{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5656", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5656, "subject": "Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "messages": 23, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-07-09T18:33:35+00:00", "last": "2010-07-10T13:50:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:33:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (of the Dorcas-grandmother puzzle):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember when the grandmother theory was posed. There was no more\ntextual evidence for it than this Hairy Inire theory. The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This \"transparent\" puzzle was only understood some 20 years after the\nbook was published. I'm sure you would have been on the list explaining\nit a week after the SotT was published if you had had the opportunity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where are you getting this from? The Dorcas-is-Sev's-grandmother\npuzzle was understood by some of us as soon as we read Citadel of the\nAutarch back in the 1980s." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:35:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nWhere are you getting this from? The Dorcas-is-Sev's-grandmother\npuzzle was understood by some of us as soon as we read Citadel of the\nAutarch back in the 1980s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. In fact, I didn't even realize it was considered a \"puzzle.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C376EDA.2040408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T18:47:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where are you getting this from? The Dorcas-is-Sev's-grandmother\npuzzle was understood by some of us as soon as we read Citadel of the\nAutarch back in the 1980s.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep. In fact, I didn't even realize it was considered a \"puzzle.\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know how it could have passed your notice that this issue was \ndebated on this list in detail in the late 90s.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37739F.6050508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T19:08:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C376EDA.2040408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 1:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where are you getting this from? The Dorcas-is-Sev's-grandmother\npuzzle was understood by some of us as soon as we read Citadel of the\nAutarch back in the 1980s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yep. In fact, I didn't even realize it was considered a \"puzzle.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know how it could have passed your notice that this issue was \ndebated on this list in detail in the late 90s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think should elaborate on this. Sure there were people who read tBotNS \nand said \"Aha! Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\" That Number Five's \nname could be derived from the text was lore from at least the late 70s.\n\nOne day perhaps it will revealed in no uncertain terms that Tussah is a \nclone of Typhon and that the narrator of the Book of the Short Sun is \nNeighbor. But if that happens, I'm not going to say \"Ho ho! Why it was \n*obvious*! What's the mystery here? I was saying that from the \nbeginning!\" The issue is whether Dorcas as Sev's grandmother was \nexplained in terms that made it convincing to all.\n\nI think simian references to Inire and Rudesind are significant, but I \nnever paid them much mind before. Now they *do* appear obvious, don't they?\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C377B44.7050903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T19:40:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C37739F.6050508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 20:08):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure there were people who read tBotNS and said \"Aha! Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unlike the usual 'Wolfean mysteries', the indentity of Dorcas is hinted at \nusing the classic literary devices one finds everywhere. I think this is \nwhat makes it so obvious and not really a 'puzzle'. I also think it makes \nyour comparison misguided. Again, the debate with Dorcas isn't whether there \nis convincing evidence, it's more like whether the evidence isn't deceptive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think simian references to Inire and Rudesind are significant, but I\nnever paid them much mind before. Now they *do* appear obvious, don't they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see what you mean. There are several simian references throughout \nthe book. Lowering the bar for what constitutes a simian reference gets us \neven more. They do not apply only to Inire and Rudesind. They may tell us \nmore about Severian and his society than the people being described. And \nit's funny that the fauna is so different yet simians are supposed to be \njust like our own. But again - what do you mean when you say they're obvious?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C378011.7030002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:01:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C377B44.7050903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think simian references to Inire and Rudesind are significant, but I\nnever paid them much mind before. Now they *do* appear obvious, don't \nthey?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nBut again - what do you mean when you say they're obvious?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean that they they are *clearly*, almost to the point of \nself-evidence, intended by the author to signal something. Or as Roy put \nit today in the initial post of the \"Monkey Business\" thread:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That some characters in the Urth Cycle are compared, in some way, with\nmonkeys is beyond dispute. Since Wolfe wrote it, I think almost everyone\nwill agree that the simian markers signify *something*.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C378197.8040107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T20:07:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C378011.7030002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 21:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think simian references to Inire and Rudesind are significant, but I\nnever paid them much mind before. Now they *do* appear obvious, don't\nthey?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nBut again - what do you mean when you say they're obvious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean that they they are *clearly*, almost to the point of\nself-evidence, intended by the author to signal something. Or as Roy put\nit today in the initial post of the \"Monkey Business\" thread:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're saying that you didn't notice that they were there before? But \nyour wording suggested you were aware of them. If you were, what has \nchanged? I'm assuming it wasn't Ryan's mentioning them, since you say they \nare almost self-evident. What then?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C378F43.3070001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:06:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C378197.8040107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn said:\nI think simian references to Inire and Rudesind are significant, but I\nnever paid them much mind before. Now they *do* appear obvious, don't\nthey?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/9/2010 2:40 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nBut again - what do you mean when you say they're obvious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote (09-07-2010 21:01):\nI mean that they they are *clearly*, almost to the point of\nself-evidence, intended by the author to signal something. Or as Roy put\nit today in the initial post of the \"Monkey Business\" thread:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 3:07 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSo you're saying that you didn't notice that they were there before? \nBut your wording suggested you were aware of them. If you were, what \nhas changed? I'm assuming it wasn't Ryan's mentioning them, since you \nsay they are almost self-evident. What then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look. English is not your first language. I get that. But you are \nallowing your debility to make an ass of you.\nAlso, didn't you just chide me for trimming messages for emphasis? Why \ndid you drop the quotation from Roy that I offered to further illustrate \nwhat I was saying?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T21:53:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C378F43.3070001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe issue is whether Dorcas as Sev's grandmother was\nexplained in terms that made it convincing to all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the issue in this thread is whether it was explained in terms so\n*un*convincing that you were right to call it 'a half-baked theory' or\n'only understood 20 years after the book was published'.\n\nNeither of these things is true. As Dan'l says, it's debatable whether\nit should be classed as a puzzle at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C379FC6.7030907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T22:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe issue is whether Dorcas as Sev's grandmother was\nexplained in terms that made it convincing to all.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 4:53 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nNo, the issue in this thread is whether it was explained in terms so\n*un*convincing that you were right to call it 'a half-baked theory' or\n'only understood 20 years after the book was published'.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. You misread part of that. I did not call it a half-baked theory. I \nsaid this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of \nit. It's not an issue of it being in \"un\"convincing terms. Perhaps \n\"insufficiently convincing\" is accurate, because people can be very hard \nto convince. But in the late 90s, the explanation was carefully detailed \nin a way that many people began nodding their heads in agreement. Still, \nuntil someone posted that Wolfe had confirmed this (which I believe \nunfortunately occurred when the archives were broken), alternate \ntheories were regularly offered and debated on this list. Now it is \ngospel and the other constructs are beneath the waves as Nessus is \nbeneath the oceans of Ushas. It's as though they never happened.\n\nIf I've inadvertently dissed you, I apologize.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<015a01cb1fb8$feb04700$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-09T22:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C379FC6.7030907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of\nit. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is stated in the original LEXICON URTHUS, p-90, published in 1994, that\nDorcas is Severian's paternal grandmother.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<34BADACE-E61F-471E-839B-F16AF23780A6@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T23:34:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C379FC6.7030907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jul 9, 2010, at 6:16 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:\nThe issue is whether Dorcas as Sev's grandmother was\nexplained in terms that made it convincing to all.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/9/2010 4:53 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nNo, the issue in this thread is whether it was explained in terms so\n*un*convincing that you were right to call it 'a half-baked theory' or\n'only understood 20 years after the book was published'.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. You misread part of that. I did not call it a half-baked theory. I said this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The only reason\nit's not sitting on the \"Half-baked Theory\" pile today is because Wolfe\nuncharacteristically confirmed it to a questioner.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read BotNS twice through, and am on a third scouring, non-linear, clue hunting, note-taking. I came to the grandma Dorcas without much effort, which is saying alot if you've read my previous argument starters (aka mailing list threads).\n\nBut I think the point was, it wasn't explained in the late 90's, but rather in the mid-80's when the books were published, because the explanations are in the text, quite obviously in my opinion.\n\nDorcas and the boatman birthed 'You-Are-My-Mother-Come-Again' Ouen.\n\nOuen knocked up Catherine, who was handed to the torturers where she birthed Severian (plenty exposition going to great lengths to explain what happens when a woman gives birth while a client of the Matachin Tower.\n\nAnd finally, Severian clearly described as sharing Ouen's profile.\n\nDone and done, as far as I can deduce.\n\nNow, about those monkeys........\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-09T23:38:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<015a01cb1fb8$feb04700$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 9, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of\nit. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is stated in the original LEXICON URTHUS, p-90, published in 1994, that\nDorcas is Severian's paternal grandmother.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, and I always liked this quote from the book, guess who said it...\n\n\"Look at the great successes of the past - they say their deities are the masters of all the universes, and yet that they require grandmothers to defend them, as if they were children frightened by poultry.\"\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37B80D.8020504@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T00:00:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<015a01cb1fb8$feb04700$a2cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of\nit. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 5:49 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIt is stated in the original LEXICON URTHUS, p-90, published in 1994, that\nDorcas is Severian's paternal grandmother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an excellent example of what I'm talking about.\n\nIn the definition for Dorcas, Mantis places her status as Severian's \ngrandmother in the commentary...a location that, in the 1st edition, he \nseems to have favored for speculation and spoilers. Far less often for \nself-evident points of fact. And as Tony Ellis IIRC referenced, many \npeople viewed it as a feint. And why wouldn't they? Sev's opinion about \nOuen's and Catharine's connection is rather peculiar: \"A woman you loved \nor perhaps only one who loved you\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/9/2010 6:34 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI've read BotNS twice through, and am on a third scouring, non-linear, clue hunting, note-taking. I came to the grandma Dorcas without much effort, which is saying alot if you've read my previous argument starters (aka mailing list threads)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not going to disparage those who had alternate readings in this \ncase. Suffice that Wolfe has instilled extreme paranoia in his \nreadership and inclined them to straining at ants. I don't say he has no \none to blame but himself, but he bears a large culpability.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37BC34.2080705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T00:17:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C37B80D.8020504@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Look, when one becomes exasperated, that's the time to take the \nconversation off-list.\nI want to apologize to Antonio and to anyone who read my just previous \nresponses to him. I was out of line taking it here.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C37C800.1090604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T01:08:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C37BC34.2080705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (10-07-2010 01:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, when one becomes exasperated, that's the time to take the\nconversation off-list.\nI want to apologize to Antonio and to anyone who read my just previous\nresponses to him. I was out of line taking it here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa. I'd like to apologise to everyone as well, including James, for my \npart in it. I wasn't going to, but you were the better man in providing the \nopportunity. And I've appreciated reading the Map of the Whorl these last years." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T01:33:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C378F43.3070001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/9/2010 3:07 PM, Ant??nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you're saying that you didn't notice that they were there before?\nBut your wording suggested you were aware of them. If you were, what\nhas changed? I'm assuming it wasn't Ryan's mentioning them, since you\nsay they are almost self-evident. What then?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look. English is not your first language. I get that. But you are\nallowing your debility to make an ass of you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's the one who looks like an ass?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801cb1fe5$88fdd720$3dd34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-10T04:08:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an\n\tastronautcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOh, and I always liked this quote from the book, guess who said it...\n\n\"Look at the great successes of the past - they say their deities are the\nmasters of all the universes, and yet that they require grandmothers to\ndefend them, as if they were children frightened by poultry.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not going to step into that. Anyway, I think Thecla's next line was\nbetter, even if it more properly belongs in Andrew's thread.\n\n\"Or that the authority that punishes no one while there exists a chance for\nreformation will punish everyone when there is no possibility anyone will\nbecome the better for it.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6b2f3718a2acd6933fdf16c651da9016.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T04:18:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an\n astronautcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<002801cb1fe5$88fdd720$3dd34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thecla is an atheist.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, and I always liked this quote from the book, guess who said it...\n\n\"Look at the great successes of the past - they say their deities are\nthe\nmasters of all the universes, and yet that they require grandmothers to\ndefend them, as if they were children frightened by poultry.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not going to step into that. Anyway, I think Thecla's next line\nwas\nbetter, even if it more properly belongs in Andrew's thread.\n\n\"Or that the authority that punishes no one while there exists a chance\nfor\nreformation will punish everyone when there is no possibility anyone will\nbecome the better for it.\"\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3809A7.50608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T05:48:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C37C800.1090604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look, when one becomes exasperated, that's the time to take the\nconversation off-list.\nI want to apologize to Antonio and to anyone who read my just previous\nresponses to him. I was out of line taking it here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whoa. I'd like to apologise to everyone as well, including James, for \nmy part in it. I wasn't going to, but you were the better man in \nproviding the opportunity. And I've appreciated reading the Map of the \nWhorl these last years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And look! Now we're fine again. There's a lesson there about emotions. \nThey seem as big and imposing as a house and an offense against them is \na knife through your heart. Then you shrug your shoulders and a breeze \nblows them away. They are by definition irrational.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T06:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "<4C3809A7.50608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I ain't apologizing to anybody.\n\nI will point out, however, as I do occasionally, that I lie almost\nconstantly.\n\nVery little that I say is reliable.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Look, when one becomes exasperated, that's the time to take the\nconversation off-list.\nI want to apologize to Antonio and to anyone who read my just previous\nresponses to him. I was out of line taking it here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whoa. I'd like to apologise to everyone as well, including James, for\nmy part in it. I wasn't going to, but you were the better man in\nproviding the opportunity. And I've appreciated reading the Map of the\nWhorl these last years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And look! Now we're fine again. There's a lesson there about emotions.\nThey seem as big and imposing as a house and an offense against them is\na knife through your heart. Then you shrug your shoulders and a breeze\nblows them away. They are by definition irrational.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-07-10T13:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n\tcleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nIf it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of\nit. It's not an issue of it being in \"un\"convincing terms. Perhaps\n\"insufficiently convincing\" is accurate, because people can be very hard\nto convince. But in the late 90s, the explanation was carefully detailed\nin a way that many people began nodding their heads in agreement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I think I understand now. We are talking at cross-purposes. When\nyou talk about the Dorcas theory being 'explained' or 'understood'\nyou mean 'explained in circles of Wolfean criticism such as this\nlist', don't you? But I, and I think also Antonio, Dan'l, Ryan and\nRoy, are talking about how it is explained *in the text*. In the text,\nit is made transparently clear that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother,\nas several people have now come forward and demonstrated.\n\nThis is why I can't agree that 'if Wolfe hadn't confirmed the\ngrandmother theory, it would be on the Half-Baked Theory pile today'.\nPeople like us would never have allowed it to languish there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I've inadvertently dissed you, I apologize." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. I am entirely un-dissed, but thank you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C Lackey wrote:\nIt is stated in the original LEXICON URTHUS, p-90, published in 1994, that\nDorcas is Severian's paternal grandmother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If anyone has issue 164 of Vector, the critical journal of the BSFA,\nthey'll see that some tiresome guy called Anthony Ellis stated it back\nin October, 1991. :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ed43b5dd72bd487f8f7db70568d85f5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-10T13:50:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas (was: The mystery of the image of an astronaut\n cleaned by Rudesind)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my general criticism against the ouinusses and ouanquerres that\ninfest this list.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it was explained in terms at all before the late 90s, I'm unaware of\nit. It's not an issue of it being in \"un\"convincing terms. Perhaps\n\"insufficiently convincing\" is accurate, because people can be very hard\nto convince. But in the late 90s, the explanation was carefully detailed\nin a way that many people began nodding their heads in agreement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, I think I understand now. We are talking at cross-purposes. When\nyou talk about the Dorcas theory being 'explained' or 'understood'\nyou mean 'explained in circles of Wolfean criticism such as this\nlist', don't you? But I, and I think also Antonio, Dan'l, Ryan and\nRoy, are talking about how it is explained *in the text*. In the text,\nit is made transparently clear that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother,\nas several people have now come forward and demonstrated.\n\nThis is why I can't agree that 'if Wolfe hadn't confirmed the\ngrandmother theory, it would be on the Half-Baked Theory pile today'.\nPeople like us would never have allowed it to languish there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I've inadvertently dissed you, I apologize." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all. I am entirely un-dissed, but thank you.\n\n\nRoy C Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is stated in the original LEXICON URTHUS, p-90, published in 1994,\nthat\nDorcas is Severian's paternal grandmother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If anyone has issue 164 of Vector, the critical journal of the BSFA,\nthey'll see that some tiresome guy called Anthony Ellis stated it back\nin October, 1991. :-)\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }