Subject: (urth) Wall of Nessus

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:47:40 +0000

Despite my recent musings about when and why the Wall of Nessus may have
been built, upon further reflection I think I can establish from the text
that it antedates both the autarchy and Typhon.

Jonas came from an earlier time period and knew far more than Severian about
the past. Sev questioned him, when they were in Saltus, about the strange,
man-like creatures they had seen when they passed through the Wall. He
asked: "When we were going through the Wall, you said the things we saw in
there were soldiers, and you implied they had been stationed there to resist
Abaia and the others." (CLAW, chap. VIII)

Sev wanted to know if the man-apes he saw in the mine were also hybrids like
those in the Wall and why the autarchs had not used human soldiers. There
follows some debate about that, but it is not germane to my point. Jonas
said: "The old autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human
soldiers. But the warriors they had created by humanizing animals, and
perhaps, in secret by bestializing men, were more loyal. They had to be,
since the populace - who hated their rulers - hated these inhuman servitors
more still. Thus the servitors could be made to endure things that human
soldiers would not. That may have been why they were used in the Wall. Or
there may be some other explanation entirely."

Regardless of why hybrids were used in the Wall rather than humans, the
point is that rulers (plural), before the autarchy, stationed defenders in
the Wall. Typhon was the last ruler before the first autarch, Ymar, and
those two were contemporaries. So, if Jonas is to be believed, the Wall was
there before Typhon. That section of text also strongly suggests that the
purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the oceans.

That latter detail may be somewhat at odds with Cyriaca's story, and after
Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the
oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule."
[SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.

-Roy

---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:11:56 +0000

> purpose of the Wall was to resist the mountain-sized monsters in the
But isn't that contradicted a little later in the same scene? IIRC, Sev
points out the walls aren't going to be much use against creatures the size
of Abaia, and Jonas agrees, indicating that the walls are actually for
defense against Abaia et al's human followers.

> [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.
That "... in the seas *now* ..." is an annoying little itch. Of course, in
UOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in
Typhon's day.
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From: Josh Caswell <jandcaswell at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:34:03 +0000

I wonder if anything can be taken from what we see with Baldanders
(separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea.  Perhaps it is
an issue of growth, both of size and power; the walls may have once been
thought to have been enough or maybe it was known that they were only a
minor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.

Of course it also seemed to me that Jonas, while more knowledgeable than
Severian, was also still much in the dark on the exact root cause of the
construction of the wall.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Mr Thalassocrat
<thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>wrote:

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:45:34 +0000

> defense against Abaia et al's human followers.

Jonas said: "You were correct when you said Erebus and Abaia are as great as
mountains, and I admit that I was surprised you knew it. Most people lack
the imagination to conceive of anything so large, and think them no bigger
than houses or ships. Their actual size is so great that while they remain
on this world they can never leave the water - their own weight would crush
them. You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or
tossing boulders about. But by their thoughts they enlist servants, and they
fling them against all rules that rival their own."

I don't know if the sea monsters grew bigger over the years, as Baldanders
did, so that they weren't so large when the Wall was first built that it
would be useless against them, or if the Wall was effective only against
man-sized foes under their control. Either way, the point I wanted to make
is that Jonas's statements seem to indicate that the Wall was built before
Typhon's time, and its purpose was to thwart the sea monsters' ambitions.

> UOTNS and the susbequent cycle volumes, Abaia etc infest the seas in

Yeah, annoying, and Cyriaca's story about the founding of the library,
together with what that doctor who looked Sev over after he got zapped by
that big gun had to say ("This coast is quake prone, as the old records
indicate clearly enough--praise to our monarch, by the way, for having them
brought here--" [URTH, 259] ), suggest that Typhon was the ruler who caused
the curtain wall to be built around the collected writings, and the curtain
wall is made of the same material as the Wall.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:05:56 +0000

> minor or more correctly temporary dissuasion to those from the sea.

I had the same thought. <g>

And an afterthought: Those long sections of the Wall down south, where there
are no Ascians, makes more sense if the Wall was originally intended to
thwart another foe, perhaps one that came from the seas to either side of
the continent.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:31:28 +0000

On 6/10/2010 4:05 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> I had the same thought.<g>
>

The Wall may have been built to hold back the sea itself; the gate 
tunnels are easily sealed and presumably big, heavy slabs concealed 
inside can be driven deep into the river's bed to close the river 
ingress and egress against the deep water pressure.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:43:55 +0000

Typhon - or whoever - was trying to mitigate global cataclysm.

Remember, in his mind, Typhon is doing good.

There is an old idea of global floods, that sea level would rise all over
the World at the same time.

There doesn't seem to be enough water for this, but back in the day the
idea was seriously proposed for a while.

So if this was what was happening, building a huge wall around a large
area might work for saving a significant proportion of the World's
population.

.

>>> (separate and together with) and the other giants of the sea.  Perhaps
>>> it
>> is

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:45:15 +0000

Playing the riddle game sharpens up the thought processes, doesn't it?

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:40:03 +0000

On 6/9/2010 2:47 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> That section of text also strongly suggests that the

I believe Typhon is doing some Yoda-speak here. He is saying there are 
powers in the sea that NOW CONSIDER THEMSELVES RULERS and he'll sort 
them out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill 
Reis in AEG.)
Anyway, we know that the monster Scylla at least was around at the time 
of the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it 
against her father.

J.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 04:53:29 +0000

> them out tout de suite. (There's some pattern-matching here with Bill

Probably so. And I have little doubt that he could have dispatched them at
least as easily as the U.S. Navy could have dealt with the Squid God. Anyone
who could build the _Whorl_ and manufacture hundreds of thousands of chem
soldiers would have little trouble with sea monsters; and the Ascians, if
they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to
him.

> of the Whorl's launch, because Typhon's daughter conspired with it

Yeah, but that may have involved a little retrofitting.

The Wall of Nessus just doesn't make much sense, no matter who built it, or
when or why. I think it is one of those things that just have to be accepted
for the sake of the story, like FTL spaceships, time corridors, ghosts and
spirit travel.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 05:39:22 +0000

> they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to

Do we know for sure that Typhon built the Whorl, or did he appropriate 
it the way he did everything else on Urth when he set up his capital there?

> for the sake of the story, like FTL spaceships, time corridors, ghosts and

But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object.

---

From: Josh Caswell <jandcaswell at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:09:25 +0000

> But those all have plot functions - The Wall is just a Big Dumb Object.
Well let's face it this is Wolfe we are talking about, perhaps it is just a
metaphor to show the separation of Nessus (and by that measure Severian)
from the rest of Urth as all the scattered places are separated from one
another.  I doubt he just meant it to be there just to be there.
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:20:31 +0000

I like the idea of a flood wall.

Of course, I would.

.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:31:22 +0000

The flood wall theory does not explain the soldiers (either their 
presence or their location) in Severian's day.

One thing has not been addressed. Presumably there has been social and 
political decay since Typhon's time, as the Commonwealth shrank from 
near-global (correct?) to almost a city-state. This is all you really 
need to know to explain the Wall and the curtain wall, whether one 
approaches it from a rational or a thematic perspective. The identity of 
a few individual enemies is not important; the people and aristocracy of 
the Commonwealth, such as they are, have always been at least potential 
enemies of the state. Typhon was probably at least somewhat paranoid anyway.

The Wall suggests ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and Byzantium; 
therefore it is intended to suggest ancient Greece and the Dark Ages and 
Byzantium, pointing both to Earth's future/deep past and to its 
historical counterpart(s).

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> ---
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> Virus Database (VPS): 100610-1, 06/10/2010
> Tested on: 6/11/2010 7:13:20 AM
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> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
>

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:36:02 +0000

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>

> they were even around in Typhon's era, would have been less than fleas to

I agree - the sea monsters may have great powers, but we clearly know that 
Typhon was concerned with other issues.  If he was beleaguered by Abaia, 
Erebus and Co., he would hardly have devoted resources to building the 
Whorl.  And we know from his own words that the crisis he faced was the 
rapid diminution of light and heat from the Sun.

Oddly enough, none of this stuff has been an issue for me - perhaps because 
I don;t read carefully enough.  in the first place, I totally don't remember 
the "now" in "powers in the sea", and in the second, I never got the 
impression that the wall was so enormous.  I don't remember seeing any 
figures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty high.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Pedro Pereira <domus_artemis at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:18:26 +0000

There was also the idea that the Wall was an old particle accelerator, although I personaly never found any evidence for it, logical or otherwise.
 
> From: gerryq at indigo.ie
> To: urth at lists.urth.net
> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:36:02 +0100
> Subject: Re: (urth) Wall of Nessus
> 
> 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:14:34 +0000

> presence or their location) in Severian's day.

They guard the entrances to the Wall's innards as well as serving as 
gate security, customs, etc.  Just like air bases have MPs serving as 
traffic cops despite writing tickets having nothing to do with strategic 
bombing.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:39:57 +0000

>>> ...after Typhon was revived on the mountain he speaks as if the monsters in the
>>> oceans were news to him ("There are powers in the seas now who would rule. [SWORD, chap. XXVI] ), but that's the way it goes.
>>>        
>> them out tout de suite.
> Probably so.[snip] Anyone who could build the_Whorl_  and manufacture
> hundreds of thousands of chem soldiers would have little trouble with
> sea monsters; and the Ascians, if they were even around in Typhon's era,
> would have been less than fleas to him.
>    

I guess what I'm saying is that I think Typhon's statement only 
emphatically implies that Typhon is able to know telepathically (through 
some self-maintaining mechanisms) that the monsters have established 
themselves as lords on Earth and that he considers them pretenders to 
their thrones.

His statement doesn't _really_ imply that the sea monsters were not 
around during his time. His conversation with Severian does not suggest 
that they were not around even before Typhon (or arriving around the 
same time) as treacherous and incursive forces. As always, they required 
willing Earth-born allies and servants in order to be genuine powers, 
and those servants were much more exposed to the Autarch's wrath than 
the monsters were themselves (ala Typhon's daughter). Even in AEG, the 
governments are not directly ruled by the Storm King in the way that the 
Ascian government seems to be directed by Erebus. It's tricky business 
to rule the land when you can't leave the water.

When the Autarch was strong and Earth technology was advanced they would 
not have been able to establish their power beyond their physical reach, 
so Typhon did not need to extend his own power to their remote locations 
in order to wipe them out utterly (which even Typhon might not have been 
able to do).

Yes, I realize that it is not a big deal either way.

J.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:38:23 +0000

> it the way he did everything else on Urth when he set up his capital
there?

Yes, he built it. It is mentioned all through LS.

> presence or their location) in Severian's day.

Right. Not to mention that it failed to stop the flood. <g> And what mighty
ruler in the distant past knew of and desired to attempt to thwart a massive
future flood?

> enemies of the state. Typhon was probably at least somewhat paranoid

With good reason. "It was a period of great confusion as well. My
astronomers had told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too
slowly, in fact, for the change to be noticeable in a human lifetime. They
were wrong. The heat of the world declined by nearly two parts in a thousand
over a few years, then stabilized. Crops failed, and there were famines and
riots. I should have left then." (SWORD, chap. XXV)

And: "This world, the most ancient of all, I made my capital. That was an
error, because I lingered too long when disaster came. By the time I would
have escaped, escape was no longer open to me-those to whom I had given
control of such ships as could reach the stars had fled in them, and I was
besieged on this mountain." (ibid., chap. XXVI)

He was besieged by the common people of Urth, mostly local people. But the
mountain was far north of Nessus and its Wall, so the Wall can have been no
comfort to him there at all.

> historical counterpart(s).

Which is, I think, another way of saying, "The Wall is just a Big Dumb
Object", as Jeff put it, in the context of the Urth Cycle.

> figures, but I always imagined it as maybe ten metres thick and twenty
high.

The Wall is improbably huge. See the part where Sev and Agia neared it for
the avern duel (chapters XXV, XXVII).

-Roy

---

From: Josh Caswell <jandcaswell at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:01:43 +0000

>Tons of wall stuff
-By other people

The wall could just be a wall.

Of course I thought the Wall, the soldiers, its mystery, all of it was just
a left relic that showed the ability of the old generations to do things
like build improbably huge walls and carve their faces into mountains or
whatever.  It is a link to the past, as everything that has been left is
(the machinery etc) and it's exact function is unknown to everyone in the
present day.
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:27:38 +0000

> Right. Not to mention that it failed to stop the flood.<g>  And what mighty
Didn't Abaia's followers know of it? Wasn't that an important key in 
their loyalty?

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 02:07:24 +0000

As the theater troupe passes thorugh the wall, they meet Jonah
who offers to join their conversation and enlighten them further
about the Wall. He tells a story about how Urth's ancient rulers
feared nothing but their own people. The story then goes on to 
describe a woman who brought an interstellar handful of black 
beans which she threatens to throw into the ocean and thus destroy
the world.
 
The story would seem to continue but is interupted by the "affair
at the gate" which ends the first book. But what we are given might seem 
to imply the wall was built in response to the threat which figuratively 
grew from alien black beans thrown in the ocean, i.e. the megatherians.
 
If the Ascians are the Abaia-inspired threat from the north, the 
pale warriors of Erebus would be the likely threat from the south,
necessitating complete enclosure. 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 04:33:39 +0000

> fling them against all rules that rival their own."

Just on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' actually
meant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I think it was
clearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos about why the
half-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence of the wall itself.

Jonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in the
olden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the populace.
Some people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, eventually returning.
One woman came back with magic seeds, defied the rulers and on being
condemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The chaos at the gate prevents
Jonas from finishing. (I think I've remembered all of that correctly.)

So how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the seeds
leads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does *that* in turn lead to the
man-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned some of the
populace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the man-beasts as
creatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the lure of Abaia etc.

FWIW.

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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 05:17:52 +0000

This suggests to me that the Wall was there for the soldiers more than 
the reverse; the soldiers didn't happen to take over the Wall as their 
barracks, because it was built as their barracks. This theory combines a 
response to fear of external enemies with a response to fear of internal 
enemies. I like it.

If the Wall was also simply meant to overawe, that might be even more 
effective against the people than against the Ascians et al.

Mr Thalassocrat wrote:
>
>
> Just on a different tack, I think it's easy to miss what Jonas' 
> actually meant to explain in his interrupted story at the gate. I 
> think it was clearly offered in answer to Sev's question to Talos 
> about why the half-beast guards in the wall, not about the existence 
> of the wall itself.
>  
> Jonas starts on his story, explaining that the citadel was built in 
> the olden days by the rulers of Urth to protect themselves against the 
> populace. Some people then left Urth to go amongst the stars, 
> eventually returning. One woman came back with magic seeds, defied the 
> rulers and on being condemned by them, cast the seeds the sea. The 
> chaos at the gate prevents Jonas from finishing. (I think I've 
> remembered all of that correctly.)
>  
> So how would have Jonas' story ended? Presumably the casting of the 
> seeds leads to the presence of Abaia et al. How does *that* in turn 
> lead to the man-beasts? My guess goes like this: Abaia et al suborned 
> some of the populace; the rulers could trust nobody; they created the 
> man-beasts as creatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the 
> lure of Abaia etc.
>  
> FWIW.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 07:13:21 +0000

> Jonas from finishing. (I think I've remembered all of that correctly.)

In his story, he doesn't actually say that she cast the beans into the sea,
just that she threatened to and was seized and torn to bits. But I suppose
we are to assume the beans were indeed cast. The rulers were said to fear
none but their own people, so they built the Citadel on a hill north of the
city, which was then not called Nessus. There is no mention of the curtain
wall around the Citadel at that time.

Okay so far. The Citadel was built to defend against the people. But that
doesn't explain the Wall. In Severian's time, most of the Commonwealth's
population seems to live *inside* the area circumscribed by the Wall.
Uncounted millions, anyway, so clearly the Wall was not intended to keep the
people away from the rulers in the Citadel at the center of the circular
walled city. It was intended to keep something *out* of the city.

> creatures with hard-wired loyalty not susceptible to the lure of Abaia
etc.

If that is the case, the Wall was built to defend against a threat from the
sea that didn't exist before the beans were cast, regardless of the nature
of the soldiers stationed within it. The improbable scale of the Wall
strikes me as all out of proportion to a threat the old rulers didn't take
seriously and that Typhon didn't seem concerned with. Since Typhon was the
last monarch, and the villagers and others Sev met in Typhon's era called
the city Nessus, he must have ruled many thousands of years after the Wall
was built and the city had grown so far up the river that the Citadel was no
longer north of it.

At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the mirrored sails on
The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and a few thousand
long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:54:03 +0000

> walled city. It was intended to keep something *out* of the city.

I think it is mad industry to debate the single purpose of the Wall. 
Even by the standards of Urthly civilization at its height, it must have 
been a tremendous undertaking beyond even an absolute Monarch's pockets 
and would have had to serve many purposes for many interested parties to 
be accomplished (jobs, defense, prestige, oppression, religion), and 
then who knows how many successive ages found other uses for it.

Millions living inside the Wall in Sev's time doesn't mean it wasn't 
better able to keep them out in ages previous.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:58:56 +0000

But that's in Severian's time.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:58:41 +0000

> necessitating complete enclosure. 		 	   		

"I asked who they are, Sieur. I know they're our enemies, that they live 
to the
north in the hot countries, and that they're said to be enslaved by 
Erebus. But
who are they?" CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (CHAP XXV)

Although the Ascians come from the North and Erebus is based in 
Antarctica, they are actually the minions of Erebus.
Their name means "casting no shadow". They cast no shadow NOT because 
they are from the Equator (which they are not, or at least not 
entirely), but because they are from Erebus, whose name comes from the 
Greek elemental Titan who was "The Darkness of the Underworld".

J.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:06:57 +0000

> long" (p-103). Bah! That's a Big Dumb Object.

Too big.  I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is of 
ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

One problem with a wall several leagues in height is that it would be 
effectively enclosed as far as the bulk of the atmosphere is concerned; 
certainly that part of the atmosphere that carries moisture.  In the absence 
of large evaporative surfaces other than the Gyoll - and we are not told of 
any huge lakes - I would expect the climate of Nessus to be excessively dry. 
It would also be cut off from the general atmospheric circulation, including 
weather systems.

I would be surprised if the climate outside the Wall was not so different 
from that inside as to be worth remarking upon.  It is true that Severian 
does not mention the weather much.  There is fog at the start, I think, and 
a violent storm when he visits the stone town.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:35:40 +0000

> Too big.  I prefer to maintain my original assumption that the Wall is 
> of ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

One obstacle with the "several leagues" description is that that would 
make the wall at *least* 4.5 miles high. That's the height of the 
Himalayas -- not Everest but the higher peaks in the range. Meanwhile, I 
think it is safe to presume that the citadel is not far above sea-level.

Someone recently mentioned this quote by Severian:

"No. I've spent my life so near the middle of the city that the Wall was 
no more than a dark line on the northern horizon when we looked from the 
glass-roofed room at the top of our tower. I am astounded, I admit." 
SHADOW XXXV

What would the radius of the city need to be for a wall of that height 
to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

J.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:16:36 +0000

> to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

There's a distance-to-horizon calculator here:

	http://boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm

a 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles.  Perhaps league 
has an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been 
up late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as 
three furlongs instead of three miles?  A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be 
visible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a day.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:35:26 +0000

We did fifty mile marches all the time in the Army.

60 would be pushing it. It wouldn't be a leisurely walk.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:41:05 +0000

> Greek elemental Titan who was "The Darkness of the Underworld".

Abaia and Erebus are mentioned as if in league together on several 
occasions. Perhaps Abaia is the slightly humanlike of the two who 
marshals the more humanoid forces of the Ascians and undines to pursue 
Erebus' strategies.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:49:27 +0000

I always thought Abaia was calling the shots.  He's the one who's set up as
the "enemy" of the New Sun, right?

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

> occasions. Perhaps Abaia is the slightly humanlike of the two who marshals
> the more humanoid forces of the Ascians and undines to pursue Erebus'
> strategies.
>
> --
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:29:55 +0000

On 6/14/2010 10:16 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> has an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had 
> been up late the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a 
> league as three furlongs instead of three miles?  A Wall 3/8 mile tall 
> would be visible for 59.9 statute miles...still too long to walk in a 
> day.

I presumed that Wolfe would use the "Roman" league which is 2.22 km or 
1.4 miles. It's still to tall for "several leagues".

J.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:41:07 +0000

> ordinary height and Severian made a typo.

It's not a typo. Sev also went on about the Wall's improbable height
(clouds; the few birds that could fly over it) just as the theater troupe
got to the gate. The gate itself is like a huge cave in it.

> to disappear beyond the horizon at ground level?

Mantis made some calculations along these lines, based on scattered comments
in the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2.

> 1.4 miles. It's still to tall for "several leagues".

FWIW, in an appendix to CLAW, Wolfe said that his use of league means a
distance of "about three miles".

-Roy

---

From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:12:03 +0000

A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the sun
was rising or setting.

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:13:31 +0000

On 6/14/2010 1:12 PM, Jack Smith wrote:
> A 9-mile-high wall would cast a long shadow across the city while the 
> sun was rising or setting.

True, but any mountain range would technically do the same thing.

---

From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:43:49 +0000

But a mountain peak would be far away, while the top of the wall is right at
the city.  When the sun is less than 30 degrees above the horizon, the
shadow of a 9 mile wall would be over 15 miles long.  You would have a
shorter day if you lived near the wall.  Real estate values would suffer.

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:02:51 +0000

I think Severian alludes to this.

Jack Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net 
> <mailto:rclackey at stic.net>> wrote:
>
>     > > At one point in URTH Sev, going on about the size of the
>     mirrored sails
>     on
>     > > The Ship, said that the Wall was "a few leagues in height and
>     a few
>     > > thousand
>     To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ---
> Virus Database (VPS): 100614-0, 06/14/2010
> Tested on: 6/14/2010 2:12:49 PM

---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:38:44 +0000

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

> a 1-mile Wall would be visible for 97.8 statute miles.  Perhaps league has
> an ambiguous meaning similar to chiliad; if young Severian had been up late
> the night before units class, perhaps he misheard a league as three furlongs
> instead of three miles?  A Wall 3/8 mile tall would be visible for 59.9
> statute miles...still too long to walk in a day.

This is where I get to. Sev says that the highest flying birds such as
eagles, wild geese etc might be able to fly over the wall, or something like
that. Wikipedia trawling suggests a Wall height of something less than
25,000ft. This is about the minimum height consistent with "several
leagues", even for a 1.5 mile league.

At 25,000ft the Wall peeps over the horizon at a distance of about 200
miles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say) 300ft
torturers' tower, it's around 175 miles.

Sev travels for something less than 4 days to get to the Wall, by my
reckoning:

- First day ends sharing a bed with Baldanders.
- Second day ends sharing a bed with Dorcas in the barracks, after the fight
at the Sanguinary Field.
- Third day ends with Talos' company, after the play.
- Arrives at the Wall during the fourth day.

Especially given that he does a lot of non-travelling stuff along the way
(and has Dorcas as companion for half of the journey), a rate of ~50 miles
per day doesn't seem very likely.

If you want to make a consistent story out of this, maybe the thing to
question is Sev's estimate of the height - how could he do this confidently?

If the Wall is "only" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from the
Citadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable.

But it's probably not worth too much effort trying to make sense of a BDO :)

Oh, another thing: Sev says he could see the Wall to the north from the top
of the tower, but what about east and west?
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:36:50 +0000

On 6/14/2010 8:38 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:
> eagles, wild geese etc might be able to fly over the wall, or something
> like that. Wikipedia trawling suggests a Wall height of something less
> than 25,000ft. This is about the minimum height consistent with "several

Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, 
and eagles are endangered even today. There could be a similar shortage 
of the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them 
from flyers.

> miles, for somebody at sea level. For somebody at the top of a (say)
> 300ft torturers' tower, it's around 175 miles.

> If the Wall is "only" a mile high, then it's maybe 75 miles or so from
> the Citadel, and ~20 miles per day seems kind of reasonable.

The increased vantage height of the towers should let the Wall be 
visible from *farther* away, rather than constraining the distance closer.

---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:47:50 +0000

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

> The increased vantage height of the towers should let the Wall be visible
> from *farther* away, rather than constraining the distance closer.
>
Argh! I'd worry about early senility if I couldn't remember making stupid
mistakes like that even when I was young.

So figure around 125 miles away, for a mile high Wall just visible from a
300 ft torturers' tower. I guess that's probably too far, so you'd probably
have to cut the down the Wall height even further.
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 04:18:06 +0000

----- Original Message ----

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>

>in the books about the Wall's height, in the Wall entry in LU2.
...

He estimated the Wall's height at 3000 feet (taking the flight ceiling for waterfowl to be 4,000 feet).  He didn't mention the quotation from /TUotNS/ about "a few leagues".  Also, he took the radius of the Wall to be 10 leagues according to the map in /Plan(e)t Engineering/, which shows the Citadel at the center of the Wall.  Thus he couldn't reconcile this with Severian's "black line" comment.

With that radius, the circumference of the Wall is about 63 leagues, not "thousands".

What does Severian know about the heights of flying birds?  Part of his education in the Matachin Tower?

Why doesn't any of us have /Plan(e)t Engineering/?  Including me?  Apparently it's also got a map of the Commonwealth.  If Michael Andre-Driussi's map in /LU2/ is based on that, by the way, then Nessus is near the west coast of South America and is therefore not Buenos Aires, and the mountains are not identical to the Andes.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 04:39:42 +0000

> Wolfe makes a point of many Earthly species being extinct by Sev's time, and eagles are endangered even
> today.

Fortunately, this last is not true in general.  The bald eagle, golden eagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts of the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN, though populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some places, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a number of years.  There a few endangered eagle species, many of them restricted to islands, but I can't find a good list.

The Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and should naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles.

> There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps from Exultants overhunting them from flyers.

A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.

I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt.  It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 05:04:58 +0000

Hermann Goering is the father of modern conservation.

Good old Fats Meier.

.

> From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>
>
>> and eagles are endangered even
>> today.
>
> Fortunately, this last is not true in general.  The bald eagle, golden
> eagle, and white-tailed eagle (the widespread species in the cooler parts
> of the northern hemisphere) are all rated as Least Concern by the IUCN,
> though populations of all of them have been reduced or eliminated in some
> places, and the bald eagle was listed as endangered in the lower 48 for a
> number of years.  There a few endangered eagle species, many of them
> restricted to islands, but I can't find a good list.
>
> The Commonwealth has teratorns, which are much bigger than eagles and
> should naturally be much rarer, so I'd think it has eagles.
>
>> There could be a similar shortage of the highest flying gesse, perhaps
>> from Exultants overhunting them from flyers.
>
> A great image, but if you're going to overhunt waterfowl, shooting them
> when they're flying low or walking or swimming is a lot easier.
>
> I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in
> the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt.  It's the
> species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see
> as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 05:06:11 +0000

Good old Fats Meier.

Not actually, but close enough.

The laws he wrote for Germany are still on the books.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:47:43 +0000

> I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt.  It's the species that the poor can kill for food or money,…

That's at odds with Wolfe's worldiews and other stories from the period, 
like "Beautyland". He considered/considers non-Christian societies to be 
tainted and given to cruelty, and we know exultant debutantes like their 
kicks vicious. They already have to keep the flyers tethered way up 
there, what fun to throw some bread out the hatch until you've got lots 
of the buggers waiting to be zapped.

Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into 
possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars, and 
their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:42:28 +0000

>> I'm no expert, but I think that in our universe, aristocrats have been in the forefront of conservation of the species they like to hunt.  It's the
>> species that the poor can kill for food or money, or the ones people see as threats (e.g., to livestock), that get hunted to extinction.

> That's at odds with Wolfe's worldiews and other stories from the period, like "Beautyland". He considered/considers non-Christian societies to be tainted and > given to cruelty, and we know exultant debutantes like their kicks vicious. They already have to keep the flyers tethered way up there, what fun to throw some > bread out the hatch until you've got lots of the buggers waiting to be zapped.

I'm not talking about warm fuzzy conservation, and anyway we know many exultants like to hunt.  But as Brunians pointed out, you don't have to be a nice person to want to assure yourself and your descendants a supply of animals to kill.  That kind of conservation was pretty much the original in civilization, I think, and it's still very powerful (Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc.).

(But see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houbara_Bustard#Relation_with_humans and references therein.)
  
> Then again , there are some number of hungry folk who come into possession of energy weapons in the course of any number of wars,

There's more than one war?

> and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl.  It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.

It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 03:38:44 +0000

> There's more than one war?

Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3.

> I don't think high flight would ever be a liability for waterfowl.  It just wouldn't help anywhere near as much against energy weapons as against bows.

It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher 
they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, 
or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.

> It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting, or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.

There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery 
indicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require 
it. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to 
produce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to 
someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing 
as geese while spying for the enemy.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:47:17 +0000

Mmm. A sooty drumstick sounds delicious. So does an ice cream drumstick.

Sorry to bounce back for a moment here, but...

I've always felt the wall, as described in UotNS, was quite implausible as well.

Using UotNS's quote as canon, Wall of Nessus = 9 miles high by 9,000 miles long.

The stratosphere is about 12 miles up. So 9 miles up is consistent with birds not being able to fly over it (highest bird flight on Earth was a vulture recorded at 7 miles up), but makes for a really hard sell visually.

Also, at 9,000 miles in length, if the Wall were unwrapped it would encompass more than 1/3 of our Earth at the equator.

Another reference... the entirety of Texas's border equals only 3,800 miles.

And here's the quote, which was referenced earlier...

"...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of the Universe")

...ryan

On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.
> 
> There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical power, assuming the weapons require it. Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food, and even a sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as geese while spying for the enemy.
> 
> 
> --

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:24:04 +0000

> "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tum…

And yet, Severian was able to cross this continent within a shift worth 
of air, as I said to IIRC Roy the last time this came around. There's 
just no consistent detail on the size of the Wall.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:28:44 +0000

So it's truly a Big Object.

But how Dumb is it? That's the question ...

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100615-2, 06/15/2010
> Tested on: 6/16/2010 1:49:42 AM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:21:10 +0000

Forgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out  
Typhon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to cause  
harm?

I can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be  
critical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked the  
idea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at  
immigration reform.

...ryan

On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:06:17 +0000

The discrepancies that have been uncovered could fit into any or all of at least 3 categories:

Unintentional error (oops!)
Conscious error (So what? It sounds cool.)
Intentional error (Bwa ha ha!)

Only the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation?

Truly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different.

--- On Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Subject: Re: (urth)
 Wall of Nessus
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:21 AM

Forgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out Typhon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to cause harm?

I can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be critical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked the idea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at immigration reform.

...ryan

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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 03:04:46 +0000

I guess, in the words of Thecla...

"One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure a foundation as a contradiction."

Big dumb wall, after all?

...ryan

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 03:08:33 +0000

Ain Elohim.

.

>> Only the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's incomplete
>> attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and his life
>> becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the relationship between
>> the Translator and his text correspondingly more problematic. What does
>> either one know about estimating height and distance? Why would they
>> inflate what they saw? How would their story benefit from obfuscation?
>>
>> Truly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive close,
>> quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about his travels
>> in far Cathay, the results would not be much different.
>>
>> Forgive me if this hasbeen asked, but was it needed to keep out Typhon?
>> Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to cause harm?
>>
>> I can't reimagine a scenario where a 9 mile high wall would be critical
>> to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked the idea of a 9
>> mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at immigration reform.
>>
>> ...ryan
>>

---

From: Rob <roobarr at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 03:20:09 +0000

Some quick calulations on the height and length of the wall.
If we believe the 9 miles (2.6 Leagues) high by 9000 miles (2606 leagues)
long this matches the "a few leagues in height and a few thousand long."
However we are talking about a wall approximately one and a half times the
height of everest from sea level with a radius of 1432 miles assuming it is
circular and encompasses about 6 million square miles. If the citadel is
assumed to be at the centre then this is a ~20-30 days brisk walk to reach
the wall.
Also, using some planar trig (I've never learnt to adapt to spherical
geometry) and a bit of logic the wall, even at that size, should be
invisible over the curve of the earth from the centre.
I've always thought this was a conversion issue from the "translation" as
even using archaic measurements such as miles (just to help the yanks)
introduces confusion and uncertainty. Surely the translator working on a
foreign language with alien measurement systems could have simply
miscalculated completely.
Rob
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:34:09 +0000

On 6/16/2010 6:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
>> "...just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire continent
>> of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of Nessus, a few leagues
>> in height and a few thousand long, might have been the tumbledown
>> fence of a sheepfold..." (Urth of the New Sun, Chap. XIV "The End of
>> the Universe")
>

I recall that the green Lune is said to be 50,000 leagues away, which we 
have generally taken to mean 150,000 miles and indicate that it has 
moved closer somehow. Maybe instead, the units conversion error is in 
the past of urth, in all or in part, so that learned people of 
Severian's time are parroting an error made popular by some respected 
historian and "G.W." is caught up in it as well.

This could mean that the Wall's dimensions are overestimated by a factor 
of 5:3, which is still pretty big, or it could mean that a measurement 
that G.W. has chosen to translate as "league" has different meanings or 
different idioms for measurements in space than for measurements on the 
ground, or for vertical height vs length.

(It also occurs to me that if the moon's orbit hasn't changed, it's 
gravity and natural lack of atmosphere probably haven't either. In fact, 
the low gravity and lack of weather make it an ideal candidate for being 
largely domed over, similar to the Botanical Gardens.)

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:03:22 +0000

This is like pretend for you people?

I don't understand this phenomenon.

.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:06:19 +0000

I think we should assume Gene Wolfe has considered this, as the Wall is quite a present part of the text, no?

Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part.

...ryan

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:12:47 +0000

Several of the list members enjoy arguing - can you believe it - about
things in the book, what they mean, whether there is science behind them,
whether they are real.

This is almost as much fun as the religious arguments.

Personally, I never argue.

It is an unhealthy practice.

.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:54:40 +0000

So I was re-reading Shadow, and noticed something I had previously written off...

"I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer."
(Shadow of the Torturer, Chap. 29, Agilus)

That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?

Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

...ryan
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:01:02 +0000

> Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong. Could be a bit of n00b-itis on my part.

The notional translator of the BotNS signs his notes at the end of 
Volume I as "G.W." G.W. is a fictional Gene Wolfe, very similar to but 
much less informed than the author. This allows the author additional 
license to feint and mislead with errors from an unreviewed and in fact 
unreviewable translation to compound those of an unreliable narrator.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:22:29 +0000

On 6/17/2010 1:54 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
> "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me,
> clawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no
> longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away -
> not into a chair this time but against the wall. *Her head struck the
> stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the
> sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer.*"
> That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer
> would be very tinny and unusual of a human skull, don't you think?
>
> Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the
> nature of these odd twins and their masks upon masks?

Perhaps she has a plate in her head? Sev's comments on Jonas indicate 
that functional prosthetics are not particularly remarkable in the 
Commonwealth.

Or she could just have a sturdy, thick skull that makes a dull clicking 
noise like this mason's hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_LAumupL2U&feature=related

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:35:37 +0000

Oh yeah.

That breaks it open.

.

> longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain. I pushed her away - not
> into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone,
> and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as
> sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer."
> ...ryan_______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:39:01 +0000

Which do you think is more likely, Wilson?

This is not my turn, by the way.

This is an ordinary question.

.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:08:22 +0000

Indeed!

Ryan Dunn wrote:
>> Only the last is of any real interest. Certainly, Severian's 
>> incomplete attempt to present a flat, simple version of himself and 
>> his life becomes a little more flawed as a result, and the 
>> relationship between the Translator and his text correspondingly more 
>> problematic. What does either one know about estimating height and 
>> distance? Why would they inflate what they saw? How would their story 
>> benefit from obfuscation?
>>
>> Truly the Wall is a Wonder, and it cannot be expected to survive 
>> close, quantitative scrutiny. If the Translator were to write about 
>> his travels in far Cathay, the results would not be much different.
>>
>> --- On *Wed, 6/16/10, Ryan Dunn /<ryan at liftingfaces.com 
>> <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>>     From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com
>>     <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>>
>>     To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net
>>     <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>>     Typhon? Was it supposed to? What else? Any megatherians want to
>>     cause harm?
>>
>>     critical to Nessus. And I don't want to believe Wolfe just liked
>>     the idea of a 9 mike high wall. Unless it was a sarcastic jab at
>>     immigration reform.
>>
>>     ...ryan
>>
>>     Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net <http://www.urth.net/>
>>
> Virus Database (VPS): 100616-1, 06/16/2010
> Tested on: 6/16/2010 11:06:43 PM

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:29:43 +0000

> The notional translator of the BotNS signs his notes at the end of Volume I as "G.W." G.W. is a fictional Gene
> Wolfe, very similar to but much less informed than the author. This allows the author additional license to feint > and mislead with errors from an unreviewed and in fact unreviewable translation to compound those of an
> unreliable narrator.

Not to mention an excuse for him--has he ever used it?--or readers when he makes a mistake.  I feel certain the dimensions of the Wall given in TUotNS are a mistake.  Second choice: the Wall goes around the House Absolute as well as Nessus, and much of it is underground. :-)

Rob: I'm impressed enough by Brunians's 50-mile hikes when he was a soldier, but 1400 miles in 20 days would be in the world-record range, not a brisk walk.  See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Heukemes

Not that it matters.  The only reasonable way this reader can think about the wall is as a couple hundred miles around, as shown in the author's map in /Plan(e)t Engineeriing/, not thousands.  I think I'm agreeing with you.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:33:33 +0000

> "I slapped her wrist, perhaps harder than I should, and she flew at me, clawing for my eyes as
> Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and
> pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the
> stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as
> the tap of a mason's hammer."

> That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a mason's hammer would be very tinny and
> unusual of a human skull, don't you think?
>

> Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue as to the nature of these odd twins and

Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways.  I took this to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding.  It's horrifying.  But I don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.

Jerry Friedman

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:42:34 +0000

Have you ever heard someone fall down and hit their head?

It does not sound like the description.

.

>> clawing for my eyes as
>> sound was as sharp as
>> would be very tinny and
> Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of a
> mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways.  I took this to
> mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between two
> hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding.  It's horrifying.  But I
> don't see it as suggesting a metallic sound.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:15:50 +0000

Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her  
abundant head of hair.

I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second  
mask.

Anywho.

...ryan

On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

>>> Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the  
>>> thoughts
>>> of imprisonment and

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:19:38 +0000

This is getting ridiculous.

Agila must be human -- she has to be related to Severian -- after all,
he's sexually attracted to her...

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:
> Yes. And he made a point to say it made this sound DESPITE her abundant head
> of hair.
>
> I just can't help but wonder, ESP when coupled with Agilus's second mask.
>
> Anywho.
>
> ...ryan
>
>>> mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took this to
>>> hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. ?It's horrifying. ?But I
>>> ? ? _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:29:27 +0000

What's ridiculous?

I always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless 
of the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, "The sound 
of her head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone"?

Head = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, 
is the only open question.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:31:45 +0000

Well I was using actual description here rather than the inference of  
omnipresent incest.

There's a ribbon visible on the side of Agilus's face like the one  
with the skull mask (about as overt a clue as he could have written  
without being Dan Brown), he and Agia are twins (by logic, they have  
to be of the same make-up whether human or otherwise), and when Agia's  
head hits the wall it sounds sharp as a hammer hitting stone, despite  
an abundant head full of hair.

Is it so ridiculous to posit something's fishy? I'm on high alert on  
this read thru in case there are any more oddities I've missed. If  
anyone has any off hand, of course........

...ryan

On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:19 PM, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com>  
wrote:

>> abundant head
>>>>> pain. I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against  
>>>>> the
>>>>> wall. Her head struck the

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:33:29 +0000

I am reminded of some things Alan Moore said about _Watchmen_ when it
was first coming out.

The first thing he said was that everything in _Watchmen_ means something.

The second thing, upon seeing the detailed analysis being performed in
the fan press and especially on the Intartoobs, was "...but not
everything means _much_."

I suspect that we are often guilty of overanalyzing details in Wolfe's work.

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> What's ridiculous?
>
> I always read this as a description of metal hitting stone, regardless of
> the explanation. Otherwise why did Wolfe essentially say, "The sound of her
> head hitting stone was like the sound of solid metal hitting stone"?
>
> Head = metal. Could one have a more obvious clue? Clue to what, exactly, is
> the only open question.
>
>>>>>> ? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a
>>>>>> mason's hammer
>>>>>> would be very tinny and
>>>>>> ? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a clue
>>>>>> as to the
>>>>> ? ?_______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:33:35 +0000

>Between the Age of Myth and Severian's time? Probably at least 2-3.

Oh, okay, could well be.

>>> and their line-of-sight range may indeed make high flight a survival liability.

Do we have evidence of weapons with a line-of-sight range?  Evidence that there are many?  When Severian is in battle, it's clear that such weapons are quite rare right where he is.

> It's the same math as the wall's height vs sight distance; the higher they fly, the more acres of hungry
> infantrymen, impoverished dimarchi, or mounted dwarves can draw a bead on them.

There's also math about visibility and hittability.  A Ruddy-headed Goose (apparently the most migratory goose in temperate South America) 4000 feet away would would subtend an angle of around 1.4 minutes of arc (beak to tip of tail).  That's a speck--a person with 20/20 vision can resolve two lines that are 1 minute of arc apart.  For comparison, the bullseye of a B-6 (CP) 50-yard slow-fire repair-center target from National Target appears to me to subtend about 2.5 minutes of arc at 50 yards.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9528/Product/B_6__CP__50_YARD_SLOW_FIRE_REPAIR_CENTER_TARGETS

or http://tinyurl.com/259kd2y

Hitting a moving overhead target the size of the goose, from a standing position, strikes me as a lucky shot--if you saw the goose in the first place.

>>From a mile away from ground zero, a goose 4000 feet up would be well over the horizon, as you point out, but pretty much invisible.

Back on topic: the mounted dwarfs definitely don't have weapons with a range of 4000 feet, or we wouldn't be reading this story.  The only weapons like that in the battle, as far as I recall, are the Ascian artillery.

>> It's not clear to me that the poor could recharge ex-military energy weapons enough to use for much hunting,
>> or that the weapons would leave much edible meat on a bird.
>
> There seem to be any number of places where still-running machinery indicates the presence of electrical
> power,

Places where people are likely to get a shot at a wild goose?  In fact, Severian crosses quite a bit of uninhabited and very sparsely inhabited territory with no electricity in sight.  It seems likely that there are big regions with no hunting pressure on game that's out of bowshot.

> assuming the weapons require it.

We know they can run out of charges, anyway.

> Meanwhile, the low edible yield encourages more to be killed to produce a given amount of food,

Assuming charges are so easy to get you can use one or more for a sooty drumstick instead of saving it for a baluchither or an alzabo or a brigand.  Severian refers to the charges of the irregulars' conti as "precious" (/Citadel/, Ch. XX).

> and even a
> sooty drumstick is a feast to someone who hasn't eaten in days. Besides, they might be anpiels posing as
> geese while spying for the enemy.

Quite true, quite true.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:37:51 +0000

I have no doubt about that. But when an author who persistently and 
deliberately confounds the reader's preconceptions about humans vs 
robots in his characters, his direct clue---plain as day---that 
someone's head is metallic cannot possibly be categorized as "not 
meaning much."

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:56:26 +0000

On 6/17/2010 10:33 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Interesting question, but it says the sound is as "sharp" as the tap of
> a mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. I took this
> to mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's between
> two hard surfaces, despite the apparent padding. It's horrifying. But I

Maybe it's a clue about the wall, rather than her head.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:10:36 +0000

This is conclusive.

Makes things how much simpler?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:11:37 +0000

> Agila must be human --

Why?

>                         she has to be related to Severian -- after all,

Oh, that's funny.

Dude.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:16:35 +0000

She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.

They are ship's robots.

Agia is Hethor's paracoita.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:17:32 +0000

This is often true.

Not this time.

.

>> of
>>>> abundant
>>>> head
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> mason's hammer, not that it sounds the same in all ways. ?I took
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> mean that the sound has a sudden attack and decay, since it's
>>>>>> between
>>>>>> two

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:18:54 +0000

Dan'l has a point: the principle of twincest must be satisfied.

But I think the fact that Agia and Agilus are twins already does that. 
Also, if I recall correctly, the two each pretended to be the other. 
Therefore, in a fuzzy way, Severian was attracted to both of them, thus 
linking him sexually with the "(un)holy" pair. What else is needed?

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100617-1, 06/17/2010
> Tested on: 6/17/2010 1:11:57 PM

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:36:21 +0000

OK - this works for me, and, along with Josh's point that Hethor is
known to be attracted to robots, has convinced me that this is at
least a plausible theory, if not quite a dead cert.

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:18 AM, David Stockhoff
<dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> But I think the fact that Agia and Agilus are twins already does that. Also,
> if I recall correctly, the two each pretended to be the other. Therefore, in
> a fuzzy way, Severian was attracted to both of them, thus linking him
> sexually with the "(un)holy" pair. What else is needed?
>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?she has to be related to Severian -- after all,
>>>>>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?That last line. Her head hitting the stone. The tap of a
>>>>>>> mason's
>>>>>>> hammer
>>>>>>> would be very tinny and
>>>>>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Am I reading into this line too much, or might this be a
>>>>>>> clue as to
>>>>>>> the

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:38:53 +0000

Not only is Hethor attracted to robots.

Agia was the girl in the box.

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:39:40 +0000

I'm lost.  The girl in the box?

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:46:42 +0000

Hethor's paracoita. I am not convinced of this but could be.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:56:43 +0000

I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if
she were, what does it matter?"   The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of
Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change
anything as far as the story is concerned?
My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a
Hierodule if you really want her to be.  It's the behavior of the characters
that's important, not their creature type.  That only seems to matter
insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot
explain anything?  I don't think so.

Paul

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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:01:59 +0000

Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She  
IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?

...ryan

On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote:

> I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be  
> "even if she were, what does it matter?"   The calde of Saltus / 
> could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful  
> ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is  
> concerned?
> My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug,  
> even a Hierodule if you really want her to be.  It's the behavior of  
> the characters that's important, not their creature type.  That only  
> seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior -  
> does her being a robot explain anything?  I don't think so.
>
> Paul
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes  
> <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com 
> > wrote:
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:18:07 +0000

In Long Sun, it seems pretty clear who are the robots and who are not, 
while on Urth, little is so clear.

I don't know how much of this can be explained by Urth history, given 
that Typhon had an array of robots available to him, that Hethor, as a 
star sailor, has access to all eras, and that on Urth, technology has 
been lost and patched and hidden.

Are Agila and Agia sex robots?

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com 
> <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> "even if she were, what does it matter?"   The calde of Saltus 
>> /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful 
>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins
>>     <john.watkins04 at gmail.com <mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>     > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <brunians at brunians.org
>>     <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>> wrote:
>>     >>
> Tested on: 6/17/2010 2:03:04 PM

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:18:53 +0000

Agia is definitely a robot, and of a particularly expensive kind. But
she was initially human. We can actually pinpoint the moment her
robofication begins, when Severian sees her outside the rag shop:

She wore a pavonine brocade gown of amazing richness and raggedness,
and as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist,
turning the skin there to palest gold.
TSOTT, chapter XVI

Dorcas is also a robot:

'He wears armor,' Dorcas called again. 'This man has not even a
shirt.' Her voice, always so soft before, rang in the twilight like a
bell.
TSOTT, chapter XXVII

Bells are metal, just like hammers. How much more of a clue do you
need? Of course, she's also Severian's grandmother so it follows that
he is a robot too.

> She and her brother are associated with Hethor, a sailor.

That must be why all those cogs and wires fell out when Severian cut
Agilus's head off.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:28:55 +0000

Funny!

Don't make the mistake of confusing metaphors and similes, however.

Tony Ellis wrote:
> Tested on: 6/17/2010 2:19:04 PM

---

From: Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:32:24 +0000

Sure, why not.  Or, if she were a vampire slug, it could be she wanted
Severian's sweet sweet blood.  Or, if she were a Hierodule, perhaps her
mission was to be his antagonist.  Or, if she were a human, perhaps she was
really angry he executed her brother.
The matter I am getting at is that for this to be at all interesting it
should explain something *better* than the more traditional (and reasonable)
view.

Paul

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

> Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS
> responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?
>
> ...ryan
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes < <danldo at gmail.com>
> danldo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:39 AM, John Watkins <<john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>> john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:38 PM, < <brunians at brunians.org>
>> brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> To post, write <urth at urth.net>urth at urth.net
>> >> Subscription/information: <http://www.urth.net>http://www.urth.net
>> >
>> >
>> > To post, write <urth at urth.net>urth at urth.net
>> > Subscription/information: <http://www.urth.net>http://www.urth.net
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>> To post, write <urth at urth.net>urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: <http://www.urth.net>http://www.urth.net
>>
> To post, write <urth at urth.net>urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: <http://www.urth.net>http://www.urth.net
>
>
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---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 20:57:21 +0000

> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

[...]

> Are Agila and Agia sex robots?

Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features revealed by decapitating Agilus.  He mentions blood, though.

And since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia looks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister.

Also, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of /Shadow/).  That would be real attention to detail in a robot.

People suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita.  However, Severian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Could explain her single-mindedness and the lengths she went to. She IS responsible for much of Severian's story arc early in the story, no?
> 
> ...ryan
> 
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com <mailto:pb.stuff at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>> I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even if she were, what does it matter?"   The calde of Saltus /could/ be a clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if you really want her to be.  It's the behavior of the characters that's important, not their creature type.  That only seems to matter insofar as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot explain anything?  I don't think so.
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com <mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:04:18 +0000

Hethor's paracoita.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:08:45 +0000

It means that there's starship crew undercover on Urth.

You don't find that interesting?

.

> <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:11:07 +0000

Gene calls robots 'chems'.

Does he call them that because they are mechanical?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:30:27 +0000

And your point?

Chems.

Not mechs.

.

> Severian failed to notice (or say anything about) any unusual features
> revealed by decapitating Agilus.  He mentions blood, though.
>
> And since Agilus is presumably not a robot, it seems very strange Agia
> looks so much like him, unless they're human brother and sister.
>
> Also, Agia is capable of turning pale (beginning of Ch. XXIII of
> /Shadow/).  That would be real attention to detail in a robot.
>
> People suggest below that Agia is Hethor's lost paracoita.  However,
> Severian doesn't mention the purple eyes that Hethor describes.
>
> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>> I suppose a relevant backdrop to this entire discussion might be "even
>>> if she were, what does it matter?"   The calde of Saltus /could/ be a
>>> clone of Typhon living out his life in blissful ignorance - but does
>>> that change anything as far as the story is concerned? My sense is that
>>> it doesn't - Agia can be a robot, a vampire slug, even a Hierodule if
>>> you really want her to be.  It's the behavior of the characters that's
>>> important, not their creature type.  That only seems to matter insofar
>>> as it might help explain their behavior - does her being a robot

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:22:48 +0000

The word "robot" should probably be abandoned completely. Wolfe's 
characters are simply either made or born, although there's probably an 
important distinction between cloned and manufactured. And the 
Translator tells us that the word "metal" doesn't always mean metal.

Would Severian know the difference?

However, I agree that Agilus, when slaughtered, appears to be flesh and 
blood---a lot of blood. Even if chems have blood, it would smell and 
flow differently. Severian would notice.
 
Perhaps Agilus and Agia are false names and they are not twins at all, 
one a chem and one a human. This is not as neat as if they were indeed 
twins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/17/2010 5:31:07 PM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:24:23 +0000

It would be a boring World if everyone agreed with me.

.

>>>> IS
>>>>> "even

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:32:59 +0000

>Does he call them that because they are mechanical?

"Chems are wonderful constructions, a race that we bios created long
ago, our own image in metal and synthetics."
LOTLS, chapter seven.

"No, no." Maytera Marble's one functioning hand gripped the arm of her
chair so tightly that the upholstery rose like dough between its metal
fingers.
EFTLL, chapter five

Auk was peering at the mass of mechanisms the plate had concealed. "I
see little specks of light."
Incus was triumphant. "...His primary cable has been severed, and
those are the ends of the fibres."
COTLS, chapter two

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:54:45 +0000

I did not remember that reference.

Thanks.

It does not nullify my hypothesis.

We used to call hydraulic fluid red juice, or cherry juice in the service.

That is because it is red, very much in the way blood is red.

There is a very slight difference in color.

I don't know that you'd notice, if you were focussed on bringing off as
difficult an act as a public execution with the attention to detail that
Severian brings to everything he does.

.

.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:11:09 +0000

[quotations on chems from BotLS]

> I did not remember that reference.

Here are two more:

"'It's not just reuniting the metal, Patera.  There are little tubes in 
there, tiny tubes, and wires, and things like threads--fibers, they're 
called--that pipe light.'"

EftLS, Ch. 2

"... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's] now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an 
elderly woman.  A short cylinder of silvery metal extended from its 
wrist.  'I lost some fluid,' she told him, 'but not very much. There are valves and things to control that...."

[Marble holds her stump up.  Swallow tells her] "'Pretend that you're 
going to grab hold of my nose.'

"Minute glimmerings appeared in the shadowy interior of the stump of 
arm, pinpoint gleams...."

EftLS, Ch. 7

I think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain.  If Agilus were a chem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in metal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers, not flesh and bone.  This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would surely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck.

Maybe there was another kind of robot.  But I doubt very much someone would make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut, but with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls.

>There is a very slight difference 
in color.

The fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg with an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9).

> Severian brings to everything he does.

Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done beheading feels to the headsman.  I take that to mean he felt nothing different about Agilus's head.  And see below.

> flow differently. Severian would notice.

He also cleans his boots.  By that time the blood would have at least started to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell, since he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution.  He must have cleaned /Terminus Est/, too.

Also, the blood frightened the baggage sumpter (presumably a horse), which would have been by smell, not color.

> twins, but it's plausible---they are deceptive people.

Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a sexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister.

No, I don't believe it.  And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone.  He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.

It's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have this theory in mind.  "Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh."  (/Claw/, C. VIII)  There are a couple other examples like that.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 05:34:18 +0000

Or what about:

Agilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone.

Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and strange maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down Severian's orichalk?

"When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it was wreathed with letters I did not know."

Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together face-to-face?

"Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to unite them."

"He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before."

It's all probably trivial for some, but I find these two characters unsettlingly important to the series for some reason, and wish I could better understand their weirdness.

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 06:56:30 +0000

> Agilus as cacogen (hierodule?), and Agia as robot clone.

Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby 
Theoanthropos cry.

>> Also, have you guys already discussed what were the runes and
>> strange
> maplike design she scrawled into the ground where she had thrown down
> Severian's orichalk?
>>
>> "When I left him, the orichalk was gone. In its place - and no doubt
> with its edge - a design had been scratched on the filthy stones. It
> might have been the snarling face of Jurupari, or perhaps a map, and it
> was wreathed with letters I did not know."

This sounds very much like some folk magic, suggesting Agia is part of a 
mystery cult.

> Or the aureole of light which surrounded Agia and Agilus's joined
> heads when Severian barged in on them laying naked together
> face-to-face?
>
> "Inside a naked man lay upon straw. A chain ran from the iron collar
> bout his neck to the wall. A woman, naked too, bent over him, her
> long, brown hair falling past her face and his so that it seemed to
> unite them."
>
> "He stared at his hands, slender and rather soft, where they lay in
 > the narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an
 > aureole a few moments before."

The aureaole is the scattering of the bright sunlight by someone's 
backlit hair, giving a halo effect. Here is a similar effect with a kitty:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/backlit%20afro/caitlinjean/backlit-1.jpg

http://preview.tinyurl.com/29jlag7

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 07:34:20 +0000

She lost some fluid.

.

> "... he took off the white towel that had covered her [Maytera Marble's]
> now-lifeless right hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an
> I think these make your hypothesis very hard to sustain.  If Agilus were a
> chem built like Marble, his neck would probably have been sheathed in
> metal and would certainly have contained wires, tubes, and optical fibers,
> not flesh and bone.  This would have done /Terminus Est/ no good and would
> surely have felt and looked different from cutting through a human neck.
>
> Maybe there was another kind of robot.  But I doubt very much someone
> would make robots with necks that acted just like human necks when cut,
> but with skulls that sounded different when banged into stone walls.
>
> The fluid that spurts out of a Vironese soldier when Mint severs its leg
> with an azoth is black, by the way (CotLS, Ch. 9).
>
> Severian makes a general remark in that scene about how a well-done
> beheading feels to the headsman.  I take that to mean he felt nothing
> different about Agilus's head.  And see below.
>
> He also cleans his boots.  By that time the blood would have at least
> started to clot, and he'd have leisure to notice its texture and smell,
> since he'd no longer be focused on bringing off the execution.  He must
> have cleaned /Terminus Est/, too.
>
> Agilus was the heir of an optimate and impoverished himself by having a
> sexbot made to look like a female version of him or like his real sister.
>
> No, I don't believe it.  And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's
> head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone.  He said
> it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.
>
> It's interesting, though, how things can be read differently when I have
> this theory in mind.  "Agia shrugged, and the moonlight turned her bare
> shoulders into something more precious and more beautiful than flesh."
> (/Claw/, C. VIII)  There are a couple other examples like that.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 07:41:54 +0000

Wilson, be courteous to Mr Dunn.

.

---

From: Mark Lewin <mark at marklewin.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:13:48 +0000

... or because they are chemical?

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:22:09 +0000

That's what I was thinking.

Since then there have been several posts showing that at least some of
them have some mechanical parts.

I don't think that Agia and Agilus, if they are robots, are the same as
Jonas, who was given human spare parts. They would have been crafted to be
as they are.

The theory, which I still like, is indeed getting a bit convoluted.

I will certainly talk about it with Gene if and when I get another chance
to do so.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:48:06 +0000

> ... or because they are chemical?

FWIW, Wikipedia says in Capek's original play the robots are based on a 
chemical process.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:57:45 +0000

So they have some hydraulic tubing, a few wires, whatever.

I think this theory is gaining and not losing strength.

.

---

From: Mark Lewin <mark at marklewin.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:19:41 +0000

I can't help but think of Ted Chiang's excellent short story 'Exhalation' in
relation to this, which is available online here:

http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Ted%20Chiang.pdf.

"  'Exhalation' is an evocative story of an all-metal world, its
argon-breathing inhabitants, and a scientist who performs the ultimate
self-examination. "

Mark

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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:21:20 +0000

Well, naturally he doesn't say it sounds "metallic." And you're right that it doesn't ring. But what else could "sharp" mean? Why not then "as sharp as the tap of a carpenter's mallet on a block of oak"? Why not "the thud of an ax stroke in the forest"?

Skulls are rigid bags of blood and brain. I haven't done any testing, but they can't sound anywhere near as sharp as a mason's hammer hitting stone. Not when hitting anything. Ever. The attack and decay are going to be completely different. Unless perhaps the bone breaks, and then there will be a wet crack. Is Agia then an alien who can break her skull and heal in seconds?

What other function could the description serve? It could mean Agia really got a knock---and indeed she buckled. But then she wept---she didn't pass out or gush brains.

Also, the evidence from Long Sun is important but has to be treated as circumstantial: (1) only Severian's descriptions of robots really count, otherwise it's apples vs oranges, because his worldview is profoundly different from Silk/Horn's (2) the technology is not necessarily the same and in some cases may be objectively different. 

Again, both books can be seen as long exercises in deliberately obscured character shapeshifting. We have the inhumi, dreamwalking, eidolons, Jonas, Jolenta, Maytera Marble, Baldanders, passing from life to death and back again, and on and on. For a passage like this to signify nothing would be a grave mistake.

.............................................................................................................
No, I don't believe it.  And I repeat that Severian doesn't say Agia's head hitting the stone wall sounded like a hammer hitting stone.  He said it sounded as /sharp/, not as metallic or ringing.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:24:17 +0000

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby Theoanthropos cry.

Is this better, dude? :)

To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.

The folk magic angle would play nicely with the aep-men in the mines, I guess.

And @brunians, I agree That Agia and Agilus are different from Jonas if they are indeed robotic.

In any case, I just don't feel like they are humans, that's as simple as I can state it. Something far too "off" about them both.

...ryan

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:27:27 +0000

I had forgotten about the scrawl. But Agia and Agilus' relationship is 
definitely depicted as holy and (tw)incestuous. They are indeed 
extremely important characters.

They may of course not be twins or siblings at all.

They may be anything at all.

But their relationship is holy and sexual and their bodies show zero 
dimorphism.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:38:11 +0000

I'm a little baffled by this. Of course there is a natural explanation 
for the aureole---what would you expect?

Perhaps "At that moment I realized that Agia and Agilus were holy in 
their unity, because they wore a halo like that of the saints in my 
little book. They were like gods. I kneeled to them and prayed and said 
a few Hail Maries for good measure"?

Does Severian also describe every natural phenomenon he sees?

"Chapter XVII: The sky seemed to be releasing a liquid very much like 
water. Was it in fact rain?"

"Chapter XXI: The sun covered the ground with a substance very much like 
the light I used to see during the day when I was a boy."

"Chapter XXII: The substance I breathed into my lungs as I walked to 
Saltus seemed like a familiar mix of breathable gases."

I could go on.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:53:29 +0000

I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without 
sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy? Hm, well the inventor of 
robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. 
Thus, applying Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "

He faced this problem with Long Sun, where robotness was known and 
accepted as part of what is not hidden (the local world created by the 
local archon).

With New Sun, he did not face this problem, because he said instead, "I 
will not refer to robots at all; they are hidden." On Urth, they are 
part of the Outside, not the Inside.

And yet both universes are full of robots, half-robots, future robots, 
former robots, humans on their way to becoming robots/robots becoming 
humans. Perhaps the halo around Agia and Agilus is a blessing of a union 
between bot and human as much as man and woman.

Furthermore, I read robots as being almost blasphemous in their 
unnaturalness, plainly the work of an inferior Creator, although not at 
all evil. It's a small step from there to sexbots, which are already 
available in Japan.

(In fact, I can't think of anything more perfectly blasphemous than a 
pair of sexy male/female twins mating and creating a race of superbots. 
Dr Who would have stopped them in the nick of time; Severian would kill 
them. Perhaps Severian's story is in part a record of his stopping 
various potential future histories so that only one remains.)

Recall that Tolkien made a big deal of explaining that Sauron and his 
predecessor could not create life, only twist it.

Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 4:58:18 AM

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:25:16 +0000

>I'd read this more as Wolfe musing, "How will I call robots without sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?
>Hm, well the inventor of robots called them chemical in nature. This runs against the cliche. Thus, applying
>Brunians' radical principle, I shall call them "chems." "
....

That sounds reasonable to me.  Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries.  Was there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

> Brunians, where is the line telling us that Hethor digs bots?

Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak for, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch. XXX).

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:32:32 +0000

I agree with you, Ryan.

I like my idea that Agia was Hethor's paracoita, and that Agilus was
something like that - a paracoitus.

.

> To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a kitty
> photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the protagonists are
> named after saints, I think it has to be noted at least.
>
> In any case, I just don't feel like they are humans, that's as simple as I
> can state it. Something far too "off" about them both.
>
> ...ryan

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:36:45 +0000

It's one of Hethor's rants, where he goes on and on about his paracoita.

I think it's where he's trying to become Severian's assistant.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:36:49 +0000

.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:38:08 +0000

Well nobody is questioning the fact that Agia was to be with Hethor, right? That is pretty well stated in the text.

We're now trying to find out what the eff is up with her tinny head snapping against the wall beneath those abundant locks of hair.

...ryan

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:53:20 +0000

"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not chosen instead to lie with me."

(Hethor's rant in SotT, Chap. 30, Night)

.

And it is verified this poppet may be Agia, in the following passages....

.

"Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him."

(Agia to Severian in SotT, Chap. 19, Botanic Gardens)

.

"Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner."

(Agilus on Agia in SotT, Chap. XX, Agilus)

.

"...you were trying to kill me before Saltus."

"With the avern. Yes, of course."

"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is."

I waited for her to reply, but she said nothing.

"On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and a little money coming in from the shop."

It was my turn to be surprised. She said, "I should have gone to him and mastered him. I have mastered him now."

(Severian and Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)

.

...ryan

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:07:28 +0000

"M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you 
see, a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her 
i-irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole 
beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes, that 
flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own 
scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took 
her! Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the 
lemon-wood box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay 
with me all night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited 
all day, watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she 
might smile when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little 
hands. Like d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin 
had she not chosen instead to lie with me. . . . "

genicon
(Adult / Slang)
My only source for this word is from K <http://www.definition-of.com/K>. 
S. Daly's * Sex. An Encyclopedia for the Bewildered * (1995): ' A sexual 
partner <http://www.definition-of.com/partner> imagined by a woman 
<http://www.definition-of.com/woman> who is no longer satisfied with her 
real partner <http://www.definition-of.com/partner>.'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Noun) also as a succubus-real imagined lover. an hallucinated sexual 
partner

/Scopolagna/: “A woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the 
extreme” (GW).

Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible 
to say.

As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not 
nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).

Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100618-0, 06/18/2010
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 10:26:24 AM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:12:13 +0000

You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia.

Agia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters, when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now.

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> Doll or robot, this does not sound like Agia to me. But it's impossible to say.
> 
> As for energy sources, that's an important point. They probably are not nuclear (as we know it) or solar (they rest in tunnels).

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:21:13 +0000

This doesn't make Agia Hethor's doll. He is missing his doll and would 
no doubt accept a replacement, not caring whether it is flesh or 
synthetic, but probably preferring synthetic.

But given another Wolfean principle, Conservation of Characters, it 
makes sense. Agia knows about Hethor's powers and does what she needs to 
do to control him. However, if she laid in his box before she mastered 
him ... then she was not under her own control on the Quasar.

So we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found, 
but she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who 
"woke" her? Agilus?

This is a whole space opera subplot in itself.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:25:32 +0000

Ah, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled 
her with monsters.

Anyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't 
see why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita.

Possibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to 
evade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 11:12:25 AM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:31:20 +0000

I guess it just sounds much less slavish how she knows Hethor, whereas he describes her as a sex slave in a lemonwood box who got loose.

Could go either way, since his toy HAS gone missing. And she does say she mastered him in the text.

Space opera sub-plot is RIGHT!

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> Ah, that explains what I wondered about a minute ago: Hethor controlled her with monsters.
> 
> Anyway, while I don't know why Agia would change her eye color, I don't see why she couldn't ... IF she is a paracoita.
> 
> Possibly she changed her color to purple for Hethor, then changed it to evade him. And doesn't go back because it is after all an unnatural color.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:44:50 +0000

More evidence to ponder, and arguments to make for both sides of the argument of whather Agia was brought from the Quasar where she waited in a Lemonwood box without sleeping. Does she ever sleep in Severian's recount?

.

"I thought you had only promised yourself to him, if he would kill me."

"I have promised him that and many other things, and so mastered him. He is ahead of you, Severian, waiting word from me."

"With more of his beasts? Thank you for the warning. That was it, wasn't it? He had threatened you and Agilus with the pets he had brought from other spheres."

She nodded. "He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them."

"I know," I said. "Jonas told me."

"After I learned that you would kill Agilus, I went to him. He is iron- strong in some ways, weak in many others. If I had withheld my body I could have done nothing with him, but I did all the queer things he wished me to, and made him believe I love him. Now he will do anything I ask. He followed you for me after you killed Agilus; with his silver I hired the men you killed at the old mine, and the creatures he commands will kill you for me yet, if I don't do it here myself."

(Agia and Severian on Hethor in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)

.

But she is abnormally strong, as Severan observes here...

.

"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to show a glint of steel.

The very strength of her blow betrayed her."

(Severian on Agia in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)

.

The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman? The paragraph opens explaining how "women" hold a blade. At first you assume Agia's assassin hold just makes her not a proverbial "woman". But then when he says her strength betrayed here, you're all like HUH?

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> So we have a sex doll who was pliant, was apparently stolen, then found, but she now seeks and gains control of her owner. Who stole her? Who "woke" her? Agilus?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:46:18 +0000

The sex doll got on top.

Kinky!

.

> "M-m-master, when I was on the Quasar I had a paracoita, a doll, you see,
> a genicon, so beautiful with her great pupils as dark as wells, her i-
> irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master, whole
> scopolagna, my poppet? Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her!
> Crush them, Master, beneath stones. Where has she gone from the lemon-wood
> box I made for her, where she never slept at all, for she lay with me all
> night, not in the box, the lemon-wood box where she waited all day,
> watch-and-watch, Master, smiling when I laid her in so she might smile
> when I drew her out. How soft her hands were, her little hands. Like
> d-d-doves. She might have flown with them about the cabin had she not
> chosen instead to lie with me."
>
> "Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are my
> arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume I
> have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an old
> sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him."
>
> "Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow,
> and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted
> her to do it sooner."
>
> "On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you to
> live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not
> understand why you, a lovely young woman, should even consider his offer
> when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you, and
> a little money coming in from the shop."
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:54:28 +0000

What color are Agia's eyes?

Are her hands ever mentioned?

.

>>> sounding like ad copy for a Japanese toy?
>> That sounds reasonable to me.  Also, maybe their power source is
>> electrochemical, namely batteries.  Was there ever anything in the Long
>> Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.
>>
>>
>> Brunians is probably on of the last people in the world I should speak
>> for, but Hethor's lost paracoita is some kind of robot (/Shadow/, Ch.
>> XXX).
>>
>> Jerry Friedman
>>
>>
>>
>>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:55:32 +0000

Agia lies all the time.

Do you think she wants to admit she was a sex doll in front of her allies?

I don't remember Agia's eye color being mentioned.

.

> You know, you're probably right. Unless I missed a passage where Agia had
> irises purple as pansies, I think the paracoita is probably not Agia.
>
> Agia also admits she was threatened into submission by Hethor's monsters,
> when he came to Urth with them. But that she has mastered him now.
>
> ...ryan
>
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:58:13 +0000

I don't know who woke her, but this is what I currently think.

.

>> i- irises purple like asters or pansies blooming in summer, Master,
>> whole beds of them, I thought, had b-been gathered to make those eyes,
>> that flesh that always felt sun-warmed. Wh-wh-where is she now, my own
>> had she not chosen instead to lie with me."
>>
>> "Do you see rings or earrings? A silver lamia twined about my neck? Are
>> my arms constricted with circlets of gold? If not, you may safely assume
>> I have no officer of the Household Troops for my paramour. There's an
>> old sailor, ugly and poor, who presses me to live with him."
>>
>> "Everything you suspect is true - is that enough? I will be dead
>> tomorrow, and shewill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else.
>> I wanted her to do it sooner."
>>
>> "On the day we met, you told me there was an old sailor who wanted you
>> to live with him. Old and ugly and poor, you called him, and I could not
>> when you were not actually starving. You had your twin to protect you,
>> and a little money coming in from the shop."
>>

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:59:21 +0000

"She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them."

.

"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her."

(SotT, various)

.

I always pictured her as Asian. Consistent with the 80's sex doll subculture, I guess.

...ryan

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:59:45 +0000

Ryan Dunn wrote (18-06-2010 16:44):
> ...
> "Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the
> proverb, but Agia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from
> below, like an accomplished assassin. I turned only just in time to
> block her blade with the shutter, and the point drove through the wood to
> show a glint of steel. The very strength of her blow betrayed her."
>
> The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman?

Not necessarily - 'betrayed' as in the way something you rely on ends up
being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous 
position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, 
I'm no anglo.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:04:35 +0000

Evidence against, or a mask, or ...

.

> "She was of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the
> elongated brown eyes that often accompany them."
>
> .
>
> "With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like
> her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and
> delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her."
>
> (SotT, various)
>
> .
>

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:14:15 +0000

At 16:59 18/06/2010, Pedro wrote:
>being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a 
>disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, 
>at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.

That is my reading -- because her blow was so strong, her knife got 
caught in the wood and so Severian was able to wrench it from her 
grasp. (And I am an anglo :-)

A few paras above this, she says that she and Agilus "were the same 
flesh", which would be a strange expression for a purported robot -- 
even a lying one.

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:26:29 +0000

I think now it makes perfect sense. Hethor describes a pliant slave. She 
says she mastered him---previously, she had not mastered him---she was 
not the master. She could have been nothing, per her story to Severian, 
but she says she "should have mastered him." There was a "before" before 
Hethor pursued her as a suitor.

(She could even be changing "Hethor chased me with monsters whom I slew" 
to "I am just a poor girl with only a dirty old sailor as a suitor. He 
wishes to marry me but I spoke a word and now he is my puppy." Wolfe 
characters have divergent perspectives that direct their speech in 
reference to identical events. In this case, it's a clash of genres: 
sci-fi vs picaresque.)

Therefore they are the same. What changed?

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 11:32:25 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:30:42 +0000

Below...

> (Agia and Severian on Hethor in SotL, Chap. 15, He Is Ahead of You!)
Agia is not necessarily lying. Hethor may have used a pretext to pursue 
her; she may have opened the shop to catch him, since sailors probably 
frequent pawns hops and such.

> The strength betrayed what? That she was not a woman? The paragraph opens explaining how "women" hold a blade. At first you assume Agia's assassin hold just makes her not a proverbial "woman". But…
In Wolfe-speak, this means "Agia is a man." Or at least, "Agia is not a 
woman."

Which? Agilus or sexbot?

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:33:14 +0000

So, going with this logic. Where does Agilus come into play. Did she alter her appearance to match Agia's after she escaped her lemonwood box?

...ryan

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:37:16 +0000

Not only that. It's just not something you'd say in Nessus.

It would be like starting a conversation in the checkout line about how 
you just got off a starship and the prices were really good here.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 11:56:25 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:45:50 +0000

It would be typical of Wolfe to hint that two characters are the same, 
then stamp NOT THE SAME on them, and then make the explanation for why 
they are the same anyway be the essence and purpose of the character.

Riddle: "I am a hottie who can change her eye color. What am I?"

I'd guess she can change her sex, too. Why build a sexbot that is only 
one gender? How inefficient. Could she not then also make herself 
resemble someone? A recent post commented that Agilus would have been 
bankrupted by purchasing a sexbot that looked like him. But that's not 
the only possible explanation.

Perhaps the sex doll found a protector in Agilus, as Severian actually 
states, then made herself look like Agilus because that's what he's into.

Do we have a theory?

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 12:00:26 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:46:50 +0000

Possibly. If Sev was then able to disarm her because of that.

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't 
> know, I'm no anglo.
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 12:01:26 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:49:55 +0000

But it would be not at all strange for a robot who had to believe she 
was Agilus' sister in order to be Agilus' sister. If she made herself 
like him, curve for curve, color for color, then that is a precise and 
poetic way of stating it---especially from her perspective.

See "Jahlee."

Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:
>> position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I 
>> don't know, I'm no anglo.
>
>
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 12:14:26 PM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:50:16 +0000

Hmm...

I can't help but think that he was explaining the difference between Agia and other women in this passage. And that the strength of her blow sort of sealed the deal for him, and betrayed that she is something more than woman. And not just assassin, I don't think. He already knew that fairly well, with more than three attempts on his life on her hands (oh those soft, delicate hands!).

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

> being counterproductive. In this case, putting her in a disavatageous position. Well, I supoose that's a possible reading, at least. I don't know, I'm no anglo.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:50:17 +0000

You are ahead of me.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 12:34:26 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:51:09 +0000

Well, the proverb doesn't describe female assassins---just women. So 
it's ambiguous. She could certainly be a trained or experienced female 
assassin, in addition to being either nonhuman or nonfemale. But since 
Wolfe probably made up the "proverb," it was with a purpose, and there 
are no clues that Agia is simply an angry trained human female assassin. 
(Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

The theory requires either that a sex doll be strong or that a strong 
robot can be a sex doll.

Either that a sex doll is capable of close combat or that a fighting 
robot can be a sex doll.

Either that a sex doll that can be whatever her partner wants her to be 
can be an assassin, or that an assassin can be whatever her target needs 
her to be.

Is Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for 
Hethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, 
or is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous? Either way, what 
changed? How did she get control of Hethor? or did she?

As an aside, it's remarkable how this discussion has begun to resemble 
that for AEG, where characters almost openly adopt disguises and deal in 
identity deception, and where a play is actually part of the plot. I 
always assumed New Sun characters were more stable than they appear to 
me now. But then I never figured out the Silk vs Horn thing either.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 12:51:26 PM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:08:36 +0000

Or did Agilus have something to say about changing her from submissive sex kitten to dominatrix with some manly qualities?

And perhaps (or instead) this was motivated by getting back at Hethor, mastering him, as it were?

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 1:51 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> Is Agia an assassin robot straight out of Dune who played sex doll for Hethor because she wanted his power and money but feared his monsters, or is she a sex doll who turned skillfully murderous?

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:57:57 +0000

Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who 
actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as 
having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of 
her physical makeup.

Here's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? 
Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know 
whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even 
allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that 
survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between 
A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a 
bit of the Outsider leaking in.

Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and 
Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time 
travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if 
they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, 
since she can reverse direction and return to him.

If Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like 
Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back 
to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, 
or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of 
years to his thirty or so.

Stop me if I'm starting to sound as crazy as the rest of you.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 2:09:28 PM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:03:00 +0000

Let me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and description Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this missing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try to see if the mystery can be solved.

Right?

If not Agia, who else might this missing woman be?

Or is this story a foreshadowing of the monsters Hethor will later let loose?

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless of her physical makeup.
> 
> Here's a thought---would Agia-as-robot have any such human feelings? Does she feel love for Agilus? The halo scene suggests so. I don't know whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in.
> 
> Another thought: did Agia land, escape, and find Agilus? Or is Urth and Agilus her home base? Would it be possible, given what we know of time travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she can reverse direction and return to him.
> 
> If Agia is a robot, that problem goes away, as she can always look like Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his thirty or so.
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:17:23 +0000

I agree. I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are 
completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think 
all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about 
Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless "facedancer" 
ship's robot in a woman's skin.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 3:03:28 PM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:24:31 +0000

I think this is exactly correct.

.

>> Let me try this from a different angle. The amount of detail and
>> description Hethor (and Severian (and Wolfe)) give regarding this
>> missing poppet obviously feels like the reader should take note, and try
>> to see if the mystery can be solved.
>>
>> Right?
>>
>>> Well, that sounds like a very feminine revenge plot, or like a woman
>>> who actually feels something for Hethor. I don't think so. I see Agia
>>> as having been homicidal and power-hungry for a long time, regardless
>>> of her physical makeup.
>>>
>>> whether the gnostic twincestuous god-rulers scheme requires love or
>>> even allows it, or if it matters. (It does in the pieces of gnosticism
>>> that survived as alchemy.) I ask because it's possible that the love
>>> between A/A is real and that it is actually holy in the God-is-love
>>> sense---a bit of the Outsider leaking in.
>>>

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:28:31 +0000

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:57 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
...
> travel in the Urth universe, for a twin pair to stay close in age if they
> want to, when one is a star sailor and would stay young? Probably, since she
> can reverse direction and return to him.
>
> Agilus at any age. But she can still sign onto ships that take her back to
> when Agilus is alive---she could be physically younger than Agilus, or could
> spend decades with Agilus in the process of living hundreds of years to his
> thirty or so.
>

As someone who has watched this discussion with skepticism, I can
(re)assure you: you sound no more and no less crazy than everyone
else.

-- 
gwern

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:41:56 +0000

Okay, I think we're on the same page. If we agree, than there IS a woman on the loose in BotNS, who is a robot.

Otherwise, I don't think Wolfe would have given us SO MUCH description of this missing paracoita.

.

HETHOR: "How soft her hands were, her little hands."

SEVERIAN: "The slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in [Agilus] were compelling in her."

.

HETHOR: "... that flesh that always felt sun-warmed."

SEVERIAN: "... as I watched her, the sun touched a rent just below her waist, turning the skin there to palest gold."

.

Hethor also vows to crush any who may have his poppet ("Let h-h-hooks be buried in the hands that took her!"), and then proceeds to (under urgings from Agia herself) sick his monsters on Severian.

Just sayin'.

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 3:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> I was just saying the behavior and appearance of the poppet are completely different from the behavior and appearance of Agia. I think all this can be accounted for without violating anything we know about Urth. Stretching it, maybe, when I propose a ruthless "facedancer" ship's robot in a woman's skin.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 20:05:03 +0000

Yep. Hethor presents the reader with a clear mystery which Severian does 
not solve, but he does present us with lots of information about other, 
seemingly unrelated people and events. The trick is to match the clues 
to the mystery.

Hethor's motives are pretty important to Shadow and Agia figures in 
those motives. She uses Hethor to attack Severian. She's not just a 
shopkeeper's brother.

I recall a passage of UotNS in which an unnamed small female person 
attacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that was. 
Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 3:42:29 PM

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 21:54:29 +0000

> Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Gunnie and Idas attack him, but they're not small.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:04:12 +0000

Yeah, I remember them ...

But I wonder if Agia, whether flesh or not, is one of them.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:17:15 +0000

> (Unless she wears secret assassin armor on her head.)

I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole 
story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in 
the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I 
can't guess.

- She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian 
becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of 
nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?

- Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always 
mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia 
has a will of her own to remain relevant.

- Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's 
not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - 
not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he 
did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing 
unwary travellers in avern duels?

The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to 
work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is 
much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that 
the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think 
the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more 
extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in 
mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in 
etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at 
all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:23:54 +0000

David Stockhoff wrote:

>>> attacks Severian on the Ship, and I could never figure out who that
>>> was. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
>>

Idas is supposed to be an undine or something and they don't seem to be very
proficient in the arts of shapeshifting.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:26:01 +0000

Exactly.

You make me think of Famulimus/Ossipago/Barbatus. Could Agia be a robot 
on that level of technology, rather than Typhon's Whorl tech?

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the 
> whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's 
> hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - 
> though just what I can't guess.
>
> - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as 
> Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, 
> seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?
>
> mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, 
> Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant.
>
> - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, 
> but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an 
> instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to 
> entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the 
> twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?
>
> The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to 
> be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the 
> character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first 
> sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. 
> Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but 
> rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is 
> being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything 
> in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian 
> sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't 
> think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 6:17:32 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:26:20 +0000

I mean, one of them politically.

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 6:24:32 PM

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:28:27 +0000

> think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

She's a werewolf.

I argue purely from textual probabilities.

Adam

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:32:47 +0000

On Jun 18, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

> I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story and precious little is known about her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't guess.
> 
> - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?
> 
> - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant.
> 
> - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before he did anything - can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?
> 
> The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian. To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian sense). Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

You know, Agia does have a knack for bending people to her will, whether that be Severian, Hethor, the Vodalani, etc. The aureole suggests something holy, perhaps a symbolic moment, perhaps some archangelic aspect?

If Ossipago is robot and not cacogen (I believe he is, isn't he), are there common clues connecting him and Agia? Or maybe just observations worthy of comparison (in the way there are between Hethor and Jonas, as star sailors).

We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????

...ryan

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:33:24 +0000

They are biological and short lived.

I think they are biological.

.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:02:36 +0000

> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show…

The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling Agia's 
strings.

Adam

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:30:32 +0000

Incidentally, "Agia" means "holy." So there you are.

I take her as a kind of pretender to the throne of Urth. She killed 
Vodalus and took his place:

Agia, whom I might have loved, has chosen instead to become a female 
Vodalus, taking all that lives most fully in humanity as her opponent.

Also, from UotNS:

Perhaps it was some third thing, sensed unconsciously; but I felt again 
as I had when, so much younger, I had encountered Agia a desire so
strong that it seemed more spiritual than any faith, its flesh burned 
away in the heat of its own yearning.

Um...

Also, the lucivee with which she tore Severian's cheek is named after a 
lynx, yet it is clearly what we call the "tiger's claw," supposedly a 
ninja weapon.

What was somebody saying about Agia being an assassin? (And I agree with 
Ryan---she is Asian in appearance.)

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 6:39:32 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:31:36 +0000

Ossipago is not.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 6:34:32 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:32:14 +0000

No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to Severian.

Adam Thornton wrote:
>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in the 
>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that 
>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show off 
>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>    
>
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 7:03:33 PM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:34:24 +0000

True.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:35:34 +0000

If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.

She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.

.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:45:22 +0000

That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes 
even more important to explain what changed her.

And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no Pinocchio.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 7:36:33 PM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:32:50 +0000

Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.

I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes even more important to explain what changed her.
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 01:34:06 +0000

Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself, 
but it makes some sense.

(1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin 
sister in Love.

(2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her 
name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.

(3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in 
many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe, 
one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new hope 
for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in Agilus, but 
rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous love. Agia is 
just as good an example of Robot, and They click.

(4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with 
his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.

(5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja on 
the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes it 
fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the facedancing is 
more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized for sex, not 
killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his powers; he probably 
acquired her through his powers.

(6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She 
met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She 
awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now 
she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she 
can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of this.)

(7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an assassin. 
Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world to spawn a 
new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it AEgypt.) 
Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of Severian. perhaps 
planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.

It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it 
doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that robots 
are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil regardless of 
their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be god, why not 
robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more of a 
miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic Christ 
figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.

How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even had 
a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? 
Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were truly 
better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less happen in 
a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent question, 
"So what if Agia is a robot?"

(8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns 
spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just 
that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is beheaded, 
she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to kill Severian, 
but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the Commonwealth in her own 
right. Note that she doesn't ally with the Ascians, "once she sees 
them." She's not one of them at all.

I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler or 
that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not human.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 8:33:34 PM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 02:47:29 +0000

Man that's deep. But I found myself nodding a lot. Another  
consideration...

If she is the escapee, it makes perfect sense for her to want to  
change her identity, in case Hethor ever caught back up with her.

I find the notion that these two are not birth twins not only  
intriguing but fully plausible.

Thanks for this spirited debate and discussion, truly an awesome group  
of minds on here. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a retread for some.

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>  
wrote:

> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to  
> himself, but it makes some sense.
>
> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy  
> (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>
> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian  
> in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the  
> universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new  
> universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can  
> lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and  
> pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and  
> They click.
>
> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite  
> with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>
> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll  
> ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which  
> makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the  
> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is  
> specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her  
> because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>
> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.  
> She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She  
> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but  
> now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and  
> what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches  
> glimpses of this.)
>
> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an  
> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the  
> world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.  
> (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them  
> rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill  
> Agilus.
>
> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that  
> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil  
> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be  
> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more  
> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic  
> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>
> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even  
> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules  
> created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if  
> they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already  
> more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer  
> to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>
> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is  
> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to  
> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the  
> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the  
> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>
> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler  
> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not  
> human.
>
> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over  
>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is  
>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we  
>> are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either  
>> that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>
>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it  
>>> becomes even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:08:55 +0000

First time here.

It's deep.

But is it fragrant?

.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:58:47 +0000

I have found that facts seldom get in the way of fancied theories, but here
are a few.

Male chems (soldiers like Hammerstone) are taller, heavier than fem chems,
and 5.25 times stronger. (That number comes from Marble, CALDE, chap. 8,
p-284.) Silk said that she was too heavy for him to lift (ibid., chap. 4,
p-131).

Chems don't eat or drink. Severian pushed Agia into a chair when she had a
belly full of wine (SHADOW, chap. XXV). He also slapped her down, "My hand
caught her just below the ear and she went sprawling, . .  . " (ibid., chap.
XXVII). He easily overpowered her outside the mine of the man-apes and
lifted her off her feet by her hair (CLAW, chap. VII). There is no way for
Agia to be a chem. Agilus's execution speaks for itself, as others have
pointed out.

Jonas was not a chem. Sev picked him up in the Antechamber: "I carried him
back (finding him astonishingly light) and when I . . ." (CLAW, chap. XVI).
Silk and Sev were both young, strong lads.

Inire interrogated Agia and put her in command of Vodalus's rebels (CITADEL,
chap. XXXV). I think that he, as a hierodule, could tell a doll from a robot
from a human woman. A woman is what he called her in his letter.

-Roy

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 04:44:56 +0000

She's a woman, whatever she is.

Nothing you say here makes me doubt this theory.

.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 05:00:39 +0000

Aww... you're spoiling all the fun!

As for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says) than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily, should it come to that.

Have you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text?

If yes, where to look? I'm following the clues, and they keep leading me to Agia. That's all I'm saying.

...ryan

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 05:07:01 +0000

Like he says.

.

> As for Hethor, I'd think he'd want a lighter sex bot (genicon, he says)
> than a chem while frolicking in bed. Someone he could overpower easily,
> should it come to that.
>

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 05:11:13 +0000

Maybe we should look back through Borges' "Book of Imaginary Beings".

Wolfe has stolen more than one creature from this text and used it BotNS.

...ryan

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:57:08 +0000

No one is saying Agia is a chem.

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 11:59:38 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:40:33 +0000

Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.

(9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created 
by the gods.

(10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a 
shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no 
reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.

There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known 
principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from 
plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly 
relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest 
central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are 
twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous 
tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important 
character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie 
ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the 
box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies 
heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties 
in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for 
godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards 
established differences between robots and humans, because what matters 
in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.

Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.

Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an 
assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable 
of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the 
above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being 
Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the 
gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.

I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the 
aureole around A&A.

David Stockhoff wrote:
> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new 
> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in 
> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous 
> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>
> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja 
> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes 
> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the 
> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized 
> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his 
> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>
> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world 
> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it 
> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of 
> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>
> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created? 
> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were 
> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less 
> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent 
> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>
>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are 
>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or 
>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>
> Tested on: 6/18/2010 9:34:36 PM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:57:41 +0000

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I
am on the same page as you.

.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:16:44 +0000

Father Inire writes to Severian:

There is sedition among the Paralians, which must be rooted out. The 
Tarentines, your Antrustiones, and the city legions the three groups 
that bore the brunt of the fighting having suffered almost as badly as 
the enemy. There are cohorts among them that could not muster a hundred 
able soldiers.

Lexicon Urthis suggests that these named groups are various subject 
peoples and tries to locate them. But this is plainly an error. Inire is 
simply giving the new Autarch a post-battle report. All these named 
groups are simply "imperial" legions and are mentioned nowhere else.

According to Google:

Paralians - Athenians off a ship named Paralus = Sailors and Marines. No 
kidding that there is sedition---Gunnie and Ida are among them.

Tarentines = Italian mercenary cavalry = mercenary cavalry, possibly 
those Severian fought among. "Hipparch Severian, of the Black Tarentines."

Antrustiones = foreign soldiers fighting for the the Frankish king = 
foreign soldiers fighting for the Autarch.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:20:45 +0000

Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.

I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than 
to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 8:58:13 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:21:57 +0000

No, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus 
Inire's "your."

David Stockhoff wrote:
> the enemy. There are cohorts among them that could not muster a 
> hundred able soldiers.
>
> peoples and tries to locate them. But this is plainly an error. Inire 
> is simply giving the new Autarch a post-battle report. All these named 
> Paralians - Athenians off a ship named Paralus = Sailors and Marines. 
> No kidding that there is sedition---Gunnie and Ida are among them.
>
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 9:17:13 AM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:25:06 +0000

When has an assassin robot been mentioned?

According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.

Agia is an oriental robot.

.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:45:16 +0000

That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the 
Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.

It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a 
minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology 
(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she 
resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to 
distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has 
not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common 
sex-doll specs?

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100619-0, 06/19/2010
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 9:26:18 AM

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:10:41 +0000

Theoanthropos cry.
> Is this better, dude? :)

Bless you, man.

> To your point about the aureole, the phenomenon may look nice in a
> kitty photo, but in a religiously charged book where all the
> protagonists are named after saints, I think it has to be noted at
> least.

Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple 
murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league 
with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the 
bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast  or 
inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is "a dark aureole" about p.70 of 
SHADOW.

Come to think of it, when she was strip-seached by the Pelerines, Agia 
was awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her gown 
over her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would a 
sexbot be modest or hungry?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:12:36 +0000

They are the same model, one M, one F.

.

>>>> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over
>>>> again,
>>>> I
>>>>>> (her
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> ninja
>>>>>> specialized
>>>>>> She
>>>>>> now
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> created?
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to
>>>>>>>>>>>> show
>>>>>>>>>>>> off

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:15:28 +0000

Have you ever patronized a really classy whore, Wilson?

.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:28:36 +0000

On Jun 19, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> Agia's no saint - I'd say that given her record of sacrilege, multiple murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's representative of contrast  or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is "a dark aureole" about p.70 of SHADOW.

And yet, her name's etymology indicates "holy". Wolfe is having fun with this. She has a fallen angel quality. And back to the idea of coming from Quasar with Hethor, she literally did come from the stars and escaped.

Just twisting that dagger a bit.

And the aureole description. I'm just picturing a dark cell and a shaft of sunlight creating this halo effect around the two of them.

Wolfe is telling us something. Think of it in cinematic terms for a minute. It's not like he said her teeth were white as pearls. Or her hair a dark aureole cascading around her shoulders. This one is an actual lighting effect, something Wolfe intentionally included.

Could mean nothing, could have an archangel subtext. Could be a sardonic hint at her falling from the stars as a genicon escaped her master.

...ryan

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:52:56 +0000

> No, of course it was the Antrustiones that Severian fought with, thus

Would that be the outfit with Daria, that was going to rob the gold from 
the mastiff-men's stagecoach?

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:06:22 +0000

That's what I'm guessing. Unless Severian served with two units ... it 
gets fuzzy. I believe they were light cavalry.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> Would that be the outfit with Daria, that was going to rob the gold 
> from the mastiff-men's stagecoach?
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:14:26 +0000

Good points. First, she's not proposed to be a "bot" in any usual sense, 
aside from having a metal head. And Agilus can lie, or maybe he doesn't 
even know what she is.

Second, she may have something to hide, vs having modesty, although 
modesty could just as well be "programmed." For all I know, she has a penis.

Third, you are exactly right about Agia's character. Severian is a 
torturer; I propose that Agia is an assassin; Brunians proposes that she 
is a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.

Fourth, the aureole is not of hair, but that's an interesting 
observation. More importantly, it covers the pair, not Agia. The two 
together are more than either of them individually.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> murder, and treason, she's about as unsaintly as they come, in a 
> league with Baldanders and the woman who made furniture out of 
> children. If the bright aureole represents anything, it's 
> representative of contrast  or inversion esp with Thecla whose hair is 
> "a dark aureole" about p.70 of SHADOW.
>
> was awfully modest, and when discovered with Agilus, she holds her 
> gown over her nakedness. Agilus mentions her needing to eat. Why would 
> a sexbot be modest or hungry?
>
>
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:15:06 +0000

Well, except then you have the fact that Agilus doesn't have a metal head.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 10:13:14 AM

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:16:12 +0000

> Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.

They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. 
Mint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she struck him with 
an azoth.  And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope contamination 
after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had 
been washed by their swim in Lake Limna.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:17:32 +0000

And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would hardly 
do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her nuclear power cell.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 10:16:14 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:18:21 +0000

Ah, fusion. Yes, it was the shielding I was concerned about.

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
>> electrochemical, namely batteries.  Was there ever anything in the 
>> Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, 
>> etc.
>
> They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same 
> type. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power source to blow when she 
> struck him with an azoth.  And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] 
> isotope contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it 
> was good that he and Silk had been washed by their swim in Lake Limna.
>
> - Gerry Quinn
>
>
>
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 11:17:15 AM

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:24:18 +0000

> Have you any thoughts as to whether we should be looking for the genicon from the lemon-wood box in the text?

The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, 
has an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged 
artifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in 
addition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers 
are also conservators of ancient technology....

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:30:01 +0000

He's got these ribbons or something.

And wierdness with masks like the hierodules.

.

>>>>>>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.
>>>>>>>> (Call
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> or

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:31:37 +0000

Very good, Wilson!

.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:47:14 +0000

From: "Ryan Dunn" <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over Jovinian 
> steel. The one whose image she has assumed. > The problem is just the 
> misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are to assume 
> Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or simply take 
> that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.

If Agia really was Hethor's paracoita rather than a human woman - I'm less 
than convinced of this, but there have been some interesting arguments made 
to that effect - might not Agilus have been another such?  It might be that 
male and female paracoitae look similar, perhaps even having interchangeable 
parts.  Male ones being slightly built would save weight and space after 
all, which would be convenient for someone who spends a lot of time in a 
box, or at least convenient for his or her owner.  It would make them twins 
in a real sense. Perhaps they ran off together when their spacecraft landed.

Nobody has to change their face.  In fact the possibility is added that Agia 
is a different paracoita other than the one lost by Hethor, but Hethor 
recognised her as being one, since they all have similar looks.

(If this is the case, I suspect the original owner of the rag shop met an 
unfortunate end.)

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:55:18 +0000

> not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?

After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would 
be a  much smoother distribution of "Asian" features. Severian has seen 
many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the 
time of his writing.

> Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common

She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been trained 
to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from her 
determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life over 
many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro who 
discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike another 
person with full force? It's the same thing here.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:07:32 +0000

Fair enough, though who did they use when Hethor had her in his box? Or are you not actually implying that the humanoid puppet employed to play Katharine is actually the SAME sex toy as Hethor's, just that we see them in more than one place?

...ryan

On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> The Torturers' yearly pageantry employs a woman not seen between times, has an identical appearance over the decades, and engages in the staged artifice of not just surviving but recovering from decapitation, and in addition to being torturers and executioners, the Brotherhood of Seekers are also conservators of ancient technology....

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:08:46 +0000

On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

> Nobody has to change their face.  

Except for the fact that Hethor reportedly visited Agia and Agilus at the rag shop BEFORE Hethor meets Severian, at which point he has his rant about his missing genicon.

...ryan

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:20:50 +0000

Some of them could be *actual* chemical robots.

Fueled by digestion or processes analagous to digestion.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:21:34 +0000

That's what I think, Irish.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:22:04 +0000

They are spooks.

They are assassins.

They are whores.

Who does both?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:24:41 +0000

This is a false belief, about the smoothing of the races.

It assumes, as many modern false beliefs do, that history is not cyclical;
tbat humans were smart animals and there weren't many of them for
1,990,000 years, and that in the past ten thousand years we have done all
of this for the first time.

In other words, this is what most of you believe, but it is not what I
believe, and it is not what Gene believes.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:25:30 +0000

There's a bunch of them.

There's some from the shipwreck.

Why shouldn't the hieros be selling some to the autarchs?

.

> Fair enough, though who did they use when Hethor had her in his box? Or
> are you not actually implying that the humanoid puppet employed to play
> Katharine is actually the SAME sex toy as Hethor's, just that we see them
> in more than one place?
>
> ...ryan
>
>

---

From: Tom Hopkins <topkins at hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:40:10 +0000

Sorry
to intrude upon this interesting theory with what very well may be a pointless
thought, however ignoring the predominate belief about Merryn being Severian's
sister wouldn't she also be a viable case to be Hethors missing paracoitae?

When Severian meets Merryn and the Cumaean just previous to his meeting with
Apu-Punchau, he describes his journey to the Witches Tower as a young
apprentice and his meeting with the two exact same women now before him. In
particular of Merryn he speaks:

"Here face was so lovely and so bloodless that it might have been a mask
carved in ivory by some master sculptor."

Shortly after Merryn's and the Cumaean's true forms are revealed to him and the
description of Merryn seems curious to me unless I am missing some rather
obvious fact, which I admit could well be likely.

"Merryn had collapsed into a black-clad doll, so thin and dim that slender
Dorcas seemed robust beside her. Now that intelligence no longer animated that
ivory mask, I saw it was no more than parchment over bone"

I almost hesitate to mention this as I feel sure I am missing some important
piece of information about why Merryn is perceived this way, however I feel it
is worth mentioning none the less. 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:51:58 +0000

> aside from having a metal head. And Agilus can lie, or maybe he doesn't

Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the 
bat, there's a *tok* of the ball-skull collision. IMO the bat's crack is 
sharper than the skull's *tok* , which is still sharper than the *thump* 
of meaty limbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all 
familiar with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head would have hit the 
wall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid than a baseball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auss-QFCor4&feature=PlayList&pL9AAD000C45EE30&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2dy5gd2

I live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle 
skull, put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface.

> modesty could just as well be "programmed." For all I know, she has a

This is modesty *after* she has been seen completely naked. And why 
would anyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?

> is a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.

I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to 
serve anyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers.

> together are more than either of them individually.

Rereading about their "aureate faces" and "a narrow beam of sunlight 
that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before", 
it could be the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way 
mist makes an aureole around the moon's sunlit face.

http://www.lpod.org/?pp2

or since "aureate" can also eman decorated with gold, there might be no 
actual fringe of light, but instead this would be another reference to 
their skin tone, which Sev has already likened to gold where the sun 
glints from Agia's skin through a rent in her ragged gown.

I'm not saying this doesn't count as a subtextual halo, of course.

> And if she's supposed to be a fully functional android, it would
> hardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her
> nuclear power cell.

That's not the same as a sexbot - "sleeping" immobile in a box is a 
strong advertisement that you are not really a person.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:07:15 +0000

Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be 
from the deep past, before such mixing. If they are human, that is.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there 
> would be a  much smoother distribution of "Asian" features. Severian 
> has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at 
> least by the time of his writing.
>
> She's light because she's a slender woman, and Severian has been 
> trained to be able to handle even burly men. Her strength comes from 
> her determination of purpose and her acquired disregard for human life 
> over many con jobs and murders for profit. Was it Severian or Latro 
> who discusses learning to overcome the common reluctance to strike 
> another person with full force? It's the same thing here.
>
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:11:16 +0000

Please do!

Jeff Wilson wrote:

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:19:41 +0000

There's different ethnic groups in Severian's time.

Everyone isn't homogenized.

.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:28:31 +0000

> No one is saying Agia is a chem.

A link to chems was made, I suppose because chems have metal bodies, which
led to posts about chems and metal heads and black fluid and fiber-optic
wires. That was the only reason I bothered to shoot down the notion that she
and/or Agilus might be chems.

This whole thread began because of one line about the sound her head made
when it struck the stone wall of Agilus's cell. Outside the mine of the
man-apes, Severian had her down on the ground with his boot on her neck.
When she began to struggle again, he rapped her with the flat of his sword.
He doesn't actually say that he struck her head with it, but the blow
quieted her, so that seems most likely. Wherever he struck her with the
blade, he also failed to note any metal-on-metal sound.

Also, as I quoted, he struck her just below the ear with his hand, when they
were in Agilus's cell. If there was anything unusual about the head he
struck, he also failed to note that.

And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.

-Roy

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:34:40 +0000

>> After many chiliads of racial mixing from mechanized travel, there would be a  much smoother distribution of >>"Asian" features. Severian has seen many people with broad cheekbones and elongated eyes, at least by the >>time of his writing.
>
>Exactly---if A&A are particularly Asian in appearance, they could be from the deep past, before such mixing. If
>they are human, that is.

They're not all that Asian in appearance.  Agia has "brown hair" (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin and freckles" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison with Pia).

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:52:13 +0000

... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former  
paracoital genicon self?

:)

...ryan

On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>  
wrote:

> They're not all that Asian in appearance.  Agia has "brown hair" (/ 
> SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin  
> and freckles" (/SotL/ Ch. XXVIII, in a brief mention for comparison  
> with Pia).

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:16:38 +0000

>> That sounds reasonable to me.  Also, maybe their power source is electrochemical, namely batteries.  Was
>> there ever anything in the Long Sun books about where they get their power, needing to recharge, etc.
>
>They are nuclear powered, although not necessarily all of the same type. Mint caused a trooper's fusion power >source to blow when she struck him with an azoth.  And Crane was concerned about [radioactive] isotope >contamination after he treated Lemur similarly - he said it was good that he and Silk had been washed by their >swim in Lake Limna.

Thanks.  So much for that.

Applying Brunians's radical principle, I see "chemical" comes from a Greek word for "transmutation".  Referring isotopes in a tiny reactor?

Jerry Friedman

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 00:40:31 +0000

Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as "slanting." What else are we 
to think?

Ryan Dunn wrote:
>> They're not all that Asian in appearance.  Agia has "brown hair" 
>> (/SotT/ Ch. XXI, referred to elsewhere too, I think) and "fair skin 
> Virus Database (VPS): 100619-1, 06/19/2010
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 6:53:23 PM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 01:02:40 +0000

Correct, David.

Here were the two passages that definitely indicated Agia was of some type of Asian descent (to me, anyhow)...

.

"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins."
(TSotT, Chap. 17, "The Challenge")

"Beside me walked a suntanned girl with long and slanting eyes."
(TCotA, Chap. 30, "The Corridors of Time")

.

...ryan

On Jun 19, 2010, at 8:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> Elsewhere, Severian refers to her eyes as "slanting." What else are we to think?
> 
> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>> ... and with those "strangely tilted eyes." A remnant of her former paracoital genicon self?
>> 
>> :)
>> 
>> ...ryan

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 02:21:16 +0000

I think we're to think that she's of Far Eastern and European ancestry, or whatever the equivalents are in that previous universe.

People were talking as if she were Asian.  I pointed out that she has other ancestry as well.  I could have been clearer.

Jerry Friedman

----- Original Message ----

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 02:59:08 +0000

On 6/19/2010 6:16 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> I see "chemical" comes from a Greek word for "transmutation".  Referring isotopes in a tiny reactor?

Maybe it's meant to descend from chimera - a creature assembled from 
parts. And an issue of Typhon, I see!

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 07:55:10 +0000

----- Original Message ----- 
> Except for the fact that Hethor reportedly visited Agia and Agilus at the 
> rag shop BEFORE Hethor meets Severian, at which point he has his rant 
> about his missing genicon.

That fits with the possibility I mentioned, that Hethor recognises Agia as 
one of this kind, but knows she is not the one lost by him.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 08:00:09 +0000

> And I see no real connection between Agia and Hethor's lost sex doll.

I doubt it too, but Hethor's description of 'sun-kissed skin' is 
interesting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light 
falling on her skin.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 08:31:06 +0000

> interesting, because Agia seems often to be described in terms of light

Perhaps Agilus and Agia are the remnants of a race or a bloodline of 
sexdoll-people, engender for that purpose and of similar origin as the 
mastiff-men and the cat women. They look alike because they are not just 
twins but made to be fertile only among their cohort and giving birth to 
clones of themselves meant to eventually replace them. This would 
explain why their incest is "acceptable" and thus not cursed with 
defects from hidden recessives (because they don't come with recessives) 
but the sin of their creation is visited upon them.

This also explains why Hethor falls for Agia; she greatly resembles his 
doll because their creators had similar opinions on what made a most 
desirable woman, long term. (Dr Talos has more radical preferences for 
Jolenta, no doubt contributing to her unsustainability.)

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 09:51:48 +0000

Who has purple eyes in the story?

Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?

.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:57:28 +0000

Yes. And I think her brown hair doesn't matter, either because it's not 
natural or because she's not of pure Asian descent.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 9:04:25 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:58:32 +0000

Eurasian, sure. But she uses a tiger claw/lucivee.

Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Tested on: 6/19/2010 10:22:26 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:50:31 +0000

That's an interesting suggestion. It's a way to retain the "sacred 
twins" theory without the robot angle. Funny how it's easier to propose 
an entire unknown race (perhaps since we know such must exist)  than to 
explain why someone would create an assassin robot or why a sexbot would 
turn holy and self-directed.

The robot theory is based entirely on Agia's (1) possibly metal head and 
(2) possible identity as the poppet. The bio-android theory doesn't need 
#1. As Roy notes, there are no other hints that she is metal despite 
many opportunities, and if we accept as simple truth their twin origin, 
Agilus' death disproves the metalhead clue for me. But Agia remains an 
extreme femme fatale---emphasis on both words. Why?

The Asian-appearance thing is irrelevant to this except to the extent it 
suggests a non-Nessus origin for her and "explains" the use of ninja and 
assassin weapons.

I'd prefer to rest a theory on at least 3 data points. If she's not a 
"hard robot":

---Her strength has another source
---She could still be the poppet
---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or 
just human

After giving away the hard-robot part, is it needed that A&A be anything 
other than human at all? It's not strictly necessary that Agia be the 
poppet; it may be enough that Hethor recognizes something in Agia that 
he likes---it could be as simple as that she is passive in bed and 
dominating/controlling otherwise, although I doubt her ability to even 
fake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance 
and submission.

Still, I believe the poppet story must lead somewhere. We know Wolfe 
really likes the live-puppet theme, as a subcategory of the live-robot 
theme. It's actually hard to imagine a long novel by Wolfe without it. 
It has to be in there somewhere. Jonas is one twist on that theme.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> mastiff-men and the cat women. They look alike because they are not 
> just twins but made to be fertile only among their cohort and giving 
> birth to clones of themselves meant to eventually replace them. This 
> would explain why their incest is "acceptable" and thus not cursed 
> with defects from hidden recessives (because they don't come with 
> recessives) but the sin of their creation is visited upon them.
>
> This also explains why Hethor falls for Agia; she greatly resembles 
> his doll because their creators had similar opinions on what made a 
> most desirable woman, long term. (Dr Talos has more radical 
> preferences for Jolenta, no doubt contributing to her unsustainability.)
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:42:32 +0000

> ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or

I think the poppet's stretches in the box are not suited to anything 
like a vertebrate: the bit about smiling when it closes so she can be 
smiling when it opens indicates her muscles don't relax during periods 
of inactivity. The whole sharp sound episode demonstrates Agila's 
muscles positively relax when her consciousness is interfered with.

As for her strength, she's ruthless and cold, like Lady MacBeth sought 
to be. She may also have a bit more innate strength than usual for her 
size, perhaps because rather than just sex toys, A&A's line was intended 
to be conjugal domestics; this way a slight manservant can be just as 
good at opening jars and moving furniture as a full-size. And it may not 
be muscle, it could be a more ready adrenaline rush.

> fake being passive if she's human. Perhaps Hethor needs both dominance

Agia owns up to doing all the kinky things that Hethor likes, so she's 
at least capable of bottoming if not actual submission. I think her 
determination is such that she could and would submit to anything short 
of a SAW movie that would further her revenge on Severian and the world 
in general, at least in the short term.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:51:59 +0000

All good points.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> size, perhaps because rather than just sex toys, A&A's line was 
> intended to be conjugal domestics; this way a slight manservant can be 
> just as good at opening jars and moving furniture as a full-size. And 
> it may not be muscle, it could be a more ready adrenaline rush.
>
> determination is such that she could and would submit to anything 
> short of a SAW movie that would further her revenge on Severian and 
> the world in general, at least in the short term.
>
>

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 19:03:17 +0000

> Who has purple eyes in the story?

I won't answer that because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient, 
inviolable rules that I don't know.  But if I were to answer it, I'd say Thecla and presumably her khaibit.

>Does any girl in the story have notably small or delicate hands?

Here I'd mention Thecla's khaibit.  I'd also say that Thecla has 
"impossibly narrow" hands, which I picture as long and thin, like her 
body.  You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture them may or may not be what you mean by "small or delicate".

...

> Here's a video of a pitcher getting beaned. Right after the crack of the bat, there's a *tok* of the ball-skull
> collision. IMO the bat's crack is sharper than the skull's *tok* , which is still sharper than the *thump* of meaty
> limbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all familiar with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head
> would have hit the wall, but the stone wall would be much more rigid than a baseball.
>

That's worse than reading about Allowin's Necklace.

However, "sharp" is not the word I'd use to distinguish those two sounds.  Maybe just me.

I live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle skull, put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface.

> modesty could just as well be "programmed." For all I know, she has a

This is modesty *after* she has been seen completely naked. And why would anyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?

> is a whore. His theory works better in some ways than mine.

I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to serve anyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers.

> together are more than either of them individually.

Rereading about their "aureate faces" and "a narrow beam of sunlight that had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before", it could be the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way mist makes an aureole around the moon's sunlit face.

http://www.lpod.org/?pp2

or since "aureate" can also eman decorated with gold, there might be no actual fringe of light, but instead this would be another reference to their skin tone, which Sev has already likened to gold where the sun glints from Agia's skin through a rent in her ragged gown.

> hardly do for her to go around boasting of her strength and her

That's not the same as a sexbot - "sleeping" immobile in a box is a strong advertisement that you are not really a person.

-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 20:14:56 +0000

> I just find that Agia is the single most important character in the whole story

Second most important? :-)

> and precious little is known about
> her. Maybe Wolfe's hints are not in the sense of her being a robot, but something else - though just what I can't > guess.

> - She is there almost from the beginning until the end - even as Severian becomes Autarch, she becomes the
> Autarch's antagonist, seemingly out of nothing - what's she got to do with the Vodelarii?

As people have pointed out, she's good at getting people to do what she wants, and she controls Hethor, who controls the monsters.

I think part of the point may be that for Severian to play his role, he needs supernatural powers and help, but the antagonist to all that is most fully human, unscrupulousness and hatred will go a long way.  Plus some mirrors.

> - Compare Agia's omnipresence to Thecla's, who Severian is always mentioning, yet barely appears in the
> story in person - by contrast, Agia has a will of her own to remain relevant.

Well, Thecla appears in another way.

> - Why the obsession with Severian? He killed her brother/lover, ok, but it's not like it was undeserved, and he
> did it merely as an instrument of Law - not to mention that A&A went to great lengths to entrap Severian before
> he did anything -

I don't think law or morality has anything to do with her feelings, and I think her anger has something to do with Severian's failure to die (a point Agilus brought up).  It may also have to do with his ability to resist her efforts to change his mind.  And after Agilus dies, what does she have but revenge?

> can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing unwary travellers in avern duels?

Their instant scheme is very striking.  Maybe we should imagine that, with lots of time on their hands since their shop isn't busy, they've talked about what to do if someone brings something valuable in.

This is a stereotype of crime fiction, I think--the grasping, ruthless character ready with a deception at a moment's notice.  It's more understandable among those who possess "the hopeful, hopeless courage of the poor" (/SotT/, Ch. XIX).

> The fact is that Agia's whole purpose from beginning to end seems to be to work as an antagonist to Severian.
> To me this suggests that the character is much more important and mysterious that it seems at first sight, and
> that the oddities about her beg for some grand explanation. Iow, I don't think the odd hints point to her being a
> robot, but rather to something much more extraordinary (whether part of it is being a robot or not, and bearing
> in mind that pretty much everything in Wolfe's books is extraordinary, both in etymological and pedestrian
> sense).

As I said, I don't agree.

Incidentally, if she is a sex robot or a genetically engineered doxy or some such, it's remarkable that she'd be eking out a living from the costume shop.  I suppose if she's an assassin, the shop could be her cover.

> Just what, I have absokutely no idea at all. I certainly don't think she's the Devil, she's not that powerful.

Okay, we agree on that.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:16:41 +0000

What color are Dorcas' eyes?

.

> body.  You may or may not picture them that way, and however you picture
> them may or may not be what you mean by "small or delicate".
>
>> bat, there's a *tok* of the ball-skull
>> collision. IMO the bat's crack is sharper than the skull's *tok* , which
>> is still sharper than the *thump* of meaty
>> limbs being struck on the floor which doubtless we are all familiar
>> with. The ball hits faster than Agia's head
> I live in a fairly rural area, I suppose I could round up a cattle skull,
> put a wig on it, and record it smacking it into stone surface.
>
> This is modesty *after* she has been seen completely naked. And why would
> anyone program a sexbot to cast runic curses?
>
> I do not see that Agia is an assassin, her murders do not appear to serve
> anyone's purposes outside hers and her brothers.
>
> Rereading about their "aureate faces" and "a narrow beam of sunlight that
> had given his head, and Agia's, an aureole a few moments before", it could
> be the dust and fibers from the straw on the floor, the way mist makes an
> aureole around the moon's sunlit face.
>
> http://www.lpod.org/?pp2
>
> That's not the same as a sexbot - "sleeping" immobile in a box is a strong
> advertisement that you are not really a person.
>
>
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:44:06 +0000

Agia becomes simpler if you drop any notion of being synthetic or otherworldly. But not less important.

She still has (1) light-based descriptions (2) the effect she has on Severian (spiritual burning) (3) her name (4) her relationship with Agilus and so on. These need to be accounted for.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:50:24 +0000

> I won't answer that 
because I'm afraid to get into a game with ancient,
> inviolable 
rules that I don't know.  But if I were to answer it, I'd say
Thecla and presumably her khaibit.
>>Does any girl in 
the story have notably small or delicate hands?

>What color are Dorcas' eyes?

"The deep blue of the world-river Uroboros in my dreams" (/SotT/, Ch. XXVI).  "Bits of the azure firmament of some hidden world waiting for Man" (Ch. XXXV).  Those were the first two references I found.  Are there others that suggest anything different?

And what is the purpose of these questions?

I'm changing my answer to Antonio's question.  Maybe Agia and Agilus do make their living from avern duels with unwary travelers.  There must be some reason we're told twice in /SotT/, Ch. XXV, that Agia's been at the Inn of Lost Loves before.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Ranjit Bhatnagar <ranjit at moonmilk.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:19:05 +0000

> Dude, top posting and not-trimming quoted material makes the baby

Official Proclamation: top-posting, while discouraged, is not
forbidden on the urth list, and is on the list of
things-too-trivial-to-complain-about.

Doesn't hurt to remind people to trim quoted material, though!  Yeah,
when you reply, it's best to remove everything but the minimum needed
to make the context clear.

Also, this whole Agia-as-robot thread is pretty fascinating, thanks!

- ranjit

---

From: David Duffy <davidd at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:30:15 +0000

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010, David Stockhoff wrote:

> ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android or just 
> human

Well, it's a common trope that opposite-sex dizygotic twins can be so 
similar that they can cross-dress and confuse others, but in reality they 
are will have an average brother-sister resemblance.  But in Urth, we know 
about the khaibits, so it would be possible to produce genetically 
identical twins aside from the sex chromosomes.  That would be closer to 
the alchemical twinning, I guess. I always had the impression they were 
unusually similar, but couldn't point to any particular descriptive 
passages.

I guess the other thing is after losing Agilus, she becomes Severian's 
evil twin ;)

Cheers, David Duffy.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:54:16 +0000

Yes, exactly. And khaibits are a possible explanation for the twins.

But Agia shows her strength (and her knowledge of weapons) after Agilus 
is dead.

And she's still totally hot, so Severian didn't execute Agia instead of 
Agilus.

David Duffy wrote:
>> ---Agilus could be her actual twin IF she's a genetic/flesh android 
>> or just human
>
> similar that they can cross-dress and confuse others, but in reality 
> they are will have an average brother-sister resemblance.  But in 
> Urth, we know about the khaibits, so it would be possible to produce 
> genetically identical twins aside from the sex chromosomes.  That 
> would be closer to the alchemical twinning, I guess. I always had the 
> impression they were unusually similar, but couldn't point to any 
> particular descriptive passages.
>
> Virus Database (VPS): 100620-1, 06/20/2010
> Tested on: 6/20/2010 6:34:46 PM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 01:43:02 +0000

Dorcas is small and delicate: she has little hands, I believe that is
mentioned.

Her eyes are close to purple...

.

> "The deep blue of the world-river Uroboros in my dreams" (/SotT/, Ch.
> XXVI).  "Bits of the azure firmament of some hidden world waiting for Man"
> (Ch. XXXV).  Those were the first two references I found.  Are there
> others that suggest anything different?
>
> I'm changing my answer to Antonio's question.  Maybe Agia and Agilus do
> make their living from avern duels with unwary travelers.  There must be
> some reason we're told twice in /SotT/, Ch. XXV, that Agia's been at the
> Inn of Lost Loves before.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
>
>
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 01:45:06 +0000

On 6/20/2010 3:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques<entonio at gmail.com>

>> I don't think law or morality has anything to do with her feelings,
> and I think her anger has something to do with Severian's failure to die
> (a point Agilus brought up). It may also have to do with his ability to
> resist her efforts to change his mind. And after Agilus dies, what does
> she have but revenge?

It must seem so unfair that they did everything *right* and they still 
end up getting caught because the mark was superhumanly immune to the 
invariably fatal avern.

>>> can anyone believe that the twins' usual business was killing
>>> unwary
>> Their instant scheme is very striking. Maybe we should imagine that,
> with lots of time on their hands since their shop isn't busy, they've
> talked about what to do if someone brings something valuable in.

Severian believes it is an ongoing scheme, and Agilus does not deny it 
when accused of it in his cell.

> Incidentally, if she is a sex robot or a genetically engineered
 > doxy > or some such, it's remarkable that she'd be eking out a living 
from the
> costume shop. I suppose if she's an assassin, the shop could be her cover.

They both have beyond poor attitudes, so I could see A&A being dismissed 
from whatever service they might have had and forced to get by on their 
domestic skils: mending clothes and minding a shop, and titilating sugar 
daddies or mammas as the opportunity presents.

Though, there is a possibility that A&A are both: her hasty magical 
inscription ties her to the unknown number of faux magicians who oppose 
the the advent of the New Sun, and through them to Vodalus' 
revolutionaries. This anti-Illuminati conspiracy may have encompassed 
them in their searched for a sacred hermaphrodite, and kept them on as 
deniable assets, you never know when a ruthless killer will come in handy.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 04:14:37 +0000

> Her eyes are close to purple...

Oh man, I can't even TRY to puzzle that one out. She IS a poppet candidate, though, I guess (?).

We would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation, since there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her (Boatman, Ouen, etc.).

But here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from the end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene...

.

"'Where is she, the beloved whom I lost?'

#

Dorcas had found a daisy for her hair..."

.

It doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and Severian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be around Jonas). But it's something worth noting.

...ryan

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 04:43:06 +0000

If only Gene Wolfe had written another text, possibly a short story,
exploring the idea of puppets in boxes.  Then maybe someone wiser than I
could draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the
paracoita, which is beyond me.

I will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others to
wisdom.

1)  It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are attributed
to several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one particular
paracoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than a puzzle with a
definite character as the solution, and there may be red herrings...like a
sickening crack of bone on stone being described as as sharp as a metallic
clang.  Or not.

2)  Severian dreams of marionettes that seemingly represent him and
Baldanders.

3)  In Urth, Severian-as-White-Fountain describes Severian-as-Man as a
"marionette of flesh".

4)  An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be taken by
the term "marionette."  It might conceivably please him to make several
female characters in a single work "marionettes" in one sense or another.

5)  Why lemonwood?  After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes to
life is pine.  Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 04:44:34 +0000

Motif.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

> We would have to introduce time traveling or something into the equation,
> since there are several other characters in BotNS who can vouch for her
> (Boatman, Ouen, etc.).
>
> But here's one interesting observation. Check out this scene switch from
> the end of Hethor's rant, to the very next scene scene...
>
> .
>
> It doesn't make a lick of sense, as Hethor traveled with Dorcas and
> Severian without incident (though later we discover Hethor didn't want to be
> around Jonas). But it's something worth noting.
>
> ...ryan
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 05:00:19 +0000

Moreover.  Gene Wolfe (married to Rosemary) wrote The Toy Theatre and used
marionettes as a central image in New Sun.

Did he never think of the pun "Rose-Marionette"?

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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 05:08:33 +0000

On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:43 AM, John Watkins wrote:

> Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.

Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

.

poppet
n. - small human figure used in witchcraft and sorcery c.1300
n. - poetically, a loved one, particularly when the loved one is physically smaller than the lover

paracoita
n. - a female sexual partner

genicon
n. - a sexual partner imagined by one who is dissatisfied by his/her actual partner

scopolagna
n. - a woman whose appearance others find stimulating in the extreme

.

...ryan

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 05:14:18 +0000

She rested in a lemonwood box while not used.  The marionettes in The Toy
Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

> Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif, maybe, but the
> wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
>
> .
>
> poppet
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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 05:17:51 +0000

On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:14 AM, John Watkins wrote:

> She rested in a lemonwood box while not used.  The marionettes in The Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

Sorry, but were you saying Howdy-Doody was made out of lemonwood? Or that his box was? Maybe that was where I got mixed up?

If you're simply noting that Howdy Doody was borne of lemonwood as an aside, then ignore me.

...ryan

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 05:22:57 +0000

I was noting that one reason to associate a doll with lemonwood was that
Howdy Doody was made of lemonwood.  Obviously the "doll" in question here
would not literally be made of wood, so if one wanted to associate wood with
such a doll one would have to use an alternative route, e.g., by having that
doll stored in a box of that wood.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

> Sorry, but were you saying Howdy-Doody was made out of lemonwood? Or that
> his box was? Maybe that was where I got mixed up?
>
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:40:43 +0000

I thought it odd as well ...

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/21/2010 12:16:51 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:59:18 +0000

John

I've been hoping you would chime in. Very good.

A marionette may certainly be made of anything. It's what done with it 
that matters---or what it does.

John Watkins wrote:
> exploring the idea of puppets in boxes.  Then maybe someone wiser than 
> I could draw wisdom from that text and apply it to the problem of the 
> I will make a few observations that, while not wise, may spur others 
> to wisdom.
>  
> 1)  It seems that delicate and/or doll-like characteristics are 
> attributed to several women in the story, but that Hethor meant one 
> particular paracoita--we may just be dealing with a motif, rather than 
> a puzzle with a definite character as the solution, and there may be 
> red herrings...like a sickening crack of bone on stone being described 
> as as sharp as a metallic clang.  Or not.
>  
> 4)  An inveterate punster who was also a devout Catholic might be 
> taken by the term "marionette."  It might conceivably please him to 
> make several female characters in a single work "marionettes" in one 
> sense or another.
>  
> 5)  Why lemonwood?  After all, the classic wood for a doll that comes 
> to life is pine.  Per Google, the Howdy-Doody marionette was lemonwood.
>
>
>          
>
> Tested on: 6/21/2010 12:43:52 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:01:21 +0000

But poppet obviously = puppet.

However, the paracoita may have been a poppet in your first sense too, 
since Hethor is a sorcerer of sorts.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 6/21/2010 1:10:52 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:02:18 +0000

I wasn't going to go there. Huh.

John Watkins wrote:
> She rested in a lemonwood box while not used.  The marionettes in The 
> Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.
>
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com 
> <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>> wrote:
>
>     Not sure if I'm buying the sex toy as a marionette. A motif,
>     maybe, but the wrong imagery from what I have read. Maybe I'm
>     misunderstanding you.
>
>     .
>
>     poppet
> Tested on: 6/21/2010 1:14:53 AM

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:46:06 +0000

> Toy Theatre likewise rested in boxes, and were likewise used as sex toys.

See "Sabra" in 'The Soldier of Sidon'.

U+16B9

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:05:44 +0000

Does anyone know what collection this story is in?

James Wynn wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100621-0, 06/21/2010
> Tested on: 6/21/2010 2:46:43 PM

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:12:56 +0000

> Does anyone know what collection this story is in? 

I presume you mean The Toy Theater.

The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories.

Incidentally, 'On Blue's Waters' is riddled with 'Pinocchio' references.

---

From: Eugene Zaretskiy <eugene.zar at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:37 +0000

> Does anyone know what collection this story is in?

I read it in the recent "The Best of Gene Wolfe" collection.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Gene-Wolfe-Definitive-Retrospective/dp/076532136X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277147539&sr=8-5

I particularly like this collection because every story has commentary
by Gene Wolfe and quite a few of them are hilarious, and the rest
simply insightful.

-- 
Eugene Z
http://blog.eugenez.net

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:18:46 +0000

Thanks to you and James.