{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5640", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5640, "subject": "Someday they'll want us.", "messages": 12, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-06-24T11:12:34+00:00", "last": "2010-06-26T22:23:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-24T11:12:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from prison. The subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \"us\" of the example?\n\nI have sometimes heard the phrase used where \"us\" means the singular \"me\", but I do not think it fits the narrator's education and speech patterns.\n\nThe narrator's known family at this time consists of only Mr. Million, and David, who lives in another city. Are we to infer that he has already created a 'Number 6' clone?\n\nA little earlier comes the sentence \"I have written to disclose myself to myself, and I am writing now because I will, I know, sometime read what I am now qwriting and wonder\". This can be read in two ways; one in which \"myself\" and \"I\" may refer to a clone, and another which suggests that in writing the narrator has found a better means of self-examination.\n\nAnyway, I was wondering what people think.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23545B.8010305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T12:49:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/24/2010 06:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of \nCerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from \nprison. The subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \n\"us\" of the example?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you read the novella standalone, as it appears in _Best Of_, or as \npart of the collection of three novellas published as _Fifth Head_?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2357DB.60803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T13:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/24/2010 6:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of\nCerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from prison.\nThe subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \"us\" of the\nexample?\n\nI have sometimes heard the phrase used where \"us\" means the singular\n\"me\", but I do not think it fits the narrator's education and speech\npatterns.\n\nThe narrator's known family at this time consists of only Mr. Million,\nand David, who lives in another city. Are we to infer that he has\nalready created a 'Number 6' clone?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " He may mean all the clones to come, as he is inextricably on the same \ntrack as Maitre and his predecessors. He's also probably lying to \nhimself, but at the same time leaving a written record for his posterity \nto read after they have done away with his generation or otherwise \nfailed to learn from his example in his lifetime.\n\nI wonder if this also an ironic commentary on the youth counter-culture \nof the time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-24T13:29:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "<4C23545B.8010305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Adam Thornton \n On 06/24/2010 06:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: \n \"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from prison. The subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \"us\" of the example?\n\n Did you read the novella standalone, as it appears in _Best Of_, or as part of the collection of three novellas published as _Fifth Head_?\nDoes it matter?\n\nI read it as part of the collection, but I don't see what difference it could make. All the action in the other two linked novellas (as well as all the other action in _Fifth Head_ ) takes place before this time.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T14:08:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of\nCerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from prison.\nThe subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \"us\" of the\nexample?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The subject is humanity. 'Us' is the family - for want of a better\nword - of which he is a part. Someday humanity will want us.\n\nThey haven't been experimenting on themselves for generations for the\nfun of it. Maitre wants them to be at the very least rulers of the\nplanet.\n\nThe significance of this as a last line is that it confirms what we've\nalready begun to suspect - that Number 5, the narrator we've followed\nall this time, no longer exists. He's become Maitre." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we to infer that he has\nalready created a 'Number 6' clone?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. That's 'the child'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23680C.7070107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T14:13:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of \nCerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from \nprison. The subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \n\"us\" of the example? I have sometimes heard the phrase used where \"us\" \nmeans the singular \"me\", but I do not think it fits the narrator's \neducation and speech patterns. The narrator's known family at this \ntime consists of only Mr. Million, and David, who lives in another \ncity. Are we to infer that he has already created a 'Number 6' clone?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am pretty certain that \"the child\" with Phaedra is Number 6. Phaedra \n*works* at Cave Canem and we know the jobs available there. \"Us\" is Mr. \nMillion and all the clones before and after Number 5. As \"Dr. Marsch\" \nhas explained, \"us\" and \"me\" are equivalent in their case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A little earlier comes the sentence \"I have written to disclose myself \nto myself, and I am writing now because I will, I know, sometime read \nwhat I am now qwriting and wonder\". This can be read in two ways; one \nin which \"myself\" and \"I\" may refer to a clone, and another which \nsuggests that in writing the narrator has found a better means of \nself-examination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is the former. He knows that he will pass on this position to \nanother at one point. He must know on some analytical level that Number \n6 will murder him one day." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T14:39:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "<4C23680C.7070107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \"us\" of the\nexample?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read the ending very differently. I think Phaedria has long moved on and\nthat is recognized by #5. \n \nMy understanding is that Mr. Million and his successors are exceedingly \nnarcisisstic, which is why they continue to clone themselves. Their\nthinking is that the goal of planetary or even inter-planetary rule could, \nof course, be accomplished by such a superior person if only they had more \nthan one lifetime to pursue the goal. Frustration is expressed over the fact\nthat after several lifetimes they have not progressed beyond being an \naristocratic pimp on St. Croix. So the \"us\" is the sucession of clones and the \n\"they\" are the fellow humans who refuse to acknowledge and submit to his \nsuperiority.\n \nGene Wolfe nicely expresses the underlying problem with a dream sequence of\na ship which Matre refuses to untie from the dock until he can learn what is\nkeeping it from sailing.(i.e. with cloning there is no evolution, no progress).\n \nI'm glad this ending was brought to attention. 5HoC is the novella which first\ndrew me to Gene Wolfe's writing and I consider the final denouement to be among\nthe two most chilling, sad and lonely endings in SF.\n \n(the other being Heinlein's All You Zombies in which we learn *Spoiler* \nthe main character, who longs for a lost lover and family, has managed, through \ntime travel and gender surgery, to be his/her own lost lover as well as his own\nmother, father and child in a closed loop. The final line, \"You aren’t really there\nat all. There isn’t anybody but me here alone in the dark.\nI miss you dreadfully.\" I must suspect this 1959 story was an influence on Wolfe) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C23809C.9080804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-24T15:58:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My understanding is that Mr. Million and his successors are exceedingly\nnarcisisstic, which is why they continue to clone themselves. Their\nthinking is that the goal of planetary or even inter-planetary rule could,\nof course, be accomplished by such a superior person if only they had more\nthan one lifetime to pursue the goal. Frustration is expressed over the fact\nthat after several lifetimes they have not progressed beyond being an\naristocratic pimp on St. Croix. So the \"us\" is the sucession of clones and the\n\"they\" are the fellow humans who refuse to acknowledge and submit to his\nsuperiority.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the only manipulator who actually counts is Mr. Million. All the \nother clones are his test subjects. Note that Auntie Jeanine died rather \nprecipitously after she began acting as though she owned the house.\n\nU+16B9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<85B81403ED2C47A4AF3CAC40B164BF90@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-24T23:42:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of\nCerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from prison.\nThe subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who are the \"us\" of the\nexample?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The subject is humanity. 'Us' is the family - for want of a better\nword - of which he is a part. Someday humanity will want us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, I think this is correct. I had thought that the child was \nPhaedria's by way of her failed marriage, which allowed another reading. \nBut of course the failure of the 'family' had become their driving obsession \nand that must be what is meant.\n\nMy initial reading was more optimistic; I thought perhaps the narrator had \nbroken the cycle. But it does not seem tenable.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C24085D.4070407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-25T01:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/24/2010 08:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n *From:* Adam Thornton \n On 06/24/2010 06:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"Someday they'll want us\" is the last line of _The Fifth Head of\n Cerberus_, written three years after the narrator's release from\n prison. The subject, clearly, is Phaedria and her child. Who\n are the \"us\" of the example?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Did you read the novella standalone, as it appears in _Best Of_,\n or as part of the collection of three novellas published as _Fifth\n Head_?\n\nDoes it matter?\nI read it as part of the collection, but I don't see what difference \nit could make. All the action in the other two linked novellas (as \nwell as all the other action in _Fifth Head_ ) takes place before this \ntime." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you've read the other parts, then you know that cloning isn't the \nonly way to get confusion between the plural and singular.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-26T20:34:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "<4C23809C.9080804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:58 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My understanding is that Mr. Million and his successors are exceedingly\nnarcisisstic, which is why they continue to clone themselves. Their\nthinking is that the goal of planetary or even inter-planetary rule could,\nof course, be accomplished by such a superior person if only they had more\nthan one lifetime to pursue the goal. Frustration is expressed over the\nfact\nthat after several lifetimes they have not progressed beyond being an\naristocratic pimp on St. Croix. So the \"us\" is the sucession of clones and\nthe\n\"they\" are the fellow humans who refuse to acknowledge and submit to his\nsuperiority." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the only manipulator who actually counts is Mr. Million. All the\nother clones are his test subjects. Note that Auntie Jeanine died rather\nprecipitously after she began acting as though she owned the house.\n\nU+16B9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did she? I haven't read it recently, but she's described as digging up\nthe house for a while and searching for Maitre's hidden fortune, and\nonly when she finally dies does Mr. Million try (and fail) to run the\nbrothel. She had enough time to damage it quite a bit, which isn't\nvery consistent with Mr. Million offing her quickly, and given his own\npredictable failure, he wouldn't want to off her." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C267DC4.5010405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-26T22:23:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Someday they'll want us.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My understanding is that Mr. Million and his successors are exceedingly\nnarcisisstic, which is why they continue to clone themselves. Their\nthinking is that the goal of planetary or even inter-planetary rule could,\nof course, be accomplished by such a superior person if only they had more\nthan one lifetime to pursue the goal. Frustration is expressed over the\nfact\nthat after several lifetimes they have not progressed beyond being an\naristocratic pimp on St. Croix. So the \"us\" is the sucession of clones and\nthe\n\"they\" are the fellow humans who refuse to acknowledge and submit to his\nsuperiority\nI think the only manipulator who actually counts is Mr. Million. All the\nother clones are his test subjects. Note that Auntie Jeanine died rather\nprecipitously after she began acting as though she owned the house." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did she? I haven't read it recently, but she's described as digging up\nthe house for a while and searching for Maitre's hidden fortune, and\nonly when she finally dies does Mr. Million try (and fail) to run the\nbrothel. She had enough time to damage it quite a bit, which isn't\nvery consistent with Mr. Million offing her quickly, and given his own\npredictable failure, he wouldn't want to off her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I say \"acting as though she owned the house\" I mean when she \nrelinquished her duties running the family business to search for the \nfabled hoard. We know this only occurred, coincidentally, \"in her last \ndays\". And Jeanine lived less than three years after Matre's murder \nalthough she was apparently healthy enough prior to that. And she could \nnot have been more than in her early 40s at the most. Number Five does \nnot tell us, I believe, if he knows, how long \"her last days\" were. Nor \ndoes he say how much damage she did. It was probably trivial since there \nis no discussion of extensive renovation. N5 only says the house was \"in \na confused state\". After she ceased to be a benefit from stand-point of \nthe experiment she passed away. As I said, very convenient. But, \nprobably, one of the principle reasons she was kept around was as a \nlegal backstop in the case a clone did something that made him incapable \nof direct inheritance (this situation had arisen before with Maitre). So \nshe would not have lasted long anyway once N5's release became imminent.\n\nIt would have not been a trivial act to eliminate her with Number Five \nin prison for the foreseeable future. It had to have been a drastic act. \nAs a robot, it would not be a physically simple thing in any case. But \nmore importantly, he could not himself continue to run by himself. After \nher death, he had to lay off all the household and shut down any attempt \nat business because, as a robot, he couldn't enforce his will.\n\nU+16B9" } ] } ] }