{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5654", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5654, "subject": "Monkey business", "messages": 25, "voices": 11, "first": "2010-07-09T04:07:58+00:00", "last": "2010-07-13T02:23:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<002a01cb1f1c$5485eec0$abce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-09T04:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\nbusiness.\n\nThat some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\nmonkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\nwill agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems to be at\nissue is what that something is.\n\nThere are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, including the\ndog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret. Inire,\nRudesind and Fechin are each likened (by Sev or report of another character)\nto a monkey, but in different ways.\n\nInire is rumored to look like a monkey and said to be the oldest man in the\nworld, so he must look like a very old man. He is said to be a little man,\nwith a wry neck and bow legs.\n\nRudesind has a wrinkled neck, long arms and legs, long feet, crooked fingers\nand moves up and down his ladder like an aged monkey. His height is\nundetermined, but when he led Sev to the Old Autarch in the House Absolute\n(in CLAW) he was leaning on Sev's arm and had to cock his head up to look\nSev in the face. That implies that he is not very tall. He has brown eyes\nthat are \"rheumy\" and the hairs on his face are white with age.\n\nFechin is said by the old man at Casdoe's cabin (hereafter I will call him\n\"Old Man\", since his name is not given**) to be tall and have red hair on\nhis hands and arms. His arms, but for their size, are said to have looked\nlike a monkey's. His face, however, was unlike a monkey's; it was handsome.\n\n(** That his name is not given may or may not be important.)\n\nOld Man and Rudesind both knew or met Fechin when they were boys, and the\nold men were thought by Sev to be about the same age. Each had their picture\ndrawn or painted by Fechin when they were boys.\n\nI don't think there is much to argue about in the above. Maybe having all\nthese basic facts in one place will suggest a theory other than Inire\nsomehow being some or all of these characters.\n\nIt should also be remembered that Sev's first manuscript was written ten\nyears after he became autarch, and that he had full access to the Old\nAutarch's memories. The significance of that is that he had decades of\nfamiliarity with Inire, which means most of the normal human lifespans of\nthe above men except, of course, Inire. If Rudesind, an acknowledged agent\nof the Old Autarch (and of Inire), had not aged like a normal human being\nduring the Old Autarch's tenure, then Sev should have and would have known\nit.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T04:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<002a01cb1f1c$5485eec0$abce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOkay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\nbusiness.\n\nThat some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\nmonkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\nwill agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems to be at\nissue is what that something is.\n\nThere are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, including the\ndog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "** Not very important, but I don't think a dog/ape hybrid is\nintended. \"Cynecephalus\" (dog-headed) is a term which seems to get applied\nto baboons - eg *Papio cynocephalus **\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Baboon*\n* *" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-09T04:35:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ook ook?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\nbusiness.\n\nThat some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\nmonkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\nwill agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems to be\nat\nissue is what that something is.\n\nThere are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, including the\ndog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "** Not very important, but I don't think a dog/ape hybrid is\nintended. \"Cynecephalus\" (dog-headed) is a term which seems to get applied\nto baboons - eg *Papio cynocephalus **\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Baboon*\n* *\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C36AF19.1010507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T05:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<002a01cb1f1c$5485eec0$abce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/8/2010 11:07 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n(** That his name is not given may or may not be important.)\n\nOld Man and Rudesind both knew or met Fechin when they were boys, and the\nold men were thought by Sev to be about the same age. Each had their picture\ndrawn or painted by Fechin when they were boys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev may be poor at judging the ages of the very old, given his \ninfrequent contact with them other than Master Malrubius. Casdoe's \nfather Old Man seems to have been close to Fechin's age (though not a \nclassmate, or he could have given him the paper much sooner), while \nRudesind was a boy of 13 or so when Fechin was already an established \nartist. But Rudesind was also a boy artist, so maybe Old Man is telling \na story about his boyhood friend _Rudesind_, but mis-calling him Fechin \ndue to old age, like he calls Severian \"Becan\".\n\nAnd like you said, Old Man is is not given a personal name, and the \nchildren duplicate the narrator's name, so *some* kind of onomastic \nslight of hand is at work there." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C36AF78.1050605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T05:11:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/8/2010 11:31 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Roy C. Lackey > wrote:\n\n Okay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\n business.\n\n That some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\n monkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\n will agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems\n to be at\n issue is what that something is.\n\n There are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, including the\n dog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret.\n\n** Not very important, but I don't think a dog/ape hybrid is intended.\n\"Cynecephalus\" (dog-headed) is a term which seems to get applied to\nbaboons - eg /Papio cynocephalus\n//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Baboon// /" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but the translator says that animal names are given by role rather \nthan by taxonomy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52360880-293A-4CBD-AE2E-EDF629823121@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T05:19:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<002a01cb1f1c$5485eec0$abce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adding some passages to this centralization of monkeydom...\n\nRUDESIND:\n\n\"When I admitted I did not, he scrambled down from the ladder like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins.\"\n\n\nTHE CYNOCEPHALUS:\n\n\"An ape with the head of a dog ran down the aisle, paused at my bed to look at me, then ran on. That seemed no stranger to me than the light that, passing through a window I could not see, fell upon my blanket.\"\n\nThis guy, but with a dog head:\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Dschelada_cynocephalus-gelada.png\n\n\nRED MONKEY:\n\n\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, save for his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, spied on me from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n\n\nFATHER INIRE:\n\n\"More fantastic still were the tales of his vizier, the famous Father Inire, who looked like a monkey and was the oldest man in the world.\"\n\n\nFECHIN:\n\n\"He was the worst of us all, that Fechin. A tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, on his arms. Like a monkey's arms, so that if you saw them reaching around the corner to take something, you'd think, except for the size, that it was a monkey taking it.\"\n\n\nSHAMAN IN JUNGLE (INIRE):\n\n\"The old man had a staff as crooked as himself, topped with the dried head of a monkey.\"\n\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 9, 2010, at 12:07 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOkay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\nbusiness.\n\nThat some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\nmonkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\nwill agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems to be at\nissue is what that something is.\n\nThere are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, including the\ndog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret. Inire,\nRudesind and Fechin are each likened (by Sev or report of another character)\nto a monkey, but in different ways.\n\nInire is rumored to look like a monkey and said to be the oldest man in the\nworld, so he must look like a very old man. He is said to be a little man,\nwith a wry neck and bow legs.\n\nRudesind has a wrinkled neck, long arms and legs, long feet, crooked fingers\nand moves up and down his ladder like an aged monkey. His height is\nundetermined, but when he led Sev to the Old Autarch in the House Absolute\n(in CLAW) he was leaning on Sev's arm and had to cock his head up to look\nSev in the face. That implies that he is not very tall. He has brown eyes\nthat are \"rheumy\" and the hairs on his face are white with age.\n\nFechin is said by the old man at Casdoe's cabin (hereafter I will call him\n\"Old Man\", since his name is not given**) to be tall and have red hair on\nhis hands and arms. His arms, but for their size, are said to have looked\nlike a monkey's. His face, however, was unlike a monkey's; it was handsome.\n\n(** That his name is not given may or may not be important.)\n\nOld Man and Rudesind both knew or met Fechin when they were boys, and the\nold men were thought by Sev to be about the same age. Each had their picture\ndrawn or painted by Fechin when they were boys.\n\nI don't think there is much to argue about in the above. Maybe having all\nthese basic facts in one place will suggest a theory other than Inire\nsomehow being some or all of these characters.\n\nIt should also be remembered that Sev's first manuscript was written ten\nyears after he became autarch, and that he had full access to the Old\nAutarch's memories. The significance of that is that he had decades of\nfamiliarity with Inire, which means most of the normal human lifespans of\nthe above men except, of course, Inire. If Rudesind, an acknowledged agent\nof the Old Autarch (and of Inire), had not aged like a normal human being\nduring the Old Autarch's tenure, then Sev should have and would have known\nit.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37351E.7030300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T14:41:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C36AF78.1050605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "** Not very important, but I don't think a dog/ape hybrid is intended.\n\"Cynecephalus\" (dog-headed) is a term which seems to get applied to\nbaboons - eg /Papio cynocephalus\n//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Baboon// /" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but the translator says that animal names are given by role \nrather than by taxonomy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are smilodons and giant sloths. I presume these are generally \nindistinguishable for the ancient extinct varieties. I really did assume \nwhen I first read this that we were talking about a mandrill or baboon.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T15:55:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C37351E.7030300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy I appreciate your efforts to ground all discussion in direct\nreferences from the text. I certainly welcome the generation of\na theory which explains all these monkey references better than \nmine, which struggles and strains to hold together.\n \nI must add that it isn't only the monkey aspect that I see as \nmarking the appearances of Father Inire, it is a constellation\nof traits. The best illustration of that is the old boatman. It is\nfrom him that we hear the confirming description that Inire is small\nand bent. But we are told, without acknowledgement by Severian, that\nthe boatman himself fits that very description. If we are looking for \na mysterious Inire and we find a guy who looks like him and spends \nlarge amounts of time in a place built by Inire and frequented by \nInire and his brethren, a red flag goes up for me. Severian is \nalways comparing things to other things and people to other people\nso I am suspicious when he doesn't make an obvious comparison like this.\n \nAnother suspicious scene occurs in regard to the old person in \nCasdoe's house. The red flag goes up for me because, over a long sequence \nof events, nobody (except Severian's narration) acknowledges this person.\nNobody says, \"hey Little Severian, tell grandpa its time to eat\" or \"hey,\ngrandpa, a monster just ate two of our family, we have to leave\". Only \nSeverian interacts with that old person.\n \nMy guess is that was done to avoid the use of any revealing pronouns. \nMy guess is that Severian has misjudged the gender of this person. I \nthink this person's description of Fechin is so adoring and admiring\nthat it must come from a woman, not a man. And thus perhaps we have\ntwo unreliable narrators. I suspect Fechin is not really tall nor \nhandsome but just perceived that way through loving eyes. I detect some\njealousy as the old person discusses how she(?) has to wait for Fechin\nwhile he has his liaison with a beautiful girl (Dorcas?). \nWait for her turn, I think.\n\nAll this is the sort of speculation piled upon speculation that Roy hopes\nto avoid. And I apologize. The only reason I indulge in it is because it\nprovides (for me) answers to one of the deepest mysteries of the story\nWho are Severian's family members?\n \nIf I am right about the boatman, then Inire is Severian's grandfather. If\nI am right about the old person in Casdoe's house then Little Severian is\nSeverian's cousin. If I am right about Rudesind, his dead wife and\ntwo daughters, then Dorcas is his grandmother, Catherine is his mother and\nCyriaca (who has a suspiciously knowledgeable \"uncle\") is his aunt. I see \nother clues which suggest Agia and Agilus are cousins and Jolenta is his \nsister. The source of all the incestuous desires in the family is from the\npatriarch, Father Inire, a benign but corrupting alien influence on humanity\n(and Severian's cursed family) which must be cleansed.\n \nNaturally there are text citations I can make to support each of the \npossibilities I suggest above. If somebody wants to hear them that's\nfine. Finding mistakes and inconsistencies is also welcome. Otherwise\nthat's my nutshell theory on Father Inire which, for the most part, works\nfor me.\n \n(I'll remention that I think the positive model for this ubiquitous, chimeric\nbeing is the non-fallen Tzadkiel, who can simultaneously be as big as an\nisland, small as tinkerbell, exist as a hairy blob, a caveman, an adonis and a\nfemale. How all this relates to Severian's mating with Apheta is an interesting \nquestion)\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<32E5717B-54D0-4BD7-980C-0EB0E5729CAB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T17:12:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 9, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnother suspicious scene occurs in regard to the old person in \nCasdoe's house. The red flag goes up for me because, over a long sequence \nof events, nobody (except Severian's narration) acknowledges this person.\nNobody says, \"hey Little Severian, tell grandpa its time to eat\" or \"hey,\ngrandpa, a monster just ate two of our family, we have to leave\". Only \nSeverian interacts with that old person.\n\nMy guess is that was done to avoid the use of any revealing pronouns. \nMy guess is that Severian has misjudged the gender of this person. I \nthink this person's description of Fechin is so adoring and admiring\nthat it must come from a woman, not a man. And thus perhaps we have\ntwo unreliable narrators." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C375DFE.5020805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T17:35:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<32E5717B-54D0-4BD7-980C-0EB0E5729CAB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nCould the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an aquastor. Why \nwould being an aquastor help things along?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T17:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C375DFE.5020805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, some further thoughts on monkeys and Inire- I agree\nthat \"dog-faced baboon\" is the likely reference for the\ncynocephalus. I think it might tie in with the Egyptian\ngod Thoth who had an ibis head while in heaven but a\nbaboon head while in the underworld. Snips from Wikipedia\nsay:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ancient Egyptians regarded Thoth as One, self-begotten,\nand self-produced. They credited him as the author of all works\nof science, religion, philosophy, and magic.The Greeks\nfurther declared him the inventor of astronomy, astrology,\nthe science of numbers, mathematics, geometry, land surveying,\nmedicine, botany, theology, civilized government, the alphabet,\nreading, writing, and oratory.Further, the Greeks related Thoth\nto their god Hermes due to his similar attributes and functions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Displaying his role as arbitrator, he had overseen the three\nepic battles between good and evil. All three battles are \nfundamentally the same and belong to different periods. The \nfirst battle took place between Ra and Apep, the second \nbetween Heru-Bekhutet and Set, and the third between Horus, \nthe son of Osiris, and Set. In each instance, the former god\nrepresented order while the latter represented chaos. If one\ngod was seriously injured, Thoth would heal them to prevent\neither from overtaking the other. Thoth was also prominent in\nthe Osiris myth, being of great aid to Isis. After Isis gathered\ntogether the pieces of Osiris' dismembered body, he gave her the\nwords to resurrect him so she could be impregnated and bring forth\nHorus. When Horus was slain, Thoth gave the magic to resurrect him\nas well" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the underworld, Duat, he appeared as a dog-faced baboon or an ape,\nA'an, the god of equilibrium, who reported when the scales weighing \nthe deceased's heart against a feather, was exactly even." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWith the arts and sciences, resurrections and advocacy for the dead\nreferences, I see possible whiffs of Father Inire, Severian and Rudesind. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37639D.40302@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T17:59:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C375DFE.5020805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an aquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3769E5.7060007@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:26:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C37639D.40302@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an aquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the \nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is \nSeverian's grandmother\". So this gives me a chance to show the value of \nwild speculation.\n\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your \nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing \nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him \nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor resolve the \nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\n\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man \nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then \nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old \nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an aquastor\".\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C377827.9040507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T19:27:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C3769E5.7060007@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an aquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the\nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not my fault if you can't read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So this gives me a chance to show the value of\nwild speculation.\n\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your\nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing\nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him\nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor resolve the\nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\n\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man\nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then\nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old\nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an\naquastor\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If X then X?\n\nWay to go about not saying anything." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3779EB.1070903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T19:35:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C377827.9040507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an \naquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nBait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the\nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's not my fault if you can't read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Read what? Still no citation? Tsk tsk.\nFive dodges now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nSo this gives me a chance to show the value of\nwild speculation.\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your\nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing\nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him\nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor resolve the\nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man\nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then\nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old\nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an\naquastor\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf X then X?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Irrelevant question in this case. No speculated advantage. See what I \ndid above? I used specific instances and showed how they were different. \nTry that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWay to go about not saying anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Self-congratulation is unseemly, Antonio.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3780A4.90501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:03:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C3779EB.1070903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an\naquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nBait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the\nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's not my fault if you can't read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Read what? Still no citation? Tsk tsk.\nFive dodges now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Citation of what, James? I've said which two things are wrong with your \nquestion and given a further explanation. Since your attention span seems \nnot be be having the best of days, I'll repeat them, which is something I abhor.\n\n1. Why your first question made no sense at all:\nOn 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?\n\n2. Once you had corrected it, the information you ask for is in the archives \nand I have better things to do than reenact the whole discussion:\nOn 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: That has been\ndiscussed to death.\n\n3. If you're really interested to know what's different instead of simply \ntrying to sound clever, you can start with this:\nOn 7/9/2010 5:56 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: One key difference is that \nDorcas being Severian's grandmother tells us\nsomething about a character we knew nothing about (Dorcas as Severian's\ngrandmother) and Severian's family tree, i.e. the level of data increases.\nWhereas Rudesind being Inire actually decreases the amount of data by\ndropping one character.\nAnd again, the identity of Dorcas is all but spelled out. When discussing \nwhether or not she was Severian's grandmother, it's more of a debate between \n'she obviously is' and 'it's so obvious maybe it's wrong'.\n\n\nIt would be quite nice if you'd keep track of what people say and didn't \nmangle the quotation system. It's not hard, you know. On the top of every \nquotation, there is a line saying who said what when. Then the text is \nindented by a greater-then sign. This can be nested. If people don't mess \nwith it, as you do by trimming, then it's easy to follow the conversation. \nPlus, if you actually take the time to read what the other person says, you \nwon't have to keep asking when did they say what.\n\nYou want me to replay the discussions from the archives? How stupid would I \nhave to be to do your bidding? You don't get any rhetorical edge by making \npreposterous challenges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nSo this gives me a chance to show the value of\nwild speculation.\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your\nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing\nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him\nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor resolve the\nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man\nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then\nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old\nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an\naquastor\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf X then X?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Irrelevant question in this case. No speculated advantage. See what I\ndid above? I used specific instances and showed how they were different.\nTry that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You showed no such thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWay to go about not saying anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Self-congratulation is unseemly, Antonio.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37900C.30707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:09:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C3780A4.90501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an\naquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nBait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the\nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's not my fault if you can't read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:35):\nRead what? Still no citation? Tsk tsk.\nFive dodges now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nCitation of what, James? I've said which two things are wrong with \nyour question and given a further explanation. Since your attention \nspan seems not be be having the best of days, I'll repeat them, which \nis something I abhor.\n\n1. Why your first question made no sense at all:\nOn 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. This does not explain why the first question made no sense or was \nbeside the point. It only shows that you preferred another term. You \ncould have opted to answer the question in those terms instead. You \nchose not to. Which is why I followed up your response by rephrasing the \nsame question.\nOnly a fool would think what you wrote here explains how the following \nis true:\n\n-----\"Is Dorcas Severian's grandmother\" = useful question\n------(i.e. advantageous speculation)\n\n-----\"Is Rudesind Inire in disguise?\" = pointless question\n------(i.e. unadvantageous speculation)\n\nIf you are saying \"Well, one is true and we don't know if the other is \ntrue\" then your logic is entirely circular. The purpose of speculation \nin this instance to attempt to ascertain whether something is true. I \nhate to use the word \"obvious\" but...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n2. Once you had corrected it, the information you ask for is in the \narchives and I have better things to do than reenact the whole \ndiscussion:\nOn 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: That has been\ndiscussed to death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that less than 1.5 hours had passed between your last post and this \none. Do you really think that merely declaring your preference for \n'speculative advantage' over 'narrative advantage' has Drained the Well \non this question? Really? Really???? I laughed when you posted this, but \nmy sense of humor is wearing thin.\n\nSecondly, all I've done here is rephrase the question in terms you say \nyou prefer. In this instance, I gave you another chance at showing how \nthe question of Sev's lineage is superior to questions of the identity \nof other characters. But you didn't take it. For some reason, you though \nyou had *proven* something at this point. I don't understand why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n3. If you're really interested to know what's different instead of \nsimply trying to sound clever, you can start with this:\nOn 7/9/2010 5:56 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: One key difference \nis that Dorcas being Severian's grandmother tells us\nsomething about a character we knew nothing about (Dorcas as Severian's\ngrandmother) and Severian's family tree, i.e. the level of data \nincreases.\nWhereas Rudesind being Inire actually decreases the amount of data by\ndropping one character." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So today, you attempt to prove you case. Sort of.\n\nFirst of all, you say \"one key difference\" which implies you have more \nto say. If true that would have justified the weakness of your argument \nhere. That is, I *would* have called it \"weak\" initially. Since this is \nthe extent of the \"speculative advantage\" that you see, it is absolutely \nlaughable. The understanding (if determined to be true) that a \nmaintenance man that Severian repeatedly encounters is actually an \nimportant character in the history of Urth whose actions take place \nmostly off-stage...you say all that does is \"decreases the amount of \ndata by dropping one character\". Am I supposed to take this seriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd again, the identity of Dorcas is all but spelled out. When \ndiscussing whether or not she was Severian's grandmother, it's more of \na debate between 'she obviously is' and 'it's so obvious maybe it's \nwrong'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh! So your logic IS circular. Here's another way of saying \"All but \nspelled out\": \"NOT spelled out\".\nIt's not as though you only need to read the end of Citadel to \nunderstand Severian's paternal lineage. It's more subtle than that. The \nsimian references are at least as spelled out, but their weight \ninexplicably passes right over your head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt would be quite nice if you'd keep track of what people say and \ndidn't mangle the quotation system. It's not hard, you know. On the \ntop of every quotation, there is a line saying who said what when. \nThen the text is indented by a greater-then sign. This can be nested. \nIf people don't mess with it, as you do by trimming, then it's easy to \nfollow the conversation. Plus, if you actually take the time to read \nwhat the other person says, you won't have to keep asking when did \nthey say what." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you have an instance in which I have misrepresented what you have \nsaid, say so. Otherwise, kiss off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nYou want me to replay the discussions from the archives? How stupid \nwould I have to be to do your bidding? You don't get any rhetorical \nedge by making preposterous challenges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nSo this gives me a chance to show the value of\nwild speculation.\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your\nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing\nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him\nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor \nresolve the\nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man\nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then\nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old\nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an\naquastor\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf X then X?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:35):\nIrrelevant question in this case. No speculated advantage. See what I\ndid above? I used specific instances and showed how they were different.\nTry that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nYou showed no such thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I understand. You're an idiot.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-07-09T23:13:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 9 Jul 2010, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nOh, some further thoughts on monkeys and Inire- I agree\nthat \"dog-faced baboon\" is the likely reference for the\ncynocephalus. I think it might tie in with the Egyptian\ngod Thoth who had an ibis head while in heaven but a\nbaboon head while in the underworld. Snips from Wikipedia\nsay:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[SNIP]\n\nOnly slightly off topic, I was pleased with my keen insight honed \nfrom reading Wolfe :), when I saw this driving the plot of Evelyn \nWaugh's _Decline and Fall_.\n\nA Google search has just pointed out to me that Waugh's birthday of \nOctober 28 is the start of the Isia (the holiday of Isis).\n\nActually, does anyone think Severian could be Pennyfeather? Sent down in \ndisgrace... The Autarch is then Margot Beste-Chetwynde, Philbrick is \nInire...\n\nCheers, David Duffy," } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T23:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C37900C.30707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This mutually masturbatory argument is fun and all, but I think perhaps\nprivate emails would be even more fun for those of us scrolling through this\nnonsense.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": " On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an\naquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nBait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the\nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's not my fault if you can't read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:35):\nRead what? Still no citation? Tsk tsk.\nFive dodges now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nCitation of what, James? I've said which two things are wrong with your\nquestion and given a further explanation. Since your attention span seems\nnot be be having the best of days, I'll repeat them, which is something I\nabhor.\n\n1. Why your first question made no sense at all:\nOn 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. This does not explain why the first question made no sense or was\nbeside the point. It only shows that you preferred another term. You could\nhave opted to answer the question in those terms instead. You chose not to.\nWhich is why I followed up your response by rephrasing the same question.\nOnly a fool would think what you wrote here explains how the following is\ntrue:\n\n-----\"Is Dorcas Severian's grandmother\" = useful question\n------(i.e. advantageous speculation)\n\n-----\"Is Rudesind Inire in disguise?\" = pointless question\n------(i.e. unadvantageous speculation)\n\nIf you are saying \"Well, one is true and we don't know if the other is\ntrue\" then your logic is entirely circular. The purpose of speculation in\nthis instance to attempt to ascertain whether something is true. I hate to\nuse the word \"obvious\" but....\n\n\n On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. Once you had corrected it, the information you ask for is in the\narchives and I have better things to do than reenact the whole discussion:\nOn 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: That has been\ndiscussed to death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note that less than 1.5 hours had passed between your last post and this\none. Do you really think that merely declaring your preference for\n'speculative advantage' over 'narrative advantage' has Drained the Well on\nthis question? Really? Really???? I laughed when you posted this, but my\nsense of humor is wearing thin.\n\nSecondly, all I've done here is rephrase the question in terms you say you\nprefer. In this instance, I gave you another chance at showing how the\nquestion of Sev's lineage is superior to questions of the identity of other\ncharacters. But you didn't take it. For some reason, you though you had\n*proven* something at this point. I don't understand why.\n\n\n On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. If you're really interested to know what's different instead of simply\ntrying to sound clever, you can start with this:\nOn 7/9/2010 5:56 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: One key difference is\nthat Dorcas being Severian's grandmother tells us\nsomething about a character we knew nothing about (Dorcas as Severian's\ngrandmother) and Severian's family tree, i.e. the level of data increases.\nWhereas Rudesind being Inire actually decreases the amount of data by\ndropping one character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So today, you attempt to prove you case. Sort of.\n\nFirst of all, you say \"one key difference\" which implies you have more to\nsay. If true that would have justified the weakness of your argument here.\nThat is, I *would* have called it \"weak\" initially. Since this is the extent\nof the \"speculative advantage\" that you see, it is absolutely laughable. The\nunderstanding (if determined to be true) that a maintenance man that\nSeverian repeatedly encounters is actually an important character in the\nhistory of Urth whose actions take place mostly off-stage...you say all that\ndoes is \"decreases the amount of data by dropping one character\". Am I\nsupposed to take this seriously?\n\n\n On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And again, the identity of Dorcas is all but spelled out. When discussing\nwhether or not she was Severian's grandmother, it's more of a debate between\n'she obviously is' and 'it's so obvious maybe it's wrong'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh! So your logic IS circular. Here's another way of saying \"All but\nspelled out\": \"NOT spelled out\".\nIt's not as though you only need to read the end of Citadel to understand\nSeverian's paternal lineage. It's more subtle than that. The simian\nreferences are at least as spelled out, but their weight inexplicably passes\nright over your head.\n\n\n On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be quite nice if you'd keep track of what people say and didn't\nmangle the quotation system. It's not hard, you know. On the top of every\nquotation, there is a line saying who said what when. Then the text is\nindented by a greater-then sign. This can be nested. If people don't mess\nwith it, as you do by trimming, then it's easy to follow the conversation.\nPlus, if you actually take the time to read what the other person says, you\nwon't have to keep asking when did they say what." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you have an instance in which I have misrepresented what you have said,\nsay so. Otherwise, kiss off.\n\n On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You want me to replay the discussions from the archives? How stupid would\nI have to be to do your bidding? You don't get any rhetorical edge by making\npreposterous challenges.\n\n James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So this gives me a chance to show the value of\nwild speculation.\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your\nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing\nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him\nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor resolve\nthe\nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man\nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then\nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old\nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an\naquastor\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf X then X?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:35):\nIrrelevant question in this case. No speculated advantage. See what I\ndid above? I used specific instances and showed how they were different.\nTry that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:03 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nYou showed no such thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now I understand. You're an idiot.\n\n\nu+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T01:26:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C3780A4.90501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The man argues like a protestant.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Could the elderly person in Casdoe's house be an aquastor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 18:35):\nSure. But anyone...probably any living thing...could be an\naquastor. Why\nwould being an aquastor help things along?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 7/9/2010 12:59 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHey!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nBait the hook, then reel them in. You still haven't delineated the\nrelevant differences between \"Inire is Rudesind\" and \"Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIt's not my fault if you can't read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Read what? Still no citation? Tsk tsk.\nFive dodges now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Citation of what, James? I've said which two things are wrong with your\nquestion and given a further explanation. Since your attention span seems\nnot be be having the best of days, I'll repeat them, which is something I\nabhor.\n\n1. Why your first question made no sense at all:\nOn 7/7/2010 4:18 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote: I'm not talking about\nnarrative advantage. I'm talking about speculative advantage. And as a\nside note I'm against the idea of narrative advantage. I don't see that\nreal life employs it, why should fiction?\n\n2. Once you had corrected it, the information you ask for is in the\narchives\nand I have better things to do than reenact the whole discussion:\nOn 7/7/2010 6:05 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote: That has been\ndiscussed to death.\n\n3. If you're really interested to know what's different instead of simply\ntrying to sound clever, you can start with this:\nOn 7/9/2010 5:56 AM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote: One key difference is\nthat\nDorcas being Severian's grandmother tells us\nsomething about a character we knew nothing about (Dorcas as Severian's\ngrandmother) and Severian's family tree, i.e. the level of data increases.\nWhereas Rudesind being Inire actually decreases the amount of data by\ndropping one character.\nAnd again, the identity of Dorcas is all but spelled out. When discussing\nwhether or not she was Severian's grandmother, it's more of a debate\nbetween\n'she obviously is' and 'it's so obvious maybe it's wrong'.\n\n\nIt would be quite nice if you'd keep track of what people say and didn't\nmangle the quotation system. It's not hard, you know. On the top of every\nquotation, there is a line saying who said what when. Then the text is\nindented by a greater-then sign. This can be nested. If people don't mess\nwith it, as you do by trimming, then it's easy to follow the conversation.\nPlus, if you actually take the time to read what the other person says,\nyou\nwon't have to keep asking when did they say what.\n\nYou want me to replay the discussions from the archives? How stupid would\nI\nhave to be to do your bidding? You don't get any rhetorical edge by making\npreposterous challenges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 19:26):\nSo this gives me a chance to show the value of\nwild speculation.\nThere's no reason to get Talmudic on the difference between your\nproposed standard and my question. I am only asking \"How does viewing\nthe old man as an aquastor resolve the apparent connection between him\nand Rudesind?\" Also, \"How does the old man being an aquastor resolve\nthe\nissue posed by Mr Berman that the old man might be female?\"\nWhat I am not asking is \"What difference would it make if the old man\nand Rudesind were connected?\" or \"If the old man is an aquastor, then\nwhat?\" Because in these instances the question is the answer: \"The old\nman and Rudesind might be connected\" and \"The old man might be an\naquastor\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf X then X?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Irrelevant question in this case. No speculated advantage. See what I\ndid above? I used specific instances and showed how they were different.\nTry that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You showed no such thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:27 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWay to go about not saying anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Self-congratulation is unseemly, Antonio.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BA55A.60807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-12T23:29:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<002a01cb1f1c$5485eec0$abce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree.\n\nOne comment though---I thought Rudesind was tall because of his long \nlimbs, but you're right---he's average to short. Severian is tall but \nnot that tall.\n\nHowever, those long limbs and short height do create a problem. He \ndoesn't sound human. How is it possible to have long arms/legs/feet and \nyet be short?\n\nShort torso? Slumped posture? Generally smaller size, like an actual \nmonkey? Is he a monkeyman, like the dogmen in the armored coach? Is that \nwhat the \"cover story\" Inire gave him refers to?\n\nI don't have a theory. I just don't get it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOkay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\nbusiness.\n\nThat some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\nmonkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\nwill agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems to be at\nissue is what that something is.\n\nThere are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, including the\ndog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret. Inire,\nRudesind and Fechin are each likened (by Sev or report of another character)\nto a monkey, but in different ways.\n\nInire is rumored to look like a monkey and said to be the oldest man in the\nworld, so he must look like a very old man. He is said to be a little man,\nwith a wry neck and bow legs.\n\nRudesind has a wrinkled neck, long arms and legs, long feet, crooked fingers\nand moves up and down his ladder like an aged monkey. His height is\nundetermined, but when he led Sev to the Old Autarch in the House Absolute\n(in CLAW) he was leaning on Sev's arm and had to cock his head up to look\nSev in the face. That implies that he is not very tall. He has brown eyes\nthat are \"rheumy\" and the hairs on his face are white with age.\n\nFechin is said by the old man at Casdoe's cabin (hereafter I will call him\n\"Old Man\", since his name is not given**) to be tall and have red hair on\nhis hands and arms. His arms, but for their size, are said to have looked\nlike a monkey's. His face, however, was unlike a monkey's; it was handsome.\n\n(** That his name is not given may or may not be important.)\n\nOld Man and Rudesind both knew or met Fechin when they were boys, and the\nold men were thought by Sev to be about the same age. Each had their picture\ndrawn or painted by Fechin when they were boys.\n\nI don't think there is much to argue about in the above. Maybe having all\nthese basic facts in one place will suggest a theory other than Inire\nsomehow being some or all of these characters.\n\nIt should also be remembered that Sev's first manuscript was written ten\nyears after he became autarch, and that he had full access to the Old\nAutarch's memories. The significance of that is that he had decades of\nfamiliarity with Inire, which means most of the normal human lifespans of\nthe above men except, of course, Inire. If Rudesind, an acknowledged agent\nof the Old Autarch (and of Inire), had not aged like a normal human being\nduring the Old Autarch's tenure, then Sev should have and would have known\nit.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BA5EF.6050701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-12T23:31:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C36AF78.1050605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn't seem to apply here. What function does a baboon have?\n\nI always assumed \"baboon\" was meant--- a baboon is a dogheaded ape and \nwas thought such by the Egyptians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/8/2010 11:31 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Roy C. Lackey > wrote:\n\n Okay, let's see if we can find some middle ground in all this monkey\n business.\n\n That some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, \nwith\n monkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost \neveryone\n will agree that the simian markers signify *something*. What seems\n to be at\n issue is what that something is.\n\n There are also some appearances of monkey-like creatures, \nincluding the\n dog-ape hybrid figure who looked in on Severian in the lazaret.\n\n** Not very important, but I don't think a dog/ape hybrid is intended.\n\"Cynecephalus\" (dog-headed) is a term which seems to get applied to\nbaboons - eg /Papio cynocephalus\n//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Baboon// /" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but the translator says that animal names are given by role \nrather than by taxonomy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BAAF2.5050305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-12T23:53:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could this fit a genetic program carried out by Inire? The problem there \nis that you consider Inire to be corrupting, but in that scenario he \nwould be purifying.\n\nOf course incest itself is seen in exactly those terms, which makes this \nlogical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nRoy I appreciate your efforts to ground all discussion in direct\nreferences from the text. I certainly welcome the generation of\na theory which explains all these monkey references better than \nmine, which struggles and strains to hold together.\n \nI must add that it isn't only the monkey aspect that I see as \nmarking the appearances of Father Inire, it is a constellation\nof traits. The best illustration of that is the old boatman. It is\nfrom him that we hear the confirming description that Inire is small\nand bent. But we are told, without acknowledgement by Severian, that\nthe boatman himself fits that very description. If we are looking for \na mysterious Inire and we find a guy who looks like him and spends \nlarge amounts of time in a place built by Inire and frequented by \nInire and his brethren, a red flag goes up for me. Severian is \nalways comparing things to other things and people to other people\nso I am suspicious when he doesn't make an obvious comparison like this.\n \nAnother suspicious scene occurs in regard to the old person in \nCasdoe's house. The red flag goes up for me because, over a long sequence \nof events, nobody (except Severian's narration) acknowledges this person.\nNobody says, \"hey Little Severian, tell grandpa its time to eat\" or \"hey,\ngrandpa, a monster just ate two of our family, we have to leave\". Only \nSeverian interacts with that old person.\n \nMy guess is that was done to avoid the use of any revealing pronouns. \nMy guess is that Severian has misjudged the gender of this person. I \nthink this person's description of Fechin is so adoring and admiring\nthat it must come from a woman, not a man. And thus perhaps we have\ntwo unreliable narrators. I suspect Fechin is not really tall nor \nhandsome but just perceived that way through loving eyes. I detect some\njealousy as the old person discusses how she(?) has to wait for Fechin\nwhile he has his liaison with a beautiful girl (Dorcas?). \nWait for her turn, I think.\n\nAll this is the sort of speculation piled upon speculation that Roy hopes\nto avoid. And I apologize. The only reason I indulge in it is because it\nprovides (for me) answers to one of the deepest mysteries of the story\nWho are Severian's family members?\n \nIf I am right about the boatman, then Inire is Severian's grandfather. If\nI am right about the old person in Casdoe's house then Little Severian is\nSeverian's cousin. If I am right about Rudesind, his dead wife and\ntwo daughters, then Dorcas is his grandmother, Catherine is his mother and\nCyriaca (who has a suspiciously knowledgeable \"uncle\") is his aunt. I see \nother clues which suggest Agia and Agilus are cousins and Jolenta is his \nsister. The source of all the incestuous desires in the family is from the\npatriarch, Father Inire, a benign but corrupting alien influence on humanity\n(and Severian's cursed family) which must be cleansed.\n \nNaturally there are text citations I can make to support each of the \npossibilities I suggest above. If somebody wants to hear them that's\nfine. Finding mistakes and inconsistencies is also welcome. Otherwise\nthat's my nutshell theory on Father Inire which, for the most part, works\nfor me.\n \n(I'll remention that I think the positive model for this ubiquitous, chimeric\nbeing is the non-fallen Tzadkiel, who can simultaneously be as big as an\nisland, small as tinkerbell, exist as a hairy blob, a caveman, an adonis and a\nfemale. How all this relates to Severian's mating with Apheta is an interesting \nquestion)\n \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BCC69.9070804@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T02:16:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C3BA55A.60807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/12/2010 6:29 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI agree.\n\nOne comment though---I thought Rudesind was tall because of his long\nlimbs, but you're right---he's average to short. Severian is tall but\nnot that tall.\n\nHowever, those long limbs and short height do create a problem. He\ndoesn't sound human. How is it possible to have long arms/legs/feet and\nyet be short?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When I admitted I did not, he scrambled down from the ladder like an \naged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands were \nas long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins.\"\n\nHe may simply have a short torso, by birth, osteoporosis, or both. I've \nseen such an older man around the town where I live who was barely five \nfeet tall but still able to ride an adult-sized tricycle. He would come \nin to pay on his account at the Sears where I worked years ago, and when \nhe waiting stationary in line I noticed his fingertips nearly reached \nhis knees, a common simian detail." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BCE23.1060904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T02:23:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Monkey business", "in_reply_to": "<4C3BCC69.9070804@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And could he climb ladders like a monkey? I suppose we'll never know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/12/2010 6:29 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree.\n\nOne comment though---I thought Rudesind was tall because of his long\nlimbs, but you're right---he's average to short. Severian is tall but\nnot that tall.\n\nHowever, those long limbs and short height do create a problem. He\ndoesn't sound human. How is it possible to have long arms/legs/feet and\nyet be short?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"When I admitted I did not, he scrambled down from the ladder like an \naged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; his hands \nwere as long as my feet, the crooked fingers laced with blue veins.\"\n\nHe may simply have a short torso, by birth, osteoporosis, or both. \nI've seen such an older man around the town where I live who was \nbarely five feet tall but still able to ride an adult-sized tricycle. \nHe would come in to pay on his account at the Sears where I worked \nyears ago, and when he waiting stationary in line I noticed his \nfingertips nearly reached his knees, a common simian detail." } ] } ] }