{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5639", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5639, "subject": "Corundum of the Claw", "messages": 60, "voices": 16, "first": "2010-06-22T17:31:45+00:00", "last": "2010-06-26T17:40:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-22T17:31:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the unanswered questions about The Claw of the Conciliator is \"How\ndid the thorn become encapsulated in corundum?\"\n\nNothing I've found in the books gives us a clue to a plot based answer,\nbut I think I've come to understand the symbolism and why it is there.\n\nThe corundum represents the accumulated body of Myth and Legend that has\ngrown around this artifact of the Conciliator. It's reality is only dimly\napprehended through this crystal, as even the Pelerines thought that this\nwas \"only a flaw at the heart of the jewel\", and our man of science,\nBaldanders thought the claw was \"Nothing. a fragment of corundum.\" All\neither really see is the myth, not the reality. Baldanders is closer to\nthe truth perhaps, because his act destroys the crystal enclosure and\nexposes the naked thorn, just as he know Severian will be the New Sun, and\nnot just it's herald. The moment Severian holds the thorn is the moment\nthat he is truly on his path to becoming the New Sun. Severian doesn't\nknow it yet. Of course, but he has broken all of his false allegiances at\nthis point.\n\nafter the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing )\nlight as \"the only light we had.\" He finds the shards, and gives them to\nthe see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed of, he\nfinds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical:\n\n\"Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and\ncertain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by replacing it\nwith a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt\nmyself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should\nnever return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and again and\nagain I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had gained some\ninexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a long series\nof these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand that I\nshould never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with\nthat thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy\nobedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because\nthere was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least\ntincture of rebellion.\"\n\nThere, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least\ntincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is\ntaking up the mantle.\n\n\nSomewhere it dawned on me that what Wolfe does, at least as far as I've\nread is to write the memoirs of exceptional, legendary characters who\ndon't know that they are exceptional. Having only read the Suns, the\nSoldiers and the Wizard Knight, this seems to hold up." } ] }, { "message_id": "<47b839e862d23af21b4e178a97e26fa1@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-22T20:06:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's my theory. There's probably a better reason it's wrong than my Oz\ntheory.\n\nThe \"claw\" is just a flaw at the heart of the jewel. The thorn Severian\nfinds on the shore is just a thorn. The thorns on the rosebush near the\nend of _Citadel_ are just thorns. It is Severian that makes them holy. On\ntheir own, they are just things.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0ec0bfd3a175a3917ce38d7759818133.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-22T21:38:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<47b839e862d23af21b4e178a97e26fa1@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, June 22, 2010 4:06 pm, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:\n\nHere's my theory. There's probably a better reason it's wrong than my Oz\ntheory.\n\nThe \"claw\" is just a flaw at the heart of the jewel. The thorn Severian\nfinds on the shore is just a thorn. The thorns on the rosebush near the\nend of _Citadel_ are just thorns. It is Severian that makes them holy.\nOn\ntheir own, they are just things.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you're saying that the thorn he found was not in in the corundum, I\ndon't agree. The text is pretty clear that the thorn was in the crystal,\nand even more so, if it's \"just a thorn\" why is it shining?.\n\nfrom the end of Sword:\n\"I cannot say how it is possible for an object in itself black to give\nlight, but this did. It might have been carved in jet, sodark it was and\nso highly polished; yet it shone, a claw as long as the last joint of my\nsmallest finger, cruelly hooked and needle-pointed, the reality of that\ndark core at the heart of the gem, which must have been no more than a\ncontainer for it, a lipsanotheca or pyx.\"\n\nI agree that Severian is what has made these things special. That he has\nthis (ug, whatever you want to call it) Christ-Like semi-deity role as the\nConciliator has imbued this thorn with some resonance of him is pretty\nclear. I the theological intent of Wolfe comes through pretty clearly to\nme. Severian has just defeated various symbolic \"Foes of God\" and broken\nall false allegiances to worldly institutions, and is now obedient to the\nrole God has for him. This moment is a real clarification of this. Most\nof what happens in Sword is the defeat of these Foes of God. He \"ascends\"\ninto the mountains, a vertical metaphor of transcendence, where he defeats\nthe Zooanthropes (men who've surrendered God's gift of consciousness), he\ndefeats the Circle of Sorcerers (men who would work to obstruct the coming\nof the New Sun), he defeats Typhon, (a man who would be a false god of a\ncorrupt kingdom), and The Man of Science who would storm the gates of\nheaven. At this point, he really only has to go against the Ascians\n(Godless / Soulless Men) in this unwitting quest against the Foes of God. \nWhen he gives the claw back to the Pelerines and brings Master Ash back,\nhe has literally saved the future from the ice, already.\n\nI just think it's really clear that at this point, when he has proven\nhimself against all these traps and foes in his path, he has truly taken\non his task, or taken up his cross. He's cleared the field and his shell\nhas been broken away.\n\nYes, he is what makes the claw a shiny, special thing. But this thorn,\nwhich, in the age of Ymar was not encased in crystal, has, over the\nthousands of years where Severian was not alive, become quite literally a\ncrystalized Myth. That myth, carried young Severian to this point, and now\nhe does not really need the myth, he is the essence of it, not that he\nknows it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-22T21:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<0ec0bfd3a175a3917ce38d7759818133.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah Mike, this was great. I really think this nails it, and encapsulates\nthe holographic majesty of Wolfe's work here. Adam, I think there was a\nclaw in the stone, and I think it's the same claw that Severian finds on the\nrosebush near the end of citidel, and winds up taking back with him to the\npast, in UotNS, so it is yet another closed loop.\n\nIf there is *any* power to the thorn at all, it comes directly from sev.\nHis blood does get on it, so perhaps a portion of the power he gains from\nthe white fountain is passed on to it, but I'm more inclined to think it has\nno real power in itself, other than to serve as a focus for Severian and his\nmanefistations.\n\nBut as a symbol, it is priceless, and what Wolfe does with it is\nmagnificent. I think Witz clearly draws out where it stands in the\nnarrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Tue, June 22, 2010 4:06 pm, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's my theory. There's probably a better reason it's wrong than my Oz\ntheory.\n\nThe \"claw\" is just a flaw at the heart of the jewel. The thorn Severian\nfinds on the shore is just a thorn. The thorns on the rosebush near the\nend of _Citadel_ are just thorns. It is Severian that makes them holy.\nOn\ntheir own, they are just things.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're saying that the thorn he found was not in in the corundum, I\ndon't agree. The text is pretty clear that the thorn was in the crystal,\nand even more so, if it's \"just a thorn\" why is it shining?.\n\nfrom the end of Sword:\n\"I cannot say how it is possible for an object in itself black to give\nlight, but this did. It might have been carved in jet, sodark it was and\nso highly polished; yet it shone, a claw as long as the last joint of my\nsmallest finger, cruelly hooked and needle-pointed, the reality of that\ndark core at the heart of the gem, which must have been no more than a\ncontainer for it, a lipsanotheca or pyx.\"\n\nI agree that Severian is what has made these things special. That he has\nthis (ug, whatever you want to call it) Christ-Like semi-deity role as the\nConciliator has imbued this thorn with some resonance of him is pretty\nclear. I the theological intent of Wolfe comes through pretty clearly to\nme. Severian has just defeated various symbolic \"Foes of God\" and broken\nall false allegiances to worldly institutions, and is now obedient to the\nrole God has for him. This moment is a real clarification of this. Most\nof what happens in Sword is the defeat of these Foes of God. He \"ascends\"\ninto the mountains, a vertical metaphor of transcendence, where he defeats\nthe Zooanthropes (men who've surrendered God's gift of consciousness), he\ndefeats the Circle of Sorcerers (men who would work to obstruct the coming\nof the New Sun), he defeats Typhon, (a man who would be a false god of a\ncorrupt kingdom), and The Man of Science who would storm the gates of\nheaven. At this point, he really only has to go against the Ascians\n(Godless / Soulless Men) in this unwitting quest against the Foes of God.\nWhen he gives the claw back to the Pelerines and brings Master Ash back,\nhe has literally saved the future from the ice, already.\n\nI just think it's really clear that at this point, when he has proven\nhimself against all these traps and foes in his path, he has truly taken\non his task, or taken up his cross. He's cleared the field and his shell\nhas been broken away.\n\nYes, he is what makes the claw a shiny, special thing. But this thorn,\nwhich, in the age of Ymar was not encased in crystal, has, over the\nthousands of years where Severian was not alive, become quite literally a\ncrystalized Myth. That myth, carried young Severian to this point, and now\nhe does not really need the myth, he is the essence of it, not that he\nknows it.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C21370E.4080200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-22T22:19:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a great quote. Very suggestive. One wonders if Wolfe felt \nanything like this during his conversion to Catholicism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nOne of the unanswered questions about The Claw of the Conciliator is \"How\ndid the thorn become encapsulated in corundum?\"\n\nNothing I've found in the books gives us a clue to a plot based answer,\nbut I think I've come to understand the symbolism and why it is there.\n\nThe corundum represents the accumulated body of Myth and Legend that has\ngrown around this artifact of the Conciliator. It's reality is only dimly\napprehended through this crystal, as even the Pelerines thought that this\nwas \"only a flaw at the heart of the jewel\", and our man of science,\nBaldanders thought the claw was \"Nothing. a fragment of corundum.\" All\neither really see is the myth, not the reality. Baldanders is closer to\nthe truth perhaps, because his act destroys the crystal enclosure and\nexposes the naked thorn, just as he know Severian will be the New Sun, and\nnot just it's herald. The moment Severian holds the thorn is the moment\nthat he is truly on his path to becoming the New Sun. Severian doesn't\nknow it yet. Of course, but he has broken all of his false allegiances at\nthis point.\n\nafter the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing )\nlight as \"the only light we had.\" He finds the shards, and gives them to\nthe see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed of, he\nfinds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical:\n\n\"Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and\ncertain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by replacing it\nwith a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt\nmyself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should\nnever return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and again and\nagain I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had gained some\ninexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a long series\nof these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand that I\nshould never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with\nthat thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy\nobedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because\nthere was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least\ntincture of rebellion.\"\n\nThere, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least\ntincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is\ntaking up the mantle.\n\n\nSomewhere it dawned on me that what Wolfe does, at least as far as I've\nread is to write the memoirs of exceptional, legendary characters who\ndon't know that they are exceptional. Having only read the Suns, the\nSoldiers and the Wizard Knight, this seems to hold up.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T00:52:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<0ec0bfd3a175a3917ce38d7759818133.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just wanted to recall what Severian and Dorcas talk about just after they see the floating building over Nessus...\n\nHe tells Dorcas that within the brown book are all the keys of the universe used in the past. One of them is that everything has three meanings: 1) Its practical meaning, 2) the reflection of the world around it, and 3) its transsubstantial meaning (that all objects originate in the Pancreator, and so all must express his will).\n\nDorcas asks if he means the floating building was a sign, to which he replies everything is a sign.\n\nThey walk in silence for some time. As Dorcas posits that the brown book means people have it all backward (that the third is the easiest to find, the first the hardest).\n\nI think this is true especially of the claw, which is what caused the building vision (pelerine's tent?), I think.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 22, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nIf you're saying that the thorn he found was not in in the corundum, I\ndon't agree. The text is pretty clear that the thorn was in the crystal,\nand even more so, if it's \"just a thorn\" why is it shining?." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T11:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The corundum represents the accumulated body of Myth and Legend that has\ngrown around this artifact of the Conciliator. Its reality is only dimly\napprehended through this crystal, as even the Pelerines thought that this\nwas \"only a flaw at the heart of the jewel\", and our man of science,\nBaldanders thought the claw was \"Nothing. a fragment of corundum.\" All\neither really see is the myth, not the reality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nVery nice post Son O'Witz! I think Baldanders also calls it a \"monument of \nsuperstition\" or something like that.\n \nWhile the symbolism is poignant, I (too?) think the sapphire enclosure is\nsignificant enough through 2.5 books to deserve a narrative explanation for\nhow it came to surround the thorn.\n \nThere has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a \"Christian figure\"\nor a \"Christ figure\". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian\nwas marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now\nwe are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert\ngarden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not\njust Christianity in general. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T12:53:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nafter the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing )\nlight as \"the only light we had.\" He finds the shards, and gives them to\nthe see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed of, he\nfinds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical:\n\n\"Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and\ncertain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by replacing it\nwith a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt\nmyself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should\nnever return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and again and\nagain I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had gained some\ninexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a long series\nof these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand that I\nshould never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with\nthat thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy\nobedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because\nthere was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least\ntincture of rebellion.\"\n\nThere, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least\ntincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is\ntaking up the mantle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most interesting question for me is whether this unquestioning\nacceptance is supposed to be a *good* thing.\n\n The Claw is only special because it has been soaked in Sev's blood, while\nhe was on the Ship (or at least that's what\ngiant-moth-woman-Morlock-bureaucrat Apheta tells him in UOTNS). The religion\nof the New Sun only exists because of Sev's actions in \"the past\". When he\nprays at the altar of the Pelerines in the lazarette, he finds that he is\npraying to himself.\n\nIf you can import a notion from Long Sun/Short Sun, Sev's strivings lead\nonly back to himself, not outside, to the \"Outsider\".\n\nAnd contrast Silk and SilkHorn's enlightenment and experience of the\npresence of God, with the thoughtless, formless, fundamentally\nnon-intellectual nature of Sev's experience in this quote. Personally, I\ndon't think Wolfe has any time for this kind of mystical experience,\nseparated from the intellect. I read Pirate Freedom as a critique of it -\nthe worthlessness of feeling all holy when it's separated from the conscious\nwill to actually do good stuff.\n\nSev, the avatar of *his* religion, of course ends up responsible for\nthe death of most of the people of Urth, without really thinking about what\nhe's actually doing or having clear sense of why.\n\nWhen you first read New Sun, and see the strange parallels between the life\nof Christ and Sev's life, it's natural to wonder if it isn't all a little\nblasphemous, coming from a Christian writer.\n\nI think the answer is that Sev's career is indeed a kind of blasphemy. He\nsays to Aphata that he is worried that the Hieros are like the magicians,\npromising wonders & delivering evil.\n\nI think Sev for them serves much the same purpose as the mutilated cock he &\nlittle Sev find, before they encounter the magicians. The cock is a piece of\napotropaic magic to ward off the coming of the New Sun. I think the Hieros\nhave moulded Sev as a tool to ward off the coming of Christ, in some sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<23D78781-6953-40D8-8D41-959302542741@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T13:37:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello,\n\nI have been trying to define for myself how Malrubius and Triskele (and other aquastors) are portrayed in the \"real world\" of Urth. Without sparking an entire dissertation, could someone confirm if this is about right? In its basest terms:\n\nAn aquastor is a physically substantial vision meant for a specific person(s) to see. They are not real in terms of \"reality\", but nor are they insubstantial specters in \"ghostly\" sense.\n\nIs this correct? And from where are they borne? The mind of the recipient of the vision? Or do they exist outside of the recipient's psyche?\n\nTaking Severian at his word, when Triskele and Malrubius visit him at the campfire after the play, Dr. Talos does not see them but Severian describes his side feeling warm after the aquastors disappeared.\n\nThanks.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6929abb7eef6a9b83d1d7c930ecd7f10.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T16:35:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "<23D78781-6953-40D8-8D41-959302542741@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hello,\n\nI have been trying to define for myself how Malrubius and Triskele (and\nother aquastors) are portrayed in the \"real world\" of Urth. Without\nsparking an entire dissertation, could someone confirm if this is about\nright?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are like the tactile holograms in various media, particularly the\ndoctor from Star Trek Voyager. They can appear just to one person\nmentally, or they can be objectively visible, and they can have temporary\nsubstance, leaving footprints, breathing in and out, and giving off body\nheat or even fighting and wounding real people. Aquastors can appear and\ndisappear pretty much at any time, and they might or might not remember\nfrom appearance to appearance as the controller of their projecting\nmachinery dictates.\n\nAn eidolon is an aquastor made with access to a living or once living\noriginal. It can thus have the original person's memories and free will.\nIf one lasts long enough, it can assimilate enough real matter through\neating and drinking to sustain itself without the hidden machinery. (This\nhappens to Severian more than once.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8BF0D77F-AC4C-46E7-BFC1-C92FCB96C2CF@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T17:23:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "<6929abb7eef6a9b83d1d7c930ecd7f10.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nthe controller of their projecting machinery" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or someone else (Father Inire? The Autarch?).\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5454e8587b0f121ead27afb168f2cecf.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T17:46:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "<8BF0D77F-AC4C-46E7-BFC1-C92FCB96C2CF@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the controller of their projecting machinery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or someone\nelse (Father Inire? The Autarch?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only controllers we can confirm are FB&O. Inire is almost certainly\none, and some of the squatty, long-armed characters suspected to be him in\ndisguise might be his aquastor proxies instead." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T18:06:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "<5454e8587b0f121ead27afb168f2cecf.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 23, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nthe controller of their projecting machinery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or someone\nelse (Father Inire? The Autarch?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only controllers we can confirm are FB&O. Inire is almost certainly\none, and some of the squatty, long-armed characters suspected to be him in\ndisguise might be his aquastor proxies instead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah yes, I always assumed Ossipago was Father Inire (same with the picture cleaner, and Palaemon).\n\nBut can the projectors send the aquastor visions from anywhere, or do they have to be within proximity?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-23T21:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 23, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "the controller of their projecting machinery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is the controller, in the case of Severian, in fact, Severian? Or\nsomeone\nelse (Father Inire? The Autarch?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only controllers we can confirm are FB&O. Inire is almost certainly\none, and some of the squatty, long-armed characters suspected to be him\nin\ndisguise might be his aquastor proxies instead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah yes, I always assumed Ossipago was Father Inire (same with the picture\ncleaner, and Palaemon)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they are of a race and in league, but not the same person.\nOssipago's quite gruff, while Inire's kindly; Ossipago goes where he is\nneeded, Inire holds down the fort." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But can the projectors send the aquastor visions from anywhere, or do they\nhave to be within proximity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The LEXICON URTHUS author also wrote a role-playing supplement on the\nsetting, and IIRC in it he speculates they have planetary range. There\nseem to be more powerful ones at work in Yesod and/or on the Ship that\nmaintain the newly eidoloned Severian during his leap between universes\nand can reach across a century of time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-23T22:34:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are reading for too negative a meaning into certain things. For a start, the New Sun is welcome despite the destruction, which is predicted in advance by various people; it means continuing life on Urth, rather than a slow dying over a few thousand years (Master Ash's future). He brings not Peace, but a Sword, you might say.\n\nWhat coming of Christ does Sev ward off? No Christ is coming to the moribund Urth we meet at the beginning of the story.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n From: Mr Thalassocrat \n\n There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the least\n tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is\n taking up the mantle.\n\n The most interesting question for me is whether this unquestioning acceptance is supposed to be a *good* thing.\n\n The Claw is only special because it has been soaked in Sev's blood, while he was on the Ship (or at least that's what giant-moth-woman-Morlock-bureaucrat Apheta tells him in UOTNS). The religion of the New Sun only exists because of Sev's actions in \"the past\". When he prays at the altar of the Pelerines in the lazarette, he finds that he is praying to himself. \n\n If you can import a notion from Long Sun/Short Sun, Sev's strivings lead only back to himself, not outside, to the \"Outsider\".\n\n And contrast Silk and SilkHorn's enlightenment and experience of the presence of God, with the thoughtless, formless, fundamentally non-intellectual nature of Sev's experience in this quote. Personally, I don't think Wolfe has any time for this kind of mystical experience, separated from the intellect. I read Pirate Freedom as a critique of it - the worthlessness of feeling all holy when it's separated from the conscious will to actually do good stuff. \n\n Sev, the avatar of *his* religion, of course ends up responsible for the death of most of the people of Urth, without really thinking about what he's actually doing or having clear sense of why. \n\n When you first read New Sun, and see the strange parallels between the life of Christ and Sev's life, it's natural to wonder if it isn't all a little blasphemous, coming from a Christian writer. \n\n I think the answer is that Sev's career is indeed a kind of blasphemy. He says to Aphata that he is worried that the Hieros are like the magicians, promising wonders & delivering evil. \n\n I think Sev for them serves much the same purpose as the mutilated cock he & little Sev find, before they encounter the magicians. The cock is a piece of apotropaic magic to ward off the coming of the New Sun. I think the Hieros have moulded Sev as a tool to ward off the coming of Christ, in some sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8a38fbabb12add32a74159c4b4d13d9d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-23T23:08:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplest Definition of an Aquastor?", "in_reply_to": "<23D78781-6953-40D8-8D41-959302542741@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose an aquastor lacks quastor.\n\nWhat is quastor?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hello,\n\nI have been trying to define for myself how Malrubius and Triskele (and\nother aquastors) are portrayed in the \"real world\" of Urth. Without\nsparking an entire dissertation, could someone confirm if this is about\nright? In its basest terms:\n\nAn aquastor is a physically substantial vision meant for a specific\nperson(s) to see. They are not real in terms of \"reality\", but nor are\nthey insubstantial specters in \"ghostly\" sense.\n\nIs this correct? And from where are they borne? The mind of the recipient\nof the vision? Or do they exist outside of the recipient's psyche?\n\nTaking Severian at his word, when Triskele and Malrubius visit him at the\ncampfire after the play, Dr. Talos does not see them but Severian\ndescribes his side feeling warm after the aquastors disappeared.\n\nThanks.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6cbcb87ef28e30ec7c7a9ee0a8663728.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-23T23:38:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've got issues with that reading too.\nI've posted here before how I see Severian as a QuasiChrist, as an actual\navatar of the Logos. I'm NOT trying to crack that argument open again\nthough. Severian actually embodies The Outsider, rather than being some\nsolipsistic self referential loop. But boy, I've laid that out on URTH\nhere to many people's dismay, so I'm going to hold back from offering more\nof the same. But as a simple answer to \"is obedience to God a good thing\",\nwell, if you have to ask, you'll never know.\n\nnot that I'm all devout and pious....\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, June 23, 2010 6:34 pm, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI think you are reading for too negative a meaning into certain things.\nFor a start, the New Sun is welcome despite the destruction, which is\npredicted in advance by various people; it means continuing life on Urth,\nrather than a slow dying over a few thousand years (Master Ash's future).\nHe brings not Peace, but a Sword, you might say.\n\nWhat coming of Christ does Sev ward off? No Christ is coming to the\nmoribund Urth we meet at the beginning of the story.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n From: Mr Thalassocrat\n\n There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without the\nleast\n tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now he is\n taking up the mantle.\n\n The most interesting question for me is whether this unquestioning\nacceptance is supposed to be a *good* thing.\n\n The Claw is only special because it has been soaked in Sev's blood,\nwhile he was on the Ship (or at least that's what\ngiant-moth-woman-Morlock-bureaucrat Apheta tells him in UOTNS). The\nreligion of the New Sun only exists because of Sev's actions in \"the\npast\". When he prays at the altar of the Pelerines in the lazarette, he\nfinds that he is praying to himself.\n\n If you can import a notion from Long Sun/Short Sun, Sev's strivings lead\nonly back to himself, not outside, to the \"Outsider\".\n\n And contrast Silk and SilkHorn's enlightenment and experience of the\npresence of God, with the thoughtless, formless, fundamentally\nnon-intellectual nature of Sev's experience in this quote. Personally, I\ndon't think Wolfe has any time for this kind of mystical experience,\nseparated from the intellect. I read Pirate Freedom as a critique of it\n- the worthlessness of feeling all holy when it's separated from the\nconscious will to actually do good stuff.\n\n Sev, the avatar of *his* religion, of course ends up responsible for the\ndeath of most of the people of Urth, without really thinking about what\nhe's actually doing or having clear sense of why.\n\n When you first read New Sun, and see the strange parallels between the\nlife of Christ and Sev's life, it's natural to wonder if it isn't all a\nlittle blasphemous, coming from a Christian writer.\n\n I think the answer is that Sev's career is indeed a kind of blasphemy.\nHe says to Aphata that he is worried that the Hieros are like the\nmagicians, promising wonders & delivering evil.\n\n I think Sev for them serves much the same purpose as the mutilated cock\nhe & little Sev find, before they encounter the magicians. The cock is a\npiece of apotropaic magic to ward off the coming of the New Sun. I think\nthe Hieros have moulded Sev as a tool to ward off the coming of Christ,\nin some sense.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C22AC78.7060207@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T00:53:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wounds (was: Re: Corundum of the Claw)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:\nThere has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a \"Christian figure\"\nor a \"Christ figure\". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us Severian\nwas marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the book. Now\nwe are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the desert\ngarden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus and not\njust Christianity in general. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the \northodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries \nwhich have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations.\n\nFirst there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book \nin front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being \ndescribed as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like, \nrather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear); \nthis injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the \nthrone-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin \nkills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens \nthe avern-wound.\n\nThen there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks \ninto the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book. It's actually described as \na kind of 'sweating of blood' (there are no tears in the skin or later \nscars), though clearly in one specific area ie. the forehead, thus \ncombining suggestions of the crown of thorns with the Garden of \nGethsemane episode.\n\nThe lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires \nin battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to \nrelate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his \nnovel King Jesus (Graves proposes that the accession ritual for the \nKings of Judea included a ritual combat recapitulating Jacob's \ncontention with an angel, during which he was lamed; the whole idea of \nthis ritual is, as far as I know, Graves's own invention, and is not \nsupported by biblical scholarship, but it seems to be echoed in \nSeverian's thigh-wound).\n\nThere's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's \nweapon. It's clear that before this happened he was a good-looking young \nman, yet after this injury his face is for quite some time a horror to \nlook upon; one might say 'there is no form or comeliness in him', as in \nthe Isiac prophecy. Perhaps this one is a bit of a stretch! But I'm hard \npressed to imagine why else so much space is give to this injury and its \nafter-effects.\n\nI can't remember any hand or foot injuries, nor any scarring from a \nwhipping (though given Severian's background, it would not be surprising \nif he had a few such scars); but that's perhaps as well. The whole \nsubject is spooky enough already.\n\nregards\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<77ca8e5eb5cdcf63cce08678494dcaa5.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T05:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wounds (was: Re: Corundum of the Claw)", "in_reply_to": "<4C22AC78.7060207@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a \"Christian\nfigure\"\nor a \"Christ figure\". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us\nSeverian\nwas marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the\nbook. Now\nwe are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the\ndesert\ngarden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus\nand not\njust Christianity in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the\northodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries\nwhich have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations.\n\nFirst there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book\nin front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being\ndescribed as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like,\nrather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear);\nthis injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the\nthrone-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin\nkills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens\nthe avern-wound.\n\nThen there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks\ninto the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book.\n\nThe lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires\nin battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to\nrelate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his\nnovel King Jesus (...\n\nThere's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's\nweapon. ... .... The whole\nsubject is spooky enough already.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good post. I can chew on that for a while." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5b4a6d93a9d93ce2bbe5295076a35020.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T05:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wounds (was: Re: Corundum of the Claw)", "in_reply_to": "<77ca8e5eb5cdcf63cce08678494dcaa5.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Saints bearing stigmata are commonplace.\n\nSome object that Severian is no saint: he is as saintly as many a saint.\n\nLike, for instance, St Olaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_II_of_Norway\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a \"Christian\nfigure\"\nor a \"Christ figure\". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us\nSeverian\nwas marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the\nbook. Now\nwe are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the\ndesert\ngarden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus\nand not\njust Christianity in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the\northodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries\nwhich have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations.\n\nFirst there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book\nin front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being\ndescribed as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like,\nrather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear);\nthis injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the\nthrone-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin\nkills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens\nthe avern-wound.\n\nThen there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks\ninto the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book.\n\nThe lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires\nin battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to\nrelate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his\nnovel King Jesus (...\n\nThere's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's\nweapon. ... .... The whole\nsubject is spooky enough already.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good post. I can chew on that for a while.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f17948b65af81ab23d880d51cbcb308.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T05:28:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) King Olaf the Holy", "in_reply_to": "<77ca8e5eb5cdcf63cce08678494dcaa5.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just in case anyone doubts lupine relevance.\n\n___\nOlaf was the subject of several biographies, both hagiographies and sagas,\nin the Middle Ages, and many of the historical facts concerning his reign\nare disputed. The best known description is the one in Snorri Sturluson's\nHeimskringla, from c. 1230. That saga cannot be taken as an accurate\nsource for Olaf's life, but most of the following description is based on\nthe narrative there (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_II_of_Norway).\n---\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a \"Christian\nfigure\"\nor a \"Christ figure\". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us\nSeverian\nwas marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the\nbook. Now\nwe are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is the\ndesert\ngarden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to Jesus\nand not\njust Christianity in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the\northodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries\nwhich have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations.\n\nFirst there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book\nin front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being\ndescribed as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like,\nrather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman spear);\nthis injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the\nthrone-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin\nkills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens\nthe avern-wound.\n\nThen there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks\ninto the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book.\n\nThe lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires\nin battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to\nrelate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his\nnovel King Jesus (...\n\nThere's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's\nweapon. ... .... The whole\nsubject is spooky enough already.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good post. I can chew on that for a while.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52d6e82bdee12eba1a102e27badd8b01.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T05:32:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) King Olaf the Holy", "in_reply_to": "<1f17948b65af81ab23d880d51cbcb308.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "___\nSo high did Olaf's legal arrangements for the Church of Norway come to\nstand in the eyes of the Norwegian people and clergy, that when Pope\nGregory VII attempted to make clerical celibacy binding on the priests of\nWestern Europe in 1074-5, the Norwegians largely ignored this, since there\nwas no mention of clerical celibacy in Olaf's legal code for their Church.\n---\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just in case anyone doubts lupine relevance.\n\n___\nOlaf was the subject of several biographies, both hagiographies and sagas,\nin the Middle Ages, and many of the historical facts concerning his reign\nare disputed. The best known description is the one in Snorri Sturluson's\nHeimskringla, from c. 1230. That saga cannot be taken as an accurate\nsource for Olaf's life, but most of the following description is based on\nthe narrative there (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_II_of_Norway).\n---\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, June 23, 2010 8:53 pm, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 23/06/10 12:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There has been some debate in the past whether Severian is a\n\"Christian\nfigure\"\nor a \"Christ figure\". A recent article in Ultan's Library reminds us\nSeverian\nwas marked by stigmata on the forehead after viewing Tzadkiel in the\nbook. Now\nwe are reminded that Severian was also pierced by a thorn. There is\nthe\ndesert\ngarden and some other stuff that would seem to relate directly to\nJesus\nand not\njust Christianity in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the end of BOTNS / UOTNS Sev has acquired at least two of the\northodox Wounds of Christ and also a couple more long-term injuries\nwhich have Christian or semi-Christian mythic associations.\n\nFirst there is the chest injury from an avern-leaf (I haven't the book\nin front of me at the moment but I think I remember this wound being\ndescribed as 'the size and shape of a willow leaf' or something like,\nrather like the wound that would be made by the blade of a Roman\nspear);\nthis injury is later reopened and presumably made more obvious in the\nthrone-room scene at the end of Citadel where the resurrected assassin\nkills Valeria and injures Severian. Sev tells us that the knife reopens\nthe avern-wound.\n\nThen there is the 'crown of thorns' stigma which appears when he looks\ninto the face of Tzadkiel in the Mirror-book.\n\nThe lameness, the thigh injury from an energy weapon which Sev acquires\nin battle and which is later first healed and then reopened, seems to\nrelate to the Judean kingship ritual Robert Graves postulates in his\nnovel King Jesus (...\n\nThere's also much emphasis on Severian's facial scarring from Agia's\nweapon. ... .... The whole\nsubject is spooky enough already.\n\nregards\n\nJD\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good post. I can chew on that for a while.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2349FD.9040105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-24T12:05:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to \nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Son of Witz \n> wrote:\n\n\n after the Crystal is broken, Severian understands it's ( now missing )\n light as \"the only light we had.\" He finds the shards, and gives\n them to\n the see, literally burying the myth. After the myth is disposed\n of, he\n finds the real Claw, the thorn, and he waxes philosophical:\n\n \"Whenever I looked at it, it seemed to erase thought. Not as wine and\n certain drugs do, by rendering the mind unfit for it, but by\n replacing it\n with a higher state for which I know no name. Again and again I felt\n myself enter this state, rising always higher until I feared I should\n never return to the mode of consciousness I call normality; and\n again and\n again I tore myself from it. Each time I emerged, I felt I had\n gained some\n inexpressible insight into immense realities. At last, after a\n long series\n of these bold advances and fearful retreats, I came to understand\n that I\n should never reach any real knowledge of the tiny thing I held,\n and with\n that thought (for it was a thought) came a third state, one of happy\n obedience to I knew not what, an obedience without reflection because\n there was no longer anything to reflect upon, and without the least\n tincture of rebellion.\"\n\n There, at the end you have it. He has a happy obedience without\n the least\n tincture of rebellion. He has been put through his tests, and now\n he is\n taking up the mantle.\n\nThe most interesting question for me is whether this unquestioning \nacceptance is supposed to be a *good* thing.\n \n The Claw is only special because it has been soaked in Sev's blood, \nwhile he was on the Ship (or at least that's what \ngiant-moth-woman-Morlock-bureaucrat Apheta tells him in UOTNS). The \nreligion of the New Sun only exists because of Sev's actions in \"the \npast\". When he prays at the altar of the Pelerines in the lazarette, \nhe finds that he is praying to himself.\n \nIf you can import a notion from Long Sun/Short Sun, Sev's strivings \nlead only back to himself, not outside, to the \"Outsider\".\n \nAnd contrast Silk and SilkHorn's enlightenment and experience of the \npresence of God, with the thoughtless, formless, fundamentally \nnon-intellectual nature of Sev's experience in this quote. Personally, \nI don't think Wolfe has any time for this kind of mystical experience, \nseparated from the intellect. I read Pirate Freedom as a critique of \nit - the worthlessness of feeling all holy when it's separated from \nthe conscious will to actually do good stuff. \n \nSev, the avatar of *his* religion, of course ends up responsible for \nthe death of most of the people of Urth, without really thinking \nabout what he's actually doing or having clear sense of why. \n \nWhen you first read New Sun, and see the strange parallels between the \nlife of Christ and Sev's life, it's natural to wonder if it isn't all \na little blasphemous, coming from a Christian writer.\n \nI think the answer is that Sev's career is indeed a kind of blasphemy. \nHe says to Aphata that he is worried that the Hieros are like the \nmagicians, promising wonders & delivering evil.\n \nI think Sev for them serves much the same purpose as the mutilated \ncock he & little Sev find, before they encounter the magicians. The \ncock is a piece of apotropaic magic to ward off the coming of the New \nSun. I think the Hieros have moulded Sev as a tool to ward off the \ncoming of Christ, in some sense.\n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T14:04:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4C2349FD.9040105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:35 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThere's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put\nthe world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence.\n\nYes. By flooding. My memory of Genesis is pretty hazy, but isn't there a\nbit in it where God says he won't do that again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyway, I read BOTNS/UOTNS as containing zero evidence that Sev is acting\nfor God, and only comprehensible as a tragedy - but appreciate that I'm in a\nminority with that!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T14:53:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I sort of can't believe we're having this discussion again, so I will\nsimply restate my point.\n\n1) Gene Wolfe tells us he's an orthodox Catholic, and we have no\nreason to disbelieve him.\n\n2) Severian is pretty clearly not literally the Jesus guy orthodox\nCatholics say they believe in. He is a killer, likely a rapist,\ninterested in worldy power, et cetera.\n\n3) Severian is also pretty clearly surrounded by Christlike imagery.\nSome of this seems almost parodic, some of it seems almost reverent.\n\nThere are many hypotheses consistent with these facts. The hypotheses\nthat aren't consistent are\n\na) Severian is a literal stand-in for Jesus Christ as understood by the author,\n\nb) The author just screwed up and put in a lot of Jesus stuff for no reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T15:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a hypothesis I have:\n\n(x) Wolfe found gnostic, kabbalistic and other (quasi)heretical\nnotions interesting and plundered them for story material, eventually\ncoming up with a story about a young man's journey from outsider to\nking to flawed savior of the world (which is itself a common enough\nstoryline).\n\nThis theory has the benefit of explaining the major themes and plot\npoints of the BOTNS, while explaining away neatly any conflict between\nthe theological grounding of Briah and that of the author,\nspatiotemporally situated so near to us as he is.\n\nyvt,\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:53 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nI sort of can't believe we're having this discussion again, so I will\nsimply restate my point.\n\n1) ?Gene Wolfe tells us he's an orthodox Catholic, and we have no\nreason to disbelieve him.\n\n2) ?Severian is pretty clearly not literally the Jesus guy orthodox\nCatholics say they believe in. ?He is a killer, likely a rapist,\ninterested in worldy power, et cetera.\n\n3) ?Severian is also pretty clearly surrounded by Christlike imagery.\nSome of this seems almost parodic, some of it seems almost reverent.\n\nThere are many hypotheses consistent with these facts. ?The hypotheses\nthat aren't consistent are\n\na) ?Severian is a literal stand-in for Jesus Christ as understood by the author,\n\nb) ?The author just screwed up and put in a lot of Jesus stuff for no reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6924F96B-7876-4037-A74F-7A9721E951C8@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T17:20:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4C2349FD.9040105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThere's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to put the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and appropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a shame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing, that he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the birth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to fundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death sentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that Severian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for themselves.\nFuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn for it's own good, periodically. \n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T18:54:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<6924F96B-7876-4037-A74F-7A9721E951C8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as\nsome sort of anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:\nOn Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme in\nthis book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must not\nforget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for\nthemselves.\nFuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as a\njust tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling\nto their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T18:58:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nAnd Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this is to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a death\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for\nthemselves.\nFuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling\nto their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult, necessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:03:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he\nis far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:58 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nThat's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think\nit's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad\nthing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We\nmust\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this\nis to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for\nthemselves.\nFuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to\nburn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act\nas\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new\nlife.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and\ncling\nto their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult,\nnecessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:05:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think he's the literal anti-christ either. He's maybe a take\non what a heretical version of Christ would've been like in a\nscience-fiction world?\n\nOf course, I think that the New Sun coming was ultimately a good\nthing...I'm just not sure why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nWell, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he\nis far from the literal anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:58 AM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". ?Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim as\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come\nto\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think\nit's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad\nthing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down\ntheme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We\nmust\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this\nis to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a\ndeath\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years\nfor\nthemselves.\nFuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to\nburn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act\nas\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new\nlife.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and\ncling\nto their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult,\nnecessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6B3CFAD0-9C59-4B55-A731-7D7E69E71A7B@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:21:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never used the name Jesus. Severian is not Jesus.\nI know it's hard or 'wrong' for catholics to understand the historical jesus as an instance of The Logos in history, but that's how I see it. All I've been saying in regards to Severian's 'divinity' has to do with this level of abstraction. I see him as A Christ for Urth, and, NOT Jesus of Earth. I'm also not trying to work ts into the Trinity. I don't see Severian as sharing some tripartite nature with The Father. I liken it to PKD's notion of VALIS as the Logos, as the healing ray from The Outsider into the Black Iron Prison; something that is sent in from outside time to heal us. I use Logos based on my understanding of the original greek notion of Ratio. That which reconciles God and Man. I see Jesus as one story about this reconciliation, and Severian's as another. I'm not, have never, and wouldn't claim they are the same story.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:58 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nThat's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him as\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think it's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad thing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this is to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for\nthemselves.\nFuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to burn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act as\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling\nto their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23B082.9000208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:22:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/24/2010 1:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nThat's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has said that he's not inclined to express his faith in everything \nhe's writes. He used OS Card as a counter-analogy. Figuratively, \nSeverian is Christ....the gnostic Christ. Not the orthodox or Catholic \nChrist.\n\nU+16B9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<408BD2A3-9F52-4E20-A6A2-ED2946F10F6C@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:24:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4C23B082.9000208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:22 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 6/24/2010 1:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has said that he's not inclined to express his faith in everything he's writes. He used OS Card as a counter-analogy. Figuratively, Severian is Christ....the gnostic Christ. Not the orthodox or Catholic Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly" } ] }, { "message_id": "<810cd560ccb445062f14633ad608b74a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword.\n\nHe comes to judge the World, or that is what is said.\n\nIt is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come to\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think\nit's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad\nthing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down theme\nin\nthis book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We must\nnot\nforget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this\nis to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a death\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years for\nthemselves.\nFuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to\nburn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act\nas a\njust tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new\nlife.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and\ncling\nto their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult,\nnecessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53cc0cfc5df208838991c574ade603ab.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:48:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the horse's mouth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim as\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come\nto\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think\nit's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad\nthing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down\ntheme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We\nmust\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this\nis to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a\ndeath\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years\nfor\nthemselves.\nFuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to\nburn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act\nas\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new\nlife.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and\ncling\nto their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult,\nnecessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:49:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<53cc0cfc5df208838991c574ade603ab.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, me too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:48 PM, wrote:\nSeverian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the horse's mouth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". ?Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim as\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come\nto\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think\nit's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad\nthing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down\ntheme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We\nmust\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. ?To miss this\nis to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. ?To view this as a\ndeath\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years\nfor\nthemselves.\nFuck that. ?This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to\nburn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act\nas\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new\nlife.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and\ncling\nto their attachments like children. ?Severian did a difficult,\nnecessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T19:49:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<53cc0cfc5df208838991c574ade603ab.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that horse is a wolf, then I think the case is closed! :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:48 PM, wrote:\nSeverian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the horse's mouth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's is an awfully thin reed for \"Severian is supposed to literally\nbe Jesus\" rather than \"Severian is supposed to parrallel Jesus in\nimportant ways\". Perhaps the distinction is irrelevant for a\nnon-believer, but the author is not a non-believer.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim as\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 5:05 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There's a bit in John that says (I paraphrase): Jesus does not come\nto\nput the world on trial or to condemn it, but to rescue it.\n\nSeverian comes to carry out a death sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I definitely feel that \"the Sev is not divine\" arguments are fine and\nappropriate, and I don't care to try to convince anyone, but I think\nit's a\nshame that people get hung up on this idea that Severian did a bad\nthing,\nthat he \"carried out a death sentance\".\nThis view is not, er, holistic to the themes. The most boiled down\ntheme\nin this book, holographically repeated, is Death and Resurrection. We\nmust\nnot forget that.\n\nSeverian brought renewed life to the planet. the death of Urth was the\nbirth of Ushas, and the resurection of the dying planet. To miss this\nis to\nfundamentally misunderstand the books, I think. To view this as a\ndeath\nsentence, one is basically taking the short sighted selfish side that\nSeverian's foes had. They would deny the future for a few more years\nfor\nthemselves.\nFuck that. This is a cycle that we see in nature. The forest has to\nburn\nfor it's own good, periodically.\n\nI'm sorry, just about any reading goes, but to just see Severian's act\nas\na just tradgedy seems to completely miss the point.\n\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new\nlife.\nNo one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and\ncling\nto their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult,\nnecessary,\nand beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-24T20:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha!\nAllright, but all this Sev/Christ biz aside, you've got to appreciate how badass this scene is. At the moment he is fully his own man, he has to dispose of the fragments of this Myth and take up the Reality that the Myth has indicated. It's one of the most profound moments for the Conciliator, and as usual, Severian is clueless of it's significance. Wolfe has given us such a tasty symbol in this crystalized myth. \n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nIf that horse is a wolf, then I think the case is closed! :)\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:48 PM, wrote:\nSeverian is a member of the mystical Body of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the horse's mouth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23F82C.90709@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T00:28:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wounds", "in_reply_to": "<77ca8e5eb5cdcf63cce08678494dcaa5.squirrel@email.fatcow.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 24/06/10 06:09, Son of Witz wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good post. I can chew on that for a while.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tx.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23F916.6030206@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T00:32:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<6924F96B-7876-4037-A74F-7A9721E951C8@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 24/06/10 18:20, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:\nIt had to be a torturer to deliver the death stroke that brought new life. No one else would obey. Everyone else prefers to save themselves and cling to their attachments like children. Severian did a difficult, necessary, and beautiful thing.\n\n~witz\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to me that little tag, 'torturers obey', is the key to the entire BOTNS \n'mythos'.\n\nthere are other 'mythic' structures in which obedience is perceived as \nthe prime virtue. It's even an oath for some.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23FC5C.4030707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-25T00:46:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<810cd560ccb445062f14633ad608b74a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nChrist comes not to bring peace, but a sword.\n\nHe comes to judge the World, or that is what is said.\n\nIt is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that, I'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T01:33:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4C23FC5C.4030707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless it was all made up. Or none of it was.\n\nIn other words, there isn't really a lot of hard evidence to go by." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:46 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword.\n\nHe comes to judge the World, or that is what is said.\n\nIt is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told that\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of him\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T02:02:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4C23FC5C.4030707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword.\n\nHe comes to judge the World, or that is what is said.\n\nIt is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6e062289a324fbd0f4738c2a2b6e9d63.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T02:02:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup.\n\nWe got these stories.\n\nThat's all we got.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless it was all made up. Or none of it was.\n\nIn other words, there isn't really a lot of hard evidence to go by.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:46 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword.\n\nHe comes to judge the World, or that is what is said.\n\nIt is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C240EAA.9030005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-25T02:04:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just quoted the Book of John to say the precise opposite. That's all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSo?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, but that's at the end. And all that stuff was made up later.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Christ comes not to bring peace, but a sword.\n\nHe comes to judge the World, or that is what is said.\n\nIt is further said that most will be unhappy with his judgements.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And Wolfe is on record as saying that the only thing we're ever told\nthat\nJesus the Carpenter's son made was a Whip.\n\nWitz and I have always been in agreeance on this, and because of that,\nI'm\nmore likely to find textual support for the idea than for the idea of\nhim\nas\nsome sort of anti-christ.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<73EC3652-4DF5-4392-8995-60C525DF9C85@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T19:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nWell, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But he is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being christ-like?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5e6ca0ff306c23277990cec5dbf22b96.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T19:22:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<73EC3652-4DF5-4392-8995-60C525DF9C85@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being\nchrist-like?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T19:39:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<5e6ca0ff306c23277990cec5dbf22b96.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept.\nThe statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a\nmember of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, wrote:\nHe has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. “But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being\nchrist-like”\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T19:46:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. \"The mystical Body of Christ\" is another way of saying\n\"the Church\"--but not the human institution, or any particular human\ninstitution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls \"the blessed company\nof all faithful people\".\n\nI don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that Severian is\nintended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians (including me),\nhe makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets right are more or\nless by accident.\n\nOr Grace--but that's another sermon, innit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nAgain, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept.\nThe statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a\nmember of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being\nchrist-like?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6178fb48fbd007f7c2c4ec80156796dd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept.\nThe statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a\nmember of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus.\n“But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian\nbeing\nchrist-like”\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7fa77efa17f59163da248c1f938aa2e3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:31:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. \"The mystical Body of Christ\" is another way of saying\n\"the Church\"--but not the human institution, or any particular human\ninstitution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls \"the blessed\ncompany\nof all faithful people\".\n\nI don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that Severian\nis\nintended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians (including\nme),\nhe makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets right are more or\nless by accident.\n\nOr Grace--but that's another sermon, innit?\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept.\nThe statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a\nmember of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian\nbeing\nchrist-like?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5E366B2E-6C07-4267-9310-124479E61528@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:47:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF? \nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:\nI don't think so. \"The mystical Body of Christ\" is another way of saying \"the Church\"--but not the human institution, or any particular human institution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls \"the blessed company of all faithful people\".\n\nI don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that Severian is intended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians (including me), he makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets right are more or less by accident.\n\nOr Grace--but that's another sermon, innit?\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nAgain, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept.\nThe statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a\nmember of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus. But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian being\nchrist-like?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:49:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<5E366B2E-6C07-4267-9310-124479E61528@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:\n\nYeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem \"The Pearl\" would\nbe in order.\n\nOr perhaps not." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2dc48adc67eeefe91c3936ca1b84f844.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:52:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<5E366B2E-6C07-4267-9310-124479E61528@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Life's that way.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P\n\n\n\nOn Jun 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so. \"The mystical Body of Christ\" is another way of\nsaying \"the Church\"--but not the human institution, or any particular\nhuman institution. It's what the Book of Common Prayer calls \"the\nblessed company of all faithful people\".\n\nI don't see any reason to disbelieve Wolfe when he tells us that\nSeverian is intended to be Christian, not Christ. Like most Christians\n(including me), he makes disastrous mistakes, and the few things he gets\nright are more or less by accident.\n\nOr Grace--but that's another sermon, innit?\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, John Watkins\n wrote:\nAgain, me too. The mystic body of Christ is a pretty broad concept.\nThe statement is perhaps identical to the statement that Severian is a\nmember of the Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm\n\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He has denied him being Christ.\n\nHe has stated that he is a member of the mystical Body.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Jun 24, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, I'm certainly not making the case that he is literally Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But\nhe is far from the literal anti-christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gene outwardly denied Severian\nbeing\nchrist-like?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2d9762ce42c59b3726d3bcfdd2fa1dce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reading of the Victorian magazine \"privately published for gentlemen\"\nof the same name, definitely not.\n\nThough there are some interesting parts involving whips.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem \"The Pearl\" would\nbe in order.\n\nOr perhaps not.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B478060-42D9-44AE-8AF3-5E18DD1FB21D@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-25T20:59:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<2d9762ce42c59b3726d3bcfdd2fa1dce.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Snap!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe reading of the Victorian magazine \"privately published for gentlemen\"\nof the same name, definitely not.\n\nThough there are some interesting parts involving whips.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem \"The Pearl\" would\nbe in order.\n\nOr perhaps not.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2637ED.4060603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-26T17:25:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem \"The Pearl\" would\nbe in order.\n\nOr perhaps not.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C263853.2040003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-26T17:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4B478060-42D9-44AE-8AF3-5E18DD1FB21D@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt there's an article in it about how the Carpenter never made \nanything BUT a whip." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:\nSnap!\n\n\n\nOn Jun 25, 2010, at 1:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The reading of the Victorian magazine \"privately published for gentlemen\"\nof the same name, definitely not.\n\nThough there are some interesting parts involving whips.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem \"The Pearl\" would\nbe in order.\n\nOr perhaps not.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-26T17:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Corundum of the Claw", "in_reply_to": "<4C263853.2040003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nah, it's mostly little girls and schoolmistresses and shit.\n\nStimulating reading for a twelve year old, let me tell you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No doubt there's an article in it about how the Carpenter never made\nanything BUT a whip.\n\nSonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Snap!\n\n\n\nOn Jun 25, 2010, at 1:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The reading of the Victorian magazine \"privately published for\ngentlemen\"\nof the same name, definitely not.\n\nThough there are some interesting parts involving whips.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Yeah yeah yeah guys.\nI wasn't even trying to go there. WTF?\nyou fuckers jacked my topic.\nIt's called Corundum of the Claw\nNot Conundrum of the Christ\n:P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "At this point perhaps a reading of the medieval poem \"The Pearl\" would\nbe in order.\n\nOr perhaps not.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }