{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5645", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5645, "subject": "Lives of the Great Beasts", "messages": 32, "voices": 11, "first": "2010-07-02T18:38:36+00:00", "last": "2010-07-04T13:57:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:38:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was some discussion on the list recently, or at least I think\nthere was, about the origins and nature of Abaia, Erebus, and the\nrest. I've just read the books again recently and had some questions I\nwanted to ask the list.\n\nThe narrative function of the megatherians is quite clear, I think.\nThe literary and mythological antecedents are also reasonably clear.\nWhat is not clear to me, however, is just what Wolfe had in mind about\ntheir nature, their arrival on Earth, or their motivation (though\nthere's more evidence for this last than the others).\n\nJonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna (I don't have the exact\nquote, but I think that's a reasonable approximation.) I suppose they\nmight also have been summoned via catoptromancy, though this seems\nlater in the timeline. If the former, then they must have been smaller\nand in a different form. I think it might be reasonable to assume that\ntheir true nature was not known and it was supposed that, while they\nmay grow large, they would not be monstrously intelligent, ambitious\nbeasts with the desire to rule the planet and the stars from which\nthey came. What would their own world have been like, then? But then\nit occurred to me that creatures such as this would take on the\ncharacteristics of their rulers as they grew. This would fit Wolfe's\ntreatment of alien life forms in other contexts and have some larger\nthematic significance.\n\nDoes that seem plausible?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:58:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nJonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna (I don't have the exact\nquote, but I think that's a reasonable approximation.) I suppose they\nmight also have been summoned via catoptromancy, though this seems\nlater in the timeline. If the former, then they must have been smaller\nand in a different form. I think it might be reasonable to assume that\ntheir true nature was not known and it was supposed that, while they\nmay grow large, they would not be monstrously intelligent, ambitious\nbeasts with the desire to rule the planet and the stars from which\nthey came. What would their own world have been like, then? But then\nit occurred to me that creatures such as this would take on the\ncharacteristics of their rulers as they grew. This would fit Wolfe's\ntreatment of alien life forms in other contexts and have some larger\nthematic significance.\n\nDoes that seem plausible?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone given any serious consideration to the idea that they are\n\"fallen\" Yesodi? Hieresiarchs, as it were?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E3B57.8010107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice idea. I always wondered what their motivation was, in taking an \ninterest in Urth among all the planets and races that might be out there.\n\nThat would explain their interest in Urth, if as Yesodis they opposed \nthe Yesod project to raise it up. It would be appropriately Satanic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna (I don't have the exact\nquote, but I think that's a reasonable approximation.) I suppose they\nmight also have been summoned via catoptromancy, though this seems\nlater in the timeline. If the former, then they must have been smaller\nand in a different form. I think it might be reasonable to assume that\ntheir true nature was not known and it was supposed that, while they\nmay grow large, they would not be monstrously intelligent, ambitious\nbeasts with the desire to rule the planet and the stars from which\nthey came. What would their own world have been like, then? But then\nit occurred to me that creatures such as this would take on the\ncharacteristics of their rulers as they grew. This would fit Wolfe's\ntreatment of alien life forms in other contexts and have some larger\nthematic significance.\n\nDoes that seem plausible?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone given any serious consideration to the idea that they are\n\"fallen\" Yesodi? Hieresiarchs, as it were?\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E40F0.5070004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 1:38 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nThere was some discussion on the list recently, or at least I think\nthere was, about the origins and nature of Abaia, Erebus, and the\nrest. I've just read the books again recently and had some questions I\nwanted to ask the list.\n\nThe narrative function of the megatherians is quite clear, I think.\nThe literary and mythological antecedents are also reasonably clear.\nWhat is not clear to me, however, is just what Wolfe had in mind about\ntheir nature, their arrival on Earth, or their motivation (though\nthere's more evidence for this last than the others)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think these are the same megatherians as the eponymous seventeen \nblack magicians. Though some of the seventeen were doubtlessly in league \nwith the mountain-sized crew, and I'd have to guess that they symbolize \nopportunist forces who bodily intrude where camel's nose, mortal sig, \nwent before." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:51:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E40F0.5070004@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI don't think these are the same megatherians as the eponymous seventeen\nblack magicians. Though some of the seventeen were doubtlessly in league\nwith the mountain-sized crew, and I'd have to guess that they symbolize\nopportunist forces who bodily intrude where camel's nose, mortal sig, went\nbefore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you explain in more detail what you mean? This doesn't make any\nsense to me at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T20:05:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is not clear to me, however, is just what Wolfe had in mind about\ntheir nature, their arrival on Earth, or their motivation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think Wolfe cannot be too specific in regard to this as being too \nexplicit would negate a necessary mythological essence of their nature.\n \nBut I think we can piece together a nice Megatherian back story using the\nNaviscaput tale, Juturna, Typhon, Baldanders as an aspiring Megatherian and\nJonas' tale of the star-spawned black beans (always considering the \nautobiographical component- Wolfe claims to have been grown from a bean by\nDamon Knight on an evening in June, 1966)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't remember this. Is it in reference to megatherians? My vague memory\nis that might refer to creatures like the alzabo; but that could surely be\nfaulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone given any serious consideration to the idea that they are\n\"fallen\" Yesodi? Hieresiarchs, as it were?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSure, a higher level universe (heaven) would seem a likely starting point\nfor fallen angels. I sometimes wonder if some of the horrors found in Briah\noriginate from the lower level hellish universe (Abaddon)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always wondered what their motivation was, in taking an \ninterest in Urth among all the planets and races that might be out there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy impression is that The Short Sun books suggest many planets could be home\nto giant, star-crossing, controlling, manipulative creatures. Motivation \nbecomes one of definition. Species which have no interest in controlling \nothers (like The Neighbors) do not devote the time and energy needed to \ntravel and conquer among the stars. They find equilibrium at home.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<956008.7688.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T20:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So is there a consensus on what the seventeen megatherians are?\n\n1) What I thought when I first noticed that title was that they were big animals, possibly with \"ther(e)\" in their names: arsinoither, baluchither, megathere, etc. The book would be their \"life histories\": how they are born, grow, eat at different stages, interact with each other and with other organisms, reproduce. It's just a coincidence that their number is the same as the Group of Seventeen.\n\n2) They're seventeen famous evil people from history. Cf. Borges's /Universal History of Infamy/. Again the repetition of seventeen is just a coincidence.\n\n3) They're Erebus, Abaia, etc. The name and the allusion to Revelation (and Aleister Crowley?) would be appropriate. The matching with the Group of Seventeen would not be a coincidence--we could speculate that each one \"operates\" one of the Group, or some such. (I think somebody said that in the past month or two, maybe Lee Berman?) It's hard to imagine what a book about their lives would contain, though.\n\n4) They're the original Group of Seventeen, who were probably revolutionaries and evil enough (at least in Commonwealth propaganda) to justify being called great beasts.\n\n5) They're a particularly beastly Group of Seventeen from some point in history.\n\n6) They're something else.\n\nIf anyone is thinking of consulting /Lexicon Urthus/, Michael Andre-Driussi is totall noncommittal on this one.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E5055.5090708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T20:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E40F0.5070004@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/2/2010 1:38 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There was some discussion on the list recently, or at least I think\nthere was, about the origins and nature of Abaia, Erebus, and the\nrest. I've just read the books again recently and had some questions I\nwanted to ask the list.\n\nThe narrative function of the megatherians is quite clear, I think.\nThe literary and mythological antecedents are also reasonably clear.\nWhat is not clear to me, however, is just what Wolfe had in mind about\ntheir nature, their arrival on Earth, or their motivation (though\nthere's more evidence for this last than the others)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think these are the same megatherians as the eponymous seventeen\nblack magicians. Though some of the seventeen were doubtlessly in league\nwith the mountain-sized crew, and I'd have to guess that they symbolize\nopportunist forces who bodily intrude where camel's nose, mortal sig,\nwent before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "or even \"mortal sin\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T20:59:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E3B57.8010107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNice idea. I always wondered what their motivation was, in taking an\ninterest in Urth among all the planets and races that might be out there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do they need special motivation to be interested in earth, if they\nare but one of many interstellar/cosmic beasts? What if Erebus or\nAbaia are on Urth by some accident instead of design, and they merely\nseek to dominate and enslave whatever they happen to find in their\npath?\n\nOr why set such paltry spatial limits on them in the first place?\nMaybe they exist on and are conscious of many worlds simultaneously.\n\nLet's not go artificially limiting our cosmic horrors with human failings.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T21:14:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The passage that, when I typed the original message, I was sure\nreferred specifically to Erebus, Abaia, etc., was not, it seems, said\nby Jonas. I have a strong memory of someone saying it, whether\nBaldanders, Dr. Talos, or someone else; but it's possible that I\nconflated it with a description of the alzabo, etc., which someone\nraised as a possibility earlier. I was almost sure that the word\n\"fauna\" is in the passage I remember. The latter two books are\nsearchable on google books, but the first two, it seems, are not.\n\nI like the explanation I had, though. I imagined Erebus, Abaia, etc.,\nas being something like protoplasms--pseudopodian animalcules emitted\nby some Solaris-type planet, which the Urthian xenobiologists\ndrastically mistake the nature of. I've also always found it curious\nthat Typhon is dismissive of them, which would fit with the idea that\nthey grew to emulate him and haven't yet achieved his power. (Typhon\nsent his children/subjects among the stars; Abaia grows his to swim\nbetween them, etc.)\n\nAnd then there's the idea that some earlier cycle of humans created\nthe hierogrammates, and the megatherians would be the dark mirror,\netc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nice idea. I always wondered what their motivation was, in taking an\ninterest in Urth among all the planets and races that might be out there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do they need special motivation to be interested in earth, if they\nare but one of many interstellar/cosmic beasts? “What if Erebus or\nAbaia are on Urth by some accident instead of design, and they merely\nseek to dominate and enslave whatever they happen to find in their\npath”\n\nOr why set such paltry spatial limits on them in the first place?\nMaybe they exist on and are conscious of many worlds simultaneously.\n\nLet's not go artificially limiting our cosmic horrors with human failings.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E56E3.7080705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T21:15:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mention \"special\" motivation. For all I know they're bored.\n\nIn which case, still---why Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nice idea. I always wondered what their motivation was, in taking an\ninterest in Urth among all the planets and races that might be out there.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do they need special motivation to be interested in earth, if they\nare but one of many interstellar/cosmic beasts? What if Erebus or\nAbaia are on Urth by some accident instead of design, and they merely\nseek to dominate and enslave whatever they happen to find in their\npath?\n\nOr why set such paltry spatial limits on them in the first place?\nMaybe they exist on and are conscious of many worlds simultaneously.\n\nLet's not go artificially limiting our cosmic horrors with human failings.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E5748.3060804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T21:16:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to think of them as Lovecraftian horrors. But I like this too: \nfallen hierogrammates?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nThe passage that, when I typed the original message, I was sure\nreferred specifically to Erebus, Abaia, etc., was not, it seems, said\nby Jonas. I have a strong memory of someone saying it, whether\nBaldanders, Dr. Talos, or someone else; but it's possible that I\nconflated it with a description of the alzabo, etc., which someone\nraised as a possibility earlier. I was almost sure that the word\n\"fauna\" is in the passage I remember. The latter two books are\nsearchable on google books, but the first two, it seems, are not.\n\nI like the explanation I had, though. I imagined Erebus, Abaia, etc.,\nas being something like protoplasms--pseudopodian animalcules emitted\nby some Solaris-type planet, which the Urthian xenobiologists\ndrastically mistake the nature of. I've also always found it curious\nthat Typhon is dismissive of them, which would fit with the idea that\nthey grew to emulate him and haven't yet achieved his power. (Typhon\nsent his children/subjects among the stars; Abaia grows his to swim\nbetween them, etc.)\n\nAnd then there's the idea that some earlier cycle of humans created\nthe hierogrammates, and the megatherians would be the dark mirror,\netc.\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nice idea. I always wondered what their motivation was, in taking an\ninterest in Urth among all the planets and races that might be out there.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do they need special motivation to be interested in earth, if they\nare but one of many interstellar/cosmic beasts? What if Erebus or\nAbaia are on Urth by some accident instead of design, and they merely\nseek to dominate and enslave whatever they happen to find in their\npath?\n\nOr why set such paltry spatial limits on them in the first place?\nMaybe they exist on and are conscious of many worlds simultaneously.\n\nLet's not go artificially limiting our cosmic horrors with human failings.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E5AC6.4030202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T21:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 2:51 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think these are the same megatherians as the eponymous seventeen\nblack magicians. Though some of the seventeen were doubtlessly in league\nwith the mountain-sized crew, and I'd have to guess that they symbolize\nopportunist forces who bodily intrude where camel's nose, mortal sig, went\nbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could you explain in more detail what you mean? This doesn't make any\nsense to me at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aleister Crowley, a notorious occult figure, called himself or at least \nidentified with among many other labels, The Great Beast. Megatherian \nmeans \"great beast.\" At the time of BoTNS' writing \"satanic panic\" was \ncoming into popularty, especially with other occult figures like Anton \nLavey openly operating satanic churches and even merchandising with book \ndeals like _The Satanic Bible_. Obviously these sorts of people live \nfabulously lurid, biography worthy lives, and just as there have been \nany number in centuries past like Cagliostro, surely any number more \nwill continue to come over the chiliads.\n\nThe connection with the alien powers is an inversion of the \nsanctifactory true service to a false god transforming one into a \ndefacto servant of the true god; a selfish, unpowered conman or gifted \nperson who prostitutes their gift for personal gain and notoriety are \nthus corrupting themselves into ready tools for deception and malice in \nthe service to the alien unworthy cause greater than themselves, while \neven believing they are doing good toward this \"higher\" purpose.\n\nJuturna might be an example of such a person." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T22:05:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E5AC6.4030202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I understand it, Crowley added \"mega\" to the word \"therion,\" which\ndoes not appear with that modifier in the Apocalypse, to describe\nhimself. I find it dubious that Wolfe would rely on a term used by an\nidiosyncratic megalomaniac, when the more literal description fits the\ntext so much more clearly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/2/2010 2:51 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Wilson “wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think these are the same megatherians as the eponymous seventeen\nblack magicians. Though some of the seventeen were doubtlessly in league\nwith the mountain-sized crew, and I'd have to guess that they symbolize\nopportunist forces who bodily intrude where camel's nose, mortal sig,\nwent\nbefore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Could you explain in more detail what you mean” This doesn't make any\nsense to me at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aleister Crowley, a notorious occult figure, called himself or at least\nidentified with among many other labels, The Great Beast. Megatherian means\n\"great beast.\" ?At the time of BoTNS' writing \"satanic panic\" was coming\ninto popularty, especially with other occult figures like Anton Lavey openly\noperating satanic churches and even merchandising with book deals like _The\nSatanic Bible_. Obviously these sorts of people live fabulously lurid,\nbiography worthy lives, and just as there have been any number in centuries\npast like Cagliostro, surely any number more will continue to come over the\nchiliads.\n\nThe connection with the alien powers is an inversion of the sanctifactory\ntrue service to a false god transforming one into a defacto servant of the\ntrue god; a selfish, unpowered conman or gifted person who prostitutes their\ngift for personal gain and notoriety are thus corrupting themselves into\nready tools for deception and malice in the service to the alien unworthy\ncause greater than themselves, while even believing they are doing good\ntoward this \"higher\" purpose.\n\nJuturna might be an example of such a person.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<805216.20188.qm@web37905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Jost", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T22:24:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia grows his to swim\nbetween them, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I almost forget that Severius \"swims\" back from the hole to the ship...\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2EA096.7070309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T02:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 5:05 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nAs I understand it, Crowley added \"mega\" to the word \"therion,\" which\ndoes not appear with that modifier in the Apocalypse, to describe\nhimself. I find it dubious that Wolfe would rely on a term used by an\nidiosyncratic megalomaniac, when the more literal description fits the\ntext so much more clearly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean. \"Megatherians\" is in the text. If \n\"megatherion\" is somehow tainted, why wouldn't he use somesthing less \nsimilar? It equally skims close \"Megatherium\", the name for the \nprehistoric giant sloth of the region, and whose latter-day counterpart \nappears in the Well of Orchids. Sloth biographies?\n\nOr it could refer these, equally colorful fellows:\n\nhttp://www.150.si.edu/chap3/club.htm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T03:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2EA096.7070309@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Megatherian\" is not Wolfe's coinage. It's in the OED. It is a simple\nvariant of the same word used to describe the extinct sloths, used in\nthe same way: \"great beast.\"\n\nWhat does \"megatherian\" mean in the New Sun? It refers to the great\nbeasts Abaia, Erebus, Scylla, Arioch, et al. (If they are the size of\nmountains, what bioengineered animal would warrant \"mega-\"?) There are\nsorcerers on Urth, and perhaps their power does come from the\nmegatherians. I doubt that the mentioned book is a parallel to\nGodwin's Lives of the Necromancers, however. To think it so would\nrequire making a specific inference from Crowley's silliness, and I\nsee no reason to do that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/2/2010 5:05 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I understand it, Crowley added \"mega\" to the word \"therion,\" which\ndoes not appear with that modifier in the Apocalypse, to describe\nhimself. I find it dubious that Wolfe would rely on a term used by an\nidiosyncratic megalomaniac, when the more literal description fits the\ntext so much more clearly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean. \"Megatherians\" is in the text. If \"megatherion\"\nis somehow tainted, why wouldn't he use somesthing less similar? It equally\nskims close \"Megatherium\", the name for the prehistoric giant sloth of the\nregion, and whose latter-day counterpart appears in the Well of Orchids.\nSloth biographies?\n\nOr it could refer these, equally colorful fellows:\n\nhttp://www.150.si.edu/chap3/club.htm\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2EC96F.9080804@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T05:23:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 10:24 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\n\"Megatherian\" is not Wolfe's coinage. It's in the OED. It is a simple\nvariant of the same word used to describe the extinct sloths, used in\nthe same way: \"great beast.\"\n\nWhat does \"megatherian\" mean in the New Sun? It refers to the great\nbeasts Abaia, Erebus, Scylla, Arioch, et al. (If they are the size of\nmountains, what bioengineered animal would warrant \"mega-\"?) There are\nsorcerers on Urth, and perhaps their power does come from the\nmegatherians. I doubt that the mentioned book is a parallel to\nGodwin's Lives of the Necromancers, however. To think it so would\nrequire making a specific inference from Crowley's silliness, and I\nsee no reason to do that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still don't see it as necessarily hinging on Crowley's anything.\n\nHow do you address the \"lives\" portion? Like this?\n\nhttp://www.neilgaiman.com/p/Cool_Stuff/Short_Stories/I_Cthulhu" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2F25B1.2060200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-03T11:57:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why couldn't it be a joke?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\n\"Megatherian\" is not Wolfe's coinage. It's in the OED. It is a simple\nvariant of the same word used to describe the extinct sloths, used in\nthe same way: \"great beast.\"\n\nWhat does \"megatherian\" mean in the New Sun? It refers to the great\nbeasts Abaia, Erebus, Scylla, Arioch, et al. (If they are the size of\nmountains, what bioengineered animal would warrant \"mega-\"?) There are\nsorcerers on Urth, and perhaps their power does come from the\nmegatherians. I doubt that the mentioned book is a parallel to\nGodwin's Lives of the Necromancers, however. To think it so would\nrequire making a specific inference from Crowley's silliness, and I\nsee no reason to do that.\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/2/2010 5:05 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As I understand it, Crowley added \"mega\" to the word \"therion,\" which\ndoes not appear with that modifier in the Apocalypse, to describe\nhimself. I find it dubious that Wolfe would rely on a term used by an\nidiosyncratic megalomaniac, when the more literal description fits the\ntext so much more clearly.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean. \"Megatherians\" is in the text. If \"megatherion\"\nis somehow tainted, why wouldn't he use somesthing less similar? It equally\nskims close \"Megatherium\", the name for the prehistoric giant sloth of the\nregion, and whose latter-day counterpart appears in the Well of Orchids.\nSloth biographies?\n\nOr it could refer these, equally colorful fellows:\n\nhttp://www.150.si.edu/chap3/club.htm\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T16:53:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2EC96F.9080804@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI still don't see it as necessarily hinging on Crowley's anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible that I don't understand what you're arguing, then. I\nthought it went something like this: Crowley was a magician. Crowley\ncalled himself the \"megatherion,\" his own coinage for the Beast of\nRevelation. There are magicians in BoTNS.* Therefore, the Lives of the\nSeventeen Megatherians likely refers to similar self-styled \"great\nbeasts\" who were magicians rather than to the powers in the sea.\n\nThis argument, if I've reproduced it correctly, goes wrong by\noverestimating the likely relevance of the first two steps, or,\nperhaps, by assuming a broader context for the second step than it in\nfact has.\n\nIf you're also suggesting, as I think you might be, that a title\nmodeled on Plutarch or Vasari would be inappropriate for still-living\nbeasts and would be better applied to their vassals, perhaps the Group\nof Seventeen, who might well be thought of as magicians, that's one\nthing. I don't see why they would die, either, though. The title would\nbe appropriate if they change while growing as much as I had earlier\nassumed, though.\n\n*Probably not really, though. Severian's suggestible, and it's\ndirectly stated that the Ascians and others are controlled by\nthoughts. Typhon's oath seems to be an incipient bit of mind-control\nin the same way that the duel with the magician is, or at least\nSeverian perceives it that way; but it's difficult to ascribe this to\nmagic or even charisma." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2F757C.9010502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-03T17:38:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, the argument could be purely literary. Anybody NOT heard of the \n\"Lives of the Saints\"?\n\nIt's not much of a stretch to combine that with an interesting coinage \nfor the Beast of Revelation, whatever the source, in a novel about the \ndestruction of the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nOn Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still don't see it as necessarily hinging on Crowley's anything.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible that I don't understand what you're arguing, then. I\nthought it went something like this: Crowley was a magician. Crowley\ncalled himself the \"megatherion,\" his own coinage for the Beast of\nRevelation. There are magicians in BoTNS.* Therefore, the Lives of the\nSeventeen Megatherians likely refers to similar self-styled \"great\nbeasts\" who were magicians rather than to the powers in the sea.\n\nThis argument, if I've reproduced it correctly, goes wrong by\noverestimating the likely relevance of the first two steps, or,\nperhaps, by assuming a broader context for the second step than it in\nfact has.\n\nIf you're also suggesting, as I think you might be, that a title\nmodeled on Plutarch or Vasari would be inappropriate for still-living\nbeasts and would be better applied to their vassals, perhaps the Group\nof Seventeen, who might well be thought of as magicians, that's one\nthing. I don't see why they would die, either, though. The title would\nbe appropriate if they change while growing as much as I had earlier\nassumed, though.\n\n*Probably not really, though. Severian's suggestible, and it's\ndirectly stated that the Ascians and others are controlled by\nthoughts. Typhon's oath seems to be an incipient bit of mind-control\nin the same way that the duel with the magician is, or at least\nSeverian perceives it that way; but it's difficult to ascribe this to\nmagic or even charisma.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<133B71304FEE487FB3D49E619C43A33A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T17:59:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jonathan Goodwin\" \nIf you're also suggesting, as I think you might be, that a title\nmodeled on Plutarch or Vasari would be inappropriate for still-living\nbeasts and would be better applied to their vassals, perhaps the Group\nof Seventeen, who might well be thought of as magicians, that's one\nthing. I don't see why they would die, either, though. The title would\nbe appropriate if they change while growing as much as I had earlier\nassumed, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Group of Severnteen' seems more like the self=selected name of a communist \ncadre to me.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T18:26:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<4C2F757C.9010502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is too much a stretch. If Crowley had called himself\n\"megarutabaga,\" and Wolfe reproduced it, then yes. But \"megatherian\"\nfits with the book's linguistic pattern (use of extinct animal names)\nand context (actual great beasts, significant plot drivers) too\nclearly to reach back for a dubious allusion this way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOr, the argument could be purely literary. Anybody NOT heard of the \"Lives\nof the Saints\"?\n\nIt's not much of a stretch to combine that with an interesting coinage for\nthe Beast of Revelation, whatever the source, in a novel about the\ndestruction of the world.\n\nJonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I still don't see it as necessarily hinging on Crowley's anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's possible that I don't understand what you're arguing, then. I\nthought it went something like this: Crowley was a magician. Crowley\ncalled himself the \"megatherion,\" his own coinage for the Beast of\nRevelation. There are magicians in BoTNS.* Therefore, the Lives of the\nSeventeen Megatherians likely refers to similar self-styled \"great\nbeasts\" who were magicians rather than to the powers in the sea.\n\nThis argument, if I've reproduced it correctly, goes wrong by\noverestimating the likely relevance of the first two steps, or,\nperhaps, by assuming a broader context for the second step than it in\nfact has.\n\nIf you're also suggesting, as I think you might be, that a title\nmodeled on Plutarch or Vasari would be inappropriate for still-living\nbeasts and would be better applied to their vassals, perhaps the Group\nof Seventeen, who might well be thought of as magicians, that's one\nthing. I don't see why they would die, either, though. The title would\nbe appropriate if they change while growing as much as I had earlier\nassumed, though.\n\n*Probably not really, though. Severian's suggestible, and it's\ndirectly stated that the Ascians and others are controlled by\nthoughts. Typhon's oath seems to be an incipient bit of mind-control\nin the same way that the duel with the magician is, or at least\nSeverian perceives it that way; but it's difficult to ascribe this to\nmagic or even charisma.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2F8821.2050408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-03T18:57:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand. You're right about \"megatherian\" and the linguistic \npattern it fits. But what's your point otherwise?\n\nDo you think Wolfe didn't know someone had come up with a similar term \nfor the Great Beast? It's possible, but who really cares---at very \nleast, they were doing the same thing. If he did know---and the man \nknows more than I do---it doesn't mean Wolfe imitated Crowley: it just \nmeans that words have resonance.\n\nIs it possible to say \"The Lives of the Daemons\" and not invoke \"The \nLives of the Saints\"? The thing about the linguistic pattern you note is \nthat it depends on those very resonances.\n\nAll books are made of other books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nIt is too much a stretch. If Crowley had called himself\n\"megarutabaga,\" and Wolfe reproduced it, then yes. But \"megatherian\"\nfits with the book's linguistic pattern (use of extinct animal names)\nand context (actual great beasts, significant plot drivers) too\nclearly to reach back for a dubious allusion this way.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or, the argument could be purely literary. Anybody NOT heard of the \"Lives\nof the Saints\"?\n\nIt's not much of a stretch to combine that with an interesting coinage for\nthe Beast of Revelation, whatever the source, in a novel about the\ndestruction of the world.\n\nJonathan Goodwin wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I still don't see it as necessarily hinging on Crowley's anything.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's possible that I don't understand what you're arguing, then. I\nthought it went something like this: Crowley was a magician. Crowley\ncalled himself the \"megatherion,\" his own coinage for the Beast of\nRevelation. There are magicians in BoTNS.* Therefore, the Lives of the\nSeventeen Megatherians likely refers to similar self-styled \"great\nbeasts\" who were magicians rather than to the powers in the sea.\n\nThis argument, if I've reproduced it correctly, goes wrong by\noverestimating the likely relevance of the first two steps, or,\nperhaps, by assuming a broader context for the second step than it in\nfact has.\n\nIf you're also suggesting, as I think you might be, that a title\nmodeled on Plutarch or Vasari would be inappropriate for still-living\nbeasts and would be better applied to their vassals, perhaps the Group\nof Seventeen, who might well be thought of as magicians, that's one\nthing. I don't see why they would die, either, though. The title would\nbe appropriate if they change while growing as much as I had earlier\nassumed, though.\n\n*Probably not really, though. Severian's suggestible, and it's\ndirectly stated that the Ascians and others are controlled by\nthoughts. Typhon's oath seems to be an incipient bit of mind-control\nin the same way that the duel with the magician is, or at least\nSeverian perceives it that way; but it's difficult to ascribe this to\nmagic or even charisma.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<913AE74CEFC14B18844618335D1D1A8E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T19:51:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nJonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember this. Is it in reference to megatherians? My vague memory\nis that might refer to creatures like the alzabo; but that could surely be\nfaulty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so eitrher. The alzabo was brought to Urth \"as many other \nthings,for the use and benefit of Man\" [quoting from memory]. All I know of \nthe undersea monsters, if they are indeed the Megatherians, of which I am \nnot certain, is the story of the beans.\n\nI assume this beans story to have some basis in truth, but it may be \nhistorically twisted or even metaphorical. Hmm... could Erebus/Abaia be \nsome kind of feminist revenge on the race of Men, as the story might \nsuggest? Their only acolyhes we meet are female, and we are not really told \nthe gender of the giant monsters, even if we tend to assume them male. [Nor \nare any serious hints given about their sexual proclivities, but after the \nWizard Knight, I am inclined to feel that this may be for the best.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T20:25:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<913AE74CEFC14B18844618335D1D1A8E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why does the woman with the black beans story refer to the monsters\nunder the sea? Because she wished to be obeyed, and they wish to be\nobeyed? Was she one, and divided by such as Typhon (who, remember,\ndoes not fear them), and now is many? Were the beans the seeds from\nwhich the monsters grew? (I've always assumed that the black beans\nwere a metaphor for the black hole devouring the sun.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't remember this. Is it in reference to megatherians? My vague memory\nis that might refer to creatures like the alzabo; but that could surely be\nfaulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so eitrher. “The alzabo was brought to Urth \"as many other\nthings,for the use and benefit of Man\" [quoting from memory]. All I know of\nthe undersea monsters, if they are indeed the Megatherians, of which I am\nnot certain, is the story of the beans.\n\nI assume this beans story to have some basis in truth, but it may be\nhistorically twisted or even metaphorical. ?Hmm... could Erebus/Abaia be\nsome kind of feminist revenge on the race of Men, as the story might\nsuggest” ?Their only acolyhes we meet are female, and we are not really told\nthe gender of the giant monsters, even if we tend to assume them male. ?[Nor\nare any serious hints given about their sexual proclivities, but after the\nWizard Knight, I am inclined to feel that this may be for the best.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T23:31:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<913AE74CEFC14B18844618335D1D1A8E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I first read *Shadow*, it seemed obvious to me that Jonas's tale of the\nbeans referred to the origins of Abaia and the other monsters in the sea:\n \"she displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that unless she\nwere obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to the\nworld.\" (Shadow, ch. XXXV)\n\nHowever, others readers don't see this and so it must not be so obvious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \n\n\n Jonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't remember this. Is it in reference to megatherians? My vague memory\nis that might refer to creatures like the alzabo; but that could surely be\nfaulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so eitrher. The alzabo was brought to Urth \"as many other\nthings,for the use and benefit of Man\" [quoting from memory]. All I know of\nthe undersea monsters, if they are indeed the Megatherians, of which I am\nnot certain, is the story of the beans.\n\nI assume this beans story to have some basis in truth, but it may be\nhistorically twisted or even metaphorical. Hmm... could Erebus/Abaia be\nsome kind of feminist revenge on the race of Men, as the story might\nsuggest? Their only acolyhes we meet are female, and we are not really told\nthe gender of the giant monsters, even if we tend to assume them male. [Nor\nare any serious hints given about their sexual proclivities, but after the\nWizard Knight, I am inclined to feel that this may be for the best.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T00:23:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I''ve always wondered. Do you guys think Erebus and Abaia actually exist, or\nare they perhaps some kind of boogeymen like the Green Knight dreamed up to\ninstill fear in the land dwellers? They never actually come into the story,\nand the logistics of something of their size existing on Earth are rather\nhard to grasp. Even living entirely in water, they would be subject to the\nlaws of gravity as we know them. Gravity on Earth would greatly restrict\ntheir movements and cause the blood pressure needed to keep all their cells\nnourished with necessary oxygen\nto be astronomical. For these reasons, I've always wondered if Wolfe ever\nintended them to be legitimate characters in the story at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nWhen I first read *Shadow*, it seemed obvious to me that Jonas's tale of\nthe beans referred to the origins of Abaia and the other monsters in the\nsea: \"she displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that\nunless she were obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to\nthe world.\" (Shadow, ch. XXXV)\n\nHowever, others readers don't see this and so it must not be so obvious.\n\n\n On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n\n\n Jonas tells Severian that they were brought to Earth, possibly in the\nzoetic tower, to replace the extinct fauna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't remember this. Is it in reference to megatherians? My vague\nmemory\nis that might refer to creatures like the alzabo; but that could surely\nbe\nfaulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so eitrher. The alzabo was brought to Urth \"as many other\nthings,for the use and benefit of Man\" [quoting from memory]. All I know of\nthe undersea monsters, if they are indeed the Megatherians, of which I am\nnot certain, is the story of the beans.\n\nI assume this beans story to have some basis in truth, but it may be\nhistorically twisted or even metaphorical. Hmm... could Erebus/Abaia be\nsome kind of feminist revenge on the race of Men, as the story might\nsuggest? Their only acolyhes we meet are female, and we are not really told\nthe gender of the giant monsters, even if we tend to assume them male. [Nor\nare any serious hints given about their sexual proclivities, but after the\nWizard Knight, I am inclined to feel that this may be for the best.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T03:36:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we could try to count the mentioned Great Beasts, see if\nthey add up to 17. Abaia, Erebus, Arioch, Scylla, Ouroboros, \nKraken,... can we come up with 11 more? Not without debate, I'm sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always wondered. Do you guys think Erebus and Abaia actually\nexist, or are they perhaps some kind of boogeymen.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think they exist. There is the deep voice coming up from Gyoll\nbeneath the ship. There is the underground giant something that\nscares the man-apes of the cave. Moreover, The Mother, living beneath\nBlue's ocean, would seem to be a more specifically described version\nof such great monstrosities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Group of Severnteen' seems more like the self=selected name of a communist \ncadre to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree but why can't they be both? We are given such graphic views of \nTzadkiel changing shape and pinching off smaller versions of him/herself in \nUotNS. I don't think it is unreasonable to guess that Wolfe included these\ngraphic views to help explain to us what might have been going on back on\nUrth in the previous 4 books among the fallen versions of Tzadkiel.\n \nThe Communists, in their heyday, were supposed to be godless atheists but I\nthink many would agree they were forced to invent their own false gods for \ntheir people to worship. Book of the New Sun is a Cold War-written story and\nshining light on the false gods of communism could have been a part of Wolfe's\nintention. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<69A85705750E46298772C6CD45E9215A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-04T09:33:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Milton Jackson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I''ve always wondered. Do you guys think Erebus and Abaia actually exist, or are they perhaps some kind of boogeymen like the Green Knight dreamed up to instill fear in the land dwellers? They never actually come into the story, and the logistics of something of their size existing on Earth are rather hard to grasp. Even living entirely in water, they would be subject to the laws of gravity as we know them. Gravity on Earth would greatly restrict their movements and cause the blood pressure needed to keep all their cells nourished with necessary oxygen" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to be astronomical. For these reasons, I've always wondered if Wolfe ever intended them to be legitimate characters in the story at all. \n\nI don't see any real reason to disbelieve it. Typhon confirms their existence, as someone else does (the Autarch or Jonas, I'm not sure which) and one of them seems to control Ascia. Baldanders is an aspiring sea giant, and Juturna exists too. Perhaps Erebus and Abaia are not truly as large as mountains, but there are certainly large intelligent creatures in the sea.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T13:50:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "<69A85705750E46298772C6CD45E9215A@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, i completely agree about the existence of large intelligent creatures\nunder the sea. baldanders and Juturna confirm that just by their existence.\n(As an aside, I like the fact that Wolfe acknowledged a human the size of a\nsauropod dinosaur or a whale could only exist in the water.) Anyway,\nwondering if Erebus and Abai actually exist was just idl speculation on my\npart. Other characters do confirm their existennce, but the fact that Wolfe\nnever brings even the shadow of one into the story and describes them as\nbeing of a size that, under the stresses of Earth's gravity, would be\nproblematic (thoguh as you note, this could be a hyperbolic description) at\nbest has caused me to speculate if they might not be some kind of Wizard of\nOz-style distractions. You're right though. Wolfe probably intends Erebus\nand Abaia to actually exist in the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:33 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n *From:* Milton Jackson \n >I''ve always wondered. Do you guys think Erebus and Abaia actually\nexist, or are they perhaps some kind of boogeymen like the Green Knight\ndreamed up to instill fear in the land dwellers? They never actually come\ninto the story, and the logistics of something of their size existing on\nEarth are rather hard to grasp. Even living entirely in water, they would be\nsubject to the laws of gravity as we know them. Gravity on Earth would\ngreatly restrict their movements and cause the blood pressure needed to keep\nall their cells nourished with necessary oxygen\nto be astronomical. For these reasons, I've always wondered if Wolfe ever\nintended them to be legitimate characters in the story at all.\n\nI don't see any real reason to disbelieve it. Typhon confirms their\nexistence, as someone else does (the Autarch or Jonas, I'm not sure\nwhich) and one of them seems to control Ascia. Baldanders is an aspiring\nsea giant, and Juturna exists too. Perhaps Erebus and Abaia are not truly\nas large as mountains, but there are certainly large intelligent creatures\nin the sea.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30934C.9060800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T13:57:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lives of the Great Beasts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They certainly do have the effects and functions of real characters. But \nI was serious when I said I think of them as Lovecraftian horrors. They \nlurk beyond the edge of the stage, formless and horrible. To give them \nprecise form would be to render them ordinary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Milton Jackson wrote:\nOh, i completely agree about the existence of large intelligent \ncreatures under the sea. baldanders and Juturna confirm that just by \ntheir existence. (As an aside, I like the fact that Wolfe acknowledged \na human the size of a sauropod dinosaur or a whale could only exist in \nthe water.) Anyway, wondering if Erebus and Abai actually exist was \njust idl speculation on my part. Other characters do confirm their \nexistennce, but the fact that Wolfe never brings even the shadow of \none into the story and describes them as being of a size that, under \nthe stresses of Earth's gravity, would be problematic (thoguh as you \nnote, this could be a hyperbolic description) at best has caused me to \nspeculate if they might not be some kind of Wizard of Oz-style \ndistractions. You're right though. Wolfe probably intends Erebus and \nAbaia to actually exist in the story.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:33 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n *From:* Milton Jackson \n >I''ve always wondered. Do you guys think Erebus and Abaia\n actually exist, or are they perhaps some kind of boogeymen like\n the Green Knight dreamed up to instill fear in the land dwellers?\n They never actually come into the story, and the logistics of\n something of their size existing on Earth are rather hard to\n grasp. Even living entirely in water, they would be subject to the\n laws of gravity as we know them. Gravity on Earth would greatly\n restrict their movements and cause the blood pressure needed to\n keep all their cells nourished with necessary oxygen\n to be astronomical. For these reasons, I've always wondered\n if Wolfe ever intended them to be legitimate characters in the\n story at all. \n \n I don't see any real reason to disbelieve it. Typhon confirms\n their existence, as someone else does (the Autarch or Jonas, I'm\n not sure which) and one of them seems to control Ascia. \n Baldanders is an aspiring sea giant, and Juturna exists too. \n Perhaps Erebus and Abaia are not truly as large as mountains, but\n there are certainly large intelligent creatures in the sea.\n \n - Gerry Quinn\n . \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] } ] }