{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5649", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5649, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 71, Issue 48", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-07-07T16:13:13+00:00", "last": "2010-07-08T04:18:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim O'Donnell", "address": "timodonn at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 71, Issue 48", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n\nI'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the\ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what?\nWhat happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is\nenabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't\ngrasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered\nthis so far.\n\n\n_____________\n\n\nWell, in the case of Inire, it depends on how much time travelling influence\nouter elements have had on Severian's life and specifically the difference\nbetween Sev1 (not optimised) and Sev2 (optimised).\n\nWas Sev1 almost but not quite the candidate for New Sun in which case he\nonly needed a little gentle prodding or was he way off in which case he\nneeded quite a lot of help?\n\nIf he was close to being the New Sun then we can theorise that appearances\nby Inire are moments where Sev1 needed a little push perhaps and Inire wants\nto be sure that these moments occur.\n\nIf the second option then do we believe that the forces of entropy are also\ninterfering with Severian's progress in which case Inire's presence may be\nto ward off such negative influence?\n\nFar from having a single reading of these books (which I have reread many\ntimes now) I value the variety of interpretations that can be extracted from\nreadings and rereadings.\n\nI don't want to go off topic but has anyone seen the film Primer? If so\nthey will know that a key scene is the bench scene, multiple viewings of the\nfilm have convinced me that there is no correct reading of this scene. I\ndon't want to say more as we are getting into spoiler territory but I feel\nthe same way about Wolfe - to reduce the books to a single correct reading\nis to cast aside the wonderful multiplicity of interpretations one can find\nwithin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:08 PM, wrote:\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (Adam Thornton)\n 2. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (John Watkins)\n 3. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (John Watkins)\n 4. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (entonio at gmail.com)\n 5. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (Ryan Dunn)\n 6. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (Ant?nio Pedro Marques)\n 7. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind (brunians at brunians.org)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:17:46 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by Rudesind\nMessage-ID: <4C347E7A.7030700 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOn 07/07/2010 08:09 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good insights, Lee.\n\nThe problem with this list is that there are a certain number of pedants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the....\n\noh, never mind.\n\nAlso, see \"The House of Asterion.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:48:10 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by Rudesind\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand: \"[Old Odilo saw] Father Inire bent nearly double, like\na\ngnome in a nursery book, with no more nose than an alouatte\" ('The Cat')" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to me to settle the matter. Rudesind is not Inire--they have\nvery different physical appearances and no evidence for them being one and\nthe same besides physical appearances has been presented." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: <\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100707/72d9c23b/attachment-0001.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:53:58 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned\n by Rudesind\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Father Inire is an alien. Hethor was a sailor on an\ninterstellar/universal\nspaceship. Both show suggestions of an unhealthy attraction to young\nhuman\nwomen.\nShould we connect these two characters based on that and the mirror\nconnection?\nOr should we not connect them because it disrupts our image of Father\nInire\nand\ndoesn't fit with the story we know and love?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I thought we'd decided that Hethor's attraction is to sex\ndolls/robots, but that he might possibly settle for the right kind of human\nwoman (maybe one who role-plays as a sex doll). As for Inire, it's not\nclear to me that his fondness for little girls is a sexual interest at all\n(or even that he is, properly speaking, capable of such sexual interest)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FWIW I find much of Greek mythology to have a similar weird\nunderstructure.\nWas Zeus\nthe mighty, heroic god that I (and Gene Wolfe?) admired as a child, who\ndefeated the\nmonstrous Titans, including Typhon, and ruled among the clouds with\nfatherly grace?\nOr was he a creepy guy who killed his father and married his sister and\nspent his\nspare time using his power to seduce/rape young girls and boys like\nEuropa\nand\nGanymede? He is both, right? But I had to mature as a reader and as a\nperson before\nI could see both sides.\n\nFor me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There is\na\nmain\nstructure and a second, secret house which has been built co-extensively\nwithin it.\nAs the Secret House was constructed by Father Inire, I find it\nappropriate\nto think\nthe secret structure of BotNS is centered on that character. If you don't\nthink there\nare undiscovered mysteries in the story or don't find the search\nenjoyable\nI can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years\nenjoying\nit on that\nlevel alone. But I always felt there was more.\n\n\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34ADD5.6010905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T16:39:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim O'Donnell wrote (07-07-2010 17:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the\ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then\nwhat? What happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the\nstory is enabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it\nthat we don't grasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way?\nNo one has answered this so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, in the case of Inire, it depends on how much time travelling\ninfluence outer elements have had on Severian's life and specifically\nthe difference between Sev1 (not optimised) and Sev2 (optimised). Was\nSev1 almost but not quite the candidate for New Sun in which case he\nonly needed a little gentle prodding or was he way off in which case he\nneeded quite a lot of help? If he was close to being the New Sun then we\ncan theorise that appearances by Inire are moments where Sev1 needed a\nlittle push perhaps and Inire wants to be sure that these moments occur.\nIf the second option then do we believe that the forces of entropy are\nalso interfering with Severian's progress in which case Inire's presence\nmay be to ward off such negative influence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I don't see is how Rudesind and other characters being FI in disguise\nhas much to do with any of those questions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Far from having a single reading of these books (which I have reread\nmany times now) I value the variety of interpretations that can be\nextracted from readings and rereadings. I don't want to go off topic but\nhas anyone seen the film Primer? If so they will know that a key scene\nis the bench scene, multiple viewings of the film have convinced me that\nthere is no correct reading of this scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes - the pervasive idea that there must be correct readings of a given \nsituation is wrong. Sometimes several readings are correct. Sometimes non is \n(rarer, but happens).\n\nThanks for the movie tip." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to say more as we are getting into spoiler territory but I\nfeel the same way about Wolfe - to reduce the books to a single correct\nreading is to cast aside the wonderful multiplicity of interpretations\none can find within." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that is precisely my beef with the drive to reduce characters to some \nspecific trait that doesn't mean anything by itself.\n\n- Agia must be a robot because blablabla - but at a certain point, what is \nthe relevance of her precise nature?\n\n- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what does \nthat gain us?\n\nIf there is a common theme in the GW works I've read so far - I'm not \nfortunate enough to have done significant rereading already - is how \ncharacters break free from their native, starting conditions. Trying to pin \ndown exactly what those conditions are, and trying to come up with (or \noutright invent) a definite answer, as if it had in itself a deep \nsignificance, is in my view misguided - and harmful when it blinds the mind \nto the rest. Their precise nature may be explanative of something else, but \nI just can't see that it can be an interesting fact all by itself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<576549.3598.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:23:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<4C34ADD5.6010905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what does that gain us?\"\nNo one has made that argument, as far as I can tell\nAs for the (ultimately, failed) theory I built concerning Agia, I made the narrative implications very clear. That was indeed the point of the exercise---to take the perceived possibility of a connection between Agia and the doll and test it against the principle that it must add meaning. But it required making up too much stuff---more than it explained---which is a different principle entirely.\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 12:39 PM\n\nTim O'Donnell wrote (07-07-2010 17:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that is precisely my beef with the drive to reduce characters to some specific trait that doesn't mean anything by itself.\n\n- Agia must be a robot because blablabla - but at a certain point, what is the relevance of her precise nature?\n\n- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what does that gain us?\n\nIf there is a common theme in the GW works I've read so far - I'm not fortunate enough to have done significant rereading already - is how characters break free from their native, starting conditions. Trying to pin down exactly what those conditions are, and trying to come up with (or outright invent) a definite answer, as if it had in itself a deep significance, is in my view misguided - and harmful when it blinds the mind to the rest. Their precise nature may be explanative of something else, but I just can't see that it can be an interesting fact all by itself.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:25:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<576549.3598.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n \"\n\nAs for the (ultimately, failed) theory I built concerning Agia, I made the\nnarrative implications very clear. That was indeed the point of the\nexercise---to take the perceived possibility of a connection between Agia\nand the doll and test it against the principle that it must add meaning. But\nit required making up too much stuff---more than it explained---which is a\ndifferent principle entirely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it at least gave me the insight that the \"things\" Agia \"does\" for\nHethor probably involve lying very, very still...(shudder)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 12:39 PM\n\n Tim O'Donnell wrote (07-07-2010 17:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n>>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that is precisely my beef with the drive to reduce characters to some\nspecific trait that doesn't mean anything by itself.\n\n- Agia must be a robot because blablabla - but at a certain point, what is\nthe relevance of her precise nature?\n\n- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what does\nthat gain us?\n\nIf there is a common theme in the GW works I've read so far - I'm not\nfortunate enough to have done significant rereading already - is how\ncharacters break free from their native, starting conditions. Trying to pin\ndown exactly what those conditions are, and trying to come up with (or\noutright invent) a definite answer, as if it had in itself a deep\nsignificance, is in my view misguided - and harmful when it blinds the mind\nto the rest. Their precise nature may be explanative of something else, but\nI just can't see that it can be an interesting fact all by itself.\n_______________________________________________\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<884946.35843.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:27:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it wasn't a complete waste! ;)\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, John Watkins wrote:\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 1:25 PM\n\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\"\n\n\nAs for the (ultimately, failed) theory I built concerning Agia, I made the narrative implications very clear. That was indeed the point of the exercise---to take the perceived possibility of a connection between Agia and the doll and test it against the principle that it must add meaning. But it required making up too much stuff---more than it explained---which is a different principle entirely.\n\n\n\nActually, it at least gave me the insight that the \"things\" Agia \"does\" for Hethor probably involve lying very, very still...(shudder)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by Rudesind\n\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 12:39 PM\n\n\n\nTim O'Donnell wrote (07-07-2010 17:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that is precisely my beef with the drive to reduce characters to some specific trait that doesn't mean anything by itself.\n\n- Agia must be a robot because blablabla - but at a certain point, what is the relevance of her precise nature?\n\n\n- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what does that gain us?\n\nIf there is a common theme in the GW works I've read so far - I'm not fortunate enough to have done significant rereading already - is how characters break free from their native, starting conditions. Trying to pin down exactly what those conditions are, and trying to come up with (or outright invent) a definite answer, as if it had in itself a deep significance, is in my view misguided - and harmful when it blinds the mind to the rest. Their precise nature may be explanative of something else, but I just can't see that it can be an interesting fact all by itself.\n\n\n\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<654518148494fab97c63b8822deb3b75.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:08:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting insight.\n\nWhat is the source of it?\n\nAs far as I know there are three or four different kinds of pervert that\nHethor could be.\n\nMy source is ten years employment by clinicians treating sex offenders.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"\n\nAs for the (ultimately, failed) theory I built concerning Agia, I made\nthe\nnarrative implications very clear. That was indeed the point of the\nexercise---to take the perceived possibility of a connection between\nAgia\nand the doll and test it against the principle that it must add meaning.\nBut\nit required making up too much stuff---more than it explained---which is\na\ndifferent principle entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, it at least gave me the insight that the \"things\" Agia \"does\"\nfor\nHethor probably involve lying very, very still...(shudder)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On *Wed, 7/7/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 12:39 PM\n\n Tim O'Donnell wrote (07-07-2010 17:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\n\n>>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And that is precisely my beef with the drive to reduce characters to\nsome\nspecific trait that doesn't mean anything by itself.\n\n- Agia must be a robot because blablabla - but at a certain point, what\nis\nthe relevance of her precise nature?\n\n- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what\ndoes\nthat gain us?\n\nIf there is a common theme in the GW works I've read so far - I'm not\nfortunate enough to have done significant rereading already - is how\ncharacters break free from their native, starting conditions. Trying to\npin\ndown exactly what those conditions are, and trying to come up with (or\noutright invent) a definite answer, as if it had in itself a deep\nsignificance, is in my view misguided - and harmful when it blinds the\nmind\nto the rest. Their precise nature may be explanative of something else,\nbut\nI just can't see that it can be an interesting fact all by itself.\n_______________________________________________\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:09:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n Rudesind", "in_reply_to": "<884946.35843.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is seriously a matter of opinion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it wasn't a complete waste! ;)\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, John Watkins wrote:\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 1:25 PM\n\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:23 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF \nwrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\"\n\n\nAs for the (ultimately, failed) theory I built concerning Agia, I made the\nnarrative implications very clear. That was indeed the point of the\nexercise---to take the perceived possibility of a connection between Agia\nand the doll and test it against the principle that it must add meaning.\nBut it required making up too much stuff---more than it explained---which\nis a different principle entirely.\n\n\n\nActually, it at least gave me the insight that the \"things\" Agia \"does\"\nfor Hethor probably involve lying very, very still...(shudder)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\nRudesind" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C6A7.60608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:25:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned by\n\tRudesind", "in_reply_to": "<576549.3598.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote (07-07-2010 18:23):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"- Rudesind must be FI in disguise because Fechin is a ranga - but what\ndoes that gain us?\"\n\nNo one has made that argument, as far as I can tell" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was satyrising it, but aside from the straightness and use of slang it's \nthe one reliable piece of evidence that has been aduced." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T04:18:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 71, Issue 48", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim O'Donnell- Far from having a single reading of these books (which I have reread many\ntimes now) I value the variety of interpretations that can be extracted from\nreadings and rereadings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can agree with this. I'll further suggest that in reading this work of science fiction, \nwe have a spectrum of preferences ranging from the more scientific to the more \nfiction/artistic. Some prefer to understand this story with the tools of science- \nobjective observation of the \"facts\" and parsimony (Occam) in interpretation. Others \nenjoy artistic interpretation which relies on in-depth cultural understanding and \nintuitive leaps of faith. Credit to Gene wolfe for creating literature which appeals \nto both ends of the spectrum and those in between.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }