{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5650", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5650, "subject": "The Secret House Within BotNS", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-07-07T17:37:44+00:00", "last": "2010-07-08T11:21:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T17:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A.P. Marques- I'll have to ask yet again - clues to *what*, please? IF some of the \ncharacters that appear throughout the book are Inire in disguise, then what? \nWhat happens? What doors open? What new understanding of the story is \nenabled? What's the net worth of such a knowledge? What is it that we don't \ngrasp about the book that we'd begin to grasp that way? No one has answered \nthis so far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAntonio, I feel your pain. For the longest time I could see all these clues and \nhints of clues but I had no idea what Wolfe was really trying to get at. Perhaps\nI still don't, but I think I have some idea.\n \nIt may be that Gene Wolfe is just light years smarter than anyone else. Or perhaps, \nas he describes Agia, he is just better at making puzzles for others than at solving\nthem. But I think he is an extremely intelligent, learned guy who spent years trapped\nin an agricultural/mechanical college, in the army, in a boring engineering job with\nall sorts of intense thoughts about religion and philosophy and history and science all\nboiling around in his brain with no outlet.\n \nSo, in broadest terms, I think that's the Secret House of BotNS, a mixture of \nautobiography and a desire to be understood by a guy so smart he is really hard to\nunderstand. I think there are some aspects woven within the story which are inspired\nby details of Gene Wolfe's personal life. Some of these will be accessible to us via\nonline biographies but others will not. (actually I think Horn's relationship with \nNettle and his sons comes closest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary\nand rosemary is a member of the nettle family).\n \nMore specifically I agree with Tim, Ryan and others (esp. Peter Wright) that much of the\nsub-text is about how a character such as Severian is prodded and pushed by secret forces\nmuch greater and more knowledgeable than he is to accomplish various supernatural goals.\nThis concept is interesting in relation to all of humanity, to government and politics, \nto Jesus, to Gene Wolfe and his own life and even perhaps the reader and his/her own life.\n \nEven more specifically, I think Gene Wolfe is trying to address the question of the \npurpose of the pagan world in regard to Christianity. What purpose did God have in leaving\nhumanity to suffer through the pre-Christ, pre-Moses ages where petty gods and monsters\njerked us around? Why did God make angels knowing some of them would fall. Why did he put\nAdam and Eve (Meschia and Meschianne) in Eden, knowing they'd succumb to temptation? Why\ndid he make earth knowing he'd have to cleanse it with a Flood, etc. \n \nWell, perhaps the exact \"why\" is beyond us. But BotNS might be Wolfe's answer as to \"how\",\ni.e. God uses agents, sometimes human, sometimes evil, sometimes superhuman, to achieve His \nultimate goals. And that's why we see so many shape-shifting, animalistic, human-mating\ngods and monsters in the mythology of ancient people. The process of corrupting then \ncleansing humanity through Floods and Christ and who knows what else in the future is a \nneccessary part of our spiritual development. (and perhaps other beings, as seen on Blue)\n \nFor me a story which goes beyond itself to address divine issues, issues for all humanity,\nand personal issues for author and reader is more enjoyable than a simple plot. And that is \nwhy trying to map out the Secret House of this story is worthwhile for me. Could I find\nso many secret, relevant, interesting connections in, say, Robinson Crusoe? I don't know. I\nhaven't tried, but I don't think so. I've read it many times but I never got the overwhelming\nsense that I was missing something as I did with BotNS. I know I am not alone in that feeling.\n \n(p.s.I am not religious myself, it is the religious mind of Gene Wolfe that I find so interesting). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34C16F.7010309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T18:03:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Lee,\n\nThanks for your exposition, I agree with much though not all of it, but it\naddresses a different question than the one I was asking. I'm empahtically\nnot dismissing that kind of approach. I'm calling for it to be purposeful.\n\nI think my reply earlier in the afternoon didn't make it to the list, so\nI'll just repeat it below:\n\nLee Berman :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, BotNS is built (NOT coincidentally) like House Absolute. There\nis a main structure and a second, secret house which has been built co-\nextensively within it. As the Secret House was constructed by Father\nInire, I find it appropriate to think the secret structure of BotNS is\ncentered on that character. If you don't think there are undiscovered\nmysteries in the story or don't find the search enjoyable I can\nunderstand that. The main story is really great and I spent years\nenjoying it on that level alone. But I always felt there was more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's not at all what I'm saying. Of course there are loadheaps of\ndots to connect. What I'm arguing against is their wanton connection\n- precisely because there is so much to work with. That's why I insist on\nresults: don't connect things because you believe they fulfill some pattern\n- patterns are a dime a dozen. Rather, connect them if they lead to novelty." } ] }, { "message_id": "<205531.83150.qm@smtp816.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:07:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:37 07/07/2010, Lee wrote:\n(actually I think Horn's relationship with Nettle and his sons comes \nclosest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary and \nrosemary is a member of the nettle family)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle \nfamily. It is a member of the mint family.\n\n(Which would suggest, if you accept this naming theory, that Wolfe's \ndepiction of his wife is more likely to be Maytera/General Mint than Nettle.)\n\nbest,\n\nMo " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34ED94.4010005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:11:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<205531.83150.qm@smtp816.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(actually I think Horn's relationship with Nettle and his sons comes \nclosest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary and \nrosemary is a member of the nettle family)\n\nJust on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle \nfamily. It is a member of the mint family. (Which would suggest, if \nyou accept this naming theory, that Wolfe's depiction of his wife is \nmore likely to be Maytera/General Mint than Nettle.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Rose!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:14:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<4C34ED94.4010005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n(actually I think Horn's relationship with Nettle and his sons comes\nclosest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary and rosemary is\na member of the nettle family)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle\nfamily. It is a member of the mint family. (Which would suggest, if you\naccept this naming theory, that Wolfe's depiction of his wife is more likely\nto be Maytera/General Mint than Nettle.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or Rose!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...this suggests that the \"naming theory\" is of limited value." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C34EE93.80609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:16:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<4C34ED94.4010005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (07-07-2010 22:11):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(actually I think Horn's relationship with Nettle and his sons comes\nclosest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary and\nrosemary is a member of the nettle family)\n\nJust on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle\nfamily. It is a member of the mint family. (Which would suggest, if\nyou accept this naming theory, that Wolfe's depiction of his wife is\nmore likely to be Maytera/General Mint than Nettle.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or Rose!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\nAm I the only one whose Silk's recoiling at the idea of being in the same \nroom as Rose was transferred to myself? (Awful grammar, I know, but I felt \nlike using it.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<805784.69701.qm@smtp823.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-07-07T21:24:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 22:14 07/07/2010, John wrote:\nOn Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, James Wynn \n<crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(actually I think Horn's relationship with Nettle and his sons \ncomes closest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary \nand rosemary is a member of the nettle family)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle \nfamily. It is a member of the mint family. (Which would suggest, if \nyou accept this naming theory, that Wolfe's depiction of his wife is \nmore likely to be Maytera/General Mint than Nettle.)\n\n\nOr Rose!\n\n ..this suggests that the \"naming theory\" is of limited value." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0fa14c76e403ec60c3f0c8453cecc736.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T22:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House Within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<205531.83150.qm@smtp816.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a psychoactive herb.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:37 07/07/2010, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(actually I think Horn's relationship with Nettle and his sons comes\nclosest to true autobiography- Mrs. Wolfe is named Rosemary and\nrosemary is a member of the nettle family)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle\nfamily. It is a member of the mint family.\n\n(Which would suggest, if you accept this naming theory, that Wolfe's\ndepiction of his wife is more likely to be Maytera/General Mint than\nNettle.)\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<0fa14c76e403ec60c3f0c8453cecc736.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar- Just on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle \nfamily. It is a member of the mint family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThank you for that correction Mo. I re-did the research and I was in error. \nRosemary and sweet/dead nettle are separate genuses (genii?) within the mint\nfamily and I got them conflated the first time checking. Ah well.\n \nI still get the feeling Horn and his family are semi-autobiographical. And when\nan author named Wolfe with wife Rosemary creates a city where men have \nanimal-derived names and women have plant-derived names it might not be\naccidental.\n \n \n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35B4C1.3050909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T11:21:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Secret House within BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (08-07-2010 04:53):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mo Holkar- Just on this botanical point, rosemary is not a member of the nettle\nfamily. It is a member of the mint family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you for that correction Mo. I re-did the research and I was in error.\nRosemary and sweet/dead nettle are separate genuses (genii?) within the mint\nfamily and I got them conflated the first time checking. Ah well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact rosemary, sweet/dead nettle, hedge nettle and the mints all belong \nto several genera of the Labiates. There is also a nettle in the spurge \nfamily. Besides the normal nettle which has a family of her own, as Mo said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still get the feeling Horn and his family are semi-autobiographical. And when\nan author named Wolfe with wife Rosemary creates a city where men have\nanimal-derived names and women have plant-derived names it might not be\naccidental." } ] } ] }