{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5643", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5643, "subject": "Hello, I'm a Newb", "messages": 9, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-06-30T21:28:30+00:00", "last": "2010-07-02T01:16:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<999655.47117.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Jost", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T21:28:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since Gene Wolfe was mentioned in an article appearing in First Things recently \nand was recommended through a friend I decided to pick up some of his books. I \nread \"An Evil Guest\" first, and once I realized I had missed pretty much the \nwhole book, I picked up the New Sun series (including the fifth book) and \npromised I would pay more attention. I have read some of the archive and the \nnotes on the Gene Wolfe Wiki (which I _think_ is maintained by one of you \nfolks?). \n\n\nI am now going to add my entirely wild musings to the mix.\n\n1.) Is Severian Albion? He becomes the \"Storm God\" in the end and the servitors \nof Albion also \"serve\" him especially when he is saved.\n2.) Is he the same Storm God as is in an \"Evil Guest\"? If they both exist on \nthe same timeline then \"An Evil Guest\" would be well within the period in which \nthe new sun is in transit (I'm assuming Apu is pre-colonial South American).\n3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged grandmother \nand consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?\n4.) Is Severian a proto(/post)-Christian (not -like) figure in a Mormon \nuniverse? That is it seems to have an endless hierarchy of gods. The concept \nof an \"uncreate\" blows this theory but the robots seem to have an endless \nhierarchy topped (roughly) by a race. Am I missing something?\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2BBD54.40209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T21:55:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "<999655.47117.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1.) Is Severian Albion? He becomes the \"Storm God\" in the end and the \nservitors of Albion also \"serve\" him especially when he is saved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you referring to William Blake's mythology?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2.) Is he the same Storm God as is in an \"Evil Guest\"? If they both \nexist on the same timeline then \"An Evil Guest\" would be well within \nthe period in which the new sun is in transit (I'm assuming Apu is \npre-colonial South American)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. I don't think Severian and Cassie are in the same \nliterary universe. The Storm God is described as an ancient alien who \nhas been on Earth since before the evolution of mankind. He seems to be \na sort of Cthulhu squid god. See \"The Tree is My Hat\" for a story set on \nCassie's island. See \"Endangered Species\" and \"Starwater Strains\" for \nstories set in Severian's universe. Also the Long/Short Sun series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged \ngrandmother and consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You were able to explained the plot to someone?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4.) Is Severian a proto(/post)-Christian (not -like) figure in a \nMormon universe? That is it seems to have an endless hierarchy of \ngods. The concept of an \"uncreate\" blows this theory but the robots \nseem to have an endless hierarchy topped (roughly) by a race. Am I \nmissing something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suggest you review the threads from a couple weeks ago on this. \nThere's not much of a consensus on this. But _I_ ascribe the generations \nof gods to the Sun Cycle universe being a Christian Gnostic one with \nit's layer upon layer of generational aeons.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2BBEB3.3000802@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-06-30T22:01:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) follow up (was: Re: Hello, I'm a Newb)", "in_reply_to": "<999655.47117.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First of all please forgive if I seem to change the message header for \nno reason; I already mentioned somewhere on list that my ISP's mail \nserver simply /will not/ (no matter how I fiddle with the settings) \nreturn my list mails to me unless I start a new thread. This is very \nannoying, obviously! Please Nicholas take this as a direct response to \nyour post of 22:28 tonight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 30/06/10 22:28, Nicholas Jost wrote:\nSince Gene Wolfe was mentioned in an article appearing in First Things recently\nand was recommended through a friend I decided to pick up some of his books. I\nread \"An Evil Guest\" first, and once I realized I had missed pretty much the\nwhole book, I picked up the New Sun series (including the fifth book) and\npromised I would pay more attention. I have read some of the archive and the\nnotes on the Gene Wolfe Wiki (which I _think_ is maintained by one of you\nfolks?).\n\n\nI am now going to add my entirely wild musings to the mix.\n\n1.) Is Severian Albion? He becomes the \"Storm God\" in the end and the servitors\nof Albion also \"serve\" him especially when he is saved.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's stated somewhere I think in the 5th book (can't be more specific \nright now, don't have the time frankly) that what is done on Urth at \nSeverian's time (whether that is during his apprenticeship, wanderings, \nAutarchy, return out of time as the Conciliator, or indeed as the \nSleeper Awakened upon Ushas) may 'echo' somehow back down the ages. \nAlso, the deeds of those around him may do much the same thing.\n\nIn this context we find Urth/Ushas echoes/prefigurings (from the \nHierodules' point of view, their time-sense runs backward vs. ours) of \nsuch popular and legendary myth-tropes as Dracula, Frankenstein (kind of \nbackwards here, with the 'Monster' ie Baldanders as the master), Robin \nHood (Vodalus is a somewhat perverted version of the 'good bandit'), \nStorm-gods (Severian seems to be in the role of Thor and similar \ndeities, as well as that of Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, when he \nquietens the storm on Gyoll - though the idea that this storm is based \nwithin his out of control anger is more Thor-like than Christ-like by a \nvery long way ... and possibly even more Marvel-Thor than \nNorse-Deity-Thor, for that matter), Sun-gods (Apu-Punchau is a name for \nthe Inca solar deity Inti) and Fish-gods such as Oannes (or even Jesus \nagain, though I do realise that the 'fish' thing has more to do with \nearly Christian need for concealment (the ICHTHOS glyph) than with any \nreal connection with the man Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged grandmother\nand consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Duh. No actually :) Why did you need to explain the plot to your Grannie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4.) Is Severian a proto(/post)-Christian (not -like) figure in a Mormon\nuniverse? That is it seems to have an endless hierarchy of gods. The concept\nof an \"uncreate\" blows this theory but the robots seem to have an endless\nhierarchy topped (roughly) by a race. Am I missing something?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's 'increate'. And as for Mormons, you tell us? I doubt there are \nmany Mormon experts on this list.\n\ncheers\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nicholas Jost\n\n\n\n\n \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-06-30T23:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "<999655.47117.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Nicholas Jost wrote:\n\nWelcome, Nicholas!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since Gene Wolfe was mentioned in an article appearing in First Things recently\nand was recommended through a friend I decided to pick up some of his books. I\nread \"An Evil Guest\" first, and once I realized I had missed pretty much the\nwhole book," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps not the best place to start ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I picked up the New Sun series (including the fifth book) and\npromised I would pay more attention. I have read some of the archive and the\nnotes on the Gene Wolfe Wiki (which I _think_ is maintained by one of you\nfolks?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am now going to add my entirely wild musings to the mix.\n\n1.) Is Severian Albion? He becomes the \"Storm God\" in the end and the servitors\nof Albion also \"serve\" him especially when he is saved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2.) Is he the same Storm God as is in an \"Evil Guest\"? If they both exist on\nthe same timeline then \"An Evil Guest\" would be well within the period in which\nthe new sun is in transit (I'm assuming Apu is pre-colonial South American)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost certainly not. Either it is well in our future, or in a different \n(cycle of the) universe. Severian muses that racial type (and I guess \nculture) is strongly determined by climate/geography, so that his future \nSouth America has ended up with similar cultures. Plus the conceit that \nhe has translated future cultures into modern day equivalents: someone \nrecently commented on the frisson encountered realising Frodo is actually \nFroda, similar to realizing what destriers look like, or what \"petrol\" is \nin Press's _Soldiers of Paradise_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged grandmother\nand consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It hasn't come up ;) but the aged grandmother might quite like the idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4.) Is Severian a proto(/post)-Christian (not -like) figure in a Mormon\nuniverse? That is it seems to have an endless hierarchy of gods. The concept\nof an \"uncreate\" blows this theory but the robots seem to have an endless\nhierarchy topped (roughly) by a race. Am I missing something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact that the setting is bang-gnab cyclical universes, so any type of \nchristian model has to handle multiple incarnations etc. That in early \nWestern thought, and in SF, there is plenty of room in the great chain for \nhigher beings than humankind. The Increate may be outside all these, like \nStapledon, but Wolfe implies he may be poking around. In Stapledon's \nsetup, there is evolution from universe to universe, so one could \npostulate less optimal Christs in earlier iterations. After saying that, \nWolfe has explicitly said that Severian is -like.\n\nThis kind of stuff has been hashed over endlessly on this list and in a \ncouple of books. Wolfe is deliberately ambiguous - not to mention that \n_UotNS_ may represent an (some say unhappy) evolution of ideas. The Long \nSun books are (more) Gnostic at a miniature scale, which may be a case of \n_as above, so below_. But the Short Sun books are ...revisionist.\n\nBasically, it comes down to whether you think BotNS has a happy ending or \nnot. You might reread _the Cock, the Angel and the Eagle_. That is, the \nHieros are doing as best as they can.\n\nCheers, David." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<534922.24103.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T03:54:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "<999655.47117.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Nicholas Jost \n3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged grandmother and consciously\nskipped over the Dorcas character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not me, but thanks for the smile.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T18:06:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "<534922.24103.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "grandmother and consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?\n\n\nYou were able to explained the plot to someone?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hahaha, my feelings exactly. I recently tried to explain the plot to one\nof my best friends and success was marginal at best. Before that I\nattempted an explanation to my father...... ...... ..... .... (can't put\nenough dots here). I eventually conceded defeat and settled for \"it's just\nan interesting book.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T18:11:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good heavens, explaining the plot isn't _that_ difficult.\n\n\"A young man is exiled from the Torturer's Guild for the crime of\nmercy. He meets many interesting people, has a variety of adventures,\nand ultimately becomes the ruler of his nation.\" The rest is details." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Josh Caswell wrote:\nJames Wynn\n\n3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged\ngrandmother and consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You were able to explained the plot to someone?\n\n\nHahaha, ?my feelings exactly. ?I recently tried to explain the plot to one\nof my best friends and success was marginal at best. ?Before that I\nattempted an explanation to my father...... ?...... ..... .... (can't put\nenough dots here). ?I eventually conceded defeat and settled for \"it's just\nan interesting book.\"\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Caswell", "address": "jandcaswell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-01T18:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll grant you that much of it, but I was trying to give a feel for the\nnuances and fell into a downward spiral of complexities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGood heavens, explaining the plot isn't _that_ difficult.\n\n\"A young man is exiled from the Torturer's Guild for the crime of\nmercy. He meets many interesting people, has a variety of adventures,\nand ultimately becomes the ruler of his nation.\" The rest is details.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Josh Caswell \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn\n\n3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged\ngrandmother and consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You were able to explained the plot to someone?\n\n\nHahaha, my feelings exactly. I recently tried to explain the plot to\none\nof my best friends and success was marginal at best. Before that I\nattempted an explanation to my father...... ...... ..... .... (can't put\nenough dots here). I eventually conceded defeat and settled for \"it's\njust\nan interesting book.\"\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2D3DFE.2070009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T01:16:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hello, I'm a Newb", "in_reply_to": "<999655.47117.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey Nicholas! Welcome to the Monkey House." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/30/2010 4:28 PM, Nicholas Jost wrote:\n3.) Has anyone else had difficulty explaining the plot to his aged\ngrandmother and consciously skipped over the Dorcas character?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My mother is also an aged grandmother, but she ended up explaining the \nplot of The Boy Who Hooked The Sun to me without knowing it, as part of \nher Hawaiian vacation slide show." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4.) Is Severian a proto(/post)-Christian (not -like) figure in a Mormon\nuniverse? That is it seems to have an endless hierarchy of gods. The\nconcept of an \"uncreate\" blows this theory but the robots seem to have\nan endless hierarchy topped (roughly) by a race." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mormon cosmology has some sophisticated nested structure, and there \nare indeed similar structures in the ascendancy of the Hieros and the \nsupervision of the Urthly galaxies from the superior beings of Yesod, \nbut the works maintain there's still one eternal Increate outside all of \nit. The exultant class *might* be a comment on the LDS' Exalted Man \nconcept of an embodied God among many such, but it might equally likely \nbe a coincidence." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }