Urth Digest, Vol 71, Issue 87 The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 09 Jul 2010 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5655 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Tim O'Donnell — 09 Jul 2010, 08:25 After the incident with the man-apes Jonas tells Sev that mankind has changed over the course of many long years. Is it possible that those described as monkey like are people from our time (or the equivalent of our time)? This would explain a shared trait without requiring them all to be the same person. > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:43 AM, wrote: > Send Urth mailing list submissions to > urth at lists.urth.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > urth-request at lists.urth.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > urth-owner at lists.urth.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned > byRudesind (Jeff Wilson) > 2. Tzadkiel/Melek Taus (Mr Thalassocrat) > 3. Re: Tzadkiel/Melek Taus (John Watkins) > 4. Re: Tzadkiel/Melek Taus (Mr Thalassocrat) > 5. Re: The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned > byRudesind (Adam Thornton) > 6. Monkey business (Roy C. Lackey) > 7. Re: Monkey business (Mr Thalassocrat) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:50:27 -0500 (CDT) > From: "Jeff Wilson" > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Subject: Re: (urth) The mystery of the image of an astronaut cleaned > byRudesind > Message-ID: > <2aacbeb9c2e6573f0a1d94897f59491e.squirrel at webmail.prismnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > Well, yes indeed Judge Holden is reminiscent of Baldanders. > > > > But the creepier thing is that the Judge, well, he's not really a > > fictional > > character. Or if he is, he's Chamberlain's fictional character. The > > height, the albinism, the baldness, and the terrifying and lethal > > appetites > > towards children are all there in Chamberlain. > Albinism and baldness? Doesn't Baldanders have grey hair? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 10:05:10 +0930 > From: Mr Thalassocrat > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Finally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging me. > When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a no-good, > it put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in a > Patrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some middle-Eastern sect. > Tzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as peacock-ish. > > Anyway, here he is, the Peacock Angel of the Yazidis: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus The Peacock Angel of the > Yazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis ("the liar"), except for > the Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the favored status > of > Man. > > Wouldn't surprise me at all if Wolfe had this bird and the Yazidi's in > mind. > > > No, I don't think that BOTNS is intended as a Yazidi gospel :) > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100709/82b1503f/attachment-0001.htm > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:52:16 -0400 > From: John Watkins > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ooh, this is excellent stuff. Thank you for this. > > Someone like me (but smarter) should take this insight and run with it into > a full-on application of Melek Taus to other Wolfean demons. If Wolfe used > the figure once, did he use it again? If not, why not? > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote: > > Finally got around to tracking something down which had been nagging me. > > When I first came to the conclusion that Tzadkiel was a liar and a > > no-good, > > it put me vaguly in mind of a satanic peacock-angel that I'd read of (in > > a > > Patrick O'Brien novel?) in connection with some middle-Eastern sect. > > Tzadkiel's eye-wings always struck me as peacock-ish. > > > > Anyway, here he is, the Peacock Angel of the Yazidis: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus The Peacock Angel of the > > Yazidis. He has much the same story as Satan/Iblis ("the liar"), except > > for > > the Yazidis, it's a *good* thing that he didn't accept the favored status > > of > > Man. > > > > Wouldn't surprise me at all if Wolfe had this bird and the Yazidi's in > > mind. > > > > No, I don't think that BOTNS is intended as a Yazidi gospel :) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Urth Mailing List > > To post, write urth at urth.net > > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100708/bd5ab90a/attachment-0001.htm > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:54:49 +0930 > From: Mr Thalassocrat > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) Tzadkiel/Melek Taus > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:22 AM, John Watkins wrote: > > Ooh, this is excellent stuff. Thank you for this. > > > > Someone like me (but smarter) should take this insight and run with it > > into > > a full-on application of Melek Taus to other Wolfean demons. If Wolfe > > used > > the figure once, did he use it again? If not, why not? > This is the way I see it: In the BOTNS, Wolfe shows how a young man, by no > means inherently evil, is induced to do the will of (call it) Lucifer, > working on the young man's inclination to obey and disinclination to think > clearly when afflicted by religiosity, with these propensities assisted by > a > cloud of meretricious gnostic-ish mumbo-jumbo which takes the place of > "true > religion". The Lucifer figure is particularly evil in that he causes the > young man himself to be responsible for the mumbo-jumbo, unwittingly. > > Wolfe takes the reader on the same kind of journey as Sev. He sets up the > form of the story to make it look like a tale about enlightenment and the > progression of a soul from lowest to highest, and what BOTNS/UOTNS shows is > how powerful such forms are. By the the end of UOTNS there is overwhelming > evidence to make the enlightenment reading completely untenable on any > "objective" grounds, but nevertheless for most readers it persists. > "Tzadkiel" remains somehow the agent of some greater good, Sev has somehow > earned his role of minor god to the remnants of destroyed Urth humanity, a > grand (unknown) plan progresses to a sanctified (but unkown) end. > > On this view, BOTNS/UOTNS is a kind of demonstration of how people can > become "yazidis" (to the extent that the term can be used to denote those > who beleive bad is good - no offence to actual Yazidis!). > > Anyway, if Wolfe was thinking along those lines & did make use of aspects > of > the Melek Taus figure, I guess that use was pretty specific to the > concerns > of BOTNS/UOTNS. The closest figure I can think of in other works is The > Lowest God from W-K, but even though he may well be a de-winged angel, he > fits a different "error" (ie "lowest = highest", rather than "wrong > highest"). > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100709/65456cc3/attachment-0001.htm > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 22:15:21 -0500 > From: Adam Thornton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------