mercenary cavalry = mercenary cavalry, possibly \nthose Severian fought among. \"Hipparch Severian, of the Black Tarentines.\"\n\nAntrustiones = foreign soldiers fighting for the the Frankish king = \nforeign soldiers fighting for the Autarch." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CC42D.1040602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T13:20:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4731274a877f648ef5ab97bfc57cfcfe.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.\n\nI suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than \nto propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nExcept for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I\nam on the same page as you.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what matters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CC475.3080508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T13:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sedition among the Paralians", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CC33C.3030404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus \nInire's \"your.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nFather Inire writes to Severian:\n\nThere is sedition among the Paralians, which must be rooted out. The \nTarentines, your Antrustiones, and the city legions the three groups \nthat bore the brunt of the fighting having suffered almost as badly as \nthe enemy. There are cohorts among them that could not muster a \nhundred able soldiers.\n\nLexicon Urthis suggests that these named groups are various subject \npeoples and tries to locate them. But this is plainly an error. Inire \nis simply giving the new Autarch a post-battle report. All these named \ngroups are simply \"imperial\" legions and are mentioned nowhere else.\n\nAccording to Google:\n\nParalians - Athenians off a ship named Paralus = Sailors and Marines. \nNo kidding that there is sedition---Gunnie and Ida are among them.\n\nTarentines = Italian mercenary cavalry = mercenary cavalry, possibly \nthose Severian fought among. \"Hipparch Severian, of the Black \nTarentines.\"\n\nAntrustiones = foreign soldiers fighting for the the Frankish king = \nforeign soldiers fighting for the Autarch.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<414bd9fdc0075e2200c7aaafbf3991ce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T13:25:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CC42D.1040602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When has an assassin robot been mentioned?\n\nAccording to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.\n\nAgia is an oriental robot.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.\n\nI suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than\nto propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again,\nI\nam on the same page as you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly\ncreated\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and\ndirectly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what matters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is\ncapable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CC9EC.9050605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T13:45:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<414bd9fdc0075e2200c7aaafbf3991ce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the \nAntechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.\n\nIt doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a \nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology \n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she \nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to \ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has \nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?\n\nWho made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common \nsex-doll specs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhen has an assassin robot been mentioned?\n\nAccording to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.\n\nAgia is an oriental robot.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.\n\nI suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than\nto propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again,\nI\nam on the same page as you.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly\ncreated\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and\ndirectly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what matters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is\ncapable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CCFE1.6000704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T14:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this better, dude? :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bless you, man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a\nkitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the\nprotagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at\nleast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple \nmurder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league \nwith Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the \nbright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or \ninversion esp with Thecla whose hair is \"a dark aureole\" about p.70 of \nSHADOW.\n\nCome to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia \nwas awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown \nover her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a \nsexbot be modest or hungry?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80c0c8826991be63f44f662816dbdd8d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T14:12:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CC9EC.9050605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are the same model, one M, one F.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the\nAntechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.\n\nIt doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?\n\nWho made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When has an assassin robot been mentioned?\n\nAccording to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.\n\nAgia is an oriental robot.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.\n\nI suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it\nthan\nto propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over\nagain,\nI\nam on the same page as you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly\ncreated\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and\ndirectly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian\nhottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and\nties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching\nfor\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what\nmatters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is\ncapable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to\nhimself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy\n(her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian\nin\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the\nuniverse,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and\npseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite\nwith\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll\nninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is\nspecialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.\nShe\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but\nnow\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what\nshe\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the\nworld\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call\nit\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules\ncreated?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the\nexcellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we\nare\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that\nor\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it\nbecomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters\nin\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion\nthat\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to\nshow\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T14:15:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CCFE1.6000704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you ever patronized a really classy whore, Wilson?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this better, dude? :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bless you, man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a\nkitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the\nprotagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at\nleast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple\nmurder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league\nwith Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the\nbright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or\ninversion esp with Thecla whose hair is \"a dark aureole\" about p.70 of\nSHADOW.\n\nCome to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia\nwas awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown\nover her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a\nsexbot be modest or hungry?\n\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T14:28:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CCFE1.6000704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAgia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is \"a dark aureole\" about p.70 of SHADOW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet, her name's etymology indicates \"holy\". Wolfe is having fun with this. She has a fallen angel quality. And back to the idea of coming from Quasar with Hethor, she literally did come from the stars and escaped.\n\nJust twisting that dagger a bit.\n\nAnd the aureole description. I'm just picturing a dark cell and a shaft of sunlight creating this halo effect around the two of them.\n\nWolfe is telling us something. Think of it in cinematic terms for a minute. It's not like he said her teeth were white as pearls. Or her hair a dark aureole cascading around her shoulders. This one is an actual lighting effect, something Wolfe intentionally included.\n\nCould mean nothing, could have an archangel subtext. Could be a sardonic hint at her falling from the stars as a genicon escaped her master.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CD9C8.1080601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T14:52:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sedition among the Paralians", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CC475.3080508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 8:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNo, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus\nInire's \"your.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would that be the outfit with Daria, that was going to rob the gold from \nthe mastiff-men's stagecoach?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CDCEE.8060701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:06:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sedition among the Paralians", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CD9C8.1080601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I'm guessing. Unless Severian served with two units ... it \ngets fuzzy. I believe they were light cavalry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/19/2010 8:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus\nInire's \"your.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would that be the outfit with Daria, that was going to rob the gold \nfrom the mastiff-men's stagecoach?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CDED2.20203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:14:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CCFE1.6000704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good points. First, she's not proposed to be a \"bot\" in any usual sense, \naside from having a metal head. And Agilus can lie, or maybe he doesn't \neven know what she is.\n\nSecond, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although \nmodesty could just as well be \"programmed.\" For all I know, she has a penis.\n\nThird, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a \ntorturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she \nis a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.\n\nFourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting \nobservation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two \ntogether are more than either of them individually." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this better, dude? :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bless you, man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a\nkitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the\nprotagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at\nleast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple \nmurder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a \nleague with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of \nchildren. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's \nrepresentative of contrast or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is \n\"a dark aureole\" about p.70 of SHADOW.\n\nCome to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia \nwas awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her \ngown over her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would \na sexbot be modest or hungry?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CDEFA.7060406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:15:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<80c0c8826991be63f44f662816dbdd8d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, except then you have the fact that Agilus doesn't have a metal head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThey are the same model, one M, one F.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the\nAntechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.\n\nIt doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?\n\nWho made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When has an assassin robot been mentioned?\n\nAccording to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.\n\nAgia is an oriental robot.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.\n\nI suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it\nthan\nto propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over\nagain,\nI\nam on the same page as you.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly\ncreated\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and\ndirectly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian\nhottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and\nties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching\nfor\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what\nmatters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is\ncapable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to\nhimself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy\n(her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian\nin\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the\nuniverse,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and\npseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite\nwith\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll\nninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is\nspecialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.\nShe\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but\nnow\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what\nshe\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the\nworld\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call\nit\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules\ncreated?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the\nexcellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we\nare\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that\nor\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it\nbecomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters\nin\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion\nthat\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to\nshow\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:16:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<448189.38660.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without \nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs \nagainst the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "....\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is \nelectrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the Long \nSun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. \nMint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she struck him with \nan azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope contamination \nafter he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had \nbeen washed by their swim in Lake Limna.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CDF8C.4060108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would hardly \ndo for her to go around boasting of her strength and her nuclear power cell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHave you ever patronized a really classy whore, Wilson?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/18/2010 7:24 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Theoanthropos cry.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is this better, dude? :)\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bless you, man.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a\nkitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the\nprotagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at\nleast.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple\nmurder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league\nwith Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the\nbright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast or\ninversion esp with Thecla whose hair is \"a dark aureole\" about p.70 of\nSHADOW.\n\nCome to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia\nwas awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown\nover her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a\nsexbot be modest or hungry?\n\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CDFBD.1050201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:18:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, fusion. Yes, it was the shielding I was concerned about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without \nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This \nruns against the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is \nelectrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the \nLong Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, \netc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same \ntype. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she \nstruck him with an azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] \nisotope contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it \nwas good that he and Silk had been washed by their swim in Lake Limna.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CE122.4000303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:24:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 12:00 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAww... you're spoiling all the fun!\n\nAs for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says) than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily, should it come to that.\n\nHave you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, \nhas an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged \nartifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in \naddition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers \nare also conservators of ancient technology...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52a7a94e9199f89b897e93a25257a659.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CDEFA.7060406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's got these ribbons or something.\n\nAnd wierdness with masks like the hierodules.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, except then you have the fact that Agilus doesn't have a metal head.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are the same model, one M, one F.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the\nAntechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.\n\nIt doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?\n\nWho made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "When has an assassin robot been mentioned?\n\nAccording to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.\n\nAgia is an oriental robot.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.\n\nI suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it\nthan\nto propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over\nagain,\nI\nam on the same page as you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.\n\n(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly\ncreated\nby the gods.\n\n(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago\na\nshove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's\nno\nreason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.\n\nThere bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known\nprinciples to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from\nplentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and\ndirectly\nrelates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest\ncentral to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are\ntwins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous\ntendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important\ncharacter, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian\nhottie\nninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in\nthe\nbox and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies\nheavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and\nties\nin with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching\nfor\ngodhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards\nestablished differences between robots and humans, because what\nmatters\nin religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.\n\nLet me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.\n\nAlso, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as\nan\nassassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is\ncapable\nof sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the\nabove are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being\nTested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the\ngods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.\n\nI wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the\naureole around A&A.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to\nhimself,\nbut it makes some sense.\n\n(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin\nsister in Love.\n\n(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy\n(her\nname; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.\n\n(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than\nSeverian\nin\nmany ways. Together they represent a different path for the\nuniverse,\none that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new\nhope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in\nAgilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and\npseudoincestuous\nlove. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.\n\n(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite\nwith\nhis sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.\n\n(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll\nninja\non the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which\nmakes\nit fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the\nfacedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is\nspecialized\nfor sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his\npowers; he probably acquired her through his powers.\n\n(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.\nShe\nmet Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She\nawakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but\nnow\nshe is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what\nshe\ncan become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of\nthis.)\n\n(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an\nassassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the\nworld\nto spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.\n(Call\nit\nAEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of\nSeverian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.\n\nIt may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but\nit\ndoesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that\nrobots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil\nregardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can\nbe\ngod, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what\nmore\nof a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic\nChrist figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.\n\nHow cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe\neven\nhad a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules\ncreated?\nObviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were\ntruly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or\nless\nhappen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the\nexcellent\nquestion, \"So what if Agia is a robot?\"\n\n(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns\nspiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all,\njust\nthat he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is\nbeheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to\nkill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the\nCommonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the\nAscians, \"once she sees them.\" She's not one of them at all.\n\nI retract any speculations that Agia was a significant\ntime-traveler\nor that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was\nnot\nhuman.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over\nJovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem\nis\njust the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we\nare\nto assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either\nthat\nor\nsimply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nI don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it\nbecomes\neven more important to explain what changed her.\n\nAnd whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no\nPinocchio.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings\n*now*.\n\nShe is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to\nSeverian.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important\ncharacters\nin\nthe\nbook, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion\nthat\nHethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to\nshow\noff\nhis writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling\nAgia's\nstrings.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92cc6e7236f2524f6bfb5b9fcf099bb6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:31:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CE122.4000303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good, Wilson!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 12:00 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aww... you're spoiling all the fun!\n\nAs for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says)\nthan a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily,\nshould it come to that.\n\nHave you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon\nfrom the lemon-wood box in the text?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times,\nhas an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged\nartifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in\naddition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers\nare also conservators of ancient technology....\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7BEAB187550A41D6B8A9D829362A2D25@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:47:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<8AC1B1AC-C5A8-4824-A6A5-2B17E597558A@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nAgilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian \nsteel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the \nmisdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume \nAgia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take \nthat story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Agia really was Hethor's paracoita rather than a human woman - I'm less \nthan convinced of this, but there have been some interesting arguments made \nto that effect - might not Agilus have been another such? It might be that \nmale and female paracoitae look similar, perhaps even having interchangeable \nparts. Male ones being slightly built would save weight and space after \nall, which would be convenient for someone who spends a lot of time in a \nbox, or at least convenient for his or her owner. It would make them twins \nin a real sense. Perhaps they ran off together when their spacecraft landed.\n\nNobody has to change their face. In fact the possibility is added that Agia \nis a different paracoita other than the one lost by Hethor, but Hethor \nrecognised her as being one, since they all have similar looks.\n\n(If this is the case, I suspect the original owner of the rag shop met an \nunfortunate end.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CE866.4050802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T15:55:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CC9EC.9050605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would \nbe a much smoother distribution of \"Asian\" features. Severian has seen \nmany people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the \ntime of his writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been trained \nto be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from her \ndetermination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life over \nmany con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro who \ndiscusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike another \nperson with full force? It's the same thing here." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:07:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CE122.4000303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, though who did they use when Hethor had her in his box? Or are you not actually implying that the humanoid puppet employed to play Katharine is actually the SAME sex toy as Hethor's, just that we see them in more than one place?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThe Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, has an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged artifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in addition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers are also conservators of ancient technology...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4809CBEF-E7EE-4A50-B87C-A3088F478C03@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:08:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<7BEAB187550A41D6B8A9D829362A2D25@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nNobody has to change their face. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for the fact that Hethor reportedly visited Agia and Agilus at the rag shop BEFORE Hethor meets Severian, at which point he has his rant about his missing genicon.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7545feaf40f189f312ddc3fb480994f1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:20:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CDFBD.1050201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of them could be *actual* chemical robots.\n\nFueled by digestion or processes analagous to digestion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, fusion. Yes, it was the shielding I was concerned about.\n\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without\nsounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This\nruns against the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "....\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is\nelectrochemical, namely batteries. Was there ever anything in the\nLong Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge,\netc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same\ntype. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she\nstruck him with an azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive]\nisotope contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it\nwas good that he and Silk had been washed by their swim in Lake Limna.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<439e29e7bd283f0daf30535f6b8b9051.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:21:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<7BEAB187550A41D6B8A9D829362A2D25@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I think, Irish.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nAgilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian\nsteel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the\nmisdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume\nAgia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take\nthat story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nIf Agia really was Hethor's paracoita rather than a human woman - I'm less\nthan convinced of this, but there have been some interesting arguments\nmade\nto that effect - might not Agilus have been another such? It might be\nthat\nmale and female paracoitae look similar, perhaps even having\ninterchangeable\nparts. Male ones being slightly built would save weight and space after\nall, which would be convenient for someone who spends a lot of time in a\nbox, or at least convenient for his or her owner. It would make them\ntwins\nin a real sense. Perhaps they ran off together when their spacecraft\nlanded.\n\nNobody has to change their face. In fact the possibility is added that\nAgia\nis a different paracoita other than the one lost by Hethor, but Hethor\nrecognised her as being one, since they all have similar looks.\n\n(If this is the case, I suspect the original owner of the rag shop met an\nunfortunate end.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<7BEAB187550A41D6B8A9D829362A2D25@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are spooks.\n\nThey are assassins.\n\nThey are whores.\n\nWho does both?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nAgilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian\nsteel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the\nmisdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume\nAgia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take\nthat story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.\n\nIf Agia really was Hethor's paracoita rather than a human woman - I'm less\nthan convinced of this, but there have been some interesting arguments\nmade\nto that effect - might not Agilus have been another such? It might be\nthat\nmale and female paracoitae look similar, perhaps even having\ninterchangeable\nparts. Male ones being slightly built would save weight and space after\nall, which would be convenient for someone who spends a lot of time in a\nbox, or at least convenient for his or her owner. It would make them\ntwins\nin a real sense. Perhaps they ran off together when their spacecraft\nlanded.\n\nNobody has to change their face. In fact the possibility is added that\nAgia\nis a different paracoita other than the one lost by Hethor, but Hethor\nrecognised her as being one, since they all have similar looks.\n\n(If this is the case, I suspect the original owner of the rag shop met an\nunfortunate end.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<015bf4424ca5a38779db29d91b753081.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:24:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CE866.4050802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a false belief, about the smoothing of the races.\n\nIt assumes, as many modern false beliefs do, that history is not cyclical;\ntbat humans were smart animals and there weren't many of them for\n1,990,000 years, and that in the past ten thousand years we have done all\nof this for the first time.\n\nIn other words, this is what most of you believe, but it is not what I\nbelieve, and it is not what Gene believes.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would\nbe a much smoother distribution of \"Asian\" features. Severian has seen\nmany people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the\ntime of his writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been trained\nto be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from her\ndetermination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life over\nmany con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro who\ndiscusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike another\nperson with full force? It's the same thing here.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8bc3efbd52935aadec79d442316de671.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:25:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a bunch of them.\n\nThere's some from the shipwreck.\n\nWhy shouldn't the hieros be selling some to the autarchs?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough, though who did they use when Hethor had her in his box? Or\nare you not actually implying that the humanoid puppet employed to play\nKatharine is actually the SAME sex toy as Hethor's, just that we see them\nin more than one place?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 19, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times,\nhas an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged\nartifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in\naddition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers\nare also conservators of ancient technology...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tom Hopkins", "address": "topkins at hotmail.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:40:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<8bc3efbd52935aadec79d442316de671.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry\nto intrude upon this interesting theory with what very well may be a pointless\nthought, however ignoring the predominate belief about Merryn being Severian's\nsister wouldn't she also be a viable case to be Hethors missing paracoitae?\n\n\n\nWhen Severian meets Merryn and the Cumaean just previous to his meeting with\nApu-Punchau, he describes his journey to the Witches Tower as a young\napprentice and his meeting with the two exact same women now before him. In\nparticular of Merryn he speaks:\n\n\"Here face was so lovely and so bloodless that it might have been a mask\ncarved in ivory by some master sculptor.\"\n\n\n\nShortly after Merryn's and the Cumaean's true forms are revealed to him and the\ndescription of Merryn seems curious to me unless I am missing some rather\nobvious fact, which I admit could well be likely.\n\n\"Merryn had collapsed into a black-clad doll, so thin and dim that slender\nDorcas seemed robust beside her. Now that intelligence no longer animated that\nivory mask, I saw it was no more than parchment over bone\"\n\n\n\nI almost hesitate to mention this as I feel sure I am missing some important\npiece of information about why Merryn is perceived this way, however I feel it\nis worth mentioning none the less. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CF5AE.1020007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T16:51:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CDED2.20203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 10:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nGood points. First, she's not proposed to be a \"bot\" in any usual sense,\naside from having a metal head. And Agilus can lie, or maybe he doesn't\neven know what she is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the \nbat, there's a *tok* of the ball-skull collision. IMO the bat's crack is \nsharper than the skull's *tok* , which is still sharper than the *thump* \nof meaty limbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all \nfamiliar with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head would have hit the \nwall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid than a baseball.\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auss-QFCor4&feature=PlayList&pL9AAD000C45EE30&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index\u0018\n\nhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/2dy5gd2\n\n\nI live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle \nskull, put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although\nmodesty could just as well be \"programmed.\" For all I know, she has a\npenis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is modesty *after* she has been seen completely naked. And why \nwould anyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a\ntorturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she\nis a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to \nserve anyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting\nobservation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two\ntogether are more than either of them individually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rereading about their \"aureate faces\" and \"a narrow beam of sunlight \nthat had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before\", \nit could be the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way \nmist makes an aureole around the moon's sunlit face.\n\nhttp://www.lpod.org/?pp2\n\nor since \"aureate\" can also eman decorated with gold, there might be no \nactual fringe of light, but instead this would be another reference to \ntheir skin tone, which Sev has already likened to gold where the sun \nglints from Agia's skin through a rent in her ragged gown.\n\nI'm not saying this doesn't count as a subtextual halo, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would\nhardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her\nnuclear power cell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not the same as a sexbot - \"sleeping\" immobile in a box is a \nstrong advertisement that you are not really a person." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CF943.8020606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T17:07:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CE866.4050802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be \nfrom the deep past, before such mixing. If they are human, that is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there \nwould be a much smoother distribution of \"Asian\" features. Severian \nhas seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at \nleast by the time of his writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been \ntrained to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from \nher determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life \nover many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro \nwho discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike \nanother person with full force? It's the same thing here." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1CFA34.8040906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T17:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CF5AE.1020007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do!\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\nI live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle \nskull, put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7ea7e196335dba94048423975d9e8dec.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-19T17:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CF943.8020606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's different ethnic groups in Severian's time.\n\nEveryone isn't homogenized.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be\nfrom the deep past, before such mixing. If they are human, that is.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there\nwould be a much smoother distribution of \"Asian\" features. Severian\nhas seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at\nleast by the time of his writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common\nsex-doll specs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been\ntrained to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from\nher determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life\nover many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro\nwho discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike\nanother person with full force? It's the same thing here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<015001cb0fed$feb79120$1ad24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-19T20:28:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CB094.5030900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nNo one is saying Agia is a chem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A link to chems was made, I suppose because chems have metal bodies, which\nled to posts about chems and metal heads and black fluid and fiber-optic\nwires. That was the only reason I bothered to shoot down the notion that she\nand/or Agilus might be chems.\n\nThis whole thread began because of one line about the sound her head made\nwhen it struck the stone wall of Agilus's cell. Outside the mine of the\nman-apes, Severian had her down on the ground with his boot on her neck.\nWhen she began to struggle again, he rapped her with the flat of his sword.\nHe doesn't actually say that he struck her head with it, but the blow\nquieted her, so that seems most likely. Wherever he struck her with the\nblade, he also failed to note any metal-on-metal sound.\n\nAlso, as I quoted, he struck her just below the ear with his hand, when they\nwere in Agilus's cell. If there was anything unusual about the head he\nstruck, he also failed to note that.\n\nAnd I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<112913.49195.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T22:34:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CF943.8020606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/19/2010 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a\nminor alteration as to allow us to jettison the \"facedancer\" technology\n(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she\nresemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to\ndistinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has\nnot seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would be a much smoother distribution of >>\"Asian\" features. Severian has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the >>time of his writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be from the deep past, before such mixing. If\nthey are human, that is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has \"brown hair\" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and \"fair skin and freckles\" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T22:52:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<112913.49195.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... and with those \"strangely tilted eyes.\" A remnant of her former \nparacoital genicon self?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman \nwrote:\nThey're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has \"brown hair\" (/ \nSotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and \"fair skin \nand freckles\" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison \nwith Pia)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<447696.12908.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-19T23:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, \"How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?\nHm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying\nBrunians' radical principle, I shall call them \"chems.\" \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....\nThat sounds reasonable to me. Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries. Was\nthere ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power >source to blow when she struck him with an azoth. And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope >contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had been washed by their >swim in Lake Limna." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. So much for that.\n\nApplying Brunians's radical principle, I see \"chemical\" comes from a Greek word for \"transmutation\". Referring isotopes in a tiny reactor?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1D637F.2040704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T00:40:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as \"slanting.\" What else are we \nto think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n... and with those \"strangely tilted eyes.\" A remnant of her former \nparacoital genicon self?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has \"brown hair\" \n(/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and \"fair skin \nand freckles\" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison \nwith Pia)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F7D20C2-B038-4155-8D27-B41CED39D6BB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T01:02:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1D637F.2040704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct, David.\n\nHere were the two passages that definitely indicated Agia was of some type of Asian descent (to me, anyhow)...\n\n.\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins.\"\n(TSotT, Chap. 17, \"The Challenge\")\n\n\"Beside me walked a suntanned girl with long and slanting eyes.\"\n(TCotA, Chap. 30, \"The Corridors of Time\")\n\n.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2010, at 8:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nElsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as \"slanting.\" What else are we to think?\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... and with those \"strangely tilted eyes.\" A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<714041.12517.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T02:21:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1D637F.2040704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're to think that she's of Far Eastern and European ancestry, or whatever the equivalents are in that previous universe.\n\nPeople were talking as if she were Asian. I pointed out that she has other ancestry as well. I could have been clearer.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n\nElsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as \"slanting.\" What else are we to think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n... and with those \"strangely tilted eyes.\" A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has \"brown hair\" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and \"fair skin and freckles\" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100619-1, 06/19/2010\nTested on: 6/19/2010 6:53:23 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1D83FC.3060507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T02:59:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<447696.12908.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/19/2010 6:16 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI see \"chemical\" comes from a Greek word for \"transmutation\". Referring isotopes in a tiny reactor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's meant to descend from chimera - a creature assembled from \nparts. And an issue of Typhon, I see!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<02D3BF7F5B16487FA5510744D9709B5A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-20T07:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4809CBEF-E7EE-4A50-B87C-A3088F478C03@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nOn Jun 19, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nobody has to change their face." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except for the fact that Hethor reportedly visited Agia and Agilus at the \nrag shop BEFORE Hethor meets Severian, at which point he has his rant \nabout his missing genicon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That fits with the possibility I mentioned, that Hethor recognises Agia as \none of this kind, but knows she is not the one lost by him.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7F99406962A94BDFBDE416CD02F74BB8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-20T08:00:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<015001cb0fed$feb79120$1ad24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nAnd I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is \ninteresting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light \nfalling on her skin.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1DD1CA.3000002@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T08:31:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<7F99406962A94BDFBDE416CD02F74BB8@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/2010 3:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is\ninteresting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light\nfalling on her skin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Agilus and Agia are the remnants of a race or a bloodline of \nsexdoll-people, engender for that purpose and of similar origin as the \nmastiff-men and the cat women. They look alike because they are not just \ntwins but made to be fertile only among their cohort and giving birth to \nclones of themselves meant to eventually replace them. This would \nexplain why their incest is \"acceptable\" and thus not cursed with \ndefects from hidden recessives (because they don't come with recessives) \nbut the sin of their creation is visited upon them.\n\nThis also explains why Hethor falls for Agia; she greatly resembles his \ndoll because their creators had similar opinions on what made a most \ndesirable woman, long term. (Dr Talos has more radical preferences for \nJolenta, no doubt contributing to her unsustainability.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<601feefe9ff4b5b9fb4adc2b2765ef33.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-20T09:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<7F99406962A94BDFBDE416CD02F74BB8@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who has purple eyes in the story?\n\nDoes any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is\ninteresting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light\nfalling on her skin.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E0228.9000602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T11:57:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<0F7D20C2-B038-4155-8D27-B41CED39D6BB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And I think her brown hair doesn't matter, either because it's not \nnatural or because she's not of pure Asian descent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nCorrect, David.\n\nHere were the two passages that definitely indicated Agia was of some type of Asian descent (to me, anyhow)...\n\n.\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins.\"\n(TSotT, Chap. 17, \"The Challenge\")\n\n\"Beside me walked a suntanned girl with long and slanting eyes.\"\n(TCotA, Chap. 30, \"The Corridors of Time\")\n\n.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 19, 2010, at 8:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as \"slanting.\" What else are we to think?\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "... and with those \"strangely tilted eyes.\" A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E0268.1080803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T11:58:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<714041.12517.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eurasian, sure. But she uses a tiger claw/lucivee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI think we're to think that she's of Far Eastern and European ancestry, or whatever the equivalents are in that previous universe.\n\nPeople were talking as if she were Asian. I pointed out that she has other ancestry as well. I could have been clearer.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \n\nElsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as \"slanting.\" What else are we to think?\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... and with those \"strangely tilted eyes.\" A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self?\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "They're not all that Asian in appearance. Agia has \"brown hair\" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and \"fair skin and freckles\" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100619-1, 06/19/2010\nTested on: 6/19/2010 6:53:23 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E46D7.1050106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T16:50:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1DD1CA.3000002@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting suggestion. It's a way to retain the \"sacred \ntwins\" theory without the robot angle. Funny how it's easier to propose \nan entire unknown race (perhaps since we know such must exist) than to \nexplain why someone would create an assassin robot or why a sexbot would \nturn holy and self-directed.\n\nThe robot theory is based entirely on Agia's (1) possibly metal head and \n(2) possible identity as the poppet. The bio-android theory doesn't need \n#1. As Roy notes, there are no other hints that she is metal despite \nmany opportunities, and if we accept as simple truth their twin origin, \nAgilus' death disproves the metalhead clue for me. But Agia remains an \nextreme femme fatale---emphasis on both words. Why?\n\nThe Asian-appearance thing is irrelevant to this except to the extent it \nsuggests a non-Nessus origin for her and \"explains\" the use of ninja and \nassassin weapons.\n\nI'd prefer to rest a theory on at least 3 data points. If she's not a \n\"hard robot\":\n\n---Her strength has another source\n---She could still be the poppet\n---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or \njust human\n\nAfter giving away the hard-robot part, is it needed that A&A be anything \nother than human at all? It's not strictly necessary that Agia be the \npoppet; it may be enough that Hethor recognizes something in Agia that \nhe likes---it could be as simple as that she is passive in bed and \ndominating/controlling otherwise, although I doubt her ability to even \nfake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance \nand submission.\n\nStill, I believe the poppet story must lead somewhere. We know Wolfe \nreally likes the live-puppet theme, as a subcategory of the live-robot \ntheme. It's actually hard to imagine a long novel by Wolfe without it. \nIt has to be in there somewhere. Jonas is one twist on that theme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nOn 6/20/2010 3:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is\ninteresting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light\nfalling on her skin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Agilus and Agia are the remnants of a race or a bloodline of \nsexdoll-people, engender for that purpose and of similar origin as the \nmastiff-men and the cat women. They look alike because they are not \njust twins but made to be fertile only among their cohort and giving \nbirth to clones of themselves meant to eventually replace them. This \nwould explain why their incest is \"acceptable\" and thus not cursed \nwith defects from hidden recessives (because they don't come with \nrecessives) but the sin of their creation is visited upon them.\n\nThis also explains why Hethor falls for Agia; she greatly resembles \nhis doll because their creators had similar opinions on what made a \nmost desirable woman, long term. (Dr Talos has more radical \npreferences for Jolenta, no doubt contributing to her unsustainability.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E5308.5010909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T17:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1E46D7.1050106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/2010 11:50 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'd prefer to rest a theory on at least 3 data points. If she's not a\n\"hard robot\":\n\n---Her strength has another source\n---She could still be the poppet\n---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or\njust human" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the poppet's stretches in the box are not suited to anything \nlike a vertebrate: the bit about smiling when it closes so she can be \nsmiling when it opens indicates her muscles don't relax during periods \nof inactivity. The whole sharp sound episode demonstrates Agila's \nmuscles positively relax when her consciousness is interfered with.\n\nAs for her strength, she's ruthless and cold, like Lady MacBeth sought \nto be. She may also have a bit more innate strength than usual for her \nsize, perhaps because rather than just sex toys, A&A's line was intended \nto be conjugal domestics; this way a slight manservant can be just as \ngood at opening jars and moving furniture as a full-size. And it may not \nbe muscle, it could be a more ready adrenaline rush." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After giving away the hard-robot part, is it needed that A&A be anything\nother than human at all? It's not strictly necessary that Agia be the\npoppet; it may be enough that Hethor recognizes something in Agia that\nhe likes---it could be as simple as that she is passive in bed and\ndominating/controlling otherwise, although I doubt her ability to even\nfake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance\nand submission." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia owns up to doing all the kinky things that Hethor likes, so she's \nat least capable of bottoming if not actual submission. I think her \ndetermination is such that she could and would submit to anything short \nof a SAW movie that would further her revenge on Severian and the world \nin general, at least in the short term." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E553F.8010403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T17:51:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1E5308.5010909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All good points." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/20/2010 11:50 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd prefer to rest a theory on at least 3 data points. If she's not a\n\"hard robot\":\n\n---Her strength has another source\n---She could still be the poppet\n---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or\njust human" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the poppet's stretches in the box are not suited to anything \nlike a vertebrate: the bit about smiling when it closes so she can be \nsmiling when it opens indicates her muscles don't relax during periods \nof inactivity. The whole sharp sound episode demonstrates Agila's \nmuscles positively relax when her consciousness is interfered with.\n\nAs for her strength, she's ruthless and cold, like Lady MacBeth sought \nto be. She may also have a bit more innate strength than usual for her \nsize, perhaps because rather than just sex toys, A&A's line was \nintended to be conjugal domestics; this way a slight manservant can be \njust as good at opening jars and moving furniture as a full-size. And \nit may not be muscle, it could be a more ready adrenaline rush." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After giving away the hard-robot part, is it needed that A&A be anything\nother than human at all? It's not strictly necessary that Agia be the\npoppet; it may be enough that Hethor recognizes something in Agia that\nhe likes---it could be as simple as that she is passive in bed and\ndominating/controlling otherwise, although I doubt her ability to even\nfake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance\nand submission." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia owns up to doing all the kinky things that Hethor likes, so she's \nat least capable of bottoming if not actual submission. I think her \ndetermination is such that she could and would submit to anything \nshort of a SAW movie that would further her revenge on Severian and \nthe world in general, at least in the short term." } ] }, { "message_id": "<462230.24854.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T19:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1CF5AE.1020007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nWho has purple eyes in the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't answer that because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient, \ninviolable rules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say Thecla and presumably her khaibit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has \n\"impossibly narrow\" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her \nbody. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture them may or may not be what you mean by \"small or delicate\".\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the bat, there's a *tok* of the ball-skull\ncollision. IMO the bat's crack is sharper than the skull's *tok* , which is still sharper than the *thump* of meaty\nlimbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all familiar with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head\nwould have hit the wall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid than a baseball.\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auss-QFCor4&feature=PlayList&pL9AAD000C45EE30&\nplaynext_from=PL&playnext=1&index\u0018\n\nhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/2dy5gd2" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's worse than reading about Allowin's Necklace.\n\nHowever, \"sharp\" is not the word I'd use to distinguish those two sounds. Maybe just me.\n\nI live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle skull, put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although\nmodesty could just as well be \"programmed.\" For all I know, she has a\npenis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is modesty *after* she has been seen completely naked. And why would anyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a\ntorturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she\nis a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to serve anyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting\nobservation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two\ntogether are more than either of them individually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rereading about their \"aureate faces\" and \"a narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before\", it could be the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way mist makes an aureole around the moon's sunlit face.\n\nhttp://www.lpod.org/?pp2\n\nor since \"aureate\" can also eman decorated with gold, there might be no actual fringe of light, but instead this would be another reference to their skin tone, which Sev has already likened to gold where the sun glints from Agia's skin through a rent in her ragged gown.\n\nI'm not saying this doesn't count as a subtextual halo, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would\nhardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her\nnuclear power cell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not the same as a sexbot - \"sleeping\" immobile in a box is a strong advertisement that you are not really a person.\n\n\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<300914.71678.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T20:14:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1BF06B.6040207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nI just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Second most important? :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and precious little is known about\nher. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't > guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the\nAutarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As people have pointed out, she's good at getting people to do what she wants, and she controls Hethor, who controls the monsters.\n\nI think part of the point may be that for Severian to play his role, he needs supernatural powers and help, but the antagonist to all that is most fully human, unscrupulousness and hatred will go a long way. Plus some mirrors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the\nstory in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Thecla appears in another way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he\ndid it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before\nhe did anything -" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think law or morality has anything to do with her feelings, and I think her anger has something to do with Severian's failure to die (a point Agilus brought up). It may also have to do with his ability to resist her efforts to change his mind. And after Agilus dies, what does she have but revenge?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their instant scheme is very striking. Maybe we should imagine that, with lots of time on their hands since their shop isn't busy, they've talked about what to do if someone brings something valuable in.\n\nThis is a stereotype of crime fiction, I think--the grasping, ruthless character ready with a deception at a moment's notice. It's more understandable among those who possess \"the hopeful, hopeless courage of the poor\" (/SotT/, Ch. XIX)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian.\nTo me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and\nthat the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a\nrobot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing\nin mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian\nsense)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, I don't agree.\n\nIncidentally, if she is a sex robot or a genetically engineered doxy or some such, it's remarkable that she'd be eking out a living from the costume shop. I suppose if she's an assassin, the shop could be her cover." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, we agree on that.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<72e3028a055c4556d1f936e98299b464.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-20T21:16:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<462230.24854.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What color are Dorcas' eyes?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who has purple eyes in the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I won't answer that because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient,\ninviolable rules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say\nThecla and presumably her khaibit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has\n\"impossibly narrow\" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her\nbody. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture\nthem may or may not be what you mean by \"small or delicate\".\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the\nbat, there's a *tok* of the ball-skull\ncollision. IMO the bat's crack is sharper than the skull's *tok* , which\nis still sharper than the *thump* of meaty\nlimbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all familiar\nwith. The ball hits faster than Agia's head\nwould have hit the wall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid\nthan a baseball.\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auss-QFCor4&feature=PlayList&pL9AAD000C45EE30&\nplaynext_from=PL&playnext=1&index\u0018\n\nhttp://preview.tinyurl.com/2dy5gd2" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's worse than reading about Allowin's Necklace.\n\nHowever, \"sharp\" is not the word I'd use to distinguish those two sounds.\nMaybe just me.\n\nI live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle skull,\nput a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although\nmodesty could just as well be \"programmed.\" For all I know, she has a\npenis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is modesty *after* she has been seen completely naked. And why would\nanyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a\ntorturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she\nis a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to serve\nanyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting\nobservation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two\ntogether are more than either of them individually." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rereading about their \"aureate faces\" and \"a narrow beam of sunlight that\nhad given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before\", it could\nbe the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way mist makes an\naureole around the moon's sunlit face.\n\nhttp://www.lpod.org/?pp2\n\nor since \"aureate\" can also eman decorated with gold, there might be no\nactual fringe of light, but instead this would be another reference to\ntheir skin tone, which Sev has already likened to gold where the sun\nglints from Agia's skin through a rent in her ragged gown.\n\nI'm not saying this doesn't count as a subtextual halo, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would\nhardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her\nnuclear power cell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not the same as a sexbot - \"sleeping\" immobile in a box is a strong\nadvertisement that you are not really a person.\n\n\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E8BA6.8060609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T21:44:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<300914.71678.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia becomes simpler if you drop any notion of being synthetic or otherworldly. But not less important.\n\nShe still has (1) light-based descriptions (2) the effect she has on Severian (spiritual burning) (3) her name (4) her relationship with Agilus and so on. These need to be accounted for.\n\n\n\nThe fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and\nthat the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a\nrobot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing\nin mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian\nsense)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, I don't agree.\n\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<641163.26843.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T21:50:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<72e3028a055c4556d1f936e98299b464.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who has purple eyes in the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I won't answer that \nbecause I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient,\ninviolable \nrules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thecla and presumably her khaibit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does any girl in " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the story have notably small or delicate hands?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"impossibly narrow\" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "body. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you \npicture\nthem may or may not be what you mean by \"small or \ndelicate\".\n\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What color are Dorcas' eyes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The deep blue of the world-river Uroboros in my dreams\" (/SotT/, Ch. XXVI). \"Bits of the azure firmament of some hidden world waiting for Man\" (Ch. XXXV). Those were the first two references I found. Are there others that suggest anything different?\n\nAnd what is the purpose of these questions?\n\nI'm changing my answer to Antonio's question. Maybe Agia and Agilus do make their living from avern duels with unwary travelers. There must be some reason we're told twice in /SotT/, Ch. XXV, that Agia's been at the Inn of Lost Loves before.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2010-06-20T22:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1B189E.9070305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby\nTheoanthropos cry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Official Proclamation: top-posting, while discouraged, is not\nforbidden on the urth list, and is on the list of\nthings-too-trivial-to-complain-about.\n\nDoesn't hurt to remind people to trim quoted material, though! Yeah,\nwhen you reply, it's best to remove everything but the minimum needed\nto make the context clear.\n\nAlso, this whole Agia-as-robot thread is pretty fascinating, thanks!\n\n- ranjit" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-06-20T22:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1E46D7.1050106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 20 Jun 2010, David Stockhoff wrote:\n---Her strength has another source\n---She could still be the poppet\n---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or just \nhuman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's a common trope that opposite-sex dizygotic twins can be so \nsimilar that they can cross-dress and confuse others, but in reality they \nare will have an average brother-sister resemblance. But in Urth, we know \nabout the khaibits, so it would be possible to produce genetically \nidentical twins aside from the sex chromosomes. That would be closer to \nthe alchemical twinning, I guess. I always had the impression they were \nunusually similar, but couldn't point to any particular descriptive \npassages.\n\nI guess the other thing is after losing Agilus, she becomes Severian's \nevil twin ;)\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1E9C18.2030502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-20T22:54:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, exactly. And khaibits are a possible explanation for the twins.\n\nBut Agia shows her strength (and her knowledge of weapons) after Agilus \nis dead.\n\nAnd she's still totally hot, so Severian didn't execute Agia instead of \nAgilus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nOn Sun, 20 Jun 2010, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---Her strength has another source\n---She could still be the poppet\n---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android \nor just human" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it's a common trope that opposite-sex dizygotic twins can be so \nsimilar that they can cross-dress and confuse others, but in reality \nthey are will have an average brother-sister resemblance. But in \nUrth, we know about the khaibits, so it would be possible to produce \ngenetically identical twins aside from the sex chromosomes. That \nwould be closer to the alchemical twinning, I guess. I always had the \nimpression they were unusually similar, but couldn't point to any \nparticular descriptive passages.\n\nI guess the other thing is after losing Agilus, she becomes Severian's \nevil twin ;)\n\nCheers, David Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<03c8628541ab512c7c88b6e7e478a0cf.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-21T01:43:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<641163.26843.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is\nmentioned.\n\nHer eyes are close to purple...\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who has purple eyes in the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I won't answer that\nbecause I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient,\ninviolable\nrules that I don't know. But if I were to answer it, I'd say" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thecla and presumably her khaibit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Does any girl in\nthe story have notably small or delicate hands?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit. I'd also say that Thecla has" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"impossibly narrow\" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her\nbody. You may or may not picture them that way, and however you\npicture\nthem may or may not be what you mean by \"small or\ndelicate\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What color are Dorcas' eyes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The deep blue of the world-river Uroboros in my dreams\" (/SotT/, Ch.\nXXVI). \"Bits of the azure firmament of some hidden world waiting for Man\"\n(Ch. XXXV). Those were the first two references I found. Are there\nothers that suggest anything different?\n\nAnd what is the purpose of these questions?\n\nI'm changing my answer to Antonio's question. Maybe Agia and Agilus do\nmake their living from avern duels with unwary travelers. There must be\nsome reason we're told twice in /SotT/, Ch. XXV, that Agia's been at the\nInn of Lost Loves before.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1EC422.1030608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T01:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<300914.71678.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/2010 3:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think law or morality has anything to do with her feelings,\nand I think her anger has something to do with Severian's failure to die\n(a point Agilus brought up). It may also have to do with his ability to\nresist her efforts to change his mind. And after Agilus dies, what does\nshe have but revenge?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It must seem so unfair that they did everything *right* and they still \nend up getting caught because the mark was superhumanly immune to the \ninvariably fatal avern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing\nunwary\ntravellers in avern duels?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Their instant scheme is very striking. Maybe we should imagine that,\nwith lots of time on their hands since their shop isn't busy, they've\ntalked about what to do if someone brings something valuable in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian believes it is an ongoing scheme, and Agilus does not deny it \nwhen accused of it in his cell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, if she is a sex robot or a genetically engineered\ndoxy > or some such, it's remarkable that she'd be eking out a living \nfrom the\ncostume shop. I suppose if she's an assassin, the shop could be her cover." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They both have beyond poor attitudes, so I could see A&A being dismissed \nfrom whatever service they might have had and forced to get by on their \ndomestic skils: mending clothes and minding a shop, and titilating sugar \ndaddies or mammas as the opportunity presents.\n\nThough, there is a possibility that A&A are both: her hasty magical \ninscription ties her to the unknown number of faux magicians who oppose \nthe the advent of the New Sun, and through them to Vodalus' \nrevolutionaries. This anti-Illuminati conspiracy may have encompassed \nthem in their searched for a sacred hermaphrodite, and kept them on as \ndeniable assets, you never know when a ruthless killer will come in handy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T04:14:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "<03c8628541ab512c7c88b6e7e478a0cf.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nDorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is\nmentioned.\n\nHer eyes are close to purple..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh man, I can't even TRY to puzzle that one out. She IS a poppet candidate, though, I guess (?).\n\nWe would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation, since there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her (Boatman, Ouen, etc.).\n\nBut here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from the end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene...\n\n.\n\n\"'Where is she, the beloved whom I lost?'\n\n#\n\nDorcas had found a daisy for her hair...\"\n\n.\n\nIt doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and Severian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be around Jonas). But it's something worth noting.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T04:43:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1D637F.2040704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If only Gene Wolfe had written another text, possibly a short story,\nexploring the idea of puppets in boxes. Then maybe someone wiser than I\ncould draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the\nparacoita, which is beyond me.\n\nI will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others to\nwisdom.\n\n1) It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are attributed\nto several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one particular\nparacoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than a puzzle with a\ndefinite character as the solution, and there may be red herrings...like a\nsickening crack of bone on stone being described as as sharp as a metallic\nclang. Or not.\n\n2) Severian dreams of marionettes that seemingly represent him and\nBaldanders.\n\n3) In Urth, Severian-as-White-Fountain describes Severian-as-Man as a\n\"marionette of flesh\".\n\n4) An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be taken by\nthe term \"marionette.\" It might conceivably please him to make several\nfemale characters in a single work \"marionettes\" in one sense or another.\n\n5) Why lemonwood? After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes to\nlife is pine. Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T04:44:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Motif." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is\nmentioned.\n\nHer eyes are close to purple..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh man, I can't even TRY to puzzle that one out. She IS a poppet candidate,\nthough, I guess (?).\n\nWe would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation,\nsince there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her\n(Boatman, Ouen, etc.).\n\nBut here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from\nthe end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene...\n\n.\n\n\"'Where is she, the beloved whom I lost?'\n\n#\n\nDorcas had found a daisy for her hair...\"\n\n.\n\nIt doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and\nSeverian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be\naround Jonas). But it's something worth noting.\n\n...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T05:00:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moreover. Gene Wolfe (married to Rosemary) wrote The Toy Theatre and used\nmarionettes as a central image in New Sun.\n\nDid he never think of the pun \"Rose-Marionette\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nIf only Gene Wolfe had written another text, possibly a short story,\nexploring the idea of puppets in boxes. Then maybe someone wiser than I\ncould draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the\nparacoita, which is beyond me.\n\nI will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others to\nwisdom.\n\n1) It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are attributed\nto several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one particular\nparacoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than a puzzle with a\ndefinite character as the solution, and there may be red herrings...like a\nsickening crack of bone on stone being described as as sharp as a metallic\nclang. Or not.\n\n2) Severian dreams of marionettes that seemingly represent him and\nBaldanders.\n\n3) In Urth, Severian-as-White-Fountain describes Severian-as-Man as a\n\"marionette of flesh\".\n\n4) An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be taken by\nthe term \"marionette.\" It might conceivably please him to make several\nfemale characters in a single work \"marionettes\" in one sense or another.\n\n5) Why lemonwood? After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes to\nlife is pine. Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26589235-F7AD-4B97-A0DA-918ABCCC33FB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T05:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nPer Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.\n\n.\n\npoppet\nn. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300\nn. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically smaller than the lover\n\nparacoita\nn. - a female sexual partner\n\ngenicon\nn. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual partner\n\nscopolagna\nn. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme\n\n.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T05:14:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<26589235-F7AD-4B97-A0DA-918ABCCC33FB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy\nTheatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the\nwrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.\n\n.\n\npoppet\nn. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300\nn. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically\nsmaller than the lover\n\nparacoita\nn. - a female sexual partner\n\ngenicon\nn. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual\npartner\n\nscopolagna\nn. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme\n\n.\n\n...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E654E8B-EBB1-4B78-8A79-67D08EBD34AD@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T05:17:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nShe rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, but were you saying Howdy-Doody was made out of lemonwood? Or that his box was? Maybe that was where I got mixed up?\n\nIf you're simply noting that Howdy Doody was borne of lemonwood as an aside, then ignore me.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T05:22:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4E654E8B-EBB1-4B78-8A79-67D08EBD34AD@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was noting that one reason to associate a doll with lemonwood was that\nHowdy Doody was made of lemonwood. Obviously the \"doll\" in question here\nwould not literally be made of wood, so if one wanted to associate wood with\nsuch a doll one would have to use an alternative route, e.g., by having that\ndoll stored in a box of that wood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jun 21, 2010, at 1:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The Toy\nTheatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, but were you saying Howdy-Doody was made out of lemonwood? Or that\nhis box was? Maybe that was where I got mixed up?\n\nIf you're simply noting that Howdy Doody was borne of lemonwood as an\naside, then ignore me.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FA41B.5080004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-21T17:40:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it odd as well ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is\nmentioned.\n\nHer eyes are close to purple...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh man, I can't even TRY to puzzle that one out. She IS a poppet candidate, though, I guess (?).\n\nWe would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation, since there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her (Boatman, Ouen, etc.).\n\nBut here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from the end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene...\n\n.\n\n\"'Where is she, the beloved whom I lost?'\n\n#\n\nDorcas had found a daisy for her hair...\"\n\n.\n\nIt doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and Severian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be around Jonas). But it's something worth noting.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FA876.8030408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-21T17:59:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John\n\nI've been hoping you would chime in. Very good.\n\nA marionette may certainly be made of anything. It's what done with it \nthat matters---or what it does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nIf only Gene Wolfe had written another text, possibly a short story, \nexploring the idea of puppets in boxes. Then maybe someone wiser than \nI could draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the \nparacoita, which is beyond me.\n \nI will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others \nto wisdom.\n \n1) It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are \nattributed to several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one \nparticular paracoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than \na puzzle with a definite character as the solution, and there may be \nred herrings...like a sickening crack of bone on stone being described \nas as sharp as a metallic clang. Or not.\n \n2) Severian dreams of marionettes that seemingly represent him and \nBaldanders.\n \n3) In Urth, Severian-as-White-Fountain describes Severian-as-Man as a \n\"marionette of flesh\".\n \n4) An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be \ntaken by the term \"marionette.\" It might conceivably please him to \nmake several female characters in a single work \"marionettes\" in one \nsense or another.\n \n5) Why lemonwood? After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes \nto life is pine. Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.\n\n\n \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FA8F1.5090905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-21T18:01:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<26589235-F7AD-4B97-A0DA-918ABCCC33FB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But poppet obviously = puppet.\n\nHowever, the paracoita may have been a poppet in your first sense too, \nsince Hethor is a sorcerer of sorts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.\n\n.\n\npoppet\nn. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300\nn. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically smaller than the lover\n\nparacoita\nn. - a female sexual partner\n\ngenicon\nn. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual partner\n\nscopolagna\nn. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme\n\n.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FA92A.2070904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-21T18:02:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't going to go there. Huh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nShe rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The \nToy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.\n\nOn Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ryan Dunn > wrote:\n\n On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n > Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.\n\n Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif,\n maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm\n misunderstanding you.\n\n .\n\n poppet\n n. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300\n n. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is\n physically smaller than the lover\n\n paracoita\n n. - a female sexual partner\n\n genicon\n n. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by\n his/her actual partner\n\n scopolagna\n n. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme\n\n .\n\n ...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FB36E.7030000@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T18:46:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/21/2010 12:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nShe rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The \nToy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See \"Sabra\" in 'The Soldier of Sidon'.\n\nU+16B9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FB808.8020705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-21T19:05:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1FB36E.7030000@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone know what collection this story is in?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/21/2010 12:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She rested in a lemonwood box while not used. The marionettes in The \nToy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex \ntoys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See \"Sabra\" in 'The Soldier of Sidon'.\n\nU+16B9\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FB9B8.1000204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T19:12:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1FB808.8020705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/21/2010 2:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoes anyone know what collection this story is in? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presume you mean The Toy Theater.\n\nThe Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories.\n\nIncidentally, 'On Blue's Waters' is riddled with 'Pinocchio' references." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eugene Zaretskiy", "address": "eugene.zar at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-21T19:13:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "<4C1FB808.8020705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoes anyone know what collection this story is in?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it in the recent \"The Best of Gene Wolfe\" collection.\n\nhttp://www.amazon.com/Best-Gene-Wolfe-Definitive-Retrospective/dp/076532136X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277147539&sr=8-5\n\nI particularly like this collection because every story has commentary\nby Gene Wolfe and quite a few of them are hilarious, and the rest\nsimply insightful." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Eugene Z\nhttp://blog.eugenez.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C1FC926.4000508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-21T20:18:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Agia a Robot?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to you and James." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eugene Zaretskiy wrote:\nOn Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone know what collection this story is in?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read it in the recent \"The Best of Gene Wolfe\" collection.\n\nhttp://www.amazon.com/Best-Gene-Wolfe-Definitive-Retrospective/dp/076532136X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277147539&sr=8-5\n\nI particularly like this collection because every story has commentary\nby Gene Wolfe and quite a few of them are hilarious, and the rest\nsimply insightful.\n\n " } ] } ] }