Subject: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 00:35:10 +0000

Finally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging me.
When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good,
it put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a
Patrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some middle-Eastern sect.
Tzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as peacock-ish.

Anyway, here he is, the Peacock Angel of the Yazidis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus  The Peacock Angel of the
Yazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis ("the liar"), except for
the Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the favored status of
Man.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Wolfe had this bird and the Yazidi's in mind.

No, I don't think that BOTNS is intended as a Yazidi gospel :)
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 00:52:16 +0000

Ooh, this is excellent stuff.  Thank you for this.

Someone like me (but smarter) should take this insight and run with it into
a full-on application of Melek Taus to other Wolfean demons.  If Wolfe used
the figure once, did he use it again?  If not, why not?

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>wrote:

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From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 02:24:49 +0000

> the figure once, did he use it again?  If not, why not?

This is the way I see it: In the BOTNS, Wolfe shows how a young man, by no
means inherently evil, is induced to do the will of (call it) Lucifer,
working on the young man's inclination to obey and disinclination to think
clearly when afflicted by religiosity, with these propensities assisted by a
cloud of meretricious gnostic-ish mumbo-jumbo which takes the place of "true
religion". The Lucifer figure is particularly evil in that he causes the
young man himself to be responsible for the mumbo-jumbo, unwittingly.

Wolfe takes the reader on the same kind of journey as Sev. He sets up the
form of the story to make it look like a tale about enlightenment and the
progression of a soul from lowest to highest, and what BOTNS/UOTNS shows is
how powerful such forms are. By the the end of UOTNS there is overwhelming
evidence to make the enlightenment reading completely untenable on any
"objective" grounds, but nevertheless for most readers it persists.
"Tzadkiel" remains somehow the agent of some greater good, Sev has somehow
earned his role of minor god to the remnants of destroyed Urth humanity, a
grand (unknown) plan progresses to a sanctified (but unkown) end.

On this view, BOTNS/UOTNS is a kind of demonstration of how people can
become "yazidis" (to the extent that the term can be used to denote those
who beleive bad is good - no offence to actual Yazidis!).

Anyway, if Wolfe was thinking along those lines & did make use of aspects of
the Melek Taus figure, I guess that use was  pretty specific to the concerns
of BOTNS/UOTNS. The closest figure I can think of in other works is The
Lowest God from W-K, but even though he may well be a de-winged angel, he
fits a different "error" (ie "lowest = highest", rather than "wrong
highest").
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:24:25 +0000

From: Mr Thalassocrat 
>Wolfe takes the reader on the same kind of journey as Sev. He sets up the form of the story to make it look like a tale about enlightenment and the progression of a soul from lowest to highest, and what BOTNS/UOTNS shows is how powerful such forms are. By the the end of UOTNS there is overwhelming evidence to make the enlightenment reading completely untenable on any "objective" grounds, but nevertheless for most readers it persists. "Tzadkiel" remains somehow the agent of some greater good, Sev has somehow earned his role of minor god to the remnants of destroyed Urth humanity, a grand (unknown) plan progresses to a sanctified (but unkown) end.

I remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one.  One can certainly question whether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the sun counts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future of Master Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new life must be born in cataclysm?

It would, I think, be unfair to rely too much on the author's statements on his intention, but it seems to me that they support the conventional interpretation.  Severian is 'a Christian figure' - compare to Silk, who is 'a good man in a bad religion'.

But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the text: if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of The Outsider?  And what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun?  Vodalus?  Who, Mr. Thallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?

- Gerry Quinn

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From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 12:13:49 +0000

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote:

>
>
> I remain 'loyal to the ship' on this one.  One can certainly question
> whether the negation of a black hole that was deliberately put into the sun
> counts as a net benefit - but can we really defend the moribund future of
> Master Ash compared to the new life of Ushas, though indeed this new
> life must be born in cataclysm?
>

But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of the
population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his future.
Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to die in
Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev at least try
to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?

>  It would, I think, be unfair to rely too much on the author's statements
> on his intention, but it seems to me that they support the conventional
> interpretation.  Severian is 'a Christian figure' - compare to Silk, who is
> 'a good man in a bad religion'.
>

I can't recall everything that Wolfe has said about this, but didn't he
actually say that Sev is a member of the mystical body of Christ? (Or was
that something that he said to somebody, in addition to the Sev-as-Christian
comment?) Anyway, I can't understand Sev being a Christian, which presumably
requires one to believe in Christ?

As to being part of the mystical body of Christ, I am totally unqualified to
judge what that actually means. But perhaps this sentence from the Mystici
Corporis Christi is relevant: "For the Church, the Bride of Christ, is one;
and yet so vast is the love of the divine Spouse that it embraces in His
Bride the whole human race without exception." (
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
Ch96)

>  But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the
> text: if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of
> The Outsider?  And what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun?
> Vodalus?  Who, Mr. Thallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?
>

That is indeed the big question. My answer is that LS/SS is a redemption of
the God-less world of BOTNS/UOTNS - in which neither side is "Good". I
believe Sev's life after meeting SilkHorn will be very different than his
career in BOTNS/UOTNS - as I've set out in posts here over the years. I
don't think anybody else has found this position very convincing, but I'm
sticking with it :)

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From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 12:16:44 +0000

> to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?

Sorry, that may be unclear. ".. why didn't Sev at least try to make an
evacuation happen ...".
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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:22:53 +0000

>M.T.- When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good,

I was checking on this and found that Melek Taus is specifically associated with
Azezel the fallen peacock angel. Similar name but distinct from the non-fallen
Tzadkiel. It looks like the Yazidis find him as redeemed from his fall and worthy
of worship. But this redemption is not recognized by Judeo-Christianty
(he is the demon from the Denzel Washington movie- Fallen. Worth seeing)

Anyway, I think Peter Wright joins in your conclusion that there are no good guys
in BotNS, certainly not among the powerful. However I think he interprets from
the perspective of an atheist/socialist so this is not surprising. I don't know
your own religious/political persuasions but I am pretty sure Gene Wolfe is not
an atheist/socialist.

That's if Gene Wolfe's intentions are important here. They need not be. I do not
think Gene Wolfe's opinion of angels is more valid than Peter Wright's or yours
from a human perspective. But as author of the worlds we are discussing, Wolfe's
opinions may take on some exalted status, being those of The Creator, I suppose.

The "real" Tzadkiel is of the angelic order Hashmallim. But I suspect wolfe has
combined his description with another angelic order, the Cherubim. They have wings
spangled with eyes and one of their duties is to defend the entrance to the Garden
Of Eden. When Severian first sees Tzadkiel in the mirror-book, it happens because
he has requested to go to The Garden.

Re-reading that section I notice that Severian recognizes that the winged being
he sees in the book is as big as an island. I feel confirmed in my guess that
the giant being Severian sees on the throne and captain's chair is a small piece of
a much larger being.

>G.Q.- But here is an obvious question which should have an answer within the text:
>if your theory is correct, where in BotNS/UotNS is the counterpart of The Outsider?
>And what Urthly presences/powers stand against the New Sun? Vodalus? Who, Mr.
>Thallassocrat, is standing for what you say is Good?

I think the BotNS analog to The Outsider is The Increate. I am not the best religious
philosophy scholar but I think those who deeply consider the question end up coming
to the conclusion that, while we humans are supposed to choose "good", God is
infintely above such conflict. In fact God/The Outsider/Increate uses both good
and evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable divine goals.
 
As we read Long Sun we see The Outsider get promoted in Silk's mind from minor deity
to top dog. However the "truth" is that The Outsider is far more than top dog, the 
boss of all gods. In fact he has created Pas and Scylla and Echidna and The Whorl
and Blue and Green and Urth and uses them to accomplish His goals. Right?

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:31:41 +0000

> and evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable
That is one conclusion some people have drawn.  Another is that "good" is a
meaningless concept except insofar as it is identified with God's will.
I.e., the reason murder is wrong is that God disapproves of it, and if God
approves of murder in a particular case it becomes good.  A third is that
God is infinitely good--so good that He has the power to cultivate good from
the seeds of evil.

The first concept, the one you proffered, seems to me to be favored by those
who prefer a deanthropomorphised concept of God.  The second seems to me to
be preferred by those who privilege God's authority, His status as sovereign
of existence.  The third is perhaps preferred by those who take it
that God's *legitimacy *as sovereign must depend on moral authority rather
than sheer power or status as creator.

I will only note here that, as readers of texts which are themselves
created, I think it is true that experientially we prefer the third
alternative to the first.  When Mr. Goodkind instructs me that his hero is
morally justified in all his actions, I do not take Mr. Goodkind's views to
be definitive of the question, even within his fictive universe.  It may be
that this is due solely to the metafictive nature of in-fiction morality,
but maybe there's something else there too.

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:39:37 +0000

>When Mr. Goodkind instructs me that his hero is
> be definitive of the question, even within his fictive universe.

Nothing good has ever come from taking Goodkind seriously.

LH

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:41:27 +0000

He's a real-life demiurge. That's worth something.

---

From: Andy Robertson <pinlighter at btconnect.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:59:34 +0000

-----Original Message-----
>Patrick O'Brien novel?)

It's in TREASONS HARBOUR.   

But it may be worth noting Malek Taus was Lovecraft's private epistolary title for his friend E Hoffman Price.  

Wolfe might possibly have picked up on this, being an HPL reader and fan, but even if not it may amuse.

Cordially

  hartshorn

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From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 15:08:24 +0000

This is worth pursuing but I think there are a number of problems with it.

If Tzadkiel is honest, his intent is to renew the planet and give Humanity a 
new chance. If there is an afterlife then drowning almost everyone isn't 
such a catastrophe as it might seem. The fact is that the world is in dire 
need of moral cleansing, not only terraforming, and I don't see how you 
achieve the former without some global disaster that at once decimates the 
population and changes the natural environment. The new world will have a 
chance to be good.

If Tzadkiel is a liar, then I don't see what does he gain by destroying the 
world. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness, but I don't find it 
convincing that he would take all that trouble just to have a 5 minute 
massacre sport. We tend to associate evil with selfishness, and to 
annihilate your potential servants makes little sense selfishly. And if the 
intent is to take pleasure in killing them, then a global drowning is 
possibly one of the least interesting methods - quick and clean. If otoh he 
wishes to wipe out Humanity for whatever reason, giving a renewed planet to 
a reduced population seems to run counter to the objective.

Moreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world, why not 
just do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't have that power all 
by himself, then whoever did have the power is calling the shots, not Tzakdiel.

You mention Severian could have asked for the population to be evacuated. 
Well, could the building of the Whorl have been done not out of fear that 
the sun would die out, but that the flood could be irreparably deleterious? 
And where would you take all those wicked people, and how would you reform 
them? If it were easy, what would a new Earth be needed for? In the dying 
earth future, my impression is that the population had been steadily 
declining for ages.

Does Severian not asking for an evacuation imply that he is evil as well? I 
suppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's way of presenting 
things that such a question doesn't even cross his mind.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 15:18:40 +0000

2010/7/9 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com

> This is actually pretty clear in the text, IMHO.  The Hierogrammates are
trying to breed a new race of Hieros.  Severian's task as epitome of Urth is
to persuade Tzadkiel that the humans of Urth have the genetic materials
needed for potential future Hieros.  The destruction of Urth is followed by
partial repopulation by humans hand-picked by the Hierodules, presumably for
their genetic materials.

This actually makes some sense of the family tree and incest preoccupations
of the text, and of the monkey preoccupation--we know from the man-apes that
there are degraded, semi-ape humans (as well as humans who have probably
interbred with aliens of some kind, and humans who do really screwy things
to their biology, like Baldanders.)  In short, the purification of Urth by
massive slaughter makes perfect sense--Tzadkiel is wiping the bad crap out
of a petri dish he's decided to keep using.

> I think this is a trickier question.

> things that such a question doesn't even cross his mind.

This seems to fit, doesn't it?  Severian is part of a cult-like order that
trained him to obey authority, in particular when that authority instructs
him to torture or kill.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 15:19:18 +0000

Why does everybody have to die in this time line?

.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 15:37:38 +0000

John Watkins wrote (09-07-2010 16:18):
> 2010/7/9 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com <mailto:entonio at gmail.com>
>
>     If Tzadkiel is a liar, then I don't see what does he gain by
>     destroying the world. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness,
>     but I don't find it convincing that he would take all that trouble
>     just to have a 5 minute massacre sport. We tend to associate evil
>     with selfishness, and to annihilate your potential servants makes
>     little sense selfishly. And if the intent is to take pleasure in
>     killing them, then a global drowning is possibly one of the least
>     interesting methods - quick and clean. If otoh he wishes to wipe out
>     Humanity for whatever reason, giving a renewed planet to a reduced
>     population seems to run counter to the objective.
>
> trying to breed a new race of Hieros.  Severian's task as epitome of
> Urth is to persuade Tzadkiel that the humans of Urth have the genetic
> materials needed for potential future Hieros.  The destruction of Urth
> is followed by partial repopulation by humans hand-picked by the
> Hierodules, presumably for their genetic materials.
> This actually makes some sense of the family tree and incest
> preoccupations of the text, and of the monkey preoccupation--we know
> from the man-apes that there are degraded, semi-ape humans (as well as
> humans who have probably interbred with aliens of some kind, and humans
> who do really screwy things to their biology, like Baldanders.)  In
> short, the purification of Urth by massive slaughter makes perfect
> sense--Tzadkiel is wiping the bad crap out of a petri dish he's decided
> to keep using.

It makes a lot of sense. But why couldn't he cherry pick his humans and take 
them to a different planet where they would have everything they needed at 
their disposal? (Instead of a renewed but blank Earth)

Or is the breeding of hieros an end that justifies the means?

>     Moreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world,
>     why not just do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't
>     have that power all by himself, then whoever did have the power is
>     calling the shots, not Tzakdiel.
>

One for which I have no answer, one way or the other.

Put another way: as a necessary theological axiom, the Increate gets a free 
pass when it comes to evil. But lesser beings don't. Unless they can derive 
their actions from the very Increate. Which brings us to the start without 
the $20.

>     Does Severian not asking for an evacuation imply that he is evil as
>     well? I suppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's
>     way of presenting things that such a question doesn't even cross his
>     mind.
>
> This seems to fit, doesn't it?  Severian is part of a cult-like order
> that trained him to obey authority, in particular when that authority
> instructs him to torture or kill.

That much is true, but I've always looked at Wolfe's characters as growing 
out of their original constraints.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:33:22 +0000

But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of the population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his future. Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to die in Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev at least try to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was possible?

Do we know how many died, and what arrrangements were made by the various authorities on Urth to evacuate people to higher ground?

Sev wasn't on Urth at the time - he only arrived back simultaneously with the flood; maybe indeed there was some reason this was necessary.  Making preparations for the Commonwealth would have been down to Valeria, Inire et al.

- Gerry Quinn

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:46:23 +0000

> and evil; pitting them against each other to accomplish His unknowable 

Sure, but that is not the point I am getting at.  The question I'm asking 
relates to the Urthly representatives of good.  Surely there should be 
someone - apart from a few witch doctors maybe - standing up for the 
prevention of the White Fountain, if that's what the Increate wants?

> and Blue and Green and Urth and uses them to accomplish His goals. Right?

Yes.  And we assume that some at least of what's going on is in accordance 
with those goals.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:56:24 +0000

Aren't we forgetting someone else near and dear to Wolfe's heart that
once used a devastating flood to bring renewal to a world dying,
choked with sin?

Why are we viewing the flood as "bad" or as a punishment?  Floods,
even non-divine ones, are capable of destruction, sure, but they also
renew and refresh and carry things to new places.  I always viewed the
flood as something necessary to the creation of Ushas (esp. given the
use of the term Ushas in a play called "Eschatology and Genesis" and
what is said about it there) because it swept away the things that had
poisoned Urth, like Erebus/Abaia (demons, or in the BOTNS parlance,
maybe some sort of hybrid of creatures with hieros).  At least, that's
what I got from the demons' (in E&G) talk about attempting to "poison
the seed" via Jahi (the serpent? I think Jahi means "serpent of fire"
in Japanese, but my Japanese is rusty).  Anyway, the way I understood
it was that Erebus/Abaia/the other vaguely Lovecraftian baddies of the
BOTNS were the results, like other cacogens, of genetic
experiments/AI/whatever, but that they went "wrong" whereas the
Hierogrammates went "right."  Naturally, the ones that went right
would want to cull the bad lines, and to do that, you've got to wipe
them out.  What better way than a gravitationally-induced flood that
both destroys the old and corrupt and makes way for the new (as well
as renewing the dying sun)?

Or it could be the Benadryll from last night still weighs heavily on my mind.

LH

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 19:13:48 +0000

On 7/9/2010 1:56 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:
> hy are we viewing the flood as "bad" or as a punishment?  Floods,
> renew and refresh and carry things to new places.

Knowing that the flooding of Urth is "bad" would require knowledge of 
what happened to all those people who were transported to other planets 
in Master Ash's timeline. Also, what the standard of living became on 
Urth before the remnant of Urth's population was transported? 
(Presumably the population became quite attenuated, otherwise people 
would reproduce faster than they could be transported). Also, what 
happened in Ushas afterwards.

There isn't really enough information in the story to discover whether 
the flood was "bad". A lot of people died, yes. A lot of people died in 
the 1944 invasion of Normandy and the subsequent months.

u+169b

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 19:15:40 +0000

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 3:13 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> Knowing that the flooding of Urth is "bad" would require knowledge of what
> happened to all those people who were transported to other planets in Master
> Ash's timeline.

Good point.  For all we know, their passage off the planet was paid by
inhumi.

> Also, what the standard of living became on Urth before the remnant of
> Urth's population was transported? (Presumably the population became quite
> attenuated, otherwise people would reproduce faster than they could be
> transported). Also, what happened in Ushas afterwards.
>
> There isn't really enough information in the story to discover whether the
> flood was "bad". A lot of people died, yes. A lot of people died in the 1944
> invasion of Normandy and the subsequent months.
>
> u+169b
>
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From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:11:36 +0000

Gerry Quinn wrote (09-07-2010 19:46):
> From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>

I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days ago, if 
Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the new sun, since 
the ones that seem to oppose it don't compare favourably with the ones 
serving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil idea.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:18:10 +0000

From: "Ant?nio Pedro Marques" <entonio at gmail.com>

> I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days ago, 
> if Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the new sun, 
> since the ones that seem to oppose it don't compare favourably with the 
> ones serving it. That to me is the chief problem with the Tzadkiel-is-evil 
> idea.

I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at.  It seems 
like a structural necessity in the text.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:26:44 +0000

> like a structural necessity in the text.
Possibly filled by the Green Man?

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:58:06 +0000

>Lane Haygood- At least, that' what I got from the demons' (in E&G)
>talk about attempting to "poison the seed" via Jahi (the serpent? I
>think Jahi means "serpent of fire" in Japanese, but my Japanese is rusty).
 
I think the name Jahi in E & G is a reference to the Persian/Zorastrian 
goddess/demon of that name. She is known for lasciviousness and as a
"polluting whore" and the source of the menstrual curse on
women.
 
She is cognate to the Judeo-Kabbalistic personage named Lilith whose
mating with Adam was also thought to be corrupting and the source of
many demons, lamia/snake women, the origin of vampires etc. etc.
 
I think this allusion supports the rest of your post rather well 
(more than the Japanese, I mean). Not to mention the character
Jahlee in Short Sun...... 		 	   		  
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---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:05:41 +0000

I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at.  It seems like a structural necessity in the text.

I'm pretty sure the Green Man is in favour of the New Sun too.

- Gerry Quinn
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:05:45 +0000

their genetic materials.<
________________

Uh, I don't think so. Most of the people Sev found on Ushas after he
returned there from the stone town were the decendants of the sailors on the
Ship who had lost the fight with Sev and the eidolons right after the sham
Trial.

-----------------
      I said, "Not knowing fire or anything else," and as I
spoke I recalled what the young officer had reported: that
Hierodules had landed a man and woman on the grounds
of the House Absolute. Remembering that, it was simple
enough to guess who my priest's forebears had been--the
sailors routed by my memories had paid for their defeat
with their pasts, just as I would have lost the future of my
descendants had my own past been defeated. (URTH, 369)
----------------

-Roy

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:07:22 +0000

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote:

>  *From:* John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>

As I recall from earlier discussions on this list, that's far from clear.
In his initial appearance he seems to be indifferent to the Sun myth.  Later
he appears in a confusing scene with Tzadkiel.

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:13:14 +0000

A.P.M.:> Sure, but that is not the point I am getting at. The question I'm asking
> prevention of the White Fountain, if that's what the Increate wants?
 
I think what the Increate wants is not just for the White Fountain to save the 
sun, but for Severian to go through a series of massive trials and tribulations
to bring the White Fountain. They are necessary.
 
(and they ARE necessary in a meta-fictive way. The Increate of this universe is,
in fact Gene Wolfe. And it would be one crappy universe/story if all we got was
"Black Hole in sun. Plugged with White Fountain. The End." Wolfe HAD to give 
Severian trials and tribulations).

Anyway, I think all of Ascia and the war can be seen as efforts by great powers
(Abaia, Erebus etc.) to stop the coming of the New Sun. Clearly the coming of 
the White Fountain is tied to the Autarchy. And if Ascia won and took over the
Commonwealth there would be no Autarch. Only The Group of Seventeen.
 
As analogues to ancient pagan monsters, those megatherians have a lot 
to lose from a purifying Judeo-Christian flood. They'd be reduced to being
just some old mythological stories.

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---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:15:11 +0000

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:

-----------------

I conceed that I misremembered the passage and forgot that the Ushas people
were descended from the sailors.  That said, it isn't clear to me that this
is inconsistent with my hypothesis--Severian knows about "a man and woman,"
not a general decamping of the humans on the Ship.  Maybe the humans from
the Ship were screened genetically?

(I recognize that this sounds like speculation, but we do *know* that the
Hierogrammates are running a breeding program.  I'm trying to square their
actions with that.)

----------------

-Roy

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:21:00 +0000

From: John Watkins 

  As I recall from earlier discussions on this list, that's far from clear.  In his initial appearance he seems to be indifferent to the Sun myth.  Later he appears in a confusing scene with Tzadkiel.  

He's from the future.  He lives by photosynthesis.  If he thinks the coming of the New Sun was a bad idea, he's got some major existential hangups to deal with.

- Gerry Quinn

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:25:56 +0000

> just some old mythological stories.

It's hard to know.  I seem to recall someone saying the Ascians would be 
less affected than the Commonwealth by the arrival of the New Sun.

As for the sea monsters, it's not immediately obvious that they have much 
directly to fear from a flood.  Maybe they plan to chill for a few centuries 
until human society renormalises, then start their war games again.

I don't think they were for it, but I'm not convinced that they expended 
great effors fighting it either.  The undines don't seem to have tried to 
kill Sev; they may have preserved his life.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:31:30 +0000

>From: "Ant?nio Pedro Marques" <entonio at gmail.com>
...

>>Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good*
>> people opposing the new sun, since the ones that seem to oppose it don't 
>>compare favourably with the ones

>a structural necessity in the text.

I don't see that.  If there are any "good" characters in /Pirate Freedom/, 
they're pretty minor.  As I recall.  But I don't think Tzadkiel (who I'd like to 
forget) was supposed to be evil.

On the monkey business--I didn't notice the monkey repetitions, and I agree that 
they're interesting.  Perhaps even more clearly crying out for an explanation 
are the two appearances of Fechin.  I have no idea what the explanation might 
be, but I really don't think it's that Rudesind, the old man, or Fechin is 
Inire.  I find it much more believable that we're supposed to think the baboon 
at the lazaret is a spy for Inire.

(Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire.  I still want to know.  And I'm with those 
who think he isn't sexually interested in girls, or any humans.)

People, I think Ryan Quinn especially, have been saying they think that since 
Wolfe spent all that time on TBotNS, every detail must be significant.  I don't 
think that's necessarily true.  Nadine Gordimer, in her introduction to a 
collection of her early short stories, defined the short story as fiction short 
enough for the writer to keep it all in his or her head at once.  (As I 
recall.)  Vladimir Nabokov claimed he wrote his novels this way.  He wrote on 
index cards and could fill in any point in the story (though he also said he 
wore out erasers faster than pencil lead).  He may have written /Ada/ this way, 
but TBotNS is more than twice as long, and I don't believe Wolfe knew at every 
point what he had written at every other point that readers might connect with 
it.  (Heck, Nabokov didn't notice every possible false lead either.)  In 
particular, I think that when he wrote the appendix to /Shadow/, he was thinking 
that it took place in our future, not in a past cycle of the universe.

Executive summary: When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered 
every other time he mentioned a monkey.

(By the way, Nabokov said specifically that some of his stories, maybe all his 
later ones, contained a second tale hidden under the first one, like the "Second 
House" that Lee mentioned.  I recommend him for those who like fiction of that 
kind.  I'll also say, and have said at NABOKV-L, that Wolfe is the most 
Nabokovian sf writer.  But I'm not guaranteeing you'll like Nabokov.)

I too was horrified by the flood in TUotNS (though I'd stopped enjoying the book 
long before that because I felt the writing was far below Wolfe's standard).  
The afterlife doesn't mitigate the disaster unless the victims got as good a 
chance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed.  True, the Bible 
says God caused a flood, but he seems to have thought it was a bad idea 
afterwards, which he apparently didn't after the flood Severian caused.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:42:52 +0000

Some thoughts on Jerry's stuff.

> (Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire. ?I still want to know. ?And I'm with those

I have assumed from the beginning that it was a religious title. But
then, I'm a mackerelsnapper.

> Wolfe spent all that time on TBotNS, every detail must be significant. ?I don't
> think that's necessarily true.

I repeat my citation of Alan Moore re: _Watchmen_: "Not everything means _much_.

> I think that when he wrote the appendix to /Shadow/, he was thinking

This seems very likely to me.

> every other time he mentioned a monkey.

Yet ... we are faced with Wolfe's insistence on not repeating clues.
He seems to _think_ he has this level of control over his material.

> chance to repent as they would have if they hadn't been killed. ?True, the Bible

I think it is intended to be horrible.

I also think that there's an important point you're missing -- God
doesn't cause this flood; Severian and the Hiero(foo)s do. God
responded to the Noachian flood by promising that he would never again
destroy the world this way; but he doesn't promise that creatures
won't do likewise.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:58:07 +0000

>> When he mentioned a monkey, he might not have remembered

Wolfe does make mistakes. And he can inadvertently reuse ideas. A famous 
instance that he noted himself is that his protagonist in "The Other 
Dead Man" and the villain in "An Evil Guest" have the same name. And it 
is not uncommon for writers to have an inclination for particular 
adjectives and analogies.

But if this is the case in this instance, I would think there would be 
examples of Wolfe comparing characters to monkeys in other stories? 
Especially since he did it three times in this one novel. Can anyone 
think of some others?

u+16b9

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:05:47 +0000

>   But on my side of the argument I have Ash's words about the majority of
> the population having been evacuated before the ice death, in his
> future. Whatever the benefits of Ushas, why did almost everybody have to
> die in Sev's time line? And probably more to the point: why didn't Sev
> at least try to make this happen - knowing as he did that it was
> possible?

I think it is more like, they let it happen as late as they possibly could
without endangering the success of the New Sun. This meant a dying urth
about to disappear under its final ice age with a population in the
millions rather than billions, so that the minimum loss of life would be
necessary for the coming of Ushas.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:05:50 +0000

> the Ship were screened genetically?

Ushas was not seeded with just any humans from the Ship. Specifically, Sev
means the sailors who survived the battle with the eidolons and fled the
room where they fought (URTH, 155). Those are the men Sev and Gunnie feared
would kill them on the way back to Urth (161-62). Apheta said the problem
would not come up, and it didn't.

I guess you could say that running away is a survival trait that could be
passed on, but I don't think that's what you had in mind with genetic
screening. <g>

-Roy

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:08:18 +0000

> passed on, but I don't think that's what you had in mind with genetic
I meant "not part cacogen or two generations north of man-ape or whatever."
Pure human.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:42:27 +0000

> Especially since he did it three times in this one novel. Can anyone

Mantis mentioned that Sev describes his pouch as manskin on one place and
doeskin in another.

---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 23:38:50 +0000

2010/7/10 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com
> if Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the new sun, since

The sailors who witness Sev's "trial" almost unanimously choose to oppose
the new sun. (The only one who doesn't is poor Gunnie, who seems fated to
always be a traitor, in both younger and older guises.) They either die or
have their memories wiped for this.

I don't think it's too glib to note here that "matyr" means "witness".
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 23:48:20 +0000

From: "Jeff Wilson" <jwilson at io.com>
> necessary for the coming of Ushas.

I think the coming of the New Sun is only a relatively short time after 
Severian left; a matter of several decades.  His (ex)wife is still alive.

Ash's time, when the glaciers are finally closing in, is - if I recall 
correctly - some four thousand years in the future.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 00:00:32 +0000

> Jahlee in Short Sun...... 		 	   		

Or Julhi in the eponymous C.L. Moore story starring Northwest Smith.

Adam

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 00:55:03 +0000

>I wrote:

>instance that he noted himself is
>that his protagonist in "The Other Dead Man" and the villain in "An Evil Guest" 
>have the same name. And it is >not uncommon for writers to have an inclination 
>for particular adjectives and analogies.

>But if this is the case in this instance, I would think there would be examples 
>of Wolfe comparing characters to
>monkeys in other stories? Especially since he did it three times in this one 
>novel.

He might have just had monkeys on his mind at the time.  Or happened to think of 
characters who were monkeylike.  Or wanted them in a book (that may be) about 
transcending one's baser nature.

> Can anyone think of some others?

But that's why the Pansuccursor gave us Google Book Search.  Not counting 
characters who are monkeys or who are compared to monkey bars who flunked 
Darwin, there's Pouk (twice), Mother Cloot, a girl in a story told by Fava, and 
I hesitate to mention anyone in the same universe as Father Inire, but Severian 
(in TUotNS), Silk (in both /Litany/ and RttW), and all human beings (in "The 
Death of Dr. Island", "The Ziggurat", and OBW).  That leaves the field pretty 
open.

You can see all of those and more mentions of monkeys at

http://www.google.com/search?q="Gene+Wolfe"+monkey&hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&ei=T8Q3TN6DIcT7lweG3O3UBw&start=0&sa=N

Jerry Friedman

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:26:55 +0000

Mr Thalassocrat wrote (10-07-2010 00:38):
> <mailto:entonio at gmail.com>
>
>
>     I'm not sure that's what you're getting at, but I've asked some days
>     ago, if Tzadkiel is evil, where are the *good* people opposing the
>     new sun, since the ones that seem to oppose it don't compare
>     favourably with the ones serving it. That to me is the chief problem
>     with the Tzadkiel-is-evil idea.
>
> The sailors who witness Sev's "trial" almost unanimously choose to
> oppose the new sun. (The only one who doesn't is poor Gunnie, who seems
> fated to always be a traitor, in both younger and older guises.) They
> either die or have their memories wiped for this.

Yes, I had originally said something about excepting those who were simply 
fighting for their lives (only in the crucial moment, I add). But either way 
you have a point. Though I was hoping for a more widespread presence.
Kind of like, with all the evil in the Whorl, someone like Silk is genuinely 
good - but then Silk is only one person, even though he seems to have honest 
followers.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:36:28 +0000

It's God's plan that everybody die.

Sometimes a whole bunch go at once.

Get over it.

It's really not a big deal.

.

> From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
>
>>> ago, if
>> I must have missed that, but yes, that is what I am getting at.  It
>> seems like
>>a structural necessity in the text.
>

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:50:42 +0000

Jerry Friedman wrote (09-07-2010 22:31):

> (Somebody asked why /Father/ Inire.  I still want to know.

Why are Latin Rite priests 'fathers'? They're not supposed to be producing 
children.
Maybe someone that old and important in the Commmonwealth should be called 
Father.
But the reason, that I see, is that the whole FI is a title. Inire does not 
look like a proper name to me. And when people refer to someone of such 
importance, they don't use proper names. They won't do it for the Autarch - 
he may be externally referred to by name, but not generally, I think - and 
they won't do it for the Autarch's vizier.
That raises the question - what's the meaning of FI?

> And I'm with those

This I think is unknowable. Sex has a way of popping up in those books where 
you least expect or actually want it.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 02:06:17 +0000

On Jul 9, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

> Why are Latin Rite priests 'fathers'? They're not supposed to be producing children.
> Maybe someone that old and important in the Commmonwealth should be called Father.
> But the reason, that I see, is that the whole FI is a title. Inire does not look like a proper name to me. And when people refer to someone of such importance, they don't use proper names. They won't do it for the Autarch - he may be externally referred to by name, but not generally, I think - and they won't do it for the Autarch's vizier.

Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...

Father in Ire
Inherit Fear
Fire in Earth
Fainter Heir
In Their Fear

I dunno. Just a thought?

...ryan

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 02:24:22 +0000

> Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...

Michael Andre-Driussi mentions the fact that "inire" is a Latin infinitve
meaning "to begin" or "to enter," related to "initiate" and suggesting the
guardian of a secret knowledge.  This is turn Andre-Driussi connects to the
password "quercine penetralia" and the word "Ylem," which is the primordial
substance of creation.  When I read the explanation of "inire" for the first
time I realized that I had subconsciously made the connection to the Latin
word myself.

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 04:07:46 +0000

>then, I'm a mackerelsnapper.
 
And though I'm a back-wheel skid, that was my first thought too.  But why is he 
the only one with a decipherable title?  And are any caloyers, sannyasins, etc., 
ever addressed or referred to as "Father"?

> I repeat my citation of Alan Moore re: _Watchmen_: "Not everything means 

A good one.

>He seems to _think_ he has this level of control over his material.

Exactly.  But he doesn't.  We can't tell the difference between his single clues 
and all the other things that might be the single clue to something else.

Which is why everyone finds his stories so frustrating and ultimately 
uninteresting, including us, so we're not even having this discussion.

Which brings me to more stuff--/The Silmarillion/ this time.  In addition to the 
flaws people have mentioned, much of it is too ordinary.  It doesn't have the 
pervasive nostalgia of LotR.  More to the point, for large stretches the elves 
are just like people.  In LotR, Tolkien was very careful to hide things about 
the elves--the hobbits have fields as well as food, for instance, but there's no 
mention of fields in Lorien where the grain for Lembas would be grown.  Likewise 
Elvenhome was only hinted at.  In /The Silmarillion/, we see Elvenhome, the 
elves are onstage all the time, and they can't live up to our imaginations.

Normally Wolfe displays complete mastery of mystery.  He describes things that 
will be impressive or beautiful, and leaves other things as hints.  In /TUotNS/, 
to the extent that I haven't blotted it out of my memory, this didn't work for 
me.  A lot that I enjoyed imagining in /TBotNS/ is now spelled out, as you said, 
and it doesn't measure up.  The worst is Yesod, mentioned in one almost 
thrown-away line in /Citadel/.  In /Urth/ we go there, and Yesod looks a lot 
like Earth or Urth.  Of course Severian's human mind can't assimilate what's 
there and Wolfe's human mind would have great difficulty describing a higher 
universe.  But that was a reason not to try it.

The puzzles, intentional or unintentional, are a big part of what keeps us 
occupied here.  (The same is true on NABOKV-L.)  I wonder how much time we'd 
spend on Wolfe if he communicated exactly what he wanted to most of his readers.

> destroy the world this way; but he doesn't promise that creatures

But if Urth is in a past universe, then God saw what a worldwide flood was 
like.  You would think if it displeased him when he did it, it would have 
displeased him earlier when Tzadkiel and Severian did it, and he'd have known 
not to do it on his own.

Of course I'm picturing God as responding to events, which seems to be the 
picture in Genesis, not as omniscient the way modern Judaism, Christianity, and 
Islam see him.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 04:16:03 +0000

Jerry writes:

> picture in Genesis, not as omniscient the way modern Judaism,
> Christianity, and Islam see him.

Why? Do you believe that Gene Wolfe pictures God like this?

God, the real one, the omniscient and omnipotent one, intends for
everybody to die.

Why should he not, now and again, intend for a whole bunch of people to
die at about the same time?

In fact, he does, as geological history and traditional story both show.

Promises in Genesis and so on to not do this and that can easily be taken
for the wishful thinking of the humans who wrote the book, or wrote it
down.

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 05:49:19 +0000

>     Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...

Fenrir

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From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 06:12:47 +0000

> Kind of like, with all the evil in the Whorl, someone like Silk is
> genuinely good - but then Silk is only one person, even though he seems to
> have honest followers.

I don't think they are simply fighting for their lives. They attack, rather
than defend, voting with their weapons against the new sun whose
consequences Tzadkiel has just explained to them. They are fighting for
Urth. Most of them would have no direct stake in the outcome - they were
born on other planets.
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 06:59:18 +0000

> Fenrir

Why?

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:29:00 +0000

>>> Maybe FI is actually a permutation of another word/phrase...

Plenty of reasons potentially. He's a wolf which would appeal to the 
author. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end 
of the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a 
backward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs.

u+16b9

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:33:34 +0000

> backward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs.

These are not bad reasons.

I was thinking, frost giant.

Now I think, huh.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:18:38 +0000

> correctly - some four thousand years in the future.

Sev mentions the land abutting the ice in his time - there could come a 
point where even the rehabbed sun could not return the balance if the 
ice advanced far enough. They know Severian takes the Phoenix throne and 
all the other chiliads of  trials and hardhips have worn down the 
populace of old Urth - best to strike then, to delay further could not 
be expected to advance the cause of Ushas.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
< http://ieeetamut.org >

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:34:41 +0000

> point where even the rehabbed sun could not return the balance if the ice 
> advanced far enough. They know Severian takes the Phoenix throne and all 
> the other chiliads of  trials and hardhips have worn down the populace of 
> old Urth - best to strike then, to delay further could not be expected to 
> advance the cause of Ushas.

This may well be so, and certainly it makes sense not to have the advent of 
the New Sun delayed until the last possible moment.

I was just pointing out that Urth is populous at the time of the coming of 
the New Sun.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:52:22 +0000

> I was thinking, frost giant.

I'm sure you caught this, but it was late and I failed to spell it out:
Fr. Inire = Fenrir
That's a pretty darn close anagram.

u+16b9
//
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:56:19 +0000

> I'm sure you caught this,

Indeed.

>                           but it was late and I failed to spell it out:

You did?

What was the list of anagrams about?

Do you believe that things must be spelled out for most people to get them?

Don't answer.

Think.

> That's a pretty darn close anagram.

Indeed.

I believe that I said that after initial skepticism, I find this quite
interesting.

Where the monkey fuck is my zen stick?

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:07:41 +0000

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 3:29 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> author. Additionally, he's destined to be chained to rock until the end of
> the world. You don't think F. Inire likes his post do you? Stuck on a
That's a great insight.

Maybe this gives a triple meaning to the name--"Father" suggests the
politically involved churchmen of Byzantium; "inire" suggests an initiate of
a Gnostic sect or Greek mystery cult, but at the root he is "Fenrir,"
sharing with Abaia et al. the name of an ancient monster that describes his
function.  It's easy to hyperbolize when discussing Wolfe's writing, but if
you've nailed his intent that's a really nice bit of writing.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:18:10 +0000

I do think this is impressive, and I want to say this publicly.

.

>> of

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:00:23 +0000

I'm not sure how serious I was when I suggested Inire's name may be anagrammatic, but it's interesting for sure.

...ryan

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:54:50 +0000

> backward planet tweaking the pointless politics of the Autarchs.

He could leave at any time via the mirrors, or take a vacation of most 
any length via the Atrium or the Botanic Gardens. Severian thinks he has 
taken the post voluntarily: "We know your master is what the people call 
a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have 
chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a 
human being." Citadel, XXXV

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:40:41 +0000

> any length via the Atrium or the Botanic Gardens. Severian thinks he 
> has taken the post voluntarily: "We know your master is what the 
> people call a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of 
> those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, 
> remaining on Urth as a human being." Citadel, XXXV

Hm...let me make a distinction in terms: "chained to a rock", not 
"marooned" there. And by associating Fr Inire with Fenrir, I do not 
intend to say that Fr Inire was captured and forced to stay on Urth by 
some means physical means.

"Chose _for whatever reason_" includes choices based on very limited 
options...including no real options at all. Sure, he was *physically* 
able leave at any time (perhaps) or travel to a better Time, but the 
very word "hierodule" (Heiro slave or Heiro robot) suggests that any 
"choice", for him is a highly qualified term.  Anyway, it's hard for me 
to imagine Father Inire taking two weeks off to hang at an off-planet 
resort.

Does Severian's statement here imply that he didn't KNOW at the time Fr 
Inire's reasons for being stationed on Urth? Or only a decision not to 
"get in to it" with Rudesind?

u+16b9

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:44:47 +0000

>some means physical means
 
I like the possibility of Fenrir as a name origin for Fr. Inire too. I 
also agree that suggesting Inire could escape Urth whenever he wanted is
not capturing the spirit of the suggestion. One might similarly suggest 
that Moses could have just gone down from Mt. Nebo and walked into The
Promised Land whenvever he pleased despite what God told him.
 
I think I am safe in saying that nobody is suggesting Father Inire IS
Fenrir, any more than I was suggesting that he IS the baboon-headed 
Egyptian god Thoth.
 
The Tale of the Boy Called Frog borrows from greek mythology, the Old
Testament, Rudyard Kipling, roman mythology and the Mayflower/Pilgrims stuff.
Wolfe poaches from all these stories to make a melange which serves
his purpose in this story. Perhaps he makes a similar melange of mythological
characters with Father Inire, also to serve the purpose of this story.
 
Lest one think that any mythological story can be contorted into fitting 
into BotNS I'll mention that I did check into what is probably the most 
notable monkey-like god of the pagan world, the Hindu deity, Hanuman. I 
didn't find much at all that could suggest Wolfe had borrowed from him for 
Father Inire.
 
On the other hand there is the Chinese monkey-king, Sun Wukong, who travelled
with a monk from China to retrieve Buddhist scriptures from India.
 
>He acquired the powers of shapeshifting known as the "72 transformations", 
>supposedly the more versatile and difficult set of skills that allows him to 
>transform into every possible form of existence, including people and objects. 
>He also learned about cloud-traveling, including a technique called the J?nd?uy?n
>which covers 108,000 li (54,000 km or 33,554 mi) in a single flip. Finally, he 
>could transform each of the 84,000 hairs on his body into inanimate objects and
>living beings, or even clones of himself.
 
I see some possibility for BotNS poaching there.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:52:24 +0000

> Fenrir, any more than I was suggesting that he IS the baboon-headed

Are there any other cases in the Sun books of
- a proper name that isn't a real historical proper name
- a proper name that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper name?
- a title that is a pun/mangled version of a real historical proper name?

These are commonplace in fantastic literature, but I'm unsure when it's 
Wolfe we're talking about. I do have the idea that there's Wolfean 
precedent, but I can't recall where.

---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:04:14 +0000

2010/7/12 Ant?nio Pedro Marques entonio at gmail.com

> precedent, but I can't recall where.

Or a proper name that is the infinitive form a verb?

I don't see the Fenrir thing, but I also don't see the Latin "inire". The
name is a real puzzle.
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:22:26 +0000

>>which covers 108,000 li (54,000 km or 33,554 mi) in a single flip.

He could save some effort by leaping only 8,544 miles.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:34:04 +0000

Sun Wukong is in some ways the Chinese version of Hanuman.

Hanuman is a monkey general, leader of a monkey army, spy and advisor to
Rama, who is a human king and God in his offtime. He is a manifestation of
the Wind.

.

>>>supposedly the more versatile and difficult set of skills that allows
>>> him
>>>to
>>>He also learned about cloud-traveling, including a technique called the
>>>J??nd??uy??n

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:23:46 +0000

On 7/12/2010 8:52 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> These are commonplace in fantastic literature, but I'm unsure when 
> it's Wolfe we're talking about. I do have the idea that there's 
> Wolfean precedent, but I can't recall where.

Well, I'm the guy who argues that the word "inhuma" comes from a complex 
and multi-layered word association with the name "Dionysus", so swim at 
your own risk. Puns are a tricky thing to emphatically prove, I know 
from experience. Usually, the punned terms and names have a ready casual 
association as well. But Inire is another matter. In answer to your 
question, I can't think of another instance in which Wolfe breaks his 
established naming precedents so emphatically...and well...*badly*. So I 
say Inire's singularity is part of the argument FOR a word game in this 
instance.

The hierodules Ossipago, Barbatus, and Famulimus are named after minor 
divine beings or, in Ossipago's case, a minor name for Hera. They are 
not named for saints (except in that saints are often Christianized 
minor divinities). It is not unreasonable to expect that Inire would be 
named for a minor god as well. What if "Father Inire" is a malformation 
of the actual name he gave...a name that was difficult for those whom he 
first encountered to pronounce or even hear properly. That would explain 
why he is the only one with the title "Father": When he said "Fenrir", 
they heard "Father Inire" or that was an approximation they chose. Just 
as Horn named his new girlfriend "Seawrack" because it was close to the 
foreign sounding name she gave. And, as with O,B, & F, "Fenrir" would be 
a name that suites Inire's role--not in nurturing Severian as they 
do--but something more final: bringing the New Sun and the end of Urth. 
I guess Fenrir isn't the only possible option but it certainly fits the 
bill. And Fenrir's actions are also associated with the name they gave 
him: the the Latin "finire", meaning "to end".

Or perhaps, for Fr Inire's name is a later malformation. The name Fenrir 
would place him from an ancient Time, as John Watkins suggests: the time 
of Typhon, Erebus, Abia, and the rest when powerful persons were named 
for monsters, not saints. True, the Cargo in _The Book of the Long Sun_ 
were named after saints, but they weren't "powers". On the other hand, 
Typhon's family certainly took the names of monsters when they became 
powers on the Whorl.

In _The Book of the Long Sun_ & _The Book of the Short Sun_ a great 
*deal* is made of names, which follow a conscious structure and show the 
connection of family members---not only based on flower and animal 
concepts but also on the structure of the names themselves. At one 
point, Silk mulls his possible brotherhood with Sand in some 
metaphysical sense because their names both start with "S" and have the 
same number of letters.

Typhon's name itself is stripped from Egyptian Sun mythology as the 
enemy of Osirus. That sets him as a foil against Severian. But then 
neither Osirus's nor Zeus's Typhon had two heads. So that's a kind of 
break with precedent as well since it associates him instead with 
certain Kabbalist figures and with two-faced Janus, the god of doorways 
(which sort of associates him with "Inire", doesn't it, since "inire" 
means "to enter"). Typhon's name in _The Book of the Long Sun_ is "Pas", 
claimed to be associated with a term for "father": tenuous in any _real_ 
sense, but (I argue) intended to associate him with the god Pan.

u+16b9

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:04:09 +0000

James Wynn wrote (12-07-2010 18:23):
> What if "Father Inire" is a malformation of the actual name he gave...a
> name that was difficult for those whom he first encountered to pronounce
>  or even hear properly.

Quite possible, I just mentioned the same for Jonas.

> Typhon's name itself is stripped from Egyptian Sun mythology as the enemy
> of Osirus. That sets him as a foil against Severian. But then neither
> Osirus's nor Zeus's Typhon had two heads. So that's a kind of break with
> precedent as well since it associates him instead with certain Kabbalist
> figures and with two-faced Janus, the god of doorways (which sort of
> associates him with "Inire", doesn't it, since "inire" means "to
> enter").

The thing I don't like with the 'to enter' parsing is that it's an
infinitive, though I don't think that's an obstacle. I mean, I don't like it
because I'd rather not have Wolfe resort to an infinitive there, but that
has little import on its plausibility.

> Typhon's name in _The Book of the Long Sun_ is "Pas", claimed to be
> associated with a term for "father": tenuous in any _real_ sense, but (I
>  argue) intended to associate him with the god Pan.

And Pas was exactly the precendent (well, in fact a postcedent) I was
thinking of but couldn't put my finger on it. It's not an attested or
composite name, or at least nobody found it out yet, hence the tenative
connection to Pan (which I don't like because of the phonetics, but see above).

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:11:59 +0000

James Wynn, I liked your previous post about names. I
also think A.P. Marques raises a legitimate concern about a Fenrir
origin. Other authors are likely to distort to disguise a mythological 
name but Wolfe seems to prefer retaining the orginal name and distorting
the character for disguise. So we probably need a real version of "Inire"
to understand the meaning/origin of the name.
 
I was remembering that Borski observed that Hiero-types are given Roman
names while maybe monsters get the Greek names or something like that. I
was doing a search to refresh my memory and bumped into this description of
Inuus-
 
>In ancient Roman religion, Inuus was a god, or aspect of a god, who embodied
>copulation. The evidence for him as a distinct entity is scant. Servius says
>that Inuus is an epithet of Faunus (Greek Pan), as were Fatuus and Fatulcus,
>named from his habit of intercourse with animals, based on the etymology of
>ineundum, "a going in, penetration," from inire,[1] "to enter" in the sexual
>sense.[2] 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuus

I'd seen the "to enter" meaning of "inire" mentioned before but not so much 
that it might be a specifically sexual reference. The mention of mating with
animals is rather intriguing to me since I am exploring the possibility that 
Father Inire has sexually acted on his attraction to young girls to the point
of mating with most/all of the female members of Severian's family, including
his own daughters. Perhaps "mating with animals" does not mean the same thing
to a hiero race being that we would take it to mean.....
 
On the other hand, considering the man-apes in the cave and the dog-men guarding
the gold wagon, maybe it does.
 
I am thinking the connection of Inuus/Inire to Faunus and Pan/Pas (the pas version
being the origin of "pastoral") might be even more interesting for you. 
 
Who was it that was recently suggesting Severian could be a version of Inire recently?
That seemed pretty far fetched or even tongue-in-cheek. But I think the idea that Silk
is a cloned version of Pas is reasonably well accepted maybe? 
 
(I always wondered which of Typhon's heads was Typhon and which was Piaton.  
Silk cloned from Pas would answer that, based on hair color).
 
Anyway, so if Typhon=Pas=Inire, then the idea of Severian as a some version or 
offspring of Inire becomes....possible? Either way, I must think all this suggests
the "Inire" epithet for Pan becomes a very good candidate for the origin of the 
padre's name.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:25:43 +0000

Some thoughts...

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:

> I brought it up and missed the (somewhat obvious in retrospect) sexual
valence of the word.  I would simply add that there's a possibility that the
meaning is sexual but not especially descriptive of Inire's personal
proclivities--he may be interested in mating animals with each other either
in collaboration with the Heirogrammates breeding program or for a rival
breeding program.  I don't say this, though, to exclude your
hypothesis--it's just that this hypothesis is the first reason I've seen to
seriously consider Inire as sexually interested in humans.

> That seemed pretty far fetched or even tongue-in-cheek.

Me again, and I was joking.

> But I think the idea that Silk

I think it's one of many reasonable hypotheses.  He's unlikely to be a
strict clone of Typhon--he's almost certainly genetically enhanced in some
way--but Typhon's souped-up clone is a good bet.

> offspring of Inire becomes....possible?

I think the weak link here is the idea that Typhon and Inire are one and the
same.  There's maybe some onomastic link, but we have no other reason to
accept this, and in order to accept it we have to believe some pretty stange
things--Typhon preserved himself not only via "possible rehydration
resurrection" and by copying his personality into the Whorl (and maybe other
ships too!) but by finding some way to put his soul in the body of a bent
old monkey-looking fella?  This bent old money-looking Typhon is content to
be the power behind the throne, instead of ruling himself?

> Either way, I must think all this suggests

It's certainly worth considering, but we should probably recall that
"Typhon," the monster, is who the dude is.  "Pas," the Pan-derived god, is
who he *pretends to be*.  If Pas and Inire share a common link to Pan, I
expect only the latter is genuine.

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From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:30:01 +0000

2010/7/12 Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>

> connection to Pan (which I don't like because of the phonetics, but see
Wolfe makes the connection of Pas and Pan ("all") explicit.
When Scylla possesses Chenille  she explains that the gods are Pas's family,
saying   "with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name
meant--and the boss over everybody."  (LotLS, ch 11)

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:48:33 +0000

> Promised Land whenvever he pleased despite what God told him.

That may have been a bit hasty, but the even though the fettered Fenrir
was tied to Gyoll, Inire is awfully mobile about his duty station and
commands means of egress and ingress - his position is more like
Heimdall guarding Bifrost and standing sentry over doings in distant
places on other worlds. It doesn't hurt that Heimdal is also the
"Father" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet!

But I don't think this makes Father Inire part Heimdall or part of
Fenrir the way Frog is very much part Mowgli, just that letting people
identify their concerns with an exalted parallel is what makes myth and
legend endure.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:10:05 +0000

> being the origin of "pastoral") might be even more interesting for you.

I do! I like a lot.  "Inuus" (the enterer) links to Inire's name, to 
Typhon as Pan, and to Typhon as the two faced Janus, god of doorways.

> the "Inire" epithet for Pan becomes a very good candidate for the origin of the

If Inire=Inuus, then it would follow that Father is a literal title. But 
the obvious question is "father of whom or what?"

Typhon? Ymar? Ouen? All of them? I recall that Don Doggett posited that 
Sev was a clone of one of those black beans in the story of  "Spring 
Wind" (Typhon). But where is Inire in the old stories? It's moments like 
these when we realize how little we know about the hierodules. There's 
too many options in this line of inquiry. We need another clue!

> Other authors are likely to distort to disguise a mythological
> the character for disguise.

This is true, generally. Although we do have the example of Seawrack.

> The mention of mating with animals is rather intriguing to me since I am
> exploring the possibility that Father Inire has sexually acted on his
> attraction to young girls to the point of mating with most/all of the
> female members of Severian's family, including his own daughters.
> Perhaps "mating with animals" does not mean the same thing to a hiero
> race being that we would take it to mean.....

The idea of Inire mating with humans seems far-fetched except that Wolfe 
really likes the idea of interspecies and apparent- interspecies mating. 
In "Fifth Head", Sandwalker (apparently) has a cat for a girlfriend. And 
in An Evil Guest, the Woldercons mate and breed across species. In the 
Book of the Short Sun, Jahlee the inhuma accompanies the Rajan to Urth 
in the form of a beautiful woman and has as much sex as possible. It's a 
faeryworld/mythical motif that seems to appeal to Wolfe. So, yeah, this 
is possible. In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young 
women...not for sex per se but strictly for procreation.

> Silk cloned from Pas would answer that, based on hair color).

I recall that Sev determines this in his conversation with Typhon in UotNS.

u+16b9

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:14:30 +0000

> I recall that Sev determines this in his conversation with Typhon in UotNS.

Ummmmm..... the one that talks is Typhon. Piaton is unable to speak
but mouths a message to Severian.

There is enough information to determine the rest from that fact.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:18:33 +0000

From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
> In "Fifth Head", Sandwalker (apparently) has a cat for a girlfriend.

I'm pretty sure I missed that bit!

AFAIK Seven Girls Waiting is Sandwalker's only lover in the story, and she 
is no cat.

> And in An Evil Guest, the Woldercons mate and breed across species. In the 
> Book of the Short Sun, Jahlee the inhuma accompanies the Rajan to Urth in 
> the form of a beautiful woman and has as much sex as possible. It's a 
> faeryworld/mythical motif that seems to appeal to Wolfe. So, yeah, this is 
> possible. In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young 

Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:22:06 +0000

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote:

>> In Fifth Head, the clones are also interested in young women...not
>> for sex per se but strictly for procreation.

> Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument.

You forget the "control" "brothers."

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:22:45 +0000

>
>
>> The idea of Inire mating with humans seems far-fetched except that 
>> Wolfe really likes the idea of interspecies and apparent- 
>> interspecies mating. In "Fifth Head", Sandwalker (apparently) has a 
>> cat for a girlfriend.
>
> AFAIK Seven Girls Waiting is Sandwalker's only lover in the story, and 
> she is no cat.

Oops! I meant V.R.T.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:27:40 +0000

>> Procreation for them is cloning... I don't get your argument.

My argument is that Fr Inire's interest in young girls might not be 
Platonic and yet still be procreative.

>
> You forget the "control" "brothers.

Somehow, I never imagined Maitre making David "the old fashioned way". 
You're right that he could have I suppose. But we don't have any 
examples of "controls" being sold off. So, again, it's not about the 
sex. But, then again, being unstated does not preclude its existence.

u+16b9

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:50:11 +0000

> "Father" of the classes of men, in disguise as another person yet

Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you pull me 
back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the Norse Janus. The 
link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus who was variously 
associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the father of humanity, fits 
right in there. That leaves us here with reasonable mythological 
associations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.

The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit for 
any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in one way. 
He is an important father too...he's the father of the race of wolves. 
And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a mythical river.

u+16b9

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:50:21 +0000

On 7/12/2010 3:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Gerry Quinn<gerryq at indigo.ie>  wrote:
>

And regardless of genetics, the baby has to gestate somewhere. Rather 
than go to the expense of glassware, nutrients, and telemetery, a 
healthy broad-hipped woman is naturally suited. And if she's already in 
your employ, she can go on earning for a couple of trimesters or even 
later, depending on your clientele.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:06:58 +0000

> Platonic and yet still be procreative. 

might BE Platonic, that is.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:33:29 +0000

All of the speculation and mystery make me consider "Father Inquiry" as a
possible pun?  (Assuming it's "in-ee-rey" rather than "in-ire-ay" or
somesuch.)

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:46:58 +0000

The reader for Audible.com's audiobook (John Davis, I think)
pronounces it "in-EER."  For what it's worth, I always pronounced it
"in-EER-ay," but I've been told I have a rather thick Texan accent
that colors my choice of pronunciations.

LH

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:33 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:
> possible pun???(Assuming it's "in-ee-rey" rather than "in-ire-ay" or
> somesuch.)
>

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:47:28 +0000

John Watkins wrote (12-07-2010 22:33):
> All of the speculation and mystery make me consider "Father Inquiry" as
> a possible pun?  (Assuming it's "in-ee-rey" rather than "in-ire-ay" or
> somesuch.)

I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like 
something else mistranscribed?

The 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an 
enlgish transalation of a misheard original.

'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r], 
[InI'r at I]?

['] stresses the syllable following it
[I] short i
[@] the uh sound in -er
[i] long i
[T] th

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:50:47 +0000

> the obvious question is "father of whom or what?"

I always associate Father Inire with Dworkin from Zelazny's Amber novels. 
Dworkin is supposed to have fathered the king of Amber through a unicorn. 
(The king was AWOL during the novels.) That would make Inire Typhon's father 
or something.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:34:04 +0000

On 7/12/2010 4:50 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> I always associate Father Inire with Dworkin from Zelazny's Amber
> novels. Dworkin is supposed to have fathered the king of Amber through a
> unicorn. (The king was AWOL during the novels.)

Um....Didn't you think it was kind of odd the way Corwin's henchman 
Gamelon from a Shadow was able to one-punch Girard, the biggest, 
toughest brawler on the true earth?

I see Oberon as being more like Inire: the crafty, hidden manipulator 
and kingmaker, but there's a bit of the old Autarch's multiple guises 
and manipulating both sides as a double-double agent.

Both series deal with some similar themes, and Zelazny's attitude is 
very different from Wolfe's, but it is interesting how close the 
internal attitudes of Corwin and Severian are, while ending up in 
opposite directions. Both acknowledge they are villainous, selfish men 
but regrettably find themselves the best of a bad lot, but the much more 
self-confident Corwin refuses the throne he'd sought after while the 
self-doubting Severian embraces literal responsibility for everyone on Urth.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:52:42 +0000

Given Inire's role with respect to time and mirror portals, the 
infinitive seems perflectly plausible.

One might reflect that Severian's name could be taken to be a rather 
obvous pun as well.

Adam

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:09:24 +0000

> One might reflect that Severian's name could be taken to be a rather

"Bob" would've been funnier

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:21:45 +0000

Well, Tzadkiel is the demiurge. There's no doubt about that at 
all---he's the highest of the low, not the lowest of the high. And 
Christian dualism was imported straight from Persia, so ....

He's not Satan though---that's merely a Muslim insult.

I doubt it was Patrick O'Brien, but I'm curious as to the reference. 
David Chacko? Edward D. Hoch?

Mr Thalassocrat wrote:
> Finally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging 
> me. When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a 
> no-good, it put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that 
> I'd read of (in a Patrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some 
> middle-Eastern sect. Tzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as 
> peacock-ish.
>
> Yazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis ("the liar"), 
> except for the Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the 
> favored status of Man.
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 100711-1, 07/11/2010
> Tested on: 7/11/2010 7:07:13 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:44:04 +0000

I assume that there are so few "people" left on Urth (subtract the 
not-quite-human and failed Ascians, who may well control the rest of the 
planet, and some outlying tribes) that this is not a real concern.

Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:
> If Tzadkiel is honest, his intent is to renew the planet and give 
> Humanity a new chance. If there is an afterlife then drowning almost 
> everyone isn't such a catastrophe as it might seem. The fact is that 
> the world is in dire need of moral cleansing, not only terraforming, 
> and I don't see how you achieve the former without some global 
> disaster that at once decimates the population and changes the natural 
> environment. The new world will have a chance to be good.
>
> destroying the world. Sure, he could do it out of sheer evilness, but 
> I don't find it convincing that he would take all that trouble just to 
> have a 5 minute massacre sport. We tend to associate evil with 
> selfishness, and to annihilate your potential servants makes little 
> sense selfishly. And if the intent is to take pleasure in killing 
> them, then a global drowning is possibly one of the least interesting 
> methods - quick and clean. If otoh he wishes to wipe out Humanity for 
> whatever reason, giving a renewed planet to a reduced population seems 
> to run counter to the objective.
>
> Moreover, if Tzadkiel could send the new sun to destroy the world, why 
> not just do it without all the hocus pocus? And if he didn't have that 
> power all by himself, then whoever did have the power is calling the 
> shots, not Tzakdiel.
>
> You mention Severian could have asked for the population to be 
> evacuated. Well, could the building of the Whorl have been done not 
> out of fear that the sun would die out, but that the flood could be 
> irreparably deleterious? And where would you take all those wicked 
> people, and how would you reform them? If it were easy, what would a 
> new Earth be needed for? In the dying earth future, my impression is 
> that the population had been steadily declining for ages.
>
> well? I suppose your idea is that he is so embroiled in Tzadkiel's way 
> of presenting things that such a question doesn't even cross his mind.
> Tested on: 7/11/2010 7:07:42 PM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:02:44 +0000

Exactly. And this does not make Tzadkiel evil, but he is not good either.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:20:43 +0000

On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:

> I suppose the default pronunciation is ['fAT at rI'naI at r]. Does this look like something else mistranscribed?
> 
> The 'father' part is more or less established, unless 'father' itself is an enlgish transalation of a misheard original.
> 
> 'Inire' itself doesn't seem to offer many possibilities. ['InIri], [I'ni at r], [InI'r at I]?
> 

I've always assumed it's pronounced:

FAH-thur in-AYr (aka father-in-ire)

no?

...ryan

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:32:44 +0000

Wow. I knew "inire" but I did not know "finire." That's plenty of 
solution for me.

But I agree that these are not "real" names. Inire probably has his own 
name, which we don't know.

James Wynn wrote:
> Well, I'm the guy who argues that the word "inhuma" comes from a 
> complex and multi-layered word association with the name "Dionysus", 
> so swim at your own risk. Puns are a tricky thing to emphatically 
> prove, I know from experience. Usually, the punned terms and names 
> have a ready casual association as well. But Inire is another matter. 
> In answer to your question, I can't think of another instance in which 
> Wolfe breaks his established naming precedents so emphatically...and 
> well...*badly*. So I say Inire's singularity is part of the argument 
> FOR a word game in this instance.
>
> minor divinities). It is not unreasonable to expect that Inire would 
> be named for a minor god as well. What if "Father Inire" is a 
> malformation of the actual name he gave...a name that was difficult 
> for those whom he first encountered to pronounce or even hear 
> properly. That would explain why he is the only one with the title 
> "Father": When he said "Fenrir", they heard "Father Inire" or that was 
> an approximation they chose. Just as Horn named his new girlfriend 
> "Seawrack" because it was close to the foreign sounding name she gave. 
> And, as with O,B, & F, "Fenrir" would be a name that suites Inire's 
> role--not in nurturing Severian as they do--but something more final: 
> bringing the New Sun and the end of Urth. I guess Fenrir isn't the 
> only possible option but it certainly fits the bill. And Fenrir's 
> actions are also associated with the name they gave him: the the Latin 
> "finire", meaning "to end".
>
>

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:01:57 +0000

> FAH-thur in-AYr (aka father-in-ire)

I.e. ['fAT at rI'naI at r]

> no?

LH says an audiobook has in-EER [I'ni at r] while his? own pronunciation is 
in-EER-ay [I'ni at re].

I default to your pronunciation as well, but something about the name always 
makes me think of [I'ni at r] as an alternative (maybe it's because that kind 
of rhymes with vizier).

---

From: Andy Robertson <pinlighter at btconnect.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:57:39 +0000

-----Original Message-----
From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net on behalf of David Stockhoff
Sent: Tue 13/07/2010 00:21
To: The Urth Mailing List
Subject: Re: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus
 
>>I doubt it was Patrick O'Brien, 

It was

 - hartshorn
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From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:18:51 +0000

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Andy Robertson
<pinlighter at btconnect.com>wrote:

> Thanks for that. I'd like to check out some EHP - anything you would
recommend?
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From: Andy Robertson <pinlighter at btconnect.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:57:06 +0000

-----Original Message-----
From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net on behalf of Mr Thalassocrat
recommend?

Alas, no.   I only know of him thru HPL's letters.  He seems to have been  talented hack.

- hartshorn
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From: Thomas Bitterman <tom at bitterman.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:12:05 +0000

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you pull me back
> in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the Norse Janus. The link
> between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus who was variously associated with
> all of them. Heimdall, as the father of humanity, fits right in there. That
> leaves us here with reasonable mythological associations for Typhon,
> Severian, and Inire.
>
> The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit for any
> this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in one way. He is an
> important father too...he's the father of the race of wolves. And, yeah, his
> rock is Gyoll which is also a mythical river.
>

Fenrir as father of "Wolfe"s is good enough for me.
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:48:08 +0000

It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch 
for a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.

The words "inire" and "finire" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are 
enough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical "Fr. 
Inire." He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a 
mystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.

I'll bet the man is a mean crossword puzzler.

Thomas Bitterman wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com 
> <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Just when I'm ready to leave the Norse association behind, you
>     pull me back in. You're right about Heimdall because he's the
>     Norse Janus. The link between Janus, Pan, and Osirus is Priapus
>     who was variously associated with all of them. Heimdall, as the
>     father of humanity, fits right in there. That leaves us here with
>     reasonable mythological associations for Typhon, Severian, and Inire.
>
>     The only frustrating thing is that the monster Typhon doesn't fit
>     for any this. Fenrir doesn't fit for any of this either except in
>     one way. He is an important father too...he's the father of the
>     race of wolves. And, yeah, his rock is Gyoll which is also a
>     mythical river.
>
>
> Virus Database (VPS): 100712-1, 07/12/2010
> Tested on: 7/13/2010 10:12:33 AM

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:59:49 +0000

Fascinating.

I only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.

F E N R I R

F R I N I R E

One too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:

I, Fenrir

or we get back to origins:

Fenrir I

As in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned descendants.

...ryan

On Jul 13, 2010, at 10:48 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

> It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch for a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.
> 
> The words "inire" and "finire" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) are enough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical "Fr. Inire." He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a mystery, he facilitates the end with the last Autarch.
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:50 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:02:54 +0000

> One too many I's, unless we get epically poetic:

Plausible.  We live in a universe in which J.K. Rowling indulges in similar
games.

> As in Fenrir the First, with Fechin and Rudesind (boatman?) as cloned

I don't think so.  Clones who don't look much like the original?

> > It seems like a stretch, but I for one expect that Wolfe will stretch for
> a wolf reference. I think he expects us to expect that of him.
> >
> enough to start us off on that path, combined with the logical "Fr. Inire."
> He probably began the Autarchy, he initiates Urth into a mystery, he
> facilitates the end with the last Autarch.
> >
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:08:19 +0000

I'm very impressed with how you snuck that conclusion in there. ;)

Granted, the wolf is not critical to the story---almost a tease. But I 
think a cacogen hitching his star, so to speak, to Ushas is just similar 
enough to being chained to a rock when you have the entire universe open 
to you as master of Doors, to be impossible to ignore.

Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Tested on: 7/13/2010 11:00:35 AM

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:10:51 +0000

F E N R I R
E X O A T E
N O X I O S
R A I L M N
I T O M A C
R E S N C E

.

---

From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:42:27 +0000

I'd like to solve the puzzle, Pat. I mean buy a vowel. No wait...

...ryan

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:45:41 +0000

On 7/13/2010 9:59 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
> Fascinating. I only wish Fr. Inire to Fenrir was a true anagram.
>
> F E N R I R
> F R I N I R E
>

As has been noted before, tBotNS has references to Robert Graves' "I, 
Claudius".

On 7/13/2010 9:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:
> The words "inire" and "finire" (initiate/begin and bring to an end) 
> are enough to start us off on that path,

It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with 
parallels to Christ.

u+16b9

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:47:19 +0000

It's a particularly tasty one.

You never know where these things are going.

.

>>>> are

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:51:37 +0000

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with parallels
>> to Christ.
>>
>> Heh.

Inire.

Severian.

Thecla.

There's another trinity for you.  Quite literally the father who created the
Autarchy and brought it to its end, his (presumably figurative) son, the
scion of the father's ages of planning and manipulation (including possibly
genetic manipulation?) and the pretty-literal ghost.

I kind of like the notion that, contra Witz, Severian is the logos of Inire,
not the Increate.

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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:04:45 +0000

Ah.

"I, the Alpha/Omega."

James Wynn wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100713-0, 07/13/2010
> Tested on: 7/13/2010 11:47:06 AM

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:09:10 +0000

But who's the archon of this universe? Inire, appropriately mysterious 
and aged as a Titan, or Tzadkiel, violator of all known laws of scale 
and appearance? Is one ruler below and the other ruler above?

The Titans rebelled against Time. Hmm...

John Watkins wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com 
>         It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one
>         with parallels to Christ.
>
> Heh.
>  
> Inire.
>  
> Severian.
>  
> Thecla.
>  
> There's another trinity for you.  Quite literally the father who 
> created the Autarchy and brought it to its end, his (presumably 
> figurative) son, the scion of the father's ages of planning and 
> manipulation (including possibly genetic manipulation?) and the 
> pretty-literal ghost.
>  
> I kind of like the notion that, contra Witz, Severian is the logos of 
> Inire, not the Increate.
>  
>
>     u+16b9
>
>     To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net>
>     Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net <http://www.urth.net/>
>
>
> Tested on: 7/13/2010 11:52:05 AM

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:25:12 +0000

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> But who's the archon of this universe? Inire, appropriately mysterious and
> aged as a Titan, or Tzadkiel, violator of all known laws of scale and
> appearance? Is one ruler below and the other ruler above?
>

Maybe it's as simple as this:  Inire is the archon of Urth and Tzadkiel is
the archon of Briah.

On the pure level of plot, I think we can conclude that Tzadkiel's agenda
and Inire's are pretty similar.  Tzadkiel wants Briah's human beings to
evolve into Hieros.  He doesn't care which line of humanity does it, and he
doesn't need them all to turn into Hieros--he just needs some Hieros.

Inire wants the humans on Urth to stick around.  Because of the black hole
in the sun, that requires propitiating Tzadkiel.  So his long-range goal
(what the good folks at TvTropes.org would call a "Xanatos gambit") is to
produce through the Autarchy a savior figure who will convince Tzadkiel that
Urth is worth keeping around.  He's advancing Tzadkiel's goals, although
maybe for his own reasons.  This raises two questions:

1)  Does Inire care about turning humans into Hieros?

2)  Are there Inire-esque figures on other human-populated planets?  Is
there a crooked old Hierodule winding his way to Green or Blue even as the
Short Sun ends?

I dunno.

>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:45 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com <mailto:
>> crushtv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  There's another trinity for you.  Quite literally the father who created
>> the Autarchy and brought it to its end, his (presumably figurative) son, the
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:47:13 +0000

From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
>>> ['] stresses the syllable following it

You know "long i" in American English means the vowel in "eye", /aI/?  We use 
"long" for the vowel sounds that "say their names".  The usage in other 
English-speaking is different, I think.

>> [T] th

(You want /D/ for the "th" in "father".)

> LH says an audiobook has in-EER [I'ni at r] while his? own pronunciation is 

I'm with Lane: I pronounce it in foreign, /@n'ireI/.  (I don't have a Texas 
accent.)

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:54:22 +0000

>?(I don't have a Texas

No one's perfect.

LH

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:00:58 +0000

> No one's perfect.

Many Texans seem to believe themselves so, possibly through confusion of
meaning of the terms loud and perfect.

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:16:26 +0000

> It appears that Severian is, potentially, not the only one with 

Incidentally, "finire" means "to end" and also "to limit". Terminus Est 
also has these dual meanings, essentially.

u+16b9

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:23:01 +0000

Referring to their shirts? You may be thinking of Hawaiians.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>  (I don't have a Texas
> Tested on: 7/13/2010 3:02:09 PM

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:26:47 +0000

>> meaning of the terms loud and perfect.

Ironic. "Loud" is the stereotype that Texans and other southerners have 
of yankees. And it is the stereotype that Europeans have of Americans. 
Perhaps if you don't like the idea of someone, anything they say is too 
loud.

u+16b9

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:36:35 +0000

Texans aren't Southerners.  And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning
anyone from the north of Dallas) is that they add unnecessary "gs" to
the end of words endin' in "in'."

LH

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:43:45 +0000

You're on thing ice, Lane.

Lane Haygood wrote:
> Tested on: 7/13/2010 3:38:09 PM

---

From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:45:26 +0000

I guess you've all heard what was labeled as one of the 2 funniest jokes in a recent survey..

A Texan moves to NYC and goes to a local bar. He turns to the man in a business suit next him and says in a friendly manner

"Where are you from?"

The guy in the suit turns to him and says in a condescending manner

"I am from where people don't end their sentences with prepositions."

And the Texan replies....
???????? ? ? 
?Mobile — (415) 786-3624
STUHAMM.COM
FACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM
myspace.com/stuhamm
Skype? stuart.hamm
? ?? 

--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) lots of stuff
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 12:36 PM

LH
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:45:57 +0000

> the end of words endin' in "in'.

In this case, I meant "southerners" in the sense of any state that was 
on the right side of the Great Cause. ;-) That is, those who would use 
the term "yankee" as I did. My family have called themselves Texans 
since at least sometime shortly after it stopped being Mexico, so I 
realized they don't like being lumped with Oklahoma, Louisiana, and 
parts beyond. No offense was intended, I assure you.

u+16b9

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:00:08 +0000

I know, I know.  I'm pullin' y'all's legs.

LH

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:14:12 +0000

Talks to much is the stereotype people from south AZ have of everyone else.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:16:22 +0000

> Texans aren't Southerners.

As everyone from the South and Southwest agrees.

>                            And my only stereotype of Yankees (meaning

That and they want to mess everything up.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:19:10 +0000

Supporters of the right are Southerners, wherever and whenever born.

.

---

From: hammstu at sbcglobal.net <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:20:43 +0000

No one's gonna post the punch line???
Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed

-----Original Message-----
From: brunians at brunians.org
Sender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:19:10 
To: The Urth Mailing List<urth at lists.urth.net>
Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) lots of stuff

.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:51:39 +0000

>No one's gonna post the punch line???

The punch line of the preposition joke?  Something like "Okay, where are you 
from, asshole?"

I first heard this thirty years ago with Harvard instead of New York City, a 
"hick" or "redneck" instead of a Texan (I think), and "Whatchoo lookin' at?" as 
the question.  I like that better, since no one in his or her right mind would 
"correct" the grammar of "Where are you from?" and pedantry is a better 
stereotype for Harvard than for New York.

Of course, it would be off-topic to mention that New Mexico has fought off three 
invasions from Texas, especially since we're now happy to allow Texans in as 
long as they pay.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:05:19 +0000

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:24 PM, Mr Thalassocrat
<thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> Anyway, if Wolfe was thinking along those lines & did make use of aspects
> of the Melek Taus figure, I guess that use was  pretty specific to the
> concerns of BOTNS/UOTNS. The closest figure I can think of in other works is
> The Lowest God from W-K, but even though he may well be a de-winged angel,
> he fits a different "error" (ie "lowest = highest", rather than "wrong
> highest").
>
>
Thanks for bringing this up, this gives me some food for thought with regard
to the "down is up" thing I am on about lately.

E.g. Typhon throws Severian into the sled, they plummet downwards, then
arrive at the very top of Typon's mountain fastness, and Severian asks
Typhon how they could have come up so high, when they had just fallen so
far.
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From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:17:44 +0000

ha...!

???????? ? ? 

--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) lots of stuff
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 1:51 PM

From: "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>

Jerry Friedman

? ? ? 
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From: Rob Thornton <oblate777 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:47:13 +0000

Could

> Typhon how they could have come up so high, when they had just fallen so

If I remember correctly, the Autarch's craft employs "anti-iron" as
some sort of contra-terrene matter that repels gravity. Maybe this
sled is made of such stuff and they are facing backwards?

Cautiously,

Rob

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:19:56 +0000

On 07/13/2010 02:45 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:
> A Texan moves to NYC and goes to a local bar. He turns to the man in a 
> business suit next him and says in a friendly manner
>
> "Where are you from?"
>

"Pray pardon me for my lack of grammar, sir.  Where are you from, asshole?"

Adam
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From: Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 02:53:52 +0000

> sled is made of such stuff and they are facing backwards?
Of course. But I would never think a nifty science-fictioney reading would
preclude an allegorical or symbolic reading.
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 04:05:59 +0000

On 7/13/2010 9:53 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:
>     On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com
>     <mailto:transentient at gmail.com>> wrote:
>

Typhon responds, "Why should gravity serve Urth, when it can serve 
Typhon?" I interpret this as an adjustable antigravity effect, where the 
sled and Severian's viscera fall freely as the acceleration of gravity 
is reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to cease rising at 
its destination and then lock in place. The flier's buoyancy seems to be 
always present, but uses conventional action-reaction propulsion to 
move, causing the screaming noise that accompanies the hasty departure 
of of Vodalus , and explaining why people riding in them don't feel as 
though they are falling.

Reverse-matter buoyancy has made something of a comeback with Robert L. 
Foreward's notion of "negative mass", but at the time gravity-reversal 
of antimatter was an obsoleted SF device since word had gotten around 
the readership that antimatter was only electrically reversed, not 
gravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use of this outdated concept 
alongside a similar but distinct outdted antigravity concept makes me 
wonder if the mirror-traveling trick of accelerating light and the 
reflected  objects across or beyond the universe was also a plot device 
previously used band then discarded by previous authors.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:32:04 +0000

I always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. I 
had no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has the 
effect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like ballistae and 
water clocks.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> Typhon?" I interpret this as an adjustable antigravity effect, where 
> the sled and Severian's viscera fall freely as the acceleration of 
> gravity is reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to cease 
> rising at its destination and then lock in place. The flier's buoyancy 
> seems to be always present, but uses conventional action-reaction 
> propulsion to move, causing the screaming noise that accompanies the 
> hasty departure of of Vodalus , and explaining why people riding in 
> them don't feel as though they are falling.
>
> Reverse-matter buoyancy has made something of a comeback with Robert 
> L. Foreward's notion of "negative mass", but at the time 
> gravity-reversal of antimatter was an obsoleted SF device since word 
> had gotten around the readership that antimatter was only electrically 
> reversed, not gravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use of this outdated 
> concept alongside a similar but distinct outdted antigravity concept 
> makes me wonder if the mirror-traveling trick of accelerating light 
> and the reflected  objects across or beyond the universe was also a 
> plot device previously used band then discarded by previous authors.
>

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:00:11 +0000

Baldanders has an anti-gravity belt too.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:28:23 +0000

Good one!

I should say, not just "pulp cliches" but Golden Age of Science Fiction 
cliches.

I think they are intended to suggest exactly the sense of "boyish" 
wonder that they do in fact inspire---but looking back, not forward.

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Stockhoff" 
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> I always suspected Wolfe of deliberately using pulp cliches in BotNS. 
>> I had no idea he applied the principle so thoroughly. It almost has 
>> the effect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like 
>> ballistae and water clocks.
>>
>> Jeff Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> gravity is reversed, then restored just in time for the sled to 
>>> cease rising at its destination and then lock in place. The flier's 
>>> buoyancy seems to be always present, but uses conventional 
>>> action-reaction propulsion to move, causing the screaming noise that 
>>> accompanies the hasty departure of of Vodalus , and explaining why 
>>> people riding in them don't feel as though they are falling.
>>>
>>> had gotten around the readership that antimatter was only 
>>> electrically reversed, not gravitationally. Wolfe's deliberate use 
>>> of this outdated concept alongside a similar but distinct outdted 
>>> antigravity concept makes me wonder if the mirror-traveling trick of 
>>> accelerating light and the reflected  objects across or beyond the 
>>> universe was also a plot device previously used band then discarded 
>>> by previous authors.
>>>
> Virus Database (VPS): 100714-0, 07/14/2010
> Tested on: 7/14/2010 8:18:00 AM

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:55:07 +0000

> stereotype for Harvard than for New York.

But with "Whatchoo lookin' at?" how do tie the answer to the question so neatly?

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:57:31 +0000

Jerry Friedman wrote (13-07-2010 19:47):
>
>
>
>
> From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques<entonio at gmail.com>
>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>

You're right. Should I have written 'long e', then? I can't bring myself to it.

> (You want /D/ for the "th" in "father".)

D'oh. Of course.

---

From: Steven Bowen <mcquaryq at comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:53:59 +0000

>> the obvious question is "father of whom or what?"

Has anyone remarked on the explanation given in Joyce's APOTAAAYM of  
the Latin phrase INRI being a schoolboy acrostic for Iron Nails Ran In?

Steve

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:01:49 +0000

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Steven Bowen <McQuaryq at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> Has anyone remarked on the explanation given in Joyce's APOTAAAYM of the
> Latin phrase INRI being a schoolboy acrostic for Iron Nails Ran In?
>
>

I could have sworn that that's from Ulysses, and it's Bloom thinking it.
Bloom thinks a lot of things about Catholicism that are factually wrong (for
example, he also contemplates the "fact" that nuns invented barbed wire,
which is of course false.)  In fact when I first read the book I felt that
Joyce was working in anti-Catholic propaganda that he either knew or ought
to know was false--upon rereading I felt that he was parodying it and
emphasizing Bloom's status as a cultural outsider.  (Not that Joyce isn't
criticizing the Church--he is, but he's far too smart to need to resort to
telling lies.)

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:14:09 +0000

INRI is what is called a formula. It has various readings.

It may have whatever acrostic meanings in whatever arbitrary languages
people wish to assign it.

There are many such formulae.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:22:38 +0000

> effect of reading about ancient, clever technologies like ballistae and

yes, exactly! only more briefly.   IIRC, Lem does a bit of this in his 
CYBERIAD.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:34:09 +0000

> wonder that they do in fact inspire---but looking back, not forward.

There are a few latter period ones, like the giant flying robot warriors 
guarding Typhon's mountain citadel. Of course, in the conceit of the 
Book as Dr Talos mentions, their existence in the future inspires people 
to dream about them and write about them in the Golden and Silver Ages!

And my earlier objection about how people would pick out a particular 
image out of the all images from all of time is a bit silly , 
considering they're non-physical notional technologies decorating a 
non-materialist's novel, like complaining that fairies are shown with 
wings of insufficient lifting area.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:37:49 +0000

I can't think of many things I have read which have the same emotional
effect upon me as Severian, Baldanders and Faustus together on the tower
in the rain, and the torchlight procession is coming, and Faustus is the
only one who sees.

The last few paragraphs of Dhalgren, possibly.

It is Gene's perfect take on Borges, in much the same fashion as Lathe of
Heaven is LeGuin's perfect take on Dick.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:46:15 +0000

> to dream about them and write about them in the Golden and Silver Ages!

You believe that this is a conceit?

This is an accurate description of Reality.

It has happened to me.

As I have mentioned, long before I read the Book of the New Sun, I would
have dreams, hallucinations or visions in which I was going to be taken by
aliens and tested somehow, and that if I failed the test I would be
castrated.

This was a feature of my internal life - and not a pleasant one - from the
age of ten or so.

I read the Book of the New Sun when it came out. It was immediately
obvious to me what had happened.

I was born in 1957.

If this happens in my personal timeline, why should such things not happen
in the historical timeline?

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:57:47 +0000

> the end of words endin' in "in'."

Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:20:46 +0000

They are Mexicans who seceded.

You people that know a lot kill me.

.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 01:20:11 +0000

> Not Southerners? Brownsville is as southern it gets, Pardner.

The South refers more to what we call the "Southeast" now.  Texas was
a part of the Confederacy, but not because we felt any particular
loyalty to Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas or Georgia.  We were
just a bunch of ig'nant racists that wanted to continue to own people.

In all seriousness though, Texans do not consider themselves to be
part of "the South," nor would Southerners admit Texans in to their
ranks willingly.  When Texas formed its unique identity, and Texans as
a people, it was as an independent nation.

And yes, it was an independent nation of Tejanos that seceded from
Mexico, with a little help from some uh... luminaries... from the
United States.  We showed 'em good at San Jacinto (which is pronounced
"SAN juh-SIN-tow," I tell you what.).

Seriously; as a fellow Texan, I'm sure Mr. Wolfe would agree with me
in this regard.  Even if he did go to that dark and terrible school
known as "A&M."

LH

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 01:53:03 +0000

Wouldn't say anything against Texans.

Basic waste of time to.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 04:42:16 +0000

> a people, it was as an independent nation.

The two need not be mutually exclusive. The whole Confederate movement 
was about maintaining the member states' unique identity and destiny as 
much as possible. And all the member states suffer from roughly equal 
proportions of disposessed gentry that descend from the finest 
carpetbagging families as the genuine articles.

> "SAN juh-SIN-tow," I tell you what.).

What part of Texas are you from? It's always "SAN juh-SIN-ta" 'round here.

> in this regard.  Even if he did go to that dark and terrible school

I'm a born and raised Texan myself, fellow Aggieland matriculant, and no 
other fellow Texans of my acquaintance have ever objected to being 
considered "southerners". Then again, this is all sampled from the 
eastern limb of Texas, which extends hundreds of miles further in 
various directions. Technically, it would be 10 miles shorter for me to 
visit yankees in Chicago than my neighbors in El Paso.

But perhaps I am biased; my greatgrandmother's maiden name was Davis, 
and I'm not the only Jeff in the family.

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 04:47:07 +0000

I'm originally from the Midland/Odessa area, though I went to law
school in Waco and UT for undergrad (hence my virulent hatred of
Aggies).  I currently live and work in the RGV but my accent is pure
Permian Basin.

LH

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 05:12:12 +0000

I am a good old rebel
Yes that's just what I am
For this fair land of freedom
I do not give a damn
I'm glad I fought against her
I only wish we'd won
And I don't want no pardon
For anything I done.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 05:15:31 +0000

I road with Robert E. Lee,
For three years, thereabout.
Got wounded in four places,
And starved at Point Lookout.
I caught the rheuamtism
A-campin in the snow.
But I killed a chance of yankees
And I'd like to kill some mo.

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 05:47:07 +0000

> Aggies).  I currently live and work in the RGV but my accent is pure

Hey, my first semester roomie was from Midland! This was the same year 
Baby Jessica fell down the well. I have a gaming buddy and a publisher 
from the same law school.

For those playing at home, while U.T. (we write it as tu) and A&M are 
big athletic rivals, in 1926 there was a half-time riot at Baylor that 
resulted in the death of Charles Milo Sessums '27 the following day. The 
unsupported legend is that the other cadets commandeered railstock to 
transport their training artillery with the intention of leveling the 
Baylor campus but were dissuaded, either by the Commandant or by Texas 
Rangers felling trees across the tracks. There was a documented 4 year 
cessation of play between the schools.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:01:58 +0000

Them Great War vets got up to some shit I'll tell you.

.

---

From: Steven Bowen <mcquaryq at comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 02:54:19 +0000

On Jul 13, 2010, at 5:05 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:

>  Severian asks Typhon how they could have come up so high, when  
> they had just fallen so far.

And Typhon replies:  Why shouldn't gravity obey my will?  Words to  
that effect.

Steve

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From: Steven Bowen <mcquaryq at comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 03:05:36 +0000

> INRI is what is called a formula. It has various readings.

Right, of course.  The original is said to stand for Jesus, King of  
the Jews?

Steve

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 03:16:08 +0000

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 03:17:20 +0000

Yup.

IESVS?NAZARENVS?REX?IVD?ORVM

.

---

From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:25:08 +0000

On 13/07/10 20:16, James Wynn wrote:
>
> Incidentally, "finire" means "to end" and also "to limit". Terminus 
> Est also has these dual meanings, essentially.
>
Have to say the first time I came across the name of the Sword, the 
meaning I grokked immediately was 'It Is Finished'. Admit right now that 
other translations are more than likely more accurate representations of 
the Latin. I can't help it if they are all wrong anyway :) :)

JD

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:50:33 +0000

For what it's worth, I checked to see if "Terminus Est" was the Vulgate
translation of Christ's last words.

Of course it isn't, nor is it "finire est."  It's "consummatum est."

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>wrote:

> other translations are more than likely more accurate representations of the
> Latin. I can't help it if they are all wrong anyway :) :)
>
>
> JD
>
>
>
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:46:46 +0000

"It is fulfilled?"

"I want some soup?"

John Watkins wrote:
> For what it's worth, I checked to see if "Terminus Est" was the 
> Vulgate translation of Christ's last words.
>  
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com 
> <mailto:jane_delawney at sky.com>> wrote:
>
>         Incidentally, "finire" means "to end" and also "to limit".
>         Terminus Est also has these dual meanings, essentially.
>
>     Have to say the first time I came across the name of the Sword,
>     the meaning I grokked immediately was 'It Is Finished'. Admit
>     right now that other translations are more than likely more
>     accurate representations of the Latin. I can't help it if they are
>     all wrong anyway :) :)
>
>
>     JD
>
>
>
> Virus Database (VPS): 100728-1, 07/28/2010
> Tested on: 7/28/2010 9:51:28 PM

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:30:58 +0000

> "I want some soup?"

Hmm...No. "I am full. No thank you."

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:48:43 +0000

That's it!

James Wynn wrote:
> Virus Database (VPS): 100729-0, 07/29/2010
> Tested on: 7/29/2010 2:32:44 PM

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:54:02 +0000

> Hmm...No. "I am full. No thank you."

"This is the End" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the 
killing and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue 
rock and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:09:10 +0000

What serpent?

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> killing and the incest and the masked executioner with the special 
> blue rock and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?
>

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:17:27 +0000

"Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake, the ancient lake, baby
The snake is long, seven miles
Ride the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold"

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:09 PM, David Stockhoff
<dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>> killing and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue rock
>> and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?
>>

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:00:06 +0000

Don't forget the "Weird scenes inside the gold mine."

But there's no serpent in BotNS.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:10:02 +0000

> But there's no serpent in BotNS.

Hello? Abaia.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:12:40 +0000

Eel.

Close though.

Jeff Wilson wrote:
> Tested on: 7/29/2010 4:10:45 PM

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:13:04 +0000

>> But there's no serpent in BotNS.

Cold? Probably. Seven miles long? A good estimate.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:08:16 +0000

> Of course it isn't, nor is it "finire est."  It's "consummatum est."
Thanks for the response (I think); I don't remember mentioning the 
Vulgate in my post.

And it wouldn't be 'finire est' either would it? Finitus Est actually.

JD

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:29:46 +0000

On Jul 29, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

> "This is the End" - you know, like the Doors' song, the one with the killing and the incest and the masked executioner with the special blue rock and the ancient buildings and the lake and the giant serpent?

No, nothing AT ALL like that.

RIDE THE SNAKE,
Adam

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 06:26:22 +0000

> the Latin. I can't help it if they are all wrong anyway :) :)

What?

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 06:46:24 +0000

Morrison bought his Mother a front row center seat so he could perform
that song for her.

What a guy!

.

>>> rock