Corundum of the Claw

On Tue, June 22, 2010 4:06 pm, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote: Here's my theory. There's probably a better reason it's wrong than my Oz theory. The "claw" is just a flaw at the heart of the jewel. The thorn Severian finds on the shore is just a thorn. The thorns on the rosebush near the end of Citadel are just thorns. It is Severian that makes them holy. On their own, they are just things. Adam

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: On Tue, June 22, 2010 4:06 pm, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:

Here's my theory. There's probably a better reason it's wrong than my Oz theory. The "claw" is just a flaw at the heart of the jewel. The thorn Severian finds on the shore is just a thorn. The thorns on the rosebush near the end of Citadel are just thorns. It is Severian that makes them holy. On their own, they are just things. Adam

If you're saying that the thorn he found was not in in the corundum, I don't agree. The text is pretty clear that the thorn was in the crystal, and even more so, if it's "just a thorn" why is it shining?. from the end of Sword: "I cannot say how it is possible for an object in itself black to give light, but this did. It might have been carved in jet, sodark it was and so highly polished; yet it shone, a claw as long as the last joint of my smallest finger, cruelly hooked and needle-pointed, the reality of that dark core at the heart of the gem, which must have been no more than a container for it, a lipsanotheca or pyx." I agree that Severian is what has made these things special. That he has this (ug, whatever you want to call it) Christ-Like semi-deity role as the Conciliator has imbued this thorn with some resonance of him is pretty clear. I the theological intent of Wolfe comes through pretty clearly to me. Severian has just defeated various symbolic "Foes of God" and broken all false allegiances to worldly institutions, and is now obedient to the role God has for him. This moment is a real clarification of this. Most of what happens in Sword is the defeat of these Foes of God. He "ascends" into the mountains, a vertical metaphor of transcendence, where he defeats the Zooanthropes (men who've surrendered God's gift of consciousness), he defeats the Circle of Sorcerers (men who would work to obstruct the coming of the New Sun), he defeats Typhon, (a man who would be a false god of a corrupt kingdom), and The Man of Science who would storm the gates of heaven. At this point, he really only has to go against the Ascians (Godless / Soulless Men) in this unwitting quest against the Foes of God. When he gives the claw back to the Pelerines and brings Master Ash back, he has literally saved the future from the ice, already. I just think it's really clear that at this point, when he has proven himself against all these traps and foes in his path, he has truly taken on his task, or taken up his cross. He's cleared the field and his shell has been broken away. Yes, he is what makes the claw a shiny, special thing. But this thorn, which, in the age of Ymar was not encased in crystal, has, over the thousands of years where Severian was not alive, become quite literally a crystalized Myth. That myth, carried young Severian to this point, and now he does not really need the myth, he is the essence of it, not that he knows it. _______________________________________________

Son of Witz wrote: One of the unanswered questions about The Claw of the Conciliator is "How did the thorn become encapsulated in corundum?" Nothing I've found in the books gives us a clue to a plot based answer, but I think I've come to understand the symbolism and why it is there. The corundum represents the accumulated body of Myth and Legend that has grown around this artifact of the Conciliator. It's reality is only dimly apprehended through this crystal, as even the Pelerines thought that this was "only a flaw at the heart of the jewel", and our man of science, Baldanders thought the claw was "Nothing. a fragment of corundum." All either really see is the myth, not the reality. Baldanders is closer to the truth perhaps, because his act destroys the crystal enclosure and exposes the naked thorn, just as he know Severian will be the New Sun, and not just it's herald. The moment Severian holds the thorn is the moment that he is truly on his path to becoming the New Sun. Severian doesn't know it yet. Of course, but he has broken all of his false allegiances at this point. after the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing ) light as "the only light we had." He finds the shards, and gives them to the see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed of, he finds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical: "Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and certain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by replacing it with a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt myself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should never return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and again and again I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had gained some inexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a long series of these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand that I should never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with that thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy obedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because there was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least tincture of rebellion." There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is taking up the mantle. Somewhere it dawned on me that what Wolfe does, at least as far as I've read is to write the memoirs of exceptional, legendary characters who don't know that they are exceptional. Having only read the Suns, the Soldiers and the Wizard Knight, this seems to hold up. _______________________________________________

On Jun 22, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote: If you're saying that the thorn he found was not in in the corundum, I don't agree. The text is pretty clear that the thorn was in the crystal, and even more so, if it's "just a thorn" why is it shining?.

The corundum represents the accumulated body of Myth and Legend that has grown around this artifact of the Conciliator. Its reality is only dimly apprehended through this crystal, as even the Pelerines thought that this was "only a flaw at the heart of the jewel", and our man of science, Baldanders thought the claw was "Nothing. a fragment of corundum." All either really see is the myth, not the reality.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: after the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing ) light as "the only light we had." He finds the shards, and gives them to the see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed of, he finds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical: "Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and certain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by replacing it with a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt myself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should never return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and again and again I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had gained some inexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a long series of these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand that I should never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with that thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy obedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because there was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least tincture of rebellion." There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is taking up the mantle.

Hello, I have been trying to define for myself how Malrubius and Triskele (and other aquastors) are portrayed in the "real world" of Urth. Without sparking an entire dissertation, could someone confirm if this is about right?

On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: the controller of their projecting machinery

On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

the controller of their projecting machinery

Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or someone else (Father Inire? The Autarch?).

On Jun 23, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: the controller of their projecting machinery

Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or someone else (Father Inire? The Autarch?).

The only controllers we can confirm are FB&O. Inire is almost certainly one, and some of the squatty, long-armed characters suspected to be him in disguise might be his aquastor proxies instead.

On Jun 23, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

the controller of their projecting machinery

Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or someone else (Father Inire? The Autarch?).

The only controllers we can confirm are FB&O. Inire is almost certainly one, and some of the squatty, long-armed characters suspected to be him in disguise might be his aquastor proxies instead.

Ah yes, I always assumed Ossipago was Father Inire (same with the picture cleaner, and Palaemon).

But can the projectors send the aquastor visions from anywhere, or do they have to be within proximity?

Hello, I have been trying to define for myself how Malrubius and Triskele (and other aquastors) are portrayed in the "real world" of Urth. Without sparking an entire dissertation, could someone confirm if this is about right? In its basest terms: An aquastor is a physically substantial vision meant for a specific person(s) to see. They are not real in terms of "reality", but nor are they insubstantial specters in "ghostly" sense. Is this correct? And from where are they borne? The mind of the recipient of the vision? Or do they exist outside of the recipient's psyche? Taking Severian at his word, when Triskele and Malrubius visit him at the campfire after the play, Dr. Talos does not see them but Severian describes his side feeling warm after the aquastors disappeared. Thanks. ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Wed, June 23, 2010 6:34 pm, Gerry Quinn wrote: I think you are reading for too negative a meaning into certain things. For a start, the New Sun is welcome despite the destruction, which is predicted in advance by various people; it means continuing life on Urth, rather than a slow dying over a few thousand years (Master Ash's future). He brings not Peace, but a Sword, you might say. What coming of Christ does Sev ward off? No Christ is coming to the moribund Urth we meet at the beginning of the story. - Gerry Quinn From: Mr Thalassocrat There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is taking up the mantle. The most interesting question for me is whether this unquestioning acceptance is supposed to be a good thing. The Claw is only special because it has been soaked in Sev's blood, while he was on the Ship (or at least that's what giant-moth-woman-Morlock-bureaucrat Apheta tells him in UOTNS). The religion of the New Sun only exists because of Sev's actions in "the past". When he prays at the altar of the Pelerines in the lazarette, he finds that he is praying to himself. If you can import a notion from Long Sun/Short Sun, Sev's strivings lead only back to himself, not outside, to the "Outsider". And contrast Silk and SilkHorn's enlightenment and experience of the presence of God, with the thoughtless, formless, fundamentally non-intellectual nature of Sev's experience in this quote. Personally, I don't think Wolfe has any time for this kind of mystical experience, separated from the intellect. I read Pirate Freedom as a critique of it - the worthlessness of feeling all holy when it's separated from the conscious will to actually do good stuff. Sev, the avatar of his religion, of course ends up responsible for the death of most of the people of Urth, without really thinking about what he's actually doing or having clear sense of why. When you first read New Sun, and see the strange parallels between the life of Christ and Sev's life, it's natural to wonder if it isn't all a little blasphemous, coming from a Christian writer. I think the answer is that Sev's career is indeed a kind of blasphemy. He says to Aphata that he is worried that the Hieros are like the magicians, promising wonders & delivering evil. I think Sev for them serves much the same purpose as the mutilated cock he & little Sev find, before they encounter the magicians. The cock is a piece of apotropaic magic to ward off the coming of the New Sun. I think the Hieros have moulded Sev as a tool to ward off the coming of Christ, in some sense. _______________________________________________

On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote: There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a "Christian figure" or a "Christ figure". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian was marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now we are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert garden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not just Christianity in general.

On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote: On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:

There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a "Christian figure" or a "Christ figure". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian was marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now we are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert garden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not just Christianity in general.

By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the orthodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries which have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations. First there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book in front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being described as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like, rather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear); this injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the throne-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin kills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens the avern-wound. Then there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks into the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book. The lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires in battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to relate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his novel King Jesus (... There's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's weapon. ... .... The whole subject is spooky enough already. regards JD _______________________________________________

On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:

On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:

There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a "Christian figure" or a "Christ figure". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian was marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now we are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert garden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not just Christianity in general.

By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the orthodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries which have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations. First there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book in front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being described as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like, rather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear); this injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the throne-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin kills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens the avern-wound. Then there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks into the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book. The lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires in battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to relate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his novel King Jesus (... There's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's weapon. ... .... The whole subject is spooky enough already. regards JD _______________________________________________

Good post. I can chew on that for a while. _______________________________________________

On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:

On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:

There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a "Christian figure" or a "Christ figure". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian was marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now we are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert garden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not just Christianity in general.

By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the orthodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries which have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations. First there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book in front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being described as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like, rather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear); this injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the throne-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin kills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens the avern-wound. Then there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks into the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book. The lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires in battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to relate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his novel King Jesus (... There's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's weapon. ... .... The whole subject is spooky enough already. regards JD _______________________________________________

Good post. I can chew on that for a while. _______________________________________________

Just in case anyone doubts lupine relevance. ___ Olaf was the subject of several biographies, both hagiographies and sagas, in the Middle Ages, and many of the historical facts concerning his reign are disputed. The best known description is the one in Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla, from c. 1230. That saga cannot be taken as an accurate source for Olaf's life, but most of the following description is based on the narrative there (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_II_of_Norway). --- .

On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:

On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:

There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a "Christian figure" or a "Christ figure". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian was marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now we are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert garden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not just Christianity in general.

By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the orthodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries which have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations. First there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book in front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being described as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like, rather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear); this injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the throne-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin kills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens the avern-wound. Then there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks into the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book. The lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires in battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to relate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his novel King Jesus (... There's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's weapon. ... .... The whole subject is spooky enough already. regards JD _______________________________________________

Good post. I can chew on that for a while. _______________________________________________

Mr Thalassocrat wrote: On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <mailto:sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>> wrote: after the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing ) light as "the only light we had." He finds the shards, and gives them to the see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed of, he finds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical: "Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and certain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by replacing it with a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt myself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should never return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and again and again I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had gained some inexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a long series of these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand that I should never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with that thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy obedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because there was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least tincture of rebellion." There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is taking up the mantle. The most interesting question for me is whether this unquestioning acceptance is supposed to be a good thing. The Claw is only special because it has been soaked in Sev's blood, while he was on the Ship (or at least that's what giant-moth-woman-Morlock-bureaucrat Apheta tells him in UOTNS). The religion of the New Sun only exists because of Sev's actions in "the past". When he prays at the altar of the Pelerines in the lazarette, he finds that he is praying to himself. If you can import a notion from Long Sun/Short Sun, Sev's strivings lead only back to himself, not outside, to the "Outsider". And contrast Silk and SilkHorn's enlightenment and experience of the presence of God, with the thoughtless, formless, fundamentally non-intellectual nature of Sev's experience in this quote. Personally, I don't think Wolfe has any time for this kind of mystical experience, separated from the intellect. I read Pirate Freedom as a critique of it - the worthlessness of feeling all holy when it's separated from the conscious will to actually do good stuff. Sev, the avatar of his religion, of course ends up responsible for the death of most of the people of Urth, without really thinking about what he's actually doing or having clear sense of why. When you first read New Sun, and see the strange parallels between the life of Christ and Sev's life, it's natural to wonder if it isn't all a little blasphemous, coming from a Christian writer. I think the answer is that Sev's career is indeed a kind of blasphemy. He says to Aphata that he is worried that the Hieros are like the magicians, promising wonders & delivering evil. I think Sev for them serves much the same purpose as the mutilated cock he & little Sev find, before they encounter the magicians. The cock is a piece of apotropaic magic to ward off the coming of the New Sun. I think the Hieros have moulded Sev as a tool to ward off the coming of Christ, in some sense. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:35 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence. Yes. By flooding. My memory of Genesis is pretty hazy, but isn't there a bit in it where God says he won't do that again?

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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:53 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote: I sort of can't believe we're having this discussion again, so I will simply restate my point. 1) ?Gene Wolfe tells us he's an orthodox Catholic, and we have no reason to disbelieve him. 2) ?Severian is pretty clearly not literally the Jesus guy orthodox Catholics say they believe in. ?He is a killer, likely a rapist, interested in worldy power, et cetera. 3) ?Severian is also pretty clearly surrounded by Christlike imagery. Some of this seems almost parodic, some of it seems almost reverent. There are many hypotheses consistent with these facts. ?The hypotheses that aren't consistent are a) ?Severian is a literal stand-in for Jesus Christ as understood by the author, b) ?The author just screwed up and put in a lot of Jesus stuff for no reason.

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On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote: And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:58 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote: That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote: Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he is far from the literal anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:58 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:

That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". ?Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:58 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote: That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On 6/24/2010 1:58 PM, John Watkins wrote: That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.

On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:22 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: On 6/24/2010 1:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:

That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.

Wolfe has said that he's not inclined to express his faith in everything he's writes. He used OS Card as a counter-analogy. Figuratively, Severian is Christ....the gnostic Christ. Not the orthodox or Catholic Christ.

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

From the horse's mouth.

That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:48 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: Severian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ.

From the horse's mouth.

.

That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". ?Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:48 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: Severian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ.

From the horse's mouth.

.

That's is an awfully thin reed for "Severian is supposed to literally be Jesus" rather than "Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in important ways". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a non-believer, but the author is not a non-believer. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it. Severian comes to carry out a death sentence.

I definitely feel that "the Sev is not divine" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he "carried out a death sentance". This view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that. Severian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves. Fuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. I'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point. It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz _______________________________________________

On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote: If that horse is a wolf, then I think the case is closed! :) On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:48 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: Severian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ.

From the horse's mouth.

Good post. I can chew on that for a while.

On 24/06/10 18:20, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote: It had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing. ~witz

brunians at brunians.org wrote: Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword. He comes to judge the World, or that is what is said. It is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements. .

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:46 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword. He comes to judge the World, or that is what is said. It is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements. .

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________

Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword. He comes to judge the World, or that is what is said. It is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements. .

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________

Unless it was all made up. Or none of it was. In other words, there isn't really a lot of hard evidence to go by. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:46 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword. He comes to judge the World, or that is what is said. It is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements. .

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: So? .

Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later. brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword. He comes to judge the World, or that is what is said. It is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements. .

And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that Jesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip. Witz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm more likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as some sort of anti-christ. On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org < Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like? ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: He has denied him being Christ. He has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body. .

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. “But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like” ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote: Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept. The statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a member of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

He has denied him being Christ. He has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body. .

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus.

But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like? ...ryan _______________________________________________

Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept. The statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a member of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

He has denied him being Christ. He has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body. .

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. “But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like” ...ryan _______________________________________________

I don't think so. "The mystical Body of Christ" is another way of saying "the Church"--but not the human institution, or any particular human institution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls "the blessed company of all faithful people". I don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that Severian is intended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians (including me), he makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets right are more or less by accident. Or Grace--but that's another sermon, innit? On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote:

Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept. The statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a member of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

He has denied him being Christ. He has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body. .

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus.

But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like? ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Jun 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote: I don't think so. "The mystical Body of Christ" is another way of saying "the Church"--but not the human institution, or any particular human institution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls "the blessed company of all faithful people". I don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that Severian is intended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians (including me), he makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets right are more or less by accident. Or Grace--but that's another sermon, innit? On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote: Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept. The statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a member of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

He has denied him being Christ. He has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body. .

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like? ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P

Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P On Jun 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think so. "The mystical Body of Christ" is another way of saying "the Church"--but not the human institution, or any particular human institution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls "the blessed company of all faithful people". I don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that Severian is intended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians (including me), he makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets right are more or less by accident. Or Grace--but that's another sermon, innit? On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote: Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept. The statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a member of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

He has denied him being Christ. He has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body. .

On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus.

But he is far from the literal anti-christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like? ...ryan _______________________________________________

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P

At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem "The Pearl" would be in order. Or perhaps not. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes _______________________________________________

On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: The reading of the Victorian magazine "privately published for gentlemen" of the same name, definitely not. Though there are some interesting parts involving whips. .

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P

At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem "The Pearl" would be in order. Or perhaps not. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes _______________________________________________

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P

At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem "The Pearl" would be in order. Or perhaps not.

Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote: Snap! On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

The reading of the Victorian magazine "privately published for gentlemen" of the same name, definitely not. Though there are some interesting parts involving whips. .

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P

At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem "The Pearl" would be in order. Or perhaps not. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes _______________________________________________

No doubt there's an article in it about how the Carpenter never made anything BUT a whip. Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:

Snap! On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

The reading of the Victorian magazine "privately published for gentlemen" of the same name, definitely not. Though there are some interesting parts involving whips. .

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Yeah yeah yeah guys. I wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? you fuckers jacked my topic. It's called Corundum of the Claw Not Conundrum of the Christ :P

At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem "The Pearl" would be in order. Or perhaps not. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes _______________________________________________