{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5642", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5642, "subject": "Appearances of Inire", "messages": 564, "voices": 24, "first": "2010-06-28T18:28:32+00:00", "last": "2010-07-20T23:14:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T18:28:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: Ah yes, I always assumed Ossipago was Father Inire (same with the picture cleaner, and Palaemon)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWoo hoo! Well, Borski has also considered Ossipago and Palaemon as versions of Father Inire. I'm not sure about them.\n \n \nBut I thought I was alone in considering the picture cleaner, Rudesind, to perhaps be Inire. I suppose I am the champion/clown prince in finding Father Inire in the most places actually. I haven't posted about that in a few years (under the name bsharp, for some reason that account won't work here any more. Was I banned? yikes!)\n \nMy starting point is the first mention of Father Inire where he is described as old, bent and twisted and monkey-like. Rudesind fits the bill in appearance and in his occupation since Father Inire seems to be involved in all museum-oriented things artisan, arts, architecture, contrivances etc.\n \nWe also learn that Inire has an attraction to young pretty girls. This helps bring the Boatman, Dorcas' husband, into the pool of candidates. He is old, bent, hangs out in the right place, and speaks in a folksy voice like Rudesind. Boats plus young girls plus folksy talk plus telling \"manatee\" stories suggests Maxellindis' \"uncle\" might be in the mix also.\n \nMonkey arms, a thing for young girls and interest in the arts makes Fechin another candidate. Especially since Rudesind's boyhood painting might be a self-portrait (there are paint brushes in the picture). This adds red hair to the mix and opens up all sorts of worm cans. (e.g. I think I know why Agia has auburn hair).\n \nThere are the likely possibilities of the cowled servitor of the autarch, the jungle guide and Isangoma. Plus I have to wonder about the odd monkey creatures which seem to peek in on Severian's progress from time to time. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3A73230B-61D0-461F-B223-68814BF7E670@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T18:43:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:28 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHe is old, bent, hangs out in the right place" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes!\n\nMy whole take on Inire, is that he is something of a puppetmaster. We get an in-depth story from Thecla about Inire's mirrors, and how he is a master of the corridors of time. We also get plenty allusion that Severian lives in parallel timelines, none more evident than as Apu Punchau.\n\nThe motivation, IMO, would be for Inire and perhaps Severian to be in collusion in trying to shape the Severian (that we follow in BotNS) to become the New Sun. If at first you don't succeed...\n\nAlso, if there are seven Severians or more floating around Urth and beyond, and Inire was the master who taught him (assumption) why couldn't there be a dozen or more Inire's coexisting? Why COULDN'T he be more than one character in disguise? I always felt Ossipago and Palaemon to be OBVIOUSLY in disguise, and both VERY critical in setting Severian's course.\n\nWhen I read the text with this in mind, all of the \"coincidences\" are suddenly justified and warranted, almost requisite. Also, when I read it this way, I feel like that \"bubble\" Severian is in, is very much intentional. It's sort of like Peter Weir's \"Truman Show\" with Jim Carrey, in a way. With Inire playing Ed Harriss's role.\n\nI remember Severian senses a shadow of himself at the end of the book, when he returns to the Atrium of Time. As though the Severian from the beginning was only moments away, perhaps overlapping since time behaves weird there.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92c575f2988ee19de16e2cce8902a5fb@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T19:13:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<3A73230B-61D0-461F-B223-68814BF7E670@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bent, long arms, red hair, monkey^Wape-like.\n\nWell, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian. Obviously, too, time travel is required to have him appear\n*before* _The Color of Magic_.\n\nOok." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T19:15:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<92c575f2988ee19de16e2cce8902a5fb@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:\n\nBent, long arms, red hair, monkey^Wape-like.\n\nWell, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. ?Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian. ?Obviously, too, time travel is required to have him appear\n*before* _The Color of Magic_.\n\nOok." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's, Ah say, that's _Oook_, sun." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C28F766.6030605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-28T19:26:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<92c575f2988ee19de16e2cce8902a5fb@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's one thing to suggest multiple Inires. He could probably handle \nthat. And if so, then one of them could be blind without them all being \nblind. And I suppose the multiple names would be so he could keep \nhimself straight.\n\nAlso, since Father Inire himself never appears, it follows that he must \nappear as something other than Father Inire.\n\nBut I agree with what I think is your skepticism: there is the principle \nof conservation of characters, but this is overapplication. At this \nrate, anyone (male) could be Inire after several hundred years, even \nSeverian if he works on his tan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton (IO) wrote:\nBent, long arms, red hair, monkey^Wape-like.\n\nWell, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian. Obviously, too, time travel is required to have him appear\n*before* _The Color of Magic_.\n\nOok.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6EEA45AB-8CB1-4B4F-AFCF-8D154A8D1741@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T19:33:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C28F766.6030605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 3:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt's one thing to suggest multiple Inires. He could probably handle that. And if so, then one of them could be blind without them all being blind. And I suppose the multiple names would be so he could keep himself straight.\n\nAlso, since Father Inire himself never appears, it follows that he must appear as something other than Father Inire.\n\nBut I agree with what I think is your skepticism: there is the principle of conservation of characters, but this is overapplication. At this rate, anyone (male) could be Inire after several hundred years, even Severian if he works on his tan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I think all of the coincidences or overly convenient happenings in BotNS are a product of design, not chance, or an easy way out for Wolfe. Would you agree?\n\nIf so, why not suspect two known time-travelers in this text, Severian and Inire (in no particular order). What is the endgame for them? To bring the New Sun, correct?\n\nNot sure why it is such a stretch to see Inire in disguise, helping the way. In fact, Rudesind giving different directions may have saved him from (I dunno) an armiger's ambush? Not drawing random conclusions, just saying there would be a \"reason\" for Inire to plant himself along Severian's journey, no?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T20:00:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<6EEA45AB-8CB1-4B4F-AFCF-8D154A8D1741@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, why not suspect two known time-travelers in this text, Severian and\nInire (in no particular order). What is the endgame for them? To bring the\nNew Sun, correct?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself? Or is he the station master?\n\nIIRC, there are four characters who may travel in time without artifice:\nSeverian, Juturna, the Green Man, and Tzadkerbell.\n\nThere are about five artifices that allow time travel: the Ship, Inire's\nmirrors, the various dimensional architectures, the portals in Yesod, and\nFB&O's saucer. Despite Inire's association with and mastery of most or all\nof these, he's not documented passing through them into other times that I\nrecall.\n\n(His Botanical Gardens technically reach into other times in other cycles \nbut there's no opportunity to touch back into Urthly history of future\nthere I can see.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C29054E.3030105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T20:25:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Monkey arms, a thing for young girls and interest in the arts makes \nFechin another candidate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We've a Fechin here that shows three girls dressing another one with \nflowers that's so real you expect the bees to come out of it.\"\n~ Shadow of the Torturer\n\nNicolai Ivanovich Fechin was an actual early 20th century painter. He's \nclassified as an Impressionist. But the color and detail of many of his \npaintings are nearly photorealistic, and the eye-popping color often \ngives the sense of three-dimensional depth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Especially since Rudesind's boyhood painting might be a self-portrait \n(there are paint brushes in the picture). This adds red hair to the \nmix and opens up all sorts of worm cans. (e.g. I think I know why Agia \nhas auburn hair)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a theory that red-hair in the Sun Cycle is an intentional \nassociation with Typhon in some way. Red-hair is signifier of being a \nwerewolf, and the red-haired sacrificial victims in the Osiris cult were \ncalled \"Typhonians\".\n\n~ J. u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004f01cb1700$8b115980$53ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-28T20:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C28F766.6030605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut I agree with what I think is your skepticism: there is the principle\nof conservation of characters, but this is overapplication. At this\nrate, anyone (male) could be Inire after several hundred years, even\nSeverian if he works on his tan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot (Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some, makes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman, Maxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle. And since\nSeverian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You Zombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T20:32:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<004f01cb1700$8b115980$53ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAnd since\nSeverian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You Zombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...and some day they'll want us." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<61E50C31-27CD-484F-8480-645329555113@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-28T20:35:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<004f01cb1700$8b115980$53ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWhy limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot (Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some, makes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman, Maxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle. And since\nSeverian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You Zombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't count any of this theorizing as a conspiracy theory, if that is what you're implying here.\n\nThe idea of a boy in a bubble is very plausible, and could be the context for this entire story. How many side-stories involving plays, puppets or other theatrics are here in the text to serve as beacons?\n\nFather Inire clearly described as monkeylike...\n\n\"More fantastic still were the tales of his vizier, the famous Father Inire, who looked like a monkey and was the oldest man in the world.\"\n(SotT)\n\nAn old, monkeylike man pointing Severian on his way...\n\n\"When I admitted I did not, he scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins.\"\n(SotT)\n\nA painting of a painter who looks monkeylike, with red-hair...\n\n\"He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you saw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, except for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.\"\n(SotL)\n\n\nOh, and here's a red-bearded monkey spying on Severian, because why not? We never see Inire with his socks off, after all...\n\n\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, save for his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, spied on me from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n(CotC)\n\nThose are just a few I pulled. The crissing and crossing of things in the book is impossible to ignore, however over the top it may seem. No?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C29168D.8040804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-28T21:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<6EEA45AB-8CB1-4B4F-AFCF-8D154A8D1741@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course. And as I said, the fact that Inire never shows his face in \nthe conventional manner means he must appear in disguise or unannounced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 28, 2010, at 3:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's one thing to suggest multiple Inires. He could probably handle that. And if so, then one of them could be blind without them all being blind. And I suppose the multiple names would be so he could keep himself straight.\n\nAlso, since Father Inire himself never appears, it follows that he must appear as something other than Father Inire.\n\nBut I agree with what I think is your skepticism: there is the principle of conservation of characters, but this is overapplication. At this rate, anyone (male) could be Inire after several hundred years, even Severian if he works on his tan.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally, I think all of the coincidences or overly convenient happenings in BotNS are a product of design, not chance, or an easy way out for Wolfe. Would you agree?\n\nIf so, why not suspect two known time-travelers in this text, Severian and Inire (in no particular order). What is the endgame for them? To bring the New Sun, correct?\n\nNot sure why it is such a stretch to see Inire in disguise, helping the way. In fact, Rudesind giving different directions may have saved him from (I dunno) an armiger's ambush? Not drawing random conclusions, just saying there would be a \"reason\" for Inire to plant himself along Severian's journey, no?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2916E4.9000009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-28T21:40:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C29054E.3030105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brillliant!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n\nI have a theory that red-hair in the Sun Cycle is an intentional \nassociation with Typhon in some way. Red-hair is signifier of being a \nwerewolf, and the red-haired sacrificial victims in the Osiris cult \nwere called \"Typhonians\".\n\n~ J. u+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C291752.5030702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-28T21:42:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there will be no \"they\" left. They will all be us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And since\nSeverian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You Zombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...and some day they'll want us.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2919A9.5040206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-28T21:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<61E50C31-27CD-484F-8480-645329555113@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely sometimes a monkey is just a monkey.\n\nIt is at very least a theme. We certainly do need to note any time \n\"monkey\" is used to describe a character. It may be Typhonian, it may be \na trickster. Typhon himself is a bit of a trickster. And Severian is \ncertainly in a kind of bubble. But Palaemon? Isn't he almost blind?\n\nAlso, recall that exultants are very tall and long-limbed. I assume that \nInire, who is after all not really human, would have a monkey \nface---that that is what is meant by that description. Limbs alone may \nnot be enough. Is he red-haired?\n\nDoes anyone know whether exultants have simply retained our unnatural \n21st century height while everyone else shrank with the new ice age, or \nexultants were actually made taller by breeding or other means? There is \na detailed discussion of exultant families and their dwindling---this \nsuggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a created class of \nfreaks. Are any units of measurement or comparisons used that could tell us?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jun 28, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot \n(Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some, makes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman, \nMaxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle. And since\nSeverian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You \nZombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't count any of this theorizing as a conspiracy theory, if \nthat is what you're implying here.\n\nThe idea of a boy in a bubble is very plausible, and could be the \ncontext for this entire story. How many side-stories involving plays, \npuppets or other theatrics are here in the text to serve as beacons?\n\nFather Inire clearly described as monkeylike...\n\n/\"More fantastic still were the tales of his vizier, the famous Father \nInire, who looked like a monkey and was the oldest man in the world.\"\n(SotT)/\n\nAn old, monkeylike man pointing Severian on his way...\n\n/\"When I admitted I did not, he scrambled down from the ladder like an \naged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands \nwere as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins.\"\n(SotT)/\n\nA painting of a painter who looks monkeylike, with red-hair...\n\n/\"He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red \nhair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you \nsaw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, \nexcept for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.\"\n(SotL)/\n\n\nOh, and here's a red-bearded monkey spying on Severian, because why \nnot? We never see Inire with his socks off, after all...\n\n/\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, \nsave for his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, \nspied on me from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n(CotC)/\n/\n/\nThose are just a few I pulled. The crissing and crossing of things in \nthe book is impossible to ignore, however over the top it may seem. No?\n\n...ryan\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9DB6B5DC-2961-40FB-8713-02703C3EDB19@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T00:49:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2919A9.5040206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThere is a detailed discussion of exultant families and their dwindling---this suggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a created class of freaks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, there used to be more families over the course of histories, but it seemed to me that Gurloes was impressing upon Severian the VASTNESS of the exultant families still going, no?\n\nThere are nearly 3,000 exultant blood lines still going, based on this math...\n\n.\n\n\"He turned, and after searching the disorderly shelves behind his chair produced a squat book. 'Have you any notion how many exulted families there are? This lists only the ones that are still going. A compendium of the extinguished ones would take an encyclopedia, I suppose. I've extinguished a few of them myself.'\n\nHe laughed and I laughed with him.\n\n'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and forty- six pages.'\"\n\n.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T00:54:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<61E50C31-27CD-484F-8480-645329555113@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, save\nfor his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, spied on\nme from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n(CotC)\n\nThose are just a few I pulled. The crissing and crossing of things in the\nbook is impossible to ignore, however over the top it may seem. No?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Severian likes monkeys so he writes about them in preference to the\nother inconsequentialities that go unrecorded." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T01:17:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Wolfe is using monkeys as a motif for some reason. Not every literary\nchoice is justified in the plot.\n\nThat said, at least *some *of the candidates have to be Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, save\nfor his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, spied on\nme from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n(CotC)\n\nThose are just a few I pulled. The crissing and crossing of things in the\nbook is impossible to ignore, however over the top it may seem. No?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe Severian likes monkeys so he writes about them in preference to the\nother inconsequentialities that go unrecorded.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2c19ebb2c14505dd8690b6b483bb6e8d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T01:19:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<9DB6B5DC-2961-40FB-8713-02703C3EDB19@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is a detailed discussion of exultant families and their\ndwindling---this suggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a\ncreated class of freaks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're both. Exultants have greater height genetically, and enhance it\nfurther by harvesting hormones or actual glands from their khaibits. This\nmodification for greater height may be a tradition going back as far as\nthe stone town:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Head_Shaping.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, there used to be more families over the course of histories, but it\nseemed to me that Gurloes was impressing upon Severian the VASTNESS of the\nexultant families still going, no?\n\nThere are nearly 3,000 exultant blood lines still going, based on this\nmath..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and forty-\nsix pages.'\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2 x 746 = 1492, but that may not be a one for one correspondence, as one\nfamily may include others by marriage, like Prince Charles being a Windsor\nas well as a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and a \nSchleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gl?cksburg, which are themselves obviously\nmade of other families, each with their own laws about succession and\ninheritance." } ] }, { "message_id": "<387ca3ae29defc9d2738a015491d800d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T01:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or Wolfe is using monkeys as a motif for some reason. Not every literary\nchoice is justified in the plot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe *Wolfe* likes monkeys are writes about them in preference to the\nother inconsequentialities that go unrecorded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That said, at least *some *of the candidates have to be Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T01:36:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<387ca3ae29defc9d2738a015491d800d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as Dan Rabin pointed out on this list, Severian implies pretty\nstrongly in Autarch that he knows Inire was the uturuncu:\n\n\"We even know that your master was with us in the jungles of the north,\nwhere he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor.\"\n\nIf that's right--if we were supposed to pick up that the bent old shaman in\nthe jungle was Inire--then we're pretty directly being challenged to reread\nthe text from the beginning looking for the guy (and to question whether\nSeverian's \"perfect\" memory is consistent with Inire's stalking.) I buy\nmotifs, and I buy red herrings, but I don't buy that there's that broad clue\nand a million monkeylike references without there being at least a little\nfire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOr Wolfe is using monkeys as a motif for some reason. Not every literary\nchoice is justified in the plot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe *Wolfe* likes monkeys are writes about them in preference to the\nother inconsequentialities that go unrecorded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That said, at least *some *of the candidates have to be Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why is that?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2965EC.8030805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-29T03:18:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<2c19ebb2c14505dd8690b6b483bb6e8d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks.\n\nAnd thanks for that disturbing image!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Jun 28, 2010, at 5:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There is a detailed discussion of exultant families and their\ndwindling---this suggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a\ncreated class of freaks.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They're both. Exultants have greater height genetically, and enhance it\nfurther by harvesting hormones or actual glands from their khaibits. This\nmodification for greater height may be a tradition going back as far as\nthe stone town:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Head_Shaping.jpg\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, there used to be more families over the course of histories, but it\nseemed to me that Gurloes was impressing upon Severian the VASTNESS of the\nexultant families still going, no?\n\nThere are nearly 3,000 exultant blood lines still going, based on this\nmath...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and forty-\nsix pages.'\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2 x 746 = 1492, but that may not be a one for one correspondence, as one\nfamily may include others by marriage, like Prince Charles being a Windsor\nas well as a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and a \nSchleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gl?cksburg, which are themselves obviously\nmade of other families, each with their own laws about succession and\ninheritance.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C296670.3090008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-29T03:20:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\n\nBut which?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nOr Wolfe is using monkeys as a motif for some reason. Not every \nliterary choice is justified in the plot.\n \nThat said, at least /some /of the candidates have to be Inire.\n\nOn Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n > \"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who\n might, save\n > for his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur,\n spied on\n > me from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n > (CotC)\n >\n > Those are just a few I pulled. The crissing and crossing of\n things in the\n > book is impossible to ignore, however over the top it may seem. No?\n\n Maybe Severian likes monkeys so he writes about them in preference\n to the\n other inconsequentialities that go unrecorded.\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T03:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<2c19ebb2c14505dd8690b6b483bb6e8d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff,\n\nJust pointing out, that Gurloes's book is likely printed on both sides, which means one half of one side of one sheet = 4 families per page.\n\nBut yeah, could be some cross-over, though I took the book to be house names, irrelevant of the cross-pollenation.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n2 x 746 = 1492, but that may not be a one for one correspondence, as one\nfamily may include others by marriage, like Prince Charles being a Windsor\nas well as a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and a \nSchleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gl?cksburg, which are themselves obviously\nmade of other families, each with their own laws about succession and\ninheritance." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T03:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nJeff,\n\nJust pointing out, that Gurloes's book is likely printed on both sides, which means one half of one side of one sheet = 4 families per page.\n\nBut yeah, could be some cross-over, though I took the book to be house names, irrelevant of the cross-pollenation.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 28, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2 x 746 = 1492, but that may not be a one for one correspondence, as one\nfamily may include others by marriage, like Prince Charles being a Windsor\nas well as a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and a \nSchleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gl?cksburg, which are themselves obviously\nmade of other families, each with their own laws about succession and\ninheritance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh and also, I think having close to 3,000 exultant family names is still pretty sizable, though I may not have a good enough grasp on that in terms of Urth vs. Earth.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00d301cb173d$43c1a840$36d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-29T03:43:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2919A9.5040206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoes anyone know whether exultants have simply retained our unnatural\n21st century height while everyone else shrank with the new ice age, or\nexultants were actually made taller by breeding or other means? There is\na detailed discussion of exultant families and their dwindling---this\nsuggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a created class of\nfreaks. Are any units of measurement or comparisons used that could tell\nus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. According to Wolfe, Severian is 6'1\". The exultant Ultan was a head and\na half taller than Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Back to the topic. Ryan Dunn wrote:\nMy whole take on Inire, is that he is something of a puppetmaster. We get\nan in-depth story from Thecla about Inire's mirrors, and how he is a master\nof the corridors of time. We also get plenty allusion that Severian lives in\nparallel timelines, none more evident than as Apu Punchau.\n\nThe motivation, IMO, would be for Inire and perhaps Severian to be in\ncollusion in trying to shape the Severian (that we follow in BotNS) to\nbecome the New Sun. If at first you don't succeed..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And how would being a famous painter two generations before Severian's time\nhave furthered the coming of the New Sun?\n\nHow would probing a lake for forty years looking for the body of Severian's\ngrandmother have helped? Where did Inire find the time, since he was the Old\nAutarch's vizier during those years? Not to mention that the old boatman\ndied but Inire was still there as Severian's vizier for another ten years.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7C7FC621-87EA-4E32-8DA3-3DB4692AC31D@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T04:02:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<00d301cb173d$43c1a840$36d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:43 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAnd how would being a famous painter two generations before Severian's time\nhave furthered the coming of the New Sun?\n\nHow would probing a lake for forty years looking for the body of Severian's\ngrandmother have helped? Where did Inire find the time, since he was the Old\nAutarch's vizier during those years? Not to mention that the old boatman\ndied but Inire was still there as Severian's vizier for another ten years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you disagree then that Inire appears to us in any form during the course of the books?\n\nI never thought the boatman was Inire, btw. But the boatman seems to be the same man at Gyoll who asks Roche (?) whether Severian mentioned a woman after his drowning.\n\nRudesind could be Inire, in order to get Severian to Ultan.\n\nNot sure about Fechin (maybe too deep for me).\n\nBut why go to the trouble to make a point of a character having monkey-like qualities, which is clearly how Inire is described (at least second or third hand)?\n\nRegarding Ossipago, he may/may not be Inire. I do however suspect he and Palaemon are of the same ilk if not the same being outright.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T04:06:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<7C7FC621-87EA-4E32-8DA3-3DB4692AC31D@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nBut why go to the trouble to make a point of a character having monkey-like\nqualities, which is clearly how Inire is described (at least second or third\nhand)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Motif; red herring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding Ossipago, he may/may not be Inire. I do however suspect he and\nPalaemon are of the same ilk if not the same being outright." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T04:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:06 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nRegarding Ossipago, he may/may not be Inire. I do however suspect he and Palaemon are of the same ilk if not the same being outright.\n \nWhy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because hidden eyes never sit well with me.\n\n:)\n\nAnd because I interpret BotNS from a paranoid POV, meaning I believe there are people watching/shaping Severian's life from start to finish. I agree with Borski, insofar as Terminus Est potentially having a tracking device for FBO to track Severian. And with Ossipago being the \"odd thing out\" compared to F and B, I sense a roboticness about him, same as I do with Palaemon.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<926FFC3E-1E8D-4FE7-99CA-902E2E0312DA@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T04:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:06 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nBut why go to the trouble to make a point of a character having monkey-like qualities, which is clearly how Inire is described (at least second or third hand)?\n \nMotif; red herring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, I argue against/reject the idea of red herrings in a Gene Wolfe novel.\n\nMotif maybe, but a red herring just feels too lazy and convenient. Easier to just leave it alone, find a different descriptor, then.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-06-29T06:01:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<926FFC3E-1E8D-4FE7-99CA-902E2E0312DA@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:06 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But why go to the trouble to make a point of a character having monkey-like qualities, which is clearly how Inire is described (at least second" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have any firm opinions about this subject, but this could just be a very cheeky signifier to show ANY meddling with Severian. These Monkies might just be Agents of Inire.\n\nWhy would the boatman be an agent? Maybe the boatman stirred Dorcas his way.\nDon't know, but if they're monkeying with his timeline to produce some certain characteristics then Dorcas is somehow a part of it, right." } ] }, { "message_id": "<017101cb1756$607ca980$36d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-29T06:43:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<7C7FC621-87EA-4E32-8DA3-3DB4692AC31D@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nDo you disagree then that Inire appears to us in any form during the\ncourse of the books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he was the guy in a cowel who led Sev out of the House Absolute and\nback to the theater troupe. And of course that he was the shaman in the\njungle who tried to rescue the Old Autarch. And he may have been the ape-dog\nthing that looked in on Sev in the lazaret after the avern duel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I never thought the boatman was Inire, btw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Lee does, and we had this whole monkey battle a few years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the boatman seems to be the same man at Gyoll who asks Roche (?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "whether Severian mentioned a woman after his drowning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many people have thought so, but there are some who don't buy it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind could be Inire, in order to get Severian to Ultan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, and Rudesind could have lied about the letter from Inire at the end of\nCITADEL. Of course he would have been lying to the new autarch, the autarch\nInire would be vizier to for the next ten years. A rather foolish thing to\ndo, it seems to me. And Sev may not be as smart as some people like to\nthink, but how stupid would he have to be not to have found Inire out in\nthose ten years that went by before he wrote the manuscript that detailed\nthat meeting?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure about Fechin (maybe too deep for me)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That old battle. Again. I haven't changed my mind and neither has Lee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why go to the trouble to make a point of a character having\nmonkey-like qualities, which is clearly how Inire is described (at least\nsecond or third hand)?\n\nRegarding Ossipago, he may/may not be Inire. I do however suspect he and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Palaemon are of the same ilk if not the same being outright." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ossipago is a machine. Palaemon is very, very human, an old man who aged\nvisibly in the six months between Sev's exile and return to the tower as\nautarch. That one scene near the end of CITADEL is enough to show that\nclearly. Sev was able to see in the old man's face the youth he had been.\nAnd he eats and drinks wine, sighs, makes facial expressions, etc. He is a\nman.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T13:13:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<017101cb1756$607ca980$36d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes \nare obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some version\nof Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be \nCatherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear\nas grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he called\n\"Father\" Inire? I can't recall any religious association." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot (Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some, makes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman, Maxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size, shape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a female \nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is Father,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are never quite \ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake essence. I\ndon't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original entity or not\nbut they could be.\n \nGiven the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple versions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and travels. We\nare told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I suspect, \nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it wasn't a\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when Severian \nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n \nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire? \n \nGenesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to cleanse \nthe earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of fallen \nangels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's resistance to\nthe seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the Flood\nof Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.\n \nI suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of \nJudeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and monsters\nof pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous, large sized, \nanimal essenced, shape-changing, other \"magic\" abilities, mating with humans, the\npattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and twisted, \nsometimes depicted with red hair).\n \nOne more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving \"uncle\" who seems to \nknow so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history of humanity\nand the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with Catherine. \nCyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the chestnut color\nwe find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse which seems to\nplague Severian's family- the Father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You Zombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was unhappy with his\nstatus as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces of strangers\nfor signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly themed in \nFifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance in New Sun also.\n \n(p.s. the \"battles\" over these issues from a few years ago were invaluable to me in \nhelping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who participated and \nhelped me)\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A186A.10203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T15:59:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/28/2010 8:36 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nWell, as Dan Rabin pointed out on this list, Severian implies pretty\nstrongly in Autarch that he knows Inire was the uturuncu:\n\"We even know that your master was with us in the jungles of the north,\nwhere he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor.\"\nIf that's right--if we were supposed to pick up that the bent old shaman\nin the jungle was Inire--then we're pretty directly being challenged to\nreread the text from the beginning looking for the guy (and to question\nwhether Severian's \"perfect\" memory is consistent with Inire's\nstalking.) I buy motifs, and I buy red herrings, but I don't buy that\nthere's that broad clue and a million monkeylike references without\nthere being at least a little fire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I can buy that Inire would come out to help the old Autarch in a \nmatter of life oe death and given his fame and distinctive appearance \nthat he would be in disguise, but that's an argument for one of them to \nbe Inire. Just watching/stalking seems to be more than adequately \ncovered by the aquastors in the field and the zillion servants in the \nCitadel and House." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A1D6C.6060501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T16:21:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/28/2010 10:22 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nJeff,\n\nJust pointing out, that Gurloes's book is likely printed on both sides, which means one half of one side of one sheet = 4 families per page." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and forty- \nsix pages.'\n\nUnless Gurloes is like Rainman, he got the page count from the last \nnumbered page. Traditionally there is one numbered page on either side \nof a leaf. But whatever a \"page\" is, there are 746 of them, and each one \ncan only have two halves, so the accommodated number of families remains \napprox 1500.\n\nOrdinarily I wouldn't bother digressing on this, but it does establish \nsomething of a maximum degree of precision for figures given in the \nbook, and I'm warming up to a new estimate on the Wall's height based on \nOuen's comments where it might be important." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A2020.103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T16:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<00d301cb173d$43c1a840$36d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/28/2010 10:43 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAnd how would being a famous painter two generations before Severian's time\nhave furthered the coming of the New Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fechin being a historical painter sharing a name with a painter whose \npaintings can be attested as originals by the subject makes wonder if \nInire didn't collect them and Rudesind through time. That would also \nexplain why the Apollo image is still suitable for viewing after many \nchilliads - it's only a few subjective centuries old at most." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T17:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A1D6C.6060501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still think the books are printed on both sides of one page, like basically ALL other books you currently own.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/28/2010 10:22 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff,\n\nJust pointing out, that Gurloes's book is likely printed on both sides, which means one half of one side of one sheet = 4 families per page." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and forty- six pages.'\n\nUnless Gurloes is like Rainman, he got the page count from the last numbered page. Traditionally there is one numbered page on either side of a leaf. But whatever a \"page\" is, there are 746 of them, and each one can only have two halves, so the accommodated number of families remains approx 1500.\n\nOrdinarily I wouldn't bother digressing on this, but it does establish something of a maximum degree of precision for figures given in the book, and I'm warming up to a new estimate on the Wall's height based on Ouen's comments where it might be important.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T18:08:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...and almost everyone in the world refers to a \"page\" as being a single\nface of the paper, not a single sheet of paper. Which there are different\nnumbers on the opposite sides of the sheet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI still think the books are printed on both sides of one page, like\nbasically ALL other books you currently own.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jun 29, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/28/2010 10:22 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff,\n\nJust pointing out, that Gurloes's book is likely printed on both sides,\nwhich means one half of one side of one sheet = 4 families per page." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and forty-\nsix pages.'\n\nUnless Gurloes is like Rainman, he got the page count from the last\nnumbered page. Traditionally there is one numbered page on either side of a\nleaf. But whatever a \"page\" is, there are 746 of them, and each one can only\nhave two halves, so the accommodated number of families remains approx 1500.\n\nOrdinarily I wouldn't bother digressing on this, but it does establish\nsomething of a maximum degree of precision for figures given in the book,\nand I'm warming up to a new estimate on the Wall's height based on Ouen's\ncomments where it might be important.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A3786.6030008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T18:12:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/29/2010 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI still think the books are printed on both sides of one page, like basically ALL other books you currently own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why then does each \"page\" have two numbers?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T18:15:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A3786.6030008@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/29/2010 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still think the books are printed on both sides of one page, like\nbasically ALL other books you currently own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why then does each \"page\" have two numbers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the most peculiar argument I've ever had on this list. Maybe\nanywhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T18:18:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A3786.6030008@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, total mind melt. I spaced on that one. So pages, not sheets, I can dig that.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 29, 2010, at 2:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/29/2010 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still think the books are printed on both sides of one page, like basically ALL other books you currently own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why then does each \"page\" have two numbers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4322ad89dd5bf05ecf17b4d358c5e4e3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-29T18:58:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A3786.6030008@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone here knows what a leaf is, right?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/29/2010 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still think the books are printed on both sides of one page, like\nbasically ALL other books you currently own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why then does each \"page\" have two numbers?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A431F.7030809@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-29T19:01:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/29/2010 1:08 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n...and almost everyone in the world refers to a \"page\" as being a single\nface of the paper, not a single sheet of paper. Which there are\ndifferent numbers on the opposite sides of the sheet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Technically, most published books have several pages printed on a large \nsheet of paper that is called a signature when it is folded for \nattachment to others to form a volume. They are (or were) then cut into \nseparate leaves to give the reader access to the pages otherwise \nconcealed within the folds.\n\nThe Book Club edition of SotL, for instance, has 16 signatures by my \ncount, accounting for the 279 pages of story, 1 about the author, and 8 \nfront matter if they alternate 10 leaves as in the first signature with \n8 leaves as in the last. There are two more protective blank leaves of \nsturdier paper which are actually part of the end papers glued inside \nthe covers." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FC63659E0974CDC93D035CBE24C3597@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-06-29T19:04:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2919A9.5040206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nDoes anyone know whether exultants have simply retained our unnatural 21st \ncentury height while everyone else shrank with the new ice age, or \nexultants were actually made taller by breeding or other means? There is a \ndetailed discussion of exultant families and their dwindling---this \nsuggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a created class of \nfreaks. Are any units of measurement or comparisons used that could tell \nus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't Jonas say \"those old families are the newest of all\"? This suggests \nthat it is the exultants who differ.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A83DC.5060305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-29T23:38:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A1D6C.6060501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. Two pages make a leaf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/28/2010 10:22 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff,\n\nJust pointing out, that Gurloes's book is likely printed on both \nsides, which means one half of one side of one sheet = 4 families per \npage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'It gives about half a page to each. There are seven hundred and \nforty- six pages.'\n\nUnless Gurloes is like Rainman, he got the page count from the last \nnumbered page. Traditionally there is one numbered page on either side \nof a leaf. But whatever a \"page\" is, there are 746 of them, and each \none can only have two halves, so the accommodated number of families \nremains approx 1500.\n\nOrdinarily I wouldn't bother digressing on this, but it does establish \nsomething of a maximum degree of precision for figures given in the \nbook, and I'm warming up to a new estimate on the Wall's height based \non Ouen's comments where it might be important." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A8439.7010601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-29T23:39:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe bases all his \"gods\" on \"real\" gods. Yes, there does seem to be a \npairing of Mother and Father in Inire and the Cumaean, but then there \nwould be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWell, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nYes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes \nare obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some version\nof Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be \nCatherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear\nas grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he called\n\"Father\" Inire? I can't recall any religious association.\n \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself? \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nIf he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes.\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot (Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some, makes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman, Maxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nIn UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size, shape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a female \nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is Father,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are never quite \ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake essence. I\ndon't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original entity or not\nbut they could be.\n \nGiven the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple versions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and travels. We\nare told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I suspect, \nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it wasn't a\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when Severian \nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n \nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire? \n \nGenesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to cleanse \nthe earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of fallen \nangels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's resistance to\nthe seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the Flood\nof Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.\n \nI suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of \nJudeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and monsters\nof pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous, large sized, \nanimal essenced, shape-changing, other \"magic\" abilities, mating with humans, the\npattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and twisted, \nsometimes depicted with red hair).\n \nOne more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving \"uncle\" who seems to \nknow so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history of humanity\nand the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with Catherine. \nCyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the chestnut color\nwe find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse which seems to\nplague Severian's family- the Father.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You Zombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was unhappy with his\nstatus as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces of strangers\nfor signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly themed in \nFifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance in New Sun also.\n \n(p.s. the \"battles\" over these issues from a few years ago were invaluable to me in \nhelping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who participated and \nhelped me)\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A8E44.5040704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-30T00:22:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Exultants", "in_reply_to": "<8FC63659E0974CDC93D035CBE24C3597@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, that does make sense. And if Severian were the exultant norm, \nthat would be one thing---but he's not. Presumably he's half-exultant. \nI'm sure someone has worked all that out.\n\nWould Severian's mother have had to give birth while she was in the \nhands of the torturers for him to have been kept and raised in the \nguild, since his father supposedly is alive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone know whether exultants have simply retained our unnatural \n21st century height while everyone else shrank with the new ice age, \nor exultants were actually made taller by breeding or other means? \nThere is a detailed discussion of exultant families and their \ndwindling---this suggests to me a dying race of world-rulers, not a \ncreated class of freaks. Are any units of measurement or comparisons \nused that could tell us?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Didn't Jonas say \"those old families are the newest of all\"? This \nsuggests that it is the exultants who differ.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<279682a30f07f6be34054939efc1387e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-30T00:41:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A8439.7010601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These guys are not gods.\n\nThey are angels or fairies or some such.\n\nThe distinction is nontrivial.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe bases all his \"gods\" on \"real\" gods. Yes, there does seem to be a\npairing of Mother and Father in Inire and the Cumaean, but then there\nwould be.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes\nare obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some version\nof Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be\nCatherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear\nas grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he called\n\"Father\" Inire? I can't recall any religious association." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot\n(Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some,\nmakes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman,\nMaxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size,\nshape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a\nfemale\nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is\nFather,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are never\nquite\ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake\nessence. I\ndon't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original entity\nor not\nbut they could be.\n\nGiven the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple\nversions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and\ntravels. We\nare told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I\nsuspect,\nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it wasn't\na\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when\nSeverian\nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n\nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire?\n\nGenesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to\ncleanse\nthe earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of\nfallen\nangels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's\nresistance to\nthe seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the\nFlood\nof Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.\n\nI suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of\nJudeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and monsters\nof pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous, large\nsized,\nanimal essenced, shape-changing, other \"magic\" abilities, mating with\nhumans, the\npattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and\ntwisted,\nsometimes depicted with red hair).\n\nOne more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving \"uncle\" who\nseems to\nknow so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history of\nhumanity\nand the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with\nCatherine.\nCyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the\nchestnut color\nwe find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse\nwhich seems to\nplague Severian's family- the Father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You\nZombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was unhappy\nwith his\nstatus as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces\nof strangers\nfor signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly\nthemed in\nFifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance in\nNew Sun also.\n\n(p.s. the \"battles\" over these issues from a few years ago were\ninvaluable to me in\nhelping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who\nparticipated and\nhelped me)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T00:41:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Exultants", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A8E44.5040704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, that does make sense. And if Severian were the exultant norm,\nthat would be one thing---but he's not. Presumably he's half-exultant.\nI'm sure someone has worked all that out.\n\nWould Severian's mother have had to give birth while she was in the\nhands of the torturers for him to have been kept and raised in the\nguild, since his father supposedly is alive?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev mentions children who arrive with clients are sized and distributed\naccordingly. If there is no Dad or other next of kin available to take the\nclient's child at the time of the arrest, there may be no later\nopportunity to claim them from the soldiers, and the Seekers certainly\nwill not release them without orders." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2A9332.1010309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-06-30T00:43:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<279682a30f07f6be34054939efc1387e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thus the double quotes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThese guys are not gods.\n\nThey are angels or fairies or some such.\n\nThe distinction is nontrivial.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe bases all his \"gods\" on \"real\" gods. Yes, there does seem to be a\npairing of Mother and Father in Inire and the Cumaean, but then there\nwould be.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes\nare obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some version\nof Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be\nCatherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear\nas grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he called\n\"Father\" Inire? I can't recall any religious association.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot\n(Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some,\nmakes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman,\nMaxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size,\nshape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a\nfemale\nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is\nFather,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are never\nquite\ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake\nessence. I\ndon't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original entity\nor not\nbut they could be.\n\nGiven the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple\nversions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and\ntravels. We\nare told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I\nsuspect,\nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it wasn't\na\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when\nSeverian\nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n\nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire?\n\nGenesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to\ncleanse\nthe earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of\nfallen\nangels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's\nresistance to\nthe seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the\nFlood\nof Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.\n\nI suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of\nJudeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and monsters\nof pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous, large\nsized,\nanimal essenced, shape-changing, other \"magic\" abilities, mating with\nhumans, the\npattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and\ntwisted,\nsometimes depicted with red hair).\n\nOne more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving \"uncle\" who\nseems to\nknow so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history of\nhumanity\nand the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with\nCatherine.\nCyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the\nchestnut color\nwe find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse\nwhich seems to\nplague Severian's family- the Father.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You\nZombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was unhappy\nwith his\nstatus as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces\nof strangers\nfor signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly\nthemed in\nFifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance in\nNew Sun also.\n\n(p.s. the \"battles\" over these issues from a few years ago were\ninvaluable to me in\nhelping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who\nparticipated and\nhelped me)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-06-30T03:43:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A9332.1010309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Angels and fairies are not even a lot like gods.\n\nThey are much more like human beings than they are like gods.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus the double quotes.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These guys are not gods.\n\nThey are angels or fairies or some such.\n\nThe distinction is nontrivial.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe bases all his \"gods\" on \"real\" gods. Yes, there does seem to be a\npairing of Mother and Father in Inire and the Cumaean, but then there\nwould be.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes\nare obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some\nversion\nof Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be\nCatherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear\nas grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he\ncalled\n\"Father\" Inire? I can't recall any religious association." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot\n(Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some,\nmakes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman,\nMaxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size,\nshape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a\nfemale\nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is\nFather,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are\nnever\nquite\ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake\nessence. I\ndon't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original\nentity\nor not\nbut they could be.\n\nGiven the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple\nversions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and\ntravels. We\nare told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I\nsuspect,\nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it\nwasn't\na\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when\nSeverian\nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n\nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire?\n\nGenesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to\ncleanse\nthe earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of\nfallen\nangels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's\nresistance to\nthe seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the\nFlood\nof Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.\n\nI suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of\nJudeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and\nmonsters\nof pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous,\nlarge\nsized,\nanimal essenced, shape-changing, other \"magic\" abilities, mating with\nhumans, the\npattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and\ntwisted,\nsometimes depicted with red hair).\n\nOne more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving \"uncle\" who\nseems to\nknow so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history\nof\nhumanity\nand the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with\nCatherine.\nCyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the\nchestnut color\nwe find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse\nwhich seems to\nplague Severian's family- the Father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You\nZombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was\nunhappy\nwith his\nstatus as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces\nof strangers\nfor signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly\nthemed in\nFifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance\nin\nNew Sun also.\n\n(p.s. the \"battles\" over these issues from a few years ago were\ninvaluable to me in\nhelping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who\nparticipated and\nhelped me)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2AC0C8.8090102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T03:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes \nare obscured.\n\nI'm only working the Oook angle here.\n\nOook In Oz: A Radical Reinterpretation of the Book of the New Sun.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002f01cb180d$52a0c320$0cd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-06-30T04:32:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:\nWhy limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot\n(Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some, makes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman,\nMaxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size,\nshape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. And I thought I might have been too sarcastic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there is a female\nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is\nFather,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are never\nquite\ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake essence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "don't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original entity or\nnot\nbut they could be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Cumaean was a Hierodule, so Inire had told Sev (URTH, 357). Famulimus\nand Barbatus nodded agreement when he said that in the tomb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple\nversions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and travels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "are told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I\nsuspect,\nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it wasn't a\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when\nSeverian\nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n\nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkiel is a Hierogrammate. The Hierogrammates created the Hierodules to\nserve them. Hierodules are short-lived, according to Baldanders, living only\nabout as long as a dog. That statement is indirectly confirmed by Barbatus\nwhen he said that \"We've known you half our lives now, Severian, . . .\"\n(URTH, 356) They had known and advised Sev for the ten years he had been\nautarch before leaving for Yesod.\n\nIn the first paragraph of chapter XXXVIII in CITADEL, Sev wrote: \". . . old\nFather Inire, alive so long beyond the span of his short-lived kind . . .\"\n\nIt is never directly stated in the Urth Cycle that Inire is a Hierodule, but\nwhen you put these clues together, the implication is that Inire was a\nHierodule, regardless of how he may have lived so much longer than he should\nhave.\n\nHierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T12:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<002f01cb180d$52a0c320$0cd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Huh. And I thought I might have been too sarcastic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is your value Roy! Even in sarcasm and skepticism you\nare very helpful as a sounding board. Your comment did force\nme to consider the gender aspect of shape changing a bit further.\nImproving my personal understanding of Wolfe books is a self-indulgent\nexercise but if putting it in print provides food for thought or\nfodder for amusement or even derision in others, I am content\nwith any of that.\n\nIn trying to understand an SF story such as this I find it to be more\nfiction than science. So I expect metaphor and allusion to have a more \nimportant role than, say, a book on astronomy. Thus I have trouble with\nan argument that a character with the angelic name Tzadkiel is not an angel\nbut is rather a Hierogrammate. Why not both? \n \nSince Biblical angels are arranged in a tiered hierarchy, why can't hierodules\nbe lower-tiered angels in our story? For me, Severian's recognition that Father\nInire's portals are a lesser version of Tzadkiel's portals is a way of expressing\nthe relationship. And I find that recognizing \"fallen angels\" is essential to my\nunderstanding of this story. But I know that is not the case for everyone.\n\nbrunians-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These guys are not gods. They are angels or fairies or some such." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDavid stockton did use quotes to address your concern. You are using\nthe lower-case g for your \"gods\". Is this not sufficient?\n \nIs it possible that ancient pagans confused aliens/angels (fallen or not)\nwith gods, fairies, monsters etc. Or, more to the point, is it worth \nconsidering that Gene Wolfe has explored this possibility in his writing?\n\n \n[some excerpts from articles about angel heirarchy]-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Dominions (lat. dominatio, pl. dominationes), also known as the Hashmallim,\nhold the task of regulating the duties of lower angels. It is only with extreme\nrarity that the angelic lords make themselves physically known to humans. The \nDominions are believed to look like divinely beautiful humans with a pair of \nfeathered wings, much like the common representation of Angels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In rabbinic writings Zadkiel belongs to the order of Hashmallim (equated with the\nDominations or Dominions), and considered by some sources to be chief of that order\nIn Maseket Azilut, Zadkiel/Hesediel is listed as co-chief with Gabriel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Principalities (lat. principatus, pl. principat?s) are shown wearing a crown\nand carrying a sceptre. Their duty also is said to be to carry out the orders\ngiven to them by the Dominions and bequeath blessings to the material world.\nTheir task is to oversee groups of people.They are the educators and guardians\nof the realm of earth both individuals, as well as groups. As beings related to\nthe world of the germinal ideas, they are said to inspire living things to many\nthings such as art or science. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B4EA9.3070005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T14:03:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Exultants", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 01:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right, that does make sense. And if Severian were the exultant norm,\nthat would be one thing---but he's not. Presumably he's half-exultant.\nI'm sure someone has worked all that out.\n\nWould Severian's mother have had to give birth while she was in the\nhands of the torturers for him to have been kept and raised in the\nguild, since his father supposedly is alive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev mentions children who arrive with clients are sized and distributed\naccordingly. If there is no Dad or other next of kin available to take\nthe client's child at the time of the arrest, there may be no later\nopportunity to claim them from the soldiers, and the Seekers certainly\nwill not release them without orders." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it can be economically explained by their simply not knowing who the\nfather was." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B4F90.4040708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T14:07:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<002f01cb180d$52a0c320$0cd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote (30-06-2010 05:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's prtobably time to point out, if it's news to anyone, that -dule means \n'slave'. The name 'hierodule' may look impressive but doesn't in fact mean \nits bearer is all that important." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B529C.3070609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T14:20:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (30-06-2010 13:37):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians-\nThese guys are not gods. They are angels or fairies or some such.\n\nDavid stockton did use quotes to address your concern. You are using the\nlower-case g for your \"gods\". Is this not sufficient?\n\nIs it possible that ancient pagans confused aliens/angels (fallen or\nnot) with gods, fairies, monsters etc. Or, more to the point, is it\nworth considering that Gene Wolfe has explored this possibility in his\nwriting?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just what a god (in the polytheist sense) and other preternatural being is \nmay not be easy to define in words, but nonetheless I think the distinction \nis all too clear. Most mythologies have gods and have other preternatural \nbeings, and they are not confused. That said, a powerful enough being that \nhas or seeks universal (i.e., not limited) domain of something usually ends \nup being considered a god, no matter its origins." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B53AF.6040606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T14:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B4F90.4040708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's prtobably time to point out, if it's news to anyone, that -dule \nmeans 'slave'. The name 'hierodule' may look impressive but doesn't in \nfact mean its bearer is all that important." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another word meaning \"slave\" is \"robot\". Ossipago is obviously a robot, \nbut I suppose that the \"race\" created by the Hierogrammates were \noriginally all robots/androids. Personally, I presume they all are still.\n\nJ u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B5CF2.3040202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T15:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B53AF.6040606@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's prtobably time to point out, if it's news to anyone, that -dule\nmeans 'slave'. The name 'hierodule' may look impressive but doesn't in\nfact mean its bearer is all that important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another word meaning \"slave\" is \"robot\". Ossipago is obviously a robot,\nbut I suppose that the \"race\" created by the Hierogrammates were\noriginally all robots/androids. Personally, I presume they all are still." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes a certain amount of sense - it avoids the problems of \ndepending on unreliable fleshy creatures, which could appeal to angels \nas beings of the spirit, but Tzadkeil and especially Alpheta seem to be \ncarnal beings as well." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B60E9.2030801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T15:21:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B5CF2.3040202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's prtobably time to point out, if it's news to anyone, that -dule\nmeans 'slave'. The name 'hierodule' may look impressive but doesn't in\nfact mean its bearer is all that important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another word meaning \"slave\" is \"robot\". Ossipago is obviously a robot,\nbut I suppose that the \"race\" created by the Hierogrammates were\noriginally all robots/androids. Personally, I presume they all are \nstill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That makes a certain amount of sense - it avoids the problems of \ndepending on unreliable fleshy creatures, which could appeal to angels \nas beings of the spirit, but Tzadkeil and especially Alpheta seem to \nbe carnal beings as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One can make robots out of flesh as well as tin, or cover the tin with a \nfleshy facade. The ways such creatures can be different from humans are \nvaried, extreme, subtle, and irrelevant. One could write a library of \nnovels denoting the difference.\n\nJ u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B71B3.5080308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T16:32:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B5CF2.3040202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's prtobably time to point out, if it's news to anyone, that -dule\nmeans 'slave'. The name 'hierodule' may look impressive but doesn't in\nfact mean its bearer is all that important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another word meaning \"slave\" is \"robot\". Ossipago is obviously a robot,\nbut I suppose that the \"race\" created by the Hierogrammates were\noriginally all robots/androids. Personally, I presume they all are still." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That makes a certain amount of sense - it avoids the problems of\ndepending on unreliable fleshy creatures, which could appeal to angels\nas beings of the spirit, but Tzadkeil and especially Alpheta seem to be\ncarnal beings as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T16:56:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B5CF2.3040202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 30, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAnother word meaning \"slave\" is \"robot\". Ossipago is obviously a robot,\nbut I suppose that the \"race\" created by the Hierogrammates were\noriginally all robots/androids. Personally, I presume they all are still." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That makes a certain amount of sense - it avoids the problems of depending on unreliable fleshy creatures, which could appeal to angels as beings of the spirit, but Tzadkeil and especially Alpheta seem to be carnal beings as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It still begs the question of Palaemon, whether he is a real man, or a robot. Why the lenses? I get wary when eyes are obscured in BotNS, and there is plenty situations involving \"masks\" of course.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B7863.1070103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T17:01:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It still begs the question of Palaemon, whether he is a real man, or a robot. Why the lenses? I get wary when eyes are obscured in BotNS, and there is plenty situations involving \"masks\" of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Corrective lenses? I presumed Palaemon is blind." } ] }, { "message_id": "<91f2cc4d1aa001a130756f20182ad487.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T18:28:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B71B3.5080308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Hierodules do not have the power and abilities of a Hierogrammate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's prtobably time to point out, if it's news to anyone, that -dule\nmeans 'slave'. The name 'hierodule' may look impressive but doesn't in\nfact mean its bearer is all that important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another word meaning \"slave\" is \"robot\". Ossipago is obviously a robot,\nbut I suppose that the \"race\" created by the Hierogrammates were\noriginally all robots/androids. Personally, I presume they all are\nstill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That makes a certain amount of sense - it avoids the problems of\ndepending on unreliable fleshy creatures, which could appeal to angels\nas beings of the spirit, but Tzadkeil and especially Alpheta seem to be\ncarnal beings as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T18:31:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<91f2cc4d1aa001a130756f20182ad487.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<018cac22ee920e555c6043759edb671b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T18:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So _demons_ build the robots?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T18:48:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<018cac22ee920e555c6043759edb671b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIt's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So _demons_ build the robots?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily: but it casts some doubt on whether the Hiero*foos are\ndoing God's work." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B9C60.1040708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T19:34:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 1:31 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that I'm bothered _much_, but --for the record-- it was Antonio who \nsaid the bit about only God being the creator. Antonio might mind. :-)\n\nJ u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T19:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2B9C60.1040708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 12:34 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nNot that I'm bothered _much_, but --for the record-- it was Antonio who said\nthe bit about only God being the creator. Antonio might mind. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops. Apologies to both." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2B9E82.6020606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T19:44:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So _demons_ build the robots?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not necessarily: but it casts some doubt on whether the Hiero*foos are\ndoing God's work.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another interpretation is that \"Heirodules\" is a grandiose term for \n\"robots created by the Heiro race\". That the Heirogrammates made and \nused robots is not necessarily sinful. Kindly, devout missionaries \nemploy water purifiers. What if the purifiers eventually became so \nsophisticated that they were _apparently_ self-aware? What if they were \nsophisticated enough to use extra-dimensional technology to improvise \nbased on their self-propagation programming to ensure the invention of \nwater purifiers everywhere?\n\nJ u+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2BFC40.6060404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T02:24:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2A8E44.5040704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine \ncover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy and \nScience Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg\n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's painting \nis a composite?\n\nThe entire archive can be found here:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/mags/fsf.html\n\nAre there other pulp magazines that are candidates?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2BFF9E.3090701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T02:38:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll make the quote marks bigger next time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAngels and fairies are not even a lot like gods.\n\nThey are much more like human beings than they are like gods.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus the double quotes.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "These guys are not gods.\n\nThey are angels or fairies or some such.\n\nThe distinction is nontrivial.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wolfe bases all his \"gods\" on \"real\" gods. Yes, there does seem to be a\npairing of Mother and Father in Inire and the Cumaean, but then there\nwould be.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan. Since he's clearly the\nLibrarian.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Yes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes\nare obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some\nversion\nof Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be\nCatherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear\nas grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he\ncalled\n\"Father\" Inire? I can't recall any religious association.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Is Inire known to travel in time, himself?\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot\n(Ossipago)\nand monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some,\nmakes\nhim related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman,\nMaxellindis'\nuncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "In UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size,\nshape\ngender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a\nfemale\nversion of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is\nFather,\nthe other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are\nnever\nquite\ntogether. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake\nessence. I\ndon't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original\nentity\nor not\nbut they could be.\n\nGiven the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple\nversions\nof the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and\ntravels. We\nare told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I\nsuspect,\nneither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it\nwasn't\na\ncoincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when\nSeverian\nshowed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?\n\nTzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire?\n\nGenesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to\ncleanse\nthe earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of\nfallen\nangels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's\nresistance to\nthe seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the\nFlood\nof Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.\n\nI suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of\nJudeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and\nmonsters\nof pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous,\nlarge\nsized,\nanimal essenced, shape-changing, other \"magic\" abilities, mating with\nhumans, the\npattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and\ntwisted,\nsometimes depicted with red hair).\n\nOne more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving \"uncle\" who\nseems to\nknow so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history\nof\nhumanity\nand the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with\nCatherine.\nCyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the\nchestnut color\nwe find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse\nwhich seems to\nplague Severian's family- the Father.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension \"All You\nZombies\"\nis us and we are Inire, but we are not alone.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was\nunhappy\nwith his\nstatus as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces\nof strangers\nfor signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly\nthemed in\nFifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance\nin\nNew Sun also.\n\n(p.s. the \"battles\" over these issues from a few years ago were\ninvaluable to me in\nhelping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who\nparticipated and\nhelped me)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C009C.4070402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T02:42:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bd7b1bfeebd3535b788f654d9b3efd4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:00:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C009C.4070402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C04EF.2010203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:01:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2BFC40.6060404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/30/2010 09:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine \ncover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy \nand Science Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg \n\n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's \npainting is a composite?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I \ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C0586.7090503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:03:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<1bd7b1bfeebd3535b788f654d9b3efd4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<487d2869bcbbd06452a6633012d86d83.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:04:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C0586.7090503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C0655.4010507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C04EF.2010203@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, exactly. That's why I went in search of art that wasn't published \nin the traditional sense, but that Wolfe may have seen. The best \ncandidate was painted after 1980. F&SF had post-moon mission covers in \nthe early 1970s.\n\nBut there is also Astounding, and there are others.\n\nIt's difficult to find ANY image containing all elements: astronaut, \nfaceplate, flag, and Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 06/30/2010 09:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine \ncover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy \nand Science Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg \n\n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's \npainting is a composite?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I \ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C06E3.4030806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:09:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<487d2869bcbbd06452a6633012d86d83.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a \nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way \nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nMaybe for you.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic manner.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C07E6.3040303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:13:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2BFC40.6060404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine\ncover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy and\nScience Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg\n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's painting\nis a composite?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it's a composite, it could be a composite of anything, and I think \nit's a bit of a knock to say the pulp covers are more inspirational than \nactual pictures of actual spacemen on the moon.\n\nA while back, we eliminated all of the then-recently released archive of \nApollo 11 surface photography, as well as all of Alan Bean's work of an \nage to have been influential on BoTNS. If the paining is intended to be \nan original painting and not a portraitized photograph, it is likely \nthat the combination of details became traditional at some point when \nsome painter deviated from the strictly historical but was well received \nnonetheless, like wozzname conflating Cupid with cherubim." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1362277e8ba9279d24e4bc37d6ab862a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:21:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C06E3.4030806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C2011.9060307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T04:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C0655.4010507@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I \ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a picture, maybe an illustration --a famous one-- that I \nremember from my childhood.\nAn astronaut on the moon. The Earth over his shoulder. The American flag \nbehind him or beside him. I thought that was the one when I read the \ndescription.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-01T06:32:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleanedby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C2011.9060307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nRudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I \ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a picture, maybe an illustration --a famous one-- that I remember \nfrom my childhood.\nAn astronaut on the moon. The Earth over his shoulder. The American flag \nbehind him or beside him. I thought that was the one when I read the \ndescription." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have exactly the same feeling. But it may be that we are creating a \ncomposite image, or that Wolfe did, or both.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C8246.4000506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T11:55:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C07E6.3040303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff, no one said pulp covers were more inspirational than photos.\n\nBut if you eliminate Apollo 11 photos and Alan Bean, what's left?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/30/2010 9:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine\ncover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy and\nScience Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg \n\n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's painting\nis a composite?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it's a composite, it could be a composite of anything, and I think \nit's a bit of a knock to say the pulp covers are more inspirational \nthan actual pictures of actual spacemen on the moon.\n\nA while back, we eliminated all of the then-recently released archive \nof Apollo 11 surface photography, as well as all of Alan Bean's work \nof an age to have been influential on BoTNS. If the paining is \nintended to be an original painting and not a portraitized \nphotograph, it is likely that the combination of details became \ntraditional at some point when some painter deviated from the strictly \nhistorical but was well received nonetheless, like wozzname conflating \nCupid with cherubim." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C8387.5010304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<1362277e8ba9279d24e4bc37d6ab862a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical \nobservation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWho usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9fac183a23bf63f1fde155e70d5c4378.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8387.5010304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good.\n\nI feel totally free to disregard it as being basically meaningless.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use\n\"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is\nusurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:18:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8387.5010304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as the\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct contact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and is\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The pretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and the\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but like\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed from\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNo one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use \"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is usurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C897F.2000807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C2011.9060307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thinl we all did. But can you find the image?\n\nWas it perhaps National Geographic?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I \ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a picture, maybe an illustration --a famous one-- that I \nremember from my childhood.\nAn astronaut on the moon. The Earth over his shoulder. The American \nflag behind him or beside him. I thought that was the one when I read \nthe description.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C89AD.8000602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I want to find out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n----- Original Message ----- From: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I \ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a picture, maybe an illustration --a famous one-- that I \nremember from my childhood.\nAn astronaut on the moon. The Earth over his shoulder. The American \nflag behind him or beside him. I thought that was the one when I read \nthe description." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have exactly the same feeling. But it may be that we are creating a \ncomposite image, or that Wolfe did, or both.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<255f1539f7494f890e5b5471c8d08921.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:28:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Three for me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use\n\"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is\nusurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<340be9ebf3b4dc0edced26c8b3c68291.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use\n\"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is\nusurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C8B1A.40900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\n\nSimilarly, but beyond the scope of this list, is Yahweh lawfully in \ncharge of a creation he created, or not?\n\n2 x 2 = 4 possible variations: lawful creation, lawful governance, \nunlawful usurpation of creation, unlawful usurpation of creative powers. \nSee TBotLS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nRight. \n \nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not \nas the Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important \nquestion of the series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there \nare in fact three options:\n \n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct \ncontact with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely \ntrusted and is a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The \npretentions of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains \nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock \nand the Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its \nwill is sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she \ncan, but like the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and \ninfinitely removed from the mind of the Increate.\n \nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n \nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general\n theoretical observation.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n Who usurping where?\n\n Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\n I don't think so.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n \n\n No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the\n concept of a\n local archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can\n explain it any way\n you want, but that's the concept.\n\n Think Tolkien.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n \n\n Maybe for you.\n\n .\n\n\n\n \n\n The question, then, is whether such delegation\n occurred---or not.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n \n\n I don't buy it.\n\n God delegates all the time.\n\n .\n\n\n\n \n\n Precisely.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n \n\n On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff\n Wilson >\n wrote:\n\n\n\n \n\n Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010\n 16:04):\n\n\n\n \n\n On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM,\n James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n \n\n There's that thing about only\n God being creator.\n\n\n\n \n\n How is that relevant here? Do you\n prefer that people use \"assemble\"\n instead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n \n\n It's relevant because a race that\n creates a (slave) race is usurping\n the privilege of the Creator -- is in\n fact acting in daemonic\n manner.\n\n\n\n\n \n\n \n\n\n\n\n \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:34:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<340be9ebf3b4dc0edced26c8b3c68291.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't agree. With 1), everything Tzadkiel says can be taken as the Word\nof God. With 3), everything Tzadkiel says can be taken as being said with\ngood intention. Great gulf fixed there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:29 AM, wrote:\nThere is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C8B97.3090405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<340be9ebf3b4dc0edced26c8b3c68291.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "#1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and using the \nwords \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\" That would be \nmore distinct.\n\nAs I understand it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThere is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use\n\"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is\nusurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:40:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8B97.3090405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian\nand Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be *some *possible separation\nbetween angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been\npossible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of\nwhat this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it\ncould mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant\ncommunication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various\nerrors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit\nacts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on\none occasion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n#1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and using the\nwords \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\" That would be more\ndistinct.\n\nAs I understand it.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use\n\"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is\nusurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<73c0aa6b4f8a497d753903e27d059f86.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:52:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8B1A.40900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like Satan\nHe's rich and chocalatey\nHe's my boyfriend\nSatan, Satan, whee!\n\n-- Anonhymnous\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly.\n\nSimilarly, but beyond the scope of this list, is Yahweh lawfully in\ncharge of a creation he created, or not?\n\n2 x 2 = 4 possible variations: lawful creation, lawful governance,\nunlawful usurpation of creation, unlawful usurpation of creative powers.\nSee TBotLS.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not\nas the Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important\nquestion of the series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there\nare in fact three options:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely\ntrusted and is a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock\nand the Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its\nwill is sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she\ncan, but like the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and\ninfinitely removed from the mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general\n theoretical observation.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n Who usurping where?\n\n Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\n I don't think so.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the\n concept of a\n local archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can\n explain it any way\n you want, but that's the concept.\n\n Think Tolkien.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n Maybe for you.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n The question, then, is whether such delegation\n occurred---or not.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n I don't buy it.\n\n God delegates all the time.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n Precisely.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n\n On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff\n Wilson >\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010\n 16:04):\n\n\n\n\n\n On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM,\n James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n There's that thing about only\n God being creator.\n\n\n\n\n\n How is that relevant here? Do you\n prefer that people use \"assemble\"\n instead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n\n\n It's relevant because a race that\n creates a (slave) race is usurping\n the privilege of the Creator -- is in\n fact acting in daemonic\n manner.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2C8FD5.8090603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:53:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.\n\nUnder #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel \njust as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly \nmore connected.\n\nOne can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good \nintentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to \nthe deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more damage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nWell, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in \nChristian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible \nseparation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels \nwouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are \nvarious interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a \nconsciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for \ninstance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything \nlike it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think, \nhowever, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except \nfor of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion).\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and\n using the words \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\"\n That would be more distinct.\n\n As I understand it.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n .\n\n\n \n\n Right.\n\n Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents\n himself not as\n the\n Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important\n question of the\n series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in\n fact three\n options:\n\n 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less\n in direct\n contact\n with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be\n completely trusted and\n is\n a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.\n The\n pretentions\n of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n 3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense\n but remains\n metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in\n \"The Cock and\n the\n Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do\n its will is\n sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best\n he/she can, but\n like\n the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and\n infinitely removed\n from\n the mind of the Increate.\n\n I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\n On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n >wrote:\n\n \n\n No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a\n general theoretical\n observation.\n\n brunians at brunians.org \n wrote:\n\n \n\n Who usurping where?\n\n Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?\n Tzadkiel?\n\n I don't think so.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n No, the definition of usurping demands it. So\n does the concept of a\n local archon pretending to be the Outsider.\n You can explain it any way\n you want, but that's the concept.\n\n Think Tolkien.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n \n\n Maybe for you.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n The question, then, is whether such\n delegation occurred---or not.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n \n\n I don't buy it.\n\n God delegates all the time.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n Precisely.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n\n \n\n On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at\n 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson\n >\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n Jeff Wilson wrote\n (30-06-2010 16:04):\n \n\n\n\n\n \n \n\n On 6/30/2010\n 9:24 AM, James\n Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n \n \n\n There's that thing\n about only God\n being creator.\n\n\n\n\n\n \n \n\n How is that relevant\n here? Do you prefer\n that people use\n \"assemble\"\n instead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n It's relevant because a\n race that creates a\n (slave) race is\n usurping\n the privilege of the\n Creator -- is in fact\n acting in daemonic\n manner.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n\n\n\n \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:54:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Every resultant act is willed by God.\n\nWhat anyone says can be in error, and if in error belongs to them.\n\nInsofar as it is true, it belongs to God.\n\nAll action belongs to God.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't agree. With 1), everything Tzadkiel says can be taken as the Word\nof God. With 3), everything Tzadkiel says can be taken as being said with\ngood intention. Great gulf fixed there.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:29 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not\nas\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of\nthe\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted\nand\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock\nand\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely\nremoved\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T12:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe 'pertains' is better than 'belongs'.\n\nDepends. Depends upon is also good.\n\nBelongs is not exactly correct.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't agree. With 1), everything Tzadkiel says can be taken as the Word\nof God. With 3), everything Tzadkiel says can be taken as being said with\ngood intention. Great gulf fixed there.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:29 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not\nas\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of\nthe\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted\nand\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock\nand\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely\nremoved\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T13:07:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not talking about schools of thought.\n\nI am talking about reality as I know it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian\nand Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be *some *possible separation\nbetween angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been\npossible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of\nwhat this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it\ncould mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant\ncommunication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various\nerrors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit\nacts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on\none occasion).\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "#1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and using the\nwords \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\" That would be\nmore\ndistinct.\n\nAs I understand it.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Right.\n\nAlthough now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not\nas\nthe\nOutsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of\nthe\nseries is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three\noptions:\n\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact\nwith the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted\nand\nis\na more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions\nof religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock\nand\nthe\nAngel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike\nthe angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely\nremoved\nfrom\nthe mind of the Increate.\n\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general\ntheoretical\nobservation.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": " Who usurping where?\n\nWhich archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?\n\nI don't think so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a\nlocal archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any\nway\nyou want, but that's the concept.\n\nThink Tolkien.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Maybe for you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I don't buy it.\n\nGod delegates all the time.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Precisely.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 15, "text": "On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "There's that thing about only God being creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use\n\"assemble\"\ninstead of \"create\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is\nusurping\nthe privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<07eb1d984df90956bc9d4f5cd894e709.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T13:08:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8FD5.8090603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What the hell do you have in your pockets, anyway?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.\n\nUnder #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel\njust as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly\nmore connected.\n\nOne can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good\nintentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to\nthe deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more\ndamage.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in\nChristian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible\nseparation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels\nwouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are\nvarious interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a\nconsciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for\ninstance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything\nlike it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think,\nhowever, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except\nfor of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion).\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and\n using the words \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\"\n That would be more distinct.\n\n As I understand it.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n Right.\n\n Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents\n himself not as\n the\n Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important\n question of the\n series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in\n fact three\n options:\n\n 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less\n in direct\n contact\n with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be\n completely trusted and\n is\n a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.\n The\n pretentions\n of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n 3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense\n but remains\n metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in\n \"The Cock and\n the\n Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do\n its will is\n sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best\n he/she can, but\n like\n the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and\n infinitely removed\n from\n the mind of the Increate.\n\n I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\n On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n >wrote:\n\n\n\n No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a\n general theoretical\n observation.\n\n brunians at brunians.org \n wrote:\n\n\n\n Who usurping where?\n\n Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?\n Tzadkiel?\n\n I don't think so.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n No, the definition of usurping demands it. So\n does the concept of a\n local archon pretending to be the Outsider.\n You can explain it any way\n you want, but that's the concept.\n\n Think Tolkien.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n Maybe for you.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n The question, then, is whether such\n delegation occurred---or not.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n I don't buy it.\n\n God delegates all the time.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Precisely.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at\n 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson\n >\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Jeff Wilson wrote\n (30-06-2010 16:04):\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n On 6/30/2010\n 9:24 AM, James\n Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n There's that thing\n about only God\n being creator.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n How is that relevant\n here? Do you prefer\n that people use\n \"assemble\"\n instead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n It's relevant because a\n race that creates a\n (slave) race is\n usurping\n the privilege of the\n Creator -- is in fact\n acting in daemonic\n manner.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9B93F698-322E-49B8-AED9-395E5E7B1C61@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T13:14:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C04EF.2010203@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found a similar image from a later Apollo image, though the painting is a painting, after all, and not a photograph (I don't think).\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 30, 2010, at 11:01 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 06/30/2010 09:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine cover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg \n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's painting is a composite?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I could find, when I went looking a few years ago.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T13:24:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8FD5.8090603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks.\n\nObviously, the effect of Tzadkiel's actions is the coming of the New Sun and\nthe drowning of Urth. Lots and lots of people die in this, maybe for a\nredemptive higher meaning and maybe not. Under 1), we can be quite\nconfident that the slaughter was authorized by God, like the Flood or the\napocalypse, and therefore moral, at least by the author's lights (the\nreader's mileage may vary.) Under 2), the massacring of Urth is no less\nthan genocide. Under 3), it may be either--a clumsy attempt by incredibly\npowerful but fallible beings to enact what they understand to be the divine\nwill.\n\nI think 3) maybe makes for the best story. But with 2), there's the\npossibility of something else going on behind the scenes--maybe over the\ncourse of the next seven books--redeeming the act of evil. That would be a\npretty great story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.\n\nUnder #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel just\nas lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly more\nconnected.\n\nOne can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good\nintentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to the\ndeity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more damage.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian\nand Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible separation\nbetween angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been\npossible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of\nwhat this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it\ncould mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant\ncommunication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various\nerrors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit\nacts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on\none occasion).\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and\n using the words \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\"\n That would be more distinct.\n\n As I understand it.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n .\n\n\n\n Right.\n\n Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents\n himself not as\n the\n Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important\n question of the\n series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in\n fact three\n options:\n\n 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less\n in direct\n contact\n with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be\n completely trusted and\n is\n a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.\n The\n pretentions\n of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n 3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense\n but remains\n metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in\n \"The Cock and\n the\n Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do\n its will is\n sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best\n he/she can, but\n like\n the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and\n infinitely removed\n from\n the mind of the Increate.\n\n I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\n On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n >wrote:\n\n\n\n\n No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a\n general theoretical\n observation.\n\n brunians at brunians.org \n\n wrote:\n\n\n Who usurping where?\n\n Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?\n Tzadkiel?\n\n I don't think so.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n No, the definition of usurping demands it. So\n does the concept of a\n local archon pretending to be the Outsider.\n You can explain it any way\n you want, but that's the concept.\n\n Think Tolkien.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n Maybe for you.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n The question, then, is whether such\n delegation occurred---or not.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n I don't buy it.\n\n God delegates all the time.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Precisely.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at\n 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson\n >\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Jeff Wilson wrote\n (30-06-2010 16:04):\n\n\n\n\n\n\n On 6/30/2010\n 9:24 AM, James\n Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n There's that thing\n about only God\n being creator.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n How is that relevant\n here? Do you prefer\n that people use\n \"assemble\"\n instead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n It's relevant because a\n race that creates a\n (slave) race is\n usurping\n the privilege of the\n Creator -- is in fact\n acting in daemonic\n manner.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T13:40:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When you die, why are you going to die?\n\nDeath happens.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks.\n\nObviously, the effect of Tzadkiel's actions is the coming of the New Sun\nand\nthe drowning of Urth. Lots and lots of people die in this, maybe for a\nredemptive higher meaning and maybe not. Under 1), we can be quite\nconfident that the slaughter was authorized by God, like the Flood or the\napocalypse, and therefore moral, at least by the author's lights (the\nreader's mileage may vary.) Under 2), the massacring of Urth is no less\nthan genocide. Under 3), it may be either--a clumsy attempt by incredibly\npowerful but fallible beings to enact what they understand to be the\ndivine\nwill.\n\nI think 3) maybe makes for the best story. But with 2), there's the\npossibility of something else going on behind the scenes--maybe over the\ncourse of the next seven books--redeeming the act of evil. That would be\na\npretty great story.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.\n\nUnder #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel\njust\nas lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly more\nconnected.\n\nOne can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good\nintentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to\nthe\ndeity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more damage.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in\nChristian\nand Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible separation\nbetween angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have\nbeen\npossible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations\nof\nwhat this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it\ncould mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant\ncommunication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various\nerrors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or\ncommit\nacts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule\non\none occasion).\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting \"more or less\" and\n using the words \"infallible\" and \"definitely in direct contact.\"\n That would be more distinct.\n\n As I understand it.\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n There is no meaningful difference between one and three.\n\n .\n\n\n\n Right.\n\n Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents\n himself not as\n the\n Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important\n question of the\n series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in\n fact three\n options:\n\n 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less\n in direct\n contact\n with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be\n completely trusted and\n is\n a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.\n The\n pretentions\n of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n 3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense\n but remains\n metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in\n \"The Cock and\n the\n Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do\n its will is\n sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best\n he/she can, but\n like\n the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and\n infinitely removed\n from\n the mind of the Increate.\n\n I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\n On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n >wrote:\n\n\n\n\n No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a\n general theoretical\n observation.\n\n brunians at brunians.org \n\n wrote:\n\n\n Who usurping where?\n\n Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?\n Tzadkiel?\n\n I don't think so.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n No, the definition of usurping demands it. So\n does the concept of a\n local archon pretending to be the Outsider.\n You can explain it any way\n you want, but that's the concept.\n\n Think Tolkien.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n Maybe for you.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n The question, then, is whether such\n delegation occurred---or not.\n\n brunians at brunians.org\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n I don't buy it.\n\n God delegates all the time.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Precisely.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at\n 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson\n >\n\n wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n Jeff Wilson wrote\n (30-06-2010 16:04):\n\n\n\n\n\n\n On 6/30/2010\n 9:24 AM, James\n Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n There's that thing\n about only God\n being creator.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n How is that relevant\n here? Do you prefer\n that people use\n \"assemble\"\n instead of \"create\"?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n It's relevant because a\n race that creates a\n (slave) race is\n usurping\n the privilege of the\n Creator -- is in fact\n acting in daemonic\n manner.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CAE17.8020407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:02:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C8246.4000506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/2010 6:55 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nJeff, no one said pulp covers were more inspirational than photos.\n\nBut if you eliminate Apollo 11 photos and Alan Bean, what's left?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A composite of iconic images, as you speculated. The Apollo 11 photo of \nBuzz saluting the flag has the grey regolith and the gold visor as well, \nbut it was earlier Apollo 8 orbital photos that show the earth rising \nover the lunar horizon that were hugely popularized. Some of the Apollo \n11 photos do show the earth in the sky, but not terribly prominently. \nIIRC, Van Gogh was known to have put Ursa Major above southern-looking \nEuropean landscapes; no reason some unborn master yet to paint couldn't \ndo the same for Neil and Buzz." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CB072.20808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:12:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2C2011.9060307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 11:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I\ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a picture, maybe an illustration --a famous one-- that I\nremember from my childhood.\nAn astronaut on the moon. The Earth over his shoulder. The American flag\nbehind him or beside him. I thought that was the one when I read the\ndescription." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"man on the moon\" shot shows Buzz Aldrin's gold faceplate reflecting \nNeil Armstrong with the Earth over *his* shoulder, but no flag is up \nyet, though there is a prominent flag patch on Buzz's left shoulder." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2dc2f9da5b8a851b52b3d871d3ac10ee.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:14:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB072.20808@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 11:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I\ncould find, when I went looking a few years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a picture, maybe an illustration --a famous one-- that I\nremember from my childhood.\nAn astronaut on the moon. The Earth over his shoulder. The American flag\nbehind him or beside him. I thought that was the one when I read the\ndescription." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"man on the moon\" shot shows Buzz Aldrin's gold faceplate reflecting\nNeil Armstrong with the Earth over *his* shoulder, but no flag is up\nyet, though there is a prominent flag patch on Buzz's left shoulder.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CB0C2.3010607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:14:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 13:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there are in fact three options:\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely\ntrusted and is a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely\nremoved from the mind of the Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Afaict 1 and 3 are just points in a continuum. Unless you push 1 further and \nmake it so that Tzadkiel has no will at all but God's will. In that case \nTzadkiel would not be a free agent but merely an extension of God. Not \nexactly the same as an angel. I don't think Tzadkiel is such an extension, \nso between 1 and 3 I think only 3, which is really more or less the same as \nthe lesser sense of 1, works. It is just open to debate how fallible \nTzadkiel is.\n\nThe Valar try not to commit evil because they're good, not because they're \nbound to Eru's will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\nI go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n- If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in which:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all and is \ndoing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking, better \npeople than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n- If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an unfathomable \nbeing as Tzadkiel evil?\n\nKeeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning for, \nit just means they're done with the best of intentions and knowledge. We \nhave a saying here, 'Of [people with] good intentions is Hell full'.\n\nAntonio" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:31:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB0C2.3010607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to blame God\nfor their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n- If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in which:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all and is\ndoing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking, better\npeople than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n- If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an unfathomable\nbeing as Tzadkiel evil?\n\nKeeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning\nfor, it just means they're done with the best of intentions and knowledge.\nWe have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good intentions is Hell full'.\n\nAntonio\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CB531.1070203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:33:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/2010 8:24 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nThanks.\nObviously, the effect of Tzadkiel's actions is the coming of the New Sun\nand the drowning of Urth. Lots and lots of people die in this, maybe\nfor a redemptive higher meaning and maybe not. Under 1), we can be\nquite confident that the slaughter was authorized by God, like the Flood\nor the apocalypse, and therefore moral, at least by the author's lights\n(the reader's mileage may vary.) Under 2), the massacring of Urth is no\nless than genocide. Under 3), it may be either--a clumsy attempt by\nincredibly powerful but fallible beings to enact what they understand to\nbe the divine will.\nI think 3) maybe makes for the best story. But with 2), there's the\npossibility of something else going on behind the scenes--maybe over the\ncourse of the next seven books--redeeming the act of evil. That would\nbe a pretty great story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzad cops to #3 although he has the luxury not only of seeing how the \nmachinaitons turn out from his perch in Yesod, but of potentially being \nable to undo any changes that turn out to suck more rather than less. \nAnd arguably, any deaths the Yesodis \"cause\" have already happened to \nlong-dead Urthlings and they're just rearranging the details, or even \nsaving some from having to suffer in that vale of tears to begin with." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CB798.3080009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T15:43:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early \nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to blame\nGod for their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in which:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all\n and is doing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking,\n better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of intentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\n Antonio\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<2dc2f9da5b8a851b52b3d871d3ac10ee.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:\nDid you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5dc7b476dce0a5168090b8fff6611342.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB0C2.3010607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Archangels are just angels who have cleared away more of their ego.\n\nThere no God where I is.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 13:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there are in fact three options:\n1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct\ncontact with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely\ntrusted and is a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.\n3) Tzadkiel is a \"higher\" being in some meaningful sense but remains\nmetaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in \"The Cock and\nthe Angel.\" His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is\nsincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but\nlike the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely\nremoved from the mind of the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Afaict 1 and 3 are just points in a continuum. Unless you push 1 further\nand\nmake it so that Tzadkiel has no will at all but God's will. In that case\nTzadkiel would not be a free agent but merely an extension of God. Not\nexactly the same as an angel. I don't think Tzadkiel is such an extension,\nso between 1 and 3 I think only 3, which is really more or less the same\nas\nthe lesser sense of 1, works. It is just open to debate how fallible\nTzadkiel is.\n\nThe Valar try not to commit evil because they're good, not because they're\nbound to Eru's will.\n\n > 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\n > pretentions of religion are a means of controlling the human race.\n > I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.\n\nOption 2 I think is untenable.\n\n- If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in which:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all and is\ndoing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking, better\npeople than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n- If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an unfathomable\nbeing as Tzadkiel evil?\n\nKeeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning\nfor,\nit just means they're done with the best of intentions and knowledge. We\nhave a saying here, 'Of [people with] good intentions is Hell full'.\n\nAntonio\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49c319a65ea52f8bf92c954f09bd798e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:12:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are they?\n\nTzadkiel is a hierodule?\n\nAre you sure?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to blame\nGod\nfor their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n- If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in which:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all and is\ndoing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking, better\npeople than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n- If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\nunfathomable\nbeing as Tzadkiel evil?\n\nKeeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning\nfor, it just means they're done with the best of intentions and\nknowledge.\nWe have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good intentions is Hell full'.\n\nAntonio\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CBF0D.7010108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:15:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB798.3080009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/2010 10:43 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early\nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Preach it, Brother Ant?nio!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51e717b6635d7c586255898bf2ba5d61.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:16:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB798.3080009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early\nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to blame\nGod for their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques >\n\n Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in\nwhich:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all\n and is doing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking,\n better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of intentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\n Antonio\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a4c459d00e6bfae603d8d424a281478.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:21:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better be\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:37:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<1a4c459d00e6bfae603d8d424a281478.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:\nNext time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better be\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<64a5f0ccd7ad8135cc880d55f01d35d7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Take my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better be\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CC5FB.4090304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:44:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<64a5f0ccd7ad8135cc880d55f01d35d7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know *how* to take this discourse at all.\nI had no idea that \"pedant\" was an insult around here.\nI thought that was what we were all striving for.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Take my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better be\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<65fa45fb235122f7a2217875a2e6addb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T16:54:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CC5FB.4090304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be what you are striving for.\n\nIt may not be an insult to you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know *how* to take this discourse at all.\nI had no idea that \"pedant\" was an insult around here.\nI thought that was what we were all striving for.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Take my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better\nbe\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:08:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<51e717b6635d7c586255898bf2ba5d61.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM, wrote:\nHe appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\n." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. I believe that the Hierogrammates were artificially bred by the\nHieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early\nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to blame\nGod for their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques > >\n\n Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in\nwhich:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all\n and is doing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking,\n better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of intentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\n Antonio\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CCC61.8030304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:12:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:08):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM, > wrote:\n\n He appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\n .\n\nNo. I believe that the Hierogrammates were artificially bred by the\nHieros." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the point I brought up is independent of whether the evil power was \ncreated by God or bred by whoever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early\n > afternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n >\n > John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):\n >> Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult\n to blame\n >> God for their control over the universe.\n >>\n >> 2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques \n >> >>\n >>\n >> Option 2 I think is untenable.\n >>\n >> - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in\n >> which:\n >> + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n >> + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil\n at all\n >> and is doing God's work\n >> + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking,\n >> better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n >>\n >> - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n >> unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n >>\n >> Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n >> atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\n intentions\n >> and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n >> intentions is Hell full'.\n >>\n >> Antonio\n >>\n >> _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:22:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CCC61.8030304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:08):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the point I brought up is independent of whether the evil power was\ncreated by God or bred by whoever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it? I dunno. I think the existence of, say, hurricanes, or the bubonic\nplague, is potentially more troubling from a theodicy standpoint than the\npossibility that the free will of hman beings might create monstrous\ndemigods as the Hierogrammates under Scenario 2 are. Anyway I rather doubt\nthat the author would agree that the existence of such beings is\ninconsistent with the existence of a traditionally-understood God.\n\nRegardless, we are getting afield of the question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's\nearly\n > afternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " >\n > John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):\n >> Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult\n to blame\n >> God for their control over the universe.\n >>\n >> 2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques \n >> >>\n\n >>\n >> Option 2 I think is untenable.\n >>\n >> - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe\nin\n >> which:\n >> + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n >> + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil\n at all\n >> and is doing God's work\n >> + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally\nspeaking,\n >> better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n >>\n >> - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n >> unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n >>\n >> Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n >> atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\n intentions\n >> and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n >> intentions is Hell full'.\n >>\n >> Antonio\n >>\n >> _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:33:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<64a5f0ccd7ad8135cc880d55f01d35d7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm taking them to heart. The question is, whether to take them to the\nHayfork police. Making threats on the internet is illegal, you know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:41 AM, wrote:\nTake my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better be\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<65fa45fb235122f7a2217875a2e6addb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving pedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator 'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and earthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg\n\nThough I would guess it is a composite as depicted in an oil painting created by an artist of Urth, about Earth, before the moon got all forested up.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 1, 2010, at 12:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt may be what you are striving for.\n\nIt may not be an insult to you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know *how* to take this discourse at all.\nI had no idea that \"pedant\" was an insult around here.\nI thought that was what we were all striving for.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Take my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better\nbe\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CD300.6040809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:40:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " He appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\nNo. I believe that the Hierogrammates were artificially bred by the \nHieros." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that Apheta said the Hierogrammates were made by the \nHieros, the humans of a previous mantanvara.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T17:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The internet, as we all know, is serious business.\nNow let's all put our sabers away and get back to talking about how Agia is\nan Inhumu-robot-Hierodule, and Severian is actually a character from a\nwholly different Wolfe book because how kewl would that be.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'm taking them to heart. The question is, whether to take them to the\nHayfork police. Making threats on the internet is illegal, you know.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:41 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Take my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth better\nbe\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CD8E7.4010407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T18:05:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:08):\n\n\n\n But the point I brought up is independent of whether the evil\n power was created by God or bred by whoever.\n\nIs it? I dunno. I think the existence of, say, hurricanes, or the\nbubonic plague, is potentially more troubling from a theodicy standpoint\nthan the possibility that the free will of hman beings might create\nmonstrous demigods as the Hierogrammates under Scenario 2 are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Natural disasters aren't ever considered benign. They may be considered part \nof some higher purpose, but that's not what we're discussing here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway I\nrather doubt that the author would agree that the existence of such\nbeings is inconsistent with the existence of a traditionally-understood God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and is seen as \ndoing God's will is consistent with the existence of a benign God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regardless, we are getting afield of the question.\n\n > I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe\n it's early\n > afternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n >\n > John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):\n >> Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult\n to blame\n >> God for their control over the universe.\n >>\n >> 2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques \n >\n >> \n >>>\n\n >>\n >> Option 2 I think is untenable.\n >>\n >> - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a\n universe in\n >> which:\n >> + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n >> + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil\n at all\n >> and is doing God's work\n >> + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally\n speaking,\n >> better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n >>\n >> - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call\n such an\n >> unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n >>\n >> Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel\n need no\n >> atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\n intentions\n >> and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n >> intentions is Hell full'.\n >>\n >> Antonio\n >>\n >> _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T18:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CD8E7.4010407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\\" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and is seen as\ndoing God's will is consistent with the existence of a benign God?\n\nIt's the premise of Gnosticism, isn't it? And arguably of Christianity,\njust on a grander scale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Regardless, we are getting afield of the question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " > I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe\n it's early\n > afternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n >\n > John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):\n >> Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult\n to blame\n >> God for their control over the universe.\n >>\n >> 2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques \n >\n >> \n >>>\n\n >>\n >> Option 2 I think is untenable.\n >>\n >> - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a\n universe in\n >> which:\n >> + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n >> + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil\n at all\n >> and is doing God's work\n >> + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally\n speaking,\n >> better people than the others, and in fact seem to be\nworse.\n >>\n >> - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call\n such an\n >> unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n >>\n >> Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel\n need no\n >> atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\n intentions\n >> and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with]\ngood\n >> intentions is Hell full'.\n >>\n >> Antonio\n >>\n >> _______________________________________________\n >> Urth Mailing List\n >> To post, write urth at urth.net \n >\n \n >>" } ] }, { "message_id": "<599015.23016.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T19:06:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB0C2.3010607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n\nJohn Watkins wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions of religion are a means of controlling the human race." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Option 2 I think is untenable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- If God is good, then it makes no \nsense to create a universe in which:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n+ God's creatures believe that the \nevil power is not evil at all and is doing God's work\n+ those " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking, better people \nthan the others, and in fact seem" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to be worse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hasn't this been the situation in many dictatorships, especially \ntheocratic ones? In Europe when and where the Inquisition flourished?\n\nI agree with those who say this theodicy is no worse than the one \nChristians face in the real world.\n\nAnd what about /The Wizard Knight/? The Aelf could be toys in the hands of evil humans if the humans realized it, just as humans sometimes are \nfor Lothur. (But then the whole non-Christian deism of TWK is strange. Humans seem to be at the bottom instead of in the middle.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an \nunfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Keeping option 3 " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning for, it just \nmeans they're done with" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the best of intentions and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of \n[people with] good intentions is Hell full'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In English, \"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.\"\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CE80E.4030909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T19:10:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 19:09):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):\n\n A universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and is\n seen as doing God's will is consistent with the existence of a\n benign God?\n\nIt's the premise of Gnosticism, isn't it? And arguably of Christianity,\njust on a grander scale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you elaborate?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CEA84.5050006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T19:20:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<599015.23016.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (01-07-2010 20:06):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The\npretentions of religion are a means of controlling the human race." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Option 2 I think is untenable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in which:\n+ God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n+ God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at all and is doing God's work\n+ those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking, better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hasn't this been the situation in many dictatorships, especially\ntheocratic ones? In Europe when and where the Inquisition flourished?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. I think it's very different if nothing else in terms of \nscale. You can hardly say the Inquisition had domain over the Universe, and \nwhatever power dictatorships have is transient. Granted, sometimes evil can \nestablish itself as the moral referent - cf. 'Stockholm's syndrome' - but so \nfar, that I've seen, only in limited scale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with those who say this theodicy is no worse than the one\nChristians face in the real world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the real world saw triumph of Evil perceived as Good in most parts and \nfor most of the time, I'd agree. But I don't see the world that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what about /The Wizard Knight/? The Aelf could be toys in the hands of evil humans if the humans realized it, just as humans sometimes are\nfor Lothur. (But then the whole non-Christian deism of TWK is strange. Humans seem to be at the bottom instead of in the middle.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I should disclose that I haven't read TWK yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\nunfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Keeping option 3\ndoesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning for, it just\nmeans they're done with\nthe best of intentions and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of\n[people with] good intentions is Hell full'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In English, \"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somehow I never remember that.\n\nStill haven't had the time to answer to your reply on Agia." } ] }, { "message_id": "<01ae01cb1956$b6350140$76cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T19:50:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is probably a futile attempt to drag this discussion back to what Wolfe\nactually wrote, but I am going to do it anyway.\n\nWhat has gotten lost is the truth of what Dan'l and John Watkins alluded to.\nI invite anyone who doesn't understand or doesn't remember the \"The Key to\nthe Universe\" chapter (XXXIV) of CITADEL to read it again. (There is more on\nthe topic in URTH.) It contains a summary of Severian's understanding.\n\nThis is the gist. The human beings of the First Empire formed (that is the\nverb used) a new race of beings. The new beings were cruelly fashioned from\nlesser beings (less than humans). The end result was the race we know as the\nHierogrammates. The cruel humans who formed them were the Hieros.\n\nThat much is straightforward. Here is where the subject turns tricky and\nleads some to question the motives and moral authority of the\nHierogrammates. (Peter Wright comes to mind.)\n\n\"However it may be, they [the Hierogrammates] shape us now as they\nthemselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their revenge.\n \"The Hierodules they have found too, and formed more quickly, to serve\nthem in this universe.\"\n\nThese are the textual facts, as Severian understood them. The Hierogrammates\nare doing unto human beings much the same thing that humans had done unto\nthem. They also tinkered with some sort of beings to form their holy slaves.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<01df01cb1959$3e7c2c20$76cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CCC61.8030304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correction. I wrote:\nThis is the gist. The human beings of the First Empire . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should not have said human beings of the First Empire, which was earlier\nin Severian's universe. That should have been \"The human beings of a\nprevious universe . . .\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:27:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And you believe this because ...\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. I believe that the Hierogrammates were artificially bred by the\nHieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early\nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to\nblame\nGod for their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques > >\n\n Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in\nwhich:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at\nall\n and is doing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking,\n better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\nintentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\n Antonio\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:28:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CE80E.4030909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 19:09):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques ", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:28:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have made no threats.\n\nDo what you feel you should do.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:29:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so.\n\nWhy would it?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg\n\nThough I would guess it is a composite as depicted in an oil painting\ncreated by an artist of Urth, about Earth, before the moon got all\nforested up.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 1, 2010, at 12:54 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It may be what you are striving for.\n\nIt may not be an insult to you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't know *how* to take this discourse at all.\nI had no idea that \"pedant\" was an insult around here.\nI thought that was what we were all striving for.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Take my words to heart, Dan'l.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Josh, someone who insists on medieval definitions of words like\n\"planet\" _is_ a pedant.\n\nIf you find that offensive, look in the mirror.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:21 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Next time I meet you, Dan'l, the first words out of your mouth\nbetter\nbe\nan apology.\n\nDon't take this as a joke.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Did you guys set out to be pedants?\n\nIf no, how did it happen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Coff. Coff.\n\nPot.\n\nKettle.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:31:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:27 PM, wrote:\nAnd you believe this because ...\n\n\nBecause, as James and Roy have pointed out, it is what the text says about\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. I believe that the Hierogrammates were artificially bred by the\nHieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's early\nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to\nblame\nGod for their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques > >\n\n Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe in\nwhich:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at\nall\n and is doing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally speaking,\n better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\nintentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\n Antonio\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2CFBB2.1030802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:33:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "<599015.23016.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And what about/The Wizard Knight/? The Aelf could be toys in the hands of evil humans if the humans realized it, just as humans sometimes are\nfor Lothur. (But then the whole non-Christian deism of TWK is strange. Humans seem to be at the bottom instead of in the middle.)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that was the point. Human degeneracy had caused them to be \nenslaved by their lowest instincts. Humanity ought to have been seeking \nto serve the ideals of Valfather and then Michael's and then discover \nthe ideals that are even higher still.\n\nDue to their enslavement to Arnthor (a dragon in disguise from a realm \ntwo levels lower), even Aelfrice (representing lower instincts but \nhigher than those that had enslaved humanity) was also enslaved by those \ninstincts and hence rebelled -- because humans had relinquished the \nideals necessary to hold the beings of Aelfrice in awe.\n\nThis is a picture of a man with his priorities upside down. TWK might \nwell be viewed as the most moralistic novel Wolfe has ever written. The \nfollowing is a key scene: Valfather bowing before Michael, as Michael \ntells Abel that to be a knight he must be able to command Disiri with \nthe same authority.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2f30fbd5a3a27e7dc6ecfa03e5360763.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-01T20:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was confused.\n\nThat's right.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:27 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And you believe this because ...\n\n\nBecause, as James and Roy have pointed out, it is what the text says\nabout\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He appears to believe that Tzadkiel is a hierodule.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No. I believe that the Hierogrammates were artificially bred by the\nHieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I honestly think top-posting usually isn't helpful - maybe it's\nearly\nafternoon drowsiness but I can't grasp your point.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 16:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Tdazkiel's people are themselves artificial...awfully difficult to\nblame\nGod for their control over the universe.\n\n2010/7/1 Ant??nio Pedro Marques > >\n\n Option 2 I think is untenable.\n\n - If God is good, then it makes no sense to create a universe\nin\nwhich:\n + God's creatures are toys in an evil power's hands\n + God's creatures believe that the evil power is not evil at\nall\n and is doing God's work\n + those who oppose the evil power are not, generally\nspeaking,\n better people than the others, and in fact seem to be worse.\n\n - If God isn't good then by what standard can we call such an\n unfathomable being as Tzadkiel evil?\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need\nno\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of\nintentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\n Antonio\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9A2CE6160D204CE99FB75FE7A2F13D39@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-01T21:05:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " 2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n\n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of intentions and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good intentions is Hell full'.\nA common saying in English is \"the road to Hell is paved with good intentions\".\n\nHowever, In Wolfe's short 'The Last Thrilling Wonder Story', this is denied by one who should know:\n\n\nLuciifer smiled at it. \"That will not break my pavements,\" he said. \"Despite so many wild rumours, they are not laid of good intentiona - which are, in my experience, quite easily broken\".\n\n\nOf course he could be lying. He does that.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D1C23.6060102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T22:52:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\n2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 19:09):\n\n 2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):\n\n A universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and is\n seen as doing God's will is consistent with the existence of a\n benign God?\n\n It's the premise of Gnosticism, isn't it? And arguably of\n Christianity,\n just on a grander scale.\n\n\n Could you elaborate?\n\nYes. Gnosticism posits that \"the world\" is the creation of the\ndemiurge, a debased being posing as the true God, but that a benign God\nstill exists and calls for our loyalty. Gnostic Christianity (or\nGnosticism proper) posits that Jesus Christ was a sort of messenger from\nthe true God, preaching a rejection of the demiurge. Orthodox\nChristianity refers at times to the Devil as \"the lord of [the/this]\nworld,\" with much the same significance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what they consider is that the demiurge is antagonistic to God. They do \nnot consider the demiurge to be God, and those who they see worshipping God \nare not worshipping what they consider as the demiurge. So I think the \nparallel fails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy for a literalization of this kind of\ncosmology. There, Satan is the local ruler--the planetary genius of\nEarth--and the true God is the ruler of the universe, from whom Satan\noriginally had authority in fiefdom, but against whom Satan has\nrebelled. Of course, the scale is different from the 2) hypothetical\n(planet versus universe), but from the perspective of Earth there's very\nlittle different.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D1F62.2090205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T23:06:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D1C23.6060102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 19:09):\n\n2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):\n\nA universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and is\nseen as doing God's will is consistent with the existence of a\nbenign God?\n\nIt's the premise of Gnosticism, isn't it? And arguably of\nChristianity,\njust on a grander scale.\n\n\nCould you elaborate?\n\nYes. Gnosticism posits that \"the world\" is the creation of the\ndemiurge, a debased being posing as the true God, but that a benign God\nstill exists and calls for our loyalty. Gnostic Christianity (or\nGnosticism proper) posits that Jesus Christ was a sort of messenger from\nthe true God, preaching a rejection of the demiurge. Orthodox\nChristianity refers at times to the Devil as \"the lord of [the/this]\nworld,\" with much the same significance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what they consider is that the demiurge is antagonistic to God. They\ndo not consider the demiurge to be God, and those who they see\nworshipping God are not worshipping what they consider as the demiurge.\nSo I think the parallel fails." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean, it's not the parallel between BNS and gnostic christianity that \nfails, it's the parallel to a BNS in which an evil Tazdkiel had wide moral \ncontrol over mankind, such that those who opposed him were of dubious moral \nstature, that does. For such is the option offered by 2 - it hypothesizes \nthat Tzadkiel is evil (let's not go to Machen's The White People's \nprologue), but it doesn't remove the fact that those who serve and revere \nhim tend to be good, whereas those who oppose him tend a bit to the thug \nside - at least if I remember the text (put aside the ones who were merely \nfighting for their lives)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T23:07:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D1C23.6060102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is mistaken. The Gnostic posits that the demiurge is in fact the\nGod of the Old Testament; while it's at least consistent with\nChristianity to posit that the gods worshipped by various pagans are\nidentifiable with devils." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 19:09):\n\n 2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n John Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):\n\n A universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and\nis\n seen as doing God's will is consistent with the existence of a\n benign God?\n\n It's the premise of Gnosticism, isn't it? And arguably of\n Christianity,\n just on a grander scale.\n\n\n Could you elaborate?\n\nYes. Gnosticism posits that \"the world\" is the creation of the\ndemiurge, a debased being posing as the true God, but that a benign God\nstill exists and calls for our loyalty. Gnostic Christianity (or\nGnosticism proper) posits that Jesus Christ was a sort of messenger from\nthe true God, preaching a rejection of the demiurge. Orthodox\nChristianity refers at times to the Devil as \"the lord of [the/this]\nworld,\" with much the same significance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what they consider is that the demiurge is antagonistic to God. They do\nnot consider the demiurge to be God, and those who they see worshipping God\nare not worshipping what they consider as the demiurge. So I think the\nparallel fails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "See C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy for a literalization of this kind of\ncosmology. There, Satan is the local ruler--the planetary genius of\nEarth--and the true God is the ruler of the universe, from whom Satan\noriginally had authority in fiefdom, but against whom Satan has\nrebelled. Of course, the scale is different from the 2) hypothetical\n(planet versus universe), but from the perspective of Earth there's very\nlittle different.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T23:11:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D1F62.2090205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I\"m confused by this too.\n\nCertainly Pas is evil. Certainly many of his servants (Silk) are good.\nAnd of those servants who aren't very good, they tend to be improved\nby greater service (Incus). Wolfe seems to believe and in fact very\nnearly states in canon that good service to even a false god is\nsanctifying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 19:09):\n\n2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nJohn Watkins wrote (01-07-2010 18:22):\n\nA universe under the dominion of an evil being that poses and is\nseen as doing God's will is consistent with the existence of a\nbenign God?\n\nIt's the premise of Gnosticism, isn't it? And arguably of\nChristianity,\njust on a grander scale.\n\n\nCould you elaborate?\n\nYes. Gnosticism posits that \"the world\" is the creation of the\ndemiurge, a debased being posing as the true God, but that a benign God\nstill exists and calls for our loyalty. Gnostic Christianity (or\nGnosticism proper) posits that Jesus Christ was a sort of messenger from\nthe true God, preaching a rejection of the demiurge. Orthodox\nChristianity refers at times to the Devil as \"the lord of [the/this]\nworld,\" with much the same significance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But what they consider is that the demiurge is antagonistic to God. They\ndo not consider the demiurge to be God, and those who they see\nworshipping God are not worshipping what they consider as the demiurge.\nSo I think the parallel fails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, it's not the parallel between BNS and gnostic christianity that\nfails, it's the parallel to a BNS in which an evil Tazdkiel had wide moral\ncontrol over mankind, such that those who opposed him were of dubious moral\nstature, that does. For such is the option offered by 2 - it hypothesizes\nthat Tzadkiel is evil (let's not go to Machen's The White People's\nprologue), but it doesn't remove the fact that those who serve and revere\nhim tend to be good, whereas those who oppose him tend a bit to the thug\nside - at least if I remember the text (put aside the ones who were merely\nfighting for their lives).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D20E5.40709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T23:12:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Gnosticism posits that \"the world\" is the creation of the \ndemiurge, a debased being posing as the true God, but that a benign \nGod still exists and calls for our loyalty. Gnostic Christianity (or \nGnosticism proper) posits that Jesus Christ was a sort of messenger \nfrom the true God, preaching a rejection of the demiurge. Orthodox \nChristianity refers at times to the Devil as \"the lord of [the/this] \nworld,\" with much the same significance.\nSee C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy for a literalization of this kind of \ncosmology. There, Satan is the local ruler--the planetary genius of \nEarth--and the true God is the ruler of the universe, from whom Satan \noriginally had authority in fiefdom, but against whom Satan has \nrebelled. Of course, the scale is different from the 2) hypothetical \n(planet versus universe), but from the perspective of Earth there's \nvery little different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At risk of seeming pedantic, Lewis' cosmology is a little different from \nthe Gnostic version. In the Gnostic version, the demiurge (or just as \noften, the demiurges) is the genuine Creator. But because he is \nimperfect, --not the Increate-- the world is imperfect.\n\nIn Lewis' version, the Satan is, as you say, a local administrator in \nrevolt.\n\nIncidentally, I really like the idea in That Hideous Strength in which \nthe Earth-facing side of the moon was blasted into a wasteland during \nthe war between the Revolutionaries and the Loyalists, but the \"Dark \nSide\" (which at the time of writing had never been seen) was covered in \nidyllic forests, and was in Loyalist territory.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D25EC.9050305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T23:34:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nThis is mistaken. The Gnostic posits that the demiurge is in fact the\nGod of the Old Testament;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only the jews, a very small part of the world's population, worshipped the \nGod of the OT as such, and they certainly went to end talking about his \nwrath, jealousy and favouritisms, which aren't exactly benign traits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "while it's at least consistent with\nChristianity to posit that the gods worshipped by various pagans are\nidentifiable with devils." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Angelic beings, fallen or not, not necessarily devils.\nBut how many pagan gods considered evil by christians were not considered \nevil by their own worshippers? Many deities were worshipped out of fear. \nIt's one thing to give worship to, other to consider good.\nTo worship and consider good something which actually is evil raises the bar \nquite a bit." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D2A7E.4010607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T23:53:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI\"m confused by this too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused as to why you don't write your remarks below the part of the \nmessage whcih they address." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly Pas is evil. Certainly many of his servants (Silk) are good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I didn't say evil masters can't have good servants. I said that in the \nbooks, if Tzadkiel were evil, you'd have an evil master whose servants would \nbe better than his opponents - i.e., those who oppose the evil master are of \na quite lesser moral standing than those who serve him - and would actually \nconsider the master to be good. I don't recall Silk ever considering Pas \ngood, nor actually any of the Whorl gods. In fact, from what I recall, the \npeople in the Whorl are fed up with their gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And of those servants who aren't very good, they tend to be improved\nby greater service (Incus). Wolfe seems to believe and in fact very\nnearly states in canon that good service to even a false god is\nsanctifying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite sure, inasmuch as the false (here the issue is 'evil', not 'false') or \nevil god is also ultimately bound to God's plan for the world. It's not \nbecause of Pas's evilness that Auk or Incus improve (I'm not even certain \ntheir Incus shows much of an improvement, but that's another matter).\n\nWhat salvific elements are there in the Whorl's religion are due either to \nthe community's appropriation and improvement by serious reshaping \n(motivated by individual episodes of englightenment or not) of the basics \nthey were primed with, or whatever of the originals shows through the \ntransvestite. It's not from Scylla's demand of 50 children that the good \npeople of the Whorl got their morals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I mean, it's not the parallel between BNS and gnostic christianity that\nfails, it's the parallel to a BNS in which an evil Tazdkiel had wide moral\ncontrol over mankind, such that those who opposed him were of dubious moral\nstature, that does. For such is the option offered by 2 - it hypothesizes\nthat Tzadkiel is evil (let's not go to Machen's The White People's\nprologue), but it doesn't remove the fact that those who serve and revere\nhim tend to be good, whereas those who oppose him tend a bit to the thug\nside - at least if I remember the text (put aside the ones who were merely\nfighting for their lives)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D4747.6050009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T01:56:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<9B93F698-322E-49B8-AED9-395E5E7B1C61@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Links!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI found a similar image from a later Apollo image, though the painting is a painting, after all, and not a photograph (I don't think).\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jun 30, 2010, at 11:01 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 06/30/2010 09:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It occurred to me that Wolfe may have been inspired by an SF magazine cover rather than by a painting. I searched The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction and found a similar image:\n\nhttp://www.philsp.com/data/images/f/fantasy_and_science_fiction_197702.jpg \n\nAt least it has the gold faceplate and earth. Maybe Rudesind's painting is a composite?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's painting does not match any of the actual Apollo images I could find, when I went looking a few years ago.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D4815.5060101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T01:59:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CAE17.8020407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true. So perhaps this painting is not something Wolfe made up, \nbut rather a painting by a person he made up, in Borgesian fashion.\n\nEither way, it is a study in symbols/icons becoming more real than reality.\n\nUnless, of course, there IS a real model." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/1/2010 6:55 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff, no one said pulp covers were more inspirational than photos.\n\nBut if you eliminate Apollo 11 photos and Alan Bean, what's left?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A composite of iconic images, as you speculated. The Apollo 11 photo \nof Buzz saluting the flag has the grey regolith and the gold visor as \nwell, but it was earlier Apollo 8 orbital photos that show the earth \nrising over the lunar horizon that were hugely popularized. Some of \nthe Apollo 11 photos do show the earth in the sky, but not terribly \nprominently. IIRC, Van Gogh was known to have put Ursa Major above \nsouthern-looking European landscapes; no reason some unborn master yet \nto paint couldn't do the same for Neil and Buzz." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D490D.8090206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T02:03:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CB531.1070203@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you think the Yesodis are operating a time-travel \nhistorical-intervention scheme, from a perspective at the end of Urth's \nuniverse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/1/2010 8:24 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks.\nObviously, the effect of Tzadkiel's actions is the coming of the New Sun\nand the drowning of Urth. Lots and lots of people die in this, maybe\nfor a redemptive higher meaning and maybe not. Under 1), we can be\nquite confident that the slaughter was authorized by God, like the Flood\nor the apocalypse, and therefore moral, at least by the author's lights\n(the reader's mileage may vary.) Under 2), the massacring of Urth is no\nless than genocide. Under 3), it may be either--a clumsy attempt by\nincredibly powerful but fallible beings to enact what they understand to\nbe the divine will.\nI think 3) maybe makes for the best story. But with 2), there's the\npossibility of something else going on behind the scenes--maybe over the\ncourse of the next seven books--redeeming the act of evil. That would\nbe a pretty great story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tzad cops to #3 although he has the luxury not only of seeing how the \nmachinaitons turn out from his perch in Yesod, but of potentially \nbeing able to undo any changes that turn out to suck more rather than \nless. And arguably, any deaths the Yesodis \"cause\" have already \nhappened to long-dead Urthlings and they're just rearranging the \ndetails, or even saving some from having to suffer in that vale of \ntears to begin with." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D4AA7.90707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T02:10:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's it! Or very close." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWould logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving pedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator 'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and earthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg\n \n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T02:22:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D4AA7.90707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80e082d548cd62953cc58ba97ddefc59.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T02:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be pedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D5339.7040508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T02:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<80e082d548cd62953cc58ba97ddefc59.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in \nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough \npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when he \ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite \nwould satisfy him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be pedants.\n\nThere!\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D536C.3040105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T02:48:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D490D.8090206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/2010 9:03 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSo you think the Yesodis are operating a time-travel\nhistorical-intervention scheme, from a perspective at the end of Urth's\nuniverse?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many such, though the perspective might be more from above than from the \nchronological end. Yesod doesn't seem to follow Earth-Urth-Ushas in \ntime. In a a way, that would support the beneficence of the Yesodis, who \nin that case are helping this parallel or offshoot universe they have no \nstake in to avoid the sort of horrid durance that drove their forebears \noff of or out of the cycle of bangs and gnabs before they perfected \ntheir union with the Increate.\n\nThis can still be read cynically as the Yesodis experimenting on a \nserially unconnected universe so that they don't snuff it if they \naccidentally break the chain of causality by killing *everyone*, but I \nlike the tough love, Clarkean version better." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<78ba11f9be77829925b965e118940f94.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T03:03:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D5339.7040508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I repeat my apology.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when he\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be pedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D596B.1050705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T03:13:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D536C.3040105@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inclusive of such a perspective, I should have said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/1/2010 9:03 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you think the Yesodis are operating a time-travel\nhistorical-intervention scheme, from a perspective at the end of Urth's\nuniverse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many such, though the perspective might be more from above than from \nthe chronological end. Yesod doesn't seem to follow Earth-Urth-Ushas \nin time. In a a way, that would support the beneficence of the \nYesodis, who in that case are helping this parallel or offshoot \nuniverse they have no stake in to avoid the sort of horrid durance \nthat drove their forebears off of or out of the cycle of bangs and \ngnabs before they perfected their union with the Increate.\n\nThis can still be read cynically as the Yesodis experimenting on a \nserially unconnected universe so that they don't snuff it if they \naccidentally break the chain of causality by killing *everyone*, but I \nlike the tough love, Clarkean version better." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D5995.30801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T03:14:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<78ba11f9be77829925b965e118940f94.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can apologize all you want!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI repeat my apology.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when he\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be pedants.\n\nThere!\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T03:34:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D5995.30801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can apologize all you want!\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I repeat my apology.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when he\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be\npedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an\ninstigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5256A548-0D75-4262-AEB9-042DF0836D1D@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T04:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh,\n\nDo you really think this is any more pedantic than our Agia as robot discourse?\n\nI happened to find my virgin reading of that passage (about the astronaut) one of the first OH WOW! moments of the series. Because it was more clear than the propulsion chamber clue in revealing that we are in a distant future, but that the planet is OUR planet, Earth.\n\nI've, on more than one occasion, tried to find this image online. It's pretty fun to hunt for it. I don't think it's pedantic, however.\n\nThe talk of gnostic gods, and Zak's role as archangel or insectoid, and so forth really hurts my brain, though.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI know!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You can apologize all you want!\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I repeat my apology.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when he\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be\npedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an\ninstigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T04:26:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D4AA7.90707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, this is a better version of that image, hi-res:\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-134-20387HR.jpg\n\nIt's not the exact image from SotT, because Wolfe says the warrior is holding a staff.\n\nThe image is from the Apollo 17 mission, and the astronaut is Harrison \"Jack\" Schmitt, who has had a few quite awesome photos taken of him:\n\nhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_O_L1W8HmE8E/S8AIwQXNFVI/AAAAAAAABdE/jiK9msGVSlc/s1600/Jack+Schmitt.jpg\n\nhttp://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0012/lunarscape_apollo17_big.jpg\n\nhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AsL5s6RwTrk/Sc4F10aUY6I/AAAAAAAAB2s/LB-IOJ8LeEk/s1600/as17-140-21391.jpg\n\nhttp://hubblesite.org/explore_astronomy/skywatch/db/263/images/large.jpg\n\nhttp://www.airportjournals.com/Photos/0509/X/0509011_9.jpg\n\nhttp://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=harrison+jack+schmitt&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dharrison%2Bjack%2Bschmitt%26start%3D21%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Den%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1,isz:l&imgurl=245970a4d79b352c\n\nhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_04kZGR_ltmE/SskHoHLHHtI/AAAAAAAAExw/JWtP2ctZzoM/s1600/as17-134-20382.jpg\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:10 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of \"striving pedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an instigator 'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and earthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg\n \n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<40525459dfd2f89517f0e05cecefc3ea.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T04:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<5256A548-0D75-4262-AEB9-042DF0836D1D@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What you mean by this?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh,\n\nDo you really think this is any more pedantic than our Agia as robot\ndiscourse?\n\nI happened to find my virgin reading of that passage (about the astronaut)\none of the first OH WOW! moments of the series. Because it was more clear\nthan the propulsion chamber clue in revealing that we are in a distant\nfuture, but that the planet is OUR planet, Earth.\n\nI've, on more than one occasion, tried to find this image online. It's\npretty fun to hunt for it. I don't think it's pedantic, however.\n\nThe talk of gnostic gods, and Zak's role as archangel or insectoid, and so\nforth really hurts my brain, though.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 1, 2010, at 11:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You can apologize all you want!\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I repeat my apology.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really\ntough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when\nhe\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be\npedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an\ninstigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<82F6F0D0-BD60-4B7F-BBA7-2BFC450D594C@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T04:34:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<40525459dfd2f89517f0e05cecefc3ea.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I was reacting to this:\n\n\"I am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be pedants.\"\n\nAnd I sensed you were offended when Dan'l implied you were a pedant yourself, so didn't know where you decided to draw the line.\n\nI mean, is investigating the source of the astronaut painting any more pedantic than locating a sex doll who escaped a lemonwood box?\n\nNot a jibe, mind you, an honest curiosity.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 2, 2010, at 12:30 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhat you mean by this?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh,\n\nDo you really think this is any more pedantic than our Agia as robot\ndiscourse?\n\nI happened to find my virgin reading of that passage (about the astronaut)\none of the first OH WOW! moments of the series. Because it was more clear\nthan the propulsion chamber clue in revealing that we are in a distant\nfuture, but that the planet is OUR planet, Earth.\n\nI've, on more than one occasion, tried to find this image online. It's\npretty fun to hunt for it. I don't think it's pedantic, however.\n\nThe talk of gnostic gods, and Zak's role as archangel or insectoid, and so\nforth really hurts my brain, though.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 1, 2010, at 11:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I know!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You can apologize all you want!\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I repeat my apology.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really\ntough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up when\nhe\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be\npedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an\ninstigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape and\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D6FF2.4000805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T04:49:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D5339.7040508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/1/2010 9:47 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough\npaper and ink." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not think it matches the passage. To refresh:\n\n\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a\ndesolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a\nstrange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of\ngold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the\ndeathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more.\"\n\nand\n\n\"'...Today I took the notion to clean it again. And it needs it see how\nnice it's brightening up? There's your blue Urth coming over his\nshoulder again, fresh as the Autarch's fish.'\"\n\nand\n\n\"...'Is that the moon? I have been told it's more fertile.'\n\"'Now it is, yes. This was done before they got it irrigated. See that\ngray-brown? In those times, that's what you'd see if you looked up at\nher. Not green like she is now.'\"\n\n\nThe linked, autographed photo does not show a staff, and the visor \npointedly shows the flag and the sun more than the moonscape. The earth \nis above his head rather than either shoulder." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<645d78716be99f1d9239afe18f963009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T04:52:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<82F6F0D0-BD60-4B7F-BBA7-2BFC450D594C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was not offended.\n\nI was insulted.\n\nI'm mostly over it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I was reacting to this:\n\n\"I am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be pedants.\"\n\nAnd I sensed you were offended when Dan'l implied you were a pedant\nyourself, so didn't know where you decided to draw the line.\n\nI mean, is investigating the source of the astronaut painting any more\npedantic than locating a sex doll who escaped a lemonwood box?\n\nNot a jibe, mind you, an honest curiosity.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 2, 2010, at 12:30 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What you mean by this?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Josh,\n\nDo you really think this is any more pedantic than our Agia as robot\ndiscourse?\n\nI happened to find my virgin reading of that passage (about the\nastronaut)\none of the first OH WOW! moments of the series. Because it was more\nclear\nthan the propulsion chamber clue in revealing that we are in a distant\nfuture, but that the planet is OUR planet, Earth.\n\nI've, on more than one occasion, tried to find this image online. It's\npretty fun to hunt for it. I don't think it's pedantic, however.\n\nThe talk of gnostic gods, and Zak's role as archangel or insectoid, and\nso\nforth really hurts my brain, though.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 1, 2010, at 11:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I know!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You can apologize all you want!\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I repeat my apology.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo\nin\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really\ntough\npaper and ink.\n\nThe reason I believe this is that Wolfe does not make things up\nwhen\nhe\ncan construct them out of existing materials. No presumed composite\nwould satisfy him.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I can do this.\n\nI am very sorry that many of you are making great efforts to be\npedants.\n\nThere!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "How might such an apology be phrased?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "That's it! Or very close.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Would logic follow that you should apologize to the group of\n\"striving\npedants\" as well? I'm not offended, mind you, but I AM an\ninstigator\n'round these parts.\n\nOr was it the way he misspelled \"coff\" that bugged you?\n\nIn any case here's another image with visor, flag, landscape\nand\nearthrise:\n\nhttp://www.custodiansofhistory.com/images/Astro_GusCerway.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2786E1FF1E274030BED99C78986176B6@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-02T06:24:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"John Watkins\" \nCertainly Pas is evil. Certainly many of his servants (Silk) are good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And of those servants who aren't very good, they tend to be improved\nby greater service (Incus). Wolfe seems to believe and in fact very\nnearly states in canon that good service to even a false god is\nsanctifying.\n\nI'm not sure the concept 'Pas is evil' makes much real sense (we can posit \nthat Typhon was evil, but Typhon is not exactly Pas).\n\nPas is the creator of the Whorl, which has much good in it, even if, as Silk \nanimadverts towards the end of _TBotLS_ it also has much evil. And he seems \nto be doing his best for it, in his way.\n\nEvil is generally defined as being opposite to good, not as mere \nimperfection. The imperfect has evil within it, but it cannot reasonably be \ncosidered synonymous with evil.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<768fb0c7487e3280faa4c6d1eec20c72.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T06:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<2786E1FF1E274030BED99C78986176B6@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon was well motivated.\n\nI am sure that if you told him he was evil he would agree (megalomaniacal\nbut not exactly delusional, him), and point out that he did a lot of good\nthings, which he would proceed to list.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"John Watkins\" \nCertainly Pas is evil. Certainly many of his servants (Silk) are good.\nAnd of those servants who aren't very good, they tend to be improved\nby greater service (Incus). Wolfe seems to believe and in fact very\nnearly states in canon that good service to even a false god is\nsanctifying.\n\nI'm not sure the concept 'Pas is evil' makes much real sense (we can posit\nthat Typhon was evil, but Typhon is not exactly Pas).\n\nPas is the creator of the Whorl, which has much good in it, even if, as\nSilk\nanimadverts towards the end of _TBotLS_ it also has much evil. And he\nseems\nto be doing his best for it, in his way.\n\nEvil is generally defined as being opposite to good, not as mere\nimperfection. The imperfect has evil within it, but it cannot reasonably\nbe\ncosidered synonymous with evil.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D898D.8030907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T06:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, this is a better version of that image, hi-res:\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-134-20387HR.jpg\n\nIt's not the exact image from SotT, because Wolfe says the warrior is holding a staff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The uncropped version of this picture works fine I think. It would show \nthe flag on it's pole.\n\nOne of the arguments from the conspiracists that the moon landings were \nfaked is that their composition is perfect despite their cameras having \nno viewfinders. But the truth is that all the pictures were cropped.\n\nFull quote:\n\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a desolate\nlandscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a strange, stiff \nbanner.\nThe visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of gold, without eye slits or\nventilation; in its polished surface the deathly desert could be seen in\nreflection, and nothing more. [snip] 'There's your blue Urth coming over his\nshoulder again, fresh as the Autarch's fish.' \"\n\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DEFD0.7010805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T13:55:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D6FF2.4000805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for some \npoetic license as far as visor color and earth distance.\n\nAt any rate, we are closer to the image than we were the last time this \ncame up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/1/2010 9:47 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was referring to the photo in the link. I think that's the photo in\nRudesind's gallery, or a painting of it, or a printout on really tough\npaper and ink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not think it matches the passage. To refresh:\n\n\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a\ndesolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a\nstrange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of\ngold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the\ndeathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more.\"\n\nand\n\n\"'...Today I took the notion to clean it again. And it needs it see how\nnice it's brightening up? There's your blue Urth coming over his\nshoulder again, fresh as the Autarch's fish.'\"\n\nand\n\n\"...'Is that the moon? I have been told it's more fertile.'\n\"'Now it is, yes. This was done before they got it irrigated. See that\ngray-brown? In those times, that's what you'd see if you looked up at\nher. Not green like she is now.'\"\n\n\nThe linked, autographed photo does not show a staff, and the visor \npointedly shows the flag and the sun more than the moonscape. The \nearth is above his head rather than either shoulder." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DF032.10709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T13:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2D898D.8030907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may even show the armored figure's glove on the flagstaff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, this is a better version of that image, hi-res:\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-134-20387HR.jpg\n\nIt's not the exact image from SotT, because Wolfe says the warrior is \nholding a staff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The uncropped version of this picture works fine I think. It would \nshow the flag on it's pole.\n\nOne of the arguments from the conspiracists that the moon landings \nwere faked is that their composition is perfect despite their cameras \nhaving no viewfinders. But the truth is that all the pictures were \ncropped.\n\nFull quote:\n\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a \ndesolate\nlandscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a strange, stiff \nbanner.\nThe visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of gold, without eye \nslits or\nventilation; in its polished surface the deathly desert could be seen in\nreflection, and nothing more. [snip] 'There's your blue Urth coming \nover his\nshoulder again, fresh as the Autarch's fish.' \"\n\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DFD00.3050609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:51:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DEFD0.7010805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for \nsome poetic license as far as visor color and earth distance. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Maybe_ visor color since it is not \"entirely gold\". But there's no \nrequirement for Urth size is there?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DFD33.8000704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:52:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<82F6F0D0-BD60-4B7F-BBA7-2BFC450D594C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (02-07-2010 05:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 19, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 15, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 100701-1, 07/01/2010\n Tested on: 7/1/2010 10:30:22 PM\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\n http://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 100701-1, 07/01/2010\n Tested on: 7/1/2010 11:03:23 PM\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\n http://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DFDDB.6090201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DFD00.3050609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the passage doesn't say how far, small, or high Urth appears. But \neven in the best candidate it is almost over the astronaut's head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for \nsome poetic license as far as visor color and earth distance. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Maybe_ visor color since it is not \"entirely gold\". But there's no \nrequirement for Urth size is there?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100702-0, 07/02/2010\nTested on: 7/2/2010 10:52:35 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E023A.6000407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T15:14:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (02-07-2010 05:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, this is a better version of that image, hi-res:\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-134-20387HR.jpg" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I can see how the earth could be described as being over his shoulder\nand how the 'faceplate' seems to be made of gold. The staff can be imagined,\npart of a different crop, or introduced by restorers (not satisfactory, I know)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<134e79f06f8694f402217c24d4afd271.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T15:29:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DFD33.8000704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it looks so cool!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (02-07-2010 05:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 20, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 16, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 100701-1, 07/01/2010\n Tested on: 7/1/2010 10:30:22 PM\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\n http://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": " _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, writeurth at urth.net\n Subscription/information:http://www.urth.net\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 100701-1, 07/01/2010\n Tested on: 7/1/2010 11:03:23 PM\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\n http://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E0B7B.7000605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T15:53:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DFD00.3050609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 9:51 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for\nsome poetic license as far as visor color and earth distance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Maybe_ visor color since it is not \"entirely gold\". But there's no\nrequirement for Urth size is there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"entirely gold\" is meant to convey the entire visor is gold \ncolored, rather than merely a gold band across the eyes or some other \narrangement of detail. Speaking of the visor, if you click to show the \nfull resolution of the second image linked, you can see another \nastronaut (apparently Harrison Schmitt) rather than \"nothing more\".\n\nSchmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference \n\"*your* blue Urth\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E10F2.4000005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:16:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E0B7B.7000605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for\nsome poetic license as far as visor color and earth distance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_Maybe_ visor color since it is not \"entirely gold\". But there's no\nrequirement for Urth size is there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think \"entirely gold\" is meant to convey the entire visor is gold \ncolored, rather than merely a gold band across the eyes or some other \narrangement of detail." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take it to mean that the visor looked like it was made of gold. That \nworks for the picture.The black could readily be scene as part of the \nreflection on the visor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Speaking of the visor, if you click to show the full resolution of \nthe second image linked, you can see another astronaut (apparently \nHarrison Schmitt) rather than \"nothing more\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eh...I can see what might be an arm since I know what to look for.\n\nBut on reflection, it would have been pointless in this case to \nreference a single photo among the hundreds taken and illustrations \ncreated of the lunar landings. Wolfe described a picture that included \nthe important elements for us to identify the scene and context. We can \neasily imagine the scene based on his description.\n\nOn the other hand, what is Severian looking at when he sees \"a dancer \nwhose wings seemed leeches\"?\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E12BF.6050608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:24:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan astronaut cleaned\tby\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E0B7B.7000605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder.\n\nI suppose I should clarify that I think it's plain that \"visor of gold\" \ndoesn't mean that at all. It just needs to be dominated almost entirely \nby a solar/moonscape reflection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/2/2010 9:51 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for\nsome poetic license as far as visor color and earth distance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_Maybe_ visor color since it is not \"entirely gold\". But there's no\nrequirement for Urth size is there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think \"entirely gold\" is meant to convey the entire visor is gold \ncolored, rather than merely a gold band across the eyes or some other \narrangement of detail. Speaking of the visor, if you click to show \nthe full resolution of the second image linked, you can see another \nastronaut (apparently Harrison Schmitt) rather than \"nothing more\".\n\nSchmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference \n\"*your* blue Urth\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1439.9050700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E10F2.4000005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I've said, I can accept the composite theory if I must, but I have \nreason to doubt it. However, since it's supposedly a painting, there may \nbe a real painting or illustration that combines these elements and \ntherefore \"is\" the painting if Wolfe saw it---even if Rudesind's is a \ntotally different physical painting. All that is necessary is that \nsomewhere is a scene that fits the description---not that it be a \nphotograph.\n\nAnd I admit that what really motivates me is that I am sure I've seen it \nsomewhere!\n\nAre there any photos with the astronaut holding the flag?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's true that the figure holds the flag. But you have to allow for\nsome poetic license as far as visor color and earth distance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_Maybe_ visor color since it is not \"entirely gold\". But there's no\nrequirement for Urth size is there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think \"entirely gold\" is meant to convey the entire visor is gold \ncolored, rather than merely a gold band across the eyes or some other \narrangement of detail." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take it to mean that the visor looked like it was made of gold. That \nworks for the picture.The black could readily be scene as part of the \nreflection on the visor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Speaking of the visor, if you click to show the full resolution of \nthe second image linked, you can see another astronaut (apparently \nHarrison Schmitt) rather than \"nothing more\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh...I can see what might be an arm since I know what to look for.\n\nBut on reflection, it would have been pointless in this case to \nreference a single photo among the hundreds taken and illustrations \ncreated of the lunar landings. Wolfe described a picture that included \nthe important elements for us to identify the scene and context. We \ncan easily imagine the scene based on his description.\n\nOn the other hand, what is Severian looking at when he sees \"a dancer \nwhose wings seemed leeches\"?\n\nu+169b\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1461.2040702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:31:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DF032.10709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 8:57 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt may even show the armored figure's glove on the flagstaff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid not; the visor reflection also shows the other hand and the \nother astronaut well away from the flag." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah, this is a better version of that image, hi-res:\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-134-20387HR.jpg\n\nIt's not the exact image from SotT, because Wolfe says the warrior is\nholding a staff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The uncropped version of this picture works fine I think. It would\nshow the flag on it's pole.\n\nOne of the arguments from the conspiracists that the moon landings\nwere faked is that their composition is perfect despite their cameras\nhaving no viewfinders. But the truth is that all the pictures were\ncropped." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know about the suppressed transmission, of course? No? Oh, well, \nit's a covert operation between the United States government and the \nSoviet Union, it's been going on for over 50 years. We've been on the \nmoon since the '50s. We've been on Mars since '62, it was May 22nd." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E16C6.20201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1461.2040702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The uncropped version of this picture works fine I think. It would\nshow the flag on it's pole. One of the arguments from the \nconspiracists that the moon landings\nwere faked is that their composition is perfect despite their cameras\nhaving no viewfinders. But the truth is that all the pictures were\ncropped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know about the suppressed transmission, of course? No? Oh, well, \nit's a covert operation between the United States government and the \nSoviet Union, it's been going on for over 50 years. We've been on the \nmoon since the '50s. We've been on Mars since '62, it was May 22nd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a friend whose in-laws believe the moon landing was faked. He \nsaid once, \"The thing that gets me is...why do they think anyone would \ndo that?\"\n\nMy answer: \"Because it's fun to trick people. Who needs a reason?\"\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E16D0.6020903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:41:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1461.2040702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's another partial match, in which the astronaut holds the staff and \nhis visor is gold. The shadows could be cropped out.\n\nhttp://www.apolloarchive.com/apg_thumbnail.php?ptr=219&imageID=AS14-66-9232" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1AB2.1020703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1439.9050700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I admit that what really motivates me is that I am sure I've seen \nit somewhere! Are there any photos with the astronaut holding the flag? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did to. I even know exactly where I thought I'd seen it: It was in the \nbook \"We Came in Peace: The Story of Man in Space\". I had that volume \nas a child. But googling for the images from that book makes me think \nit's not there. And in the picture in my memory the astronaut is not \nactually _holding_ the flag.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1B1B.9060107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:00:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan astronaut cleaned\tby\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E12BF.6050608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (02-07-2010 17:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You draw a vertical line, it *is* over the shoulder. If you then picture the \nplanet rising in an arc, clockwise, it doesn't sound far off. But here my \nunderstanding of english may be just deficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose I should clarify that I think it's plain that \"visor of gold\"\ndoesn't mean that at all. It just needs to be dominated almost entirely\nby a solar/moonscape reflection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's something \nrelfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be interpreted as \nshadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might also guess the visor's \nsurface was golden." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1C8F.8020406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:06:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1B1B.9060107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly what I think. If everything else fit, these would not be \nproblems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (02-07-2010 17:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You draw a vertical line, it *is* over the shoulder. If you then \npicture the planet rising in an arc, clockwise, it doesn't sound far \noff. But here my understanding of english may be just deficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose I should clarify that I think it's plain that \"visor of gold\"\ndoesn't mean that at all. It just needs to be dominated almost entirely\nby a solar/moonscape reflection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's \nsomething relfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be \ninterpreted as shadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might also \nguess the visor's surface was golden.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1EE2.6000006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:16:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1B1B.9060107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 12:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (02-07-2010 17:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You draw a vertical line, it *is* over the shoulder. If you then picture\nthe planet rising in an arc, clockwise, it doesn't sound far off. But\nhere my understanding of english may be just deficient." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The image of the earth begins about 820 pixel columns from the left \nborder and extends to the 910th or so; the helmet begins about 740 and \nand extends to 1260. If the image is rotated to align local vertical \nwith the y-axis, it's even closer to directly above his head." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:22:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1B1B.9060107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm really fairly amazed at the level of nit-pickery over this question. Let\nus cast our minds back to the thrilling days of yesteryear (the late 70s),\nwhen Wolfe wrote SotT. There was no internet on which you could look up all\nthe thousands of then-unreleased Apollo program pictures, there were a few\nplaces you could find pictures in hardcopy (Life -- already moribund,\nNational Geographic, a few coffee table books, etc.). As an SF fan, I'm sure\nhe had resources such as the F&SF cover -- or not, he may not be a pack rat.\n\nIt seems quite obvious that the description he wrote is based on his\nmemories of various photos and paintings he had actually seen, but he very\nlikely wasn't staring at an actual photo when he wrote the words. Even if he\nwas, who's to say he might not have taken auctorial liberties with what he\nsaw?\n\nI know that after many re-readings of SotT, my minds-eye image of the\n\"canonical\" Apollo photograph is now the (non-existent) one Wolfe described.\n\n-- David Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\n2010/7/2 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (02-07-2010 17:24):\n\n Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You draw a vertical line, it *is* over the shoulder. If you then picture\nthe planet rising in an arc, clockwise, it doesn't sound far off. But here\nmy understanding of english may be just deficient.\n\n\n I suppose I should clarify that I think it's plain that \"visor of gold\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "doesn't mean that at all. It just needs to be dominated almost entirely\nby a solar/moonscape reflection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's something\nrelfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be interpreted as\nshadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might also guess the visor's\nsurface was golden.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E2351.3000306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:35:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 12:22 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nI'm really fairly amazed at the level of nit-pickery over this \nquestion. Let us cast our minds back to the thrilling days of \nyesteryear (the late 70s), when Wolfe wrote SotT. There was no \ninternet on which you could look up all the thousands of \nthen-unreleased Apollo program pictures, there were a few places you \ncould find pictures in hardcopy (Life -- already moribund, National \nGeographic, a few coffee table books, etc.). As an SF fan, I'm sure he \nhad resources such as the F&SF cover -- or not, he may not be a pack rat.\n\nIt seems quite obvious that the description he wrote is based on his \nmemories of various photos and paintings he had actually seen, but he \nvery likely wasn't staring at an actual photo when he wrote the words. \nEven if he was, who's to say he might not have taken auctorial \nliberties with what he saw?\n\nI know that after many re-readings of SotT, my minds-eye image of the \n\"canonical\" Apollo photograph is now the (non-existent) one Wolfe \ndescribed.\n\n-- David Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but wonder, if he were asked, would Wolfe shed some light on that \ndancer with wings like leeches?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E239A.1010701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:36:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have a point about finding specific photos. Even though Wolfe was in \npublishing and no doubt knows more than a little about how and where to \nfind images, there was no Web gallery to browse. However, we're not \nnecessarily looking for a photo Wolfe saw. It could have been a photo \nsomeone else saw and painted. It could have been an image in our \nnational memory, or our shared fannish memory. It could have been his \nown bad memory.\n\nI still think this is an worthwhile quest, because:\n\n(1) The book may have had the same effect on me as it did on you, and \nI'd be fascinated to know the truth.\n\n(2) Issues of memory are hardly irrelevant to the novel. Nor are issues \nof myth.\n\n(3) Is the painting a Borgesian artefact? Is it a knowingly false but \ntruer-than-true insertion?\n\n(4) Is it an SF in-joke, as might be if the image was on the cover of \nAstounding?\n\nError? Red herring? MacGuffin? These are basic interpretive questions. \nI've already suggested that I don't think Wolfe makes things up when he \nhas an alternative at hand. Thus the question: was there an alternative \nto making it up?\n\nKeep in mind that this painting is the only plain link to the 20th c in \nthe entire book(s), if you set aside the many pulp references." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling wrote:\nI'm really fairly amazed at the level of nit-pickery over this \nquestion. Let us cast our minds back to the thrilling days of \nyesteryear (the late 70s), when Wolfe wrote SotT. There was no \ninternet on which you could look up all the thousands of \nthen-unreleased Apollo program pictures, there were a few places you \ncould find pictures in hardcopy (Life -- already moribund, National \nGeographic, a few coffee table books, etc.). As an SF fan, I'm sure he \nhad resources such as the F&SF cover -- or not, he may not be a pack rat.\n\nIt seems quite obvious that the description he wrote is based on his \nmemories of various photos and paintings he had actually seen, but he \nvery likely wasn't staring at an actual photo when he wrote the words. \nEven if he was, who's to say he might not have taken auctorial \nliberties with what he saw?\n\nI know that after many re-readings of SotT, my minds-eye image of the \n\"canonical\" Apollo photograph is now the (non-existent) one Wolfe \ndescribed.\n\n-- David Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\n2010/7/2 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n David Stockhoff wrote (02-07-2010 17:24):\n\n Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder.\n\n\n You draw a vertical line, it *is* over the shoulder. If you then\n picture the planet rising in an arc, clockwise, it doesn't sound\n far off. But here my understanding of english may be just deficient.\n\n\n I suppose I should clarify that I think it's plain that \"visor\n of gold\"\n doesn't mean that at all. It just needs to be dominated almost\n entirely\n by a solar/moonscape reflection.\n\n\n The reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's\n something relfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be\n interpreted as shadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might\n also guess the visor's surface was golden.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<94D6B826-B3FE-47A0-9CBE-6C58CC5747FB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:56:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 2, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nI'm really fairly amazed at the level of nit-pickery over this question. Let us cast our minds back to the thrilling days of yesteryear (the late 70s), when Wolfe wrote SotT. There was no internet on which you could look up all the thousands of then-unreleased Apollo program pictures, there were a few places you could find pictures in hardcopy (Life -- already moribund, National Geographic, a few coffee table books, etc.). As an SF fan, I'm sure he had resources such as the F&SF cover -- or not, he may not be a pack rat.\n\nIt seems quite obvious that the description he wrote is based on his memories of various photos and paintings he had actually seen, but he very likely wasn't staring at an actual photo when he wrote the words. Even if he was, who's to say he might not have taken auctorial liberties with what he saw?\n\nI know that after many re-readings of SotT, my minds-eye image of the \"canonical\" Apollo photograph is now the (non-existent) one Wolfe described.\n\n-- David Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nWolfe also built an entire SF series with hundreds of extinct words which he found through diligent research. I wouldn't put hours spent at the microfiche table past him, and those NASA photos would have been released I'm almost certain. Hell, most of the images currently found on Google are from prints from the 60's and 70's, some of them autographed.\n\nHowever, I'm of the same mind as you, that he cobbled together the perfect composition from a few iconic images. I think the image in my head in that pinakotheken, is a wide shot of an astronaut standing on Earth's surface with a flag in his hand and an Earth rising over his shoulder. You can't see a staff in his hand without it being wide enough, etc.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:09:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<94D6B826-B3FE-47A0-9CBE-6C58CC5747FB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's told us some of his main sources for obscure words, such as \"Mrs.\nByrne's Dictionary\" and books on the Byzantine and Roman Empires. I don't\nthink he needed to spend much time with a microfiche reader, if any.\n\nI also think you overestimate the availability of NASA Apollo prints. Some\nwere only released in the last few years, for example.\n\nBut at least we are in violent agreement...\n\n-- Dave" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jul 2, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm really fairly amazed at the level of nit-pickery over this question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let us cast our minds back to the thrilling days of yesteryear (the late\n70s), when Wolfe wrote SotT. There was no internet on which you could look\nup all the thousands of then-unreleased Apollo program pictures, there were\na few places you could find pictures in hardcopy (Life -- already moribund,\nNational Geographic, a few coffee table books, etc.). As an SF fan, I'm sure\nhe had resources such as the F&SF cover -- or not, he may not be a pack rat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems quite obvious that the description he wrote is based on his\nmemories of various photos and paintings he had actually seen, but he very\nlikely wasn't staring at an actual photo when he wrote the words. Even if he\nwas, who's to say he might not have taken auctorial liberties with what he\nsaw?\n\nI know that after many re-readings of SotT, my minds-eye image of the\n\"canonical\" Apollo photograph is now the (non-existent) one Wolfe described.\n\n-- David Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David,\n\nWolfe also built an entire SF series with hundreds of extinct words which\nhe found through diligent research. I wouldn't put hours spent at the\nmicrofiche table past him, and those NASA photos would have been released\nI'm almost certain. Hell, most of the images currently found on Google are\nfrom prints from the 60's and 70's, some of them autographed.\n\nHowever, I'm of the same mind as you, that he cobbled together the perfect\ncomposition from a few iconic images. I think the image in my head in that\npinakotheken, is a wide shot of an astronaut standing on Earth's surface\nwith a flag in his hand and an Earth rising over his shoulder. You can't see\na staff in his hand without it being wide enough, etc.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB01C4A-252A-44E0-85C5-D728E5BF3547@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:28:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm curious about the release dates of the ones I've found. I've posted a screengrab with my captions on them here:\n\nwww.liftingfaces.com/uploads/moonman_sources.jpg\n\nThings to note:\n\n- a strangely stiff banner (i found an image with the flag threaded with a rod along the top)\n- the deathly desert is reflected in his visor and nothing more, you would see stuff (cameraman) in a real photo\n- there are images of astronauts with earthrise behind them, but it's an easy enough composite, and symbolic\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 2, 2010, at 2:09 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nHe's told us some of his main sources for obscure words, such as \"Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary\" and books on the Byzantine and Roman Empires. I don't think he needed to spend much time with a microfiche reader, if any.\n\nI also think you overestimate the availability of NASA Apollo prints. Some were only released in the last few years, for example.\n\nBut at least we are in violent agreement...\n\n-- Dave\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jul 2, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm really fairly amazed at the level of nit-pickery over this question. Let us cast our minds back to the thrilling days of yesteryear (the late 70s), when Wolfe wrote SotT. There was no internet on which you could look up all the thousands of then-unreleased Apollo program pictures, there were a few places you could find pictures in hardcopy (Life -- already moribund, National Geographic, a few coffee table books, etc.). As an SF fan, I'm sure he had resources such as the F&SF cover -- or not, he may not be a pack rat.\n\nIt seems quite obvious that the description he wrote is based on his memories of various photos and paintings he had actually seen, but he very likely wasn't staring at an actual photo when he wrote the words. Even if he was, who's to say he might not have taken auctorial liberties with what he saw?\n\nI know that after many re-readings of SotT, my minds-eye image of the \"canonical\" Apollo photograph is now the (non-existent) one Wolfe described.\n\n-- David Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David,\n\nWolfe also built an entire SF series with hundreds of extinct words which he found through diligent research. I wouldn't put hours spent at the microfiche table past him, and those NASA photos would have been released I'm almost certain. Hell, most of the images currently found on Google are from prints from the 60's and 70's, some of them autographed.\n\nHowever, I'm of the same mind as you, that he cobbled together the perfect composition from a few iconic images. I think the image in my head in that pinakotheken, is a wide shot of an astronaut standing on Earth's surface with a flag in his hand and an Earth rising over his shoulder. You can't see a staff in his hand without it being wide enough, etc.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E3452.3070804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:47:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1EE2.6000006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (02-07-2010 18:16):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 12:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (02-07-2010 17:24):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah, except it's not rising over anyone's shoulder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You draw a vertical line, it *is* over the shoulder. If you then picture\nthe planet rising in an arc, clockwise, it doesn't sound far off. But\nhere my understanding of english may be just deficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The image of the earth begins about 820 pixel columns from the left\nborder and extends to the 910th or so; the helmet begins about 740 and\nand extends to 1260. If the image is rotated to align local vertical\nwith the y-axis, it's even closer to directly above his head." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it's far above enough that I think it can be described as being rising \nover his shoulder \n(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3012885/Var/AS17-134-20387HR-crop.png). The photo \nis taken sideways anyway. Why mention the shoulder rather than the head? I \nthink saying it was rising over his head would be strange, as it would give \nno hint of directionality, either 3D or 2D wise. It doesn't say which \nshoulder, but that's a matter of leaving off irrelevant information \n(irrelevant for them, who were looking at the picture).\n\nAnd what do you make of that 'again'? Will someone now suggest they were \nlooking at a video (or an animated gif! or flash animation! or \nsilverlight...) in which the earth rose and set in a loop? Or that they had \nbeen watching other pictures of the earth as seen from space? (Aha... we're \non to something... that 'again' certainly is a clue that they had been \ndiscussing a whole lot of pictures prior to that one... and Severian doesn't \nmention it... I wonder why...)\n\nOf course, if one allows for rotation, all bets are off. Or on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<518f93bc5504707333f4d90ba5910137@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "adam at io.com", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth)The mystery of the image of\tan astronaut cleaned\tby Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1B1B.9060107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:00:11 +0100, Ant?nio Pedro Marques\n wrote:\nThe reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's something \nrelfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be interpreted as \nshadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might also guess the visor's \nsurface was golden." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, er....\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-LEVA.html\n\n\"The inner surface of the polysulfone sun visor has a gold coating which\nprovides protection against light and reduces heat gain within the helmet.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E359F.3050701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:53:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<518f93bc5504707333f4d90ba5910137@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. I didn't know there multiple visors though.\n\nHe'd still have to be facing the sun to give him a reason to have the \nvisor full down.\n\nNow here might be an excuse to make up such a scene---if the figure is \nfacing the Sun for symbolic reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "adam at io.com wrote:\nOn Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:00:11 +0100, Ant?nio Pedro Marques\n wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's something \nrelfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be interpreted as \nshadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might also guess the visor's \nsurface was golden.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, er....\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-LEVA.html\n\n\"The inner surface of the polysulfone sun visor has a gold coating which\nprovides protection against light and reduces heat gain within the helmet.\"\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E361D.30402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:55:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<518f93bc5504707333f4d90ba5910137@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "adam at io.com wrote (02-07-2010 19:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:00:11 +0100, Ant?nio Pedro Marques\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The reflection on the visor, in that picture, looks like it's something\nrelfected on a gilded surface. The black part could be interpreted as\nshadow. In fact, if I didn't know better, I might also guess the visor's\nsurface was golden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, er....\n\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-LEVA.html\n\n\"The inner surface of the polysulfone sun visor has a gold coating which\nprovides protection against light and reduces heat gain within the helmet.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I may have not expressed myself clearly. I might guess it was all solid gold." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E434E.1000103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:51:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E3452.3070804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 1:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd what do you make of that 'again'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same as the other 'again', he had cleaned it twice before.\n\n\"'Today I took the notion to clean it again. And it needs it see how \nnice it's brightening up? There's your blue Urth coming over his \nshoulder again, fresh as the Autarch's fish.'\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E441E.8040509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E434E.1000103@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 2:51 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/2/2010 1:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And what do you make of that 'again'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Same as the other 'again', he had cleaned it twice before.\n\n\"'Today I took the notion to clean it again. And it needs it see how \nnice it's brightening up? There's your blue Urth coming over his \nshoulder again, fresh as the Autarch's fish.'\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The picture had become so dingy that Urth had become obscured in the \npicture.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50720.9407.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T21:57:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "<4C2CFBB2.1030802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n\nI wrote:\n \n\nAnd what about /The Wizard Knight/? The Aelf could be toys in the hands of evil humans if the humans realized it, just as humans sometimes are " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for Lothur. (But then the whole non-Christian deism of TWK is strange. Humans seem to be at the bottom instead of in the middle.)\n\nI think that was the point. Human degeneracy had caused them to be\nenslaved by their lowest\ninstincts. Humanity ought to have been seeking" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to serve the ideals of Valfather and then Michael's > and then discover\nthe ideals that are even higher still.\n\nI agree with that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Due to their enslavement to Arnthor" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's not a good ruler (although not such a bad one, in Able's judgement), but I don't see that people are enslaved to him--certainly not humanity as a whole." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(a dragon in disguise from a realm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "two levels lower),\n\nHalf-dragon? Is that ever made clear?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "even Aelfrice (representing lower instincts but" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "higher than those that had enslaved humanity) was > also enslaved by\nthose instincts and hence rebelled -- because humans had relinquished\nthe ideals" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "necessary to hold the beings of Aelfrice in awe. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a picture of a man with his priorities upside down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Seven Worlds are a picture of a man? Not, maybe, a society?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TWK might" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "well be viewed as the most moralistic novel Wolfe has ever written.\n\nFor one thing, it's one of the few where sexual fidelity seems like it might be a good idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\nfollowing is\na key scene: Valfather bowing before Michael, as Michael\ntells Abel that to be a knight he must be\nable to command Disiri with" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the same authority.\n\nNot to be a knight, unless I'm missing something. All I see is that Michael is answering Able's question of how to find her (TK, Ch. 44).\n\nIt's certainly a key scene, and beautifully done, but I get the feeling other scenes show humanity at the bottom. I can't imagine that humans could impress the Overcyns and trick them into worshiping us the way the Aelf have done to some humans, or even pester Overcyns the way Uri and Baki pester Able. Or that any human could transform an Overcyn the way Disiri transforms Able. Both the Aelf and the Overcyns have supernatural powers, but humans don't seem to have any powers that the Aelf don't have (except summoning them). Both the Overcyns and the Aelf have special leaders, such as the Valfather or Disiri, but humanity doesn't--who is the model for Aelf fathers or kings? Able presumably has his priorities as straight as anyone, and his feelings toward the Valfather are very different from his feelings toward Arnthor, but he treats them the same way: respect, obedience, and a little civil disobedience.\n\nSo what's going on?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1F89DD94B3954EE6B576E3967636A4B6@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T14:56:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tofan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E0B7B.7000605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nSchmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference \n\"*your* blue Urth\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"the whole world began to rise, pivoting (I think) on Madagascar\"\n [from 'The Death of Hyle']\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<01BB0BF4-8BD7-4C77-AA5E-AE5FFF6CC376@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T15:58:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E0B7B.7000605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 2, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSchmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference \"*your* blue Urth\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either that or Rudesind = Inire, who is likely NOT from Urth, but a hierodule, hence *your* Urth (it ain't his).\n\nCall me crazy.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T16:08:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\tan\n\tastronautcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E3452.3070804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nBut it's far above enough that I think it can be described as being rising \nover his shoulder \n(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3012885/Var/AS17-134-20387HR-crop.png). The photo \nis taken sideways anyway. Why mention the shoulder rather than the head? I \nthink saying it was rising over his head would be strange, as it would \ngive no hint of directionality, either 3D or 2D wise. It doesn't say which \nshoulder, but that's a matter of leaving off irrelevant information \n(irrelevant for them, who were looking at the picture)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense... good literary technique, making a more concrete image \nfor the reader.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2F74A2.5030603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-03T17:34:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<01BB0BF4-8BD7-4C77-AA5E-AE5FFF6CC376@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or he could be any hierodule or alien.Or he may know who Severian is, \nand his special connection to it. Or he could simply be speaking in \nvernacular." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jul 2, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Schmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference \n\"*your* blue Urth\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either that or Rudesind = Inire, who is likely NOT from Urth, but a \nhierodule, hence *your* Urth (it ain't his).\n\nCall me crazy.\n\n...ryan\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<36FDC05E-F757-4387-91C3-3CFDAC74B52D@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T18:33:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2F74A2.5030603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to favor Inire in disguise, personally (masks abound, etc.). But I am definitely open to Mitchell Bailey's thoughts on the matter from some time back...\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0027/0088.shtml\n\nThe curators at the Botanic Garden, in particular, makes his argument very convincing to me.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 3, 2010, at 1:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOr he could be any hierodule or alien.Or he may know who Severian is, and his special connection to it. Or he could simply be speaking in vernacular.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 2, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Schmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference \"*your* blue Urth\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either that or Rudesind = Inire, who is likely NOT from Urth, but a hierodule, hence *your* Urth (it ain't his).\n\nCall me crazy.\n\n...ryan\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<436F4071223E4768B07CF800E6DD9505@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T19:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "<50720.9407.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the humans seem underpowered in some ways compared to the others. The Aelf have more magic than the humans, and the Dragons have more magic than the Aelf. But the Overcyn have more magic than the humans too! (Wnen I say humans, I mean all on Mythgartr - the Angrborn and the Osterlanders do not have much magic power either.)\n\nBut maybe Mythgartr has something special. I know every world is supposed to be smaller than the world above... but I don't feel that about Mythgartr. Maybe it's because the characters are human - but it feels like the largest world in some way.\n\nWhatever the humans have, it ain't magic. But they have something. They are not at the bottom... in some way they are central. And there's another world too, full of humans, this so called 'America'.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jerry Friedman \n It's certainly a key scene, and beautifully done, but I get the feeling other scenes show humanity at the bottom. I can't imagine that humans could impress the Overcyns and trick them into worshiping us the way the Aelf have done to some humans, or even pester Overcyns the way Uri and Baki pester Able. Or that any human could transform an Overcyn the way Disiri transforms Able. Both the Aelf and the Overcyns have supernatural powers, but humans don't seem to have any powers that the Aelf don't have (except summoning them). Both the Overcyns and the Aelf have special leaders, such as the Valfather or Disiri, but humanity doesn't--who is the model for Aelf fathers or kings? Able presumably has his priorities as straight as anyone, and his feelings toward the Valfather are very different from his feelings toward Arnthor, but he treats them the same way: respect, obedience, and a little civil disobedience.\n http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2FAC43.4030402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T21:31:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "<50720.9407.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "**\nAnd what about/The Wizard Knight/? The Aelf could be toys\nin the hands of evil humans if the humans realized it, just\nas humans sometimes are for Lothur." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(But then the whole non-Christian deism of TWK is strange.\nHumans seem to be at the bottom instead of in the middle.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that was the point. Human degeneracy had caused them to be \nenslaved by their lowest\ninstincts. Humanity ought to have been seeking to serve the ideals \nof Valfather and then Michael's\nand then discover the ideals that are even higher still." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Due to their enslavement to Arnthor" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's not a good ruler (although not such a bad one, in Able's \njudgement), but I don't see that people are enslaved to him--certainly \nnot humanity as a whole." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's a figure. Everyone in the story is within his realm IIRC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(a dragon in disguise from a realm two levels lower)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Half-dragon? Is that ever made clear?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it was clear that Arnthor, his sister, and Garsecg/Setr were \nactually dragons in the lower world, Muspel. They simultaneously exist \nthere as dragons. Humanity Rule by Dragons is a figure, I think, of a \nman ruled by his base instincts: sex, food, acquisition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "even Aelfrice (representing lower instincts but higher than those \nthat had enslaved humanity) was > also enslaved by those instincts and \nhence rebelled -- because humans had relinquished the ideals\nnecessary to hold the beings of Aelfrice in awe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a picture of a man with his priorities upside down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Seven Worlds are a picture of a man? Not, maybe, a society?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, to the extent that society is an extrapolation of the people \nwithin it, yeah. But the book is about following \"knightly ideals\", and \none needs a society to act within in order to become a knight. So it \nworks better I think if the figure is individualized. Able is us, in a \nsense. And Mythgarthr is Able.\n\n(*) I'm putting a mark about this next paragraph to reference it later.\n\nI say the novel is a \"figure\", because it is the wrong way around to ask \n\"well, were the dragons were doing the wrong thing in attempting to go \nto Mythgarthr? Were the people of Skai doing the wrong thing in allowing \nAble to be a hero there?\" It's not about them. It's a novel about people \nnot Overcyns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "TWK might well be viewed as the most moralistic novel Wolfe has ever \nwritten." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For one thing, it's one of the few where sexual fidelity seems like it \nmight be a good idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's part of it. Able conquers his Dragony baser instincts for \nthe sake of the instincts of Aelfrice -- What those greater instincts \nare is not clear, but let's say they are Romantic Love and Beauty. \nIronically without those Dragony instincts, he would not find the \nAelfrice instincts appealing. By the same token, his love for Aelfrice's \nDisiri causes him to relinquish a chance to be near her and to live in \nSkai. The lower worlds, in their proper place, drives the hero to the \nhigher worlds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The following is\na key scene: Valfather bowing before Michael, as Michael tells Abel \nthat to be a knight he must be\nable to command Disiri with the same authority." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be a knight, unless I'm missing something. All I see is that \nMichael is answering Able's question of how to find her (TK, Ch. 44)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's true I'm speaking in terms of the intended message as I see \nit. Michael says that in order true have Disiri, Able must learn to \nsummon her...that is he must be her her master...that is, he must master \nhis lower desires. In order to do that, he defeats his dragon Grengarm \nand goes --the opposite direction from Aelfrice-- to Skai. After that, \nhe has become a knight Mythgarthr sense and can perform all the duties \nof a knight that he has pledged. And *then* he can summon Disiri." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's certainly a key scene, and beautifully done, but I get the \nfeeling other scenes show humanity at the bottom. I can't imagine \nthat humans could impress the Overcyns and trick them into worshiping \nus the way the Aelf have done to some humans, or even pester Overcyns \nthe way Uri and Baki pester Able. Or that any human could transform \nan Overcyn the way Disiri transforms Able. Both the Aelf and the \nOvercyns have supernatural powers, but humans don't seem to have any \npowers that the Aelf don't have (except summoning them). Both the \nOvercyns and the Aelf have special leaders, such as the Valfather or \nDisiri, but humanity doesn't--who is the model for Aelf fathers or \nkings? Able presumably has his priorities as straight as anyone, and \nhis feelings toward the Valfather are very different from his feelings \ntoward Arnthor, but he treats them the same way: respect, obedience, \nand a little civil disobedience.So what's going on?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See (*)\nMichael is on a quest because he has dishonored himself in some way. So \nostensibly it is possible for the people of each level to fail in some \nway. But it's a novel about people. The Aelf and the Overcyns are \ndevices within that theme.\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T21:57:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "<4C2FAC43.4030402@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it was clear that Arnthor, his sister, and Garsecg/Setr were actually dragons in the lower world, Muspel. They simultaneously exist there as dragons. Humanity Rule by Dragons is a figure, I think, of a man ruled by his base instincts: sex, food, acquisition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no evidence that Arnthor and Morcaine utrilise their dragon aspects elsewhere. Morcaine is introduced as dinner for a dragon. Later Able speculates.on the issue of whether Arnthor's dragonly equipment may be an impediment to his relationship with Gaynor, but this seems a little doubtful to me, even if it fits her character somewhat. [It is unfortunate he could not have found a woman like Idnn, who would, at least after a pep talk with Able, take such issues in her stride. So to speak.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it's true I'm speaking in terms of the intended message as I see it. Michael says that in order true have Disiri, Able must learn to summon her...that is he must be her her master...that is, he must master his lower desires. In order to do that, he defeats his dragon Grengarm and goes --the opposite direction from Aelfrice-- to Skai. After that, he has become a knight Mythgarthr sense and can perform all the duties of a knight that he has pledged. And *then* he can summon Disiri." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can buy this interpretation. Though I am not 100% convinced by it.\n\nOf course Disiri is also Woman... and as usual Wolfe is less than wholehearted in proclaiming Her superiority.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2FFBF6.2070503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T03:11:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see no evidence that Arnthor and Morcaine utrilise their dragon \naspects elsewhere. Morcaine is introduced as dinner for a \ndragon.Later Able speculates.on the issue of whether Arnthor's \ndragonly equipment may be an impediment to his relationship with \nGaynor, but this seems a little doubtful to me, even if it fits her \ncharacter somewhat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Able's speculation qualifies as evidence, I think. And since \nGarsecg/Setr is Aelf in Aelfrice and a dragon in Muspel, it seems to me \nthat you are rejecting the obvious. When Able sets things right in \nMythgarthr, it means the end of Arnthor's and Morcaine's rule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[It is unfortunate he could not have found a woman like Idnn, who \nwould, at least after a pep talk with Able, take such issues in her \nstride. So to speak.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, it's true I'm speaking in terms of the intended message as I \nsee it. Michael says that in order true have Disiri, Able must learn \nto summon her...that is he must be her her master...that is, he must \nmaster his lower desires. In order to do that, he defeats his dragon \nGrengarm and goes --the opposite direction from Aelfrice-- to Skai. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After that, he has become a knight Mythgarthr sense and can perform \nall the duties of a knight that he has pledged. And *then* he can \nsummon Disiri.\nI can buy this interpretation. Though I am not 100% convinced by it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's good enough for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course Disiri is also Woman... and as usual Wolfe is less than \nwholehearted in proclaiming Her superiority." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...I don't want to respond contemptuously, so just imagine that I \ndid. ;-)\nWhat is the message of then of Valfather bowing before Michael? One \nthing I appreciate about Wolfe's fiction is that he is apparently deaf \nto unspoken PC post-feminist rules that cause other writers to turn \ntheir female characters into predictable stock.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3000BA.6050904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T03:32:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Wizard Knight Theology", "in_reply_to": "<4C2FFBF6.2070503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amen to that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n One thing I appreciate about Wolfe's fiction is that he is \napparently deaf to unspoken PC post-feminist rules that cause other \nwriters to turn their female characters into predictable stock.\n\nu+16b9\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100703-1, 07/03/2010\nTested on: 7/3/2010 11:12:15 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C302F14.7010101@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T06:49:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<01BB0BF4-8BD7-4C77-AA5E-AE5FFF6CC376@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/3/2010 10:58 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jul 2, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Schmitt also took this iconic image\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg\n\nwhich may be the source of Rudesinde's peculiar possessive reference\n\"*your* blue Urth\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either that or Rudesind = Inire, who is likely NOT from Urth, but a\nhierodule, hence *your* Urth (it ain't his).\n\nCall me crazy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're one crazy optimate!\n\nRudesind is clearly Inire's body double." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30DF6B.9060701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T19:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appearances of Inire", "in_reply_to": "<9A2CE6160D204CE99FB75FE7A2F13D39@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n 2010/7/1 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n\n Keeping option 3 doesn't mean that the acts of Tzadkiel need no\n atoning for, it just means they're done with the best of intentions\n and knowledge. We have a saying here, 'Of [people with] good\n intentions is Hell full'.\n\nA common saying in English is \"the road to Hell is paved with good\nintentions\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the reason I seldom remember the english proverb is that it evokes \nin me the image of a single soul's gradual descending path into damnation. I \nmight remember it if I were going after that image. The portuguese one \nrather suggests a lot of people with good intentions rather than a single \nperson with a lot of good intentions.\n\nA fabulous thing, intentions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30E072.2020503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T19:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C2F74A2.5030603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOr he could be any hierodule or alien.Or he may know who Severian is,\nand his special connection to it. Or he could simply be speaking in\nvernacular." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or the possessive may mean he's pointing to it for the benefit of Severian, \nsince he (Rudesind) knowns all thee is to know about the picture anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30E3AA.2000906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T19:40:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<36FDC05E-F757-4387-91C3-3CFDAC74B52D@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI tend to favor Inire in disguise, personally (masks abound, etc.). But I am definitely open to Mitchell Bailey's thoughts on the matter from some time back..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't like the idea of reducing the whole book to a single character. \nAlong the lines of thought that have been presented here, everyone could be \neverybody (yeah, I know others have complained about this before).\n\nThe old Autarch appears in the book before we know who he is. Father Inire \nis never mentioned as appearing but there is at least one time someone \nappears who may be he (at the old Autarch's accident). I really don't think \nany more connections are called for. Where's the added value in positing \nthat FI is, say, Rudesind? Unless it is conducive to a richer reading, I \nthink speculation on any Gene Wolfe material is to be seriously avoided." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30E818.8090209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T19:59:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the\n\timage\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C30E072.2020503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. That's kind of what I meant: \"your\" being like \"that old\" or \nsimilar---a folksy storytelling manner of speaking. I'm not sure what \npart of speech it would be---maybe an intensifying article." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or he could be any hierodule or alien.Or he may know who Severian is,\nand his special connection to it. Or he could simply be speaking in\nvernacular." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or the possessive may mean he's pointing to it for the benefit of \nSeverian, since he (Rudesind) knowns all thee is to know about the \npicture anyway.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T00:00:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C30E3AA.2000906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The appearance of the Autarch at House Azure opens the gates to other unannounced, unnamed characters appearing. He did it with Hildegrin as well, and a handful of other characters. Why not Inire, perhaps the most talked about yet never seen character?\n\nYou sort of proved my point for me.\n\nWhy go to the trouble of giving Rudesind monkey-like description? Why have Eata say Inire looks like a monkey? Why have a red, wizened monkey who could be a man were it not for the hand-feet watching over Severian from the jungle above? Why, why WHY?\n\nBecause Inire has a clear motive to make sure Severian's journey goes just so, and that he and his eidetic memory make their way to the war with the proper \"experiences\", for the inevitable trip to Yesod.\n\nNo? Not sure that is as speculative as it may seem.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 4, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFather Inire is never mentioned as appearing but there is at least one time someone appears who may be he (at the old Autarch's accident). I really don't think any more connections are called for. Where's the added value in positing that FI is, say, Rudesind? Unless it is conducive to a richer reading, I think speculation on any Gene Wolfe material is to be seriously avoided." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Eugene Zaretskiy", "address": "eugene.zar at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T05:43:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nThe appearance of the Autarch at House Azure opens the gates to other unannounced, unnamed characters appearing. He did it with Hildegrin as well, and a handful of other characters. Why not Inire, perhaps the most talked about yet never seen character?\n\nYou sort of proved my point for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you may have missed the point, actually. To believe Wolfe\nplaces masks everywhere and to search every sentence for signs of\nthese masks is, I believe, a fundamental misunderstanding of why many\nof Wolfe's characters wear masks. The Autarch appearing in the House\nAzure before the reader knows its him is not done to make you feel\nclever when you figure it out. It's done because that fact, when you\nrealize it, fundamentally changes your understanding of what it means\nto rule to Commonwealth, what it means to be an Autarch, and changes\nthe purpose of Severian's trip there. If I'm being vague, it's because\nthat has been discussed on this list a number of times before in\nclearer terms than I can provide. More importantly, the details are\nbeside the point.\n\nThe point, the one I believe you misinterpreted to believe it supports\nyour point, is that the Autarch's mask in this case serves a very\nstrong purpose that enriches the story. The suggestion that Inire is\nRudesind seems to be ignoring this. What value to the book is there if\nInire is indeed Rudesind? Saying that it proves Inire is guiding\nSeverian seems ridiculous to me (and perhaps only me) since Rudesind's\ndirections could have been obtained from anyone, and if Inire wanted\nto guide Severian in meaningful ways, there were many other, better\nopportunities to have done so. Why search for masks for the sake of\nmasks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why go to the trouble of giving Rudesind monkey-like description? Why have Eata say Inire looks like a monkey? Why have a red, wizened monkey who could be a man were it not for the hand-feet watching over Severian from the jungle above? Why, why WHY?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the same reason any writer has for using metaphors: they provide a\nconvenience when needing to describe someone. In this case, much is\naccomplished by the use of the word \"monkey\" without having to assume\nit's time to go on a meaningless mask-hunt. Personally, I think the\ndescription of Inire as a monkey helps build the image the common folk\nhave of him: As being non-human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No? Not sure that is as speculative as it may seem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speculation is fine, but as you say: why? Why would Inire be Rudesind?\n\n- EZ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B08E3C6DBE34D468B79114988DD5696@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-05T08:07:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the\n\timageof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nThe appearance of the Autarch at House Azure opens the gates to other \nunannounced, unnamed characters appearing. He did it with Hildegrin as \nwell, and a handful of other characters. Why not Inire, perhaps the most \ntalked about yet never seen character?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You sort of proved my point for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why go to the trouble of giving Rudesind monkey-like description? Why have \nEata say Inire looks like a monkey? Why have a red, wizened monkey who \ncould be a man were it not for the hand-feet watching over Severian from \nthe jungle above? Why, why WHY?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not that strange that two people, or one person and one cacogen, might \nresemble in some way our closest animal relatives. We've all known of \npeople likened to monkeys. A recent US president was regularly caricatured \nas a chimp. The monkey in the jungle may have looked human, but he had \nprehensile feet. Maybe Inire has too... but nobody has suggested that \nRudesind had anything unusual in the foot department." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Inire has a clear motive to make sure Severian's journey goes just \nso, and that he and his eidetic memory make their way to the war with the \nproper \"experiences\", for the inevitable trip to Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No? Not sure that is as speculative as it may seem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if this were so... what exactly would be the implications of Severian's \nmonkey sightings when it comes to bringing the New Sun?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C31C109.40708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T11:24:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronaut\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (05-07-2010 01:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The appearance of the Autarch at House Azure opens the gates to other\nunannounced, unnamed characters appearing. He did it with Hildegrin as\nwell, and a handful of other characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's just the way it works - people don't usually go around shouting\ntheir names on the street. You later on recognise them and think 'oh, I've\nseen you before'.\nAnd Severian meets those people and later on recognises he's met them. What\ndo we gain at all by positing that he's also met loads of people who were\nall, in fact, the same as a lot of other people he's met, but doesn't recognise?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not Inire, perhaps the most talked about yet never seen character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How so 'yet'? We talk about powerful politicians all the time, but we seldom\nmeet them in operson, and mostly would never have seen them if not for\nnewspaper photographs and television.\n\nPurpose. Purpose. Where's the added value in such speculation? What richness\ndoes it open the door to?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T12:21:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nThe appearance of the Autarch at House Azure opens the gates to other\nunannounced, unnamed characters appearing. He did it with Hildegrin as well,\nand a handful of other characters. Why not Inire, perhaps the most talked\nabout yet never seen character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he isn't never-seen. It's fairly clear that he's the tiger-shaman guy.\nNow maybe he's one or more of the other candidates mentioned as well, but I\ncan't see why he needs to be all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You sort of proved my point for me.\n\nWhy go to the trouble of giving Rudesind monkey-like description? Why have\nEata say Inire looks like a monkey? Why have a red, wizened monkey who could\nbe a man were it not for the hand-feet watching over Severian from the\njungle above? Why, why WHY?\n\nBecause Inire has a clear motive to make sure Severian's journey goes just\nso, and that he and his eidetic memory make their way to the war with the\nproper \"experiences\", for the inevitable trip to Yesod.\n\nNo? Not sure that is as speculative as it may seem.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 4, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Father Inire is never mentioned as appearing but there is at least one\ntime someone appears who may be he (at the old Autarch's accident). I really\ndon't think any more connections are called for. Where's the added value in\npositing that FI is, say, Rudesind? Unless it is conducive to a richer\nreading, I think speculation on any Gene Wolfe material is to be seriously\navoided." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C322007.9070107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-05T18:10:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be fair, Inire's importance-to-visibility ratio is quite high. That \nis, for a character so vital to the plot---to the plot, not the \nstory---to be so rarely and only indirectly seen is remarkable.\n\nHowever, I think that itself rules out Rudesind. Wolfe likes to let \ncharacters unfold themselves through their speech. Rudesind is right \nthere in plain sight, folksy ways and all. If he were Inire, our only \nglimpse of Inire's speech and manner when he's not talking to little \ngirls is Rudesind and his letter to Severian. They don't match, and \nRudesind doesn't match with Thecla's tale. Inire would have to be an \nactor, of which there are plenty others. But he's not an actor, and he's \ngot other things to do than risk giving himself away to Severian.\n\nAlso, Inire is described as being of middling height or similar. \nRudesind is quite tall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Ryan Dunn > wrote:\n\n The appearance of the Autarch at House Azure opens the gates to\n other unannounced, unnamed characters appearing. He did it with\n Hildegrin as well, and a handful of other characters. Why not\n Inire, perhaps the most talked about yet never seen character?\n\n \nBut he isn't never-seen. It's fairly clear that he's the tiger-shaman \nguy. Now maybe he's one or more of the other candidates mentioned as \nwell, but I can't see why he needs to be all of them.\n \n \n\n You sort of proved my point for me.\n\n Why go to the trouble of giving Rudesind monkey-like description?\n Why have Eata say Inire looks like a monkey? Why have a red,\n wizened monkey who could be a man were it not for the hand-feet\n watching over Severian from the jungle above? Why, why WHY?\n\n Because Inire has a clear motive to make sure Severian's journey\n goes just so, and that he and his eidetic memory make their way to\n the war with the proper \"experiences\", for the inevitable trip to\n Yesod.\n\n No? Not sure that is as speculative as it may seem.\n\n ...ryan\n\n\n On Jul 4, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n > Father Inire is never mentioned as appearing but there is at\n least one time someone appears who may be he (at the old Autarch's\n accident). I really don't think any more connections are called\n for. Where's the added value in positing that FI is, say,\n Rudesind? Unless it is conducive to a richer reading, I think\n speculation on any Gene Wolfe material is to be seriously avoided.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C322904.6090202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T18:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/5/2010 12:43 AM, Eugene Zaretskiy wrote:\nSaying that it proves Inire is guiding\nSeverian seems ridiculous to me (and perhaps only me) since Rudesind's\ndirections could have been obtained from anyone, and if Inire wanted\nto guide Severian in meaningful ways, there were many other, better\nopportunities to have done so. Why search for masks for the sake of\nmasks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a very strong mask motif in the BOTNS, so of course we look for \na theme of multiple or at least dual identities that would be built or \nestablished with that motif. It's not the only theme that a mask motif \ncould support, but others like a protective shell theme don't seem to \napply - a couple of the earliest images in the book are the collapsed \ncurtain wall and Eata slipping past the guards at the gate, if anything \nthe BOTNS is about transgressing barriers....which disguises help you do \nas well.\n\nAnd on his first appearance, Rudesind delivers directions that are *not* \navailable from anyone, in fact the armigers deliberately misguide him \nand Rudesind literally sets him on the correct path. This is not the \nonly path, as Rudesind admits the other way might let him make it to \nUltan's study after more hours of walking. However, the directions given \nin his second appearance in the more dangerous proximity of the House \nAbsolute are much more crucial.\n\nOr is Rudesind's second appearance rather Inire's first appearance? I \nwasn't kidding about Rudesind being Father Inire's body double; it would \nbe very handy to have an alter ego who *can* be in the same room with \nyou at the same time, and the irony of a senile old man calling \nthousand-year-old Inire old and senile and fumblind with a cover story \nbeing commuted into a self-deprecating acknowledgment of his reputation \nand an admission that he's a complete deception is very Wolfean - and \nparallels Severian's disembly with Thais, Pega, and Odilo on the raft in \nURTH." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C322F65.4040209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-05T19:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C322904.6090202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot about the second time Rudesind appears, when he says something \nodd about the painting of Inire, but also that there is a painting of \nhimself. He seems confused and excited. But he was a boy when the \npainting was painted---if he is Inire then Inire was also a boy when his \nwas painted. Fechin painted it. Is that possible?\n\nThe Autarch then appears, as the procurer, then Inire, but Rudesind is \ngone. So doubling arises in the scene." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/5/2010 12:43 AM, Eugene Zaretskiy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Saying that it proves Inire is guiding\nSeverian seems ridiculous to me (and perhaps only me) since Rudesind's\ndirections could have been obtained from anyone, and if Inire wanted\nto guide Severian in meaningful ways, there were many other, better\nopportunities to have done so. Why search for masks for the sake of\nmasks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a very strong mask motif in the BOTNS, so of course we look \nfor a theme of multiple or at least dual identities that would be \nbuilt or established with that motif. It's not the only theme that a \nmask motif could support, but others like a protective shell theme \ndon't seem to apply - a couple of the earliest images in the book are \nthe collapsed curtain wall and Eata slipping past the guards at the \ngate, if anything the BOTNS is about transgressing barriers....which \ndisguises help you do as well.\n\nAnd on his first appearance, Rudesind delivers directions that are \n*not* available from anyone, in fact the armigers deliberately \nmisguide him and Rudesind literally sets him on the correct path. This \nis not the only path, as Rudesind admits the other way might let him \nmake it to Ultan's study after more hours of walking. However, the \ndirections given in his second appearance in the more dangerous \nproximity of the House Absolute are much more crucial.\n\nOr is Rudesind's second appearance rather Inire's first appearance? I \nwasn't kidding about Rudesind being Father Inire's body double; it \nwould be very handy to have an alter ego who *can* be in the same room \nwith you at the same time, and the irony of a senile old man calling \nthousand-year-old Inire old and senile and fumblind with a cover story \nbeing commuted into a self-deprecating acknowledgment of his \nreputation and an admission that he's a complete deception is very \nWolfean - and parallels Severian's disembly with Thais, Pega, and \nOdilo on the raft in URTH." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T19:32:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C322F65.4040209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole thing with Rudesind is weird. I'll leave it at that, since I don't think I have a strong enough set of criteria to support a Rudesind = Inire case with the folks 'round here.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 5, 2010, at 3:15 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI forgot about the second time Rudesind appears, when he says something odd about the painting of Inire, but also that there is a painting of himself. He seems confused and excited. But he was a boy when the painting was painted---if he is Inire then Inire was also a boy when his was painted. Fechin painted it. Is that possible?\n\nThe Autarch then appears, as the procurer, then Inire, but Rudesind is gone. So doubling arises in the scene." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-07-05T22:05:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronautcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nThe whole thing with Rudesind is weird. I'll leave it at that, since I \ndon't think I have a strong enough set of criteria to support a Rudesind \n= Inire case with the folks 'round here.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought there was a consensus that he is one of Inire's agents. He \ncomes down his ladder, S. feels sure, because he heard the name of \nVodalus.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C325D5F.2040308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-05T22:31:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronautcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Autarch says he has people on the lookout for him in the House \nAbsolute, just after Rudesind directs him thence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The whole thing with Rudesind is weird. I'll leave it at that, since \nI don't think I have a strong enough set of criteria to support a \nRudesind = Inire case with the folks 'round here.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought there was a consensus that he is one of Inire's agents. He \ncomes down his ladder, S. feels sure, because he heard the name of \nVodalus.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-05T23:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of\n\tan\tastronautcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C325D5F.2040308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I can buy that. Is it possible all of the Curators are basically agents of Inire? They crop up at the pinakotheken, in the library, at the botanic, etc...\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 5, 2010, at 6:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd the Autarch says he has people on the lookout for him in the House Absolute, just after Rudesind directs him thence.\n\nDavid Duffy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The whole thing with Rudesind is weird. I'll leave it at that, since I don't think I have a strong enough set of criteria to support a Rudesind = Inire case with the folks 'round here.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought there was a consensus that he is one of Inire's agents. He comes down his ladder, S. feels sure, because he heard the name of Vodalus.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T02:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole thing with Rudesind is weird. I'll leave it at that, \nsince I don't think I have a strong enough set of criteria to \nsupport a Rudesind = Inire case with the folks 'round here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan, some have been on this list for a LONG time. Many are content\nwith their reading of BotNS and there is no new theory strong enough\nto meddle with that contentment. As it should be. We are each seeking\nour own best reading and should not seek to bend others to our own \ncomfort level.\n \nFor me, if there is one master key to unlocking puzzles of this story it\nis the recognition of archetypes. We are given one well described \nphenomenon and expected to recognize it disguised elsewhere in the story. \n \nOver and over we are shown that rulers appear in various guises.\nWe know the old Autarch is ruler but also 3rd bursar and also a brothel Madame\nplus other unmentioned roles. Tzadkiel takes the multiple role thing far more\nseriously with various shapes, sizes, species and genders. Even Severian \nlegitimately introduces himself to Pega, et al. via his role as \"Hipparch Severian\nof the Black Tarentines.\"\n \nSo, I find it expected that Father Inire would do the same sort of role playing.\nI could even guess he'd do it more extensively than the Old Autarch, more on a\nlevel with Tzadkiel, given his extra-terrestrial nature. I think we are invited\nto find all versions of him. And, as with Zak/Tzadkiel some distinguishing \ncharacteristic by which we may identify him. Perhaps multiple marks. If we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the Armiger's Daughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, artistic interest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for identifying Father \nInire.\n \nI understand the motivation of those who counsel parsimony, when it might appear\nthere is no purpose to having multiple versions peeping out from behind every bramble\nbush. But for me, there is a purpose to these hidden Father Inires which is to fill\nin some missing spots on Severian's family tree. To me, solving that central mystery\nis important and could be a reason for Wolfe to use many difficult-to-pentrate\nguises for Inire. For others that just might not seem very important or interesting.\n \nFWIW, I don't think Rusesind's height is ever mentioned. He does have hands as long\nas Severian's feet and a nose which almost touches his chin. \n \nLike so? http://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/proboscis-monkey-adult.jpg \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T03:22:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 5, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRyan, some have been on this list for a LONG time. Many are content\nwith their reading of BotNS and there is no new theory strong enough\nto meddle with that contentment. As it should be. We are each seeking\nour own best reading and should not seek to bend others to our own \ncomfort level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having only read BotNS twice, I can see I have my work cut out for me. I appreciate your feedback, however, and I think you and I share a similar feeling about the text, that there is a central puzzle and that is Severian and his journey to becoming Autarch, and eventually [bringer of] the New Sun.\n\nThere is a definite theatrical undertone to the book, and I believe as a reader, I feel like these sitcom-like encounters are not merely coincidences, but a series of moments forged by revisionist history in the making, with disguises, masks, spies and so forth.\n\nThere are also a lot of side-stories involving stage plays and traditional theatrical devices (puppets, vaudevillian plays, etc.) and I think that they are another clue to the bigger meaning of the entire story arc. For this reason, I feel like these over-the-top double-identities are fair game. \"Nothing is what it seems,\" as it were.\n\nThanks again.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C32A3C9.5010300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T03:32:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image\n\tof\tan\tastronautcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/5/2010 6:17 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nYes, I can buy that. Is it possible all of the Curators are basically agents of Inire? They crop up at the pinakotheken, in the library, at the botanic, etc..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would not be much of a stretch for an immortal officer of the \nAutarch's court to have vetted and personally charged thousands of \nservants with being the Autarch's eyes and ears, and helping hands when \nthe need arises." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C32A650.7070908@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T03:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIf we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the Armiger's Daughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, artistic interest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for identifying Father\nInire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C331624.6080801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-06T11:40:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's the line. I take that (long limbs) as suggesting height, \nthough not Ultan's great height.\n\nIs there anything monkeylike about noses touching chins?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n \n.\n \nFWIW, I don't think Rusesind's height is ever mentioned. He does have hands as long\nas Severian's feet and a nose which almost touches his chin. \n \n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3317DF.20705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-06T11:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C32A650.7070908@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's \nwell-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she \nsays it suggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions \none might find at a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact, \nInire strikes me as a Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we \ndon't know why he is interested in them.\n\nLittle girls are not common enough is TBotNS to be much of a help." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the \nArmiger's Daughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, \nartistic interest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for \nidentifying Father\nInire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T12:19:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3317DF.20705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a minute now. Severian goes out of his way to heal the girl in *Sword\nof the Lictor*. That was an unusual display of compassion/interest for\nSeverian, and we've only routinely seen him so interest in women for one\nreason. So Severian is himself Inire.\n\nAnd healing a young girl who was head/near-dying is pretty much a direct\nreference to the Talitha cumi incident. So Severian is Inire and Jesus as\nwell. And Lewis Carroll. (Note--Talitha cumi, or Talitha cum*aean*? The\npun is a bit too on-the-nose. Maybe the Cumaean is also the girl Severian\nraised, through time travel? Sure, one's a girl and one's a...snaky thing,\nbut given the Tzadkiel precedent and the abundance of masks I feel this is a\nvalid possibility.)\n\nNow, there was also an X-Files episode called Talitha Cumi, but unless Gene\nhimself is time-travelling (which I suppose we can't rule out, given *Peace*)\nI doubt it could have any connection to the Book of the New Sun, despite the\ncharacter who heals people miraculously, the concealed identities, the\nhidden aliens, and the missing family members. Actually, maybe I need to\ncheck *Peace *out again..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's\nwell-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she says it\nsuggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions one might find\nat a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact, Inire strikes me as\na Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we don't know why he is\ninterested in them.\n\nLittle girls are not common enough is TBotNS to be much of a help.\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the Armiger's\nDaughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, artistic\ninterest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for identifying\nFather\nInire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C332517.5080008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-06T12:44:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John, all I did was answer Jeff's question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nWait a minute now. Severian goes out of his way to heal the girl in \n/Sword of the Lictor/. That was an unusual display of \ncompassion/interest for Severian, and we've only routinely seen him so \ninterest in women for one reason. So Severian is himself Inire.\n \nAnd healing a young girl who was head/near-dying is pretty much a \ndirect reference to the Talitha cumi incident. So Severian is Inire \nand Jesus as well. And Lewis Carroll. (Note--Talitha cumi, or \nTalitha cum/aean/? The pun is a bit too on-the-nose. Maybe the \nCumaean is also the girl Severian raised, through time travel? Sure, \none's a girl and one's a...snaky thing, but given the Tzadkiel \nprecedent and the abundance of masks I feel this is a valid possibility.)\n \nNow, there was also an X-Files episode called Talitha Cumi, but unless \nGene himself is time-travelling (which I suppose we can't rule out, \ngiven /Peace/) I doubt it could have any connection to the Book of the \nNew Sun, despite the character who heals people miraculously, the \nconcealed identities, the hidden aliens, and the missing family \nmembers. Actually, maybe I need to check /Peace /out again...\n \n \nOn Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n That's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates\n Inire's well-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and\n the way she says it suggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance\n of perversions one might find at a court. But without any evidence\n for sexual contact, Inire strikes me as a Lewis Carroll figure at\n most. The truth is we don't know why he is interested in them.\n\n Little girls are not common enough is TBotNS to be much of a help.\n\n\n Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n If we have a\n gold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify\n the Armiger's Daughter,\n perhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young\n girls, artistic interest and\n losing material possessions are a constellation of traits\n for identifying Father\n Inire.\n\n\n Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T14:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C332517.5080008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "JW- Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DS-That's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's \nwell-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she \nsays it suggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions \none might find at a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact, \nInire strikes me as a Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we \ndon't know why he is interested in them. Little girls are not common\nenough is TBotNS to be much of a help." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is where my discussion of comfort level comes in. If you are\ncomfortable not understanding Father Inire, not understanding why there\nare suggestions of incest and not knowing who might be Severian family\nmembers then there is no reason to pursue these issues. I'm uncomfortable\nnot knowing and willing to suspend my own skepticism and parsimony and take a \nleap of faith in an attempt to understand. But why take that leap if you don't\nneed to?\n \nLewis Carroll was a lifelong bachelor who enjoyed taking nude pictures of \npre-pubescent girls. If you think Gene Wolfe is alluding to him with Inire\nand his looking glass/mirrors and finds both a bit creepy I would not disagree.\nStill I must guess Wolfe admires Lewis Carroll as he does other referenced\nauthors such as J.L. Borges, Rudyard Kipling and Mary Shelley.\n \nStill I think the deeper meaning to this attraction to young girls is found in\nGreek (and other) mythology. I think this is the source of incest insinuations \nalso. For Zeus and other olympians, you had two choices for sex, screwing your\nsister or changing form and screwing humans. My personal view is that the origin\nof these myths is connected to the incestuous Pharaonic family dynasties and the \ninevitable dalliances with commoners.\n \nI think Gene Wolfe prefers to connect these myths to the Bible and The Flood\nand connect pagan gods to fallen angels and their half-human offspring- giants\nand demons and such. Surely his view makes for far more interesting and colorful\nstories.\n \nI think Severian's story can be viewed as Wolfe's attempt to describe what it\nwould be like to have been born a Greek hero, some combination of Hercules, \nTheseus, Oedipus and Jason, etc. What it would be like to be born into a pagan\nworld not knowing you have divine incestuous ancestors not knowing why you have\nsuperhuman abilities nor why you find yourself driven on crazy quests, etc.\n \nTaking this view (with further elaboration of course) allows me an understanding\nof every scene, dream, fable etc. in BotNS, including golden beams of light, corn\nmaidens and weird bull-figures, etc. And that's what I want. If others have \nalternative explanations I am interested in hearing them. If others prefer the \nwhole thing to remain an unexplainable mystery, that's okay too.\n \nJohn Watkins' sincere attempt to solve the mystery of BotNS is surely appreciated.\nI will disagree with his likening of Inire and Severian's intentions for young\nwomen. Inire intrudes on two pretty, aristocratic girls looking at themselves in\na mirror and childes them for vanity. He then realizes one of them, Domnina, has\na special gift for perception (the same perceptive ability found in the adult \nDomnicellae?). He forces her to have an audience with him against her will and\nattempts to instruct and awe her with his divine technology. This seems a Zeus-like\napproach toward young women.\n \nSeverian's interaction with young women is the opposite. He is drawn to the poor and\nsick and malformed. He uses his divine resources to heal and restore health and \nwithered arms. In contrast to Zeus, this is rather Jesus-like as John sugests. We\nsee Severian's young women grow up to become a prophetess and a religious acolyte.\nI rather doubt Father Inire had a very positive effect on the young women who \nreceived his attentions (I'm thinking Dorcas, Catherine, Cyriaca and Agia, perhaps).\n \nI thank John Watkins for helping illuminate the constrast between Inire and Severian\nin this regard.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T14:52:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*honks clown nose*\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 6, 2010, at 8:19 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nWait a minute now. Severian goes out of his way to heal the girl in Sword of the Lictor. That was an unusual display of compassion/interest for Severian, and we've only routinely seen him so interest in women for one reason. So Severian is himself Inire.\n \nAnd healing a young girl who was head/near-dying is pretty much a direct reference to the Talitha cumi incident. So Severian is Inire and Jesus as well. And Lewis Carroll. (Note--Talitha cumi, or Talitha cumaean? The pun is a bit too on-the-nose. Maybe the Cumaean is also the girl Severian raised, through time travel? Sure, one's a girl and one's a...snaky thing, but given the Tzadkiel precedent and the abundance of masks I feel this is a valid possibility.)\n \nNow, there was also an X-Files episode called Talitha Cumi, but unless Gene himself is time-travelling (which I suppose we can't rule out, given Peace) I doubt it could have any connection to the Book of the New Sun, despite the character who heals people miraculously, the concealed identities, the hidden aliens, and the missing family members. Actually, maybe I need to check Peace out again...\n \n \nOn Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's well-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she says it suggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions one might find at a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact, Inire strikes me as a Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we don't know why he is interested in them.\n\nLittle girls are not common enough is TBotNS to be much of a help.\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIf we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the Armiger's Daughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, artistic interest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for identifying Father\nInire.\n\nWhere does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T15:03:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n *honks clown nose*" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh heh heh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ...ryan\n\nOn Jul 6, 2010, at 8:19 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Wait a minute now. Severian goes out of his way to heal the girl in *Sword\nof the Lictor*. That was an unusual display of compassion/interest for\nSeverian, and we've only routinely seen him so interest in women for one\nreason. So Severian is himself Inire.\n\nAnd healing a young girl who was head/near-dying is pretty much a direct\nreference to the Talitha cumi incident. So Severian is Inire and Jesus as\nwell. And Lewis Carroll. (Note--Talitha cumi, or Talitha cum*aean*? The\npun is a bit too on-the-nose. Maybe the Cumaean is also the girl Severian\nraised, through time travel? Sure, one's a girl and one's a...snaky thing,\nbut given the Tzadkiel precedent and the abundance of masks I feel this is a\nvalid possibility.)\n\nNow, there was also an X-Files episode called Talitha Cumi, but unless Gene\nhimself is time-travelling (which I suppose we can't rule out, given *\nPeace*) I doubt it could have any connection to the Book of the New Sun,\ndespite the character who heals people miraculously, the concealed\nidentities, the hidden aliens, and the missing family members. Actually,\nmaybe I need to check *Peace *out again...\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's\nwell-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she says it\nsuggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions one might find\nat a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact, Inire strikes me as\na Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we don't know why he is\ninterested in them.\n\nLittle girls are not common enough is TBotNS to be much of a help.\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the Armiger's\nDaughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, artistic\ninterest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for\nidentifying Father\nInire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<296444.15289.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-06T16:11:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a lot of that makes sense.\n\n--- On Tue, 7/6/10, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 10:43 AM\n\n\n\nJW- Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DS-That's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's \nwell-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she \nsays it suggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions \none might find at a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact, \nInire strikes me as a Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we \ndon't know why he is interested in them. Little girls are not common\nenough is TBotNS to be much of a help." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is where my discussion of comfort level comes in. If you are\ncomfortable not understanding Father Inire, not understanding why there\nare suggestions of incest and not knowing who might be Severian family\nmembers then there is no reason to pursue these issues. I'm uncomfortable\nnot knowing and willing to suspend my own skepticism and parsimony and take a \nleap of faith in an attempt to understand. But why take that leap if you don't\nneed to?\n \nLewis Carroll was a lifelong bachelor who enjoyed taking nude pictures of \npre-pubescent girls. If you think Gene Wolfe is alluding to him with Inire\nand his looking glass/mirrors and finds both a bit creepy I would not disagree.\nStill I must guess Wolfe admires Lewis Carroll as he does other referenced\nauthors such as J.L. Borges, Rudyard Kipling and Mary Shelley.\n \nStill I think the deeper meaning to this attraction to young girls is found in\nGreek (and other) mythology. I think this is the source of incest insinuations \nalso. For Zeus and other olympians, you had two choices for sex, screwing your\nsister or changing form and screwing humans. My personal view is that the origin\nof these myths is connected to the incestuous Pharaonic family dynasties and the \ninevitable dalliances with commoners.\n \nI think Gene Wolfe prefers to connect these myths to the Bible and The Flood\nand connect pagan gods to fallen angels and their half-human offspring- giants\nand demons and such. Surely his view makes for far more interesting and colorful\nstories.\n \nI think Severian's story can be viewed as Wolfe's attempt to describe what it\nwould be like to have been born a Greek hero, some combination of Hercules, \nTheseus, Oedipus and Jason, etc. What it would be like to be born into a pagan\nworld not knowing you have divine incestuous ancestors not knowing why you have\nsuperhuman abilities nor why you find yourself driven on crazy quests, etc.\n \nTaking this view (with further elaboration of course) allows me an understanding\nof every scene, dream, fable etc. in BotNS, including golden beams of light, corn\nmaidens and weird bull-figures, etc. And that's what I want. If others have \nalternative explanations I am interested in hearing them. If others prefer the \nwhole thing to remain an unexplainable mystery, that's okay too.\n \nJohn Watkins' sincere attempt to solve the mystery of BotNS is surely appreciated.\nI will disagree with his likening of Inire and Severian's intentions for young\nwomen. Inire intrudes on two pretty, aristocratic girls looking at themselves in\na mirror and childes them for vanity. He then realizes one of them, Domnina, has\na special gift for perception (the same perceptive ability found in the adult \nDomnicellae?). He forces her to have an audience with him against her will and\nattempts to instruct and awe her with his divine technology. This seems a Zeus-like\napproach toward young women.\n \nSeverian's interaction with young women is the opposite. He is drawn to the poor and\nsick and malformed. He uses his divine resources to heal and restore health and \nwithered arms. In contrast to Zeus, this is rather Jesus-like as John sugests. We\nsee Severian's young women grow up to become a prophetess and a religious acolyte.\nI rather doubt Father Inire had a very positive effect on the young women who \nreceived his attentions (I'm thinking Dorcas, Catherine, Cyriaca and Agia, perhaps).\n \nI thank John Watkins for helping illuminate the constrast between Inire and Severian\nin this regard.\n? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<004701cb1d3d$64350d00$efcd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-06T18:59:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eugene Zaretskiy wrote:\nThe point, the one I believe you misinterpreted to believe it supports\nyour point, is that the Autarch's mask in this case serves a very\nstrong purpose that enriches the story. The suggestion that Inire is\nRudesind seems to be ignoring this. What value to the book is there if\nInire is indeed Rudesind? Saying that it proves Inire is guiding\nSeverian seems ridiculous to me (and perhaps only me) since Rudesind's\ndirections could have been obtained from anyone, and if Inire wanted\nto guide Severian in meaningful ways, there were many other, better\nopportunities to have done so. Why search for masks for the sake of\nmasks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\n(I don't know how this topic got switched to this thread.)\n\nAs I have already said, the last recorded conversation with Rudesind took\nplace *after* Severian became autarch, and was written ten years after the\nconversation. Okay, one may argue that Sev becoming autarch wasn't enough\n(to satisfy the theory that Inire-as-Rudesind was guiding Sev to the throne\nand toward a New Sun), that Inire must get Sev to Yesod. Fine, let's make\nthat assumption just for the sake of the theory.\n\nSomewhere early in URTH, Sev wrote that he had had few friends while\nautarch, save for Inire. He also lets drop that Inire had told him that the\nCumaean was a Hierodule and it is revealed that the Hierodules BF&O had been\nhis \"councilors\" (p-354) while he was autarch. It's hard for me to imagine\nthat Sev was not told about Inire's supposed disguises during those ten\nyears, or that he didn't figure it out, but I'll set that aside.\n\nThe facts mentioned in the above paragraph come from Sev's second\nmanuscript, written *at least* two generations after the events related in\nit, which includes the arrival of the New Sun and the transformation of Urth\ninto Ushas. It's a done deed. It's all over with. It's in the history books\nand can't be undone. There is no need for anyone to play games, no need to\nmaintain past charades that are now meaningless.\n\nIf Sev knew, or even suspected, that Rudesind had really been Inire, there\nwas no reason not to say so. If BF&O knew Inire had been an agent of Yesod,\nthere was no reason to withhold that information from him in their meeting\nin Apu's tomb.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33820E.2010509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T19:20:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3317DF.20705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/6/2010 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's an assumption many have made. Thecla's story indicates Inire's\nwell-known fondness for and interest in young girls, and the way she\nsays it suggests the kind of matter-of-fact acceptance of perversions\none might find at a court. But without any evidence for sexual contact,\nInire strikes me as a Lewis Carroll figure at most. The truth is we\ndon't know why he is interested in them.\n\nLittle girls are not common enough is TBotNS to be much of a help." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC in \"The Cat\", on their second meeting he tests their memory of \ntheir first meeting. This would suggest a purpose of selection like the \nTorturers' and Librarians' testing of children." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1d29e9285793a498b9e1c1bfb896f699.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T22:39:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C32A650.7070908@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is fond of them.\n\nThere is no evidence at all that he is diddling them.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/5/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we have a\ngold ankle ring and brown, feathery coloration to identify the Armiger's\nDaughter,\nperhaps monkey features, obscured eyes, lust for young girls, artistic\ninterest and\nlosing material possessions are a constellation of traits for\nidentifying Father\nInire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does Inire display carnal interest in young girls?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87bpaknjco.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2010-07-07T01:58:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lewis Carroll was a lifelong bachelor who enjoyed taking nude pictures\nof pre-pubescent girls. If you think Gene Wolfe is alluding to him with\nInire and his looking glass/mirrors and finds both a bit creepy I would\nnot disagree. Still I must guess Wolfe admires Lewis Carroll as he does\nother referenced authors such as J.L. Borges, Rudyard Kipling and Mary\nShelley." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's probably also worth mentioning that several modern historians believe\nthis was nowhere near as shocking as it sounds to modern sensibilities.\nAt the time, photography was very new and photography advocates and\nhobbyists were trying to treat it as an art form akin to painting, with\nvery similar goals. The classical nude, of a variety of ages, was common\nsubject material for painting, and hence it's likely that photography\nenthusiasts considered it suitable subject material for photography as\nwell, for a variety of artistic reasons that don't necessarily have\nanything directly to do with sex or eroticism. There's also some evidence\nthat child nudes were seen as a symbol of innocence and were simply not\nviewed with the approbation that they are today, to the extent that they\nmay have appeared on Christmas cards and the like.\n\nFor much more on this topic, see the work of Hugues Lebailly, who among\nothers has been calling into question the traditional interpretation of\nCarroll's photographic subjects (which are far more varied than just young\ngirls as is often believed).\n\nOn a similar front, there's also some reason to believe that Carroll's\nsupposed preference for young girls over other companions is way overblown\nand is based largely on a few written comments taken out of context. See,\nfor example, ." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33E609.8040900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T02:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<87bpaknjco.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly the Lewis Carroll I had in mind. And yes, when a little \ngirl goes through a looking glass ... it's not a Nabokov reference.\n\nStill, there is a sinister touch to Thecla's tale. Naturally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Russ Allbery wrote:\nLee Berman writes:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lewis Carroll was a lifelong bachelor who enjoyed taking nude pictures\nof pre-pubescent girls. If you think Gene Wolfe is alluding to him with\nInire and his looking glass/mirrors and finds both a bit creepy I would\nnot disagree. Still I must guess Wolfe admires Lewis Carroll as he does\nother referenced authors such as J.L. Borges, Rudyard Kipling and Mary\nShelley.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's probably also worth mentioning that several modern historians believe\nthis was nowhere near as shocking as it sounds to modern sensibilities.\nAt the time, photography was very new and photography advocates and\nhobbyists were trying to treat it as an art form akin to painting, with\nvery similar goals. The classical nude, of a variety of ages, was common\nsubject material for painting, and hence it's likely that photography\nenthusiasts considered it suitable subject material for photography as\nwell, for a variety of artistic reasons that don't necessarily have\nanything directly to do with sex or eroticism. There's also some evidence\nthat child nudes were seen as a symbol of innocence and were simply not\nviewed with the approbation that they are today, to the extent that they\nmay have appeared on Christmas cards and the like.\n\nFor much more on this topic, see the work of Hugues Lebailly, who among\nothers has been calling into question the traditional interpretation of\nCarroll's photographic subjects (which are far more varied than just young\ngirls as is often believed).\n\nOn a similar front, there's also some reason to believe that Carroll's\nsupposed preference for young girls over other companions is way overblown\nand is based largely on a few written comments taken out of context. See,\nfor example, .\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T02:27:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C33E609.8040900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "D.S.>Is there anything monkeylike about noses touching chins?\n \nI did previously post this pic of a proboscis monkey\nhttp://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/proboscis-monkey-adult.jpg\nMight look a bit like Rudesind.\n \n \nHere is one of the S. American uakari which makes a notable appearance\nin BotNS \nhttp://www.konicaminolta.com/kids/animals/library/field/img/bald-uakari_img01-l.jpg\n \nI could see Wolfe getting the inspiration for Father Inire's\nappearance from one of these critters. I note that both these\nmonkeys have reddish hair. As did the Russian/American painter\nNicolai Fechin. (self-portrait with paintbrush http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/fechin3.jpg)\n \nI think it truly could all be unintended coincidence. But since\nWolfe took seven years to produce BotNS I can't rule out that he\nused some of that time to interlace the story with such nearly\nimperceptible connections all intersecting at Father Inire. I \njust consider it a very interesting possibility. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33E75A.3060406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T02:32:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well done. Could be.\n\nAny thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted Inire as a little \nboy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by Fechin as a \nlittle boy?\n\nTo me, it seems impossible. But then Rudesind's clues have no purpose, \nexcept to reveal his character, and his easily distracted yet narrowly \nfocused mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nD.S.>Is there anything monkeylike about noses touching chins?\n \nI did previously post this pic of a proboscis monkey\nhttp://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/proboscis-monkey-adult.jpg\nMight look a bit like Rudesind.\n \n \nHere is one of the S. American uakari which makes a notable appearance\nin BotNS \nhttp://www.konicaminolta.com/kids/animals/library/field/img/bald-uakari_img01-l.jpg\n \nI could see Wolfe getting the inspiration for Father Inire's\nappearance from one of these critters. I note that both these\nmonkeys have reddish hair. As did the Russian/American painter\nNicolai Fechin. (self-portrait with paintbrush http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/fechin3.jpg)\n \nI think it truly could all be unintended coincidence. But since\nWolfe took seven years to produce BotNS I can't rule out that he\nused some of that time to interlace the story with such nearly\nimperceptible connections all intersecting at Father Inire. I \njust consider it a very interesting possibility. \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. \nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33F025.2050007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T03:10:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/06/2010 09:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI could see Wolfe getting the inspiration for Father Inire's\nappearance from one of these critters. I note that both these\nmonkeys have reddish hair. As did the Russian/American painter\nNicolai Fechin. (self-portrait with paintbrush http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/fechin3.jpg)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Librarian gets angry if you call him a monkey.\n\nOook.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33F099.1020503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T03:12:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nD.S.>Is there anything monkeylike about noses touching chins?\n\nI did previously post this pic of a proboscis monkey" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I bet for almost every family of mammals you have members with \nproboscides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/proboscis-monkey-adult.jpg\nMight look a bit like Rudesind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I honestly don't think Rudesind looks like that at all.\nRather like this: http://www.galleryoftheabsurd.com/2006/05/celebrity_optic.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here is one of the S. American uakari which makes a notable appearance\nin BotNS\nhttp://www.konicaminolta.com/kids/animals/library/field/img/bald-uakari_img01-l.jpg" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see a nose touching a chin here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could see Wolfe getting the inspiration for Father Inire's\nappearance from one of these critters. I note that both these\nmonkeys have reddish hair. As did the Russian/American painter\nNicolai Fechin. (self-portrait with paintbrush http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/fechin3.jpg)\n\nI think it truly could all be unintended coincidence. But since\nWolfe took seven years to produce BotNS I can't rule out that he\nused some of that time to interlace the story with such nearly\nimperceptible connections all intersecting at Father Inire. I\njust consider it a very interesting possibility. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what's interesting about it? That's what I've been asking all along.\n\nAnd where's the coincidence?\n\n- Rudesind's nose touches his chin.\n- Are you claiming Fechin was a monkey? Last time I checked he was a russian \nhuman being.\n- FI is said to have monkey-like features and the one time we actually see \nsomeone who is all but introduced as FI, he's... a creature that looks like \na monkey. Not some subtle red-headed person.\n\nYou only see coincidences because you want to. As Horn or someone said, \neverything is connected to everything else. By lowering the bar for \nconnectedness as has been done here, one can find coincidences everywhere. \nBut the 'incidence' part of the coincidences is entirely of yallr own \nmaking. You are connecting dots that you have put there yourselves. That \ncould be interesting if it lead to something, but to what does it lead? What \ndoes it mean if Rudesind is FI instead of an agent of FI or someone who just \nhappens to be there? It actually impoverishes the story.\n\nYou're perfectly within your right to think the way you do, and \ncongrtulations if it makes the book mor enjoyable to you, but what I'd \nhonestly like to know is the value it brings to the reading. Don't tell me \nit explains a lot of coincidences or it's a thematic thing - a story with \ndisjoint motivations is better than one in which everything derives from \nsome central intension. The story gains nothing from Rudesind being FI, it \nloses. If I sound harsh, it's unintended: I really wish someone would say \nwhat would be gained if such speculations were correct.\n\nOn a related note - what's the deal with saying, for instance, that 'Ultan \nis Borges'? Does it mean Ultan's grandmother was english? That Ultan wrote \nEvaristo Carriego or Facing Moon or the Book of Sand? It's one thing to say \nUltan is a homage to Borges or an echo of him, but let's not be carried away." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00698f9328732e7bd00232abea9d7ef3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T03:27:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<87bpaknjco.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dodgson is known to have had relationships with younger, albeit adult,\nwomen whom he had known since childhood.\n\nThis would have been scandalous, but was not considered beyond the pale in\nenlightened circles.\n\nIt was kept quiet by the people who knew about it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lewis Carroll was a lifelong bachelor who enjoyed taking nude pictures\nof pre-pubescent girls. If you think Gene Wolfe is alluding to him with\nInire and his looking glass/mirrors and finds both a bit creepy I would\nnot disagree. Still I must guess Wolfe admires Lewis Carroll as he does\nother referenced authors such as J.L. Borges, Rudyard Kipling and Mary\nShelley." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's probably also worth mentioning that several modern historians believe\nthis was nowhere near as shocking as it sounds to modern sensibilities.\nAt the time, photography was very new and photography advocates and\nhobbyists were trying to treat it as an art form akin to painting, with\nvery similar goals. The classical nude, of a variety of ages, was common\nsubject material for painting, and hence it's likely that photography\nenthusiasts considered it suitable subject material for photography as\nwell, for a variety of artistic reasons that don't necessarily have\nanything directly to do with sex or eroticism. There's also some evidence\nthat child nudes were seen as a symbol of innocence and were simply not\nviewed with the approbation that they are today, to the extent that they\nmay have appeared on Christmas cards and the like.\n\nFor much more on this topic, see the work of Hugues Lebailly, who among\nothers has been calling into question the traditional interpretation of\nCarroll's photographic subjects (which are far more varied than just young\ngirls as is often believed).\n\nOn a similar front, there's also some reason to believe that Carroll's\nsupposed preference for young girls over other companions is way overblown\nand is based largely on a few written comments taken out of context. See,\nfor example, .\n\n--\nRuss Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-07T08:09:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nD.S.>Is there anything monkeylike about noses touching chins?\n\nI did previously post this pic of a proboscis monkey\nhttp://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/proboscis-monkey-adult.jpg\nMight look a bit like Rudesind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand: \"[Old Odilo saw] Father Inire bent nearly double, like a \ngnome in a nursery book, with no more nose than an alouatte\" ('The Cat')\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C346B25.2070706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T11:55:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The nose knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "D.S.>Is there anything monkeylike about noses touching chins?\n\nI did previously post this pic of a proboscis monkey\nhttp://smackamack.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/proboscis-monkey-adult.jpg\nMight look a bit like Rudesind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand: \"[Old Odilo saw] Father Inire bent nearly double, \nlike a gnome in a nursery book, with no more nose than an alouatte\" \n('The Cat')\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C346B25.2070706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawny- Was intending to ask about this on list but Tim got \nin there ahead of me - making me wonder if there might be a 'consensus'\nregarding Borski ... if he's on this list I have missed him, Ohai Robert\nif you're out there, I have read your stuff with huge amounts of interest\nbut also some skepticism!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYeah, Borski was on this list, before my time, in the early 2000's I think\nit was. I think there is sort of a concensus that he took some of his ideas\nand ran with them so far and so fast that they are difficult for anyone else\nto follow. And that he left the list because he couldn't stand the criticism.\nStill I appreciate his efforts to publish his ideas and get them out there.\nSome of the other old grand masters hold their cards too close to the vest, \nperhaps also fearing such criticism. This doesn't allow us to pick their \nbrains or participate in the interactive process which I enjoy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted Inire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by Fechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find suggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a boy \nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy? Naturally we jump to the conclusion that the great\nartist was Fechin. But the painting of the boy included paint brushes \n(and a tangerine). Many famous artists have done their own self-portrait \ndepicting themselves with brushes (including Picasso, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, \nChagall AND Nicolai Fechin) so that could be a sly way of hinting that the boy, \nRudesind, was Fechin, not just as subject, but artist also. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A.P. Marques- But what's interesting about it?.. That's what I've been asking\nall along. You only see coincidences because you want to. As Horn or someone \nsaid, everything is connected to everything else. By lowering the bar for \nconnectedness as has been done here, one can find coincidences everywhere. \nBut the 'incidence' part of the coincidences is entirely of yallr own \nmaking. You are connecting dots that you have put there yourselves. That \ncould be interesting if it lead to something, but to what does it lead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nA nice metaphor as we see Severian on his back, looking at stars and making\nconnections into constellations (including, preciently, a peryton/Hethor \nspying on him). I have not created the dots any more than Severian has created\nall the stars (well, maybe he created one). Gene Wolfe created all the dots. The\nquestion is which, if any, should be connected.\n \nFor example, we have Father Inire's mirrors, Hethor's mirrors and mirror sails\non Tzadkiel's ship. Three dots. Should we connect them? I think most would say \nyes, they all seem to work as teleporters, sometimes for weird creatures. \n \nFather Inire is an alien. Hethor was a sailor on an interstellar/universal \nspaceship. Both show suggestions of an unhealthy attraction to young human women.\nShould we connect these two characters based on that and the mirror connection? \nOr should we not connect them because it disrupts our image of Father Inire and \ndoesn't fit with the story we know and love?\n \nFWIW I find much of Greek mythology to have a similar weird understructure. Was Zeus\nthe mighty, heroic god that I (and Gene Wolfe?) admired as a child, who defeated the \nmonstrous Titans, including Typhon, and ruled among the clouds with fatherly grace?\nOr was he a creepy guy who killed his father and married his sister and spent his \nspare time using his power to seduce/rape young girls and boys like Europa and \nGanymede? He is both, right? But I had to mature as a reader and as a person before\nI could see both sides. \n\nFor me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There is a main\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co-extensively within it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it appropriate to think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you don't think there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search enjoyable I can \nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years enjoying it on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more.\n \n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<518880c17b59383986c11218a321beec.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:09:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good insights, Lee.\n\nThe problem with this list is that there are a certain number of pedants.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jane Delawny- Was intending to ask about this on list but Tim got\nin there ahead of me - making me wonder if there might be a 'consensus'\nregarding Borski ... if he's on this list I have missed him, Ohai Robert\nif you're out there, I have read your stuff with huge amounts of interest\nbut also some skepticism!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, Borski was on this list, before my time, in the early 2000's I think\nit was. I think there is sort of a concensus that he took some of his\nideas\nand ran with them so far and so fast that they are difficult for anyone\nelse\nto follow. And that he left the list because he couldn't stand the\ncriticism.\nStill I appreciate his efforts to publish his ideas and get them out\nthere.\nSome of the other old grand masters hold their cards too close to the\nvest,\nperhaps also fearing such criticism. This doesn't allow us to pick their\nbrains or participate in the interactive process which I enjoy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy? Naturally we jump to the conclusion that the\ngreat\nartist was Fechin. But the painting of the boy included paint brushes\n(and a tangerine). Many famous artists have done their own self-portrait\ndepicting themselves with brushes (including Picasso, Van Gogh, Rembrandt,\nChagall AND Nicolai Fechin) so that could be a sly way of hinting that the\nboy,\nRudesind, was Fechin, not just as subject, but artist also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A.P. Marques- But what's interesting about it?.. That's what I've been\nasking\nall along. You only see coincidences because you want to. As Horn or\nsomeone\nsaid, everything is connected to everything else. By lowering the bar for\nconnectedness as has been done here, one can find coincidences\neverywhere.\nBut the 'incidence' part of the coincidences is entirely of yallr own\nmaking. You are connecting dots that you have put there yourselves. That\ncould be interesting if it lead to something, but to what does it lead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A nice metaphor as we see Severian on his back, looking at stars and\nmaking\nconnections into constellations (including, preciently, a peryton/Hethor\nspying on him). I have not created the dots any more than Severian has\ncreated\nall the stars (well, maybe he created one). Gene Wolfe created all the\ndots. The\nquestion is which, if any, should be connected.\n\nFor example, we have Father Inire's mirrors, Hethor's mirrors and mirror\nsails\non Tzadkiel's ship. Three dots. Should we connect them? I think most would\nsay\nyes, they all seem to work as teleporters, sometimes for weird creatures.\n\nFather Inire is an alien. Hethor was a sailor on an interstellar/universal\nspaceship. Both show suggestions of an unhealthy attraction to young human\nwomen.\nShould we connect these two characters based on that and the mirror\nconnection?\nOr should we not connect them because it disrupts our image of Father\nInire and\ndoesn't fit with the story we know and love?\n\nFWIW I find much of Greek mythology to have a similar weird\nunderstructure. Was Zeus\nthe mighty, heroic god that I (and Gene Wolfe?) admired as a child, who\ndefeated the\nmonstrous Titans, including Typhon, and ruled among the clouds with\nfatherly grace?\nOr was he a creepy guy who killed his father and married his sister and\nspent his\nspare time using his power to seduce/rape young girls and boys like Europa\nand\nGanymede? He is both, right? But I had to mature as a reader and as a\nperson before\nI could see both sides.\n\nFor me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There is\na main\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co-extensively\nwithin it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it appropriate\nto think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you don't\nthink there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search enjoyable\nI can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years enjoying\nit on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more.\n\n\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C347E7A.7030700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<518880c17b59383986c11218a321beec.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/07/2010 08:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nGood insights, Lee.\n\nThe problem with this list is that there are a certain number of pedants.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the....\n\noh, never mind.\n\nAlso, see \"The House of Asterion.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:48:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\nOn the other hand: \"[Old Odilo saw] Father Inire bent nearly double, like a\ngnome in a nursery book, with no more nose than an alouatte\" ('The Cat')" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to me to settle the matter. Rudesind is not Inire--they have\nvery different physical appearances and no evidence for them being one and\nthe same besides physical appearances has been presented." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:53:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFather Inire is an alien. Hethor was a sailor on an interstellar/universal\nspaceship. Both show suggestions of an unhealthy attraction to young human\nwomen.\nShould we connect these two characters based on that and the mirror\nconnection?\nOr should we not connect them because it disrupts our image of Father Inire\nand\ndoesn't fit with the story we know and love?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I thought we'd decided that Hethor's attraction is to sex\ndolls/robots, but that he might possibly settle for the right kind of human\nwoman (maybe one who role-plays as a sex doll). As for Inire, it's not\nclear to me that his fondness for little girls is a sexual interest at all\n(or even that he is, properly speaking, capable of such sexual interest)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW I find much of Greek mythology to have a similar weird understructure.\nWas Zeus\nthe mighty, heroic god that I (and Gene Wolfe?) admired as a child, who\ndefeated the\nmonstrous Titans, including Typhon, and ruled among the clouds with\nfatherly grace?\nOr was he a creepy guy who killed his father and married his sister and\nspent his\nspare time using his power to seduce/rape young girls and boys like Europa\nand\nGanymede? He is both, right? But I had to mature as a reader and as a\nperson before\nI could see both sides.\n\nFor me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There is a\nmain\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co-extensively\nwithin it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it appropriate\nto think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you don't\nthink there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search enjoyable\nI can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years enjoying\nit on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more.\n\n\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:59:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/07/07, ?s 14:04, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. \nThere is a main\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co- \nextensively within it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it \nappropriate to think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you \ndon't think there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search \nenjoyable I can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years \nenjoying it on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's not at all what I'm saying. Of course there are loadheaps \nof dots to connect. What I'm arguing against is their wanton \nconnection -precisely because there is so much to work with. That's \nwhy I insist on results: don't connect things because you believe they \nfulfill some pattern - patterns are a dime a dozen. Rather, connect \nthem if they lead to novelty. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<520E36C4-BC0B-4DFE-8F64-BC9EB1D9BF4C@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T15:12:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, that is a very heartening quote from you.\n\nIt seems most of the undercarriage of this mailing list (both as a long time reader and recent participant) seems to be built around digging under the surface story.\n\nMaybe sometimes so much so that the forest is lost for the leaves on the trees.\n\nAll of that said, I think Tzadkiel's appearance in UotNS (a volume Gene vehemently felt did NOT need to be written to help us understand the tetralogy) as a shapeshifter, is most positively a clue to a character (characters) in the first four volumes.\n\nWhat greater target for this than Inire? Who else? The other mask clues are revealed, but I think they serve as clues for the bigger mysteries, the ones Wolfe does not pander to us to answer, but uses clue-context (Agia/Agilus and the ribbons, chance encounters with Hildegrin, old Autarch making sneaky appearances, etc.).\n\nAnyhow, thank you for that analogy below, it brightened my day.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nFor me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There is a main\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co-extensively within it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it appropriate to think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you don't think there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search enjoyable I can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years enjoying it on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34A1F4.6030501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T15:49:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<520E36C4-BC0B-4DFE-8F64-BC9EB1D9BF4C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (07-07-2010 16:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All of that said, I think Tzadkiel's appearance in UotNS (a volume Gene\nvehemently felt did NOT need to be written to help us understand the\ntetralogy)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I just have to say that I quite never did grasp that idea. If it means \nthat the BNS can be considered complete without UNS, obviously it can. But \nthere is no way that UNS doesn't introduce ideas that just couldn't be \ngotten from the BNS alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as a shapeshifter, is most positively a clue to a character\n(characters) in the first four volumes.\n\nWhat greater target for this than Inire? Who else? The other mask clues\nare revealed, but I think they serve as clues for the bigger mysteries,\nthe ones Wolfe does not pander to us to answer, but uses clue-context\n(Agia/Agilus and the ribbons, chance encounters with Hildegrin, old\nAutarch making sneaky appearances, etc.)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the \ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what? \nWhat happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is \nenabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't \ngrasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered \nthis so far.\n\nIt's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary Morstan's \ncousin. What would that contribute to the story?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<46e8990bda0da3151c84f698178b8c1a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T15:56:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<520E36C4-BC0B-4DFE-8F64-BC9EB1D9BF4C@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene's correct.\n\nEvery detail of UotNS may be worked out from information given in BotNS.\n\nPerhaps not the names of characters, but I wouldn't be totally sure about\nthat.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee, that is a very heartening quote from you.\n\nIt seems most of the undercarriage of this mailing list (both as a long\ntime reader and recent participant) seems to be built around digging under\nthe surface story.\n\nMaybe sometimes so much so that the forest is lost for the leaves on the\ntrees.\n\nAll of that said, I think Tzadkiel's appearance in UotNS (a volume Gene\nvehemently felt did NOT need to be written to help us understand the\ntetralogy) as a shapeshifter, is most positively a clue to a character\n(characters) in the first four volumes.\n\nWhat greater target for this than Inire? Who else? The other mask clues\nare revealed, but I think they serve as clues for the bigger mysteries,\nthe ones Wolfe does not pander to us to answer, but uses clue-context\n(Agia/Agilus and the ribbons, chance encounters with Hildegrin, old\nAutarch making sneaky appearances, etc.).\n\nAnyhow, thank you for that analogy below, it brightened my day.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There\nis a main\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co-extensively\nwithin it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it\nappropriate to think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you\ndon't think there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search\nenjoyable I can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years\nenjoying it on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:04:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<46e8990bda0da3151c84f698178b8c1a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:56 AM, wrote:\nGene's correct.\n\nEvery detail of UotNS may be worked out from information given in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think I'd go so far as \"every detail,\" but certainly the broad\noutlines, both of plot and of -- for lack of a better word --\ncosmology can be. My first reaction when I read Urth was\ndisappointment; it seemed such an _unnecessary_ book..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:07:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're you.\n\nGod must have had some purpose.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:56 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gene's correct.\n\nEvery detail of UotNS may be worked out from information given in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I'd go so far as \"every detail,\" but certainly the broad\noutlines, both of plot and of -- for lack of a better word --\ncosmology can be. My first reaction when I read Urth was\ndisappointment; it seemed such an _unnecessary_ book...\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34A8B4.3060806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:17:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 17:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:56 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gene's correct.\n\nEvery detail of UotNS may be worked out from information given in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I'd go so far as \"every detail,\" but certainly the broad\noutlines, both of plot and of -- for lack of a better word --\ncosmology can be. My first reaction when I read Urth was\ndisappointment; it seemed such an _unnecessary_ book..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you can sightsee the \nbroad outlines in 4?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:31:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34A8B4.3060806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you can sightsee the\nbroad outlines in 4?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; I meant that, having spent four days in Stamboul, a fifth day that takes me\nback to the things I've already seen seems pointless. I'd rather see something\nnew.\n\nUotNS was not _quite_ that disappointing -- there were definitely new vistas.\nBut I felt that the driver was taking me to a lot of places I'd been before." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:38:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34A8B4.3060806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And it's more money for Gene.\n\nThat's the best thing about it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 17:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:56 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gene's correct.\n\nEvery detail of UotNS may be worked out from information given in\nBotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think I'd go so far as \"every detail,\" but certainly the broad\noutlines, both of plot and of -- for lack of a better word --\ncosmology can be. My first reaction when I read Urth was\ndisappointment; it seemed such an _unnecessary_ book..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you can sightsee\nthe\nbroad outlines in 4?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7a63b29c242cf654086360cdf5e4c0ad.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clap! Clap!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you can sightsee\nthe\nbroad outlines in 4?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No; I meant that, having spent four days in Stamboul, a fifth day that\ntakes me\nback to the things I've already seen seems pointless. I'd rather see\nsomething\nnew.\n\nUotNS was not _quite_ that disappointing -- there were definitely new\nvistas.\nBut I felt that the driver was taking me to a lot of places I'd been\nbefore.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34AE9B.5050406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:43:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l said:\nMy first reaction when I read Urth was\ndisappointment; it seemed such an_unnecessary_ book..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio said:\nYou mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you\ncan sightsee the broad outlines in 4?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l said:\nNo; I meant that, having spent four days in Stamboul,\na fifth day that takes me>back to the things I've\nalready seen seems pointless. I'd rather see something\nnew. UotNS was not _quite_ that disappointing --\nthere were definitely new vistas. But I felt that the\ndriver was taking me to a lot of places I'd been before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...would you say The Silmarillion was an unnecessary book?\n\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4de4f733c8f50a7a83df76733eab5688.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34AE9B.5050406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Silmarillion was the original book.\n\n," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l said:\nMy first reaction when I read Urth was\ndisappointment; it seemed such an_unnecessary_ book..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio said:\nYou mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you\ncan sightsee the broad outlines in 4?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l said:\nNo; I meant that, having spent four days in Stamboul,\na fifth day that takes me>back to the things I've\nalready seen seems pointless. I'd rather see something\nnew. UotNS was not _quite_ that disappointing --\nthere were definitely new vistas. But I felt that the\ndriver was taking me to a lot of places I'd been before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm...would you say The Silmarillion was an unnecessary book?\n\n\nu+169b\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34AE9B.5050406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:43 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nHmmm...would you say The Silmarillion was an unnecessary book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heavens, no. There were only slight hints of it in _LotR_. For me, any one of\n\"The Ainulindale,\" \"Of Turin Turambar,\" and \"The Fall of Gondolin\" entirely\njustifies the existence of the _Silm_.\n\nI would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34B032.50800@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:49:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 17:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean spending 5 days in Stamboul is unnecessary if you can sightsee the\nbroad outlines in 4?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No; I meant that, having spent four days in Stamboul, a fifth day that takes me\nback to the things I've already seen seems pointless. I'd rather see something\nnew.\n\nUotNS was not _quite_ that disappointing -- there were definitely new vistas.\nBut I felt that the driver was taking me to a lot of places I'd been before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may not have been much novelty in UNS, but certainly it strenghthens \nthe story. Without UNS, may things would be wild guesses; with UNS, they can \nbe built on in order to guess further. At least that's my impression." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:51:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34B032.50800@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There may not have been much novelty in UNS, but certainly it strenghthens\nthe story. Without UNS, may things would be wild guesses; with UNS, they can\nbe built on in order to guess further. At least that's my impression." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree completely. And I need to reiterate: disappointment was my\n_initial_ reaction. My esteem for the book has grown over time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34B202.5050507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:57:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 17:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:43 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm...would you say The Silmarillion was an unnecessary book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heavens, no. There were only slight hints of it in _LotR_. For me, any one of\n\"The Ainulindale,\" \"Of Turin Turambar,\" and \"The Fall of Gondolin\" entirely\njustifies the existence of the _Silm_.\n\nI would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:02:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34B202.5050507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is indeed a book. What it is not is a novel." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34B453.8010202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:07:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34A1F4.6030501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 10:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "* It would suggest a serious rift in her family, since supposedly she \nhad no family to take her in after being orphaned.\n* It would help confirm Watson as heterosexual, and his relationship \nwith Holmes as platonic. :P" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34B78F.2010801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:21:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34B453.8010202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (07-07-2010 18:07):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 10:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* It would suggest a serious rift in her family, since supposedly she\nhad no family to take her in after being orphaned.\n* It would help confirm Watson as heterosexual, and his relationship\nwith Holmes as platonic. :P" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well played." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34B82C.9020209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 18:02):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is indeed a book. What it is not is a novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply flawed?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:28:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34B82C.9020209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 18:02):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is indeed a book. What it is not is a novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply flawed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:29:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34A1F4.6030501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any clue to Inire is worth considering and processed however you see fit. Same with speculation on the humanity of other characters.\n\nIf Tzdakiel's shapeshifting, Inire's mirrors, Hethor's time traveling pets, time traveling ships, Severian as Apu Punchai is all fair game, then it stands to reason that Inire, who is CLEARLY controlling the goings on of the entire planet, appear in many aspects of Severian's life (unknowingly to Severian) to control his journey, instill character traits, build the right memories, all so that his final test on Yesod comes off successful.\n\nIf Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could Inire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into Fechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on Severian's journey, isn't that important?\n\nHow is that not important to at least consider? Disagreeing with it is one thing, disregarding this speculation out of hand seems to be a bit brash.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the characters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what? What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is enabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't grasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered this so far.\n\nIt's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary Morstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:30:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nAny clue to Inire is worth considering and processed however you see fit. Same with speculation on the humanity of other characters.\n\nIf Tzdakiel's shapeshifting, Inire's mirrors, Hethor's time traveling pets, time traveling ships, Severian as Apu Punchai is all fair game, then it stands to reason that Inire, who is CLEARLY controlling the goings on of the entire planet, appear in many aspects of Severian's life (unknowingly to Severian) to control his journey, instill character traits, build the right memories, all so that his final test on Yesod comes off successful.\n\nIf Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could Inire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into Fechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on Severian's journey, isn't that important?\n\nHow is that not important to at least consider? Disagreeing with it is one thing, disregarding this speculation out of hand seems to be a bit brash.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the characters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what? What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is enabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't grasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered this so far.\n\nIt's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary Morstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry for the blank message; I clicked when I should have clacked.\n\nAnyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAny clue to Inire is worth considering and processed however you see fit. Same with speculation on the humanity of other characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So if I were to speculate, say, that Dorcas was not human, would that\nbe worth considering? Why or why not?\n\nI think speculations are interesting and worth considering to the\nextent that they are backed by evidence from the text at hand." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could Inire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into Fechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on Severian's journey, isn't that important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, IF he is doing these things, it's important. However, it seems to\nme that the textual evidence given that he is doing these things is,\nthus far, flimsy at best. That he is spying on Severian's journey?\nProbably. That he is Fechin and Rudisind? I see no substantive\nevidence.\n\nI realize that you are answering the question \"Why does this matter?\"\nI am suggesting that you are right -- it does matter -- IF it is true\n-- but that I see little reason to think it true." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34BB24.7070801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:36:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 18:28):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 18:02):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is indeed a book. What it is not is a novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply flawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:36:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nIf Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could\nInire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into\nFechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on Severian's\njourney, isn't that important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where's the evidence that Inire, in particular, has the same power-set as\nTzadkiel? As I understand is, Tzadkiel is a Hierogrammate and has certain\npowers thereby--and it is not even clear that all other Hierogrammates\npossess the same powers.\n\nInire seems to be a Hierodule. Hierodules use illusions to conceal their\nfacial features on occasion, but they do not appear to have Tzadkiel-esque\nshapeshifting powers.\n\nIs there evidence that Inire is in fact a Hierogrammate, or that Hierodules\nin general can shapeshift?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the\ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is\nenabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't\ngrasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered\nthis so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34BC71.8040301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:42:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (07-07-2010 18:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any clue to Inire is worth considering and processed however you see fit.\nSame with speculation on the humanity of other characters.\n\nIf Tzdakiel's shapeshifting, Inire's mirrors, Hethor's time traveling\npets, time traveling ships, Severian as Apu Punchai is all fair game,\nthen it stands to reason that Inire, who is CLEARLY controlling the\ngoings on of the entire planet, appear in many aspects of Severian's life\n(unknowingly to Severian) to control his journey, instill character\ntraits, build the right memories, all so that his final test on Yesod\ncomes off successful.\n\nIf Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could\nInire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into\nFechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on\nSeverian's journey, isn't that important?\n\nHow is that not important to at least consider? Disagreeing with it is\none thing, disregarding this speculation out of hand seems to be a bit\nbrash." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can it be important if I've been asking forever for its implications and\nno one produces any? I'm not disagreeing with it. I'm asking what does it\nenable that wasn't there before. I'm generally asking that in relation to\nmuch of the specualtion that is often done. You do it again: try to justify\nthat, if we know something happens somewhere, then it can happen somewhere\nelse. So you say we are allowed to imagine a shapeshifting FI because there\nis a shapeshifting Tzadkiel. That doesn't bother me (of course you can have \na shapeshifting FI). I'm not dissing some given speculation on the basis of \nits plausibility, but rather on the basis of its usefulness." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:43:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34BB24.7070801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, not a novel. The infodumps were as much for the author's working out\nof his creative impulse as anything else. Personally, I'm fascinated by\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard slog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34BDF3.8030308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:48:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 18:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire seems to be a Hierodule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand this is the majority view, has anyone addressed\n- the way FI seems to act according to processes much more akin to those of \nhumans when compared to the rest of the hierofolk?\n- his extended life span?\n\nI mean, from what we know of FI, he works like a human/martian/aldebaranian \nbeing to me, not some other class of being with strange mental processes, \nwhich is what the hierodules we do know suggest to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00fbd7f9d5f8be170a16166e43fb3a39.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:54:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was the original book which was wisely set aside when the author\nrealized that it would not make him money and might lose him some.\n\nLater the situation was different.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:43 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm...would you say The Silmarillion was an unnecessary book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heavens, no. There were only slight hints of it in _LotR_. For me, any one\nof\n\"The Ainulindale,\" \"Of Turin Turambar,\" and \"The Fall of Gondolin\"\nentirely\njustifies the existence of the _Silm_.\n\nI would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:54:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C34BDF3.8030308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 18:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inire seems to be a Hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understand this is the majority view, has anyone addressed\n- the way FI seems to act according to processes much more akin to those of\nhumans when compared to the rest of the hierofolk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's hard to answer since FI is (almost) entirely offstage and it\nisn't clear according to what processes he acts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- his extended life span?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the text mentions that his lifespan is unusual for his \"kind.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:00:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- his extended life span?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe the text mentions that his lifespan is unusual for his \"kind.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right--I think there's a deliberate mystery as to by what means Inire, the\nhierodule, extends his lifespan (someone has proposed that Inire's lifespan\nis actually normal, but that he makes extensive use of time travel to only\ncatch the \"good parts\" of history). But we're supposed to understand that\nhe's a hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:03:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34B202.5050507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a set of scriptures.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 17:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:43 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hmmm...would you say The Silmarillion was an unnecessary book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heavens, no. There were only slight hints of it in _LotR_. For me, any\none of\n\"The Ainulindale,\" \"Of Turin Turambar,\" and \"The Fall of Gondolin\"\nentirely\njustifies the existence of the _Silm_.\n\nI would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5f9df6f5191494dbbae3ddd2bae495c4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:03:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is, in fact, a set of scriptures.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would say that it was a deeply flawed book, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, it wasn't a book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is indeed a book. What it is not is a novel.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<457746bcd252e236e4fd14177fa5017f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34B453.8010202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Men have platonic friendships.\n\nDo you doubt this?\n\nHave you decided upon your forfeit?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 10:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* It would suggest a serious rift in her family, since supposedly she\nhad no family to take her in after being orphaned.\n* It would help confirm Watson as heterosexual, and his relationship\nwith Holmes as platonic. :P\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:05:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<5f9df6f5191494dbbae3ddd2bae495c4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:03 AM, wrote:\nIt is, in fact, a set of scriptures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost. What it is is an attempt to create a mythology from scratch\n(albeit using patterns from other mythologies)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C23B.2090701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:06:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 19:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n 2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >:\n > > - his extended life span?\n\n I believe the text mentions that his lifespan is unusual for his \"kind.\"\n\nRight--I think there's a deliberate mystery as to by what means Inire,\nthe hierodule, extends his lifespan (someone has proposed that Inire's\nlifespan is actually normal, but that he makes extensive use of time\ntravel to only catch the \"good parts\" of history)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that's the first thought, but then there's little way you can spread \nsome 20 years over a millennium and still be all that pervasive. I mean, he \nmust spend time with people!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we're supposed\nto understand that he's a hierodule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not some other kind of being?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C2AD.2020707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (07-07-2010 18:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 18:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Inire seems to be a Hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I understand this is the majority view, has anyone addressed - the way\nFI seems to act according to processes much more akin to those of\nhumans when compared to the rest of the hierofolk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's hard to answer since FI is (almost) entirely offstage and it isn't\nclear according to what processes he acts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't know - there's that letter, which sounds like human speech\nmuch more than anythign we get from the triad. There's FI going to rescue\nthe old Autarch... it all sounds normal to me. Not like some beings who\ndon't even work in linear time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:10:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are the model for that character.\n\nHave we worked together?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any clue to Inire is worth considering and processed however you see fit.\nSame with speculation on the humanity of other characters.\n\nIf Tzdakiel's shapeshifting, Inire's mirrors, Hethor's time traveling\npets, time traveling ships, Severian as Apu Punchai is all fair game, then\nit stands to reason that Inire, who is CLEARLY controlling the goings on\nof the entire planet, appear in many aspects of Severian's life\n(unknowingly to Severian) to control his journey, instill character\ntraits, build the right memories, all so that his final test on Yesod\ncomes off successful.\n\nIf Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could\nInire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into\nFechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on\nSeverian's journey, isn't that important?\n\nHow is that not important to at least consider? Disagreeing with it is one\nthing, disregarding this speculation out of hand seems to be a bit brash.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the\ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then\nwhat? What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story\nis enabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we\ndon't grasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has\nanswered this so far.\n\nIt's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:12:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C34C23B.2090701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 19:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, that's the first thought, but then there's little way you can spread\nsome 20 years over a millennium and still be all that pervasive. I mean, he\nmust spend time with people!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It certainly is far from a perfect explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we're supposed\nto understand that he's a hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not some other kind of being?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm eager to consider any kind of being that there is textual evidence for.\nHe himself refers to his own kind in his letter, though, doesn't he? So\nunless he's lying, or there's some more direct set of information to rely\non, what kind of being other than humans has Severian encountered?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:12:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "you lost me.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 2:10 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYou are the model for that character.\n\nHave we worked together?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any clue to Inire is worth considering and processed however you see fit.\nSame with speculation on the humanity of other characters.\n\nIf Tzdakiel's shapeshifting, Inire's mirrors, Hethor's time traveling\npets, time traveling ships, Severian as Apu Punchai is all fair game, then\nit stands to reason that Inire, who is CLEARLY controlling the goings on\nof the entire planet, appear in many aspects of Severian's life\n(unknowingly to Severian) to control his journey, instill character\ntraits, build the right memories, all so that his final test on Yesod\ncomes off successful.\n\nIf Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster. Could\nInire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into Inire, into\nFechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things, and spying on\nSeverian's journey, isn't that important?\n\nHow is that not important to at least consider? Disagreeing with it is one\nthing, disregarding this speculation out of hand seems to be a bit brash.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the\ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then\nwhat? What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story\nis enabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we\ndon't grasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has\nanswered this so far.\n\nIt's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35a358abc24ab98f5ab839c6831147aa.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:13:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It can't be both?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9125d8c2a0fb1f8b257700b5871c7136.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:14:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C34BDF3.8030308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humans can extend their lifespan.\n\nWhy should not these other critters be so able?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 18:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inire seems to be a Hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understand this is the majority view, has anyone addressed\n- the way FI seems to act according to processes much more akin to those\nof\nhumans when compared to the rest of the hierofolk?\n- his extended life span?\n\nI mean, from what we know of FI, he works like a\nhuman/martian/aldebaranian\nbeing to me, not some other class of being with strange mental processes,\nwhich is what the hierodules we do know suggest to me.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28dacf2b6b1e437360771fe2f9845bcd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:17:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is your opinion.\n\nIt is without doubt a set of scriptures.\n\nGlad to see you got over pissing your pants.\n\nYou'd've made a realer fag, you know?\n\nIt still throws me when a hetro guy cringes in fear for no apparent reason.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:03 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is, in fact, a set of scriptures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Almost. What it is is an attempt to create a mythology from scratch\n(albeit using patterns from other mythologies).\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:19:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<28dacf2b6b1e437360771fe2f9845bcd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is this garbage, Brunians?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:17 PM, wrote:\nThis is your opinion.\n\nIt is without doubt a set of scriptures.\n\nGlad to see you got over pissing your pants.\n\nYou'd've made a realer fag, you know?\n\nIt still throws me when a hetro guy cringes in fear for no apparent reason.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:03 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is, in fact, a set of scriptures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Almost. What it is is an attempt to create a mythology from scratch\n(albeit using patterns from other mythologies).\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:22:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which?\n\nPeople who want to be friends call me Josh.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is this garbage, Brunians?\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:17 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is your opinion.\n\nIt is without doubt a set of scriptures.\n\nGlad to see you got over pissing your pants.\n\nYou'd've made a realer fag, you know?\n\nIt still throws me when a hetro guy cringes in fear for no apparent\nreason.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:03 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is, in fact, a set of scriptures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Almost. What it is is an attempt to create a mythology from scratch\n(albeit using patterns from other mythologies).\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, not a novel. The infodumps were as much for the author's working\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. Personally, I'm fascinated by\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard slog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:23:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why the slur?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<28dacf2b6b1e437360771fe2f9845bcd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:17 AM, wrote:\nThis is your opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was also Tolkien's, as expressed through many letters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is without doubt a set of scriptures.\n\nGlad to see you got over pissing your pants.\n\nYou'd've made a realer fag, you know?\n\nIt still throws me when a hetro guy cringes in fear for no apparent reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not cringe in fear. I use the tools society provides.\n\nAnd I'm sorry to see you participating in such blatant homo-hate. Some\nof the bravest men I've known have been queer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:25:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. Ergo, Silmarillion and all of his\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, wrote:\nThe man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it deeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, not a novel. ?The infodumps were as much for the author's working\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. ?Personally, I'm fascinated by\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard slog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C6AF.9060709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:25:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " If Zak can change from a strange dwarf thing to a furry monster.\n Could Inire change from a red wizened ape who could be a man, into\n Inire, into Fechin, into Rudesind? If he IS doing these things,\n and spying on Severian's journey, isn't that important?\n\nWhere's the evidence that Inire, in particular, has the same power-set \nas Tzadkiel? As I understand is, Tzadkiel is a Hierogrammate and has \ncertain powers thereby--and it is not even clear that all other \nHierogrammates possess the same powers. Inire seems to be a \nHierodule. Hierodules use illusions to conceal their facial features \non occasion, but they do not appear to have Tzadkiel-esque \nshapeshifting powers.Is there evidence that Inire is in fact a \nHierogrammate, or that Hierodules in general can shapeshift?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well....if there are reddish furry and monkey signifiers connected to \nInire and lots of random human and non-human characters appearing with \nthose signifiers, and Inire is never in the same room with those \ncharacters at the same time, then isn't that in itself evidence (albeit \nnot conclusive) that Inire can shapeshift...and therefore is a \nHierogrammate? I mean, the facts that Clark Kent is never around when \nSuperman is and that both have a special relationship with Lois \nLane...those don't PROVE that Clark Kent = Superman. But it is evidence \nin favor of the theory right?\n\nDoes it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I \nmean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n > I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of\n the characters that appear throughout the book are Inire in\n disguise, then what? What happens? What doors open? What new\n understanding of the story is enabled? What's the net worth of\n such a knowledge? What is it that we don't grasp about the book\n that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered this so far.\n >\n > It's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\n Morstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:30:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34C6AF.9060709@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:25 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nWell....if there are reddish furry and monkey signifiers connected to Inire\nand lots of random human and non-human characters appearing with those\nsignifiers, and Inire is never in the same room with those characters at the\nsame time, then isn't that in itself evidence (albeit not conclusive) that\nInire can shapeshift...and therefore is a Hierogrammate? I mean, the facts\nthat Clark Kent is never around when Superman is and that both have a\nspecial relationship with Lois Lane...those don't PROVE that Clark Kent =\nSuperman. But it is evidence in favor of the theory right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know who else is rarely seen with Superman, if ever?\n\nWally West." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I mean,\nSuperman still has to rescue Lois, right?\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the\ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is\nenabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't\ngrasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered\nthis so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's as if we posited that Watson's second wife was in fact Mary\nMorstan's cousin. What would that contribute to the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C853.7040400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:32:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well....if there are reddish furry and monkey signifiers connected to \nInire and\nlots of random human and non-human characters appearing with those \nsignifiers,\nand Inire is never in the same room with those characters at the same \ntime, then\nisn't that in itself evidence (albeit not conclusive) that Inire can \nshapeshift...and\ntherefore is a Hierogrammate? I mean, the facts that Clark Kent is \nnever around\nwhen Superman is and that both have a special relationship with Lois \nLane...those\ndon't PROVE that Clark Kent = Superman. But it is evidence in favor \nof the theory right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know who else is rarely seen with Superman, if ever?\nWally West." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We call that a competing theory.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C8AF.70507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:34:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34C6AF.9060709@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I\nmean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Superman were not Clark, where would he have met Lois? Ok, she's a\njournalist and he's a public figure. If Superman were someone else other\nthan Clark, wouldn't he have other singificant people in his alternate life\nwhom we know zilch about? Among whom probably some love interest.\n\nKent being Superman doesn't change the story because in the sorty that's \nprecisely who Kent is. Kent not being Superman would certainly call for a \nquite different story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:35:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:30 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nYou know who else is rarely seen with Superman, if ever?\n\nWally West." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, the fact that West mostly hangs out in Central City while\nSuperman hangs out in Metropolis _might_ have something to do with\nthis..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:36:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:30 AM, John Watkins \nwrote:\nOf course, the fact that West mostly hangs out in Central City while\nSuperman hangs out in Metropolis _might_ have something to do with\nthis..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Non-dispositive. If West is Superman, the commute is pretty short." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34CC53.8080700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:49:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34C8AF.70507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 1:34 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I\nmean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Superman were not Clark, where would he have met Lois? Ok, she's a\njournalist and he's a public figure. If Superman were someone else other\nthan Clark, wouldn't he have other singificant people in his alternate \nlife\nwhom we know zilch about? Among whom probably some love interest.\nKent being Superman doesn't change the story because in the sorty \nthat's precisely who Kent is. Kent not being Superman would certainly \ncall for a quite different story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was being factitious in order to make a point. If Inire were also \nvariously Rudesind and a monkey, it would affect the story if only that \nit would mean Inire might be a Hierogrammate. It would mean that the \ngrammates were affecting humanity directly. I say \"might\" because we \ndon't really know Hierodules can't shapeshift. If he is a Hierodules and \ncan shape-shift then it means Hierodules can shapeshift. And familiarity \nwith Wolfe's other novels shows that Inire wouldn't have to be able to \nshape-shift in order to look like someone totally different.\n\nIt's not that I have an opinion either way. It's just that I don't think \ntheories should be countered with mere hand-waving.Ultimately, much that \ngoes on in a Wolfe novel is unprovable if your standards for proof are \nat all stringent. The best one can hope for is to prove that something \nis flatly denied in the text in a way that a liar would not undermine \n(which is very difficult in itself). Think of how the details in UotNS \nhave affected the way we understand tBotNS. Then consider that Wolfe had \nnot intended to write UotNS.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34CD67.5070700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:54:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34CC53.8080700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was being factitious in order to make a point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Not \"factitious\". Facetious" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34CF44.50208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:02:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34CC53.8080700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ultimately, much that goes on in a Wolfe novel is unprovable if your\nstandards for proof are at all stringent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's why I think that usefulness is a much better test than provability." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00e301cb1e07$3cd9c460$bad14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:04:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34CFCC.1060803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:04:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34CD67.5070700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was being factitious in order to make a point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not \"factitious\". Facetious" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And here I was thinking it might be a legitimate synonym. Shame on you, \nbefuddling the furriners." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34D096.4060608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:08:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<00e301cb1e07$3cd9c460$bad14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote (07-07-2010 20:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I guess the old man at Casdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood\nfriend of Fechin's, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, isn't he Inire as well? And he's also an old woman, which strenghthens\nthe shapeshifting argument.\n\nI'm all for considering each and every character than we do not grope the\nripe boobs of as being an Inire avatar." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2F8D1277-DC5E-4558-8D64-324F03964FC3@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:09:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<00e301cb1e07$3cd9c460$bad14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So then Inire is a robot.\n\nHell, three of the few male \"friends\" to Severian, Talos, Jonas, and now Inire.\n\nGenius! :)\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nLee Berman quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:10:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<2F8D1277-DC5E-4558-8D64-324F03964FC3@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo then Inire is a robot.\n\nHell, three of the few male \"friends\" to Severian, Talos, Jonas, and now\nInire.\n\nGenius! :)\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was\na\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin,\nthe\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had\nbeen\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4BA66F3C-DE37-4142-95A9-47BB5667EE7A@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've been duped.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:10 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This means Severian is also a robot, of course.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo then Inire is a robot.\n\nHell, three of the few male \"friends\" to Severian, Talos, Jonas, and now Inire.\n\nGenius! :)\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:10 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's time for someone to prove by algebra that Severian is his\nown father." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34D242.6030501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:15:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. \nThis means Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34D306.9030203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:18:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D242.6030501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 20:15):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis means Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The bastard won't die, that much is known." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:19:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D242.6030501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial--I know that\nat one point or another in the narrative his personality is artificially\nresurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nI think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5B55A60E-97C7-4545-9A9B-E209AAE1F68D@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:23:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "his drowning in gyoll? or avern battle? or somewhere else?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nWell, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial--I know that at one point or another in the narrative his personality is artificially resurrected.\n \n \nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nI think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This means Severian is also a robot, of course.\n\nWhat's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<5B55A60E-97C7-4545-9A9B-E209AAE1F68D@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the drowning at the earliest; on the ship at the latest.\n\nNot in the avern battle--he kept his original body that time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nhis drowning in gyoll? or avern battle? or somewhere else?\n\n...ryan\n\n\n On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Well, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial--I know\nthat at one point or another in the narrative his personality is\nartificially resurrected.\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<66a0335fcdff9fb87261d81d62af3b39.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:28:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What slur?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why the slur?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34D5CE.5010202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 2:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nWell, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is that necessary? What if --as seems likely to me-- Severian \ndrowned in the Gyoll at the beginning of SotT? That would mean that for \nalmost every event in which Severian takes part (with the exception of \nearly childhood memories) he was an artificial presence.\n\nActually my original point was to show that debating a theory with snark \nisn't always so easy in a Wolfe novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--I know that at one point or another in the narrative his personality \nis artificially resurrected." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that an important distinction? Wouldn't the extrapolation of this be \nthat Pas and Scylla were not artificial persons?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:31:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What hate?\n\nHow many dicks to I have to suck before it snot hate?\n\nI don't hate fags and I don't hate you.\n\nI actively like fags, and I find you tolerable at times.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:17 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is your opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was also Tolkien's, as expressed through many letters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is without doubt a set of scriptures.\n\nGlad to see you got over pissing your pants.\n\nYou'd've made a realer fag, you know?\n\nIt still throws me when a hetro guy cringes in fear for no apparent\nreason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not cringe in fear. I use the tools society provides.\n\nAnd I'm sorry to see you participating in such blatant homo-hate. Some\nof the bravest men I've known have been queer.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<499f63719e2f24d7fb37c781d1be4b4f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:31:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The book is obviously a set of scriptures.\n\nI use the duck method.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:17 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is your opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was also Tolkien's, as expressed through many letters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is without doubt a set of scriptures.\n\nGlad to see you got over pissing your pants.\n\nYou'd've made a realer fag, you know?\n\nIt still throws me when a hetro guy cringes in fear for no apparent\nreason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not cringe in fear. I use the tools society provides.\n\nAnd I'm sorry to see you participating in such blatant homo-hate. Some\nof the bravest men I've known have been queer.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<590bbb9d218937ac55bde06ae75b695a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:33:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tolkien wrote books.\n\nHe expected to make money selling them.\n\nHe did make money selling them.\n\nHis major income did indeed come from his professorship.\n\nYou speak quite confidently as to Dr Tolkien's motivations.\n\nI wonder how intimately you knew him.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. Ergo, Silmarillion and all of his\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it\ndeeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Again, not a novel. ?The infodumps were as much for the author's\nworking\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. ?Personally, I'm fascinated\nby\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard\nslog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:34:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D5CE.5010202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nIs that an important distinction? Wouldn't the extrapolation of this be\nthat Pas and Scylla were not artificial persons?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if it matters or not. Wolfe certainly seems to be having fun\nwith people of various degrees of artificiality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<152f839bbd02f83fc03a5318462443d7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34C8AF.70507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you assume that the entire life of Superman is chronicled in these\nobviously journalistic - if not actively propagandistic - graphic novels\nand short stories?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I\nmean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Superman were not Clark, where would he have met Lois? Ok, she's a\njournalist and he's a public figure. If Superman were someone else other\nthan Clark, wouldn't he have other singificant people in his alternate\nlife\nwhom we know zilch about? Among whom probably some love interest.\n\nKent being Superman doesn't change the story because in the sorty that's\nprecisely who Kent is. Kent not being Superman would certainly call for a\nquite different story.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:38:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<152f839bbd02f83fc03a5318462443d7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:36 PM, wrote:\nWhy do you assume that the entire life of Superman is chronicled in these\nobviously journalistic - if not actively propagandistic - graphic novels\nand short stories?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:38:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In one of the parallel Worlds there is a human being or some such with\nremarkable powers.\n\nVarious people in this World have received various more or less accurate\naccounts of this person.\n\nThey have written various more or less distorted versions of these\naccounts, which they have used to further their personal agendae.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:30 AM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You know who else is rarely seen with Superman, if ever?\n\nWally West." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, the fact that West mostly hangs out in Central City while\nSuperman hangs out in Metropolis _might_ have something to do with\nthis...\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34D82D.5070500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:40:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<152f839bbd02f83fc03a5318462443d7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Superman is a Dick website:\nhttp://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=28&Itemid=45" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 2:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhy do you assume that the entire life of Superman is chronicled in these\nobviously journalistic - if not actively propagandistic - graphic novels\nand short stories?.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:25):\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I\nmean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Superman were not Clark, where would he have met Lois? Ok, she's a\njournalist and he's a public figure. If Superman were someone else other\nthan Clark, wouldn't he have other singificant people in his alternate\nlife\nwhom we know zilch about? Among whom probably some love interest.\n\nKent being Superman doesn't change the story because in the sorty that's\nprecisely who Kent is. Kent not being Superman would certainly call for a\nquite different story.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52af0686b000d4e2c9b8bfe7d4e0a68e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:44:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34CD67.5070700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why couldn't both be right?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was being factitious in order to make a point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Not \"factitious\". Facetious\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<64dc995700ed47172a97015f79b82ddd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:44:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34CF44.50208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, sir.\n\nWhere were you, again?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ultimately, much that goes on in a Wolfe novel is unprovable if your\nstandards for proof are at all stringent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's why I think that usefulness is a much better test than provability.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:49:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<9125d8c2a0fb1f8b257700b5871c7136.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the archetypes for hierodules would be Barbatus and Famulimus, \n(not sure about Ossipago, I think he is different). They are very tall\nouter space people who are supernaturally beautiful beneath their\nmasks. They dispense technological artifacts to Baldanders to allow\ncertain types of knowledge to disseminate among humanity but they avoid\ndirect interaction and interference.\n \nFather Inire is really different. He is short and ugly. He builds public\nbuildings and private palaces, plants averns to block manatees and has \nbeen directly involved in human politics for hundreds of years, advising\nautarchs, leading enemy armies through jungles and goofing around with\nadolescent young beauties. I think more than an age difference is needed\nto explain why he is so different from B and F.\n \nAs I see it he is best seen as a failed hierodule, one who has violated \nthe Prime Directive as so many misguided villains of Star Trek did. Or,\nin more religious terms, he is a fallen hierodule who has not correctly\nfollowed his divine tasks. As such, like Moses who wasn't evil but who\nalso failed God, he will not be allowed to enter the Promised Land \n(Ushas). (hence the Mt. Nebo reference for Isangoma in the Jungle Hut).\nhttp://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20011015.htm \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34DA51.8040901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:49:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D82D.5070500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any way? I\nmean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Superman were not Clark, where would he have met Lois? Ok, she's a\njournalist and he's a public figure. If Superman were someone else \nother\nthan Clark, wouldn't he have other singificant people in his alternate\nlife whom we know zilch about? Among whom probably some love interest.\nKent being Superman doesn't change the story because in the sorty \nthat's\nprecisely who Kent is. Kent not being Superman would certainly call \nfor a\nquite different story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just sayin'. Imagine if Wolfe had written Superman. There's no way \nwe'd know for certain Kent and Superman were the same guy. If Wolfe had \nwritten Murder On the Orient Express, there would be no Hercule Poirot. \nIt would have consisted of first person stories from 12 seemingly random \npassengers and the conductor who found the body. The reader would have \nbeen expected to play the role of Poirot.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<323b3ef48d4d1ea49de2809d4bc539c7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34CFCC.1060803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a legitimate synonym or near synonym, and not Wynn's coinage.\n\nHe may or may not have used it accideliberately.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 19:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was being factitious in order to make a point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not \"factitious\". Facetious" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And here I was thinking it might be a legitimate synonym. Shame on you,\nbefuddling the furriners.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1e7a6524f6d2e3cce9e30ef600650a29.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:57:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D096.4060608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Inire can travel in time?\n\nJust a guess.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote (07-07-2010 20:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I guess the old man at Casdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood\nfriend of Fechin's, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What, isn't he Inire as well? And he's also an old woman, which\nstrenghthens\nthe shapeshifting argument.\n\nI'm all for considering each and every character than we do not grope the\nripe boobs of as being an Inire avatar.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2bbdfeca2199cc31541890c0c42adea5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:58:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "it is indeed getting short shrift.\n\nI see no reason to imagine or suppose that Inire is other than Severian\nsaid he is, an hierodule who has artificially extended his life.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So then Inire is a robot.\n\nHell, three of the few male \"friends\" to Severian, Talos, Jonas, and now\nInire.\n\nGenius! :)\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having\npainted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted\nby\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he\nwas\na\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was\nFechin,\nthe\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire,\nit\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I\nguess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire\nhad\nbeen\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to\nYmar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Maybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in\nthe\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<597871.38758.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:59:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<00e301cb1e07$3cd9c460$bad14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\nIt had occurred to me that Inire, being long-lived, may have had a long childhood. But that would assume his lifespan was normal, which we are told it is not. So, no.\nWhat to do with Fechin? He can't be the Russian namesake, because he lived only decades ago. Yes, he could have painted himself as a boy, so he could be Rudesind. But he can't be Inire, who is much older.\nIf Rudesind is hiding an identity it is that of Fechin, who could be a mere 20 years older. Not that of Inire.\nThat would explain Rudesind's comments about paintings of himself and Inire. But it doesn't explain why he made those remarks.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:04 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4017eae70dbf52d73f615f0b0e32ca4f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T19:59:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That he is his own grandfather is likely.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:10 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's time for someone to prove by algebra that Severian is his\nown father.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:00:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4017eae70dbf52d73f615f0b0e32ca4f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if he is his own father, then he is his own father's father, QED.\n\n\"Oh, I'm my own grampaaaaaaw...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:59 PM, wrote:\n\nThat he is his own grandfather is likely.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:10 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's time for someone to prove by algebra that Severian is his\nown father.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8fa89ce0aee0105f206b3cc1aa38a591.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D242.6030501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Made by art, sure.\n\nMade by art by God or made by art by God with help or made by some godless\natheistic communist and possibly demonic character seems to be the matter\nunder discussion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis means Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<584667.46073.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:02:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought we \"knew\" that already. ;)\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:13 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:10 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here. This\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's time for someone to prove by algebra that Severian is his\nown father." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45ac316fbd2c2e5ebd719a574ed009a5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:02:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D306.9030203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is another instance where the half dozen or so near death experiences\nI have been through give me a peculiar insight that one or two of you\nperhaps do not share.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 20:15):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis means Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The bastard won't die, that much is known.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7420560c57d8080a03575f78803a7b3a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:04:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you assume that his personality is artificially resurrected?\n\nMy take on this is he is dead in one parallel World, and resurrected in\nanother which includes a dead body that is identical with his old one.\n\nIs a line parallel to itself?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial--I know\nthat\nat one point or another in the narrative his personality is artificially\nresurrected.\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1b3060c3248069f1e07c51e650dfdc86.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:05:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34D5CE.5010202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was resurrected.\n\nThe book was written by this guy who is well know to believe in God.\n\nDoctor Ockham to the Library.\n\nDoctor Ockham to the Library, stat.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 2:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why is that necessary? What if --as seems likely to me-- Severian\ndrowned in the Gyoll at the beginning of SotT? That would mean that for\nalmost every event in which Severian takes part (with the exception of\nearly childhood memories) he was an artificial presence.\n\nActually my original point was to show that debating a theory with snark\nisn't always so easy in a Wolfe novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--I know that at one point or another in the narrative his personality\nis artificially resurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that an important distinction? Wouldn't the extrapolation of this be\nthat Pas and Scylla were not artificial persons?\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<162401.37110.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:05:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like it.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Inire as a hierodule\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:49 PM\n\n\n\nWell, the archetypes for hierodules would be Barbatus and Famulimus, \n(not sure about Ossipago, I think he is different). They are very tall\nouter space people who are supernaturally beautiful beneath their\nmasks. They dispense technological artifacts to Baldanders to allow\ncertain types of knowledge to disseminate among humanity but they avoid\ndirect interaction and interference.\n \nFather Inire is really different. He is short and ugly. He builds public\nbuildings and private palaces, plants averns to block manatees and has \nbeen directly involved in human politics for hundreds of? years, advising\nautarchs, leading enemy armies through jungles and goofing around with\nadolescent young beauties. I think more than an age difference is needed\nto explain why he is so different from B and F.\n \nAs I see it he is best seen as a failed hierodule, one who has violated \nthe Prime Directive as so many misguided villains of Star Trek did. Or,\nin more religious terms, he is a fallen hierodule who has not correctly\nfollowed his divine tasks. As such, like Moses who wasn't evil but who\nalso failed God, he will not be allowed to enter the Promised Land \n(Ushas). (hence the Mt. Nebo reference for Isangoma in the Jungle Hut).\nhttp://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20011015.htm ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9634a548ee83cdbf601b55347631be1b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:06:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<5B55A60E-97C7-4545-9A9B-E209AAE1F68D@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian has even more near death experiences than me.\n\nThis is impressive.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his drowning in gyoll? or avern battle? or somewhere else?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial--I know\nthat at one point or another in the narrative his personality is\nartificially resurrected.\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nI think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis means Severian is also a robot, of course.\n\nWhat's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2ba88182f1cee1d001f0e1988d16776e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:06:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has a point.\n\nIt's the same as one of mine.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is that an important distinction? Wouldn't the extrapolation of this be\nthat Pas and Scylla were not artificial persons?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if it matters or not. Wolfe certainly seems to be having fun\nwith people of various degrees of artificiality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "u+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34DE9F.4080505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:07:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<597871.38758.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It had occurred to me that Inire, being long-lived, may have had a long\nchildhood. But that would assume his lifespan was normal, which we are\ntold it is not. So, no.What to do with Fechin? He can't be the Russian\nnamesake, because he lived only decades ago. Yes, he could have painted\nhimself as a boy, so he could be Rudesind. But he can't be Inire, who\nis much older.If Rudesind is hiding an identity it is that of Fechin,\nwho could be a mere 20 years older. Not that of Inire.That would\nexplain Rudesind's comments about paintings of himself and Inire. But\nit doesn't explain why he made those remarks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child? \nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that \nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that \nRudesind is from the 20th century?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522d8dff7522be9af2bf9b775a3c61f2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's way more effective when someone else does it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:36 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you assume that the entire life of Superman is chronicled in\nthese obviously journalistic - if not actively propagandistic - graphic\nnovels and short stories?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0dfd5e957e85b9a7589dd9f9f8c6df3e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:08:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you assume they are archetypes?\n\nWhat is an archetype?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the archetypes for hierodules would be Barbatus and Famulimus,\n(not sure about Ossipago, I think he is different). They are very tall\nouter space people who are supernaturally beautiful beneath their\nmasks. They dispense technological artifacts to Baldanders to allow\ncertain types of knowledge to disseminate among humanity but they avoid\ndirect interaction and interference.\n\nFather Inire is really different. He is short and ugly. He builds public\nbuildings and private palaces, plants averns to block manatees and has\nbeen directly involved in human politics for hundreds of years, advising\nautarchs, leading enemy armies through jungles and goofing around with\nadolescent young beauties. I think more than an age difference is needed\nto explain why he is so different from B and F.\n\nAs I see it he is best seen as a failed hierodule, one who has violated\nthe Prime Directive as so many misguided villains of Star Trek did. Or,\nin more religious terms, he is a fallen hierodule who has not correctly\nfollowed his divine tasks. As such, like Moses who wasn't evil but who\nalso failed God, he will not be allowed to enter the Promised Land\n(Ushas). (hence the Mt. Nebo reference for Isangoma in the Jungle Hut).\nhttp://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20011015.htm\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<215520.53785.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34DE9F.4080505@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:07 PM\nIt had occurred to me that Inire, being long-lived, may have had a long\nchildhood. But that would assume his lifespan was normal, which we are\ntold it is not. So, no.What to do with Fechin? He can't be the Russian\nnamesake, because he lived only decades ago. Yes, he could have painted\nhimself as a boy, so he could be Rudesind. But he can't be Inire, who\nis much older.If Rudesind is hiding an identity it is that of Fechin,\nwho could be a mere 20 years older. Not that of Inire.That would\nexplain Rudesind's comments about paintings of himself and Inire. But\nit doesn't explain why he made those remarks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child? We're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that Rudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that Rudesind is from the 20th century?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why could he not have several deaths?\n\nI assume that at each of my near death experiences, I was dead in other\nWorlds, crippled in others, etc.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the drowning at the earliest; on the ship at the latest.\n\nNot in the avern battle--he kept his original body that time.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "his drowning in gyoll? or avern battle? or somewhere else?\n\n...ryan\n\n\n On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Well, I don't know that Severian was always already artificial--I know\nthat at one point or another in the narrative his personality is\nartificially resurrected.\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's your definition of \"robot\"? We do know he's artificial, right?\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34DFBC.2080507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:12:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<215520.53785.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old \nis he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nIf so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n\n I'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a\n child? We're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is\n problematic that Rudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that\n Inire is Fetchin? And that Rudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:13:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian begets Ouen\n\nOuen begets Severian after Inire moves him and Dorcas back in time.\n\nThis would make Ouen the fisherman.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if he is his own father, then he is his own father's father, QED.\n\n\"Oh, I'm my own grampaaaaaaw...\"\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:59 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That he is his own grandfather is likely.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:10 PM, John Watkins\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think my \"Severian-is-Inire\" theory is getting short shrift here.\nThis\nmeans Severian is also a robot, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it's time for someone to prove by algebra that Severian is his\nown father.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<921DCA9E-1E0D-4A03-89F8-B38A6569E9DA@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:14:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<597871.38758.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not letting go of that monkey description, sorry. It is a clue to something.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 3:59 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nExactly. \n\nIt had occurred to me that Inire, being long-lived, may have had a long childhood. But that would assume his lifespan was normal, which we are told it is not. So, no.\n\nWhat to do with Fechin? He can't be the Russian namesake, because he lived only decades ago. Yes, he could have painted himself as a boy, so he could be Rudesind. But he can't be Inire, who is much older. \n\nIf Rudesind is hiding an identity it is that of Fechin, who could be a mere 20 years older. Not that of Inire.\n\nThat would explain Rudesind's comments about paintings of himself and Inire. But it doesn't explain why he made those remarks. \n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:04 PM\n\nLee Berman quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:14:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:13 PM, wrote:\nSeverian begets Ouen" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Textual evidence?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7e83ee8d610490b383fef8f189137b38.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:15:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<215520.53785.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless they traveled in time.\n\nOr something.\n\n.\n\n\nIf so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:07 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It had occurred to me that Inire, being long-lived, may have had a long\nchildhood. But that would assume his lifespan was normal, which we are\ntold it is not. So, no.What to do with Fechin? He can't be the Russian\nnamesake, because he lived only decades ago. Yes, he could have painted\nhimself as a boy, so he could be Rudesind. But he can't be Inire, who\nis much older.If Rudesind is hiding an identity it is that of Fechin,\nwho could be a mere 20 years older. Not that of Inire.That would\nexplain Rudesind's comments about paintings of himself and Inire. But\nit doesn't explain why he made those remarks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<04f71e72b5d0477be8334bc0f561c803.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:17:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:13 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian begets Ouen" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Textual evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the difference between a pedant and someone who thinks properly.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1449.21563.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:17:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34DFBC.2080507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would make them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series entirely.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:12 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n \nSeverian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old\nis he?\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n \n \n \n If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000\nyears old.\n\n \n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn \nwrote:\n\n \n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\n \n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n \n\n \n\n\nUrth Mailing List\n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n\n\n \n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:18:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<590bbb9d218937ac55bde06ae75b695a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I was but a young lad in college, I took a course with Prof. Hoyt\non the linguistics of Middle Earth, including an extensive survey of\nProf. Tolkien's own writings on the subject, his speeches, and his\nviews on language. The scholarly consensus among such people as H.\nFauskanger (who runs the Ardalambion website) is that Tolkien's\nliterary works served as a backdrop for him to experiment with the\nchanging field of philology and its metamorphosis into modern\nlinguistics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, wrote:\nTolkien wrote books.\n\nHe expected to make money selling them.\n\nHe did make money selling them.\n\nHis major income did indeed come from his professorship.\n\nYou speak quite confidently as to Dr Tolkien's motivations.\n\nI wonder how intimately you knew him.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. ?The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. ?Ergo, Silmarillion and all of his\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it\ndeeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people skip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's infodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Again, not a novel. ?The infodumps were as much for the author's\nworking\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. ?Personally, I'm fascinated\nby\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard\nslog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<920889.47453.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:18:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<921DCA9E-1E0D-4A03-89F8-B38A6569E9DA@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you should.\nLoki had red hair, did he not?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:14 PM\n\nI'm not letting go of that monkey description, sorry. It is a clue to something.\n...ryan\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 3:59 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\nExactly.\nIt had occurred to me that Inire, being long-lived, may have had a long childhood. But that would assume his lifespan was normal, which we are told it is not. So, no.\nWhat to do with Fechin? He can't be the Russian namesake, because he lived only decades ago. Yes, he could have painted himself as a boy, so he could be Rudesind. But he can't be Inire, who is much older.\nIf Rudesind is hiding an identity it is that of Fechin, who could be a mere 20 years older. Not that of Inire.\nThat would explain Rudesind's comments about paintings of himself and Inire. But it doesn't explain why he made those remarks.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:04 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman quoted and wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- Any thoughts on the question of Fechin having painted\nInire\nas a little boy, thus proving that he is Rudesind, who was painted by\nFechin\nas a little boy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think I'd ever hope to prove something but rather find\nsuggestions. And\nin that scenario, Rudesind says a great artist visited him, when he was a\nboy\nartist, to see his work. \"It was Fechin, Fechin himself!\". Was Fechin, the\ngreat artist or the boy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does\n it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:19:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<215520.53785.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By birth perhaps, but not by internal time. Inire made the time-bending\nand space-bending Botanical Gardens, and had some of Gyoll diverted to\nwater the ancient purple creepers and otherworldly averns under the\nconsrvation of the curators. It make sense that he also collects artwork\nfrom other times and places, and may have diverted a curator to keep it\nwashed as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:19:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<1449.21563.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Challenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The Book of the\nNew Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a member of one of\ntheir families." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would\nmake them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series entirely.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:12 PM\n\nSeverian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old is\nhe?\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn \n* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:23:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Challenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The Book of the\nNew Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a member of one\nof\ntheir families." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Piaton!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:25:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nChallenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The Book of the\nNew Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a member of one\nof\ntheir families." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Piaton!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...fair enough. Assuming Piaton is not one of Typhon's bastards, that is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34E2E6.2070002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<1449.21563.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if they made the Time Machine themselves. But, look. If Rudesind \nand Inire were actually boys together, that means Rudesind is ALSO old \nenough to have been a councilor to all the other Autarchs. And, yet, all \nhe likes doing is restoring art." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 3:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would \nmake them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series entirely.\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n\n Severian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple.\n How old is he?\n\n\n On 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n\n I'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind\n was a child? We're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think\n it is problematic that Rudesind is Inire. But is it\n impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that Rudesind is from\n the 20th century?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:27:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<0dfd5e957e85b9a7589dd9f9f8c6df3e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy Lackey- Since you have claimed that both Rudesind and Fechin are really Inire, it\ndoesn't really matter, does it? They are all the same person, and I guess\nthe part about being a boy is just a lie. And I guess the old man at\nCasdoe's cabin lied about being a boyhood friend of Fechin's, too. Because,\nin the interest of pedantry, I feel obliged to point out that Inire had been\nvizier to all the autarchs, going back at least a thousand years to Ymar.\nMaybe Inire had a protracted boyhood and only grew up and got old in the\nlast seventy years or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"claimed\" is such a harsh word, Roy. So final and legalistic. I prefer \"suggested\"\nor \"offered possibility\".\n \nAnyway I don't think you have the right mind set for how such a thing could\nwork. Ryan Dunn is more along my way of thinking- using Tzadkiel as a model for\nshapeshifting. A giant shapeshifting being who can squeeze off smaller parts which\nthemselves can shapeshift. I wonder if the giant Tzadkiel that Severian sees on her\nthrone is even the biggest version of him/her.\n \nAnyway, so, like Tzadkiel, these squeezed off pieces could act as various agents at\nvarious times. One could look like a proboscis monkey with a long nose, one like a\nuakari with almost no nose, one like a cynocephallic baboon, one like a long-armed,\nred-haired artist etc. I would expect each one to have an identifying mark to tie\nthem back to the original being though, like the Armiger's Daughter. Part of good\nstory telling.\n \nWhere might a gigantic original being which could spawn Father Inire copies actually\nreside while on Urth? Where indeed. I could also wonder from whence did Juturna and\nher \"sisters\" originate? Does a squeezed off piece of Abaia have to be male? I think\nSeawrack and The Mother in Blue's ocean might be another example of a similar \nrelationship. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<76674723-85A2-46AA-B511-44017787E2BD@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:27:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Timon?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 4:19 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nChallenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The Book of the New Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a member of one of their families.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would make them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series entirely.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:12 PM\n\nSeverian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old is he?\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child? We're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that Rudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that Rudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<792194.57924.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:29:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:19 PM\nIf so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By birth perhaps, but not by internal time. Inire made the time-bending\nand space-bending Botanical Gardens, and had some of Gyoll diverted to\nwater the ancient purple creepers and otherworldly averns under the\nconsrvation of the curators. It make sense that he also collects artwork\nfrom other times and places, and may have diverted a curator to keep it\nwashed as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:31:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWhere might a gigantic original being which could spawn Father Inire copies actually\nreside while on Urth? Where indeed. I could also wonder from whence did Juturna and\nher \"sisters\" originate? Does a squeezed off piece of Abaia have to be male? I think\nSeawrack and The Mother in Blue's ocean might be another example of a similar\nrelationship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm pretty sure that one of the undines tells Sev that they are\nthe \"brides\" of Abaia. This may not mean much in the framework that\nsome people seem determined to build up, but to me it suggests that\nthey are different people (pace Heinlein and \"All You Zombies\")." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<323235.95088.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:32:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34E2E6.2070002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it would mean that. So he doesn't want to be Head Curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:26 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\n \nOnly if they made the Time Machine themselves. But, look. If Rudesind\nand Inire were actually boys together, that means Rudesind is ALSO old\nenough to have been a councilor to all the other Autarchs. And, yet,\nall he likes doing is restoring art.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n \n \n \n I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made.\nBut that would make them boy time travelers. Which is another comic\nbook series entirely.\n\n \n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\n \n\n Severian was there at the\nconstruction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old\nis he?\n\n \n\n \n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n \n \n \n \n If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000\nyears old.\n\n \n\n \n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\n \n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n \n\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n\n\n \n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<58ABBAAF-A71C-4958-B195-0F89124BD24B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:32:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could one also have the head of a dog and the body of an ape like the creature watching Severian when he wakes in the Lazaret in SotT?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 4:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, so, like Tzadkiel, these squeezed off pieces could act as various agents at\nvarious times. One could look like a proboscis monkey with a long nose, one like a\nuakari with almost no nose, one like a cynocephallic baboon, one like a long-armed,\nred-haired artist etc. I would expect each one to have an identifying mark to tie\nthem back to the original being though, like the Armiger's Daughter. Part of good\nstory telling." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34E4BF.7090506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:34:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n > Challenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The\n Book of the\n > New Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a\n member of one\n > of\n > their families.\n\n Piaton!\n\n ...fair enough. Assuming Piaton is not one of Typhon's \nbastards, that is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon:\n\"Piaton was one of my slaves....\"\n\"Sword of the Lictor\" chap 25\n\nTyphon's daughter:\n\"We slaves. Pas own.\"\n\"Return to the Whorl\"\n\nI'm just sayin'. It could happen.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<43f4aecb27c4f6d36a65188d35d861df.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:36:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was based upon his ideas regarding deep history.\n\nIn other words.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I was but a young lad in college, I took a course with Prof. Hoyt\non the linguistics of Middle Earth, including an extensive survey of\nProf. Tolkien's own writings on the subject, his speeches, and his\nviews on language. The scholarly consensus among such people as H.\nFauskanger (who runs the Ardalambion website) is that Tolkien's\nliterary works served as a backdrop for him to experiment with the\nchanging field of philology and its metamorphosis into modern\nlinguistics.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tolkien wrote books.\n\nHe expected to make money selling them.\n\nHe did make money selling them.\n\nHis major income did indeed come from his professorship.\n\nYou speak quite confidently as to Dr Tolkien's motivations.\n\nI wonder how intimately you knew him.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. ?The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. ?Ergo, Silmarillion and all of his\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it\ndeeply\nflawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people\nskip'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's\ninfodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Again, not a novel. ?The infodumps were as much for the author's\nworking\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. ?Personally, I'm fascinated\nby\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard\nslog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:37:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34E4BF.7090506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:34 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nPiaton!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?...fair enough. Assuming Piaton is not one of Typhon's bastards, that is.\n\n\nTyphon:\n\"Piaton was one of my slaves....\"\n\"Sword of the Lictor\" chap 25\n\nTyphon's daughter:\n\"We slaves. Pas own.\"\n\"Return to the Whorl\"\n\nI'm just sayin'. It could happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, given the degree of tissue matching that would be required for\nthe operation in question to succeed, it would be surprising if Typhon\nand Piaton were _not_ close relatives." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:37:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reader.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Challenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The Book of the\nNew Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a member of one\nof\ntheir families.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would\nmake them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series\nentirely.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:12 PM\n\nSeverian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old\nis\nhe?\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn\n\n* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn\n\n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:37:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose there might be a raven or two reading.\n\nI wouldn't put it past them and they have the hands.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Challenge: name a (humanoid and non-undine) character in The Book of the\nNew Sun who is definitely not Inire, Severian, Typhon or a member of one\nof\ntheir families.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would\nmake them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series\nentirely.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:12 PM\n\nSeverian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old\nis\nhe?\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn\n\n* wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn\n\n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2bc7c5b4ba6ff97e75f7c8280c7bfa68.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:40:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34E2E6.2070002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone's got to have a hobby.\n\nLook at me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only if they made the Time Machine themselves. But, look. If Rudesind\nand Inire were actually boys together, that means Rudesind is ALSO old\nenough to have been a councilor to all the other Autarchs. And, yet, all\nhe likes doing is restoring art.\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made. But that would\nmake them boy time travelers. Which is another comic book series\nentirely.\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n\n Severian was there at the construction of Apu Punchau's temple.\n How old is he?\n\n\n On 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old.\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n\n I'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind\n was a child? We're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think\n it is problematic that Rudesind is Inire. But is it\n impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that Rudesind is from\n the 20th century?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34E677.5070501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<43f4aecb27c4f6d36a65188d35d861df.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll put it this way. Tolkien was interested in languages. He invented \nhis own language in his 20s which he called a \"Fairy language\". But a \ntrue language must occur over time. It has to change according to \ncertain rules. So Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion as a world for his \nlanguage to develop within.\n\nIn \"Leaf by Niggle\", Tolkien wrote a story about a guy who enjoyed \ndrawing leaves and was very good at that. So he began drawing landscapes \nwith distant mountains as a backdrop for his leaves. Eventually, \neveryone liked his his landscapes and were crazy about what was going on \nin those distant mountains. That's the story of the Silmarillion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 3:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt was based upon his ideas regarding deep history.\n\nIn other words.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I was but a young lad in college, I took a course with Prof. Hoyt\non the linguistics of Middle Earth, including an extensive survey of\nProf. Tolkien's own writings on the subject, his speeches, and his\nviews on language. The scholarly consensus among such people as H.\nFauskanger (who runs the Ardalambion website) is that Tolkien's\nliterary works served as a backdrop for him to experiment with the\nchanging field of philology and its metamorphosis into modern\nlinguistics.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Tolkien wrote books.\n\nHe expected to make money selling them.\n\nHe did make money selling them.\n\nHis major income did indeed come from his professorship.\n\nYou speak quite confidently as to Dr Tolkien's motivations.\n\nI wonder how intimately you knew him.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. Ergo, Silmarillion and all of his\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nwrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "deeply\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "flawed?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling asleep.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "skip'?\n\nIt's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's\ninfodumps.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Again, not a novel. The infodumps were as much for the author's\nworking\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. Personally, I'm fascinated\nby\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a hard\nslog,\nI'm glad to have it.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1638a0538b5b7d0ac6ca5fbd96883349.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:41:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<792194.57924.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean, a new one?\n\nWhy would that be a useful thing?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:19 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By birth perhaps, but not by internal time. Inire made the time-bending\nand space-bending Botanical Gardens, and had some of Gyoll diverted to\nwater the ancient purple creepers and otherworldly averns under the\nconsrvation of the curators. It make sense that he also collects artwork\nfrom other times and places, and may have diverted a curator to keep it\nwashed as well.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<88e5b40ebee3b396a5cef12c1081f2b3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<792194.57924.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4967bf8eb196a87217edf3e3825c4895.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<323235.95088.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What possible motivation might he have to be the head curator?\n\nHe apparently really enjoys restoring paintings.\n\nI can't imagine the Head does much of that.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, it would mean that. So he doesn't want to be Head Curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:26 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOnly if they made the Time Machine themselves. But, look. If Rudesind\nand Inire were actually boys together, that means Rudesind is ALSO old\nenough to have been a councilor to all the other Autarchs. And, yet,\nall he likes doing is restoring art.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:17 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\n\n\n I see your point, which in fact is a suggestion I made.\nBut that would make them boy time travelers. Which is another comic\nbook series entirely.\n\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\n\n\n Severian was there at the\nconstruction of Apu Punchau's temple. How old\nis he?\n\n\n\n\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:09 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\n\n\n If so, then Rudesind and Inire are both about 20,000\nyears old.\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\n\n\nI'm a bit lost. Have we actually established WHEN Rudesind was a child?\nWe're dealing with Time Travelers here. I think it is problematic that\nRudesind is Inire. But is it impossible that Inire is Fetchin? And that\nRudesind is from the 20th century?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f8377d2c2df5d3cf706fa0726a4ec1d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:48:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<58ABBAAF-A71C-4958-B195-0F89124BD24B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not?\n\nThat's how God works in this World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could one also have the head of a dog and the body of an ape like the\ncreature watching Severian when he wakes in the Lazaret in SotT?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 4:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, so, like Tzadkiel, these squeezed off pieces could act as\nvarious agents at\nvarious times. One could look like a proboscis monkey with a long nose,\none like a\nuakari with almost no nose, one like a cynocephallic baboon, one like a\nlong-armed,\nred-haired artist etc. I would expect each one to have an identifying\nmark to tie\nthem back to the original being though, like the Armiger's Daughter.\nPart of good\nstory telling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:49:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34E677.5070501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is only one reading.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll put it this way. Tolkien was interested in languages. He invented\nhis own language in his 20s which he called a \"Fairy language\". But a\ntrue language must occur over time. It has to change according to\ncertain rules. So Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion as a world for his\nlanguage to develop within.\n\nIn \"Leaf by Niggle\", Tolkien wrote a story about a guy who enjoyed\ndrawing leaves and was very good at that. So he began drawing landscapes\nwith distant mountains as a backdrop for his leaves. Eventually,\neveryone liked his his landscapes and were crazy about what was going on\nin those distant mountains. That's the story of the Silmarillion.\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was based upon his ideas regarding deep history.\n\nIn other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When I was but a young lad in college, I took a course with Prof. Hoyt\non the linguistics of Middle Earth, including an extensive survey of\nProf. Tolkien's own writings on the subject, his speeches, and his\nviews on language. The scholarly consensus among such people as H.\nFauskanger (who runs the Ardalambion website) is that Tolkien's\nliterary works served as a backdrop for him to experiment with the\nchanging field of philology and its metamorphosis into modern\nlinguistics.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Tolkien wrote books.\n\nHe expected to make money selling them.\n\nHe did make money selling them.\n\nHis major income did indeed come from his professorship.\n\nYou speak quite confidently as to Dr Tolkien's motivations.\n\nI wonder how intimately you knew him.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. Ergo, Silmarillion and all of\nhis\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l\nDanehy-Oakes\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "deeply" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "flawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling\nasleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "skip'?\n\nIt's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's\ninfodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Again, not a novel. The infodumps were as much for the author's\nworking\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. Personally, I'm\nfascinated\nby\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a\nhard\nslog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:50:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34E677.5070501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what way does what you say contradict what I say?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll put it this way. Tolkien was interested in languages. He invented\nhis own language in his 20s which he called a \"Fairy language\". But a\ntrue language must occur over time. It has to change according to\ncertain rules. So Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion as a world for his\nlanguage to develop within.\n\nIn \"Leaf by Niggle\", Tolkien wrote a story about a guy who enjoyed\ndrawing leaves and was very good at that. So he began drawing landscapes\nwith distant mountains as a backdrop for his leaves. Eventually,\neveryone liked his his landscapes and were crazy about what was going on\nin those distant mountains. That's the story of the Silmarillion.\n\nOn 7/7/2010 3:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was based upon his ideas regarding deep history.\n\nIn other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When I was but a young lad in college, I took a course with Prof. Hoyt\non the linguistics of Middle Earth, including an extensive survey of\nProf. Tolkien's own writings on the subject, his speeches, and his\nviews on language. The scholarly consensus among such people as H.\nFauskanger (who runs the Ardalambion website) is that Tolkien's\nliterary works served as a backdrop for him to experiment with the\nchanging field of philology and its metamorphosis into modern\nlinguistics.\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Tolkien wrote books.\n\nHe expected to make money selling them.\n\nHe did make money selling them.\n\nHis major income did indeed come from his professorship.\n\nYou speak quite confidently as to Dr Tolkien's motivations.\n\nI wonder how intimately you knew him.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Tolkien made his living as a professor. The \"background\" of the\nSilmarillion was to give his world an impetus for his languages to\nchange, much as our own did, coupled with his desire to formulate a\nmodern mythology for Great Britain. Ergo, Silmarillion and all of\nhis\n\"notes\" that have been posthumously edited and published by his son.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The man wanted to get paid.\n\nThis is not an hypothesis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan'l\nDanehy-Oakes\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "The Quenta Silmarillion is an unfinished book, but why is it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "deeply" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "flawed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Try reading \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" without falling\nasleep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Is that a matter of not 'leav[ing] out the parts that people" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "skip'?\n\nIt's a matter of not doing a good job of integrating one's\ninfodumps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Again, not a novel. The infodumps were as much for the author's\nworking\nout\nof his creative impulse as anything else. Personally, I'm\nfascinated\nby\nTolkien's process, and while \"Of Beleriand and its Realms\" is a\nhard\nslog,\nI'm glad to have it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0e0642f8f9082686893326c1f1f2504a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where might a gigantic original being which could spawn Father Inire\ncopies actually\nreside while on Urth? Where indeed. I could also wonder from whence did\nJuturna and\nher \"sisters\" originate? Does a squeezed off piece of Abaia have to be\nmale?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna and the lot could be humans adapted to live underwater, like\nBaldanders, or their descendants." } ] }, { "message_id": "<21d7a42ff14f53feeb8d7404d3288c48.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, given the degree of tissue matching that would be required for\nthe operation in question to succeed, it would be surprising if Typhon\nand Piaton were _not_ close relatives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I considered that, but if tissue matching were necessary, he'd use a clone." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T20:57:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<21d7a42ff14f53feeb8d7404d3288c48.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, given the degree of tissue matching that would be required for\nthe operation in question to succeed, it would be surprising if Typhon\nand Piaton were _not_ close relatives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I considered that, but if tissue matching were necessary, he'd use a clone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless what was killing him was inherent to his genome. Then he'd need\na close relative that didn't have that disease, whatever it was." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34EB3D.9030906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<88e5b40ebee3b396a5cef12c1081f2b3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (07-07-2010 21:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That era? By his name I'd guess he was born some centuries before the 20th." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34EB9C.8070803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:03:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is only one reading.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the way Tolkien described it. See \"The Letters of JRR Tolkien\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In what way does what you say contradict what I say?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, to the extent that 1) what I say is the way Tolkien described the \ncreation of his world in very straightforward and engaging terms, and 2) \nthat he never offered \"deep history\" as an explanation...well it doesn't \n*contradict* what your saying. Saying \"Oranges grow from trees in \nFlorida\" does not contradict \"Oranges can be thought of as a symbol of \nfertility.\" But only one statement tells me where to buy oranges wholesale." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34ED71.2020108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:11:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34DA51.8040901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 20:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Does it deciding that Kent is Superman change the story in any\nway? I mean, Superman still has to rescue Lois, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If Superman were not Clark, where would he have met Lois? Ok, she's\na journalist and he's a public figure. If Superman were someone\nelse other than Clark, wouldn't he have other singificant people in\nhis alternate life whom we know zilch about? Among whom probably\nsome love interest. Kent being Superman doesn't change the story\nbecause in the sorty that's precisely who Kent is. Kent not being\nSuperman would certainly call for a quite different story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just sayin'. Imagine if Wolfe had written Superman. There's no way\nwe'd know for certain Kent and Superman were the same guy. If Wolfe had\nwritten Murder On the Orient Express, there would be no Hercule Poirot.\nIt would have consisted of first person stories from 12 seemingly random\n passengers and the conductor who found the body. The reader would have\nbeen expected to play the role of Poirot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dunno. Wolfe wrote the March B Street stories. And Cherry Jubilee.\n\nBut *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show Superman and\nClark were the same guy, our speculation that they might be *would* lead to\na richer reading. We would postulate they were the same guy because that\nwould take the story to a whole new level, not because of some esoteric\nmotivation for weaving the alter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the table.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I find\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<548969.21604.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:11:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<88e5b40ebee3b396a5cef12c1081f2b3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM\ntrue...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34EDED.3070502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34ED71.2020108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show Superman and\nClark were the same guy, our speculation that they might be *would* \nlead to\na richer reading. We would postulate they were the same guy because that\nwould take the story to a whole new level, not because of some esoteric\nmotivation for weaving the alter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the \ntable.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I find\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:18:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EDED.3070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly, or Ouen being her son, or a boatman looking for 'Cas. Or FBO going backwards in time only to keep meeting Severian as if by chance?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 5:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the \nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the table. \nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I find \nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34EF25.7030109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:18:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EDED.3070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 22:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show Superman and\nClark were the same guy, our speculation that they might be *would*\nlead to\na richer reading. We would postulate they were the same guy because that\nwould take the story to a whole new level, not because of some esoteric\nmotivation for weaving the alter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the\ntable.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I find\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not talking about narrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative \nadvantage.\n\nAnd as a side note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see \nthat real life employs it, why should fiction?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34F29D.3080805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:33:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I should point out in more detail how the two things you are confusing \nare quite distinct.\n\n- One is the author having a purpose for including something in the story. \nThe thing is there because it serves some end. That is its narrative advantage.\n\n- The other is the reader having a purpose for making assumptions about what \nhappens in the story, i.e., speculation. Speculation is justified because it \nenables a novel or in some way extended reading.\n\nIn fact, the reason you've provided yourself for justifying speculation is \nthat it serves to find a narrative advantage to things which otherwise you \nthink don't have any.\n\nNow, I'm not a fan of the idea that everything must provide narrative \nadvantage. In fact I think a decent lengthy book should have detail in it \nthat is there only for its own sake. Maybe it could provide narrative \nadvantage in a parallel story. Maybe the fact that the character forded 3 \ninstead of 2 brooks could be significant in some untold story about that \nplace. Maybe the story can even be written one of these days.\n\nIn short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some purpose \nwithin that book. But reader speculation must, because with all the stuff \nthat Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't set some standard, \nthen you can go on indefinitely at random.\n\nWhereas you've done the reverse: you think everything in the stpry must \nserve some purpose, yet speculation is free to roam.\n\n\nRyan Dunn wrote (07-07-2010 22:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly, or Ouen being her son, or a boatman looking for 'Cas. Or FBO going backwards in time only to keep meeting Severian as if by chance?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 5:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the table.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I find\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34F4E3.9020109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:42:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EF25.7030109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show \nSuperman and\nClark were the same guy, our speculation that they might be *would*\nlead to\na richer reading. We would postulate they were the same guy because \nthat\nwould take the story to a whole new level, not because of some esoteric\nmotivation for weaving the alter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the\ntable.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I \nfind\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not talking about narrative advantage. I'm talking about \nspeculative advantage.\n\nAnd as a side note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I \ndon't see that real life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. What's the speculative advantage to Dorcas being Severian's \ngrandmother?\n\nI remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more \ntextual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason \nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe \nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner.\n\nI think the real test is: \"Do the accumulated facts form a real pattern \nor only a perceived pattern?\" Almost anything you say about Wolfe's \nfiction *could* be shunted with \"who cares? This won't change my opinion \non the story.\" If you feel that way, fine. Go on to the next post. You \nhave nothing to add. People post these theories because they see what \nlooks like a deliberate pattern. They want someone to say \"It couldn't \nwork because...\" or \"Here's something else that fits that pattern....\"\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:53:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F4E3.9020109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 5:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more textual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason it's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe uncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Half baked? And it required a Wolfe confirmation to accept Grandma Dorcas? Man, that one seemed pretty obvious from my first reading. And the confirmation actually instills hope that digging like that for answers is in fact what Wolfe intended with the text.\n\nWhenever he goes to the trouble of describing something mundane, take close note of it, because it means something. Whenever Severian is confused by something, study it carefully, because Wolfe is saying \"LOOK AT ME!\" He's saying... remember, this is an untrustworthy narrator, so don't take him at his word. Look beyond what he sees, reinterpret it using your own archetypes, use logic where Severian fails. And so forth.\n\nHethor's rant needs to be studied carefully, otherwise Wolfe (Severian) would not have bothered to share it with us. And when you study it, what do you find? I tried to start that discourse a month ago, and it was quite fruitful. But then there were the preconceived notions that it was trivial to study it.\n\nSame with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his omnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in keeping with the literary style of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is asking of us.\n\nWhether that rabbit hole leads you to Albuquerque or Anchorage is secondary to the idea of looking for the signs, puzzling it together. Gene wanted to layer a series of books that could be studied for generations. That means there are puzzles, clues, and interwoven symbolism abound.\n\nInire is probably, along with Tzdakiel and Typhon, one of the main characters we should be looking into. Don't you think?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34F794.8040104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F29D.3080805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWhereas you've done the reverse: you think everything in the stpry \nmust serve some purpose, yet speculation is free to roam. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think his point was \"Inire is repeatedly compared to a monkey. This \ncomes up several times with other characters. Are these flags that Inire \nis or has been in other guises. If not, what does Wolfe's repeated use \nof these simian signifiers mean? Why do they occur repeatedly?\"\n\nI don't know if he's on to something or not. But saying \"I don't see how \nthis changes anything\" is just not an answer. A lot times, you don't \nknow a plot element changes anything until a good while after you've \naccepted it as true." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:55:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<21d7a42ff14f53feeb8d7404d3288c48.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can do quick and dirty.\n\nGraft on a head, route in the spinal chord, give the two time to recover,\ncut off the right (or was it the left?) head.\n\nYou'd need to have identical or clones.\n\nIn order for it to work longterm.\n\nBut if you were willing to graft your own head onto body after body, you\ncould do it with unrelated bodies.\n\nYou'd have to get a new one every six months or so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, given the degree of tissue matching that would be required for\nthe operation in question to succeed, it would be surprising if Typhon\nand Piaton were _not_ close relatives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I considered that, but if tissue matching were necessary, he'd use a\nclone.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:02:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSame with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his omnipresence\nmeans \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in keeping with the literary\nstyle of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is\nasking of us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in all\nthe various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes any sense\nto assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise is in fact\nInire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:\n\n\"X might be Inire. They both look like monkeys!\"\n\n\"Well, X doesn't act much like Inire.\"\n\n\"Why the monkey thing, then?\"\n\n\"Well, X's backstory is inconsistent with X being Inire.\"\n\n\"The backstory's a lie.\"\n\n\"Well, X's physical description is incompatible with Inire's.\"\n\n\"Inire is a shapeshifter and master of disguise.\"\n\n\"Well, that would require Inire to be in two places at once.\"\n\n\"Tzadkiel can do that, why not Inire?\"\n\n\"Well, what does it add to the story to assume X is Inire?\"\n\n\"Irrelevant.\"\n\nAt some point in that conversation, the burden of proof was shifted to the\nskeptic and the argument that X is Inire became non-falsifiable. If Inire\nis an immortal shapeshifting, time-travelling bilocating liar, it's\nimpossible to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that any given character\nis not Inire.\n\nBut why look for him, then? It doesn't much matter who Inire is unless\nthere are people he isn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether that rabbit hole leads you to Albuquerque or Anchorage is secondary\nto the idea of looking for the signs, puzzling it together. Gene wanted to\nlayer a series of books that could be studied for generations. That means\nthere are puzzles, clues, and interwoven symbolism abound.\n\nInire is probably, along with Tzdakiel and Typhon, one of the main\ncharacters we should be looking into. Don't you think?\n\n...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<336b558b28190b4f22045ca30032dae7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<21d7a42ff14f53feeb8d7404d3288c48.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ten headed Ravana (sort of an inherently decent Typhon) had, as his name\nimplies, ten heads until he sacrificed one to Ishvara.\n\nLet's say you had a whole bunch of identical clones.\n\nRaise them together as brothers until they are of age.\n\nAnd let's say you kept all but one in suspended animation.\n\nAnd let's further say that you grafted the head of that one onto another\none when you got old.\n\nSo now you have two heads.\n\nYou're cool with yourself. What do you care?\n\nLather, rinse, repeat.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravana\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, given the degree of tissue matching that would be required for\nthe operation in question to succeed, it would be surprising if Typhon\nand Piaton were _not_ close relatives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I considered that, but if tissue matching were necessary, he'd use a\nclone.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:05:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EB3D.9030906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Fechin\n\nNineteen years.\n\nNow *that* is interesting.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (07-07-2010 21:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That era? By his name I'd guess he was born some centuries before the\n20th.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<69b4c26803f1d700cdeb6b477ab5644c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EB9C.8070803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is your point?\n\nIs Tolkien's reading the only reading?\n\nDo you consider Tolkien's reading to be authoritative?\n\nI thought you were a Christian. Are you not a Christian?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is only one reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the way Tolkien described it. See \"The Letters of JRR Tolkien\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In what way does what you say contradict what I say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, to the extent that 1) what I say is the way Tolkien described the\ncreation of his world in very straightforward and engaging terms, and 2)\nthat he never offered \"deep history\" as an explanation...well it doesn't\n*contradict* what your saying. Saying \"Oranges grow from trees in\nFlorida\" does not contradict \"Oranges can be thought of as a symbol of\nfertility.\" But only one statement tells me where to buy oranges\nwholesale.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:07:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EB9C.8070803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whenever you mention an author, you mention the Author.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is only one reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the way Tolkien described it. See \"The Letters of JRR Tolkien\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In what way does what you say contradict what I say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, to the extent that 1) what I say is the way Tolkien described the\ncreation of his world in very straightforward and engaging terms, and 2)\nthat he never offered \"deep history\" as an explanation...well it doesn't\n*contradict* what your saying. Saying \"Oranges grow from trees in\nFlorida\" does not contradict \"Oranges can be thought of as a symbol of\nfertility.\" But only one statement tells me where to buy oranges\nwholesale.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34FB2A.8080103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:09:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<69b4c26803f1d700cdeb6b477ab5644c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThat is your point? Is Tolkien's reading the only reading? Do you consider Tolkien's reading to be authoritative? I thought you were a Christian. Are you not a Christian" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the subtext here? Why would taking the AUTHOR's reading as \nAUTHORitive make one a pagan?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:09:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<548969.21604.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8141d5224ead70e2e83058833452767b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:10:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EDED.3070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is a narrative advantage and why are you talking about it here in\npublic where people can see you?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show Superman\nand\nClark were the same guy, our speculation that they might be *would*\nlead to\na richer reading. We would postulate they were the same guy because that\nwould take the story to a whole new level, not because of some esoteric\nmotivation for weaving the alter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the\ntable.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I find\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34FBB3.7040509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34FB2A.8080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/7/2010 5:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is your point? Is Tolkien's reading the only reading? Do you \nconsider Tolkien's reading to be authoritative? I thought you were a \nChristian. Are you not a Christian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the subtext here? Why would taking the AUTHOR's reading as \nAUTHORitive make one a pagan?\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh. I think I'm being pranked. I feel like an idiot. I'm hip now." } ] }, { "message_id": "<94e9e4611277c1e944da25ab77c7fdbe.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:12:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is a narrative advantage when it's at home with its friends?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly, or Ouen being her son, or a boatman looking for 'Cas. Or FBO\ngoing backwards in time only to keep meeting Severian as if by chance?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 5:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the\ntable.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I\nfind\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<765a27bf634ab114b88b7b7bf75e8fbc.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:33:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F29D.3080805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are wrong, Antonio.\n\nThe writer is the author.\n\nThe reader is the Author.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I should point out in more detail how the two things you are\nconfusing\nare quite distinct.\n\n- One is the author having a purpose for including something in the story.\nThe thing is there because it serves some end. That is its narrative\nadvantage.\n\n- The other is the reader having a purpose for making assumptions about\nwhat\nhappens in the story, i.e., speculation. Speculation is justified because\nit\nenables a novel or in some way extended reading.\n\nIn fact, the reason you've provided yourself for justifying speculation is\nthat it serves to find a narrative advantage to things which otherwise you\nthink don't have any.\n\nNow, I'm not a fan of the idea that everything must provide narrative\nadvantage. In fact I think a decent lengthy book should have detail in it\nthat is there only for its own sake. Maybe it could provide narrative\nadvantage in a parallel story. Maybe the fact that the character forded 3\ninstead of 2 brooks could be significant in some untold story about that\nplace. Maybe the story can even be written one of these days.\n\nIn short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some purpose\nwithin that book. But reader speculation must, because with all the stuff\nthat Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't set some standard,\nthen you can go on indefinitely at random.\n\nWhereas you've done the reverse: you think everything in the stpry must\nserve some purpose, yet speculation is free to roam.\n\n\nRyan Dunn wrote (07-07-2010 22:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly, or Ouen being her son, or a boatman looking for 'Cas. Or FBO\ngoing backwards in time only to keep meeting Severian as if by chance?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 5:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Whereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to the\ntable.\nLee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and motivations, but I\nfind\nthat sketchy. Could your camp do some more sketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3778a65ce60c4a8b57b1f6ffe1c3d4fc.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F794.8040104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're not one of those Reconstructionists or whatever you call them, are\nyou Antonio?\n\nUs Americans, you know, am ignorant and unaccustomed to such advanced\nforms of thought.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whereas you've done the reverse: you think everything in the stpry\nmust serve some purpose, yet speculation is free to roam." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think his point was \"Inire is repeatedly compared to a monkey. This\ncomes up several times with other characters. Are these flags that Inire\nis or has been in other guises. If not, what does Wolfe's repeated use\nof these simian signifiers mean? Why do they occur repeatedly?\"\n\nI don't know if he's on to something or not. But saying \"I don't see how\nthis changes anything\" is just not an answer. A lot times, you don't\nknow a plot element changes anything until a good while after you've\naccepted it as true.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:42:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34FB2A.8080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know.\n\nI am not certain, now, whether I finished that last sentence with a dot or\na squiggly thingie or even one of those stand up mofos followed by a\nsquiggly thingie.\n\nI suppose it's possible I wrote it like that.\n\nCould be.\n\nI don't keep copies.\n\nDid you not miss my minor epistle contrasting the two terms Author?\n\nI remember!\n\nYou're a protestant!\n\nThat solves my puzzlish bewilderness.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is your point? Is Tolkien's reading the only reading? Do you\nconsider Tolkien's reading to be authoritative? I thought you were a\nChristian. Are you not a Christian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the subtext here? Why would taking the AUTHOR's reading as\nAUTHORitive make one a pagan?\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6992b90f3c5fc3465f15af5bd696ff90.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silmarillion", "in_reply_to": "<4C34FBB3.7040509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Master Wynn.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That is your point? Is Tolkien's reading the only reading? Do you\nconsider Tolkien's reading to be authoritative? I thought you were a\nChristian. Are you not a Christian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the subtext here? Why would taking the AUTHOR's reading as\nAUTHORitive make one a pagan?\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oooh. I think I'm being pranked. I feel like an idiot. I'm hip now.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350391.2080908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:45:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:02 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Same with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his\n omnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in\n keeping with the literary style of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's\n PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is asking of us.\n\nI'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in \nall the various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes \nany sense to assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise \nis in fact Inire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not really the course of the argument as I saw it. I can come up \nwith an equally tendentious synopsis of the course of this argument from \nthe other side. To a large extent (not in every case) the course of the \nargument has been people showing how smart they are by coming up with \ncounter-evidence that is totally beside the point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"X might be Inire. They both look like monkeys!\"\n\"Well, X doesn't act much like Inire.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's not really surprising for someone in disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Why the monkey thing, then?\"\n\"Well, X's backstory is inconsistent with X being Inire.\"\n\"The backstory's a lie.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure this was the general response. I think it was that Inire is \na Time-traveller, like Severian. You might as well say that Severian's \n\"backstory\" was inconsistent with him being the Concilliator. This was \ntrue until Urth of the New Sun was published." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Well, X's physical description is incompatible with Inire's.\"\n\"Inire is a shapeshifter and master of disguise.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the only implied disguise that a merely human Inire could not \npull off was the monkey. And I think Ryan was only half-serious (at \nbest) about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Well, that would require Inire to be in two places at once.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. I guess we're talking about Rudesind is Fechin? Here's where \nthings get techy. It might be right. But it is cumbersome. Too many \nballs in the air at once. Which would make me despair of ever coming \nconclusively to a definitive answer. But there are a couple puzzles I've \nthought that at first and then *click*.\n\nBut there are still those monkey arms. Just because one part of a theory \ngoes awry, doesn't mean the whole thing collapses or it is not based on \na firm foundation. Saying that it does mean that is just opportunism on \nthe \"con\" side of the debate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Tzadkiel can do that, why not Inire?\"\n\"Well, what does it add to the story to assume X is Inire?\"\n\"Irrelevant.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem is not that the assertion is irrelevant. It's the at the \ncon-side has decided to stop arguing evidence and begun to argue \nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At some point in that conversation, the burden of proof was shifted to \nthe skeptic and the argument that X is Inire became non-falsifiable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is very little that is falsifiable tBotNS. When I listen to a \ntheory, I think: \"Is this evidence real evidence? Or are the bits of \ntext being offered supposed to mean something else?\" Almost always when \nsomeone is following a false lead (I've been there), it is because he \nthinks the subtext means something but Wolfe has intended something else \nentirely. But determining that requires looking at the text fresh. And \nthat is something people who have read the books 3 or 4 times are \nusually not inclined to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Inire is an immortal shapeshifting, time-travelling bilocating \nliar, it's impossible to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that any \ngiven character is not Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the theory limits it to people with hairy red arms and monkey \nfingers.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3504F6.8080608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:51:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system \ndid not exist in the early 20th century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhy is it important?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3268f6ea24f4b514fc86dd743c25dd24.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350391.2080908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or was that Master Bates?\n\nI thought you got it.\n\nNow I think you didn't get it.\n\nThe reader is the first author.\n\nThe writer is the second.\n\nDoes that make more sense?\n\nHardly anyone understands the proper use of capitalization unless they\nknow a bisseldeutsch.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:02 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Same with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his\n omnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in\n keeping with the literary style of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's\n PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is asking of us.\n\nI'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in\nall the various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes\nany sense to assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise\nis in fact Inire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not really the course of the argument as I saw it. I can come up\nwith an equally tendentious synopsis of the course of this argument from\nthe other side. To a large extent (not in every case) the course of the\nargument has been people showing how smart they are by coming up with\ncounter-evidence that is totally beside the point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"X might be Inire. They both look like monkeys!\"\n\"Well, X doesn't act much like Inire.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that's not really surprising for someone in disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Why the monkey thing, then?\"\n\"Well, X's backstory is inconsistent with X being Inire.\"\n\"The backstory's a lie.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure this was the general response. I think it was that Inire is\na Time-traveller, like Severian. You might as well say that Severian's\n\"backstory\" was inconsistent with him being the Concilliator. This was\ntrue until Urth of the New Sun was published." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Well, X's physical description is incompatible with Inire's.\"\n\"Inire is a shapeshifter and master of disguise.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, the only implied disguise that a merely human Inire could not\npull off was the monkey. And I think Ryan was only half-serious (at\nbest) about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Well, that would require Inire to be in two places at once.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. I guess we're talking about Rudesind is Fechin? Here's where\nthings get techy. It might be right. But it is cumbersome. Too many\nballs in the air at once. Which would make me despair of ever coming\nconclusively to a definitive answer. But there are a couple puzzles I've\nthought that at first and then *click*.\n\nBut there are still those monkey arms. Just because one part of a theory\ngoes awry, doesn't mean the whole thing collapses or it is not based on\na firm foundation. Saying that it does mean that is just opportunism on\nthe \"con\" side of the debate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Tzadkiel can do that, why not Inire?\"\n\"Well, what does it add to the story to assume X is Inire?\"\n\"Irrelevant.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is not that the assertion is irrelevant. It's the at the\ncon-side has decided to stop arguing evidence and begun to argue\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At some point in that conversation, the burden of proof was shifted to\nthe skeptic and the argument that X is Inire became non-falsifiable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is very little that is falsifiable tBotNS. When I listen to a\ntheory, I think: \"Is this evidence real evidence? Or are the bits of\ntext being offered supposed to mean something else?\" Almost always when\nsomeone is following a false lead (I've been there), it is because he\nthinks the subtext means something but Wolfe has intended something else\nentirely. But determining that requires looking at the text fresh. And\nthat is something people who have read the books 3 or 4 times are\nusually not inclined to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Inire is an immortal shapeshifting, time-travelling bilocating\nliar, it's impossible to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that any\ngiven character is not Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the theory limits it to people with hairy red arms and monkey\nfingers.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bfa0253c312d9f2c4f873f866c9496f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:58:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3504F6.8080608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350826.9040907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:05:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F4E3.9020109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 22:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show\nSuperman and Clark were the same guy, our speculation that they\nmight be *would* lead to a richer reading. We would postulate they\nwere the same guy because that would take the story to a whole new\nlevel, not because of some esoteric motivation for weaving the\nalter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to\nthe table. Lee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and\nmotivations, but I find that sketchy. Could your camp do some more\nsketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not talking about narrative advantage. I'm talking about\nspeculative advantage.\n\nAnd as a side note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't\nsee that real life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. What's the speculative advantage to Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That has been discussed to death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more\ntextual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's probably the only 'puzzle' in the book that everyone gets. The only way\nit could be more transparent would be if instead of Cas the boatman would\nhave called her Dorcas. It's not like the boatman calls her Fifi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the real test is: \"Do the accumulated facts form a real pattern\nor only a perceived pattern?\" Almost anything you say about Wolfe's\nfiction *could* be shunted with \"who cares? This won't change my opinion\n on the story.\" If you feel that way, fine. Go on to the next post. You\nhave nothing to add. People post these theories because they see what\nlooks like a deliberate pattern. They want someone to say \"It couldn't\nwork because...\" or \"Here's something else that fits that pattern....\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're *again* trying to find patterns for patterns' sake. That's what's\nwrong with it.\n\nPatterns come by the dozens. In books as rich in detail as Wolfe's you can\nget patterns out of anything. It's futile. You think you're clever because\nyou've found a pattern, when in fact the hard thing is not to find them.\nFor the umpteenth time, the *worth* of patterns is what's at stake. Not\ntheir viability. To show a pattern is viable in a Wolfe book is like showing\nthere are stars in the sky. \"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\nimpossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just ignored, as\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis. The real test is 'that pattern is\ninteresting because...'. And what I've asked and haven't yet seen is what\nfollows in that ellipsis." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350994.6040401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire's absence and omnipresence", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (07-07-2010 22:53):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Same with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his\nomnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in keeping\nwith the literary style of Grandma Dorcas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just as an aside - we follow Severian's trail till he becomes Autarch. I \ncan't find any reason why Inire should appear before that point. Unless it \nwas casually - and here we have someone who should be him at the site of the \nold Autarch's accident. Later on we have Severian mentioning meeting him \nwhile Autarch. Earlier on we have the girls (remebers the girls?) telling \ntheir dealings with him. He's not even absent in direct discourse since we \nhave the letter. On the other hand, in what does his omnipresence consist \nexcept people mentioning him? In short, I dont see that he is either \nphysically absent or omnipresent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350A74.3050306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F794.8040104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 22:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whereas you've done the reverse: you think everything in the stpry\nmust serve some purpose, yet speculation is free to roam." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think his point was \"Inire is repeatedly compared to a monkey. This\ncomes up several times with other characters. Are these flags that Inire\nis or has been in other guises. If not, what does Wolfe's repeated use\nof these simian signifiers mean? Why do they occur repeatedly?\"\n\nI don't know if he's on to something or not. But saying \"I don't see how\nthis changes anything\" is just not an answer. A lot times, you don't\nknow a plot element changes anything until a good while after you've\naccepted it as true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm positing it as true - say, Rudesind is Inire. And I'm asking 'and now \nwhat?'. And I'm not getting an answer.\n\nAs to the significance of the simian signifiers, it could of course be that \nwherever they're present we're dealing with an agent of Inire. Never \ndisputed that. Though I find it a wild stretch.\n\nOr maybe they tell us more about the characters' idea of monkeys than of the \nbeings being characterised." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350A91.9020503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:15:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350391.2080908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, yes it is, actually. Unless you can explain how it is that the \nperson not only puts on a mask and changes his clothes but also \ndisguises his voice. Has he learned to control his own habitual gestures \nand verbal tics? How? Where? Has he practiced the vocabulary and \ninflections of another age and social level? Where?\n\nIf you can answer those questions, you have a theory. If you don't, \nyou're merely asserting and following that up with complaining." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 5:02 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Same with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his\n omnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in\n keeping with the literary style of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's\n PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is asking of us.\n\n \nI'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in \nall the various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes \nany sense to assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise \nis in fact Inire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not really the course of the argument as I saw it. I can come up \nwith an equally tendentious synopsis of the course of this argument from \nthe other side. To a large extent (not in every case) the course of the \nargument has been people showing how smart they are by coming up with \ncounter-evidence that is totally beside the point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\"X might be Inire. They both look like monkeys!\"\n \n\"Well, X doesn't act much like Inire.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's not really surprising for someone in disguise." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350ADF.7000306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:16:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<1bfa0253c312d9f2c4f873f866c9496f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you think you have a theory, stop posting gnomic fragments of thought \nand lay out your theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAre you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:17:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350A74.3050306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As to the significance of the simian signifiers, it could of course be that\nwherever they're present we're dealing with an agent of Inire. Never\ndisputed that. Though I find it a wild stretch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think this may be the simplest explanation available. Rudesind\nprobably is Inire's agent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350C02.2020001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3504F6.8080608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, of course, a person from 1600 can't be recruited for a 2010 job.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (07-07-2010 23:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C350D29.8060207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (08-07-2010 00:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques >\n\n As to the significance of the simian signifiers, it could of course\n be that wherever they're present we're dealing with an agent of\n Inire. Never disputed that. Though I find it a wild stretch.\n\n\nActually, I think this may be the simplest explanation available.\nRudesind probably is Inire's agent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I don't find that a stretch at all, though I'd prefer a little more \nfreedom for him. What I find a stretch is to associate haviong simian traits \n(because people with red hair remind monkeys!?... I think this happens only \nin the english-speaking world, but Wolfe belongs to that world, even if he \nof all people might not be subject to such centrism) with being an agent of \nInire. If nothing else because it's not that natural, is it? You don't \nrecruit your people based on some such trait, and nothing stops the \nanatagonist from doing the same." } ] }, { "message_id": "<789945DBD64B4859B9F9EECCA87EA941@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:29:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34EDED.3070502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: James Wynn \n\n What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother\n\nIt creates verisimiltude at least; Severian can raise the dead, but he does not walk around surrounded by a crowd of newly raised returnees. Yet how would he discover he can raise the dead, if it does not happen? The answer is that he inadvertently gets put in a place/position where he spontaneously raises one close to him.\n\nI don't think it is vital or necessarily even important to the overall story that Dorcas is his grandmother.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<59b762c9e019715a00149bb6538dbaa6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:30:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350826.9040907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What the hell do you expect from a protestant?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 22:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But *if* Wolfe had written Superman and the etxt didn't show\nSuperman and Clark were the same guy, our speculation that they\nmight be *would* lead to a richer reading. We would postulate they\nwere the same guy because that would take the story to a whole new\nlevel, not because of some esoteric motivation for weaving the\nalter ego theme into it.\n\nWhereas no one has yet explained just what the\nconsidering-that-some-characters-in-the-BNS-are-Inire brings to\nthe table. Lee points to it enlightening Inire's nature and\nmotivations, but I find that sketchy. Could your camp do some more\nsketching, perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not talking about narrative advantage. I'm talking about\nspeculative advantage.\n\nAnd as a side note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't\nsee that real life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay. What's the speculative advantage to Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That has been discussed to death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more\ntextual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's probably the only 'puzzle' in the book that everyone gets. The only\nway\nit could be more transparent would be if instead of Cas the boatman would\nhave called her Dorcas. It's not like the boatman calls her Fifi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the real test is: \"Do the accumulated facts form a real pattern\nor only a perceived pattern?\" Almost anything you say about Wolfe's\nfiction *could* be shunted with \"who cares? This won't change my opinion\n on the story.\" If you feel that way, fine. Go on to the next post. You\nhave nothing to add. People post these theories because they see what\nlooks like a deliberate pattern. They want someone to say \"It couldn't\nwork because...\" or \"Here's something else that fits that pattern....\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're *again* trying to find patterns for patterns' sake. That's what's\nwrong with it.\n\nPatterns come by the dozens. In books as rich in detail as Wolfe's you can\nget patterns out of anything. It's futile. You think you're clever because\nyou've found a pattern, when in fact the hard thing is not to find them.\nFor the umpteenth time, the *worth* of patterns is what's at stake. Not\ntheir viability. To show a pattern is viable in a Wolfe book is like\nshowing\nthere are stars in the sky. \"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\nimpossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just ignored, as\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis. The real test is 'that pattern is\ninteresting because...'. And what I've asked and haven't yet seen is what\nfollows in that ellipsis.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<742dd9d26b3b23a56c83abfcf01c83c0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:33:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350A91.9020503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is this a problem?\n\nPeople do these things.\n\nI have done all of these things.\n\nI do some of them quite regularly.\n\nWhat the hell do you think you are saying?\n\nDo you think that the stuff that you describe is somehow esoteric?\n\nDo you believe that everyone in the World is as isolated from Reality as\nyou are?\n\nI assure you that there are several people who are not.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, yes it is, actually. Unless you can explain how it is that the\nperson not only puts on a mask and changes his clothes but also\ndisguises his voice. Has he learned to control his own habitual gestures\nand verbal tics? How? Where? Has he practiced the vocabulary and\ninflections of another age and social level? Where?\n\nIf you can answer those questions, you have a theory. If you don't,\nyou're merely asserting and following that up with complaining.\n\nOn 7/7/2010 5:02 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Same with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his\n omnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in\n keeping with the literary style of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's\n PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is asking of us.\n\n\nI'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in\nall the various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes\nany sense to assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise\nis in fact Inire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not really the course of the argument as I saw it. I can come up\nwith an equally tendentious synopsis of the course of this argument from\nthe other side. To a large extent (not in every case) the course of the\nargument has been people showing how smart they are by coming up with\ncounter-evidence that is totally beside the point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"X might be Inire. They both look like monkeys!\"\n\n\"Well, X doesn't act much like Inire.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that's not really surprising for someone in disguise.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3f4a19541b6890d01c8ae4425e5f7aae.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:37:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350ADF.7000306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no theory.\n\nI am not you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you think you have a theory, stop posting gnomic fragments of thought\nand lay out your theory.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\nby\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3cd248e65a453ff992fb8f0476f5ace5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:38:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350ADF.7000306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you are wise, Dr Stockhoff, you will reflect upon what you know of me.\n\n\n\nWhat am I saying?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you think you have a theory, stop posting gnomic fragments of thought\nand lay out your theory.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\nby\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:39:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C350C02.2020001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or even people who were born in 1881.\n\nThey couldn't possibly do the kindsa things us modern guys do.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, of course, a person from 1600 can't be recruited for a 2010 job.\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (07-07-2010 23:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6794628009288b502cfa9d7809d0231e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:44:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n byRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<789945DBD64B4859B9F9EECCA87EA941@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also - and this is in fact esoteric knowledge - children of incest have\ninteresting abilities.\n\nThe children of sibling incest, for instance, are royal, with all that\nimplies.\n\nThe children of cross generational incest have other abilities.\n\nThe problem is that you people announce that you don't believe this and\nyou don't believe that and then you ask those of us who do believe this\nand that to account for ourselves.\n\nYou guys can and should pay specific attention to the space where my left\ntesticle used to be when you kiss my ass.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: James Wynn\n\n What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother\n\nIt creates verisimiltude at least; Severian can raise the dead, but he\ndoes not walk around surrounded by a crowd of newly raised returnees. Yet\nhow would he discover he can raise the dead, if it does not happen? The\nanswer is that he inadvertently gets put in a place/position where he\nspontaneously raises one close to him.\n\nI don't think it is vital or necessarily even important to the overall\nstory that Dorcas is his grandmother.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:48:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<1bfa0253c312d9f2c4f873f866c9496f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "___\nIn 1923 he emigrated to the United States and landed in New York. He was\nalready well known in the States from canvases sent to American and\nEuropean exhibitions. In fact, it was his American friends and patrons\nthat helped him leave Russia. His portraits were in demand immediately and\nhe won the first prize at the Academy in New York in 1924 and a medal at\nthe 1926 International Exposition in Philadelphia.\n\nFechin became well-known for his powerful portraits that always seemed to\nradiate from the eyes of the subject. Some of his more renowned subjects\nare Nikolai Lenin, Karl Marx, Frieda Lawrence and Lillian Gish. At an\nearly age he had learned carving and produced impressionistic sculpture\nprimarily from wood. At the Academy he used other materials but he was\nimpatient about the necessary construction of armatures and had no care\nfor the seemingly endless casting processes, while the creative process\nbecame the lesser part. With wood he could begin creating immediately.\n---\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\nby\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3512A6.6020005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:49:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<742dd9d26b3b23a56c83abfcf01c83c0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Case in point.\n\nI predict that you will continue to make bizarre assertions and never \nonce explain them or explain why we should care." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhy is this a problem?\n\nPeople do these things.\n\nI have done all of these things.\n\nI do some of them quite regularly.\n\nWhat the hell do you think you are saying?\n\nDo you think that the stuff that you describe is somehow esoteric?\n\nDo you believe that everyone in the World is as isolated from Reality as\nyou are?\n\nI assure you that there are several people who are not.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, yes it is, actually. Unless you can explain how it is that the\nperson not only puts on a mask and changes his clothes but also\ndisguises his voice. Has he learned to control his own habitual gestures\nand verbal tics? How? Where? Has he practiced the vocabulary and\ninflections of another age and social level? Where?\n\nIf you can answer those questions, you have a theory. If you don't,\nyou're merely asserting and following that up with complaining.\n\nOn 7/7/2010 5:02 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Same with Inire. His physical absence in conjunction with his\n omnipresence means \"LOOK FOR SIGNS\" to me, because that is in\n keeping with the literary style of Grandma Dorcas. In fact, it's\n PRECISELY the type of thing Wolfe is asking of us.\n\n\nI'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in\nall the various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes\nany sense to assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise\nis in fact Inire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is not really the course of the argument as I saw it. I can come up\nwith an equally tendentious synopsis of the course of this argument from\nthe other side. To a large extent (not in every case) the course of the\nargument has been people showing how smart they are by coming up with\ncounter-evidence that is totally beside the point.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"X might be Inire. They both look like monkeys!\"\n\n\"Well, X doesn't act much like Inire.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, that's not really surprising for someone in disguise.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3512B5.6060500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:50:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<3f4a19541b6890d01c8ae4425e5f7aae.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know you don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI have no theory.\n\nI am not you.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you think you have a theory, stop posting gnomic fragments of thought\nand lay out your theory.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\nby\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3512C7.40505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:50:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<3cd248e65a453ff992fb8f0476f5ace5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIf you are wise, Dr Stockhoff, you will reflect upon what you know of me.\n\n\n\nWhat am I saying?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you think you have a theory, stop posting gnomic fragments of thought\nand lay out your theory.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\nby\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C351323.3050004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T23:52:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent wikipasting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n___\nIn 1923 he emigrated to the United States and landed in New York. He was\nalready well known in the States from canvases sent to American and\nEuropean exhibitions. In fact, it was his American friends and patrons\nthat helped him leave Russia. His portraits were in demand immediately and\nhe won the first prize at the Academy in New York in 1924 and a medal at\nthe 1926 International Exposition in Philadelphia.\n\nFechin became well-known for his powerful portraits that always seemed to\nradiate from the eyes of the subject. Some of his more renowned subjects\nare Nikolai Lenin, Karl Marx, Frieda Lawrence and Lillian Gish. At an\nearly age he had learned carving and produced impressionistic sculpture\nprimarily from wood. At the Academy he used other materials but he was\nimpatient about the necessary construction of armatures and had no care\nfor the seemingly endless casting processes, while the creative process\nbecame the lesser part. With wood he could begin creating immediately.\n---\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you very, very sure about that?\n\nIn Russia in the late nineteenth century, a Byzantine system of\nrecruitment was, you think, unlikely to survive?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why is it important?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You did. But were you finished?\nHow did Rudesind become a curator?\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\nby\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:42 PM\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "true...\nSo, does someone have a theory he'd like to share?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I thought I'd mentioned Fechin = our Fechin already, and Rudesind was\ncollected along with the paintings of that era to care for them.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T00:55:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3504F6.8080608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he related how they become librarians. IIRC, curators also oversee\nthe Botanical Gardens. I don't see that the Book of Gold would\nparticularly attract kids suitable to gardening.\n\nIt's not hard to imagine the Vizier and Master Hangsemstrait returning\nfrom some obscure province with a flierload of \"newly rediscovered\"\npaintings and a surplus apprentice." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35273D.5040807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T01:17:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nBecause Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he related how they become librarians. IIRC, curators also oversee\nthe Botanical Gardens. I don't see that the Book of Gold would\nparticularly attract kids suitable to gardening.\n\nIt's not hard to imagine the Vizier and Master Hangsemstrait returning\nfrom some obscure province with a flierload of \"newly rediscovered\"\npaintings and a surplus apprentice.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C352D37.7030803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T01:43:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll try to present my point of view in more general terms.\n\nWhen we connect real world dots, we don't do it guided by our impressions of \nhow the order of the universe woud be neater. We do it according to how the \nconnections may give us a new understanding of what's going on. You don't \naddress a criminal case, for instance, by asking yourself what given \nconnections might result in a more stylish architecture of the crime.\n\nImagine if you were reading a mystery and your attempt to find out what had \nhappened was based not on the story itself but on the type of person the \nauthor was more likely to prefer as a criminal, or the way a given solution \nwould make the plot fall into some esoteric category you think the author is \nfond of.\n\nIf I were the author I wouldn't like it. I'm here telling you a story, doing \nmy best to make it lifelike or vivider than that, full of hard-crafted \nuniqueness, and there are you trying to make it all fit some stock model. Of \ncourse, a kindly author might not let show disappointment, if after all such \nexercises make the book enjoyable to you.\n\nI don't think good authors write cryptic books with the intention of having \na legion of readers trying to figure out the author's thought processes or \nraw devices. The clues that are there are meant for the reader to figure out \nthe world being described. The line between the two lies where the reader's \nendeavours address the story given (in itself, as if it were not art but a \nreal chronicle), or the inferred artistic process.\n\nIf I sound acrimonious it's not on purpose. It's just that I find your \nefforts quite good - probably better than I'd manage myself - but misguided." } ] }, { "message_id": "<76e51a826d3f75af9380c7fe3ef67159.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T01:45:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35273D.5040807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To ask the answer to questions that have already been answered is a\nrhetorical tactic typically used with hostile opponents.\n\nIt is typically used by lawyers examining witnesses with an audience\nconsisting of the jury.\n\nJuries, as is notorious, are selected for stupidity.\n\nYou trick your opponent into saying something false.\n\nYou get him to confirm that he believes what he said.\n\nYou then proceed to falsify the false belief to which he has committed\nhimself.\n\nThis impresses idiotes etc.\n\nBy using this tactic you are telling your interlocutor(s) that you believe\n(that) t(he)y is/are stupid.\n\nDo you in fact believe that the people you are talking to are stupid?\n\nDo you, as I suspect, believe that you are much more intelligent than the\ngeneral run of people on this mailing list?\n\nOr is it just me and a few others that you feel superior to?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, he related how they become librarians. IIRC, curators also oversee\nthe Botanical Gardens. I don't see that the Book of Gold would\nparticularly attract kids suitable to gardening.\n\nIt's not hard to imagine the Vizier and Master Hangsemstrait returning\nfrom some obscure province with a flierload of \"newly rediscovered\"\npaintings and a surplus apprentice.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T01:47:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C352D37.7030803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My appreciation for what you say cannot be expressed in words.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll try to present my point of view in more general terms.\n\nWhen we connect real world dots, we don't do it guided by our impressions\nof\nhow the order of the universe woud be neater. We do it according to how\nthe\nconnections may give us a new understanding of what's going on. You don't\naddress a criminal case, for instance, by asking yourself what given\nconnections might result in a more stylish architecture of the crime.\n\nImagine if you were reading a mystery and your attempt to find out what\nhad\nhappened was based not on the story itself but on the type of person the\nauthor was more likely to prefer as a criminal, or the way a given\nsolution\nwould make the plot fall into some esoteric category you think the author\nis\nfond of.\n\nIf I were the author I wouldn't like it. I'm here telling you a story,\ndoing\nmy best to make it lifelike or vivider than that, full of hard-crafted\nuniqueness, and there are you trying to make it all fit some stock model.\nOf\ncourse, a kindly author might not let show disappointment, if after all\nsuch\nexercises make the book enjoyable to you.\n\nI don't think good authors write cryptic books with the intention of\nhaving\na legion of readers trying to figure out the author's thought processes or\nraw devices. The clues that are there are meant for the reader to figure\nout\nthe world being described. The line between the two lies where the\nreader's\nendeavours address the story given (in itself, as if it were not art but a\nreal chronicle), or the inferred artistic process.\n\nIf I sound acrimonious it's not on purpose. It's just that I find your\nefforts quite good - probably better than I'd manage myself - but\nmisguided.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C352F46.5090100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T01:52:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<76e51a826d3f75af9380c7fe3ef67159.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunie, Jeff is capable of letting me know if I understood him correctly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTo ask the answer to questions that have already been answered is a\nrhetorical tactic typically used with hostile opponents.\n\nIt is typically used by lawyers examining witnesses with an audience\nconsisting of the jury.\n\nJuries, as is notorious, are selected for stupidity.\n\nYou trick your opponent into saying something false.\n\nYou get him to confirm that he believes what he said.\n\nYou then proceed to falsify the false belief to which he has committed\nhimself.\n\nThis impresses idiotes etc.\n\nBy using this tactic you are telling your interlocutor(s) that you believe\n(that) t(he)y is/are stupid.\n\nDo you in fact believe that the people you are talking to are stupid?\n\nDo you, as I suspect, believe that you are much more intelligent than the\ngeneral run of people on this mailing list?\n\nOr is it just me and a few others that you feel superior to?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, he related how they become librarians. IIRC, curators also oversee\nthe Botanical Gardens. I don't see that the Book of Gold would\nparticularly attract kids suitable to gardening.\n\nIt's not hard to imagine the Vizier and Master Hangsemstrait returning\nfrom some obscure province with a flierload of \"newly rediscovered\"\npaintings and a surplus apprentice.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T01:58:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35273D.5040807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. I'm not too sure how much of a cover story would be needed, though.\nTzadkiel's sailors don't seem to treat their time-travel like a deep dark\nsecret, and Rudesind doesn't seem the type who could be coutned on to keep\nit, unless he somehow didn't know it himself. But he had to have been told\nsomething to account for the change in the moon, besides \"we do things\ndifferently in South America.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<011001cb1e42$e4e6d900$08cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T02:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in all\nthe various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes any sense\nto assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise is in fact\nInire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At some point in that conversation, the burden of proof was shifted to the\nskeptic and the argument that X is Inire became non-falsifiable. If Inire\nis an immortal shapeshifting, time-travelling bilocating liar, it's\nimpossible to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that any given\ncharacter\nis not Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent! That is exactly the way the argument has gone, both now and in\nthe past.\n\nAnt?nio wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To show a pattern is viable in a Wolfe book is like showing\nthere are stars in the sky. \"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\nimpossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just ignored, as\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ditto.\n\nThings that get ignored tend to be anything in the text that that doesn't\nfit or contradicts the pattern. It's okay to go on about monkey features and\nnoses, but when, say, the old man at Casdoe's says of Fechin \"His face\nwasn't a monkey's face at all. Fechin was handsome--the handsomest around.\",\nthat gets waved away. The old man also said that Fechin was \"A tall, wild\nboy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, . . .\"\n(SWORD, chap. XV) But the old Boatman said of Inire, \"Just a little man he\nis, with a wry neck and bow legs.\" (SHADOW, chap. XXII) \"Tall\" doesn't fit\nwith \"little\" and \"bow legs\", but I guess that's where the lying comes in.\nOr the shapeshifting.\n\nFechin seems to connect the old man at Casdoe's with Rudesind; that much is\nin the text, but that doesn't make any or all of the three men Inire.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7951684605fb4eb2ba339f57b91c75fc.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T02:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C352F46.5090100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I say, those who wish me to perceive them as friendly persons tend to\naddress me as Josh.\n\nI can only think that whether or not I like you is a matter of\nindifference to you.\n\nThis tears at my soul in ways that I cannot express, and so will not\nattempt to express.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunie, Jeff is capable of letting me know if I understood him correctly.\n\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To ask the answer to questions that have already been answered is a\nrhetorical tactic typically used with hostile opponents.\n\nIt is typically used by lawyers examining witnesses with an audience\nconsisting of the jury.\n\nJuries, as is notorious, are selected for stupidity.\n\nYou trick your opponent into saying something false.\n\nYou get him to confirm that he believes what he said.\n\nYou then proceed to falsify the false belief to which he has committed\nhimself.\n\nThis impresses idiotes etc.\n\nBy using this tactic you are telling your interlocutor(s) that you\nbelieve\n(that) t(he)y is/are stupid.\n\nDo you in fact believe that the people you are talking to are stupid?\n\nDo you, as I suspect, believe that you are much more intelligent than\nthe\ngeneral run of people on this mailing list?\n\nOr is it just me and a few others that you feel superior to?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Because Wolfe told us how people become curators. Because that system\ndid not exist in the early 20th century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, he related how they become librarians. IIRC, curators also\noversee\nthe Botanical Gardens. I don't see that the Book of Gold would\nparticularly attract kids suitable to gardening.\n\nIt's not hard to imagine the Vizier and Master Hangsemstrait returning\nfrom some obscure province with a flierload of \"newly rediscovered\"\npaintings and a surplus apprentice.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C353EA7.9080803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T02:57:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don''t think any cover story would be needed at all. Do you refer to this:\n\n\"This isn't the Citadel,\" I reminded him again. \"How did you come to be \nhere,\nanyway? Did they bring you here to clean these?\"\n\"That's right. That's right.\" He leaned on my arm. \"There's a logical\nexplanation for everything, and don't you forget it. That must have been the\nway. Father Inire wanted me to clean his, so here I am.\" He paused, \nconsidering.\n\"Wait a bit, I've got it wrong. I had talent as a boy, that's what I'm \nsupposed\nto say. My parents, you know, always encouraged me, and I'd draw for \nhours. I\nrecollect one time I spent all one sunny day sketching in chalk on the \nback of\nour house.\"\n. . .\nI asked Rudesind who it was who had told him he must tell me about his \nchildhood.\n\"Why, Father Inire,\" he said, cocking his head up to look at me. \"Who do you\nsuppose?\"\n\nI take this as some direction Inire gave him upon posting him as a \nlookout for Severian. But it would explain the mention of Fechin, who is \nafter all not a saint.\n\nCould this also be a clue?\n\nSaint Rudesind: Born in Galicia, Spain, in 907 to a noble family, he was \nappointed bishop \nof Mondonedo at the age of eighteen and against his personal wishes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMeaning, returning from the past. Right?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. I'm not too sure how much of a cover story would be needed, though.\nTzadkiel's sailors don't seem to treat their time-travel like a deep dark\nsecret, and Rudesind doesn't seem the type who could be coutned on to keep\nit, unless he somehow didn't know it himself. But he had to have been told\nsomething to account for the change in the moon, besides \"we do things\ndifferently in South America.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C354032.1090001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did Casdoe's husband get there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMeaning, returning from the past. Right?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. I'm not too sure how much of a cover story would be needed, though.\nTzadkiel's sailors don't seem to treat their time-travel like a deep dark\nsecret, and Rudesind doesn't seem the type who could be coutned on to keep\nit, unless he somehow didn't know it himself. But he had to have been told\nsomething to account for the change in the moon, besides \"we do things\ndifferently in South America.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C353EA7.9080803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People are often named after saints without themselves being the saints\nthat they are named after.\n\nI believe this to be the case, in any case.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don''t think any cover story would be needed at all. Do you refer to\nthis:\n\n\"This isn't the Citadel,\" I reminded him again. \"How did you come to be\nhere,\nanyway? Did they bring you here to clean these?\"\n\"That's right. That's right.\" He leaned on my arm. \"There's a logical\nexplanation for everything, and don't you forget it. That must have been\nthe\nway. Father Inire wanted me to clean his, so here I am.\" He paused,\nconsidering.\n\"Wait a bit, I've got it wrong. I had talent as a boy, that's what I'm\nsupposed\nto say. My parents, you know, always encouraged me, and I'd draw for\nhours. I\nrecollect one time I spent all one sunny day sketching in chalk on the\nback of\nour house.\"\n. . .\nI asked Rudesind who it was who had told him he must tell me about his\nchildhood.\n\"Why, Father Inire,\" he said, cocking his head up to look at me. \"Who do\nyou\nsuppose?\"\n\nI take this as some direction Inire gave him upon posting him as a\nlookout for Severian. But it would explain the mention of Fechin, who is\nafter all not a saint.\n\nCould this also be a clue?\n\nSaint Rudesind: Born in Galicia, Spain, in 907 to a noble family, he was\nappointed bishop \nof Mondonedo at the age of eighteen and against his personal wishes.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure. I'm not too sure how much of a cover story would be needed,\nthough.\nTzadkiel's sailors don't seem to treat their time-travel like a deep\ndark\nsecret, and Rudesind doesn't seem the type who could be coutned on to\nkeep\nit, unless he somehow didn't know it himself. But he had to have been\ntold\nsomething to account for the change in the moon, besides \"we do things\ndifferently in South America.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C354032.1090001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did Casdoe's husband get where?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How did Casdoe's husband get there?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure. I'm not too sure how much of a cover story would be needed,\nthough.\nTzadkiel's sailors don't seem to treat their time-travel like a deep\ndark\nsecret, and Rudesind doesn't seem the type who could be coutned on to\nkeep\nit, unless he somehow didn't know it himself. But he had to have been\ntold\nsomething to account for the change in the moon, besides \"we do things\ndifferently in South America.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:11:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C354032.1090001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You want to know the plot device?\n\nIs that what you are asking?\n\nThis is of a piece with you questioning my gnomic utterances.\n\nI believe that you believe whatever it is you believe.\n\nYou are sincere in your belief.\n\nIn whatever you believe in.\n\nWhatever that is exactly.\n\nIt's your insisting that everyone use words the way you use them that I\ndislike.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How did Casdoe's husband get there?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Meaning, returning from the past. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure. I'm not too sure how much of a cover story would be needed,\nthough.\nTzadkiel's sailors don't seem to treat their time-travel like a deep\ndark\nsecret, and Rudesind doesn't seem the type who could be coutned on to\nkeep\nit, unless he somehow didn't know it himself. But he had to have been\ntold\nsomething to account for the change in the moon, besides \"we do things\ndifferently in South America.\"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:15:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<011001cb1e42$e4e6d900$08cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\n\n\n+1.\n\nAnother +1 for Antonio's standard, which I phrase as: does a proposed story\nenhance the overall story, or not? I enjoy Wolfe because he is not just a\ncreator of \"puzzle boxes\". Rather, he creates opportunities for discovering\nand constructing within the white space stories which enrich the\nnarrative-as-told. Not in some cheap hermaneutic, \"hidden meaning\",\nexplanation-of-everything, whatever, sense; but in the sense of enriching\none's sense of the characters, their motivations, their possibilities etc\netc.\n\nSometimes I don't think he pulls it off: eg \"An Evil Guest\". I just can't\nfind a story-enhancement reward for the effort of trying to work out the\nwhite space, in that one.\n\nAnother eg: Sev's family. The text seems to have all kinds of hints inviting\nus to try to figure out his family tree, but I think there is neither enough\ninformation nor enough story-potential to do anything with this except drive\noneself bat-shit crazy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3544EA.4050301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<011001cb1e42$e4e6d900$08cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There needs to be a principle of, I don't know, conservation of \nexplanation or something. And we need to call each other on it.\n\nFor example, if a mysterious figure gains powers (expert acting, \nsharpshooting, shapeshifting, timetripping) to explain specific textual \nfeatures, that in other contexts begin to overlap and become redundant \n(i.e., a feature can be explained by any of these powers), then we have \na condition of overexplanation. There are more explanations than there \nare problems and they contradict one another. Why would the burglar use \nhis powers of disguise if he could simply go back in time to when the \napartment was empty? And so on. Wolfe's characters often address this \nissue directly.\n\nOverexplanation is a violation of form. Sometimes the most mundane \nexplanations are best, because they require the least effort and never \nlead to redundancy. One asks questions not to challenge but to test.\n\nI'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well, but does this make sense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in all\nthe various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes any sense\nto assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise is in fact\nInire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snip]\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At some point in that conversation, the burden of proof was shifted to the\nskeptic and the argument that X is Inire became non-falsifiable. If Inire\nis an immortal shapeshifting, time-travelling bilocating liar, it's\nimpossible to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that any given\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "character\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is not Inire.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Excellent! That is exactly the way the argument has gone, both now and in\nthe past.\n\nAnt?nio wrote:\n[snip]\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To show a pattern is viable in a Wolfe book is like showing\nthere are stars in the sky. \"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\nimpossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just ignored, as\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis. [snip]\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ditto.\n\nThings that get ignored tend to be anything in the text that that doesn't\nfit or contradicts the pattern. It's okay to go on about monkey features and\nnoses, but when, say, the old man at Casdoe's says of Fechin \"His face\nwasn't a monkey's face at all. Fechin was handsome--the handsomest around.\",\nthat gets waved away. The old man also said that Fechin was \"A tall, wild\nboy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, . . .\"\n(SWORD, chap. XV) But the old Boatman said of Inire, \"Just a little man he\nis, with a wry neck and bow legs.\" (SHADOW, chap. XXII) \"Tall\" doesn't fit\nwith \"little\" and \"bow legs\", but I guess that's where the lying comes in.\nOr the shapeshifting.\n\nFechin seems to connect the old man at Casdoe's with Rudesind; that much is\nin the text, but that doesn't make any or all of the three men Inire.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C354F01.1030103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T04:07:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C353EA7.9080803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 9:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI asked Rudesind who it was who had told him he must tell me about his\nchildhood.\n\"Why, Father Inire,\" he said, cocking his head up to look at me. \"Who do\nyou\nsuppose?\"\n\nI take this as some direction Inire gave him upon posting him as a\nlookout for Severian. But it would explain the mention of Fechin, who is\nafter all not a saint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just recalled that Fechin is also known to the old man in the \ncabin, and am stumped about how to account for that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C355065.5070208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T04:13:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C354032.1090001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 10:04 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHow did Casdoe's husband get there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you mean the old man in Casdoe's cabin who talks about having been \nFechin's friend as a boy, like I said, I can't explain it. But \nWikipedia reports an Irish saint Feichin of the 7th century." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35509D.8000200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T04:14:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C352F46.5090100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 8:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBrunie, Jeff is capable of letting me know if I understood him correctly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creatures." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35580E.2060900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T04:46:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For the record, I don't give a hoot about Rudesind and only a little \nbit about Fechin. Whatever Inire is, is fine with me. But what I don't \nlike is cheap shots. And that is what this post is about for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "say, Rudesind is Inire. And I'm asking 'and now what?'. And I'm not \ngetting an answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I have answered you. I've explained that the question cannot \nbe answered. I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is Inire\" \nwith \"Doras is Severian's grandmother\" and answer the same question. The \nanswer is the same in both instances. You've dodged this challenge \nrepeatedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\nimpossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just \nignored, as\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not ignored. When someone proffers a theory, he feels obliged to \nride it until it breaks down. It's just how it works. And just because \nsomeone posits an explanation that is shown to be problematic does not \nmean there is nothing there. Putting it out there and taking the beating \nover it is part of the game. But sitting on your backside and drawling \n\"I don't see it\" is about as offensive a response as I've seen. And I \nsee it every time someone pieces together an argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Patterns come by the dozens. In books as rich in detail as Wolfe's you \ncan\nget patterns out of anything. It's futile. You think you're clever \nbecause\nyou've found a pattern, when in fact the hard thing is not to find them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This POV is lazy. And it's not even true. Not even close to true. Wolfe \ndoes not say the same thing over and over or reference the same physical \ntrait over and over for no point. You more of his stories and you'll see \nthat's true.\n\nNor is it true that solid patterns are hard not find. Wolfe's problem is \nin the other direction. He doesn't leave nearly ENOUGH clues. His work \noften tends to appear to be randomly lackadaisical until you read it a \nsecond time or talk to someone about it. And then you find out it was a \ndifferent story from the one you thought you were reading.\n\nAnd *no one* who enjoys reading Wolfe thinks reading him verrry \ncarefully and then taking a conclusive leap is futile. Well, it's rare \nanyway. I don't care what anyone says. Pick the most textually rigorous \nperson on this list. If he's been here long that person has proffered \nwild, even bizarre, explanations at times based on the thinnest of \nevidence. You'll do it too, Antonio. Textual rigor is important. Priding \nyourself on it is arrogant and lacking in any self-awareness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some\npurpose within that book. But reader speculation must, because\nwith all the stuff that Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't\nset some standard, then you can go on indefinitely at random." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no objective standard. This standard itself is purely \nsubjective. But that's not the problem with it in practice. The problem \nwith this standard you've laid down is that it is simultaneously \n\"know-nothing\" and presumptive. It's presumptive, in practice, because \nit declares that everything in the story of significance is already \nknown. Which is ridiculous. It was only a few years ago that someone \npretty convincingly argued that the tunnels Severian walks through to \nreach Valeria move through Time. It's know-nothing because it declares \nanything one doesn't know already must not be important since, after \nall, we've got along alright without it until now.\n\nWhen you agree with someone's theory, it seems to have all kinds of \n\"speculative significance\". When you don't or (more often) when the \nexplanation is above your head, it seems pointless.\n\nIt's not as though I've never seen this standard before. It's an easy \ntrump card someone pulls out whenever laying out a detailed rebuttal \nseems too hard, but not saying anything at all seems harder.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11D3936A-A364-40DE-B886-7E10744012FB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T04:55:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34F29D.3080805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allow me to defend myself here.\n\nI am finding puzzle pieces and asking someone to help me solve it. I do deem them to be puzzle pieces, though, before I serve them to this group. Meaning, I don't just look for random patterns and decide to throw the noodle on the wall to see if it sticks.\n\nThe monkey descriptions are clear as day to me, and warrant investigation. I am aware this has been discussed in the past, but I feel like the second part has not been considered.\n\nThe only think I've drawn from this discourse, and my own deduction, is that Inire is watching over Severian throughout his journey. Is he shaping it? Is Severian nothing more than the puppet controlled by Inire? There is certainly text to suggest that (\"When I first came to court I was told, as a great secret, that it was Father Inire who really determined the policy of the Commonwealth. When I had been there two years, a man very highly placed - I can't even tell you his name - said it was the Autarch who ruled, though to those in the House Absolute it might seem that it was Father Inire.\").\n\nAnd if that is the case, doesn't it turn the entire \"hero quest\" on its head? To me, that is reason enough to look for evidence that supports this notion of Inire being a watcher throughout this journey, and the more 'under our nose' he is, the better.\n\nI don't know where that puts me in your silo structure, but I believe that anything a book *does* to a person cannot be quarantined as invalid or inappropriate. I am sure Wolfe appreciates all and any pondering over his canon.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nMaybe I should point out in more detail how the two things you are confusing are quite distinct.\n\n- One is the author having a purpose for including something in the story. The thing is there because it serves some end. That is its narrative advantage.\n\n- The other is the reader having a purpose for making assumptions about what happens in the story, i.e., speculation. Speculation is justified because it enables a novel or in some way extended reading.\n\nIn fact, the reason you've provided yourself for justifying speculation is that it serves to find a narrative advantage to things which otherwise you think don't have any.\n\nNow, I'm not a fan of the idea that everything must provide narrative advantage. In fact I think a decent lengthy book should have detail in it that is there only for its own sake. Maybe it could provide narrative advantage in a parallel story. Maybe the fact that the character forded 3 instead of 2 brooks could be significant in some untold story about that place. Maybe the story can even be written one of these days.\n\nIn short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some purpose within that book. But reader speculation must, because with all the stuff that Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't set some standard, then you can go on indefinitely at random.\n\nWhereas you've done the reverse: you think everything in the stpry must serve some purpose, yet speculation is free to roam." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8E556A92-64FC-49B5-B542-27ECBB7314EA@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:01:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35580E.2060900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 12:46 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nNor is it true that solid patterns are hard not find. Wolfe's problem is in the other direction. He doesn't leave nearly ENOUGH clues. His work often tends to appear to be randomly lackadaisical until you read it a second time or talk to someone about it. And then you find out it was a different story from the one you thought you were reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you've summarized what I've felt about Wolfe for some time. The first reading (if you've read him before) you are on high alert, and analyzing everything. This usually leads to a stiff first reading that sort of weaves together near the end. And this almost ALWAYS elicits a feeling of... \"what the hell did I miss? Because I know it was significant, whatever it was.\"\n\nAt that point, you re-read it, and many of the clues you missed were perfectly placed, fully intentional, and clever to the hilt.\n\nThat is what separates Wolfe from most other mortals for me. Not to laud him overly idyllically, but I don't think many other authors attempt or could achieve if they DID attempt this sort of layered literary approach.\n\nHence the pondering of people who have monkey traits as not just some throwaway piece of scrap that I or someone else may be obsessing over.\n\nIt is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the stone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair. That, to me, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of her skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her effect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3544EA.4050301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There needs be no such principal and we have no need to so call any such\nnonexistent principal.\n\nHere, you see?\n\nYou are mistaken in your beliefs.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There needs to be a principle of, I don't know, conservation of\nexplanation or something. And we need to call each other on it.\n\nFor example, if a mysterious figure gains powers (expert acting,\nsharpshooting, shapeshifting, timetripping) to explain specific textual\nfeatures, that in other contexts begin to overlap and become redundant\n(i.e., a feature can be explained by any of these powers), then we have\na condition of overexplanation. There are more explanations than there\nare problems and they contradict one another. Why would the burglar use\nhis powers of disguise if he could simply go back in time to when the\napartment was empty? And so on. Wolfe's characters often address this\nissue directly.\n\nOverexplanation is a violation of form. Sometimes the most mundane\nexplanations are best, because they require the least effort and never\nlead to redundancy. One asks questions not to challenge but to test.\n\nI'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well, but does this make sense?\n\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure that anyone has said that there's nothing to be found in\nall\nthe various clues about Inire. The question is whether it makes any\nsense\nto assume that every candidate for being Inire-in-disguise is in fact\nInire-in-disguise, and the dialogue has gone much like this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At some point in that conversation, the burden of proof was shifted to\nthe\nskeptic and the argument that X is Inire became non-falsifiable. If\nInire\nis an immortal shapeshifting, time-travelling bilocating liar, it's\nimpossible to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that any given" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "character" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is not Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Excellent! That is exactly the way the argument has gone, both now and\nin\nthe past.\n\nAnt?nio wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To show a pattern is viable in a Wolfe book is like showing\nthere are stars in the sky. \"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\nimpossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just ignored,\nas\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ditto.\n\nThings that get ignored tend to be anything in the text that that\ndoesn't\nfit or contradicts the pattern. It's okay to go on about monkey features\nand\nnoses, but when, say, the old man at Casdoe's says of Fechin \"His face\nwasn't a monkey's face at all. Fechin was handsome--the handsomest\naround.\",\nthat gets waved away. The old man also said that Fechin was \"A tall,\nwild\nboy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, . .\n.\"\n(SWORD, chap. XV) But the old Boatman said of Inire, \"Just a little man\nhe\nis, with a wry neck and bow legs.\" (SHADOW, chap. XXII) \"Tall\" doesn't\nfit\nwith \"little\" and \"bow legs\", but I guess that's where the lying comes\nin.\nOr the shapeshifting.\n\nFechin seems to connect the old man at Casdoe's with Rudesind; that much\nis\nin the text, but that doesn't make any or all of the three men Inire.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49c6386dc1bb4751886b9ff75110a91c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:07:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35509D.8000200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wilson, you know, just because you don't name a forfeit doesn't mean one\nwon't be taken.\n\nThat's not the way it works.\n\nYou've benefitted from associating with me, like it or not.\n\nGet out of David's way, now.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 8:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brunie, Jeff is capable of letting me know if I understood him\ncorrectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creatures.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e981cad48fa7f046d2bdb21af1b1a63.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:10:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n byRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<8E556A92-64FC-49B5-B542-27ECBB7314EA@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find Wolfe to leave the exactly correct number of clues.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 12:46 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor is it true that solid patterns are hard not find. Wolfe's problem is\nin the other direction. He doesn't leave nearly ENOUGH clues. His work\noften tends to appear to be randomly lackadaisical until you read it a\nsecond time or talk to someone about it. And then you find out it was a\ndifferent story from the one you thought you were reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you've summarized what I've felt about Wolfe for some time. The\nfirst reading (if you've read him before) you are on high alert, and\nanalyzing everything. This usually leads to a stiff first reading that\nsort of weaves together near the end. And this almost ALWAYS elicits a\nfeeling of... \"what the hell did I miss? Because I know it was\nsignificant, whatever it was.\"\n\nAt that point, you re-read it, and many of the clues you missed were\nperfectly placed, fully intentional, and clever to the hilt.\n\nThat is what separates Wolfe from most other mortals for me. Not to laud\nhim overly idyllically, but I don't think many other authors attempt or\ncould achieve if they DID attempt this sort of layered literary approach.\n\nHence the pondering of people who have monkey traits as not just some\nthrowaway piece of scrap that I or someone else may be obsessing over.\n\nIt is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair. That, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n byRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35580E.2060900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Dunn's ideas are good.\n\nA breath of fresh air.\n\nWhat amazes me, James, is your attitude.\n\nI would have said I knew what you thought about this stuff.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " For the record, I don't give a hoot about Rudesind and only a little\nbit about Fechin. Whatever Inire is, is fine with me. But what I don't\nlike is cheap shots. And that is what this post is about for me.\n\n > say, Rudesind is Inire. And I'm asking 'and now what?'. And I'm not\ngetting an answer.\n\nActually, I have answered you. I've explained that the question cannot\nbe answered. I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is Inire\"\nwith \"Doras is Severian's grandmother\" and answer the same question. The\nanswer is the same in both instances. You've dodged this challenge\nrepeatedly.\n\n >\"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\n >impossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just\nignored, as\n >in this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\n >pattern....\" is essentially gratis.\n\nIt's not ignored. When someone proffers a theory, he feels obliged to\nride it until it breaks down. It's just how it works. And just because\nsomeone posits an explanation that is shown to be problematic does not\nmean there is nothing there. Putting it out there and taking the beating\nover it is part of the game. But sitting on your backside and drawling\n\"I don't see it\" is about as offensive a response as I've seen. And I\nsee it every time someone pieces together an argument.\n\n >Patterns come by the dozens. In books as rich in detail as Wolfe's you\ncan\n >get patterns out of anything. It's futile. You think you're clever\nbecause\n >you've found a pattern, when in fact the hard thing is not to find them.\n\nThis POV is lazy. And it's not even true. Not even close to true. Wolfe\ndoes not say the same thing over and over or reference the same physical\ntrait over and over for no point. You more of his stories and you'll see\nthat's true.\n\nNor is it true that solid patterns are hard not find. Wolfe's problem is\nin the other direction. He doesn't leave nearly ENOUGH clues. His work\noften tends to appear to be randomly lackadaisical until you read it a\nsecond time or talk to someone about it. And then you find out it was a\ndifferent story from the one you thought you were reading.\n\nAnd *no one* who enjoys reading Wolfe thinks reading him verrry\ncarefully and then taking a conclusive leap is futile. Well, it's rare\nanyway. I don't care what anyone says. Pick the most textually rigorous\nperson on this list. If he's been here long that person has proffered\nwild, even bizarre, explanations at times based on the thinnest of\nevidence. You'll do it too, Antonio. Textual rigor is important. Priding\nyourself on it is arrogant and lacking in any self-awareness.\n\n >In short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some\n >purpose within that book. But reader speculation must, because\n >with all the stuff that Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't\n >set some standard, then you can go on indefinitely at random.\n\nThere is no objective standard. This standard itself is purely\nsubjective. But that's not the problem with it in practice. The problem\nwith this standard you've laid down is that it is simultaneously\n\"know-nothing\" and presumptive. It's presumptive, in practice, because\nit declares that everything in the story of significance is already\nknown. Which is ridiculous. It was only a few years ago that someone\npretty convincingly argued that the tunnels Severian walks through to\nreach Valeria move through Time. It's know-nothing because it declares\nanything one doesn't know already must not be important since, after\nall, we've got along alright without it until now.\n\nWhen you agree with someone's theory, it seems to have all kinds of\n\"speculative significance\". When you don't or (more often) when the\nexplanation is above your head, it seems pointless.\n\nIt's not as though I've never seen this standard before. It's an easy\ntrump card someone pulls out whenever laying out a detailed rebuttal\nseems too hard, but not saying anything at all seems harder.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1eff4cec21595f5ece1f902c478a4498.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n byRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35580E.2060900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I expect Stockhoff to be an unpleasant fool and Wilson to be as he is.\n\nThat they act the way they act does not in any way surprise me.\n\nYou, James, surprise me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " For the record, I don't give a hoot about Rudesind and only a little\nbit about Fechin. Whatever Inire is, is fine with me. But what I don't\nlike is cheap shots. And that is what this post is about for me.\n\n > say, Rudesind is Inire. And I'm asking 'and now what?'. And I'm not\ngetting an answer.\n\nActually, I have answered you. I've explained that the question cannot\nbe answered. I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is Inire\"\nwith \"Doras is Severian's grandmother\" and answer the same question. The\nanswer is the same in both instances. You've dodged this challenge\nrepeatedly.\n\n >\"It couldn't work because...\" is all but\n >impossible - especially when all contrary evidence can be just\nignored, as\n >in this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\n >pattern....\" is essentially gratis.\n\nIt's not ignored. When someone proffers a theory, he feels obliged to\nride it until it breaks down. It's just how it works. And just because\nsomeone posits an explanation that is shown to be problematic does not\nmean there is nothing there. Putting it out there and taking the beating\nover it is part of the game. But sitting on your backside and drawling\n\"I don't see it\" is about as offensive a response as I've seen. And I\nsee it every time someone pieces together an argument.\n\n >Patterns come by the dozens. In books as rich in detail as Wolfe's you\ncan\n >get patterns out of anything. It's futile. You think you're clever\nbecause\n >you've found a pattern, when in fact the hard thing is not to find them.\n\nThis POV is lazy. And it's not even true. Not even close to true. Wolfe\ndoes not say the same thing over and over or reference the same physical\ntrait over and over for no point. You more of his stories and you'll see\nthat's true.\n\nNor is it true that solid patterns are hard not find. Wolfe's problem is\nin the other direction. He doesn't leave nearly ENOUGH clues. His work\noften tends to appear to be randomly lackadaisical until you read it a\nsecond time or talk to someone about it. And then you find out it was a\ndifferent story from the one you thought you were reading.\n\nAnd *no one* who enjoys reading Wolfe thinks reading him verrry\ncarefully and then taking a conclusive leap is futile. Well, it's rare\nanyway. I don't care what anyone says. Pick the most textually rigorous\nperson on this list. If he's been here long that person has proffered\nwild, even bizarre, explanations at times based on the thinnest of\nevidence. You'll do it too, Antonio. Textual rigor is important. Priding\nyourself on it is arrogant and lacking in any self-awareness.\n\n >In short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some\n >purpose within that book. But reader speculation must, because\n >with all the stuff that Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't\n >set some standard, then you can go on indefinitely at random.\n\nThere is no objective standard. This standard itself is purely\nsubjective. But that's not the problem with it in practice. The problem\nwith this standard you've laid down is that it is simultaneously\n\"know-nothing\" and presumptive. It's presumptive, in practice, because\nit declares that everything in the story of significance is already\nknown. Which is ridiculous. It was only a few years ago that someone\npretty convincingly argued that the tunnels Severian walks through to\nreach Valeria move through Time. It's know-nothing because it declares\nanything one doesn't know already must not be important since, after\nall, we've got along alright without it until now.\n\nWhen you agree with someone's theory, it seems to have all kinds of\n\"speculative significance\". When you don't or (more often) when the\nexplanation is above your head, it seems pointless.\n\nIt's not as though I've never seen this standard before. It's an easy\ntrump card someone pulls out whenever laying out a detailed rebuttal\nseems too hard, but not saying anything at all seems harder.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T05:44:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35580E.2060900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 12:46 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nFor the record, I don't give a hoot about Rudesind and only a little bit about Fechin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To change tacts here...\n\nIs it possible Rudesind was intentionally steering Severian away from the Reading Room? Is the Book of Gold in there? What would happen if Severian found it? Any other motive to avoid the direction the armiger laid forth?\n\n\"The old curator blew those directions to the winds with a puff of sour breath. \"What he laid down would only get you to the Reading Room. From there it'd take you a watch to get to Ultan, if ever you did.\"\n\nWe're going on Rudesind's word that the armiger's directions were indeed faulty, no? We are also to trust Rudesind at HIS word, though Severian doesn't know him from the next man.\n\nOr all may simply be as it seems here. I just want to settle the unease I feel with the Rudesind encounter.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<76CD98D3-C43B-4CAE-9FF8-6944482FD94B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T06:26:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C3544EA.4050301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nI want to add that my experience with BotNS is that the whole journey is caught in a time loop of sorts. Not exactly, but what we are witnessing is the journey of Severian, but it is not his first pass through this journey. It is a refined pass, however, and the one that inevitably leads him to success (to becoming the New Sun).\n\nHere are two passages which prove the loop, to me, and suggest that Severian and Inire, cronies by the time of the manuscript's writing, are walkers of the corridors of time, and shaping Severian's (the apprentice and onward) journey from hilt to tip...\n\n. .\n\n\"Rudesind, we already know the answers to the question you think we are going to ask. We know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another such, though perhaps you did not know that. We even know that your master was with us in the jungles of the north, where he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor. We only want to say that if a young man with an errand comes past again while you are on your ladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is our order.\"\n\n. .\n\n\"I am not the first Severian. Those who walk the corridors of Time saw him gain the Phoenix Throne, and thus it was that the Autarch, having been told of me, smiled in the House Azure, and the undine thrust me up when it seemed I must drown. (Yet surely the first Severian did not; something had already begun to reshape my life.)\"\n\n. .\n\n[TWO PARTS]\n\n1. \"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have heard it called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a consciousness of eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither - at least, not for me. It is something akin to a sourceless embarrassment, coupled with the feeling that I must not turn around, because to turn will be to appear a fool, answering the promptings of baseless intuition. Eventually, of course, one does. I turned with the vague impression that someone had followed me through the hole at the base of the dial.\"\n\n2. \"I crossed to the door and tapped on it. The timorous old woman who had served us appeared, and I, stepping into that musty room in which I had warmed myself before, told her to bring Valeria to me.\"\n\n. .\n\nOkay, so the final one seems to be the young Severian sensing Severian the Lame entering that Atrium, right? And he is not the first Severian. And he admits something had begun to reshape his life. And we now know that Inire (Rudesind's master) was with Severian in the jungles, trying to rescue Appian. And Severian gives an order to direct his younger iteration to Ultan, though he doesn't say by which means.\n\nSo... in as far as I can see. Any sightings of Inire along Severian's journey are not mission critical. But they DO reenforce what is revealed at the end. That Inire (and probably Severian shows up) are active participants in the reshaping of the journey of \"Severian Who Succeeds\".\n\nTheir entire mission is to get the damn sun back, and Severian turns himself into a puppet with Inire's time traveling help. That, to me, is the shell of the nut that we are trying to crack.\n\nYay? Nay?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThere needs to be a principle of, I don't know, conservation of explanation or something. And we need to call each other on it.\n\nFor example, if a mysterious figure gains powers (expert acting, sharpshooting, shapeshifting, timetripping) to explain specific textual features, that in other contexts begin to overlap and become redundant (i.e., a feature can be explained by any of these powers), then we have a condition of overexplanation. There are more explanations than there are problems and they contradict one another. Why would the burglar use his powers of disguise if he could simply go back in time to when the apartment was empty? And so on. Wolfe's characters often address this issue directly.\n\nOverexplanation is a violation of form. Sometimes the most mundane explanations are best, because they require the least effort and never lead to redundancy. One asks questions not to challenge but to test.\n\nI'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well, but does this make sense?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<710c8b23286f7fec339124467be5a959.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T06:38:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<76CD98D3-C43B-4CAE-9FF8-6944482FD94B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth, I have only minor and equivocal disagreements with Ryan.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David,\n\nI want to add that my experience with BotNS is that the whole journey is\ncaught in a time loop of sorts. Not exactly, but what we are witnessing is\nthe journey of Severian, but it is not his first pass through this\njourney. It is a refined pass, however, and the one that inevitably leads\nhim to success (to becoming the New Sun).\n\nHere are two passages which prove the loop, to me, and suggest that\nSeverian and Inire, cronies by the time of the manuscript's writing, are\nwalkers of the corridors of time, and shaping Severian's (the apprentice\nand onward) journey from hilt to tip...\n\n. .\n\n\"Rudesind, we already know the answers to the question you think we are\ngoing to ask. We know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and\nthat for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast\ntheir lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The\nCumaean is another such, though perhaps you did not know that. We even\nknow that your master was with us in the jungles of the north, where he\ntried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor. We only want to say\nthat if a young man with an errand comes past again while you are on your\nladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is our order.\"\n\n. .\n\n\"I am not the first Severian. Those who walk the corridors of Time saw him\ngain the Phoenix Throne, and thus it was that the Autarch, having been\ntold of me, smiled in the House Azure, and the undine thrust me up when it\nseemed I must drown. (Yet surely the first Severian did not; something had\nalready begun to reshape my life.)\"\n\n. .\n\n[TWO PARTS]\n\n1. \"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have\nheard it called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a\nconsciousness of eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither -\nat least, not for me. It is something akin to a sourceless embarrassment,\ncoupled with the feeling that I must not turn around, because to turn will\nbe to appear a fool, answering the promptings of baseless intuition.\nEventually, of course, one does. I turned with the vague impression that\nsomeone had followed me through the hole at the base of the dial.\"\n\n2. \"I crossed to the door and tapped on it. The timorous old woman who had\nserved us appeared, and I, stepping into that musty room in which I had\nwarmed myself before, told her to bring Valeria to me.\"\n\n. .\n\nOkay, so the final one seems to be the young Severian sensing Severian the\nLame entering that Atrium, right? And he is not the first Severian. And he\nadmits something had begun to reshape his life. And we now know that Inire\n(Rudesind's master) was with Severian in the jungles, trying to rescue\nAppian. And Severian gives an order to direct his younger iteration to\nUltan, though he doesn't say by which means.\n\nSo... in as far as I can see. Any sightings of Inire along Severian's\njourney are not mission critical. But they DO reenforce what is revealed\nat the end. That Inire (and probably Severian shows up) are active\nparticipants in the reshaping of the journey of \"Severian Who Succeeds\".\n\nTheir entire mission is to get the damn sun back, and Severian turns\nhimself into a puppet with Inire's time traveling help. That, to me, is\nthe shell of the nut that we are trying to crack.\n\nYay? Nay?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 11:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There needs to be a principle of, I don't know, conservation of\nexplanation or something. And we need to call each other on it.\n\nFor example, if a mysterious figure gains powers (expert acting,\nsharpshooting, shapeshifting, timetripping) to explain specific textual\nfeatures, that in other contexts begin to overlap and become redundant\n(i.e., a feature can be explained by any of these powers), then we have\na condition of overexplanation. There are more explanations than there\nare problems and they contradict one another. Why would the burglar use\nhis powers of disguise if he could simply go back in time to when the\napartment was empty? And so on. Wolfe's characters often address this\nissue directly.\n\nOverexplanation is a violation of form. Sometimes the most mundane\nexplanations are best, because they require the least effort and never\nlead to redundancy. One asks questions not to challenge but to test.\n\nI'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well, but does this make sense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35AD4B.2090803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T10:49:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<1eff4cec21595f5ece1f902c478a4498.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Dunn's ideas are good.A breath of fresh air.What amazes me, James, is your attitude. I would have said I knew what you thought about this stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I expect Stockhoff to be an unpleasant fool and Wilson to be as he is. That they act the way they act does not in any way surprise me.You, James, surprise me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "err...thank you? or I'm outraged! Please accept whichever response is \nmost appropriate.\n;-)\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<88a5205f8df4209037fc3605aad3a7e1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T10:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n byRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35AD4B.2090803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I shall and in fact am doing so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Dunn's ideas are good.A breath of fresh air.What amazes me,\nJames, is your attitude. I would have said I knew what you thought about\nthis stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I expect Stockhoff to be an unpleasant fool and Wilson to be as he is.\nThat they act the way they act does not in any way surprise me.You,\nJames, surprise me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "err...thank you? or I'm outraged! Please accept whichever response is\nmost appropriate.\n;-)\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35BCCD.5030006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T11:55:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35580E.2060900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (08-07-2010 05:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the record, I don't give a hoot about Rudesind and only a little bit\n about Fechin. Whatever Inire is, is fine with me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great, then he is a Disney character, friends with Roger Rabbit. Let's work \nout the implications of that (oh, wait, what for? we only need to come up \nwith the guess, not actually show any substance to it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what I don't like is cheap shots. And that is what this post is about\nfor me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that just means you didn't understand it, assuming you're being honest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "say, Rudesind is Inire. And I'm asking 'and now what?'. And I'm not\ngetting an answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I have answered you. I've explained that the question cannot be\nanswered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in the brand of english I studied, 'I'm not getting an answer' in my\nsentence means 'no one has provided that information'. If you said the\ninformation doesn't exist, you still haven't provided it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is Inire\" with \"Doras is\nSeverian's grandmother\" and answer the same question. The answer is the\nsame in both instances. You've dodged this challenge repeatedly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? You've asked it ONCE, I've reported you to the endless discussions on\nthat at the time it was put forward, and I've explained how it isn't a good\nanalogy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"It couldn't work because...\" is all but impossible - especially when\nall contrary evidence can be just\nignored, as\nin this Rudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits\nthat pattern....\" is essentially gratis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not ignored." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it's ignored. 'Ignored' here means 'brushed aside', not 'victim of\noversight'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When someone proffers a theory, he feels obliged to ride it until it\nbreaks down. It's just how it works. And just because someone posits an\nexplanation that is shown to be problematic does not mean there is\nnothing there. Putting it out there and taking the beating over it is\npart of the game.> But sitting on your backside and drawling \"I don't see\n it\" is about as offensive a response as I've seen. And I see it every\ntime someone pieces together an argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'I don't see it' is the only sincere reply you can give to weaseling.\n\nHow may more times must I repeat that I'm not worried about the \n*plausibility*? I'm granting you the premise! I'm taking your guess for \ngood! (Here I just mention that there is little point in not taking it for \ngood because the text is so rich that it allows pretty much anything - you \nthen feel insulted because that amounts to telling you that what you've \nfound there isn't extraordinary) NOW that I've taken your guess for good, \nwhat? DO something with it! That's what I'm asking. By its fruit you shall \nknow it.\n\nThe essence of 'what-if?' is in the 'then'. There's a reason that call \n'what-if?' 'alternate history'. Because if 'if', 'then' something novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Patterns come by the dozens. In books as rich in detail as Wolfe's you\n can get patterns out of anything. It's futile. You think you're\nclever because you've found a pattern, when in fact the hard thing is\nnot to find them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This POV is lazy. And it's not even true. Not even close to true. Wolfe\ndoes not say the same thing over and over or reference the same physical\n trait over and over for no point. You more of his stories and you'll see\n that's true.\n\nNor is it true that solid patterns are hard not find. Wolfe's problem is\n in the other direction. He doesn't leave nearly ENOUGH clues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's precisely why patterns are had not to find.\n\nThe issue may be with 'solid'. You think you got solid material. Well, you\ndon't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His work often tends to appear to be randomly lackadaisical until you\nread it a second time or talk to someone about it. And then you find out\n it was a different story from the one you thought you were reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't tell me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And *no one* who enjoys reading Wolfe thinks reading him verrry carefully\nand then taking a conclusive leap is futile. Well, it's rare anyway. I\ndon't care what anyone says. Pick the most textually rigorous person on\nthis list. If he's been here long that person has proffered wild, even\nbizarre, explanations at times based on the thinnest of evidence. You'll\ndo it too, Antonio. Textual rigor is important. Priding yourself on it is\narrogant and lacking in any self-awareness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've yet to decide whether yall simply have not read what I've written or\nare just being dishonest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In short, I don't think everything in a book should serve some purpose\n within that book. But reader speculation must, because with all the\nstuff that Wolfe left lying there to toy with, if you don't set some\nstandard, then you can go on indefinitely at random." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no objective standard. This standard itself is purely\nsubjective. But that's not the problem with it in practice. The problem\nwith this standard you've laid down is that it is simultaneously\n\"know-nothing\" and presumptive. It's presumptive, in practice, because it\ndeclares that everything in the story of significance is already known.\nWhich is ridiculous. It was only a few years ago that someone pretty\nconvincingly argued that the tunnels Severian walks through to reach\nValeria move through Time. It's know-nothing because it declares anything\none doesn't know already must not be important since, after all, we've\ngot along alright without it until now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now if you can just provide a single argument of mine that can be\ninterpreted in the way you put above, we'll all be happy.\n\nThis isn't even a case of strawmanship. When you build a strawman, you at\nleast start from the other person's ideas. Here you have the nerve to talk\nabout 'this standard [I]'ve laid down' with no relationship at all to\nanything I have said, but rather your idea of what you don't think is a\nsensible position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you agree with someone's theory, it seems to have all kinds of\n\"speculative significance\". When you don't or (more often) when the\nexplanation is above your head, it seems pointless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again your obsession is with theory for the sake of theory. Ur doin it wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not as though I've never seen this standard before. It's an easy\ntrump card someone pulls out whenever laying out a detailed rebuttal\nseems too hard, but not saying anything at all seems harder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't rebutt nothingness.\n\nIn all your drivel, about the only thing you've said that relates to what\nI've said is that patterns are hard to find in Wolfe's books. And it's wrong.\n\nNow if you should go to the trouble of actually addressing what I wrote\ninstead of some preconceived idea of what you would think if you objected to\nidle speculation, I may take the trouble to read what you have to say." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35BEE4.2000607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<11D3936A-A364-40DE-B886-7E10744012FB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 05:55):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only think I've drawn from this discourse, and my own deduction, is\nthat Inire is watching over Severian throughout his journey. Is he\nshaping it? Is Severian nothing more than the puppet controlled by Inire?\nThere is certainly text to suggest that (\"When I first came to court I\nwas told, as a great secret, that it was Father Inire who really\ndetermined the policy of the Commonwealth. When I had been there two\nyears, a man very highly placed - I can't even tell you his name - said\nit was the Autarch who ruled, though to those in the House Absolute it\nmight seem that it was Father Inire.\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I think this view has flaws, but as I've said I'm not out to get them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if that is the case, doesn't it turn the entire \"hero quest\" on its\nhead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Now* you've produced something. So, if Inire guides Severian's whole \njourney (I still don't see why he must be Rudesind for that, but...), what \ndoes that mean for Severian and the 'quest' (if indeed there is a quest)?\nThis is what I want to read about in copious amounts, not just one sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, that is reason enough to look for evidence that supports\nthis notion of Inire being a watcher throughout this journey, and the\nmore 'under our nose' he is, the better.\n\nI don't know where that puts me in your silo structure, but I believe\nthat anything a book *does* to a person cannot be quarantined as invalid\nor inappropriate. I am sure Wolfe appreciates all and any pondering over\nhis canon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you bake this quite elaborate cake and what the people go on endlessly \nabout is whether or not you used some given ingredient, you may appreciate \nit as well inasmuch as that expresses their satisfaction with your work, but \nthat doesn't mean you feel rewarded by your effort." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35BF1C.4010902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:05:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C355065.5070208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup.\n\nI actually had no idea Fechin was mentioned twice until it was brought \nup. It's a stumper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/7/2010 10:04 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How did Casdoe's husband get there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you mean the old man in Casdoe's cabin who talks about having been \nFechin's friend as a boy, like I said, I can't explain it. But \nWikipedia reports an Irish saint Feichin of the 7th century." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35BF36.4090506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:06:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tby\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35509D.8000200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I fear not Hethor's minions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/7/2010 8:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brunie, Jeff is capable of letting me know if I understood him \ncorrectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please do not feed the energy creatures." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35BF54.8000905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:06:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<8E556A92-64FC-49B5-B542-27ECBB7314EA@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair. That, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs whether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C003.5050400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:09:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it possible Rudesind was intentionally steering Severian away from the\nReading Room? Is the Book of Gold in there? What would happen if Severian\nfound it? Any other motive to avoid the direction the armiger laid\nforth?\n\n\"The old curator blew those directions to the winds with a puff of sour\nbreath. \"What he laid down would only get you to the Reading Room. From\nthere it'd take you a watch to get to Ultan, if ever you did.\"\n\nWe're going on Rudesind's word that the armiger's directions were indeed\nfaulty, no? We are also to trust Rudesind at HIS word, though Severian\ndoesn't know him from the next man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Go on. This may lead to something. What may it connect to?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C0EB.9030008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:13:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<76CD98D3-C43B-4CAE-9FF8-6944482FD94B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 07:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their entire mission is to get the damn sun back, and Severian turns\nhimself into a puppet with Inire's time traveling help. That, to me, is\nthe shell of the nut that we are trying to crack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more power and intentions you give to Inire, the more it becomes unclear \nwhy he'd need such convoluted steps to reach his goals." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C0F5.7090001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:13:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35BF54.8000905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was never the approach. The approach was to try to explain the \npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair. \nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs \nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C199.8050900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:16:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35C0EB.9030008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is an example of what I was trying to say with my principle of \nminimal explanation.\n\nBut to respond, I guess the obvious answer is: to hide the plan from \nSeverian, who might take advantage of it, or fail, or just run away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nRyan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 07:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Their entire mission is to get the damn sun back, and Severian turns\nhimself into a puppet with Inire's time traveling help. That, to me, is\nthe shell of the nut that we are trying to crack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The more power and intentions you give to Inire, the more it becomes \nunclear why he'd need such convoluted steps to reach his goals.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C1CC.5080700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:17:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35C0F5.7090001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That was never the approach." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:30:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35C0EB.9030008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not if he needs a human Autarch to enter the White Fountain with the proper belief in himself and the things he has done.\n\nIf I read Severian's memoir as though he is naive to Inire's \"interferences\", it does two things at once: 1) It turns Severian into a proper puppet, pulled along by Inire and future Severian from the first page; and 2) it explains why there is a lack of clarity and overt context when a possible \"interfering moment\" occurs or is observed.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThe more power and intentions you give to Inire, the more it becomes unclear why he'd need such convoluted steps to reach his goals." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C501.6040502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:30:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35BCCD.5030006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn said:\nI've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is Inire\" with \"Doras is\nSeverian's grandmother\" and answer the same question. The answer is the\nsame in both instances. You've dodged this challenge repeatedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/8/2010 6:55 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n? You've asked it ONCE, I've reported you to the endless discussions on\nthat at the time it was put forward, and I've explained how it isn't a \ngood\nanalogy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "???\nHere are the following threads you've responded to on this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me:\nWhat's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI'm not talking about narrative advantage. I'm talking about \nspeculative advantage. And as a side note I'm against the idea of \nnarrative advantage. I don't see that real life employs it, why should \nfiction? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me again:\nOkay. What's the speculative advantage to Dorcas being\nSeverian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThat has been discussed to death. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Additionally, I've continued to pose the question on this thread. You \ndidn't take the opportunity to explain how this bit of information is \ndifferent from what Ryan has been toying with. But by my count, this is \nthe third time you have directly dodged providing a straightforward \nanswer to this question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me:\nActually, I have answered you. I've explained that the question \ncannot be\nanswered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/8/2010 6:55 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWell, in the brand of english I studied, 'I'm not getting an answer' \nin my\nsentence means 'no one has provided that information'. If you said the\ninformation doesn't exist, you still haven't provided it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what kind you studied but in the conventional kind I assure \nyou that these statements are not equivalent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"It couldn't work because...\" is all but impossible - especially when\nall contrary evidence can be just ignored, as in this Rudesind/Inire \ncase - and \"Here's something else that fits that pattern....\" is \nessentially gratis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not ignored." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course it's ignored. 'Ignored' here means 'brushed aside', not \n'victim of\noversight'. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps you should provide a glossary.\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0A606B66-0274-4778-87EB-B88497FE94DD@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:34:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35C1CC.5080700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wasn't my approach. Mine is simpler, and more benign...\n\nI was hoping to glean some insight from this knowledgable group as to my suspicion about a potentially overlooked passage, in an attempt to categorize that insight and use it (or not) to found/confound/expound upon a theory.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 8:17 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That was never the approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35CC8D.5000101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T13:03:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<76CD98D3-C43B-4CAE-9FF8-6944482FD94B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Inire's actual role is murky, but it seems likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nDavid,\n\nI want to add that my experience with BotNS is that the whole journey is caught in a time loop of sorts. Not exactly, but what we are witnessing is the journey of Severian, but it is not his first pass through this journey. It is a refined pass, however, and the one that inevitably leads him to success (to becoming the New Sun).\n\nHere are two passages which prove the loop, to me, and suggest that Severian and Inire, cronies by the time of the manuscript's writing, are walkers of the corridors of time, and shaping Severian's (the apprentice and onward) journey from hilt to tip...\n\n. .\n\n\"Rudesind, we already know the answers to the question you think we are going to ask. We know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another such, though perhaps you did not know that. We even know that your master was with us in the jungles of the north, where he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor. We only want to say that if a young man with an errand comes past again while you are on your ladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is our order.\"\n\n. .\n\n\"I am not the first Severian. Those who walk the corridors of Time saw him gain the Phoenix Throne, and thus it was that the Autarch, having been told of me, smiled in the House Azure, and the undine thrust me up when it seemed I must drown. (Yet surely the first Severian did not; something had already begun to reshape my life.)\"\n\n. .\n\n[TWO PARTS]\n\n1. \"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have heard it called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a consciousness of eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither - at least, not for me. It is something akin to a sourceless embarrassment, coupled with the feeling that I must not turn around, because to turn will be to appear a fool, answering the promptings of baseless intuition. Eventually, of course, one does. I turned with the vague impression that someone had followed me through the hole at the base of the dial.\"\n\n2. \"I crossed to the door and tapped on it. The timorous old woman who had served us appeared, and I, stepping into that musty room in which I had warmed myself before, told her to bring Valeria to me.\"\n\n. .\n\nOkay, so the final one seems to be the young Severian sensing Severian the Lame entering that Atrium, right? And he is not the first Severian. And he admits something had begun to reshape his life. And we now know that Inire (Rudesind's master) was with Severian in the jungles, trying to rescue Appian. And Severian gives an order to direct his younger iteration to Ultan, though he doesn't say by which means.\n\nSo... in as far as I can see. Any sightings of Inire along Severian's journey are not mission critical. But they DO reenforce what is revealed at the end. That Inire (and probably Severian shows up) are active participants in the reshaping of the journey of \"Severian Who Succeeds\".\n\nTheir entire mission is to get the damn sun back, and Severian turns himself into a puppet with Inire's time traveling help. That, to me, is the shell of the nut that we are trying to crack.\n\nYay? Nay?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 11:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There needs to be a principle of, I don't know, conservation of explanation or something. And we need to call each other on it.\n\nFor example, if a mysterious figure gains powers (expert acting, sharpshooting, shapeshifting, timetripping) to explain specific textual features, that in other contexts begin to overlap and become redundant (i.e., a feature can be explained by any of these powers), then we have a condition of overexplanation. There are more explanations than there are problems and they contradict one another. Why would the burglar use his powers of disguise if he could simply go back in time to when the apartment was empty? And so on. Wolfe's characters often address this issue directly.\n\nOverexplanation is a violation of form. Sometimes the most mundane explanations are best, because they require the least effort and never lead to redundancy. One asks questions not to challenge but to test.\n\nI'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well, but does this make sense?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35D092.6010401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T13:20:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35C1CC.5080700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, but I don't think that was Ryan's approach either. I just like to be \ntotally sure what people are talking about.\n\nAnyway, I agree with you generally, and yet I also agree with James, who \nis able to put theories out there and let them suffer abuse, and is also \nable to consider rival theories.\n\nIt would be nice to elucidate principles for general application, so you \ndon't have to go on explaining how NOT to generate and test theories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That was never the approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the \nnature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35D0D9.8020401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T13:21:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that Severian's motives need to be pure for the test on \nYesod---one might say naive. And yet ... Severian pretends naivete all \nthe time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nNot if he needs a human Autarch to enter the White Fountain with the proper belief in himself and the things he has done.\n\nIf I read Severian's memoir as though he is naive to Inire's \"interferences\", it does two things at once: 1) It turns Severian into a proper puppet, pulled along by Inire and future Severian from the first page; and 2) it explains why there is a lack of clarity and overt context when a possible \"interfering moment\" occurs or is observed.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The more power and intentions you give to Inire, the more it becomes unclear why he'd need such convoluted steps to reach his goals.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35D15E.5010108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T13:23:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<0A606B66-0274-4778-87EB-B88497FE94DD@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan---Try getting text files of the books and keep searching them for \nclues. More textual evidence is always welcome!\n\nSee you all after the weekend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nIt wasn't my approach. Mine is simpler, and more benign...\n\nI was hoping to glean some insight from this knowledgable group as to my suspicion about a potentially overlooked passage, in an attempt to categorize that insight and use it (or not) to found/confound/expound upon a theory.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 8:17 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That was never the approach.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the nature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus her\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<996416be4941fae852a097de7e8c2098.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T14:44:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35CC8D.5000101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I'm getting a little uncomfortable.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Inire's actual role is murky, but it seems likely.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David,\n\nI want to add that my experience with BotNS is that the whole journey is\ncaught in a time loop of sorts. Not exactly, but what we are witnessing\nis the journey of Severian, but it is not his first pass through this\njourney. It is a refined pass, however, and the one that inevitably\nleads him to success (to becoming the New Sun).\n\nHere are two passages which prove the loop, to me, and suggest that\nSeverian and Inire, cronies by the time of the manuscript's writing, are\nwalkers of the corridors of time, and shaping Severian's (the apprentice\nand onward) journey from hilt to tip...\n\n. .\n\n\"Rudesind, we already know the answers to the question you think we are\ngoing to ask. We know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and\nthat for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast\ntheir lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\nThe Cumaean is another such, though perhaps you did not know that. We\neven know that your master was with us in the jungles of the north,\nwhere he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor. We only\nwant to say that if a young man with an errand comes past again while\nyou are on your ladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is our\norder.\"\n\n. .\n\n\"I am not the first Severian. Those who walk the corridors of Time saw\nhim gain the Phoenix Throne, and thus it was that the Autarch, having\nbeen told of me, smiled in the House Azure, and the undine thrust me up\nwhen it seemed I must drown. (Yet surely the first Severian did not;\nsomething had already begun to reshape my life.)\"\n\n. .\n\n[TWO PARTS]\n\n1. \"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have\nheard it called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a\nconsciousness of eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither\n- at least, not for me. It is something akin to a sourceless\nembarrassment, coupled with the feeling that I must not turn around,\nbecause to turn will be to appear a fool, answering the promptings of\nbaseless intuition. Eventually, of course, one does. I turned with the\nvague impression that someone had followed me through the hole at the\nbase of the dial.\"\n\n2. \"I crossed to the door and tapped on it. The timorous old woman who\nhad served us appeared, and I, stepping into that musty room in which I\nhad warmed myself before, told her to bring Valeria to me.\"\n\n. .\n\nOkay, so the final one seems to be the young Severian sensing Severian\nthe Lame entering that Atrium, right? And he is not the first Severian.\nAnd he admits something had begun to reshape his life. And we now know\nthat Inire (Rudesind's master) was with Severian in the jungles, trying\nto rescue Appian. And Severian gives an order to direct his younger\niteration to Ultan, though he doesn't say by which means.\n\nSo... in as far as I can see. Any sightings of Inire along Severian's\njourney are not mission critical. But they DO reenforce what is revealed\nat the end. That Inire (and probably Severian shows up) are active\nparticipants in the reshaping of the journey of \"Severian Who Succeeds\".\n\nTheir entire mission is to get the damn sun back, and Severian turns\nhimself into a puppet with Inire's time traveling help. That, to me, is\nthe shell of the nut that we are trying to crack.\n\nYay? Nay?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 7, 2010, at 11:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There needs to be a principle of, I don't know, conservation of\nexplanation or something. And we need to call each other on it.\n\nFor example, if a mysterious figure gains powers (expert acting,\nsharpshooting, shapeshifting, timetripping) to explain specific textual\nfeatures, that in other contexts begin to overlap and become redundant\n(i.e., a feature can be explained by any of these powers), then we have\na condition of overexplanation. There are more explanations than there\nare problems and they contradict one another. Why would the burglar use\nhis powers of disguise if he could simply go back in time to when the\napartment was empty? And so on. Wolfe's characters often address this\nissue directly.\n\nOverexplanation is a violation of form. Sometimes the most mundane\nexplanations are best, because they require the least effort and never\nlead to redundancy. One asks questions not to challenge but to test.\n\nI'm afraid I'm not expressing myself well, but does this make sense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2deb6a43eaf13aee3a70d90c35608db7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T14:46:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35D092.6010401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only thing that is certain about David is that he will never be caught\ndead agreeing with me.\n\nHe may be perverse enough to agree once or twice starting now that I've\nmentioned it.\n\nI don't know.\n\nI don't think so.\n\nI could be wrong I suppose.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but I don't think that was Ryan's approach either. I just like to be\ntotally sure what people are talking about.\n\nAnyway, I agree with you generally, and yet I also agree with James, who\nis able to put theories out there and let them suffer abuse, and is also\nable to consider rival theories.\n\nIt would be nice to elucidate principles for general application, so you\ndon't have to go on explaining how NOT to generate and test theories.\n\nAnt??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That was never the approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the\nnature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus\nher\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<604D26F4-1B37-45FD-B6D6-A1BB8C365FE2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T14:51:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<2deb6a43eaf13aee3a70d90c35608db7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust, or worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:46 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe only thing that is certain about David is that he will never be caught\ndead agreeing with me.\n\nHe may be perverse enough to agree once or twice starting now that I've\nmentioned it.\n\nI don't know.\n\nI don't think so.\n\nI could be wrong I suppose.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, but I don't think that was Ryan's approach either. I just like to be\ntotally sure what people are talking about.\n\nAnyway, I agree with you generally, and yet I also agree with James, who\nis able to put theories out there and let them suffer abuse, and is also\nable to consider rival theories.\n\nIt would be nice to elucidate principles for general application, so you\ndon't have to go on explaining how NOT to generate and test theories.\n\nAnt??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That was never the approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit the\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the\nnature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus\nher\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35EA15.40001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:09:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<604D26F4-1B37-45FD-B6D6-A1BB8C365FE2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWhat happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust, or worse?\n\n...ryan\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be \nsufficient.\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:11:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35EA15.40001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust, or worse?\n\n...ryan\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be sufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<58afcfbed9693b7699403b2840dc0644.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:13:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<604D26F4-1B37-45FD-B6D6-A1BB8C365FE2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what would happen!\n\nSay, and apropos of nothing, has it occurred to anyone besides David who\nhas read McCarthy's Blood Meridian that the Judge is could very well be a\nlarval form of Baldanders?\n\nNote that this would require McCarthy to have read Gene Wolfe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust, or\nworse?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 10:46 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only thing that is certain about David is that he will never be\ncaught\ndead agreeing with me.\n\nHe may be perverse enough to agree once or twice starting now that I've\nmentioned it.\n\nI don't know.\n\nI don't think so.\n\nI could be wrong I suppose.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, but I don't think that was Ryan's approach either. I just like to\nbe\ntotally sure what people are talking about.\n\nAnyway, I agree with you generally, and yet I also agree with James,\nwho\nis able to put theories out there and let them suffer abuse, and is\nalso\nable to consider rival theories.\n\nIt would be nice to elucidate principles for general application, so\nyou\ndon't have to go on explaining how NOT to generate and test theories.\n\nAnt??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (08-07-2010 13:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That was never the approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I didn't say it was your David's approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The approach was to try to explain the\npassage in a way that added significance, that justified itself.\n\nAnt??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 06:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It is the same with my assertion that he told us Agia's skull hit\nthe\nstone with the sound of a hammer, despite her full head of hair.\nThat, to\nme, was not just colorful description. It was a clue about the\nnature of\nher skull, and thus HER, and thus her affect on Severian, and thus\nher\neffect on his journey, and the whole book for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "And that's why I think your reducing it to determining at all costs\nwhether\nshe is a robot or not is not the correct approach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1b17394196d6d962c93ee668a9f3292c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:14:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35EA15.40001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Death by burning is something that worries you?\n\nJames, James, James.\n\nHow did you go so far and so badly wrong?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7e18488123ccdc29ee7431400c823f62.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't really want to know.\n\nWhat part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15B94AFA-ECA6-4CDD-8062-1B9E606891B9@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:22:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<7e18488123ccdc29ee7431400c823f62.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean besides siamese plantar warts? I think I have a good guess.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 11:15 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYou don't really want to know.\n\nWhat part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:23:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<15B94AFA-ECA6-4CDD-8062-1B9E606891B9@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you probably do have a good guess.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean besides siamese plantar warts? I think I have a good guess.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:15 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You don't really want to know.\n\nWhat part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously\ncombust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D86ACDC-DEAF-48C2-9623-AD41F1BDBFBB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T15:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I probably do.\n\nAnd it still doesn't sound right to me.\n\nI'd rather be run over by a wheeled cart and trampled to death.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2010, at 11:23 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI think you probably do have a good guess.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean besides siamese plantar warts? I think I have a good guess.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:15 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You don't really want to know.\n\nWhat part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously\ncombust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T16:00:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<6D86ACDC-DEAF-48C2-9623-AD41F1BDBFBB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You certainly would prefer for this to happen.\n\nIt is over much faster, and while whether it is objectively more or less\nunpleasant is certainly arguable, just having less time to think about\nthings and (paradoxically) more pain and so less clarity of thought makes\nit less unpleasant subjectively.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I probably do.\n\nAnd it still doesn't sound right to me.\n\nI'd rather be run over by a wheeled cart and trampled to death.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:23 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you probably do have a good guess.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You mean besides siamese plantar warts? I think I have a good guess.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:15 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You don't really want to know.\n\nWhat part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously\ncombust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T16:09:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<6D86ACDC-DEAF-48C2-9623-AD41F1BDBFBB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one could call it right.\n\nIt's a good thing I was sick to my stomach before we started talking about\nthis.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I probably do.\n\nAnd it still doesn't sound right to me.\n\nI'd rather be run over by a wheeled cart and trampled to death.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:23 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you probably do have a good guess.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You mean besides siamese plantar warts? I think I have a good guess.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:15 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You don't really want to know.\n\nWhat part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 7/8/2010 9:51 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously\ncombust,\nor worse?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "What would be worse? The threat of spontaneous combustion should be\nsufficient.\n\nu+169b\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35F909.8080202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T16:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<7e18488123ccdc29ee7431400c823f62.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The word \"avacado\" derives directly from the Aztec word for testicle and \nthe fruit. Perhaps there are no avacados in the cooling Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don't really want to know.What part of a man's anatomy resembles two apricots in a little bag?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The two apricots? That never sounded right to me.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T19:11:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth)The mystery of the image of an astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<58afcfbed9693b7699403b2840dc0644.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:13:25 -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'm not sure what would happen!\n\nSay, and apropos of nothing, has it occurred to anyone besides David who\nhas read McCarthy's Blood Meridian that the Judge is could very well be a\nlarval form of Baldanders?\n\nNote that this would require McCarthy to have read Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes indeed Judge Holden is reminiscent of Baldanders.\n\nBut the creepier thing is that the Judge, well, he's not really a fictional\ncharacter. Or if he is, he's Chamberlain's fictional character. The\nheight, the albinism, the baldness, and the terrifying and lethal appetites\ntowards children are all there in Chamberlain.\n\nThe Wikipedia article is a decent summary:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Holden\n\nNow, I would personally be surprised if Wolfe had not read Chamberlain.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<707e87f2e5ddfa1f3e359a9549c4fb05.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T20:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I got Chamberlain's memoirs next to Blood Meridian on the shelf here.\n\nI've also met guys like Judge Holden.\n\nNot physically like him.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:13:25 -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what would happen!\n\nSay, and apropos of nothing, has it occurred to anyone besides David who\nhas read McCarthy's Blood Meridian that the Judge is could very well be\na\nlarval form of Baldanders?\n\nNote that this would require McCarthy to have read Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes indeed Judge Holden is reminiscent of Baldanders.\n\nBut the creepier thing is that the Judge, well, he's not really a\nfictional\ncharacter. Or if he is, he's Chamberlain's fictional character. The\nheight, the albinism, the baldness, and the terrifying and lethal\nappetites\ntowards children are all there in Chamberlain.\n\nThe Wikipedia article is a decent summary:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Holden\n\nNow, I would personally be surprised if Wolfe had not read Chamberlain.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2aacbeb9c2e6573f0a1d94897f59491e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T23:50:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n astronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes indeed Judge Holden is reminiscent of Baldanders.\n\nBut the creepier thing is that the Judge, well, he's not really a\nfictional\ncharacter. Or if he is, he's Chamberlain's fictional character. The\nheight, the albinism, the baldness, and the terrifying and lethal\nappetites\ntowards children are all there in Chamberlain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Albinism and baldness? Doesn't Baldanders have grey hair?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C369449.5000102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T03:15:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<2aacbeb9c2e6573f0a1d94897f59491e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 07/08/2010 06:50 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWell, yes indeed Judge Holden is reminiscent of Baldanders.\n\nBut the creepier thing is that the Judge, well, he's not really a\nfictional\ncharacter. Or if he is, he's Chamberlain's fictional character. The\nheight, the albinism, the baldness, and the terrifying and lethal\nappetites\ntowards children are all there in Chamberlain.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Albinism and baldness? Doesn't Baldanders have grey hair?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, crossed wires:\n\nThose are among the characteristics of Judge Holden in _Blood Meridian_ \nwhich are not invented by McCarthy but narrated or invented by Chamberlain.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C370043.2020408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T10:56:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C35C501.6040502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (08-07-2010 13:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn said: I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is\nInire\" with \"Doras is Severian's grandmother\" and answer the same\nquestion. The answer is the same in both instances. You've dodged\nthis challenge repeatedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/8/2010 6:55 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: ? You've asked it\nONCE, I've reported you to the endless discussions on that at the time\nit was put forward, and I've explained how it isn't a good analogy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "??? Here are the following threads you've responded to on this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Me: What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is 'I've explained how it isn't a good analogy'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Me again: Okay. What's the speculative advantage to Dorcas being\nSeverian's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: That has been\ndiscussed to death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is 'I've reported you to the endless discussions on that at the time it\nwas put forward'. (This is the ONCE, since your previous question was about \n'narrative advantage'.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, I've continued to pose the question on this thread. You\ndidn't take the opportunity to explain how this bit of information is\ndifferent from what Ryan has been toying with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One key difference is that Dorcas being Severian's grandmother tells us\nsomething about a character we knew nothing about (Dorcas as Severian's\ngrandmother) and Severian's family tree, i.e. the level of data increases.\nWhereas Rudesind being Inire actually decreases the amount of data by\ndropping one character.\nAnd again, the identity of Dorcas is all but spelled out. When discussing \nwhether or not she was Severian's grandmother, it's more of a debate between \n'she obviously is' and 'it's so obvious maybe it's wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But by my count, this is the third time you have directly dodged\nproviding a straightforward answer to this question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I simply don't understand how anything I can say will add to what is in the\narchives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Me: Actually, I have answered you. I've explained that the question\ncannot be answered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/8/2010 6:55 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: Well, in the brand of\nenglish I studied, 'I'm not getting an answer' in my sentence means 'no\none has provided that information'. If you said the information doesn't\nexist, you still haven't provided it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know what kind you studied but in the conventional kind I assure\n you that these statements are not equivalent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course the statements are not generally equivalent. But here they are. \n'Nobody knows', 'nobody can know' aren't answers, they're justifications for \nnot answering. They're short for 'I can't answer that because...'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"It couldn't work because...\" is all but impossible - especially\nwhen all contrary evidence can be just ignored, as in this\nRudesind/Inire case - and \"Here's something else that fits that\npattern....\" is essentially gratis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's not ignored." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course it's ignored. 'Ignored' here means 'brushed aside', not\n'victim of oversight'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps you should provide a glossary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't go out of my way to write for people who don't read for context.\nThat you can call laziness." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37010E.2020804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T10:59:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronaut\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<604D26F4-1B37-45FD-B6D6-A1BB8C365FE2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll be taken to a cave in Mercury.\n\nRyan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 15:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What happens if I agree with both of you? Will I spontaneously combust, or worse?\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 10:46 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only thing that is certain about David is that he will never be caught\ndead agreeing with me.\n\nHe may be perverse enough to agree once or twice starting now that I've\nmentioned it.\n\nI don't know.\n\nI don't think so.\n\nI could be wrong I suppose.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, but I don't think that was Ryan's approach either. I just like to be\ntotally sure what people are talking about.\n\nAnyway, I agree with you generally, and yet I also agree with James, who\nis able to put theories out there and let them suffer abuse, and is also\nable to consider rival theories." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C373476.2060501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:38:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C370043.2020408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn said: I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is\nInire\" with \"Doras is Severian's grandmother\" and answer the same\nquestion. The answer is the same in both instances. You've dodged\nthis challenge repeatedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/8/2010 6:55 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: ? You've asked it\nONCE, I've reported you to the endless discussions on that at the time\nit was put forward, and I've explained how it isn't a good analogy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (08-07-2010 13:30):\n??? Here are the following threads you've responded to on this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Me: What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 5:56 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThis is 'I've explained how it isn't a good analogy'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I'm pretty sure you haven't. Cite the email where you did. \nAnd it won't count unless you use the words \"Dorcas\" and \"grandmother\". \nIf you have, I can't understand why you haven't cited it. Perhaps your \nanswers are in code.\n\nUnless you can properly cite your explanation, you've dodged the \nchallenge a FOURTH time.\n\nIncidentally, by your specialized English, explaining \"how it isn't a \ngood analogy\" isn't an \"answer\". But since I'm pretty sure you haven't \ndone this in relation to \"How does Dorcas being Severian's grandmother \nprovides any 'speculative advantage'? \", that fact is irrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nI remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more\ntextual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's probably the only 'puzzle' in the book that everyone gets. The \nonly way\nit could be more transparent would be if instead of Cas the boatman would\nhave called her Dorcas. It's not like the boatman calls her Fifi. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This \"transparent\" puzzle was only understood some 20 years after the \nbook was published. I'm sure you would have been on the list explaining \nit a week after the SotT was published if you had had the opportunity.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C373D36.2060502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T15:16:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote (08-07-2010 13:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not if he needs a human Autarch to enter the White Fountain with the\nproper belief in himself and the things he has done.\n\nIf I read Severian's memoir as though he is naive to Inire's\n\"interferences\", it does two things at once: 1) It turns Severian into a\nproper puppet, pulled along by Inire and future Severian from the first\npage; and 2) it explains why there is a lack of clarity and overt context\nwhen a possible \"interfering moment\" occurs or is observed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But are you saying that Inire interferes in Severian's life or that he \nshapes his personality? Those are different claims, I think. What are the \nconcrete turns in Severian's life that you think are dependent on Inire's \naction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n\nOn Jul 8, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The more power and intentions you give to Inire, the more it becomes\nunclear why he'd need such convoluted steps to reach his goals." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3780B8.9070307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:04:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n\tbyRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C373476.2060501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 15:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "James Wynn said: I've made a request of you: Replaced \"Rudesind is\nInire\" with \"Doras is Severian's grandmother\" and answer the same\nquestion. The answer is the same in both instances. You've dodged\nthis challenge repeatedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/8/2010 6:55 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: ? You've asked it\nONCE, I've reported you to the endless discussions on that at the time\nit was put forward, and I've explained how it isn't a good analogy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (08-07-2010 13:30):\n??? Here are the following threads you've responded to on this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Me: What's the narrative advantage of Dorcas being Severian's\ngrandmother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 5:56 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThis is 'I've explained how it isn't a good analogy'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I'm pretty sure you haven't. Cite the email where you did. And\nit won't count unless you use the words \"Dorcas\" and \"grandmother\". If\nyou have, I can't understand why you haven't cited it. Perhaps your\nanswers are in code." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can't you even understand quotes now?\n\nBreathe a little, read again, then come back." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless you can properly cite your explanation, you've dodged the\nchallenge a FOURTH time.\n\nIncidentally, by your specialized English, explaining \"how it isn't a\ngood analogy\" isn't an \"answer\". But since I'm pretty sure you haven't\ndone this in relation to \"How does Dorcas being Severian's grandmother\nprovides any 'speculative advantage'? \", that fact is irrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I said:\nI remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more\ntextual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's probably the only 'puzzle' in the book that everyone gets. The\nonly way\nit could be more transparent would be if instead of Cas the boatman would\nhave called her Dorcas. It's not like the boatman calls her Fifi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This \"transparent\" puzzle was only understood some 20 years after the\nbook was published." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this an intentional lie or a sign that you're just too uninformed and \nfull of yourself to be worth talking to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure you would have been on the list explaining\nit a week after the SotT was published if you had had the opportunity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're apparently sure of many things that are wrong." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4043B4.5030906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T11:34:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 19:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nJohn Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 19:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But we're supposed to understand that he's a hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why not some other kind of being?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm eager to consider any kind of being that there is textual evidence\nfor. He himself refers to his own kind in his letter, though, doesn't\nhe? So unless he's lying, or there's some more direct set of\ninformation to rely on, what kind of being other than humans has\nSeverian encountered?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I finally got around to revisiting the letter.\n\nFirst thing of, he refers to himself as 'Inire'. That suggests against \nmangling of the name, at least including word boundaries.\n\nSecond, he twice mentions his 'cousins'. Not his brothers nor his makers. I \nsuspect he's not a hierodule. Something related to them, but not one. Not \nthat it matters terribly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C404E17.8040803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T12:18:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C4043B4.5030906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, if he has accepted a name given him, he has had centuries to \nlearn how to spell it. But certainly there is no overt suggestion that \nhe does not identify as Father Inire.\n\n\"Cousins\" is ambiguous. I took it to mean beings who would be his \nbrothers except he has distanced himself from them by going native on \nUrth. But it could mean anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 19:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2010/7/7 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nJohn Watkins wrote (07-07-2010 19:00):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But we're supposed to understand that he's a hierodule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why not some other kind of being?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm eager to consider any kind of being that there is textual evidence\nfor. He himself refers to his own kind in his letter, though, doesn't\nhe? So unless he's lying, or there's some more direct set of\ninformation to rely on, what kind of being other than humans has\nSeverian encountered?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I finally got around to revisiting the letter.\n\nFirst thing of, he refers to himself as 'Inire'. That suggests against \nmangling of the name, at least including word boundaries.\n\nSecond, he twice mentions his 'cousins'. Not his brothers nor his \nmakers. I suspect he's not a hierodule. Something related to them, but \nnot one. Not that it matters terribly.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4058DF.9010504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T13:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C404E17.8040803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of my favorite passages in Severian's narration involve commentary \non literary style. In Shadow, he compares writing to execution of the \ncondemned.\n\nWhat do you all make of the following mention of Master Ultan's Library?\n\nSimilarly *you, who will some day delve in Master Ultan's library,* will \nrequire of me no long delays; personages who are permitted to speak only \nbriefly yet do it well; certain dramatic pauses which shall signal to \nyou that something of import is about to occur; excitement; and a sating \nquantity of blood." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C405BB9.4090500@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T13:16:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C4058DF.9010504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/16/2010 08:04 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome of my favorite passages in Severian's narration involve \ncommentary on literary style. In Shadow, he compares writing to \nexecution of the condemned.\n\nWhat do you all make of the following mention of Master Ultan's Library?\n\nSimilarly *you, who will some day delve in Master Ultan's library,* \nwill require of me no long delays; personages who are permitted to \nspeak only briefly yet do it well; certain dramatic pauses which shall \nsignal to you that something of import is about to occur; excitement; \nand a sating quantity of blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed Severian was just assuming his book would end up on the \nLibrary's shelves, and that is where the reader would most likely \nencounter it.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T14:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C404E17.8040803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A.P.M.- Second, he twice mentions his 'cousins'. Not his brothers nor his makers. I \nsuspect he's not a hierodule. Something related to them, but not one. Not \nthat it matters terribly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. If Inire was described as really tall and beautiful there might be an obvious\ncase for him being a hierodule. But he is seems significantly different than B, F \nand O. Severian just doesn't seem to be sharp enough to be able to identify the distinction\nbetween various different classes of cacogens/aliens/angels- whatever they are. And B, F \nand O are not inclined to educate or correct him on this.\n \nI think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and consequently short-\nlived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and consquently an obedient \nservant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it to be one, though \nAndre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he undercut much of the \ncredibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO. \n \nAs is obvious, I find an exploration of pagan gods and hierarchy of angels, fallen\nor not, to be more heuristic than Borski's simple Moses analogy for Inire. How could he so \nthoroughly ignore Eschatology and Genesis? \n \nSo, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski casts her as sort of a \nMother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire hierodule character. \nBut she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have thoughts on her?\n \nPerhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. I don't. I think he\nis one of the machines that humanity built which then created the hierogrammates. The phrase\n\"deus ex machina\" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've always liked how Ossipago's\nrole in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of that phrase.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<957647.46124.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T14:52:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C405BB9.4090500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. In other words, \"you, the reader, who will one day find this book on a shelf and read it.\" But underwhelming. Why \"delve into Ultan's library\" when all you need to do is ask for a copy of the Autarch's latest picaresue novel?\n\nAre we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in the Library and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long time (3) that it will be read at all, in HIS future? That he knows nothing of the Flood to come? Is that future revealed to him only during UotNS? \n\nBummer. No one will read his book, since it will survive in neither past nor future, unless the Library itself travels through time, or its holdings do.\n\nWho goes into the stacks? Who reads Ultan's books? Anyone other than librarians and seekers after the Book of Gold?\n\nDoes this really add up?\n\n--- On Fri, 7/16/10, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, July 16, 2010, 9:16 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/16/2010 08:04 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome of my favorite passages in Severian's narration involve commentary on literary style. In Shadow, he compares writing to execution of the condemned.\n\nWhat do you all make of the following mention of Master Ultan's Library?\n\nSimilarly *you, who will some day delve in Master Ultan's library,* will require of me no long delays; personages who are permitted to speak only briefly yet do it well; certain dramatic pauses which shall signal to you that something of import is about to occur; excitement; and a sating quantity of blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed Severian was just assuming his book would end up on the Library's shelves, and that is where the reader would most likely encounter it.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C407B51.4080106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T15:31:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<957647.46124.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 9:52 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nAre we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in the \nLibrary and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long time (3) \nthat it will be read at all, in HIS future?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Master Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as well. \nYour local library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library. Same with your \nlocal bookstore and the bookshelves in your home.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T15:35:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C407B51.4080106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:31 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nMaster Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as well. Your\nlocal library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library. Same with your local\nbookstore and the bookshelves in your home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...but only through L-Space.\n\nOook." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<308147.26233.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T15:45:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C407B51.4080106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, in what sense do you mean that? \n\nActual? Symbolical? Sarcastical? Fantastical?\n\n--- On Fri, 7/16/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, July 16, 2010, 11:31 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 9:52 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nAre we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in the Library and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long time (3) that it will be read at all, in HIS future?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Master Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as well. Your local library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library. Same with your local bookstore and the bookshelves in your home.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C407EC1.7090204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T15:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C4043B4.5030906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 6:34 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFirst thing of, he refers to himself as 'Inire'. That suggests against \nmangling of the name, at least including word boundaries." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you *might* be right. I mean, we are still left with the fact \nthat his name does not match any naming convention in the book. However, \neven if you are right, this does not preclude Fr. Inire being an \nintended anagram of Fenrir in the same sense that the characters' \nsaintly namesakes are intended to parallel their actions in the story. \nThe existence of a River Gyoll almost requires the existence of a Fenrir \nin the story.\n\nAnd, whether you are right or wrong, we are surely being invited to ask \nwho Father Inire's child or children are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, he twice mentions his 'cousins'. Not his brothers nor his \nmakers. I suspect he's not a hierodule. Something related to them, but \nnot one. Not that it matters terribly. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the New Testament there are references to Jesus' \"brothers\". Roman \nCatholic and Eastern Orthodox exegesis declares that this refers to his \n\"cousins\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C407FD9.4030806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T15:50:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<308147.26233.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually and symbolically.\n\nThat is the way I think Wolfe intended the parable of the Golden Book to \nbe read.\nHave you not found and read Severian's autobiography?\nHave you not therefore been in Master Ultan's Library?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 10:45 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nEr, in what sense do you mean that?\n\nActual? Symbolical? Sarcastical? Fantastical?\n\n--- On *Fri, 7/16/10, James Wynn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n Subject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 11:31 AM\n\n On 7/16/2010 9:52 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n > Are we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in\n the Library and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long\n time (3) that it will be read at all, in HIS future?\n\n Master Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as\n well. Your local library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library.\n Same with your local bookstore and the bookshelves in your home.\n\n u+16b9\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T15:51:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C407EC1.7090204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:46 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe existence of a River Gyoll\nalmost requires the existence of a Fenrir in the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be a rock Gyoll (Gjoll). The _river_ Gyoll was one of the\nrivers surrounding Hel, land of the dead (except for those who went to\nValhalla). It is therefore significant that the river Gyoll runs\nthrough a necropolis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the New Testament there are references to Jesus' \"brothers\". Roman\nCatholic and Eastern Orthodox exegesis declares that this refers to his\n\"cousins\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or other relatives. It isn't that specific." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C408317.1040907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T16:04:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The existence of a River Gyoll\nalmost requires the existence of a Fenrir in the story\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 10:51 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThat would be a rock Gyoll (Gjoll). The _river_ Gyoll was one of the\nrivers surrounding Hel, land of the dead (except for those who went to\nValhalla). It is therefore significant that the river Gyoll runs\nthrough a necropolis.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The homonymous naming is not incidental, neither in mythology nor, I \nbelieve, on Urth. In the cosmological sense, Gyoll is sometimes a river \nand sometimes a rock, but it is the same entity.\n\nThe Gyoll is not the only river in Hel. It does not _only_ run through a \nnecropolis. And it is not the river associated with the centaur Nessus \n(which is Evenus). I think Wolfe does a better job at naming than that.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<459613.15795.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T17:17:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C407FD9.4030806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes perfect sense. I just have never heard this interpretation.\n\n\n--- On Fri, 7/16/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, July 16, 2010, 11:50 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n \nActually and symbolically. \n\n\n\nThat is the way I think Wolfe intended the parable of the Golden Book\nto be read. \n\nHave you not found and read Severian's autobiography? \n\nHave you not therefore been in Master Ultan's Library?\n\n\n\nOn 7/16/2010 10:45 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n \n \n \n Er, in what sense do you mean that? \n\n \n\nActual? Symbolical? Sarcastical? Fantastical?\n\n \n\n--- On Fri, 7/16/10, James Wynn \nwrote:\n\n \n\nFrom: James Wynn \n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\n\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n\nDate: Friday, July 16, 2010, 11:31 AM\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 7/16/2010 9:52 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF\nwrote:\nAre we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in\nthe Library and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long time\n(3) that it will be read at all, in HIS future?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nMaster Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as well.\nYour local library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library. Same with\nyour local bookstore and the bookshelves in your home.\n\n \n\nu+16b9\n\n\nUrth Mailing List\n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n\n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C409813.7070608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T17:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C407EC1.7090204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (16-07-2010 16:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 6:34 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, he twice mentions his 'cousins'. Not his brothers nor his\nmakers. I suspect he's not a hierodule. Something related to them, but\n not one. Not that it matters terribly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the New Testament there are references to Jesus' \"brothers\". Roman\nCatholic and Eastern Orthodox exegesis declares that this refers to his\n\"cousins\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I wouldn't draw strong conclusions from the usage of a term that \napparently means 'brother'.\nBut I think it's suggestive that a term meaning 'cousins' was employed here." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-16T18:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<308147.26233.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actual.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Er, in what sense do you mean that?\n\nActual? Symbolical? Sarcastical? Fantastical?\n\n--- On Fri, 7/16/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, July 16, 2010, 11:31 AM\n\nOn 7/16/2010 9:52 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in the\nLibrary and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long time (3)\nthat it will be read at all, in HIS future?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Master Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as well. Your\nlocal library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library. Same with your local\nbookstore and the bookshelves in your home.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<765695d2e85b66609c4304f81a93f16d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-16T18:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C407FD9.4030806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catholic means universal.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually and symbolically.\n\nThat is the way I think Wolfe intended the parable of the Golden Book to\nbe read.\nHave you not found and read Severian's autobiography?\nHave you not therefore been in Master Ultan's Library?\n\nOn 7/16/2010 10:45 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Er, in what sense do you mean that?\n\nActual? Symbolical? Sarcastical? Fantastical?\n\n--- On *Fri, 7/16/10, James Wynn //* wrote:\n\n\n From: James Wynn \n Subject: Re: (urth) Master Ultan's Library\n To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \n Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 11:31 AM\n\n On 7/16/2010 9:52 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n > Are we to assume that (1) Severian expects to place the book in\n the Library and ONLY there (2) that it will stay there for a long\n time (3) that it will be read at all, in HIS future?\n\n Master Ultan's Library is expansive and extends though Time as\n well. Your local library is an extension of M. Ultan's Library.\n Same with your local bookstore and the bookshelves in your home.\n\n u+16b9\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008201cb251b$0e215000$d3d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T19:13:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C4043B4.5030906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio wrote:\nI finally got around to revisiting the letter.\n\nFirst thing of, he refers to himself as 'Inire'. That suggests against\nmangling of the name, at least including word boundaries.\n\nSecond, he twice mentions his 'cousins'. Not his brothers nor his makers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "suspect he's not a hierodule. Something related to them, but not one. Not\nthat it matters terribly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A holy slave need not be any particular species. BF&O are hierodules. The\nformer are biological creatures; Ossipago is a machine. The biological\nhierodules, at least, were developed by the Hierogrammates to do the grunt\nwork in Briah, in much the same way that the Hieros had developed the\nHierogrammates. Inire told Severian that the Cumaean was a hierodule,\nwhether or not she was a member of the same short-lived species as Barbatus\nand Famulimus.\n\nThere is no doubt at all that Severian believed that Inire was a member of a\nshort-lived kind -- he said so. I suspect that Inire's use of \"cousins\" in\nthe letter was just a generic, euphemistic term for his short-lived kind, in\nmuch the same sense that a Christian may speak of his fellow believers as\n\"brothers in Christ\".\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-16T20:14:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<008201cb251b$0e215000$d3d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nThere is no doubt at all that Severian believed that Inire was a member of \na\nshort-lived kind -- he said so. I suspect that Inire's use of \"cousins\" in\nthe letter was just a generic, euphemistic term for his short-lived kind, \nin\nmuch the same sense that a Christian may speak of his fellow believers as\n\"brothers in Christ\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, we don't know anything about how hierodules are born / constructed / \nhatched. Maybe he feels \"brother\" is too suggestive of a human-like \nreproductive system.\n\nAdmittedly he seems to have no problem with calling himself \"Father\", but \nthen again the word \"father\" here is clearly (?) being used metaphorically.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<738613.56697.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T20:20:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Cousins\" could indicate a certain distance, political, cultural, motivational, or otherwise. \n\nAs in \"our American cousins...\" in a Le Carre novel.\n\n--- On Fri, 7/16/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Inire as a hierodule\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, July 16, 2010, 4:14 PM\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nThere is no doubt at all that Severian believed that Inire was a member of a\nshort-lived kind -- he said so. I suspect that Inire's use of \"cousins\" in\nthe letter was just a generic, euphemistic term for his short-lived kind, in\nmuch the same sense that a Christian may speak of his fellow believers as\n\"brothers in Christ\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, we don't know anything about how hierodules are born / constructed / hatched. Maybe he feels \"brother\" is too suggestive of a human-like reproductive system.\n\nAdmittedly he seems to have no problem with calling himself \"Father\", but then again the word \"father\" here is clearly (?) being used metaphorically.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C40C157.3000805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T20:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 3:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAdmittedly he seems to have no problem with calling himself \"Father\", \nbut then again the word \"father\" here is clearly (?) being used \nmetaphorically. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you really so sure about the use of the word \"clearly\" that you only \nrequire a single \"?\" ?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C40EE07.7020106@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-16T23:40:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a couple of quick thoughts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and consequently short-\nlived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and consquently an obedient\nservant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it to be one\nI do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too \nmuch on the alleged naming conventions IMO.\n, though\nAndre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he undercut much of the\ncredibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski casts her as sort of a\nMother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire hierodule character.\nBut she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have thoughts on her?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily \nupon the vision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first \nexperience at the Stone Town) that she's an alien; that while the \nWitches regard her as one of their own she's not human but a \nrepresentative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the hieros upon Urth.\n\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply \nunnecessary.\nSev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology \nWolfe invokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a \nvision of the 'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a \nwitch. 'Long Body'? well, that would be the body of a human or other \nliving being seen from a four-dimensional POV; from that POV your body, \nmine, everyone else's, would definitely seem many eyed and snake-like!\n\nTo elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears as \na snake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) the \n'divine' point of view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, during \nthis experience. 'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. 'Outside \nof the temporal universe' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point of view a \nfew times, stating that every being that has ever lived is alive \n'somewhere / when', and also asserting strenuously that he believes his \nAutarchia, Valeria, is still alive ... *somewhere*. Yes she is; from one \nwho can perceive directly, or imagine, the temporal universe from some \nplace 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in her own segment of the \nfour-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into and out of this world \nat the desired / destined points, that is the real trick; learning to \nnavigate the Corridors of Time, in other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. I don't. I think he\nis one of the machines that humanity built which then created the hierogrammates. The phrase\n\"deus ex machina\" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've always liked how Ossipago's\nrole in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of that phrase.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with Andre-Driussi \nabout the three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to assume that \nsince Ossipago can be translated as 'bone grower', he, although \nbasically a mechanism, is the nurse / guardian of both Famulimus and \nBarbatus. I think it makes far more sense in the context of the New Sun \nopus that all three names have some relevance to a role vs. Severian \nhimself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his growth from \nbabyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty (Barbatus = name \nof minor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of the first beard of \nthe adolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps him on the moral (as \nopposed to traditional) straight and narrow: the famulimus is the Roman \nminor deity responsible for a person's reputation, and s/he is \npresumably rooting for Sev as he makes the very difficult decsion to go \nfor basic good vs. evil morality rather than for guild tradition (which \nkind of turns good and evil on their heads in this context) as he grants \nmercy to Thecla at his own future's expense (he had every reason as he \ndid what he did to expect that he would be executed for his 'crime'; \nthis is therefore a real sacrifice of self for the greater good).\n\ndon't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling over \nthe statements of the various commentators on all of these questions and \ngiven the thread, this seemed a good place to comment.\n\nAgain forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really \nreally want to get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do it \nunless I start a 'new' thread.\n\nregards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \t\t \t \t\t\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T01:29:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C4058DF.9010504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:04 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome of my favorite passages in Severian's narration involve commentary on\nliterary style. In Shadow, he compares writing to execution of the\ncondemned.\n\nWhat do you all make of the following mention of Master Ultan's Library?\n\nSimilarly *you, who will some day delve in Master Ultan's library,* will\nrequire of me no long delays; personages who are permitted to speak only\nbriefly yet do it well; certain dramatic pauses which shall signal to you\nthat something of import is about to occur; excitement; and a sating\nquantity of blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My favored interpretation in this: we all agree that Master Ultan is\nJorge Luis Borges. What was one of Borges's most famous short stories?\n\"The Library of Babel\"*, containing all possible books. From a certain\npoint of view**, there is no writing or creation, but finding - or\n'delving' - inside the infinite library.\n\nThe Library of Babel contains all libraries, and so any library you or\nI find _The Book of the New Sun_ within is also a finding within\nBorges's/Ultan's library.\n\n(This is an out-of-universe explanation, yes, but I don't think the\nin-universe explanations are tenable, since when Severian writes it,\ndoesn't he already plan to set it adrift it the void?)\n\n* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Library_of_Babel\n** eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_Control:_The_New_Biology_of_Machines,_Social_Systems,_and_the_Economic_World" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C411AFA.5060802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T02:52:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly my concern: if he throws it into the void, how is it found?\n\nBut I agree---there seems to be a Borgesian aspect to the Library, for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:04 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some of my favorite passages in Severian's narration involve commentary on\nliterary style. In Shadow, he compares writing to execution of the\ncondemned.\n\nWhat do you all make of the following mention of Master Ultan's Library?\n\nSimilarly *you, who will some day delve in Master Ultan's library,* will\nrequire of me no long delays; personages who are permitted to speak only\nbriefly yet do it well; certain dramatic pauses which shall signal to you\nthat something of import is about to occur; excitement; and a sating\nquantity of blood.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My favored interpretation in this: we all agree that Master Ultan is\nJorge Luis Borges. What was one of Borges's most famous short stories?\n\"The Library of Babel\"*, containing all possible books. From a certain\npoint of view**, there is no writing or creation, but finding - or\n'delving' - inside the infinite library.\n\nThe Library of Babel contains all libraries, and so any library you or\nI find _The Book of the New Sun_ within is also a finding within\nBorges's/Ultan's library.\n\n(This is an out-of-universe explanation, yes, but I don't think the\nin-universe explanations are tenable, since when Severian writes it,\ndoesn't he already plan to set it adrift it the void?)\n\n* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Library_of_Babel\n** eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_Control:_The_New_Biology_of_Machines,_Social_Systems,_and_the_Economic_World\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C411B2D.8050303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T02:53:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C40EE07.7020106@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That explanation of the Cumaean makes an amazing amount of sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\nJust a couple of quick thoughts.\n\nOn 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and \nconsequently short-\nlived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and \nconsquently an obedient\nservant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it \nto be one\nI do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too \nmuch on the alleged naming conventions IMO.\n, though\nAndre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he \nundercut much of the\ncredibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski \ncasts her as sort of a\nMother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire \nhierodule character.\nBut she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have \nthoughts on her?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily \nupon the vision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first \nexperience at the Stone Town) that she's an alien; that while the \nWitches regard her as one of their own she's not human but a \nrepresentative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the hieros upon Urth.\n\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's \nsimply unnecessary.\nSev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist \ncosmology Wolfe invokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and \nrepresents a vision of the 'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in \nBOTNS terms, a witch. 'Long Body'? well, that would be the body of a \nhuman or other living being seen from a four-dimensional POV; from \nthat POV your body, mine, everyone else's, would definitely seem many \neyed and snake-like!\n\nTo elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears \nas a snake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) \nthe 'divine' point of view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, \nduring this experience. 'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. \n'Outside of the temporal universe' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point \nof view a few times, stating that every being that has ever lived is \nalive 'somewhere / when', and also asserting strenuously that he \nbelieves his Autarchia, Valeria, is still alive ... *somewhere*. Yes \nshe is; from one who can perceive directly, or imagine, the temporal \nuniverse from some place 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in her \nown segment of the four-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into \nand out of this world at the desired / destined points, that is the \nreal trick; learning to navigate the Corridors of Time, in other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. \nI don't. I think he\nis one of the machines that humanity built which then created the \nhierogrammates. The phrase\n\"deus ex machina\" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've \nalways liked how Ossipago's\nrole in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of \nthat phrase.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with \nAndre-Driussi about the three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to \nassume that since Ossipago can be translated as 'bone grower', he, \nalthough basically a mechanism, is the nurse / guardian of both \nFamulimus and Barbatus. I think it makes far more sense in the context \nof the New Sun opus that all three names have some relevance to a role \nvs. Severian himself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his \ngrowth from babyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty \n(Barbatus = name of minor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of \nthe first beard of the adolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps \nhim on the moral (as opposed to traditional) straight and narrow: the \nfamulimus is the Roman minor deity responsible for a person's \nreputation, and s/he is presumably rooting for Sev as he makes the \nvery difficult decsion to go for basic good vs. evil morality rather \nthan for guild tradition (which kind of turns good and evil on their \nheads in this context) as he grants mercy to Thecla at his own \nfuture's expense (he had every reason as he did what he did to expect \nthat he would be executed for his 'crime'; this is therefore a real \nsacrifice of self for the greater good).\n\ndon't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling \nover the statements of the various commentators on all of these \nquestions and given the thread, this seemed a good place to comment.\n\nAgain forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really \nreally want to get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do \nit unless I start a 'new' thread.\n\nregards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your \ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<521837.62873.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T03:51:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<4C411AFA.5060802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:04 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some of my favorite passages in Severian's narration involve commentary on\nliterary style. In Shadow, he compares writing to execution of the\ncondemned.\n\nWhat do you all make of the following mention of Master Ultan's Library?\n\nSimilarly *you, who will some day delve in Master Ultan's library,* " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He thinks we'll read the copy in the library, not knowing that it will probably \nbe destroyed by the flood and that we're in a later universe, so we're reading a \ntranslation of the copy he plans to set adrift." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My favored interpretation in this: we all agree that Master Ultan is\nJorge Luis Borges. What was one of Borges's most famous short stories?\n\"The Library of Babel\"*, containing all possible books. From a certain\npoint of view**, there is no writing or creation, but finding - or\n'delving' - inside the infinite library." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Library of Babel contains all libraries, and so any library you or\nI find _The Book of the New Sun_ within is also a finding within\nBorges's/Ultan's library." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(This is an out-of-universe explanation, yes, but I don't think the\nin-universe explanations are tenable, since when Severian writes it,\ndoesn't he already plan to set it adrift it the void?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's exactly my concern: if he throws it into the void, how is it found?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mysteriously, the same way it's translated. If we want to imagine the \ninvolvement of powers above the stage, there's no shortage in the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I agree---there seems to be a Borgesian aspect to the Library, for sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly. I wouldn't say that Master Ultan IS Borges--that would mean Wolfe \nthinks the real Jorge Luis Borges would be greedy to eat the flesh of the dead \nto get their memories and would reveal this greed though hypocritically trying \nto deny it. The idea that Borges would have wanted to use the alzabo may not be \nridiculous, but I think Wolfe admires him too much to show him this way.\n\nThis doesn't weaken your argument, though, Gwern. We certainly agree that \nMaster Ultan is supposed to remind us of Borges, so the strangely extensive \nlibrary can remind us of the Library of Babel. But I thought the Library of \nBabel contained all books, not all libraries. I'd say the thought that all \nlibraries in our universe are part of Master Ultan's library is there for us to \nenjoy, and I wouldn't have thought of it myself, but I don't see it as the \nexplanation of Severian's comment.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T05:28:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "<521837.62873.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:\nBut I agree---there seems to be a Borgesian aspect to the ?Library, for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly. ?I wouldn't say that Master Ultan IS Borges--that would mean Wolfe\nthinks the real Jorge Luis Borges ?would be greedy to eat the flesh of the dead\nto get their memories and would reveal this greed though hypocritically trying\nto deny it. ?The idea that Borges would have wanted to use the alzabo may not be\nridiculous, but I think Wolfe admires him too much to show him this way.\n\nThis doesn't weaken your argument, though, Gwern. ?We certainly agree that\nMaster Ultan is supposed to remind us of Borges, so the strangely extensive\nlibrary can remind us of the Library of Babel. ?But I thought the Library of\nBabel contained all books, not all libraries. ?I'd say the thought that all\nlibraries in our universe are part of Master Ultan's library is there for us to\nenjoy, and I wouldn't have thought of it myself, but I don't see it as the\nexplanation of Severian's comment.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't want to defend this identification too literally; no more\nthan I would Baldanders=Frankenstein.\n\nBut I think Borges's library is all libraries; how the pages are split\nover volumes isn't really important. (If Ultan's library has the text\nof _The Count of Monte Cristo_ in one volume, and Borges's library has\nit split over 2 volumes because its volumes are smaller/fixed lengths,\ndoes that really matter?) Content is king, and Borges's library has it\nall, eventually." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4152FC.7050508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T06:51:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Master Ultan's Library", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 8:29 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n(This is an out-of-universe explanation, yes, but I don't think the\nin-universe explanations are tenable, since when Severian writes it,\ndoesn't he already plan to set it adrift it the void?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That depends on if we are reading the translation of the first copy, \nleft behind, or of the second, written aboard the Ship.\n\nI personally think he wrote the second to keep his mind(s) occupied with \na diversion instead of dwelling on his likely emasculation, and the \nnotional provenance of the ms translated by G.W. as well as the \nartifacts he has examined includes apportation by mirror or \ntransportation through the Botanic Gardens." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41547E.30901@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T06:58:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C40EE07.7020106@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/2010 6:40 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nSev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology\nWolfe invokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a\nvision of the 'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a\nwitch. 'Long Body'? well, that would be the body of a human or other\nliving being seen from a four-dimensional POV; from that POV your body,\nmine, everyone else's, would definitely seem many eyed and snake-like!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where do the many eyes come in? Why don't other people share the same \nsnakelike appearance when looked at tin the same way by Sev?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<780BC3D42DD047FD8182EE8F91C39066@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-17T08:12:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire as a hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<4C40C157.3000805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nOn 7/16/2010 3:14 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Admittedly he seems to have no problem with calling himself \"Father\", but \nthen again the word \"father\" here is clearly (?) being used \nmetaphorically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you really so sure about the use of the word \"clearly\" that you only \nrequire a single \"?\" ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The '?' is to acknowledge that someone has proposed or will propose that \nInire is the biological progenitor of nearly all the characters in the \nstory, including himself. Its singleness is intended to indicate that I do \nnot personally find such lines of inquiry terribly useful.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41A7C9.9020605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T12:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C41547E.30901@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd guess something happened at that moment to put Severian into that \nperspective. Perhaps it wasn't Severian who slipped into 4 dimensions \nbut the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/16/2010 6:40 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology\nWolfe invokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a\nvision of the 'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a\nwitch. 'Long Body'? well, that would be the body of a human or other\nliving being seen from a four-dimensional POV; from that POV your body,\nmine, everyone else's, would definitely seem many eyed and snake-like!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where do the many eyes come in? Why don't other people share the same \nsnakelike appearance when looked at tin the same way by Sev?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<38724.87433.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T13:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a\n\thierodule)", "in_reply_to": "<4C40EE07.7020106@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply \nunnecessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not criticizing the theory of the Cumean, but I just find it awesome that you \ninvoke Occam's Razor to eliminate the possibility that she's an alien in favor \nof the vicissitudes of four-dimensional perception as related to Hindu/Buddhist \ncosmology.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, July 16, 2010 6:40:55 PM\nSubject: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)\n\nJust a couple of quick thoughts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and \nconsequently short-\nlived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and consquently an \nobedient\nservant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it to be one\nI do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too much on \nthe alleged naming conventions IMO.\n, though\nAndre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he undercut much of \nthe\ncredibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski casts her as \nsort of a\nMother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire hierodule \ncharacter.\nBut she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have thoughts on \nher?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily upon the \nvision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first experience at the Stone \nTown) that she's an alien; that while the Witches regard her as one of their own \nshe's not human but a representative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the hieros \nupon Urth.\n\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply \nunnecessary.\nSev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology Wolfe \ninvokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a vision of the \n'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a witch. 'Long Body'? \nwell, that would be the body of a human or other living being seen from a \nfour-dimensional POV; from that POV your body, mine, everyone else's, would \ndefinitely seem many eyed and snake-like!\n\nTo elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears as a \nsnake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) the 'divine' point \nof view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, during this experience. \n'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. 'Outside of the temporal \nuniverse' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point of view a few times, stating that \nevery being that has ever lived is alive 'somewhere / when', and also asserting \nstrenuously that he believes his Autarchia, Valeria, is still alive ... \n*somewhere*. Yes she is; from one who can perceive directly, or imagine, the \ntemporal universe from some place 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in her own \nsegment of the four-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into and out of \nthis world at the desired / destined points, that is the real trick; learning to \nnavigate the Corridors of Time, in other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. I don't. \nI think he\nis one of the machines that humanity built which then created the \nhierogrammates. The phrase\n\"deus ex machina\" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've always liked \nhow Ossipago's\nrole in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of that phrase.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with Andre-Driussi about \nthe three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to assume that since Ossipago \ncan be translated as 'bone grower', he, although basically a mechanism, is the \nnurse / guardian of both Famulimus and Barbatus. I think it makes far more sense \nin the context of the New Sun opus that all three names have some relevance to a \nrole vs. Severian himself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his growth \nfrom babyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty (Barbatus = name of \nminor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of the first beard of the \nadolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps him on the moral (as opposed to \ntraditional) straight and narrow: the famulimus is the Roman minor deity \nresponsible for a person's reputation, and s/he is presumably rooting for Sev \nas he makes the very difficult decsion to go for basic good vs. evil morality \nrather than for guild tradition (which kind of turns good and evil on their \nheads in this context) as he grants mercy to Thecla at his own future's expense \n(he had every reason as he did what he did to expect that he would be executed \nfor his 'crime'; this is therefore a real sacrifice of self for the greater \ngood).\n\ndon't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling over the \nstatements of the various commentators on all of these questions and given the \nthread, this seemed a good place to comment.\n\nAgain forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really really want \nto get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do it unless I start a \n'new' thread.\n\nregards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n1\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4477017b4bd7a9b25bff66e2a867ecb0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-17T13:56:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a\n hierodule)", "in_reply_to": "<38724.87433.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply\nunnecessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not criticizing the theory of the Cumean, but I just find it awesome that\nyou invoke Occam's Razor to eliminate the possibility that she's an alien\nin favor of the vicissitudes of four-dimensional perception as related to\nHindu/Buddhist cosmology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(A) Why awesome, particularly?\n\n(B) Your reaction is odd. No aliens are known to exist. Both\nHindu/Buddhist cosmology and four-dimensional perception exist.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, July 16, 2010 6:40:55 PM\nSubject: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)\n\nJust a couple of quick thoughts.\n\nOn 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and\nconsequently short-\nlived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and\nconsquently an\nobedient\nservant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it to\nbe one\nI do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too much\non\nthe alleged naming conventions IMO.\n, though\nAndre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he undercut\nmuch of\nthe\ncredibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski casts\nher as\nsort of a\nMother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire hierodule\ncharacter.\nBut she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have\nthoughts on\nher?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily\nupon the\nvision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first experience at the\nStone\nTown) that she's an alien; that while the Witches regard her as one of\ntheir own\nshe's not human but a representative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the\nhieros\nupon Urth.\n\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply\nunnecessary.\nSev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology\nWolfe\ninvokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a vision\nof the\n'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a witch. 'Long\nBody'?\nwell, that would be the body of a human or other living being seen from a\nfour-dimensional POV; from that POV your body, mine, everyone else's,\nwould\ndefinitely seem many eyed and snake-like!\n\nTo elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears as a\nsnake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) the 'divine'\npoint\nof view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, during this experience.\n'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. 'Outside of the temporal\nuniverse' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point of view a few times, stating\nthat\nevery being that has ever lived is alive 'somewhere / when', and also\nasserting\nstrenuously that he believes his Autarchia, Valeria, is still alive ...\n*somewhere*. Yes she is; from one who can perceive directly, or imagine,\nthe\ntemporal universe from some place 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in\nher own\nsegment of the four-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into and out\nof\nthis world at the desired / destined points, that is the real trick;\nlearning to\nnavigate the Corridors of Time, in other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. I\ndon't.\nI think he\nis one of the machines that humanity built which then created the\nhierogrammates. The phrase\n\"deus ex machina\" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've always\nliked\nhow Ossipago's\nrole in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of that\nphrase." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with Andre-Driussi\nabout\nthe three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to assume that since\nOssipago\ncan be translated as 'bone grower', he, although basically a mechanism, is\nthe\nnurse / guardian of both Famulimus and Barbatus. I think it makes far more\nsense\nin the context of the New Sun opus that all three names have some\nrelevance to a\nrole vs. Severian himself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his\ngrowth\nfrom babyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty (Barbatus =\nname of\nminor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of the first beard of the\nadolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps him on the moral (as\nopposed to\ntraditional) straight and narrow: the famulimus is the Roman minor deity\nresponsible for a person's reputation, and s/he is presumably rooting for\nSev\nas he makes the very difficult decsion to go for basic good vs. evil\nmorality\nrather than for guild tradition (which kind of turns good and evil on\ntheir\nheads in this context) as he grants mercy to Thecla at his own future's\nexpense\n(he had every reason as he did what he did to expect that he would be\nexecuted\nfor his 'crime'; this is therefore a real sacrifice of self for the\ngreater\ngood).\n\ndon't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling over\nthe\nstatements of the various commentators on all of these questions and given\nthe\nthread, this seemed a good place to comment.\n\nAgain forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really really\nwant\nto get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do it unless I\nstart a\n'new' thread.\n\nregards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<241158.88242.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T14:10:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a\n\thierodule)", "in_reply_to": "<4477017b4bd7a9b25bff66e2a867ecb0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A) Awesome because the \"simpler\" example is obviously *way* more complex, as far \nas explanations go.\n\nB) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do exist.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, July 17, 2010 8:56:16 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply\nunnecessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not criticizing the theory of the Cumean, but I just find it awesome that\nyou invoke Occam's Razor to eliminate the possibility that she's an alien\nin favor of the vicissitudes of four-dimensional perception as related to\nHindu/Buddhist cosmology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(A) Why awesome, particularly?\n\n(B) Your reaction is odd. No aliens are known to exist. Both\nHindu/Buddhist cosmology and four-dimensional perception exist.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jane Delawney \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Fri, July 16, 2010 6:40:55 PM\nSubject: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)\n\nJust a couple of quick thoughts.\n\nOn 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and\nconsequently short-\nlived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and\nconsquently an\nobedient\nservant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it to\nbe one\nI do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too much\non\nthe alleged naming conventions IMO.\n, though\nAndre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he undercut\nmuch of\nthe\ncredibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski casts\nher as\nsort of a\nMother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire hierodule\ncharacter.\nBut she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have\nthoughts on\nher?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily\nupon the\nvision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first experience at the\nStone\nTown) that she's an alien; that while the Witches regard her as one of\ntheir own\nshe's not human but a representative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the\nhieros\nupon Urth.\n\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply\nunnecessary.\nSev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology\nWolfe\ninvokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a vision\nof the\n'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a witch. 'Long\nBody'?\nwell, that would be the body of a human or other living being seen from a\nfour-dimensional POV; from that POV your body, mine, everyone else's,\nwould\ndefinitely seem many eyed and snake-like!\n\nTo elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears as a\nsnake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) the 'divine'\npoint\nof view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, during this experience.\n'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. 'Outside of the temporal\nuniverse' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point of view a few times, stating\nthat\nevery being that has ever lived is alive 'somewhere / when', and also\nasserting\nstrenuously that he believes his Autarchia, Valeria, is still alive ...\n*somewhere*. Yes she is; from one who can perceive directly, or imagine,\nthe\ntemporal universe from some place 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in\nher own\nsegment of the four-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into and out\nof\nthis world at the desired / destined points, that is the real trick;\nlearning to\nnavigate the Corridors of Time, in other words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. I\ndon't.\nI think he\nis one of the machines that humanity built which then created the\nhierogrammates. The phrase\n\"deus ex machina\" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've always\nliked\nhow Ossipago's\nrole in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of that\nphrase." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with Andre-Driussi\nabout\nthe three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to assume that since\nOssipago\ncan be translated as 'bone grower', he, although basically a mechanism, is\nthe\nnurse / guardian of both Famulimus and Barbatus. I think it makes far more\nsense\nin the context of the New Sun opus that all three names have some\nrelevance to a\nrole vs. Severian himself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his\ngrowth\nfrom babyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty (Barbatus =\nname of\nminor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of the first beard of the\nadolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps him on the moral (as\nopposed to\ntraditional) straight and narrow: the famulimus is the Roman minor deity\nresponsible for a person's reputation, and s/he is presumably rooting for\nSev\nas he makes the very difficult decsion to go for basic good vs. evil\nmorality\nrather than for guild tradition (which kind of turns good and evil on\ntheir\nheads in this context) as he grants mercy to Thecla at his own future's\nexpense\n(he had every reason as he did what he did to expect that he would be\nexecuted\nfor his 'crime'; this is therefore a real sacrifice of self for the\ngreater\ngood).\n\ndon't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling over\nthe\nstatements of the various commentators on all of these questions and given\nthe\nthread, this seemed a good place to comment.\n\nAgain forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really really\nwant\nto get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do it unless I\nstart a\n'new' thread.\n\nregards\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n\n1\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63001c9cc1cb09394ede772426884853.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-17T14:28:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a\n hierodule)", "in_reply_to": "<241158.88242.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A) Awesome because the \"simpler\" example is obviously *way* more complex,\nas far as explanations go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome because you were being an asshole, and wanted to show how any\nreasonable person thinks that aliens are more likely than religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do\nexist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the World.\n\nIn the World, Hindu/Buddhist cosmology and four dimensional perception\nundoubtedly exist.\n\nDo you doubt that these things exist?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<619650.11970.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T15:23:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a\n\thierodule)", "in_reply_to": "<63001c9cc1cb09394ede772426884853.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A) You're over-reacting. I like irony. Consequently, I actually liked the post \nand specifically said I wasn't criticizing the ideas put forward about the \nCumean. Yet somehow you accuse me of being an asshole.\n\nB) I thought we were interpreting a novel. In that novel, aliens seem like a \nmuch more likely explanation since they are much more prevalent in the novel \nthan the theory put forward. That doesn't make it impossible, of course. But it \ndoes make it simpler, which I thought was the entire point of Occam's Razor.\n\nThat's all. I'm done. I'm sure Josh will find offense in something I've posted \nand respond by trying to ask me simple questions about \"facts\" or \"definitions\" \nas he sees them. I'll let him have the last word.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sat, July 17, 2010 9:28:40 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)\nA) Awesome because the \"simpler\" example is obviously *way* more complex,\nas far as explanations go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome because you were being an asshole, and wanted to show how any\nreasonable person thinks that aliens are more likely than religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "B) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do\nexist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the World.\n\nIn the World, Hindu/Buddhist cosmology and four dimensional perception\nundoubtedly exist.\n\nDo you doubt that these things exist?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41D26E.1010300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T15:55:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<63001c9cc1cb09394ede772426884853.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regardless, they exist in the universe of Urth.\n\nSo do aliens, but that doesn't mean talking cabbages can be assumed to \nexist in the universe of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nA) Awesome because the \"simpler\" example is obviously *way* more complex,\nas far as explanations go.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awesome because you were being an asshole, and wanted to show how any\nreasonable person thinks that aliens are more likely than religion.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "B) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do\nexist.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the World.\n\nIn the World, Hindu/Buddhist cosmology and four dimensional perception\nundoubtedly exist.\n\nDo you doubt that these things exist?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6875d386d55b9553fabad16a23737187.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-17T16:39:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C41D26E.1010300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The World of Urth depends upon this World.\n\nSomeone was discussing this concept in another context.\n\nThe World of Urth takes place within this World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regardless, they exist in the universe of Urth.\n\nSo do aliens, but that doesn't mean talking cabbages can be assumed to\nexist in the universe of Urth.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A) Awesome because the \"simpler\" example is obviously *way* more\ncomplex,\nas far as explanations go." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Awesome because you were being an asshole, and wanted to show how any\nreasonable person thinks that aliens are more likely than religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "B) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do\nexist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is the World.\n\nIn the World, Hindu/Buddhist cosmology and four dimensional perception\nundoubtedly exist.\n\nDo you doubt that these things exist?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-17T16:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C41D26E.1010300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All fictional and historical Worlds take place within the real World.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regardless, they exist in the universe of Urth.\n\nSo do aliens, but that doesn't mean talking cabbages can be assumed to\nexist in the universe of Urth.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A) Awesome because the \"simpler\" example is obviously *way* more\ncomplex,\nas far as explanations go." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Awesome because you were being an asshole, and wanted to show how any\nreasonable person thinks that aliens are more likely than religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "B) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do\nexist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is the World.\n\nIn the World, Hindu/Buddhist cosmology and four dimensional perception\nundoubtedly exist.\n\nDo you doubt that these things exist?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41EBAF.1000003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T17:43:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C41A7C9.9020605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/17/2010 7:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'd guess something happened at that moment to put Severian into that\nperspective. Perhaps it wasn't Severian who slipped into 4 dimensions\nbut the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He sees 4D on several occasions, generally whenever something departs \ninto the Corridors of Time \"in that direction I had never seen until I \nwatched the ship vanish into it from the top of Baldanders's castle and \ncould only see, it seemed, when there was something there. Immediately \nhe turned and began to run, and despite the dimness of the dawn sky I \ncould see his running figure for a long time, illuminated by \nintermittent but regular flashes. At last he faded to a point of \ndarkness; but then, just when I expected that point to disappear \nutterly, it began to grow, so that I had the impression of something \nhuge rushing toward me down that strangely angled tunnel.\"\n\nI've seen the snake/pink worm metaphor used before with higher \ndimensionality, particularly Heinlein's \"Lifeline\", but Sev's visions of \nobjects in the corridors seem more literal." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6efc1f00aef52c096109d4788e76d960.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-17T18:03:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others", "in_reply_to": "<4C41EBAF.1000003@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's an application on the web that you can use to learn how to see\nfour dimensions.\n\nHold on I'll post the link.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/17/2010 7:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd guess something happened at that moment to put Severian into that\nperspective. Perhaps it wasn't Severian who slipped into 4 dimensions\nbut the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He sees 4D on several occasions, generally whenever something departs\ninto the Corridors of Time \"in that direction I had never seen until I\nwatched the ship vanish into it from the top of Baldanders's castle and\ncould only see, it seemed, when there was something there. Immediately\nhe turned and began to run, and despite the dimness of the dawn sky I\ncould see his running figure for a long time, illuminated by\nintermittent but regular flashes. At last he faded to a point of\ndarkness; but then, just when I expected that point to disappear\nutterly, it began to grow, so that I had the impression of something\nhuge rushing toward me down that strangely angled tunnel.\"\n\nI've seen the snake/pink worm metaphor used before with higher\ndimensionality, particularly Heinlein's \"Lifeline\", but Sev's visions of\nobjects in the corridors seem more literal.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007b01cb25dd$599f3fc0$b1ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T18:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a\n\thierodule)", "in_reply_to": "<4C40EE07.7020106@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with Andre-Driussi\nabout the three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to assume that\nsince Ossipago can be translated as 'bone grower', he, although\nbasically a mechanism, is the nurse / guardian of both Famulimus and\nBarbatus. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose both men made that assumption because that is what the text says.\nSev is speaking to Ossipago on the Ship:\n\n-----------------\n\"And yours [Ossipago's name] means bone-grower. You took care of Barbatus\nand Famulimus when they were small, saw to it that they were fed and so on,\nand you've remained with them ever since. That's what Famulimus told me\nonce.\" (URTH, chap. V, 33)\n------------------\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C462DEC.5010902@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T23:14:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cumean again (was: Re: Fr Inire + Cumean + others)", "in_reply_to": "<38724.87433.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 17/07/10 14:15, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply\nunnecessary.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not criticizing the theory of the Cumean, but I just find it awesome that you\ninvoke Occam's Razor to eliminate the possibility that she's an alien in favor\nof the vicissitudes of four-dimensional perception as related to Hindu/Buddhist\ncosmology.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh my, Craig, what an awesome response! I don't know whether to do 'I am \nnot worthy' or ... what, actually!!\n\nHowever - the four-dimensional perception thing is not restricted to \nHindu/Buddhist cosmology; I mentioned that only because *as far as I \nknow* it is only that philosophical structure that uses the \n(cosmological shorthand) term 'long body', and that was my main point here.\n\nI still think that there is less of a disruption to current knowledge / \nbeliefs in seeing this vision of the Cumean as a vision of a \nfour-dimensional entity than there is in the notion that this 'proves' \nthat she is an alien. All of us exist in four dimensions (including \ntime needless to say) and from a point of view 'outside' of time would \nappear somewhat serpentine (I really hate to contemplate how much of my \n'long body' is currently knotted around a certain UK town :) ). I think \nthat's a given, known already, however you like to put it. But the \nexistence of aliens is still purely theoretical. Therefore if you posit \nthe Cumean as alien vs. the vision of her as a human seen in hir full \nfour dimensional reality, I think Occam's razor still applies and still \nfavors the latter.\n\nusual reason for monkeying with the header, sorry about that\n\ncheers\n\nJD" } ] } ] }