{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5653", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5653, "subject": "Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "messages": 176, "voices": 23, "first": "2010-07-09T00:35:10+00:00", "last": "2010-08-01T06:46:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T00:35:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Finally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging me.\nWhen I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good,\nit put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a\nPatrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some middle-Eastern sect.\nTzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as peacock-ish.\n\nAnyway, here he is, the Peacock Angel of the Yazidis:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus The Peacock Angel of the\nYazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis (\"the liar\"), except for\nthe Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the favored status of\nMan.\n\nWouldn't surprise me at all if Wolfe had this bird and the Yazidi's in mind.\n\n\nNo, I don't think that BOTNS is intended as a Yazidi gospel :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T00:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooh, this is excellent stuff. Thank you for this.\n\nSomeone like me (but smarter) should take this insight and run with it into\na full-on application of Melek Taus to other Wolfean demons. If Wolfe used\nthe figure once, did he use it again? If not, why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\nFinally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging me.\nWhen I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good,\nit put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a\nPatrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some middle-Eastern sect.\nTzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as peacock-ish.\n\nAnyway, here he is, the Peacock Angel of the Yazidis:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus The Peacock Angel of the\nYazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis (\"the liar\"), except for\nthe Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the favored status of\nMan.\n\nWouldn't surprise me at all if Wolfe had this bird and the Yazidi's in\nmind.\n\nNo, I don't think that BOTNS is intended as a Yazidi gospel :)\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T02:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:22 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nOoh, this is excellent stuff. Thank you for this.\n\nSomeone like me (but smarter) should take this insight and run with it into\na full-on application of Melek Taus to other Wolfean demons. If Wolfe used\nthe figure once, did he use it again? If not, why not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the way I see it: In the BOTNS, Wolfe shows how a young man, by no\nmeans inherently evil, is induced to do the will of (call it) Lucifer,\nworking on the young man's inclination to obey and disinclination to think\nclearly when afflicted by religiosity, with these propensities assisted by a\ncloud of meretricious gnostic-ish mumbo-jumbo which takes the place of \"true\nreligion\". The Lucifer figure is particularly evil in that he causes the\nyoung man himself to be responsible for the mumbo-jumbo, unwittingly.\n\nWolfe takes the reader on the same kind of journey as Sev. He sets up the\nform of the story to make it look like a tale about enlightenment and the\nprogression of a soul from lowest to highest, and what BOTNS/UOTNS shows is\nhow powerful such forms are. By the the end of UOTNS there is overwhelming\nevidence to make the enlightenment reading completely untenable on any\n\"objective\" grounds, but nevertheless for most readers it persists.\n\"Tzadkiel\" remains somehow the agent of some greater good, Sev has somehow\nearned his role of minor god to the remnants of destroyed Urth humanity, a\ngrand (unknown) plan progresses to a sanctified (but unkown) end.\n\nOn this view, BOTNS/UOTNS is a kind of demonstration of how people can\nbecome \"yazidis\" (to the extent that the term can be used to denote those\nwho beleive bad is good - no offence to actual Yazidis!).\n\nAnyway, if Wolfe was thinking along those lines & did make use of aspects of\nthe Melek Taus figure, I guess that use was pretty specific to the concerns\nof BOTNS/UOTNS. The closest figure I can think of in other works is The\nLowest God from W-K, but even though he may well be a de-winged angel, he\nfits a different \"error\" (ie \"lowest = highest\", rather than \"wrong\nhighest\")." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5468CF4DE0B74D4CBF1097F9822150AA@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T08:24:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Mr Thalassocrat " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe takes the reader on the same kind of journey as Sev. He sets up the form of the story to make it look like a tale about enlightenment and the progression of a soul from lowest to highest, and what BOTNS/UOTNS shows is how powerful such forms are. By the the end of UOTNS there is overwhelming evidence to make the enlightenment reading completely untenable on any \"objective\" grounds, but nevertheless for most readers it persists. \"Tzadkiel\" remains somehow the agent of some greater good, Sev has somehow earned his role of minor god to the remnants of destroyed Urth humanity, a grand (unknown) plan progresses to a sanctified (but unkown) end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one. One can certainly question whether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the sun counts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future of Master Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new life must be born in cataclysm?\n\nIt would, I think, be unfair to rely too much on the author's statements on his intention, but it seems to me that they support the conventional interpretation. Severian is 'a Christian figure' - compare to Silk, who is 'a good man in a bad religion'.\n\nBut here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the text: if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of The Outsider? And what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun? Vodalus? Who, Mr. Thallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T12:13:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<5468CF4DE0B74D4CBF1097F9822150AA@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nI remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one. One can certainly question\nwhether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the sun\ncounts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future of\nMaster Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new\nlife must be born in cataclysm?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of the\npopulation having been evacuated before the ice death, in his future.\nWhatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to die in\nSev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev at least try\nto make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " It would, I think, be unfair to rely too much on the author's statements\non his intention, but it seems to me that they support the conventional\ninterpretation. Severian is 'a Christian figure' - compare to Silk, who is\n'a good man in a bad religion'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't recall everything that Wolfe has said about this, but didn't he\nactually say that Sev is a member of the mystical body of Christ? (Or was\nthat something that he said to somebody, in addition to the Sev-as-Christian\ncomment?) Anyway, I can't understand Sev being a Christian, which presumably\nrequires one to believe in Christ?\n\nAs to being part of the mystical body of Christ, I am totally unqualified to\njudge what that actually means. But perhaps this sentence from the Mystici\nCorporis Christi is relevant: \"For the Church, the Bride of Christ, is one;\nand yet so vast is the love of the divine Spouse that it embraces in His\nBride the whole human race without exception.\" (\nhttp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html\nCh96)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the\ntext: if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of\nThe Outsider? And what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun?\nVodalus? Who, Mr. Thallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is indeed the big question. My answer is that LS/SS is a redemption of\nthe God-less world of BOTNS/UOTNS - in which neither side is \"Good\". I\nbelieve Sev's life after meeting SilkHorn will be very different than his\ncareer in BOTNS/UOTNS - as I've set out in posts here over the years. I\ndon't think anybody else has found this position very convincing, but I'm\nsticking with it :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T12:16:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\n On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one. One can certainly question\nwhether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the sun\ncounts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future of\nMaster Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new\nlife must be born in cataclysm?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of the\npopulation having been evacuated before the ice death, in his future.\nWhatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to die in\nSev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev at least try\nto make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, that may be unclear. \".. why didn't Sev at least try to make an\nevacuation happen ...\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "M.T.- When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good,\nit put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a\nPatrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some middle-Eastern sect.\nTzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as peacock-ish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was checking on this and found that Melek Taus is specifically associated with\nAzezel the fallen peacock angel. Similar name but distinct from the non-fallen\nTzadkiel. It looks like the Yazidis find him as redeemed from his fall and worthy\nof worship. But this redemption is not recognized by Judeo-Christianty\n(he is the demon from the Denzel Washington movie- Fallen. Worth seeing)\n\nAnyway, I think Peter Wright joins in your conclusion that there are no good guys\nin BotNS, certainly not among the powerful. However I think he interprets from\nthe perspective of an atheist/socialist so this is not surprising. I don't know\nyour own religious/political persuasions but I am pretty sure Gene Wolfe is not\nan atheist/socialist.\n\nThat's if Gene Wolfe's intentions are important here. They need not be. I do not\nthink Gene Wolfe's opinion of angels is more valid than Peter Wright's or yours\nfrom a human perspective. But as author of the worlds we are discussing, Wolfe's\nopinions may take on some exalted status, being those of The Creator, I suppose.\n\nThe \"real\" Tzadkiel is of the angelic order Hashmallim. But I suspect wolfe has\ncombined his description with another angelic order, the Cherubim. They have wings\nspangled with eyes and one of their duties is to defend the entrance to the Garden\nOf Eden. When Severian first sees Tzadkiel in the mirror-book, it happens because\nhe has requested to go to The Garden.\n\nRe-reading that section I notice that Severian recognizes that the winged being\nhe sees in the book is as big as an island. I feel confirmed in my guess that\nthe giant being Severian sees on the throne and captain's chair is a small piece of\na much larger being." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "G.Q.- But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the text:\nif your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of The Outsider?\nAnd what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun? Vodalus? Who, Mr.\nThallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the BotNS analog to The Outsider is The Increate. I am not the best religious\nphilosophy scholar but I think those who deeply consider the question end up coming\nto the conclusion that, while we humans are supposed to choose \"good\", God is\ninfintely above such conflict. In fact God/The Outsider/Increate uses both good\nand evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable divine goals.\n \nAs we read Long Sun we see The Outsider get promoted in Silk's mind from minor deity\nto top dog. However the \"truth\" is that The Outsider is far more than top dog, the \nboss of all gods. In fact he has created Pas and Scylla and Echidna and The Whorl\nand Blue and Green and Urth and uses them to accomplish His goals. Right?\n \n\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:31:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI think the BotNS analog to The Outsider is The Increate. I am not the best\nreligious\nphilosophy scholar but I think those who deeply consider the question end\nup coming\nto the conclusion that, while we humans are supposed to choose \"good\", God\nis\ninfintely above such conflict. In fact God/The Outsider/Increate uses both\ngood\nand evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable\ndivine goals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is one conclusion some people have drawn. Another is that \"good\" is a\nmeaningless concept except insofar as it is identified with God's will.\nI.e., the reason murder is wrong is that God disapproves of it, and if God\napproves of murder in a particular case it becomes good. A third is that\nGod is infinitely good--so good that He has the power to cultivate good from\nthe seeds of evil.\n\nThe first concept, the one you proffered, seems to me to be favored by those\nwho prefer a deanthropomorphised concept of God. The second seems to me to\nbe preferred by those who privilege God's authority, His status as sovereign\nof existence. The third is perhaps preferred by those who take it\nthat God's *legitimacy *as sovereign must depend on moral authority rather\nthan sheer power or status as creator.\n\nI will only note here that, as readers of texts which are themselves\ncreated, I think it is true that experientially we prefer the third\nalternative to the first. When Mr. Goodkind instructs me that his hero is\nmorally justified in all his actions, I do not take Mr. Goodkind's views to\nbe definitive of the question, even within his fictive universe. It may be\nthat this is due solely to the metafictive nature of in-fiction morality,\nbut maybe there's something else there too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:39:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Mr. Goodkind instructs me that his hero is\nmorally justified in all his actions, I do not take Mr. Goodkind's views to\nbe definitive of the question, even within his fictive universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing good has ever come from taking Goodkind seriously.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's a real-life demiurge. That's worth something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/10, Lane Haygood wrote:\nWhen Mr. Goodkind instructs me that his hero is\nmorally justified in all his actions, I do not take Mr. Goodkind's views\nto\nbe definitive of the question, even within his fictive universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nothing good has ever come from taking Goodkind seriously.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "M.T.- When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good,\nit put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a\nPatrick O'Brien novel?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's in TREASONS HARBOUR. \n\nBut it may be worth noting Malek Taus was Lovecraft's private epistolary title for his friend E Hoffman Price. \n\nWolfe might possibly have picked up on this, being an HPL reader and fan, but even if not it may amuse.\n\nCordially\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C373B68.3000506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T15:08:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is worth pursuing but I think there are a number of problems with it.\n\nIf Tzadkiel is honest, his intent is to renew the planet and give Humanity a \nnew chance. If there is an afterlife then drowning almost everyone isn't \nsuch a catastrophe as it might seem. The fact is that the world is in dire \nneed of moral cleansing, not only terraforming, and I don't see how you \nachieve the former without some global disaster that at once decimates the \npopulation and changes the natural environment. The new world will have a \nchance to be good.\n\nIf Tzadkiel is a liar, then I don't see what does he gain by destroying the \nworld. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness, but I don't find it \nconvincing that he would take all that trouble just to have a 5 minute \nmassacre sport. We tend to associate evil with selfishness, and to \nannihilate your potential servants makes little sense selfishly. And if the \nintent is to take pleasure in killing them, then a global drowning is \npossibly one of the least interesting methods - quick and clean. If otoh he \nwishes to wipe out Humanity for whatever reason, giving a renewed planet to \na reduced population seems to run counter to the objective.\n\nMoreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world, why not \njust do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't have that power all \nby himself, then whoever did have the power is calling the shots, not Tzakdiel.\n\nYou mention Severian could have asked for the population to be evacuated. \nWell, could the building of the Whorl have been done not out of fear that \nthe sun would die out, but that the flood could be irreparably deleterious? \nAnd where would you take all those wicked people, and how would you reform \nthem? If it were easy, what would a new Earth be needed for? In the dying \nearth future, my impression is that the population had been steadily \ndeclining for ages.\n\nDoes Severian not asking for an evacuation imply that he is evil as well? I \nsuppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's way of presenting \nthings that such a question doesn't even cross his mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T15:18:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C373B68.3000506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/9 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Tzadkiel is a liar, then I don't see what does he gain by destroying the\nworld. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness, but I don't find it\nconvincing that he would take all that trouble just to have a 5 minute\nmassacre sport. We tend to associate evil with selfishness, and to\nannihilate your potential servants makes little sense selfishly. And if the\nintent is to take pleasure in killing them, then a global drowning is\npossibly one of the least interesting methods - quick and clean. If otoh he\nwishes to wipe out Humanity for whatever reason, giving a renewed planet to\na reduced population seems to run counter to the objective.\n\nThis is actually pretty clear in the text, IMHO. The Hierogrammates are\ntrying to breed a new race of Hieros. Severian's task as epitome of Urth is\nto persuade Tzadkiel that the humans of Urth have the genetic materials\nneeded for potential future Hieros. The destruction of Urth is followed by\npartial repopulation by humans hand-picked by the Hierodules, presumably for\ntheir genetic materials." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This actually makes some sense of the family tree and incest preoccupations\nof the text, and of the monkey preoccupation--we know from the man-apes that\nthere are degraded, semi-ape humans (as well as humans who have probably\ninterbred with aliens of some kind, and humans who do really screwy things\nto their biology, like Baldanders.) In short, the purification of Urth by\nmassive slaughter makes perfect sense--Tzadkiel is wiping the bad crap out\nof a petri dish he's decided to keep using." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world, why not\njust do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't have that power all\nby himself, then whoever did have the power is calling the shots, not\nTzakdiel.\n\nI think this is a trickier question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Severian not asking for an evacuation imply that he is evil as well? I\nsuppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's way of presenting\nthings that such a question doesn't even cross his mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to fit, doesn't it? Severian is part of a cult-like order that\ntrained him to obey authority, in particular when that authority instructs\nhim to torture or kill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-09T15:19:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why does everybody have to die in this time line?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one. One can certainly question\nwhether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the\nsun\ncounts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future\nof\nMaster Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new\nlife must be born in cataclysm?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of\nthe\npopulation having been evacuated before the ice death, in his future.\nWhatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to die in\nSev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev at least\ntry\nto make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It would, I think, be unfair to rely too much on the author's\nstatements\non his intention, but it seems to me that they support the conventional\ninterpretation. Severian is 'a Christian figure' - compare to Silk, who\nis\n'a good man in a bad religion'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't recall everything that Wolfe has said about this, but didn't he\nactually say that Sev is a member of the mystical body of Christ? (Or was\nthat something that he said to somebody, in addition to the\nSev-as-Christian\ncomment?) Anyway, I can't understand Sev being a Christian, which\npresumably\nrequires one to believe in Christ?\n\nAs to being part of the mystical body of Christ, I am totally unqualified\nto\njudge what that actually means. But perhaps this sentence from the Mystici\nCorporis Christi is relevant: \"For the Church, the Bride of Christ, is\none;\nand yet so vast is the love of the divine Spouse that it embraces in His\nBride the whole human race without exception.\" (\nhttp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html\nCh96)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the\ntext: if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart\nof\nThe Outsider? And what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New\nSun?\nVodalus? Who, Mr. Thallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is indeed the big question. My answer is that LS/SS is a redemption\nof\nthe God-less world of BOTNS/UOTNS - in which neither side is \"Good\". I\nbelieve Sev's life after meeting SilkHorn will be very different than his\ncareer in BOTNS/UOTNS - as I've set out in posts here over the years. I\ndon't think anybody else has found this position very convincing, but I'm\nsticking with it :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C374242.9060100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T15:37:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (09-07-2010 16:18):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/9 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com \n\n If Tzadkiel is a liar, then I don't see what does he gain by\n destroying the world. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness,\n but I don't find it convincing that he would take all that trouble\n just to have a 5 minute massacre sport. We tend to associate evil\n with selfishness, and to annihilate your potential servants makes\n little sense selfishly. And if the intent is to take pleasure in\n killing them, then a global drowning is possibly one of the least\n interesting methods - quick and clean. If otoh he wishes to wipe out\n Humanity for whatever reason, giving a renewed planet to a reduced\n population seems to run counter to the objective.\n\nThis is actually pretty clear in the text, IMHO. The Hierogrammates are\ntrying to breed a new race of Hieros. Severian's task as epitome of\nUrth is to persuade Tzadkiel that the humans of Urth have the genetic\nmaterials needed for potential future Hieros. The destruction of Urth\nis followed by partial repopulation by humans hand-picked by the\nHierodules, presumably for their genetic materials.\nThis actually makes some sense of the family tree and incest\npreoccupations of the text, and of the monkey preoccupation--we know\nfrom the man-apes that there are degraded, semi-ape humans (as well as\nhumans who have probably interbred with aliens of some kind, and humans\nwho do really screwy things to their biology, like Baldanders.) In\nshort, the purification of Urth by massive slaughter makes perfect\nsense--Tzadkiel is wiping the bad crap out of a petri dish he's decided\nto keep using." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes a lot of sense. But why couldn't he cherry pick his humans and take \nthem to a different planet where they would have everything they needed at \ntheir disposal? (Instead of a renewed but blank Earth)\n\nOr is the breeding of hieros an end that justifies the means?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Moreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world,\n why not just do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't\n have that power all by himself, then whoever did have the power is\n calling the shots, not Tzakdiel.\n\nI think this is a trickier question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One for which I have no answer, one way or the other.\n\nPut another way: as a necessary theological axiom, the Increate gets a free \npass when it comes to evil. But lesser beings don't. Unless they can derive \ntheir actions from the very Increate. Which brings us to the start without \nthe $20." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Does Severian not asking for an evacuation imply that he is evil as\n well? I suppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's\n way of presenting things that such a question doesn't even cross his\n mind.\n\nThis seems to fit, doesn't it? Severian is part of a cult-like order\nthat trained him to obey authority, in particular when that authority\ninstructs him to torture or kill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That much is true, but I've always looked at Wolfe's characters as growing \nout of their original constraints." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Mr Thalassocrat \n On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n I remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one. One can certainly question whether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the sun counts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future of Master Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new life must be born in cataclysm?\n\n But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of the population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his future. Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to die in Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev at least try to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?\n\nDo we know how many died, and what arrrangements were made by the various authorities on Urth to evacuate people to higher ground?\n\nSev wasn't on Urth at the time - he only arrived back simultaneously with the flood; maybe indeed there was some reason this was necessary. Making preparations for the Commonwealth would have been down to Valeria, Inire et al.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:46:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nG.Q.- But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within \nthe text:\nif your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of The \nOutsider?\nAnd what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun? Vodalus? Who, \nMr.\nThallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the BotNS analog to The Outsider is The Increate. I am not the \nbest religious\nphilosophy scholar but I think those who deeply consider the question end \nup coming\nto the conclusion that, while we humans are supposed to choose \"good\", God \nis\ninfintely above such conflict. In fact God/The Outsider/Increate uses both \ngood\nand evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable \ndivine goals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but that is not the point I am getting at. The question I'm asking \nrelates to the Urthly representatives of good. Surely there should be \nsomeone - apart from a few witch doctors maybe - standing up for the \nprevention of the White Fountain, if that's what the Increate wants?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As we read Long Sun we see The Outsider get promoted in Silk's mind from \nminor deity\nto top dog. However the \"truth\" is that The Outsider is far more than top \ndog, the\nboss of all gods. In fact he has created Pas and Scylla and Echidna and \nThe Whorl\nand Blue and Green and Urth and uses them to accomplish His goals. Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And we assume that some at least of what's going on is in accordance \nwith those goals.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:56:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't we forgetting someone else near and dear to Wolfe's heart that\nonce used a devastating flood to bring renewal to a world dying,\nchoked with sin?\n\nWhy are we viewing the flood as \"bad\" or as a punishment? Floods,\neven non-divine ones, are capable of destruction, sure, but they also\nrenew and refresh and carry things to new places. I always viewed the\nflood as something necessary to the creation of Ushas (esp. given the\nuse of the term Ushas in a play called \"Eschatology and Genesis\" and\nwhat is said about it there) because it swept away the things that had\npoisoned Urth, like Erebus/Abaia (demons, or in the BOTNS parlance,\nmaybe some sort of hybrid of creatures with hieros). At least, that's\nwhat I got from the demons' (in E&G) talk about attempting to \"poison\nthe seed\" via Jahi (the serpent? I think Jahi means \"serpent of fire\"\nin Japanese, but my Japanese is rusty). Anyway, the way I understood\nit was that Erebus/Abaia/the other vaguely Lovecraftian baddies of the\nBOTNS were the results, like other cacogens, of genetic\nexperiments/AI/whatever, but that they went \"wrong\" whereas the\nHierogrammates went \"right.\" Naturally, the ones that went right\nwould want to cull the bad lines, and to do that, you've got to wipe\nthem out. What better way than a gravitationally-induced flood that\nboth destroys the old and corrupt and makes way for the new (as well\nas renewing the dying sun)?\n\nOr it could be the Benadryll from last night still weighs heavily on my mind.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3774EC.4090907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T19:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 1:56 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nhy are we viewing the flood as \"bad\" or as a punishment? Floods,\neven non-divine ones, are capable of destruction, sure, but they also\nrenew and refresh and carry things to new places." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Knowing that the flooding of Urth is \"bad\" would require knowledge of \nwhat happened to all those people who were transported to other planets \nin Master Ash's timeline. Also, what the standard of living became on \nUrth before the remnant of Urth's population was transported? \n(Presumably the population became quite attenuated, otherwise people \nwould reproduce faster than they could be transported). Also, what \nhappened in Ushas afterwards.\n\nThere isn't really enough information in the story to discover whether \nthe flood was \"bad\". A lot of people died, yes. A lot of people died in \nthe 1944 invasion of Normandy and the subsequent months.\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T19:15:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C3774EC.4090907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 3:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/9/2010 1:56 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Knowing that the flooding of Urth is \"bad\" would require knowledge of what\nhappened to all those people who were transported to other planets in Master\nAsh's timeline." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point. For all we know, their passage off the planet was paid by\ninhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, what the standard of living became on Urth before the remnant of\nUrth's population was transported? (Presumably the population became quite\nattenuated, otherwise people would reproduce faster than they could be\ntransported). Also, what happened in Ushas afterwards.\n\nThere isn't really enough information in the story to discover whether the\nflood was \"bad\". A lot of people died, yes. A lot of people died in the 1944\ninvasion of Normandy and the subsequent months.\n\nu+169b\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C378278.8070409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:11:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (09-07-2010 19:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nG.Q.- But here is an obvious question which should have an answer\nwithin the text:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of\nThe Outsider?\nAnd what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun? Vodalus?\nWho, Mr.\nThallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the BotNS analog to The Outsider is The Increate. I am not the\nbest religious\nphilosophy scholar but I think those who deeply consider the question\nend up coming\nto the conclusion that, while we humans are supposed to choose \"good\",\nGod is\ninfintely above such conflict. In fact God/The Outsider/Increate uses\nboth good\nand evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable\ndivine goals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, but that is not the point I am getting at. The question I'm asking\nrelates to the Urthly representatives of good. Surely there should be\nsomeone - apart from a few witch doctors maybe - standing up for the\nprevention of the White Fountain, if that's what the Increate wants?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days ago, if \nTzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the new sun, since \nthe ones that seem to oppose it don't compare favourably with the ones \nserving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil idea." } ] }, { "message_id": "<242CDA0648A34BB4B17CA3BAE46645BD@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C378278.8070409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote (09-07-2010 19:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, but that is not the point I am getting at. The question I'm asking\nrelates to the Urthly representatives of good. Surely there should be\nsomeone - apart from a few witch doctors maybe - standing up for the\nprevention of the White Fountain, if that's what the Increate wants?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days ago, \nif Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the new sun, \nsince the ones that seem to oppose it don't compare favourably with the \nones serving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil \nidea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It seems \nlike a structural necessity in the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:26:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<242CDA0648A34BB4B17CA3BAE46645BD@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It seems\nlike a structural necessity in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly filled by the Green Man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:58:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood- At least, that' what I got from the demons' (in E&G)\ntalk about attempting to \"poison the seed\" via Jahi (the serpent? I\nthink Jahi means \"serpent of fire\" in Japanese, but my Japanese is rusty)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think the name Jahi in E & G is a reference to the Persian/Zorastrian \ngoddess/demon of that name. She is known for lasciviousness and as a\n\"polluting whore\" and the source of the menstrual curse on\nwomen.\n \nShe is cognate to the Judeo-Kabbalistic personage named Lilith whose\nmating with Adam was also thought to be corrupting and the source of\nmany demons, lamia/snake women, the origin of vampires etc. etc.\n \nI think this allusion supports the rest of your post rather well \n(more than the Japanese, I mean). Not to mention the character\nJahlee in Short Sun...... \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<977250FDC38D4AFA9EAFA0B9FFCD33CE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:05:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: John Watkins \n On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It seems like a structural necessity in the text.\n\n Possibly filled by the Green Man?\n\nI'm pretty sure the Green Man is in favour of the New Sun too.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005e01cb1faa$82aa6ea0$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:05:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nThis is actually pretty clear in the text, IMHO. The Hierogrammates are\ntrying to breed a new race of Hieros. Severian's task as epitome of Urth is\nto persuade Tzadkiel that the humans of Urth have the genetic materials\nneeded for potential future Hieros. The destruction of Urth is followed by\npartial repopulation by humans hand-picked by the Hierodules, presumably for\ntheir genetic materials.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "________________\n\nUh, I don't think so. Most of the people Sev found on Ushas after he\nreturned there from the stone town were the decendants of the sailors on the\nShip who had lost the fight with Sev and the eidolons right after the sham\nTrial.\n\n-----------------\n I said, \"Not knowing fire or anything else,\" and as I\nspoke I recalled what the young officer had reported: that\nHierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds\nof the House Absolute. Remembering that, it was simple\nenough to guess who my priest's forebears had been--the\nsailors routed by my memories had paid for their defeat\nwith their pasts, just as I would have lost the future of my\ndescendants had my own past been defeated. (URTH, 369)\n----------------\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:07:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<977250FDC38D4AFA9EAFA0B9FFCD33CE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n *From:* John Watkins \n On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It seems\nlike a structural necessity in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly filled by the Green Man?\n\n\nI'm pretty sure the Green Man is in favour of the New Sun too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall from earlier discussions on this list, that's far from clear.\nIn his initial appearance he seems to be indifferent to the Sun myth. Later\nhe appears in a confusing scene with Tzadkiel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:13:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A.P.M.:> Sure, but that is not the point I am getting at. The question I'm asking" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "relates to the Urthly representatives of good. Surely there should be\nsomeone - apart from a few witch doctors maybe - standing up for the\nprevention of the White Fountain, if that's what the Increate wants?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think what the Increate wants is not just for the White Fountain to save the \nsun, but for Severian to go through a series of massive trials and tribulations\nto bring the White Fountain. They are necessary.\n \n(and they ARE necessary in a meta-fictive way. The Increate of this universe is,\nin fact Gene Wolfe. And it would be one crappy universe/story if all we got was\n\"Black Hole in sun. Plugged with White Fountain. The End.\" Wolfe HAD to give \nSeverian trials and tribulations).\n \n \nAnyway, I think all of Ascia and the war can be seen as efforts by great powers\n(Abaia, Erebus etc.) to stop the coming of the New Sun. Clearly the coming of \nthe White Fountain is tied to the Autarchy. And if Ascia won and took over the\nCommonwealth there would be no Autarch. Only The Group of Seventeen.\n \nAs analogues to ancient pagan monsters, those megatherians have a lot \nto lose from a purifying Judeo-Christian flood. They'd be reduced to being\njust some old mythological stories.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:15:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<005e01cb1faa$82aa6ea0$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nUh, I don't think so. Most of the people Sev found on Ushas after he\nreturned there from the stone town were the decendants of the sailors on the\nShip who had lost the fight with Sev and the eidolons right after the sham\nTrial.\n\n-----------------\n I said, \"Not knowing fire or anything else,\" and as I\nspoke I recalled what the young officer had reported: that\nHierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds\nof the House Absolute. Remembering that, it was simple\nenough to guess who my priest's forebears had been--the\nsailors routed by my memories had paid for their defeat\nwith their pasts, just as I would have lost the future of my\ndescendants had my own past been defeated. (URTH, 369)\n\n\nI conceed that I misremembered the passage and forgot that the Ushas people\nwere descended from the sailors. That said, it isn't clear to me that this\nis inconsistent with my hypothesis--Severian knows about \"a man and woman,\"\nnot a general decamping of the humans on the Ship. Maybe the humans from\nthe Ship were screened genetically?\n\n(I recognize that this sounds like speculation, but we do *know* that the\nHierogrammates are running a breeding program. I'm trying to square their\nactions with that.)\n\n\n----------------\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:21:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: John Watkins \n On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n From: John Watkins \n On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It seems like a structural necessity in the text.\n\n Possibly filled by the Green Man?\n\n I'm pretty sure the Green Man is in favour of the New Sun too.\n\n\n As I recall from earlier discussions on this list, that's far from clear. In his initial appearance he seems to be indifferent to the Sun myth. Later he appears in a confusing scene with Tzadkiel. \n\nHe's from the future. He lives by photosynthesis. If he thinks the coming of the New Sun was a bad idea, he's got some major existential hangups to deal with.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C0E93ED530048BCB3F48218C454FE6D@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:25:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nAnyway, I think all of Ascia and the war can be seen as efforts by great \npowers\n(Abaia, Erebus etc.) to stop the coming of the New Sun. Clearly the coming \nof\nthe White Fountain is tied to the Autarchy. And if Ascia won and took over \nthe\nCommonwealth there would be no Autarch. Only The Group of Seventeen.\n\nAs analogues to ancient pagan monsters, those megatherians have a lot\nto lose from a purifying Judeo-Christian flood. They'd be reduced to being\njust some old mythological stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard to know. I seem to recall someone saying the Ascians would be \nless affected than the Commonwealth by the arrival of the New Sun.\n\nAs for the sea monsters, it's not immediately obvious that they have much \ndirectly to fear from a flood. Maybe they plan to chill for a few centuries \nuntil human society renormalises, then start their war games again.\n\nI don't think they were for it, but I'm not convinced that they expended \ngreat effors fighting it either. The undines don't seem to have tried to \nkill Sev; they may have preserved his life.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<772357.51292.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:31:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<242CDA0648A34BB4B17CA3BAE46645BD@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days ago, if \nTzadkiel is evil, where are the *good*\npeople opposing the new sun, since the ones that seem to oppose it don't \ncompare favourably with the ones\nserving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It seems like \na structural necessity in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that. If there are any \"good\" characters in /Pirate Freedom/, \nthey're pretty minor. As I recall. But I don't think Tzadkiel (who I'd like to \nforget) was supposed to be evil.\n\nOn the monkey business--I didn't notice the monkey repetitions, and I agree that \nthey're interesting. Perhaps even more clearly crying out for an explanation \nare the two appearances of Fechin. I have no idea what the explanation might \nbe, but I really don't think it's that Rudesind, the old man, or Fechin is \nInire. I find it much more believable that we're supposed to think the baboon \nat the lazaret is a spy for Inire.\n\n(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. I still want to know. And I'm with those \nwho think he isn't sexually interested in girls, or any humans.)\n\nPeople, I think Ryan Quinn especially, have been saying they think that since \nWolfe spent all that time on TBotNS, every detail must be significant. I don't \nthink that's necessarily true. Nadine Gordimer, in her introduction to a \ncollection of her early short stories, defined the short story as fiction short \nenough for the writer to keep it all in his or her head at once. (As I \nrecall.) Vladimir Nabokov claimed he wrote his novels this way. He wrote on \nindex cards and could fill in any point in the story (though he also said he \nwore out erasers faster than pencil lead). He may have written /Ada/ this way, \nbut TBotNS is more than twice as long, and I don't believe Wolfe knew at every \npoint what he had written at every other point that readers might connect with \nit. (Heck, Nabokov didn't notice every possible false lead either.) In \nparticular, I think that when he wrote the appendix to /Shadow/, he was thinking \nthat it took place in our future, not in a past cycle of the universe.\n\nExecutive summary: When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered \nevery other time he mentioned a monkey.\n\n(By the way, Nabokov said specifically that some of his stories, maybe all his \nlater ones, contained a second tale hidden under the first one, like the \"Second \nHouse\" that Lee mentioned. I recommend him for those who like fiction of that \nkind. I'll also say, and have said at NABOKV-L, that Wolfe is the most \nNabokovian sf writer. But I'm not guaranteeing you'll like Nabokov.)\n\nI too was horrified by the flood in TUotNS (though I'd stopped enjoying the book \nlong before that because I felt the writing was far below Wolfe's standard). \nThe afterlife doesn't mitigate the disaster unless the victims got as good a \nchance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed. True, the Bible \nsays God caused a flood, but he seems to have thought it was a bad idea \nafterwards, which he apparently didn't after the flood Severian caused.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:42:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<772357.51292.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some thoughts on Jerry's stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. ?I still want to know. ?And I'm with those\nwho think he isn't sexually interested in girls, or any humans.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have assumed from the beginning that it was a religious title. But\nthen, I'm a mackerelsnapper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People, I think Ryan Quinn especially, have been saying they think that since\nWolfe spent all that time on TBotNS, every detail must be significant. ?I don't\nthink that's necessarily true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I repeat my citation of Alan Moore re: _Watchmen_: \"Not everything means _much_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that when he wrote the appendix to /Shadow/, he was thinking\nthat it took place in our future, not in a past cycle of the universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems very likely to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Executive summary: When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered\nevery other time he mentioned a monkey." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet ... we are faced with Wolfe's insistence on not repeating clues.\nHe seems to _think_ he has this level of control over his material." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I too was horrified by the flood in TUotNS (though I'd stopped enjoying the book\nlong before that because I felt the writing was far below Wolfe's standard).\nThe afterlife doesn't mitigate the disaster unless the victims got as good a\nchance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed. ?True, the Bible\nsays God caused a flood, but he seems to have thought it was a bad idea\nafterwards, which he apparently didn't after the flood Severian caused." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is intended to be horrible.\n\nI also think that there's an important point you're missing -- God\ndoesn't cause this flood; Severian and the Hiero(foo)s do. God\nresponded to the Noachian flood by promising that he would never again\ndestroy the world this way; but he doesn't promise that creatures\nwon't do likewise." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C379B6F.8090301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:58:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered\nevery other time he mentioned a monkey.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe does make mistakes. And he can inadvertently reuse ideas. A famous \ninstance that he noted himself is that his protagonist in \"The Other \nDead Man\" and the villain in \"An Evil Guest\" have the same name. And it \nis not uncommon for writers to have an inclination for particular \nadjectives and analogies.\n\nBut if this is the case in this instance, I would think there would be \nexamples of Wolfe comparing characters to monkeys in other stories? \nEspecially since he did it three times in this one novel. Can anyone \nthink of some others?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T22:05:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: Mr Thalassocrat" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of\nthe population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his\nfuture. Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to\ndie in Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev\nat least try to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was\npossible?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is more like, they let it happen as late as they possibly could\nwithout endangering the success of the New Sun. This meant a dying urth\nabout to disappear under its final ice age with a population in the\nmillions rather than billions, so that the minimum loss of life would be\nnecessary for the coming of Ushas." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00f701cb1fb2$e7ed00e0$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-09T22:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI conceed that I misremembered the passage and forgot that the Ushas\npeople\nwere descended from the sailors. That said, it isn't clear to me that\nthis\nis inconsistent with my hypothesis--Severian knows about \"a man and\nwoman,\"\nnot a general decamping of the humans on the Ship. Maybe the humans from\nthe Ship were screened genetically?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ushas was not seeded with just any humans from the Ship. Specifically, Sev\nmeans the sailors who survived the battle with the eidolons and fled the\nroom where they fought (URTH, 155). Those are the men Sev and Gunnie feared\nwould kill them on the way back to Urth (161-62). Apheta said the problem\nwould not come up, and it didn't.\n\nI guess you could say that running away is a survival trait that could be\npassed on, but I don't think that's what you had in mind with genetic\nscreening. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T22:08:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<00f701cb1fb2$e7ed00e0$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I conceed that I misremembered the passage and forgot that the Ushas\npeople\nwere descended from the sailors. That said, it isn't clear to me that\nthis\nis inconsistent with my hypothesis--Severian knows about \"a man and\nwoman,\"\nnot a general decamping of the humans on the Ship. Maybe the humans from\nthe Ship were screened genetically?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess you could say that running away is a survival trait that could be\npassed on, but I don't think that's what you had in mind with genetic\nscreening. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant \"not part cacogen or two generations north of man-ape or whatever.\"\nPure human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " -Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<088ad4c2c425d991e0863df5e691dd2d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T22:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C379B6F.8090301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered\nevery other time he mentioned a monkey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe does make mistakes. And he can inadvertently reuse ideas. A famous\ninstance that he noted himself is that his protagonist in \"The Other\nDead Man\" and the villain in \"An Evil Guest\" have the same name. And it\nis not uncommon for writers to have an inclination for particular\nadjectives and analogies.\n\nBut if this is the case in this instance, I would think there would be\nexamples of Wolfe comparing characters to monkeys in other stories?\nEspecially since he did it three times in this one novel. Can anyone\nthink of some others?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis mentioned that Sev describes his pouch as manskin on one place and\ndoeskin in another." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T23:38:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C378278.8070409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/10 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days ago,\nif Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the new sun, since\nthe ones that seem to oppose it don't compare favourably with the ones\nserving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sailors who witness Sev's \"trial\" almost unanimously choose to oppose\nthe new sun. (The only one who doesn't is poor Gunnie, who seems fated to\nalways be a traitor, in both younger and older guises.) They either die or\nhave their memories wiped for this.\n\nI don't think it's too glib to note here that \"matyr\" means \"witness\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<25108F76B7BE44E09CB1B0CB019271F9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-09T23:48:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \n From: Mr Thalassocrat" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of\nthe population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his\nfuture. Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to\ndie in Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev\nat least try to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was\npossible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is more like, they let it happen as late as they possibly could\nwithout endangering the success of the New Sun. This meant a dying urth\nabout to disappear under its final ice age with a population in the\nmillions rather than billions, so that the minimum loss of life would be\nnecessary for the coming of Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the coming of the New Sun is only a relatively short time after \nSeverian left; a matter of several decades. His (ex)wife is still alive.\n\nAsh's time, when the glaciers are finally closing in, is - if I recall \ncorrectly - some four thousand years in the future.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37B820.7020409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T00:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/09/2010 03:58 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI think this allusion supports the rest of your post rather well\n(more than the Japanese, I mean). Not to mention the character\nJahlee in Short Sun...... \t\t \t \t\t\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Julhi in the eponymous C.L. Moore story starring Northwest Smith.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<516264.61863.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T00:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C379B6F.8090301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered\nevery other time he mentioned a monkey.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe does make mistakes. And he can inadvertently reuse ideas. A famous \ninstance that he noted himself is\nthat his protagonist in \"The Other Dead Man\" and the villain in \"An Evil Guest\" \nhave the same name. And it is >not uncommon for writers to have an inclination \nfor particular adjectives and analogies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if this is the case in this instance, I would think there would be examples \nof Wolfe comparing characters to\nmonkeys in other stories? Especially since he did it three times in this one \nnovel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He might have just had monkeys on his mind at the time. Or happened to think of \ncharacters who were monkeylike. Or wanted them in a book (that may be) about \ntranscending one's baser nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can anyone think of some others?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's why the Pansuccursor gave us Google Book Search. Not counting \ncharacters who are monkeys or who are compared to monkey bars who flunked \nDarwin, there's Pouk (twice), Mother Cloot, a girl in a story told by Fava, and \nI hesitate to mention anyone in the same universe as Father Inire, but Severian \n(in TUotNS), Silk (in both /Litany/ and RttW), and all human beings (in \"The \nDeath of Dr. Island\", \"The Ziggurat\", and OBW). That leaves the field pretty \nopen.\n\nYou can see all of those and more mentions of monkeys at\n\nhttp://www.google.com/search?q=\"Gene+Wolfe\"+monkey&hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&ei=T8Q3TN6DIcT7lweG3O3UBw&start=0&sa=N\n\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37CC5F.9040202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T01:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote (10-07-2010 00:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010/7/10 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com\n\n\n\n I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days\n ago, if Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the\n new sun, since the ones that seem to oppose it don't compare\n favourably with the ones serving it. That to me is the chief problem\n with the Tzadkiel-is-evil idea.\n\nThe sailors who witness Sev's \"trial\" almost unanimously choose to\noppose the new sun. (The only one who doesn't is poor Gunnie, who seems\nfated to always be a traitor, in both younger and older guises.) They\neither die or have their memories wiped for this.\nI don't think it's too glib to note here that \"matyr\" means \"witness\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I had originally said something about excepting those who were simply \nfighting for their lives (only in the crucial moment, I add). But either way \nyou have a point. Though I was hoping for a more widespread presence.\nKind of like, with all the evil in the Whorl, someone like Silk is genuinely \ngood - but then Silk is only one person, even though he seems to have honest \nfollowers." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T01:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<772357.51292.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's God's plan that everybody die.\n\nSometimes a whole bunch go at once.\n\nGet over it.\n\nIt's really not a big deal.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days\nago, if\nTzadkiel is evil, where are the *good*\npeople opposing the new sun, since the ones that seem to oppose it\ndon't\ncompare favourably with the ones\nserving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil\nidea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at. It\nseems like\na structural necessity in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see that. If there are any \"good\" characters in /Pirate Freedom/,\nthey're pretty minor. As I recall. But I don't think Tzadkiel (who I'd\nlike to\nforget) was supposed to be evil.\n\nOn the monkey business--I didn't notice the monkey repetitions, and I\nagree that\nthey're interesting. Perhaps even more clearly crying out for an\nexplanation\nare the two appearances of Fechin. I have no idea what the explanation\nmight\nbe, but I really don't think it's that Rudesind, the old man, or Fechin is\nInire. I find it much more believable that we're supposed to think the\nbaboon\nat the lazaret is a spy for Inire.\n\n(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. I still want to know. And I'm with\nthose\nwho think he isn't sexually interested in girls, or any humans.)\n\nPeople, I think Ryan Quinn especially, have been saying they think that\nsince\nWolfe spent all that time on TBotNS, every detail must be significant. I\ndon't\nthink that's necessarily true. Nadine Gordimer, in her introduction to a\ncollection of her early short stories, defined the short story as fiction\nshort\nenough for the writer to keep it all in his or her head at once. (As I\nrecall.) Vladimir Nabokov claimed he wrote his novels this way. He wrote\non\nindex cards and could fill in any point in the story (though he also said\nhe\nwore out erasers faster than pencil lead). He may have written /Ada/ this\nway,\nbut TBotNS is more than twice as long, and I don't believe Wolfe knew at\nevery\npoint what he had written at every other point that readers might connect\nwith\nit. (Heck, Nabokov didn't notice every possible false lead either.) In\nparticular, I think that when he wrote the appendix to /Shadow/, he was\nthinking\nthat it took place in our future, not in a past cycle of the universe.\n\nExecutive summary: When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have\nremembered\nevery other time he mentioned a monkey.\n\n(By the way, Nabokov said specifically that some of his stories, maybe all\nhis\nlater ones, contained a second tale hidden under the first one, like the\n\"Second\nHouse\" that Lee mentioned. I recommend him for those who like fiction of\nthat\nkind. I'll also say, and have said at NABOKV-L, that Wolfe is the most\nNabokovian sf writer. But I'm not guaranteeing you'll like Nabokov.)\n\nI too was horrified by the flood in TUotNS (though I'd stopped enjoying\nthe book\nlong before that because I felt the writing was far below Wolfe's\nstandard).\nThe afterlife doesn't mitigate the disaster unless the victims got as good\na\nchance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed. True, the\nBible\nsays God caused a flood, but he seems to have thought it was a bad idea\nafterwards, which he apparently didn't after the flood Severian caused.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37D1F2.8050604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T01:50:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<772357.51292.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (09-07-2010 22:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. I still want to know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why are Latin Rite priests 'fathers'? They're not supposed to be producing \nchildren.\nMaybe someone that old and important in the Commmonwealth should be called \nFather.\nBut the reason, that I see, is that the whole FI is a title. Inire does not \nlook like a proper name to me. And when people refer to someone of such \nimportance, they don't use proper names. They won't do it for the Autarch - \nhe may be externally referred to by name, but not generally, I think - and \nthey won't do it for the Autarch's vizier.\nThat raises the question - what's the meaning of FI?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I'm with those\nwho think he isn't sexually interested in girls, or any humans.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This I think is unknowable. Sex has a way of popping up in those books where \nyou least expect or actually want it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<36BE2968-5415-458D-AA99-D60390289150@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T02:06:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C37D1F2.8050604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 9, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. I still want to know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are Latin Rite priests 'fathers'? They're not supposed to be producing children.\nMaybe someone that old and important in the Commmonwealth should be called Father.\nBut the reason, that I see, is that the whole FI is a title. Inire does not look like a proper name to me. And when people refer to someone of such importance, they don't use proper names. They won't do it for the Autarch - he may be externally referred to by name, but not generally, I think - and they won't do it for the Autarch's vizier.\nThat raises the question - what's the meaning of FI?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...\n\nFather in Ire\nInherit Fear\nFire in Earth\nFainter Heir\nIn Their Fear\n\nI dunno. Just a thought?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T02:24:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<36BE2968-5415-458D-AA99-D60390289150@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nMaybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...\n\nFather in Ire\nInherit Fear\nFire in Earth\nFainter Heir\nIn Their Fear\n\nI dunno. Just a thought?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi mentions the fact that \"inire\" is a Latin infinitve\nmeaning \"to begin\" or \"to enter,\" related to \"initiate\" and suggesting the\nguardian of a secret knowledge. This is turn Andre-Driussi connects to the\npassword \"quercine penetralia\" and the word \"Ylem,\" which is the primordial\nsubstance of creation. When I read the explanation of \"inire\" for the first\ntime I realized that I had subconsciously made the connection to the Latin\nword myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<462769.97128.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T04:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSome thoughts on Jerry's stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. I still want to know. And I'm with \nthose\nwho think he isn't sexually interested in girls, or any humans.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have assumed from the beginning that it was a religious title. But\nthen, I'm a mackerelsnapper." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnd though I'm a back-wheel skid, that was my first thought too. But why is he \nthe only one with a decipherable title? And are any caloyers, sannyasins, etc., \never addressed or referred to as \"Father\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People, I think Ryan Quinn especially, have been saying they think that since\nWolfe spent all that time on TBotNS, every detail must be significant. I \ndon't\nthink that's necessarily true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I repeat my citation of Alan Moore re: _Watchmen_: \"Not everything means \n_much_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Executive summary: When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered\nevery other time he mentioned a monkey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet ... we are faced with Wolfe's insistence on not repeating clues.\nHe seems to _think_ he has this level of control over his material." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. But he doesn't. We can't tell the difference between his single clues \nand all the other things that might be the single clue to something else.\n\nWhich is why everyone finds his stories so frustrating and ultimately \nuninteresting, including us, so we're not even having this discussion.\n\nWhich brings me to more stuff--/The Silmarillion/ this time. In addition to the \nflaws people have mentioned, much of it is too ordinary. It doesn't have the \npervasive nostalgia of LotR. More to the point, for large stretches the elves \nare just like people. In LotR, Tolkien was very careful to hide things about \nthe elves--the hobbits have fields as well as food, for instance, but there's no \nmention of fields in Lorien where the grain for Lembas would be grown. Likewise \nElvenhome was only hinted at. In /The Silmarillion/, we see Elvenhome, the \nelves are onstage all the time, and they can't live up to our imaginations.\n\nNormally Wolfe displays complete mastery of mystery. He describes things that \nwill be impressive or beautiful, and leaves other things as hints. In /TUotNS/, \nto the extent that I haven't blotted it out of my memory, this didn't work for \nme. A lot that I enjoyed imagining in /TBotNS/ is now spelled out, as you said, \nand it doesn't measure up. The worst is Yesod, mentioned in one almost \nthrown-away line in /Citadel/. In /Urth/ we go there, and Yesod looks a lot \nlike Earth or Urth. Of course Severian's human mind can't assimilate what's \nthere and Wolfe's human mind would have great difficulty describing a higher \nuniverse. But that was a reason not to try it.\n\nThe puzzles, intentional or unintentional, are a big part of what keeps us \noccupied here. (The same is true on NABOKV-L.) I wonder how much time we'd \nspend on Wolfe if he communicated exactly what he wanted to most of his readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I too was horrified by the flood in TUotNS (though I'd stopped enjoying the \nbook\nlong before that because I felt the writing was far below Wolfe's standard).\nThe afterlife doesn't mitigate the disaster unless the victims got as good a\nchance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed. True, the \nBible\nsays God caused a flood, but he seems to have thought it was a bad idea\nafterwards, which he apparently didn't after the flood Severian caused." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is intended to be horrible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also think that there's an important point you're missing -- God\ndoesn't cause this flood; Severian and the Hiero(foo)s do. God\nresponded to the Noachian flood by promising that he would never again\ndestroy the world this way; but he doesn't promise that creatures\nwon't do likewise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if Urth is in a past universe, then God saw what a worldwide flood was \nlike. You would think if it displeased him when he did it, it would have \ndispleased him earlier when Tzadkiel and Severian did it, and he'd have known \nnot to do it on his own.\n\nOf course I'm picturing God as responding to events, which seems to be the \npicture in Genesis, not as omniscient the way modern Judaism, Christianity, and \nIslam see him.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T04:16:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<462769.97128.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course I'm picturing God as responding to events, which seems to be the\npicture in Genesis, not as omniscient the way modern Judaism,\nChristianity, and Islam see him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? Do you believe that Gene Wolfe pictures God like this?\n\nGod, the real one, the omniscient and omnipotent one, intends for\neverybody to die.\n\nWhy should he not, now and again, intend for a whole bunch of people to\ndie at about the same time?\n\nIn fact, he does, as geological history and traditional story both show.\n\nPromises in Genesis and so on to not do this and that can easily be taken\nfor the wishful thinking of the humans who wrote the book, or wrote it\ndown.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3809DF.5020702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T05:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...\n\n Father in Ire\n Inherit Fear\n Fire in Earth\n Fainter Heir\n In Their Fear\n\n I dunno. Just a thought?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fenrir" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T06:12:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C37CC5F.9040202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/10 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I had originally said something about excepting those who were simply\nfighting for their lives (only in the crucial moment, I add). But either way\nyou have a point. Though I was hoping for a more widespread presence.\nKind of like, with all the evil in the Whorl, someone like Silk is\ngenuinely good - but then Silk is only one person, even though he seems to\nhave honest followers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think they are simply fighting for their lives. They attack, rather\nthan defend, voting with their weapons against the new sun whose\nconsequences Tzadkiel has just explained to them. They are fighting for\nUrth. Most of them would have no direct stake in the outcome - they were\nborn on other planets." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8bf6c991b34c7f6d4110e2acfd4ea4c3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T06:59:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3809DF.5020702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Father in Ire\n Inherit Fear\n Fire in Earth\n Fainter Heir\n In Their Fear" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I dunno. Just a thought?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fenrir" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C38213C.9070308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T07:29:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<8bf6c991b34c7f6d4110e2acfd4ea4c3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...\nFather in Ire\nInherit Fear\nFire in Earth\nFainter Heir\nIn Their Fear\nI dunno. Just a thought?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fenrir\nWhy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the \nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end \nof the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a \nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<78837dd4b2f7f7049a19a667c02d1d3e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T07:33:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C38213C.9070308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I dunno. Just a thought?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fenrir" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end\nof the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are not bad reasons.\n\nI was thinking, frost giant.\n\nNow I think, huh.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C382CDE.2010909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T08:18:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<25108F76B7BE44E09CB1B0CB019271F9@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 6:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nFrom: Mr Thalassocrat" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of\nthe population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his\nfuture. Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to\ndie in Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev\nat least try to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was\npossible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is more like, they let it happen as late as they possibly\ncould\nwithout endangering the success of the New Sun. This meant a dying urth\nabout to disappear under its final ice age with a population in the\nmillions rather than billions, so that the minimum loss of life would be\nnecessary for the coming of Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the coming of the New Sun is only a relatively short time after\nSeverian left; a matter of several decades. His (ex)wife is still alive.\n\nAsh's time, when the glaciers are finally closing in, is - if I recall\ncorrectly - some four thousand years in the future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev mentions the land abutting the ice in his time - there could come a \npoint where even the rehabbed sun could not return the balance if the \nice advanced far enough. They know Severian takes the Phoenix throne and \nall the other chiliads of trials and hardhips have worn down the \npopulace of old Urth - best to strike then, to delay further could not \nbe expected to advance the cause of Ushas." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-10T08:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C382CDE.2010909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 7/9/2010 6:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is more like, they let it happen as late as they possibly\ncould\nwithout endangering the success of the New Sun. This meant a dying urth\nabout to disappear under its final ice age with a population in the\nmillions rather than billions, so that the minimum loss of life would be\nnecessary for the coming of Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the coming of the New Sun is only a relatively short time after\nSeverian left; a matter of several decades. His (ex)wife is still alive.\n\nAsh's time, when the glaciers are finally closing in, is - if I recall\ncorrectly - some four thousand years in the future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev mentions the land abutting the ice in his time - there could come a \npoint where even the rehabbed sun could not return the balance if the ice \nadvanced far enough. They know Severian takes the Phoenix throne and all \nthe other chiliads of trials and hardhips have worn down the populace of \nold Urth - best to strike then, to delay further could not be expected to \nadvance the cause of Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This may well be so, and certainly it makes sense not to have the advent of \nthe New Sun delayed until the last possible moment.\n\nI was just pointing out that Urth is populous at the time of the coming of \nthe New Sun.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C387B16.1050209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T13:52:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<78837dd4b2f7f7049a19a667c02d1d3e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Fenrir\nWhy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end\nof the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These are not bad reasons.\nI was thinking, frost giant.\nNow I think, huh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure you caught this, but it was late and I failed to spell it out:\nFr. Inire = Fenrir\nThat's a pretty darn close anagram.\n\nu+16b9\n//" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T13:56:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C387B16.1050209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These are not bad reasons.\nI was thinking, frost giant.\nNow I think, huh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure you caught this," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " but it was late and I failed to spell it out:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You did?\n\nWhat was the list of anagrams about?\n\nDo you believe that things must be spelled out for most people to get them?\n\nDon't answer.\n\nThink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fr. Inire = Fenrir\nThat's a pretty darn close anagram." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nI believe that I said that after initial skepticism, I find this quite\ninteresting.\n\nWhere the monkey fuck is my zen stick?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T17:07:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C38213C.9070308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 3:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nPlenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end of\nthe world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a great insight.\n\nMaybe this gives a triple meaning to the name--\"Father\" suggests the\npolitically involved churchmen of Byzantium; \"inire\" suggests an initiate of\na Gnostic sect or Greek mystery cult, but at the root he is \"Fenrir,\"\nsharing with Abaia et al. the name of an ancient monster that describes his\nfunction. It's easy to hyperbolize when discussing Wolfe's writing, but if\nyou've nailed his intent that's a really nice bit of writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2e3814baca44631d70bed0f8b61bbc69.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T17:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do think this is impressive, and I want to say this publicly.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 3:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end\nof\nthe world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a great insight.\n\nMaybe this gives a triple meaning to the name--\"Father\" suggests the\npolitically involved churchmen of Byzantium; \"inire\" suggests an initiate\nof\na Gnostic sect or Greek mystery cult, but at the root he is \"Fenrir,\"\nsharing with Abaia et al. the name of an ancient monster that describes\nhis\nfunction. It's easy to hyperbolize when discussing Wolfe's writing, but\nif\nyou've nailed his intent that's a really nice bit of writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "u+16b9\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T22:00:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<2e3814baca44631d70bed0f8b61bbc69.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how serious I was when I suggested Inire's name may be anagrammatic, but it's interesting for sure.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 10, 2010, at 1:18 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI do think this is impressive, and I want to say this publicly.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 3:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end\nof\nthe world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a great insight.\n\nMaybe this gives a triple meaning to the name--\"Father\" suggests the\npolitically involved churchmen of Byzantium; \"inire\" suggests an initiate\nof\na Gnostic sect or Greek mystery cult, but at the root he is \"Fenrir,\"\nsharing with Abaia et al. the name of an ancient monster that describes\nhis\nfunction. It's easy to hyperbolize when discussing Wolfe's writing, but\nif\nyou've nailed his intent that's a really nice bit of writing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C38FA3A.3080708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T22:54:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C38213C.9070308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/10/2010 2:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...\nFather in Ire\nInherit Fear\nFire in Earth\nFainter Heir\nIn Their Fear\nI dunno. Just a thought?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fenrir\nWhy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end\nof the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He could leave at any time via the mirrors, or take a vacation of most \nany length via the Atrium or the Botanic Gardens. Severian thinks he has \ntaken the post voluntarily: \"We know your master is what the people call \na cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have \nchosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a \nhuman being.\" Citadel, XXXV" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3AD509.6010907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T08:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C38FA3A.3080708@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Fenrir\nWhy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the\nauthor. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end\nof the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a\nbackward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He could leave at any time via the mirrors, or take a vacation of most \nany length via the Atrium or the Botanic Gardens. Severian thinks he \nhas taken the post voluntarily: \"We know your master is what the \npeople call a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of \nthose few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, \nremaining on Urth as a human being.\" Citadel, XXXV" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm...let me make a distinction in terms: \"chained to a rock\", not \n\"marooned\" there. And by associating Fr Inire with Fenrir, I do not \nintend to say that Fr Inire was captured and forced to stay on Urth by \nsome means physical means.\n\n\"Chose _for whatever reason_\" includes choices based on very limited \noptions...including no real options at all. Sure, he was *physically* \nable leave at any time (perhaps) or travel to a better Time, but the \nvery word \"hierodule\" (Heiro slave or Heiro robot) suggests that any \n\"choice\", for him is a highly qualified term. Anyway, it's hard for me \nto imagine Father Inire taking two weeks off to hang at an off-planet \nresort.\n\nDoes Severian's statement here imply that he didn't KNOW at the time Fr \nInire's reasons for being stationed on Urth? Or only a decision not to \n\"get in to it\" with Rudesind?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T13:44:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3AD509.6010907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm...let me make a distinction in terms: \"chained to a rock\", not \n\"marooned\" there. And by associating Fr Inire with Fenrir, I do not \nintend to say that Fr Inire was captured and forced to stay on Urth by \nsome means physical means" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI like the possibility of Fenrir as a name origin for Fr. Inire too. I \nalso agree that suggesting Inire could escape Urth whenever he wanted is\nnot capturing the spirit of the suggestion. One might similarly suggest \nthat Moses could have just gone down from Mt. Nebo and walked into The\nPromised Land whenvever he pleased despite what God told him.\n \nI think I am safe in saying that nobody is suggesting Father Inire IS\nFenrir, any more than I was suggesting that he IS the baboon-headed \nEgyptian god Thoth.\n \nThe Tale of the Boy Called Frog borrows from greek mythology, the Old\nTestament, Rudyard Kipling, roman mythology and the Mayflower/Pilgrims stuff.\nWolfe poaches from all these stories to make a melange which serves\nhis purpose in this story. Perhaps he makes a similar melange of mythological\ncharacters with Father Inire, also to serve the purpose of this story.\n \nLest one think that any mythological story can be contorted into fitting \ninto BotNS I'll mention that I did check into what is probably the most \nnotable monkey-like god of the pagan world, the Hindu deity, Hanuman. I \ndidn't find much at all that could suggest Wolfe had borrowed from him for \nFather Inire.\n \nOn the other hand there is the Chinese monkey-king, Sun Wukong, who travelled\nwith a monk from China to retrieve Buddhist scriptures from India." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He acquired the powers of shapeshifting known as the \"72 transformations\", \nsupposedly the more versatile and difficult set of skills that allows him to \ntransform into every possible form of existence, including people and objects. \nHe also learned about cloud-traveling, including a technique called the J?nd?uy?n\nwhich covers 108,000 li (54,000 km or 33,554 mi) in a single flip. Finally, he \ncould transform each of the 84,000 hairs on his body into inanimate objects and\nliving beings, or even clones of himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI see some possibility for BotNS poaching there.\n \n \n \n \n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B1E18.6010207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T13:52:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (12-07-2010 14:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I am safe in saying that nobody is suggesting Father Inire IS\nFenrir, any more than I was suggesting that he IS the baboon-headed\nEgyptian god Thoth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are there any other cases in the Sun books of\n- a proper name that isn't a real historical proper name\n- a proper name that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper name?\n- a title that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper name?\n\nThese are commonplace in fantastic literature, but I'm unsure when it's \nWolfe we're talking about. I do have the idea that there's Wolfean \nprecedent, but I can't recall where." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T14:04:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B1E18.6010207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/12 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are there any other cases in the Sun books of\n- a proper name that isn't a real historical proper name\n- a proper name that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper\nname?\n- a title that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper name?\n\nThese are commonplace in fantastic literature, but I'm unsure when it's\nWolfe we're talking about. I do have the idea that there's Wolfean\nprecedent, but I can't recall where." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or a proper name that is the infinitive form a verb?\n\nI don't see the Fenrir thing, but I also don't see the Latin \"inire\". The\nname is a real puzzle." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-12T14:22:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nOn the other hand there is the Chinese monkey-king, Sun Wukong, who \ntravelled\nwith a monk from China to retrieve Buddhist scriptures from India." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He acquired the powers of shapeshifting known as the \"72 transformations\",\nsupposedly the more versatile and difficult set of skills that allows him \nto\ntransform into every possible form of existence, including people and \nobjects.\nHe also learned about cloud-traveling, including a technique called the \nJ?nd?uy?n\nwhich covers 108,000 li (54,000 km or 33,554 mi) in a single flip." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He could save some effort by leaping only 8,544 miles.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-12T14:34:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sun Wukong is in some ways the Chinese version of Hanuman.\n\nHanuman is a monkey general, leader of a monkey army, spy and advisor to\nRama, who is a human king and God in his offtime. He is a manifestation of\nthe Wind.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nOn the other hand there is the Chinese monkey-king, Sun Wukong, who\ntravelled\nwith a monk from China to retrieve Buddhist scriptures from India." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He acquired the powers of shapeshifting known as the \"72\ntransformations\",\nsupposedly the more versatile and difficult set of skills that allows\nhim\nto\ntransform into every possible form of existence, including people and\nobjects.\nHe also learned about cloud-traveling, including a technique called the\nJ??nd??uy??n\nwhich covers 108,000 li (54,000 km or 33,554 mi) in a single flip." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He could save some effort by leaping only 8,544 miles.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B4FA2.9030900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T17:23:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B1E18.6010207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/12/2010 8:52 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAre there any other cases in the Sun books of\n- a proper name that isn't a real historical proper name\n- a proper name that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical \nproper name?\n- a title that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper name?\n\nThese are commonplace in fantastic literature, but I'm unsure when \nit's Wolfe we're talking about. I do have the idea that there's \nWolfean precedent, but I can't recall where." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm the guy who argues that the word \"inhuma\" comes from a complex \nand multi-layered word association with the name \"Dionysus\", so swim at \nyour own risk. Puns are a tricky thing to emphatically prove, I know \nfrom experience. Usually, the punned terms and names have a ready casual \nassociation as well. But Inire is another matter. In answer to your \nquestion, I can't think of another instance in which Wolfe breaks his \nestablished naming precedents so emphatically...and well...*badly*. So I \nsay Inire's singularity is part of the argument FOR a word game in this \ninstance.\n\nThe hierodules Ossipago, Barbatus, and Famulimus are named after minor \ndivine beings or, in Ossipago's case, a minor name for Hera. They are \nnot named for saints (except in that saints are often Christianized \nminor divinities). It is not unreasonable to expect that Inire would be \nnamed for a minor god as well. What if \"Father Inire\" is a malformation \nof the actual name he gave...a name that was difficult for those whom he \nfirst encountered to pronounce or even hear properly. That would explain \nwhy he is the only one with the title \"Father\": When he said \"Fenrir\", \nthey heard \"Father Inire\" or that was an approximation they chose. Just \nas Horn named his new girlfriend \"Seawrack\" because it was close to the \nforeign sounding name she gave. And, as with O,B, & F, \"Fenrir\" would be \na name that suites Inire's role--not in nurturing Severian as they \ndo--but something more final: bringing the New Sun and the end of Urth. \nI guess Fenrir isn't the only possible option but it certainly fits the \nbill. And Fenrir's actions are also associated with the name they gave \nhim: the the Latin \"finire\", meaning \"to end\".\n\nOr perhaps, for Fr Inire's name is a later malformation. The name Fenrir \nwould place him from an ancient Time, as John Watkins suggests: the time \nof Typhon, Erebus, Abia, and the rest when powerful persons were named \nfor monsters, not saints. True, the Cargo in _The Book of the Long Sun_ \nwere named after saints, but they weren't \"powers\". On the other hand, \nTyphon's family certainly took the names of monsters when they became \npowers on the Whorl.\n\nIn _The Book of the Long Sun_ & _The Book of the Short Sun_ a great \n*deal* is made of names, which follow a conscious structure and show the \nconnection of family members---not only based on flower and animal \nconcepts but also on the structure of the names themselves. At one \npoint, Silk mulls his possible brotherhood with Sand in some \nmetaphysical sense because their names both start with \"S\" and have the \nsame number of letters.\n\nTyphon's name itself is stripped from Egyptian Sun mythology as the \nenemy of Osirus. That sets him as a foil against Severian. But then \nneither Osirus's nor Zeus's Typhon had two heads. So that's a kind of \nbreak with precedent as well since it associates him instead with \ncertain Kabbalist figures and with two-faced Janus, the god of doorways \n(which sort of associates him with \"Inire\", doesn't it, since \"inire\" \nmeans \"to enter\"). Typhon's name in _The Book of the Long Sun_ is \"Pas\", \nclaimed to be associated with a term for \"father\": tenuous in any _real_ \nsense, but (I argue) intended to associate him with the god Pan.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B5919.1030207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T18:04:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B4FA2.9030900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 18:23):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What if \"Father Inire\" is a malformation of the actual name he gave...a\nname that was difficult for those whom he first encountered to pronounce\n or even hear properly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite possible, I just mentioned the same for Jonas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon's name itself is stripped from Egyptian Sun mythology as the enemy\nof Osirus. That sets him as a foil against Severian. But then neither\nOsirus's nor Zeus's Typhon had two heads. So that's a kind of break with\nprecedent as well since it associates him instead with certain Kabbalist\nfigures and with two-faced Janus, the god of doorways (which sort of\nassociates him with \"Inire\", doesn't it, since \"inire\" means \"to\nenter\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The thing I don't like with the 'to enter' parsing is that it's an\ninfinitive, though I don't think that's an obstacle. I mean, I don't like it\nbecause I'd rather not have Wolfe resort to an infinitive there, but that\nhas little import on its plausibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon's name in _The Book of the Long Sun_ is \"Pas\", claimed to be\nassociated with a term for \"father\": tenuous in any _real_ sense, but (I\n argue) intended to associate him with the god Pan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Pas was exactly the precendent (well, in fact a postcedent) I was\nthinking of but couldn't put my finger on it. It's not an attested or\ncomposite name, or at least nobody found it out yet, hence the tenative\nconnection to Pan (which I don't like because of the phonetics, but see above)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T19:11:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B5919.1030207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn, I liked your previous post about names. I\nalso think A.P. Marques raises a legitimate concern about a Fenrir\norigin. Other authors are likely to distort to disguise a mythological \nname but Wolfe seems to prefer retaining the orginal name and distorting\nthe character for disguise. So we probably need a real version of \"Inire\"\nto understand the meaning/origin of the name.\n \nI was remembering that Borski observed that Hiero-types are given Roman\nnames while maybe monsters get the Greek names or something like that. I\nwas doing a search to refresh my memory and bumped into this description of\nInuus-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In ancient Roman religion, Inuus was a god, or aspect of a god, who embodied\ncopulation. The evidence for him as a distinct entity is scant. Servius says\nthat Inuus is an epithet of Faunus (Greek Pan), as were Fatuus and Fatulcus,\nnamed from his habit of intercourse with animals, based on the etymology of\nineundum, \"a going in, penetration,\" from inire,[1] \"to enter\" in the sexual\nsense.[2] " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuus\n\n \nI'd seen the \"to enter\" meaning of \"inire\" mentioned before but not so much \nthat it might be a specifically sexual reference. The mention of mating with\nanimals is rather intriguing to me since I am exploring the possibility that \nFather Inire has sexually acted on his attraction to young girls to the point\nof mating with most/all of the female members of Severian's family, including\nhis own daughters. Perhaps \"mating with animals\" does not mean the same thing\nto a hiero race being that we would take it to mean.....\n \nOn the other hand, considering the man-apes in the cave and the dog-men guarding\nthe gold wagon, maybe it does.\n \nI am thinking the connection of Inuus/Inire to Faunus and Pan/Pas (the pas version\nbeing the origin of \"pastoral\") might be even more interesting for you. \n \nWho was it that was recently suggesting Severian could be a version of Inire recently?\nThat seemed pretty far fetched or even tongue-in-cheek. But I think the idea that Silk\nis a cloned version of Pas is reasonably well accepted maybe? \n \n(I always wondered which of Typhon's heads was Typhon and which was Piaton. \nSilk cloned from Pas would answer that, based on hair color).\n \nAnyway, so if Typhon=Pas=Inire, then the idea of Severian as a some version or \noffspring of Inire becomes....possible? Either way, I must think all this suggests\nthe \"Inire\" epithet for Pan becomes a very good candidate for the origin of the \npadre's name.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T19:25:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some thoughts..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nI'd seen the \"to enter\" meaning of \"inire\" mentioned before but not so much\nthat it might be a specifically sexual reference. The mention of mating\nwith\nanimals is rather intriguing to me since I am exploring the possibility\nthat\nFather Inire has sexually acted on his attraction to young girls to the\npoint\nof mating with most/all of the female members of Severian's family,\nincluding\nhis own daughters. Perhaps \"mating with animals\" does not mean the same\nthing\nto a hiero race being that we would take it to mean.....\n\nI brought it up and missed the (somewhat obvious in retrospect) sexual\nvalence of the word. I would simply add that there's a possibility that the\nmeaning is sexual but not especially descriptive of Inire's personal\nproclivities--he may be interested in mating animals with each other either\nin collaboration with the Heirogrammates breeding program or for a rival\nbreeding program. I don't say this, though, to exclude your\nhypothesis--it's just that this hypothesis is the first reason I've seen to\nseriously consider Inire as sexually interested in humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who was it that was recently suggesting Severian could be a version of\nInire recently?\nThat seemed pretty far fetched or even tongue-in-cheek." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me again, and I was joking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I think the idea that Silk\nis a cloned version of Pas is reasonably well accepted maybe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's one of many reasonable hypotheses. He's unlikely to be a\nstrict clone of Typhon--he's almost certainly genetically enhanced in some\nway--but Typhon's souped-up clone is a good bet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, so if Typhon=Pas=Inire, then the idea of Severian as a some version\nor\noffspring of Inire becomes....possible?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the weak link here is the idea that Typhon and Inire are one and the\nsame. There's maybe some onomastic link, but we have no other reason to\naccept this, and in order to accept it we have to believe some pretty stange\nthings--Typhon preserved himself not only via \"possible rehydration\nresurrection\" and by copying his personality into the Whorl (and maybe other\nships too!) but by finding some way to put his soul in the body of a bent\nold monkey-looking fella? This bent old money-looking Typhon is content to\nbe the power behind the throne, instead of ruling himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way, I must think all this suggests\nthe \"Inire\" epithet for Pan becomes a very good candidate for the origin of\nthe\npadre's name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's certainly worth considering, but we should probably recall that\n\"Typhon,\" the monster, is who the dude is. \"Pas,\" the Pan-derived god, is\nwho he *pretends to be*. If Pas and Inire share a common link to Pan, I\nexpect only the latter is genuine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with\nHotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T19:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B5919.1030207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/7/12 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 18:23):\n\n What if \"Father Inire\" is a malformation of the actual name he gave...a\nname that was difficult for those whom he first encountered to pronounce\n or even hear properly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quite possible, I just mentioned the same for Jonas.\n\n\n Typhon's name itself is stripped from Egyptian Sun mythology as the enemy\nof Osirus. That sets him as a foil against Severian. But then neither\nOsirus's nor Zeus's Typhon had two heads. So that's a kind of break with\nprecedent as well since it associates him instead with certain Kabbalist\nfigures and with two-faced Janus, the god of doorways (which sort of\nassociates him with \"Inire\", doesn't it, since \"inire\" means \"to\nenter\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The thing I don't like with the 'to enter' parsing is that it's an\ninfinitive, though I don't think that's an obstacle. I mean, I don't like\nit\nbecause I'd rather not have Wolfe resort to an infinitive there, but that\nhas little import on its plausibility.\n\n\n Typhon's name in _The Book of the Long Sun_ is \"Pas\", claimed to be\nassociated with a term for \"father\": tenuous in any _real_ sense, but (I\n argue) intended to associate him with the god Pan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Pas was exactly the precendent (well, in fact a postcedent) I was\nthinking of but couldn't put my finger on it. It's not an attested or\ncomposite name, or at least nobody found it out yet, hence the tenative\nconnection to Pan (which I don't like because of the phonetics, but see\nabove)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe makes the connection of Pas and Pan (\"all\") explicit.\nWhen Scylla possesses Chenille she explains that the gods are Pas's family,\nsaying \"with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name\nmeant--and the boss over everybody.\" (LotLS, ch 11)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B7191.3030006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T19:48:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/12/2010 8:44 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hm...let me make a distinction in terms: \"chained to a rock\", not\n\"marooned\" there. And by associating Fr Inire with Fenrir, I do not\nintend to say that Fr Inire was captured and forced to stay on Urth by\nsome means physical means" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the possibility of Fenrir as a name origin for Fr. Inire too. I\nalso agree that suggesting Inire could escape Urth whenever he wanted is\nnot capturing the spirit of the suggestion. One might similarly suggest\nthat Moses could have just gone down from Mt. Nebo and walked into The\nPromised Land whenvever he pleased despite what God told him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the fettered Fenrir\nwas tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty station and\ncommands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\nHeimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in distant\nplaces on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n\"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet!\n\nBut I don't think this makes Father Inire part Heimdall or part of\nFenrir the way Frog is very much part Mowgli, just that letting people\nidentify their concerns with an exalted parallel is what makes myth and\nlegend endure." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B769D.6020304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am thinking the connection of Inuus/Inire to Faunus and Pan/Pas (the pas version\nbeing the origin of \"pastoral\") might be even more interesting for you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do! I like a lot. \"Inuus\" (the enterer) links to Inire's name, to \nTyphon as Pan, and to Typhon as the two faced Janus, god of doorways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, so if Typhon=Pas=Inire, then the idea of Severian as a some version or\noffspring of Inire becomes....possible? Either way, I must think all this suggests\nthe \"Inire\" epithet for Pan becomes a very good candidate for the origin of the\npadre's name.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Inire=Inuus, then it would follow that Father is a literal title. But \nthe obvious question is \"father of whom or what?\"\n\nTyphon? Ymar? Ouen? All of them? I recall that Don Doggett posited that \nSev was a clone of one of those black beans in the story of \"Spring \nWind\" (Typhon). But where is Inire in the old stories? It's moments like \nthese when we realize how little we know about the hierodules. There's \ntoo many options in this line of inquiry. We need another clue!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other authors are likely to distort to disguise a mythological\nname but Wolfe seems to prefer retaining the orginal name and distorting\nthe character for disguise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true, generally. Although we do have the example of Seawrack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mention of mating with animals is rather intriguing to me since I am\nexploring the possibility that Father Inire has sexually acted on his\nattraction to young girls to the point of mating with most/all of the\nfemale members of Severian's family, including his own daughters.\nPerhaps \"mating with animals\" does not mean the same thing to a hiero\nrace being that we would take it to mean....." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea of Inire mating with humans seems far-fetched except that Wolfe \nreally likes the idea of interspecies and apparent- interspecies mating. \nIn \"Fifth Head\", Sandwalker (apparently) has a cat for a girlfriend. And \nin An Evil Guest, the Woldercons mate and breed across species. In the \nBook of the Short Sun, Jahlee the inhuma accompanies the Rajan to Urth \nin the form of a beautiful woman and has as much sex as possible. It's a \nfaeryworld/mythical motif that seems to appeal to Wolfe. So, yeah, this \nis possible. In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young \nwomen...not for sex per se but strictly for procreation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I always wondered which of Typhon's heads was Typhon and which was Piaton.\nSilk cloned from Pas would answer that, based on hair color).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall that Sev determines this in his conversation with Typhon in UotNS.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B769D.6020304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(I always wondered which of Typhon's heads was Typhon and which was\nPiaton.\nSilk cloned from Pas would answer that, based on hair color)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recall that Sev determines this in his conversation with Typhon in UotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmmm..... the one that talks is Typhon. Piaton is unable to speak\nbut mouths a message to Severian.\n\nThere is enough information to determine the rest from that fact." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:18:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B769D.6020304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nThe idea of Inire mating with humans seems far-fetched except that Wolfe \nreally likes the idea of interspecies and apparent- interspecies mating. \nIn \"Fifth Head\", Sandwalker (apparently) has a cat for a girlfriend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure I missed that bit!\n\nAFAIK Seven Girls Waiting is Sandwalker's only lover in the story, and she \nis no cat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And in An Evil Guest, the Woldercons mate and breed across species. In the \nBook of the Short Sun, Jahlee the inhuma accompanies the Rajan to Urth in \nthe form of a beautiful woman and has as much sex as possible. It's a \nfaeryworld/mythical motif that seems to appeal to Wolfe. So, yeah, this is \npossible. In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young \nwomen...not for sex per se but strictly for procreation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:22:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIn Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young women...not\nfor sex per se but strictly for procreation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You forget the \"control\" \"brothers.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B7995.5030307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:22:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The idea of Inire mating with humans seems far-fetched except that \nWolfe really likes the idea of interspecies and apparent- \ninterspecies mating. In \"Fifth Head\", Sandwalker (apparently) has a \ncat for a girlfriend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm pretty sure I missed that bit!\n\nAFAIK Seven Girls Waiting is Sandwalker's only lover in the story, and \nshe is no cat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops! I meant V.R.T." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B7ABC.9020802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:27:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young women...not\nfor sex per se but strictly for procreation.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My argument is that Fr Inire's interest in young girls might not be \nPlatonic and yet still be procreative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You forget the \"control\" \"brothers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somehow, I never imagined Maitre making David \"the old fashioned way\". \nYou're right that he could have I suppose. But we don't have any \nexamples of \"controls\" being sold off. So, again, it's not about the \nsex. But, then again, being unstated does not preclude its existence.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B8003.1020501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:50:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B7191.3030006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the fettered Fenrir\nwas tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty station and\ncommands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\nHeimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in distant\nplaces on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n\"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you pull me \nback in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the Norse Janus. The \nlink between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus who was variously \nassociated with all of them. Heimdall, as the father of humanity, fits \nright in there. That leaves us here with reasonable mythological \nassociations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.\n\nThe only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit for \nany this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in one way. \nHe is an important father too...he's the father of the race of wolves. \nAnd, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a mythical river.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B800D.7020308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T20:50:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/12/2010 3:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young women...not\nfor sex per se but strictly for procreation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You forget the \"control\" \"brothers.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And regardless of genetics, the baby has to gestate somewhere. Rather \nthan go to the expense of glassware, nutrients, and telemetery, a \nhealthy broad-hipped woman is naturally suited. And if she's already in \nyour employ, she can go on earning for a couple of trimesters or even \nlater, depending on your clientele." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B83F2.1010903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T21:06:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B7ABC.9020802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My argument is that Fr Inire's interest in young girls might not be \nPlatonic and yet still be procreative. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "might BE Platonic, that is." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T21:33:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B83F2.1010903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as a\npossible pun? (Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:06 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nMy argument is that Fr Inire's interest in young girls might not be\nPlatonic and yet still be procreative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "might BE Platonic, that is.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T21:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reader for Audible.com's audiobook (John Davis, I think)\npronounces it \"in-EER.\" For what it's worth, I always pronounced it\n\"in-EER-ay,\" but I've been told I have a rather thick Texan accent\nthat colors my choice of pronunciations.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:33 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nAll of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as a\npossible pun???(Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)\n\nOn Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:06 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My argument is that Fr Inire's interest in young girls might not be\nPlatonic and yet still be procreative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "might BE Platonic, that is.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B8D70.3040707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T21:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote (12-07-2010 22:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as\na possible pun? (Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like \nsomething else mistranscribed?\n\nThe 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an \nenlgish transalation of a misheard original.\n\n'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r], \n[InI'r at I]?\n\n['] stresses the syllable following it\n[I] short i\n[@] the uh sound in -er\n[i] long i\n[T] th" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B8E37.10508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T21:50:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B769D.6020304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 21:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Inire=Inuus, then it would follow that Father is a literal title. But\nthe obvious question is \"father of whom or what?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always associate Father Inire with Dworkin from Zelazny's Amber novels. \nDworkin is supposed to have fathered the king of Amber through a unicorn. \n(The king was AWOL during the novels.) That would make Inire Typhon's father \nor something." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B985C.6020703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T22:34:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B8E37.10508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/12/2010 4:50 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 21:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Inire=Inuus, then it would follow that Father is a literal title. But\nthe obvious question is \"father of whom or what?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always associate Father Inire with Dworkin from Zelazny's Amber\nnovels. Dworkin is supposed to have fathered the king of Amber through a\nunicorn. (The king was AWOL during the novels.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um....Didn't you think it was kind of odd the way Corwin's henchman \nGamelon from a Shadow was able to one-punch Girard, the biggest, \ntoughest brawler on the true earth?\n\nI see Oberon as being more like Inire: the crafty, hidden manipulator \nand kingmaker, but there's a bit of the old Autarch's multiple guises \nand manipulating both sides as a double-double agent.\n\nBoth series deal with some similar themes, and Zelazny's attitude is \nvery different from Wolfe's, but it is interesting how close the \ninternal attitudes of Corwin and Severian are, while ending up in \nopposite directions. Both acknowledge they are villainous, selfish men \nbut regrettably find themselves the best of a bad lot, but the much more \nself-confident Corwin refuses the throne he'd sought after while the \nself-doubting Severian embraces literal responsibility for everyone on Urth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3B9CBA.9010806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T22:52:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B5919.1030207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given Inire's role with respect to time and mirror portals, the \ninfinitive seems perflectly plausible.\n\nOne might reflect that Severian's name could be taken to be a rather \nobvous pun as well.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BA0A4.3030609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-12T23:09:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B9CBA.9010806@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/12/2010 5:52 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nGiven Inire's role with respect to time and mirror portals, the\ninfinitive seems perflectly plausible.\n\nOne might reflect that Severian's name could be taken to be a rather\nobvous pun as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Bob\" would've been funnier" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BA389.1080500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-12T23:21:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Tzadkiel is the demiurge. There's no doubt about that at \nall---he's the highest of the low, not the lowest of the high. And \nChristian dualism was imported straight from Persia, so ....\n\nHe's not Satan though---that's merely a Muslim insult.\n\nI doubt it was Patrick O'Brien, but I'm curious as to the reference. \nDavid Chacko? Edward D. Hoch?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\nFinally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging \nme. When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a \nno-good, it put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that \nI'd read of (in a Patrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some \nmiddle-Eastern sect. Tzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as \npeacock-ish.\n\nAnyway, here he is, the Peacock Angel of the Yazidis: \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus The Peacock Angel of the \nYazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis (\"the liar\"), \nexcept for the Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the \nfavored status of Man.\n \nWouldn't surprise me at all if Wolfe had this bird and the Yazidi's in \nmind.\n \nNo, I don't think that BOTNS is intended as a Yazidi gospel :)\n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BA8C4.40507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-12T23:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C373B68.3000506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume that there are so few \"people\" left on Urth (subtract the \nnot-quite-human and failed Ascians, who may well control the rest of the \nplanet, and some outlying tribes) that this is not a real concern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThis is worth pursuing but I think there are a number of problems with \nit.\n\nIf Tzadkiel is honest, his intent is to renew the planet and give \nHumanity a new chance. If there is an afterlife then drowning almost \neveryone isn't such a catastrophe as it might seem. The fact is that \nthe world is in dire need of moral cleansing, not only terraforming, \nand I don't see how you achieve the former without some global \ndisaster that at once decimates the population and changes the natural \nenvironment. The new world will have a chance to be good.\n\nIf Tzadkiel is a liar, then I don't see what does he gain by \ndestroying the world. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness, but \nI don't find it convincing that he would take all that trouble just to \nhave a 5 minute massacre sport. We tend to associate evil with \nselfishness, and to annihilate your potential servants makes little \nsense selfishly. And if the intent is to take pleasure in killing \nthem, then a global drowning is possibly one of the least interesting \nmethods - quick and clean. If otoh he wishes to wipe out Humanity for \nwhatever reason, giving a renewed planet to a reduced population seems \nto run counter to the objective.\n\nMoreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world, why \nnot just do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't have that \npower all by himself, then whoever did have the power is calling the \nshots, not Tzakdiel.\n\nYou mention Severian could have asked for the population to be \nevacuated. Well, could the building of the Whorl have been done not \nout of fear that the sun would die out, but that the flood could be \nirreparably deleterious? And where would you take all those wicked \npeople, and how would you reform them? If it were easy, what would a \nnew Earth be needed for? In the dying earth future, my impression is \nthat the population had been steadily declining for ages.\n\nDoes Severian not asking for an evacuation imply that he is evil as \nwell? I suppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's way \nof presenting things that such a question doesn't even cross his mind.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BBB34.8000904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T01:02:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. And this does not make Tzadkiel evil, but he is not good either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I too was horrified by the flood in TUotNS (though I'd stopped enjoying the book\nlong before that because I felt the writing was far below Wolfe's standard).\nThe afterlife doesn't mitigate the disaster unless the victims got as good a\nchance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed. True, the Bible\nsays God caused a flood, but he seems to have thought it was a bad idea\nafterwards, which he apparently didn't after the flood Severian caused.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is intended to be horrible.\n\nI also think that there's an important point you're missing -- God\ndoesn't cause this flood; Severian and the Hiero(foo)s do. God\nresponded to the Noachian flood by promising that he would never again\ndestroy the world this way; but he doesn't promise that creatures\nwon't do likewise.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T01:20:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B8D70.3040707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote (12-07-2010 22:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as\na possible pun? (Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like something else mistranscribed?\n\nThe 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an enlgish transalation of a misheard original.\n\n'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r], [InI'r at I]?\n\n['] stresses the syllable following it\n[I] short i\n[@] the uh sound in -er\n[i] long i\n[T] th" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always assumed it's pronounced:\n\nFAH-thur in-AYr (aka father-in-ire)\n\nno?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BC23C.3000802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T01:32:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B4FA2.9030900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. I knew \"inire\" but I did not know \"finire.\" That's plenty of \nsolution for me.\n\nBut I agree that these are not \"real\" names. Inire probably has his own \nname, which we don't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I'm the guy who argues that the word \"inhuma\" comes from a \ncomplex and multi-layered word association with the name \"Dionysus\", \nso swim at your own risk. Puns are a tricky thing to emphatically \nprove, I know from experience. Usually, the punned terms and names \nhave a ready casual association as well. But Inire is another matter. \nIn answer to your question, I can't think of another instance in which \nWolfe breaks his established naming precedents so emphatically...and \nwell...*badly*. So I say Inire's singularity is part of the argument \nFOR a word game in this instance.\n\nThe hierodules Ossipago, Barbatus, and Famulimus are named after minor \ndivine beings or, in Ossipago's case, a minor name for Hera. They are \nnot named for saints (except in that saints are often Christianized \nminor divinities). It is not unreasonable to expect that Inire would \nbe named for a minor god as well. What if \"Father Inire\" is a \nmalformation of the actual name he gave...a name that was difficult \nfor those whom he first encountered to pronounce or even hear \nproperly. That would explain why he is the only one with the title \n\"Father\": When he said \"Fenrir\", they heard \"Father Inire\" or that was \nan approximation they chose. Just as Horn named his new girlfriend \n\"Seawrack\" because it was close to the foreign sounding name she gave. \nAnd, as with O,B, & F, \"Fenrir\" would be a name that suites Inire's \nrole--not in nurturing Severian as they do--but something more final: \nbringing the New Sun and the end of Urth. I guess Fenrir isn't the \nonly possible option but it certainly fits the bill. And Fenrir's \nactions are also associated with the name they gave him: the the Latin \n\"finire\", meaning \"to end\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BC915.7060905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T02:01:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jul 12, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote (12-07-2010 22:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as\na possible pun? (Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like something else mistranscribed?\n\nThe 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an enlgish transalation of a misheard original.\n\n'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r], [InI'r at I]?\n\n['] stresses the syllable following it\n[I] short i\n[@] the uh sound in -er\n[i] long i\n[T] th" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always assumed it's pronounced:\n\nFAH-thur in-AYr (aka father-in-ire)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I.e. ['fAT at rI'naI at r]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LH says an audiobook has in-EER [I'ni at r] while his? own pronunciation is \nin-EER-ay [I'ni at re].\n\nI default to your pronunciation as well, but something about the name always \nmakes me think of [I'ni at r] as an alternative (maybe it's because that kind \nof rhymes with vizier)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T06:57:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C3BA389.1080500@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net on behalf of David Stockhoff\nSent: Tue 13/07/2010 00:21\nTo: The Urth Mailing List" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus\nI doubt it was Patrick O'Brien, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was\n\n - hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T10:18:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Andy Robertson\nwrote:\n-----Original Message-----\nM.T.- When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a\nno-good,\nit put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a\nPatrick O'Brien novel?)\n\n\nIt's in TREASONS HARBOUR.\n\nBut it may be worth noting Malek Taus was Lovecraft's private epistolary\ntitle for his friend E Hoffman Price.\n\nWolfe might possibly have picked up on this, being an HPL reader and fan,\nbut even if not it may amuse.\n\nThanks for that. I'd like to check out some EHP - anything you would\nrecommend?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T10:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net on behalf of Mr Thalassocrat" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that. I'd like to check out some EHP - anything you would\nrecommend?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alas, no. I only know of him thru HPL's letters. He seems to have been talented hack.\n\n- hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T14:12:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B8003.1020501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the fettered Fenrir\nwas tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty station and\ncommands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\nHeimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in distant\nplaces on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n\"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you pull me back\nin. You're right about Heimdall because he's the Norse Janus. The link\nbetween Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus who was variously associated with\nall of them. Heimdall, as the father of humanity, fits right in there. That\nleaves us here with reasonable mythological associations for Typhon,\nSeverian, and Inire.\n\nThe only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit for any\nthis. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in one way. He is an\nimportant father too...he's the father of the race of wolves. And, yeah, his\nrock is Gyoll which is also a mythical river." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C7CA8.5040407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T14:48:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch \nfor a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are \nenough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr. \nInire.\" He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a \nmystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.\n\nI'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nOn Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n\n That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<513AA304-0082-4C32-BBFD-A3B3A25D294B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T14:59:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C7CA8.5040407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fascinating.\n\nI only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\n\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\n\nI, Fenrir\n\nor we get back to origins:\n\nFenrir I\n\nAs in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned descendants.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch for a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are enough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr. Inire.\" He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a mystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.\n\nI'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n\n That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:02:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<513AA304-0082-4C32-BBFD-A3B3A25D294B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nFascinating.\n\nI only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\n\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\n\nI, Fenrir" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plausible. We live in a universe in which J.K. Rowling indulges in similar\ngames." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or we get back to origins:\n\nFenrir I\n\nAs in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned\ndescendants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. Clones who don't look much like the original?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch for\na wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are\nenough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr. Inire.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a mystery, he\nfacilitates the end with the last Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C8163.7020307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:08:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<513AA304-0082-4C32-BBFD-A3B3A25D294B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm very impressed with how you snuck that conclusion in there. ;)\n\nGranted, the wolf is not critical to the story---almost a tease. But I \nthink a cacogen hitching his star, so to speak, to Ushas is just similar \nenough to being chained to a rock when you have the entire universe open \nto you as master of Doors, to be impossible to ignore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nFascinating.\n\nI only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\n\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\n\nI, Fenrir\n\nor we get back to origins:\n\nFenrir I\n\nAs in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned descendants.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch for a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are enough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr. Inire.\" He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a mystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.\n\nI'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n\n That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1526b54d42cfdddc23b0846f987450cd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:10:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<513AA304-0082-4C32-BBFD-A3B3A25D294B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "F E N R I R\nE X O A T E\nN O X I O S\nR A I L M N\nI T O M A C\nR E S N C E\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fascinating.\n\nI only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\n\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\n\nI, Fenrir\n\nor we get back to origins:\n\nFenrir I\n\nAs in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned\ndescendants.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch\nfor a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are\nenough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr.\nInire.\" He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a\nmystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.\n\nI'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n\n That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person\nyet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and\nInire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<028229A7-3745-4A6B-B724-E4C6506D55B0@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<1526b54d42cfdddc23b0846f987450cd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to solve the puzzle, Pat. I mean buy a vowel. No wait...\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 13, 2010, at 11:10 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nF E N R I R\nE X O A T E\nN O X I O S\nR A I L M N\nI T O M A C\nR E S N C E\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fascinating.\n\nI only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\n\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\n\nI, Fenrir\n\nor we get back to origins:\n\nFenrir I\n\nAs in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned\ndescendants.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch\nfor a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are\nenough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr.\nInire.\" He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a\nmystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.\n\nI'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n\n That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person\nyet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and\nInire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C8A25.7040304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:45:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<513AA304-0082-4C32-BBFD-A3B3A25D294B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 9:59 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nFascinating. I only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\nI, Fenrir\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As has been noted before, tBotNS has references to Robert Graves' \"I, \nClaudius\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 9:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) \nare enough to start us off on that path," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with \nparallels to Christ.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:47:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<028229A7-3745-4A6B-B724-E4C6506D55B0@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a particularly tasty one.\n\nYou never know where these things are going.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like to solve the puzzle, Pat. I mean buy a vowel. No wait...\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 11:10 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "F E N R I R\nE X O A T E\nN O X I O S\nR A I L M N\nI T O M A C\nR E S N C E\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fascinating.\n\nI only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\n\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\n\nI, Fenrir\n\nor we get back to origins:\n\nFenrir I\n\nAs in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned\ndescendants.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch\nfor a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.\n\nThe words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end)\nare\nenough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical \"Fr.\nInire.\" He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a\nmystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.\n\nI'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n\n That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the\n fettered Fenrir\n was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty\n station and\n commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more\nlike\n Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in\n distant\n places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also\nthe\n \"Father\" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person\nyet\n\n\n Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you\n pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the\n Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus\n who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the\n father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with\n reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and\nInire.\n\n The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit\n for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in\n one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the\n race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a\n mythical river.\n\n\nFenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:51:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C8A25.7040304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with parallels\nto Christ.\n\nHeh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire.\n\nSeverian.\n\nThecla.\n\nThere's another trinity for you. Quite literally the father who created the\nAutarchy and brought it to its end, his (presumably figurative) son, the\nscion of the father's ages of planning and manipulation (including possibly\ngenetic manipulation?) and the pretty-literal ghost.\n\nI kind of like the notion that, contra Witz, Severian is the logos of Inire,\nnot the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C8E9D.8030709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:04:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C8A25.7040304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah.\n\n\"I, the Alpha/Omega.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/13/2010 9:59 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fascinating. I only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.\n\nF E N R I R\nF R I N I R E\n\nOne too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:\nI, Fenrir\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As has been noted before, tBotNS has references to Robert Graves' \"I, \nClaudius\".\n\n\nOn 7/13/2010 9:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) \nare enough to start us off on that path," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with \nparallels to Christ.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C8FA6.5090402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:09:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But who's the archon of this universe? Inire, appropriately mysterious \nand aged as a Titan, or Tzadkiel, violator of all known laws of scale \nand appearance? Is one ruler below and the other ruler above?\n\nThe Titans rebelled against Time. Hmm..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one\n with parallels to Christ.\n\nHeh.\n \nInire.\n \nSeverian.\n \nThecla.\n \nThere's another trinity for you. Quite literally the father who \ncreated the Autarchy and brought it to its end, his (presumably \nfigurative) son, the scion of the father's ages of planning and \nmanipulation (including possibly genetic manipulation?) and the \npretty-literal ghost.\n \nI kind of like the notion that, contra Witz, Severian is the logos of \nInire, not the Increate.\n \n\n u+16b9\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C8FA6.5090402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut who's the archon of this universe? Inire, appropriately mysterious and\naged as a Titan, or Tzadkiel, violator of all known laws of scale and\nappearance? Is one ruler below and the other ruler above?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's as simple as this: Inire is the archon of Urth and Tzadkiel is\nthe archon of Briah.\n\nOn the pure level of plot, I think we can conclude that Tzadkiel's agenda\nand Inire's are pretty similar. Tzadkiel wants Briah's human beings to\nevolve into Hieros. He doesn't care which line of humanity does it, and he\ndoesn't need them all to turn into Hieros--he just needs some Hieros.\n\nInire wants the humans on Urth to stick around. Because of the black hole\nin the sun, that requires propitiating Tzadkiel. So his long-range goal\n(what the good folks at TvTropes.org would call a \"Xanatos gambit\") is to\nproduce through the Autarchy a savior figure who will convince Tzadkiel that\nUrth is worth keeping around. He's advancing Tzadkiel's goals, although\nmaybe for his own reasons. This raises two questions:\n\n1) Does Inire care about turning humans into Hieros?\n\n2) Are there Inire-esque figures on other human-populated planets? Is\nthere a crooked old Hierodule winding his way to Green or Blue even as the\nShort Sun ends?\n\nI dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Titans rebelled against Time. Hmm...\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n\n It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one\n with parallels to Christ.\n\nHeh.\n Inire.\n Severian.\n Thecla.\n There's another trinity for you. Quite literally the father who created\nthe Autarchy and brought it to its end, his (presumably figurative) son, the\nscion of the father's ages of planning and manipulation (including possibly\ngenetic manipulation?) and the pretty-literal ghost.\n I kind of like the notion that, contra Witz, Severian is the logos of\nInire, not the Increate.\n\n u+16b9\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<676590.776.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:47:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3BC915.7060905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John Watkins wrote (12-07-2010 22:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "All of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as\na possible pun? (Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like \nsomething else mistranscribed?\n\nThe 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an \nenlgish transalation of a misheard original.\n\n'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r], \n[InI'r at I]?\n\n['] stresses the syllable following it\n[I] short i\n[@] the uh sound in -er\n[i] long i" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know \"long i\" in American English means the vowel in \"eye\", /aI/? We use \n\"long\" for the vowel sounds that \"say their names\". The usage in other \nEnglish-speaking is different, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[T] th" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(You want /D/ for the \"th\" in \"father\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always assumed it's pronounced:\n\nFAH-thur in-AYr (aka father-in-ire)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I.e. ['fAT at rI'naI at r]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LH says an audiobook has in-EER [I'ni at r] while his? own pronunciation is \nin-EER-ay [I'ni at re]." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with Lane: I pronounce it in foreign, /@n'ireI/. (I don't have a Texas \naccent.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:54:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<676590.776.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?(I don't have a Texas\naccent.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one's perfect.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6e25f4028d521208eb958ffced5d29b6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:00:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "?(I don't have a Texas\naccent.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No one's perfect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many Texans seem to believe themselves so, possibly through confusion of\nmeaning of the terms loud and perfect.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CBB8A.5020706@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:16:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C8A25.7040304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The words \"inire\" and \"finire\" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) \nare enough to start us off on that path," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with \nparallels to Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incidentally, \"finire\" means \"to end\" and also \"to limit\". Terminus Est \nalso has these dual meanings, essentially.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CBD15.7040501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:23:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<6e25f4028d521208eb958ffced5d29b6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Referring to their shirts? You may be thinking of Hawaiians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n (I don't have a Texas\naccent.)\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No one's perfect.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many Texans seem to believe themselves so, possibly through confusion of\nmeaning of the terms loud and perfect.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CBDF7.5010302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:26:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CBD15.7040501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " (I don't have a Texas\naccent.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No one's perfect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Many Texans seem to believe themselves so, possibly through confusion of\nmeaning of the terms loud and perfect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ironic. \"Loud\" is the stereotype that Texans and other southerners have \nof yankees. And it is the stereotype that Europeans have of Americans. \nPerhaps if you don't like the idea of someone, anything they say is too \nloud.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:36:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CBDF7.5010302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Texans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'.\"\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CC1F1.9040007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:43:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're on thing ice, Lane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\nTexans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'.\"\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100713-0, 07/13/2010\nTested on: 7/13/2010 3:38:09 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<448126.99210.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:45:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess you've all heard what was labeled as one of the 2 funniest jokes in a recent survey..\n\nA Texan moves to NYC and goes to a local bar. He turns to the man in a business suit next him and says in a friendly manner\n\n\"Where are you from?\"\n\nThe guy in the suit turns to him and says in a condescending manner\n\n\"I am from where people don't end their sentences with prepositions.\"\n\nAnd the Texan replies....\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Lane Haygood wrote:\n\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) lots of stuff\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 12:36 PM\n\nTexans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'.\"\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CC275.70404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T19:45:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Texans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In this case, I meant \"southerners\" in the sense of any state that was \non the right side of the Great Cause. ;-) That is, those who would use \nthe term \"yankee\" as I did. My family have called themselves Texans \nsince at least sometime shortly after it stopped being Mexico, so I \nrealized they don't like being lumped with Oklahoma, Louisiana, and \nparts beyond. No offense was intended, I assure you.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:00:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CC275.70404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know, I know. I'm pullin' y'all's legs.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<403dc88d17195ce990fd3c084d9b4189.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:14:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CBDF7.5010302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talks to much is the stereotype people from south AZ have of everyone else.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " (I don't have a Texas\naccent.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No one's perfect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Many Texans seem to believe themselves so, possibly through confusion\nof\nmeaning of the terms loud and perfect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ironic. \"Loud\" is the stereotype that Texans and other southerners have\nof yankees. And it is the stereotype that Europeans have of Americans.\nPerhaps if you don't like the idea of someone, anything they say is too\nloud.\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1c8ba4713f82c4c6f67f8ae0836c5b53.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:16:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Texans aren't Southerners." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As everyone from the South and Southwest agrees." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That and they want to mess everything up.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:19:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CC275.70404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Supporters of the right are Southerners, wherever and whenever born.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Texans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case, I meant \"southerners\" in the sense of any state that was\non the right side of the Great Cause. ;-) That is, those who would use\nthe term \"yankee\" as I did. My family have called themselves Texans\nsince at least sometime shortly after it stopped being Mexico, so I\nrealized they don't like being lumped with Oklahoma, Louisiana, and\nparts beyond. No offense was intended, I assure you.\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2119052153-1279052438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2113593909-@bda615.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:20:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one's gonna post the punch line???\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:19:10 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) lots of stuff\n\nSupporters of the right are Southerners, wherever and whenever born.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Texans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case, I meant \"southerners\" in the sense of any state that was\non the right side of the Great Cause. ;-) That is, those who would use\nthe term \"yankee\" as I did. My family have called themselves Texans\nsince at least sometime shortly after it stopped being Mexico, so I\nrealized they don't like being lumped with Oklahoma, Louisiana, and\nparts beyond. No offense was intended, I assure you.\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<884871.77283.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:51:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<2119052153-1279052438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2113593909-@bda615.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"hammstu at sbcglobal.net\" \nNo one's gonna post the punch line???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The punch line of the preposition joke? Something like \"Okay, where are you \nfrom, asshole?\"\n\nI first heard this thirty years ago with Harvard instead of New York City, a \n\"hick\" or \"redneck\" instead of a Texan (I think), and \"Whatchoo lookin' at?\" as \nthe question. I like that better, since no one in his or her right mind would \n\"correct\" the grammar of \"Where are you from?\" and pedantry is a better \nstereotype for Harvard than for New York.\n\nOf course, it would be off-topic to mention that New Mexico has fought off three \ninvasions from Texas, especially since we're now happy to allow Texans in as \nlong as they pay.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T21:05:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:24 PM, Mr Thalassocrat\nwrote:\n\n\nAnyway, if Wolfe was thinking along those lines & did make use of aspects\nof the Melek Taus figure, I guess that use was pretty specific to the\nconcerns of BOTNS/UOTNS. The closest figure I can think of in other works is\nThe Lowest God from W-K, but even though he may well be a de-winged angel,\nhe fits a different \"error\" (ie \"lowest = highest\", rather than \"wrong\nhighest\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for bringing this up, this gives me some food for thought with regard\nto the \"down is up\" thing I am on about lately.\n\nE.g. Typhon throws Severian into the sled, they plummet downwards, then\narrive at the very top of Typon's mountain fastness, and Severian asks\nTyphon how they could have come up so high, when they had just fallen so\nfar." } ] }, { "message_id": "<592290.13102.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T21:17:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<884871.77283.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha...!\n\n???????? ? ? \n\n\n\n--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) lots of stuff\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 1:51 PM\nFrom: \"hammstu at sbcglobal.net\" \nNo one's gonna post the punch line???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The punch line of the preposition joke? Something like \"Okay, where are you \nfrom, asshole?\"\n\nI first heard this thirty years ago with Harvard instead of New York City, a \n\"hick\" or \"redneck\" instead of a Texan (I think), and \"Whatchoo lookin' at?\" as \nthe question. I like that better, since no one in his or her right mind would \n\"correct\" the grammar of \"Where are you from?\" and pedantry is a better \nstereotype for Harvard than for New York.\n\nOf course, it would be off-topic to mention that New Mexico has fought off three \ninvasions from Texas, especially since we're now happy to allow Texans in as \nlong as they pay.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n? ? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rob Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T21:47:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nThanks for bringing this up, this gives me some food for thought with regard\nto the \"down is up\" thing I am on about lately.\n\nE.g. Typhon throws Severian into the sled, they plummet downwards, then\narrive at the very top of Typon's mountain fastness, and Severian asks\nTyphon how they could have come up so high, when they had just fallen so\nfar." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember correctly, the Autarch's craft employs \"anti-iron\" as\nsome sort of contra-terrene matter that repels gravity. Maybe this\nsled is made of such stuff and they are facing backwards?\n\nCautiously,\n\nRob" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3D02AC.2020400@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T00:19:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<448126.99210.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/13/2010 02:45 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI guess you've all heard what was labeled as one of the 2 funniest \njokes in a recent survey..\n\nA Texan moves to NYC and goes to a local bar. He turns to the man in a \nbusiness suit next him and says in a friendly manner\n\n\"Where are you from?\"\n\nThe guy in the suit turns to him and says in a condescending manner\n\n\"I am from where people don't end their sentences with prepositions.\"\n\nAnd the Texan replies...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Pray pardon me for my lack of grammar, sir. Where are you from, asshole?\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T02:53:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Rob Thornton wrote:\nCould\n\nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Cliff Judge \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks for bringing this up, this gives me some food for thought with\nregard\nto the \"down is up\" thing I am on about lately.\n\nE.g. Typhon throws Severian into the sled, they plummet downwards, then\narrive at the very top of Typon's mountain fastness, and Severian asks\nTyphon how they could have come up so high, when they had just fallen so\nfar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I remember correctly, the Autarch's craft employs \"anti-iron\" as\nsome sort of contra-terrene matter that repels gravity. Maybe this\nsled is made of such stuff and they are facing backwards?\n\nCautiously,\n\nRob" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course. But I would never think a nifty science-fictioney reading would\npreclude an allegorical or symbolic reading." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3D37A7.2000107@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T04:05:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 9:53 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\n On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Cliff Judge > wrote:\n\n > Thanks for bringing this up, this gives me some food for thought\n with regard\n > to the \"down is up\" thing I am on about lately.\n >\n > E.g. Typhon throws Severian into the sled, they plummet\n downwards, then\n > arrive at the very top of Typon's mountain fastness, and Severian\n asks\n > Typhon how they could have come up so high, when they had just\n fallen so\n > far.\n\n If I remember correctly, the Autarch's craft employs \"anti-iron\" as\n some sort of contra-terrene matter that repels gravity. Maybe this\n sled is made of such stuff and they are facing backwards?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon responds, \"Why should gravity serve Urth, when it can serve \nTyphon?\" I interpret this as an adjustable antigravity effect, where the \nsled and Severian's viscera fall freely as the acceleration of gravity \nis reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to cease rising at \nits destination and then lock in place. The flier's buoyancy seems to be \nalways present, but uses conventional action-reaction propulsion to \nmove, causing the screaming noise that accompanies the hasty departure \nof of Vodalus , and explaining why people riding in them don't feel as \nthough they are falling.\n\nReverse-matter buoyancy has made something of a comeback with Robert L. \nForeward's notion of \"negative mass\", but at the time gravity-reversal \nof antimatter was an obsoleted SF device since word had gotten around \nthe readership that antimatter was only electrically reversed, not \ngravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use of this outdated concept \nalongside a similar but distinct outdted antigravity concept makes me \nwonder if the mirror-traveling trick of accelerating light and the \nreflected objects across or beyond the universe was also a plot device \npreviously used band then discarded by previous authors." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3DA034.8000003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-14T11:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C3D37A7.2000107@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. I \nhad no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has the \neffect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like ballistae and \nwater clocks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nTyphon responds, \"Why should gravity serve Urth, when it can serve \nTyphon?\" I interpret this as an adjustable antigravity effect, where \nthe sled and Severian's viscera fall freely as the acceleration of \ngravity is reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to cease \nrising at its destination and then lock in place. The flier's buoyancy \nseems to be always present, but uses conventional action-reaction \npropulsion to move, causing the screaming noise that accompanies the \nhasty departure of of Vodalus , and explaining why people riding in \nthem don't feel as though they are falling.\n\nReverse-matter buoyancy has made something of a comeback with Robert \nL. Foreward's notion of \"negative mass\", but at the time \ngravity-reversal of antimatter was an obsoleted SF device since word \nhad gotten around the readership that antimatter was only electrically \nreversed, not gravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use of this outdated \nconcept alongside a similar but distinct outdted antigravity concept \nmakes me wonder if the mirror-traveling trick of accelerating light \nand the reflected objects across or beyond the universe was also a \nplot device previously used band then discarded by previous authors." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-14T12:00:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C3DA034.8000003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders has an anti-gravity belt too.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:32 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus\nI always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. I \nhad no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has the \neffect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like ballistae and \nwater clocks.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon responds, \"Why should gravity serve Urth, when it can serve \nTyphon?\" I interpret this as an adjustable antigravity effect, where \nthe sled and Severian's viscera fall freely as the acceleration of \ngravity is reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to cease \nrising at its destination and then lock in place. The flier's buoyancy \nseems to be always present, but uses conventional action-reaction \npropulsion to move, causing the screaming noise that accompanies the \nhasty departure of of Vodalus , and explaining why people riding in \nthem don't feel as though they are falling.\n\nReverse-matter buoyancy has made something of a comeback with Robert \nL. Foreward's notion of \"negative mass\", but at the time \ngravity-reversal of antimatter was an obsoleted SF device since word \nhad gotten around the readership that antimatter was only electrically \nreversed, not gravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use of this outdated \nconcept alongside a similar but distinct outdted antigravity concept \nmakes me wonder if the mirror-traveling trick of accelerating light \nand the reflected objects across or beyond the universe was also a \nplot device previously used band then discarded by previous authors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3DAD67.7000204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-14T12:28:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good one!\n\nI should say, not just \"pulp cliches\" but Golden Age of Science Fiction \ncliches.\n\nI think they are intended to suggest exactly the sense of \"boyish\" \nwonder that they do in fact inspire---but looking back, not forward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nBaldanders has an anti-gravity belt too.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- From: \"David Stockhoff\" \n\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:32 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. \nI had no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has \nthe effect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like \nballistae and water clocks.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon responds, \"Why should gravity serve Urth, when it can serve \nTyphon?\" I interpret this as an adjustable antigravity effect, where \nthe sled and Severian's viscera fall freely as the acceleration of \ngravity is reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to \ncease rising at its destination and then lock in place. The flier's \nbuoyancy seems to be always present, but uses conventional \naction-reaction propulsion to move, causing the screaming noise that \naccompanies the hasty departure of of Vodalus , and explaining why \npeople riding in them don't feel as though they are falling.\n\nReverse-matter buoyancy has made something of a comeback with Robert \nL. Foreward's notion of \"negative mass\", but at the time \ngravity-reversal of antimatter was an obsoleted SF device since word \nhad gotten around the readership that antimatter was only \nelectrically reversed, not gravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use \nof this outdated concept alongside a similar but distinct outdted \nantigravity concept makes me wonder if the mirror-traveling trick of \naccelerating light and the reflected objects across or beyond the \nuniverse was also a plot device previously used band then discarded \nby previous authors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3DB3AB.3050303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T12:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<884871.77283.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (13-07-2010 21:51):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I first heard this thirty years ago with Harvard instead of New York City, a\n\"hick\" or \"redneck\" instead of a Texan (I think), and \"Whatchoo lookin' at?\" as\nthe question. I like that better, since no one in his or her right mind would\n\"correct\" the grammar of \"Where are you from?\" and pedantry is a better\nstereotype for Harvard than for New York." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But with \"Whatchoo lookin' at?\" how do tie the answer to the question so neatly?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3DB43B.1070902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T12:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<676590.776.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (13-07-2010 19:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "John Watkins wrote (12-07-2010 22:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "All of the speculation and mystery make me consider \"Father Inquiry\" as\na possible pun? (Assuming it's \"in-ee-rey\" rather than \"in-ire-ay\" or\nsomesuch.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like\nsomething else mistranscribed?\n\nThe 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an\nenlgish transalation of a misheard original.\n\n'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r],\n[InI'r at I]?\n\n['] stresses the syllable following it\n[I] short i\n[@] the uh sound in -er\n[i] long i" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know \"long i\" in American English means the vowel in \"eye\", /aI/? We use\n\"long\" for the vowel sounds that \"say their names\". The usage in other\nEnglish-speaking is different, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. Should I have written 'long e', then? I can't bring myself to it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[T] th" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(You want /D/ for the \"th\" in \"father\".)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "D'oh. Of course." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven Bowen", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2010-07-14T18:53:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3B8E37.10508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 21:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Inire=Inuus, then it would follow that Father is a literal \ntitle. But\nthe obvious question is \"father of whom or what?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone remarked on the explanation given in Joyce's APOTAAAYM of \nthe Latin phrase INRI being a schoolboy acrostic for Iron Nails Ran In?\n\nSteve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T19:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Steven Bowen wrote:\n\nHas anyone remarked on the explanation given in Joyce's APOTAAAYM of the\nLatin phrase INRI being a schoolboy acrostic for Iron Nails Ran In?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could have sworn that that's from Ulysses, and it's Bloom thinking it.\nBloom thinks a lot of things about Catholicism that are factually wrong (for\nexample, he also contemplates the \"fact\" that nuns invented barbed wire,\nwhich is of course false.) In fact when I first read the book I felt that\nJoyce was working in anti-Catholic propaganda that he either knew or ought\nto know was false--upon rereading I felt that he was parodying it and\nemphasizing Bloom's status as a cultural outsider. (Not that Joyce isn't\ncriticizing the Church--he is, but he's far too smart to need to resort to\ntelling lies.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63001bc861031e0c707d0cbde5aeff92.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-14T19:14:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "INRI is what is called a formula. It has various readings.\n\nIt may have whatever acrostic meanings in whatever arbitrary languages\npeople wish to assign it.\n\nThere are many such formulae.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 21:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Inire=Inuus, then it would follow that Father is a literal\ntitle. But\nthe obvious question is \"father of whom or what?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone remarked on the explanation given in Joyce's APOTAAAYM of\nthe Latin phrase INRI being a schoolboy acrostic for Iron Nails Ran In?\n\nSteve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E0E7E.8060307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T19:22:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C3DA034.8000003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/2010 6:32 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. I\nhad no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has the\neffect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like ballistae and\nwater clocks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yes, exactly! only more briefly. IIRC, Lem does a bit of this in his \nCYBERIAD." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E1131.50105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T19:34:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "<4C3DAD67.7000204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/2010 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nGood one!\n\nI should say, not just \"pulp cliches\" but Golden Age of Science Fiction\ncliches.\n\nI think they are intended to suggest exactly the sense of \"boyish\"\nwonder that they do in fact inspire---but looking back, not forward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a few latter period ones, like the giant flying robot warriors \nguarding Typhon's mountain citadel. Of course, in the conceit of the \nBook as Dr Talos mentions, their existence in the future inspires people \nto dream about them and write about them in the Golden and Silver Ages!\n\nAnd my earlier objection about how people would pick out a particular \nimage out of the all images from all of time is a bit silly , \nconsidering they're non-physical notional technologies decorating a \nnon-materialist's novel, like complaining that fairies are shown with \nwings of insufficient lifting area." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6cb72c86f171840147367e1f085ea406.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-14T19:37:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnomism", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E0E7E.8060307@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't think of many things I have read which have the same emotional\neffect upon me as Severian, Baldanders and Faustus together on the tower\nin the rain, and the torchlight procession is coming, and Faustus is the\nonly one who sees.\n\nThe last few paragraphs of Dhalgren, possibly.\n\nIt is Gene's perfect take on Borges, in much the same fashion as Lathe of\nHeaven is LeGuin's perfect take on Dick.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/2010 6:32 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. I\nhad no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has the\neffect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like ballistae and\nwater clocks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yes, exactly! only more briefly. IIRC, Lem does a bit of this in his\nCYBERIAD.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4d111a805ef7e105747f6a3197179ac6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-14T19:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe As A Chronographer", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E1131.50105@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a few latter period ones, like the giant flying robot warriors\nguarding Typhon's mountain citadel. Of course, in the conceit of the\nBook as Dr Talos mentions, their existence in the future inspires people\nto dream about them and write about them in the Golden and Silver Ages!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You believe that this is a conceit?\n\nThis is an accurate description of Reality.\n\nIt has happened to me.\n\nAs I have mentioned, long before I read the Book of the New Sun, I would\nhave dreams, hallucinations or visions in which I was going to be taken by\naliens and tested somehow, and that if I failed the test I would be\ncastrated.\n\nThis was a feature of my internal life - and not a pleasant one - from the\nage of ten or so.\n\nI read the Book of the New Sun when it came out. It was immediately\nobvious to me what had happened.\n\nI was born in 1957.\n\nIf this happens in my personal timeline, why should such things not happen\nin the historical timeline?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E32DB.1060501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T21:57:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 2:36 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nTexans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<25e39c6eb87c7e5f873f5a355312f7e1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-14T22:20:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E32DB.1060501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are Mexicans who seceded.\n\nYou people that know a lot kill me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 2:36 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Texans aren't Southerners. And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning\nanyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary \"gs\" to\nthe end of words endin' in \"in'.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T01:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E32DB.1060501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The South refers more to what we call the \"Southeast\" now. Texas was\na part of the Confederacy, but not because we felt any particular\nloyalty to Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas or Georgia. We were\njust a bunch of ig'nant racists that wanted to continue to own people.\n\nIn all seriousness though, Texans do not consider themselves to be\npart of \"the South,\" nor would Southerners admit Texans in to their\nranks willingly. When Texas formed its unique identity, and Texans as\na people, it was as an independent nation.\n\nAnd yes, it was an independent nation of Tejanos that seceded from\nMexico, with a little help from some uh... luminaries... from the\nUnited States. We showed 'em good at San Jacinto (which is pronounced\n\"SAN juh-SIN-tow,\" I tell you what.).\n\nSeriously; as a fellow Texan, I'm sure Mr. Wolfe would agree with me\nin this regard. Even if he did go to that dark and terrible school\nknown as \"A&M.\"\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4bd17a0211d94974afc0d479808303e5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-15T01:53:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wouldn't say anything against Texans.\n\nBasic waste of time to.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The South refers more to what we call the \"Southeast\" now. Texas was\na part of the Confederacy, but not because we felt any particular\nloyalty to Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas or Georgia. We were\njust a bunch of ig'nant racists that wanted to continue to own people.\n\nIn all seriousness though, Texans do not consider themselves to be\npart of \"the South,\" nor would Southerners admit Texans in to their\nranks willingly. When Texas formed its unique identity, and Texans as\na people, it was as an independent nation.\n\nAnd yes, it was an independent nation of Tejanos that seceded from\nMexico, with a little help from some uh... luminaries... from the\nUnited States. We showed 'em good at San Jacinto (which is pronounced\n\"SAN juh-SIN-tow,\" I tell you what.).\n\nSeriously; as a fellow Texan, I'm sure Mr. Wolfe would agree with me\nin this regard. Even if he did go to that dark and terrible school\nknown as \"A&M.\"\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E91A8.4060500@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T04:42:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/14/2010 8:20 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nNot Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The South refers more to what we call the \"Southeast\" now. Texas was\na part of the Confederacy, but not because we felt any particular\nloyalty to Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas or Georgia. We were\njust a bunch of ig'nant racists that wanted to continue to own people.\n\nIn all seriousness though, Texans do not consider themselves to be\npart of \"the South,\" nor would Southerners admit Texans in to their\nranks willingly. When Texas formed its unique identity, and Texans as\na people, it was as an independent nation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two need not be mutually exclusive. The whole Confederate movement \nwas about maintaining the member states' unique identity and destiny as \nmuch as possible. And all the member states suffer from roughly equal \nproportions of disposessed gentry that descend from the finest \ncarpetbagging families as the genuine articles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yes, it was an independent nation of Tejanos that seceded from\nMexico, with a little help from some uh... luminaries... from the\nUnited States. We showed 'em good at San Jacinto (which is pronounced\n\"SAN juh-SIN-tow,\" I tell you what.)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What part of Texas are you from? It's always \"SAN juh-SIN-ta\" 'round here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seriously; as a fellow Texan, I'm sure Mr. Wolfe would agree with me\nin this regard. Even if he did go to that dark and terrible school\nknown as \"A&M.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a born and raised Texan myself, fellow Aggieland matriculant, and no \nother fellow Texans of my acquaintance have ever objected to being \nconsidered \"southerners\". Then again, this is all sampled from the \neastern limb of Texas, which extends hundreds of miles further in \nvarious directions. Technically, it would be 10 miles shorter for me to \nvisit yankees in Chicago than my neighbors in El Paso.\n\nBut perhaps I am biased; my greatgrandmother's maiden name was Davis, \nand I'm not the only Jeff in the family." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T04:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E91A8.4060500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm originally from the Midland/Odessa area, though I went to law\nschool in Waco and UT for undergrad (hence my virulent hatred of\nAggies). I currently live and work in the RGV but my accent is pure\nPermian Basin.\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4c54362b563e5f1e44bb034831c513e7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-15T05:12:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E91A8.4060500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am a good old rebel\nYes that's just what I am\nFor this fair land of freedom\nI do not give a damn\nI'm glad I fought against her\nI only wish we'd won\nAnd I don't want no pardon\nFor anything I done.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/2010 8:20 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The South refers more to what we call the \"Southeast\" now. Texas was\na part of the Confederacy, but not because we felt any particular\nloyalty to Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas or Georgia. We were\njust a bunch of ig'nant racists that wanted to continue to own people.\n\nIn all seriousness though, Texans do not consider themselves to be\npart of \"the South,\" nor would Southerners admit Texans in to their\nranks willingly. When Texas formed its unique identity, and Texans as\na people, it was as an independent nation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The two need not be mutually exclusive. The whole Confederate movement\nwas about maintaining the member states' unique identity and destiny as\nmuch as possible. And all the member states suffer from roughly equal\nproportions of disposessed gentry that descend from the finest\ncarpetbagging families as the genuine articles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And yes, it was an independent nation of Tejanos that seceded from\nMexico, with a little help from some uh... luminaries... from the\nUnited States. We showed 'em good at San Jacinto (which is pronounced\n\"SAN juh-SIN-tow,\" I tell you what.)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What part of Texas are you from? It's always \"SAN juh-SIN-ta\" 'round here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously; as a fellow Texan, I'm sure Mr. Wolfe would agree with me\nin this regard. Even if he did go to that dark and terrible school\nknown as \"A&M.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm a born and raised Texan myself, fellow Aggieland matriculant, and no\nother fellow Texans of my acquaintance have ever objected to being\nconsidered \"southerners\". Then again, this is all sampled from the\neastern limb of Texas, which extends hundreds of miles further in\nvarious directions. Technically, it would be 10 miles shorter for me to\nvisit yankees in Chicago than my neighbors in El Paso.\n\nBut perhaps I am biased; my greatgrandmother's maiden name was Davis,\nand I'm not the only Jeff in the family.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-15T05:15:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I road with Robert E. Lee,\nFor three years, thereabout.\nGot wounded in four places,\nAnd starved at Point Lookout.\nI caught the rheuamtism\nA-campin in the snow.\nBut I killed a chance of yankees\nAnd I'd like to kill some mo.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm originally from the Midland/Odessa area, though I went to law\nschool in Waco and UT for undergrad (hence my virulent hatred of\nAggies). I currently live and work in the RGV but my accent is pure\nPermian Basin.\n\nLH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3EA0DB.7020004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T05:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/2010 11:47 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI'm originally from the Midland/Odessa area, though I went to law\nschool in Waco and UT for undergrad (hence my virulent hatred of\nAggies). I currently live and work in the RGV but my accent is pure\nPermian Basin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, my first semester roomie was from Midland! This was the same year \nBaby Jessica fell down the well. I have a gaming buddy and a publisher \nfrom the same law school.\n\nFor those playing at home, while U.T. (we write it as tu) and A&M are \nbig athletic rivals, in 1926 there was a half-time riot at Baylor that \nresulted in the death of Charles Milo Sessums '27 the following day. The \nunsupported legend is that the other cadets commandeered railstock to \ntransport their training artillery with the intention of leveling the \nBaylor campus but were dissuaded, either by the Commandant or by Texas \nRangers felling trees across the tracks. There was a documented 4 year \ncessation of play between the schools." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-15T06:01:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<4C3EA0DB.7020004@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Them Great War vets got up to some shit I'll tell you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/2010 11:47 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm originally from the Midland/Odessa area, though I went to law\nschool in Waco and UT for undergrad (hence my virulent hatred of\nAggies). I currently live and work in the RGV but my accent is pure\nPermian Basin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, my first semester roomie was from Midland! This was the same year\nBaby Jessica fell down the well. I have a gaming buddy and a publisher\nfrom the same law school.\n\nFor those playing at home, while U.T. (we write it as tu) and A&M are\nbig athletic rivals, in 1926 there was a half-time riot at Baylor that\nresulted in the death of Charles Milo Sessums '27 the following day. The\nunsupported legend is that the other cadets commandeered railstock to\ntransport their training artillery with the intention of leveling the\nBaylor campus but were dissuaded, either by the Commandant or by Texas\nRangers felling trees across the tracks. There was a documented 4 year\ncessation of play between the schools.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84E43747-EA58-46A3-8459-3989A44D5C5D@Comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven Bowen", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T02:54:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 13, 2010, at 5:05 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\n Severian asks Typhon how they could have come up so high, when \nthey had just fallen so far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Typhon replies: Why shouldn't gravity obey my will? Words to \nthat effect.\n\nSteve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven Bowen", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2010-07-16T03:05:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "<63001bc861031e0c707d0cbde5aeff92.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 14, 2010, at 3:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nINRI is what is called a formula. It has various readings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, of course. The original is said to stand for Jesus, King of \nthe Jews?\n\nSteve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-16T03:16:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 14, 2010, at 3:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "INRI is what is called a formula. It has various readings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, of course. The original is said to stand for Jesus, King of\nthe Jews?\n\nSteve\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0fe17076ebb1234a273e86dc7f527736.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-16T03:17:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lots of stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup.\n\nIESVS?NAZARENVS?REX?IVD?ORVM\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 14, 2010, at 3:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "INRI is what is called a formula. It has various readings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, of course. The original is said to stand for Jesus, King of\nthe Jews?\n\nSteve\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C50CA64.2090302@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T00:25:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est (was: Re: lots of stuff)", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CBB8A.5020706@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/07/10 20:16, James Wynn wrote:\n\nIncidentally, \"finire\" means \"to end\" and also \"to limit\". Terminus \nEst also has these dual meanings, essentially." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have to say the first time I came across the name of the Sword, the \nmeaning I grokked immediately was 'It Is Finished'. Admit right now that \nother translations are more than likely more accurate representations of \nthe Latin. I can't help it if they are all wrong anyway :) :)\n\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T01:50:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est (was: Re: lots of stuff)", "in_reply_to": "<4C50CA64.2090302@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the Vulgate\ntranslation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 13/07/10 20:16, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, \"finire\" means \"to end\" and also \"to limit\". Terminus Est\nalso has these dual meanings, essentially.\n\nHave to say the first time I came across the name of the Sword, the\nmeaning I grokked immediately was 'It Is Finished'. Admit right now that\nother translations are more than likely more accurate representations of the\nLatin. I can't help it if they are all wrong anyway :) :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JD\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51BE86.3010001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T17:46:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nFor what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the \nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n \nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"\n\nOn Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jane Delawney > wrote:\n\n On 13/07/10 20:16, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n Incidentally, \"finire\" means \"to end\" and also \"to limit\".\n Terminus Est also has these dual meanings, essentially.\n\n Have to say the first time I came across the name of the Sword,\n the meaning I grokked immediately was 'It Is Finished'. Admit\n right now that other translations are more than likely more\n accurate representations of the Latin. I can't help it if they are\n all wrong anyway :) :)\n\n\n JD\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51C8E2.6090700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T18:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51BE86.3010001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the \nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51CD0B.6060505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T18:48:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51C8E2.6090700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the \nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51CE4A.2040408@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T18:54:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51C8E2.6090700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/29/2010 1:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the\nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"This is the End\" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the \nkilling and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue \nrock and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51D1D6.2050706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T19:09:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51CE4A.2040408@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What serpent?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/29/2010 1:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the\nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"This is the End\" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the \nkilling and the incest and the masked executioner with the special \nblue rock and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T19:17:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51D1D6.2050706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Ride the snake, ride the snake\nTo the lake, the ancient lake, baby\nThe snake is long, seven miles\nRide the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\nWhat serpent?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/29/2010 1:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the\nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"This is the End\" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the\nkilling and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue rock\nand the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51DDC6.3020203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:00:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget the \"Weird scenes inside the gold mine.\"\n\nBut there's no serpent in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\"Ride the snake, ride the snake\nTo the lake, the ancient lake, baby\nThe snake is long, seven miles\nRide the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold\"\n\nOn Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What serpent?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/29/2010 1:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the\nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"This is the End\" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the\nkilling and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue rock\nand the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:10:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51DDC6.3020203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget the \"Weird scenes inside the gold mine.\"\n\nBut there's no serpent in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello? Abaia." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51E0B8.5070500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:12:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eel.\n\nClose though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDon't forget the \"Weird scenes inside the gold mine.\"\n\nBut there's no serpent in BotNS.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hello? Abaia.\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:13:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nBut there's no serpent in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hello? Abaia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cold? Probably. Seven miles long? A good estimate." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51EDC0.2060505@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T21:08:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 29/07/10 02:50, John Watkins wrote:\nFor what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the Vulgate\ntranslation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the response (I think); I don't remember mentioning the \nVulgate in my post.\n\nAnd it wouldn't be 'finire est' either would it? Finitus Est actually.\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<371B3EB1-7863-4A2D-9929-AE37A2E6E911@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T00:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<4C51CE4A.2040408@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 29, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/29/2010 1:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the\nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"This is the End\" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the killing and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue rock and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, nothing AT ALL like that.\n\nRIDE THE SNAKE,\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<36df90cfa9347f5c8aeabe4b4d44b6a9.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:26:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est (was: Re: lots of stuff)", "in_reply_to": "<4C50CA64.2090302@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jane Delawney writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/07/10 20:16, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, \"finire\" means \"to end\" and also \"to limit\". Terminus\nEst also has these dual meanings, essentially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have to say the first time I came across the name of the Sword, the\nmeaning I grokked immediately was 'It Is Finished'. Admit right now that\nother translations are more than likely more accurate representations of\nthe Latin. I can't help it if they are all wrong anyway :) :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5d4e38c38df5985fc9ad5e12286fa658.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:46:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Morrison bought his Mother a front row center seat so he could perform\nthat song for her.\n\nWhat a guy!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Ride the snake, ride the snake\nTo the lake, the ancient lake, baby\nThe snake is long, seven miles\nRide the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold\"\n\nOn Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What serpent?\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/29/2010 1:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "For what it's worth, I checked to see if \"Terminus Est\" was the\nVulgate translation of Christ's last words.\n\nOf course it isn't, nor is it \"finire est.\" It's \"consummatum est.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"It is fulfilled?\"\n\n\"I want some soup?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hmm...No. \"I am full. No thank you.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"This is the End\" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the\nkilling and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue\nrock\nand the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }