{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5662", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5662, "subject": "UotNS and how it screws with your head", "messages": 53, "voices": 16, "first": "2010-07-13T15:05:20+00:00", "last": "2010-07-29T14:26:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T15:05:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first time I read this book, I was overawed by it, but found it\nconfusing to the point where I didn't like it much. Second time around, I\nfind I enjoy it more, but it is clear that it is not quite up to the\nstandards of the main series. But maddening.\n\nSo....for foreplay, Severian and Apheta talk about numinous matters, and she\nspends awhile talking about how time flows however they want it to in Yesod,\npast can become future, and the future ripples back to the past.\n\nAnd then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters call the \"warm\ncongress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod, or rather, it enclosed about\nme, yada yada, and then he describes his orgasm as this terribly serious\ncosmic event, and talks about something that is conceived from the union.\nThen he states that what was conceived was himself.\n\nNow as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear that Dorcas is\nhis grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I like the idea that his mother\nis Catherine, of whom a khaibits is slain every year at the Feast of Holy\nKatherine, there is something in my brain that really WANTS to take the easy\nway out here and say, right what was conceived was \"himself\" meaning the\nactual white fountain that will replenish the sun of Urth.\n\nBut part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian is his own\nfather." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C8E1B.7060501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:02:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reminds me: I need a white fountain to go with the white obelisk in \nmy front yard.\n\nThis is difficult to process, making as many problems as it solves. It \nmay mean that all of time originates in this self-(pro)creation, because \nsurely there can't be more than one such event or loop per universe.\n\nIt may conflict with the concept of the Increate as the only entity able \nto father himself. It may associate Severian with the Increate.\n\nIt may just be a hint that Severian fathered himself. But then did he do \nthis with Catherine or did he do this with Apheta? or both? Is one \nfathering physical and the other mystical? And what about incest as the \nway to bring in a new universe, per the principles of alchemy? Is there \na suggestion of masturbatory closed loops a la Fifth Head, or is a \nclosed loop a way forward?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cliff Judge wrote:\nThe first time I read this book, I was overawed by it, but found it \nconfusing to the point where I didn't like it much. Second time \naround, I find I enjoy it more, but it is clear that it is not quite \nup to the standards of the main series. But maddening.\n\nSo....for foreplay, Severian and Apheta talk about numinous matters, \nand she spends awhile talking about how time flows however they want \nit to in Yesod, past can become future, and the future ripples back to \nthe past.\n\nAnd then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters call the \n\"warm congress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod, or rather, it \nenclosed about me, yada yada, and then he describes his orgasm as this \nterribly serious cosmic event, and talks about something that is \nconceived from the union. Then he states that what was conceived was \nhimself.\n\nNow as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear that Dorcas \nis his grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I like the idea that \nhis mother is Catherine, of whom a khaibits is slain every year at the \nFeast of Holy Katherine, there is something in my brain that really \nWANTS to take the easy way out here and say, right what was conceived \nwas \"himself\" meaning the actual white fountain that will replenish \nthe sun of Urth.\n\nBut part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian is his \nown father.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:03:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was the white fountain too.\n\nOf course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which Mr. Thallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of a white hole comes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild solution for a black hole. Few nowadays think that white holes exist in nature - but if one does it should be associated with a black hole (though perhaps in a different universe).\n\nIt would also make sense in that the result of combining the two should be to negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an arbitrary black hole meets an arbitrary white hole.\n\nCould Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the Sun?\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n From: Cliff Judge \n\n And then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters call the \"warm congress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod, or rather, it enclosed about me, yada yada, and then he describes his orgasm as this terribly serious cosmic event, and talks about something that is conceived from the union. Then he states that what was conceived was himself.\n\n Now as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear that Dorcas is his grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I like the idea that his mother is Catherine, of whom a khaibits is slain every year at the Feast of Holy Katherine, there is something in my brain that really WANTS to take the easy way out here and say, right what was conceived was \"himself\" meaning the actual white fountain that will replenish the sun of Urth.\n\n But part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian is his own father." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Bitterman- Fenrir as father of \"Wolfe\"s is good enough for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cliff Judge- But part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian is his own\nfather." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian bears quite a resemblance to Number Five (as Phaedria quite resembles\nThecla). Number Five's real name is Gene Wolfe. Is it so far fetched that Inire is \nfather to another of these literary Gene Wolfe avatars? I always thought the \nmausoleum, with its five coffins, was a connector between these two stories.\n \nAnyway, how the heck are we supposed to draw sensible family trees if they involve\nclones and time travel and shape changing alien beings who can reproduce sexually and\nasexually?\n \nWith regard to Severian's father, we must ask about Ouen (though I am more interested\nin Ouen's small, bent father).\n \nI think of Theseus (though it could be various other Greek heroes) who was:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"son of Aethra, and fathered by Aegeus and Poseidon, both of whom Aethra lay with in one night.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe mechanics of that parentage are a bit mysterious...then again Christianity also relies\non a similar divine conception of a hero with a surrogate human father figure. (I mean hero\nin the Campbellian sense here).\n \nAlright I am done trying to make sense of this for now. I'll just concur with Cliff\nthat it screws with your head. As I expect it was intended. Some qustions we'll never get a \ndefinite answer to. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C9055.6060502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:12:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think it was the white fountain too.\n \nOf course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which Mr. \nThallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of a white \nhole comes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild solution for a \nblack hole. Few nowadays think that white holes exist in nature - but \nif one does it should be associated with a black hole (though \nperhaps in a different universe).\n \nIt would also make sense in that the result of combining the two \nshould be to negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an \narbitrary black hole meets an arbitrary white hole.\n \nCould Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the Sun?\n \n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n\n *From:* Cliff Judge \n\n And then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters call\n the \"warm congress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod, or rather,\n it enclosed about me, yada yada, and then he describes his orgasm\n as this terribly serious cosmic event, and talks about something\n that is conceived from the union. Then he states that what was\n conceived was himself.\n\n Now as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear that\n Dorcas is his grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I like the\n idea that his mother is Catherine, of whom a khaibits is slain\n every year at the Feast of Holy Katherine, there is something in\n my brain that really WANTS to take the easy way out here and say,\n right what was conceived was \"himself\" meaning the actual white\n fountain that will replenish the sun of Urth.\n\n But part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian is\n his own father.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n I think it was the white fountain too.\n\nOf course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which Mr.\nThallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of a white hole\ncomes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild solution for a black hole.\nFew nowadays think that white holes exist in nature - but if one does it\nshould be associated with a black hole (though perhaps in a different\nuniverse).\n\nIt would also make sense in that the result of combining the two should be\nto negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an arbitrary black hole\nmeets an arbitrary white hole.\n\nCould Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so...\n\nI think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white fountain in the lower\nuniverse (Abbadon?)\n\nIt would follow that the white fountain Severian creates exists as a black\nhole in Yesod or some higher plane. There may be an incredible number of\nlayers of universes...\n\nMetaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point about\ngrace. The layers of universe ultimately terminate at what Dante would have\ncalled the Empyrean, highest heaven, where infinite energy miraculously\nfonts from the Godhead. God, being the well that never goes dry, can give\nwithout taking, breaking the law of conversation of energy. This has a\nparallel with ethics--in love, humans partake in the divine essence, and so\nlove is giving without taking, et cetera.\n\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the white\nfountain and the black hole were one and the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n*From:* Cliff Judge \n\nAnd then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters call the \"warm\ncongress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod, or rather, it enclosed about\nme, yada yada, and then he describes his orgasm as this terribly serious\ncosmic event, and talks about something that is conceived from the union.\nThen he states that what was conceived was himself.\n\nNow as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear that Dorcas is\nhis grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I like the idea that his mother\nis Catherine, of whom a khaibits is slain every year at the Feast of Holy\nKatherine, there is something in my brain that really WANTS to take the easy\nway out here and say, right what was conceived was \"himself\" meaning the\nactual white fountain that will replenish the sun of Urth.\n\nBut part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian is his own\nfather.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C9385.9070502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:25:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That has been my assumption. It would mean that\n\n(1) first Urth had a yellow sun\n\n(2) then it drained itself into a lower universe\n\n(3) then a higher universe drained into it, there being a river of \navailable energy/love (with ultimately the Empyrean as source)\n\n(4) Urth had a yellow sun again but now it's called Ushas.\n\nWhich universe did the sun drain into? When? Why? Is there any reason to \nthink Severian did not open the drain thousands of years ago (as Apu \nPunchau? During a stopover in Typhon's time?) and plug it up again as \nthe Conciliator?\n\nYes, it would seem like an unnecessary step---but then God gave his only \nson to bridge a gulf he himself created in creating Adam, and he makes \nus suffer etc. Without this negation of an earlier act, there would be \nno Christian religion. There is also the Creation and the End of \ncreation---are those redundant acts?\n\nDo we have a better explanation for the black hole? I haven't seen one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n I think it was the white fountain too.\n \n Of course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which\n Mr. Thallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of\n a white hole comes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild\n solution for a black hole. Few nowadays think that white holes\n exist in nature - but if one does it should be associated with a\n black hole (though perhaps in a different universe).\n \n It would also make sense in that the result of combining the two\n should be to negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an\n arbitrary black hole meets an arbitrary white hole.\n \n Could Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the\n Sun?\n \n\n \nI don't think so...\n \nI think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white fountain in the \nlower universe (Abbadon?)\n \nIt would follow that the white fountain Severian creates exists as a \nblack hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There may be an incredible \nnumber of layers of universes...\n \nMetaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point \nabout grace. The layers of universe ultimately terminate at what \nDante would have called the Empyrean, highest heaven, where infinite \nenergy miraculously fonts from the Godhead. God, being the well that \nnever goes dry, can give without taking, breaking the law of \nconversation of energy. This has a parallel with ethics--in love, \nhumans partake in the divine essence, and so love is giving without \ntaking, et cetera.\n \nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the \nwhite fountain and the black hole were one and the same.\n \n\n \n - Gerry Quinn\n \n \n\n *From:* Cliff Judge \n\n And then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters\n call the \"warm congress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod,\n or rather, it enclosed about me, yada yada, and then he\n describes his orgasm as this terribly serious cosmic event,\n and talks about something that is conceived from the union.\n Then he states that what was conceived was himself.\n\n Now as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear\n that Dorcas is his grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I\n like the idea that his mother is Catherine, of whom a khaibits\n is slain every year at the Feast of Holy Katherine, there is\n something in my brain that really WANTS to take the easy way\n out here and say, right what was conceived was \"himself\"\n meaning the actual white fountain that will replenish the sun\n of Urth.\n\n But part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian\n is his own father.\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3C98FB.4030502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T16:48:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 11:12 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, how the heck are we supposed to draw sensible family trees if they involve\nclones and time travel and shape changing alien beings who can reproduce sexually and\nasexually? With regard to Severian's father, we must ask about Ouen (though I am more interested in Ouen's small, bent father).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hear! Hear! Don't forget aquastors. Additionally, it is important to \nnote (as I do fairly often) that Wolfe can be very free-wheeling when it \ncomes to familial titles and associations. Maitre is Number Five's \nfather. Silk is Tussah's \"son not of his body\". In _The Book of the \nShort Sun_ the Rajan various calls Jahlee his daughter and his sister. \nLater he warns his son against giving in to her wiles saying IIRC \"she \ncould be your sister or your aunt\".\n\nI think this deviousness is why people have doubted that Ouen was \nliterally Severian's father by seed and intercourse. Or that Dorcas was \nliterally Ouen's mother. Let's face it. That option is still open in the \nstory. Wolfe stretches the concept of identity to the breaking point. \nNumber Five and Maitre are essentially the same, or so we are told by \nDr. Marsch. Is a \"perfect copy\" something different from the original? \nThe point of _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ seems to be to cast doubt on \nthat. The point of Ossipago's lesson about aquastors seems to be that it \nis not. Wolfe doesn't see Pas as Typhon \"sort of\" being on the Whorl. To \nhim, Typhon IS on the Whorl by another name.\n\nIf there were a Silmarillion of the New Sun, I can guarantee there would \nbe a movie adaptation of Severian so fast.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C98FB.4030502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white fountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white fountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There may be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily influenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The Gods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it did win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n \nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher energy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and Apheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in Yesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a black hole that they\nwill need to repair? \n \nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a punishment. But could we \ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian travelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a nastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point about\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without taking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the white fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing, I have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff that most \nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark and pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is the shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow achieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n \nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to become more \npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually advanced than \nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul will have to pass \nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in the Wolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing, I have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff that most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark and pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is the shining,\nuncompromised “redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow achieve” Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this deeply misunderstands Wolfe and Christianity.\nChristianity is pretty much a \"dark and pessimistic\" religion when it\ncomes to the nature of this world. Christians believe that the\nUniverse is _broken_, beyond repair; God's only option for redemption\nis Apocalypse, end the whole thing and start again. The only optimism\ncomes in the belief that some of us will get to participate in the\nrebooted, unbroken Universe. C.S. Lewis put it very nicely:\nChristianity is an underground movement in an occupied territory.\n\nNor is redemption something we must \"achieve.\" It is given to us,\nundeservedly; that's what \"grace\" is all about." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:20:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nNice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily\ninfluenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The Gods\nThemselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it did\nwin the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n\nI assume so...for the record, it's my favorite Asimov book by a fair\nmargin. Second is The End of Eternity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you say, Severian's (and Apheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in\nYesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a black\nhole that they\nwill need to repair?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. Maybe they really have divine tech that allowed them to, er\ntap...that is, to ritualistically perform...yeah. There's not term for it\nthat won't lead to jokes. But conceivably (haha!) they circumvented\ncreating a black hole in Yesod by opening a direct pipeline to God. Or just\nto a higher universe, and created a black hole there and a fountian that\ngoes through Yesod to Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a punishment. But\ncould we\ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian\ntravelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a nastier\nversion of\nUrth in Abbadon?\n\nI think it's speculation either way, isn't it? If the black hole is a\nbiproduct of creating a white fountain, wouldn't the same apply in reverse,\nso that maybe the Hierogrammates or whoever created a white fountain in" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abbadon as a biproduct of punishing Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing, I\nhave serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark and\npessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe, like Tolkien, has a dark view of the world and of human\nnature. The light of God, as he writes of the Claw, is \"the only light we\nhave\"--the rest is darkness, Tolkien's \"long defeat.\" I think Wolfe would\nsay that the shining redemption is waiting in the next world if it's\nanywhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CA0F3.8010000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital \n(C)H(RIST), would agree with you.\n\nI disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, \"Catholicism is \nnot supposed to be easy.\" If you take it seriously, it acknowledges the \nmost horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect that.\n\nBotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could trace \nevery chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by one \nhuman being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJohn Watkins:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white fountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white fountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There may be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nNice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily influenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The Gods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it did win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n \nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher energy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and Apheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in Yesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a black hole that they\nwill need to repair? \n \nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a punishment. But could we \ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian travelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a nastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?\n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point about\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without taking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the white fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nWolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing, I have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff that most \nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark and pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is the shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow achieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n \nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to become more \npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually advanced than \nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul will have to pass \nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in the Wolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing. \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5CFEC2E4B40E419B90C847C4EC03B037@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C98FB.4030502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nIf there were a Silmarillion of the New Sun, I can guarantee there would \nbe a movie adaptation of Severian so fast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was thinking of this the other day. BotNS could be adapted for a movie \n(perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and spelled out \nmuch more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:28:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C9385.9070502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nDo we have a better explanation for the black hole? I haven't seen one.\n\nI've been assuming it has something to do with Typhon. I also have a wacky\nhypothesis that there are clues to how this may have occurred in other Wolfe\nbooks, but I really don't have an account for it at this point. So I guess\nI have to fall back on my point about theme, and saying that we're told,\nrepeatedly, that the white fountain comes from another universe, not from\nthe sun itself in the past, and that we never see Severian taking any action\nthat could account for the black hole being placed in the sun when he's\nrunning around in the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one thing I'll say for the alternate hypothesis is that the timelines do\nseem to match up. If the White Fountain enters the universe in Typhon's\ntime and is using the sun as its power source, it is an unusual\ncoincidence. However, the coincidence is necessary to put\nSeverian-as-Conciliator in Typhon's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n I think it was the white fountain too.\n Of course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which\n Mr. Thallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of\n a white hole comes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild\n solution for a black hole. Few nowadays think that white holes\n exist in nature - but if one does it should be associated with a\n black hole (though perhaps in a different universe).\n It would also make sense in that the result of combining the two\n should be to negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an\n arbitrary black hole meets an arbitrary white hole.\n Could Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the\n Sun?\n\n I don't think so...\n I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white fountain in the lower\nuniverse (Abbadon?)\n It would follow that the white fountain Severian creates exists as a\nblack hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There may be an incredible number\nof layers of universes...\n Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point\nabout grace. The layers of universe ultimately terminate at what Dante\nwould have called the Empyrean, highest heaven, where infinite energy\nmiraculously fonts from the Godhead. God, being the well that never goes\ndry, can give without taking, breaking the law of conversation of energy.\n This has a parallel with ethics--in love, humans partake in the divine\nessence, and so love is giving without taking, et cetera.\n These points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the white\nfountain and the black hole were one and the same.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n *From:* Cliff Judge \n\n\n And then they engage in what a couple of Wolfe's characters\n call the \"warm congress\" and Severian says, I entered Yesod,\n or rather, it enclosed about me, yada yada, and then he\n describes his orgasm as this terribly serious cosmic event,\n and talks about something that is conceived from the union.\n Then he states that what was conceived was himself.\n\n Now as a reader who has just decided that its pretty clear\n that Dorcas is his grandmother, Ouen is his father, and btw I\n like the idea that his mother is Catherine, of whom a khaibits\n is slain every year at the Feast of Holy Katherine, there is\n something in my brain that really WANTS to take the easy way\n out here and say, right what was conceived was \"himself\"\n meaning the actual white fountain that will replenish the sun\n of Urth.\n\n But part of me is also thinking....yeah there it is, Severian\n is his own father.\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CA293.4070401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:29:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<5CFEC2E4B40E419B90C847C4EC03B037@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only The Wizard of Oz.\n\nOh, wait ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If there were a Silmarillion of the New Sun, I can guarantee there \nwould be a movie adaptation of Severian so fast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was thinking of this the other day. BotNS could be adapted for a \nmovie (perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and \nspelled out much more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<5CFEC2E4B40E419B90C847C4EC03B037@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Work in progress: http://www.doctorisland.com/" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CA4A5.1040300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future Sun? \nThat's interesting---not what I thought at all. Sensible though.\n\nI assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a wedding \ncake, or like Able's world. Love flows from the top. Rotating spigots \nmoved by elves and fairies control the flow. Devils punch holes in the \nfrosting. What goes down does not come up, because the love is indeed \ninexhaustible.\n\nTyphon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the \nprogram of rehabilitation. But it's hard to see what Typhon did that \ncould be so horribly wrong, beyond indulging in his own creation (i.e., \nthe Whorl).\n\nIf a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add 1+ \n(-1) and get 0?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n\n Do we have a better explanation for the black hole? I haven't seen\n one.\n\nI've been assuming it has something to do with Typhon. I also have a \nwacky hypothesis that there are clues to how this may have occurred in \nother Wolfe books, but I really don't have an account for it at this \npoint. So I guess I have to fall back on my point about theme, and \nsaying that we're told, repeatedly, that the white fountain comes from \nanother universe, not from the sun itself in the past, and that we \nnever see Severian taking any action that could account for the black \nhole being placed in the sun when he's running around in the past.\n \nThe one thing I'll say for the alternate hypothesis is that the \ntimelines do seem to match up. If the White Fountain enters the \nuniverse in Typhon's time and is using the sun as its power source, it \nis an unusual coincidence. However, the coincidence is necessary to \nput Severian-as-Conciliator in Typhon's time.\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8B8A5618692E4D79A4B0396705E003C0@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-13T17:59:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3C9055.6060502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nWhen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may not be a very sensible question. White holes, effectively, travel \nbackwards in time; and this is supported in the text by the negentropic \neffects such as healing the sick and raising the dead which Severian effects \nby way of his association with the White Fountain.\n\nWe know that the black hole was created, or arrived, during the reign of \nTyphon. I am not certain that it makes sense to worry about when the white \nhole becomes physically present in our universe, or indeed how and even \nwhether it travelled to the Sun. About the only thing we know for certain \nis that gravitational radiation is emitted shortly before the final merging \nof the black and white holes; the ringing of the bells does suggest that the \ntwo entered an inwardly spiralling orbit.\n\nTime does not run in Yesod as it does in Briah... an event in Briah might \nhappen at any Urthly time coordinate, or perhaps at more than one.\n\nThere is also the issue of mass - surely the black and white holes have to \nbe the same size to cancel each other? i suppose it would work well enough \nif they were *approximately* the same mass, but still...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it was the white fountain too.\n Of course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which Mr. \nThallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of a white \nhole comes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild solution for a black \nhole. Few nowadays think that white holes exist in nature - but if one \ndoes it should be associated with a black hole (though perhaps in a \ndifferent universe).\n It would also make sense in that the result of combining the two should \nbe to negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an arbitrary black \nhole meets an arbitrary white hole.\n Could Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the Sun?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6F28257282C14DC78FA6BB776DAEC212@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:02:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe has suggested more than once that our lives are 'a Christmas \npresent'. Even if there's nothing else, it's all Good.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:\nWolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing, I \nhave serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff \nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark \nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is \nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow \nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this deeply misunderstands Wolfe and Christianity.\nChristianity is pretty much a \"dark and pessimistic\" religion when it\ncomes to the nature of this world. Christians believe that the\nUniverse is _broken_, beyond repair; God's only option for redemption\nis Apocalypse, end the whole thing and start again. The only optimism\ncomes in the belief that some of us will get to participate in the\nrebooted, unbroken Universe. C.S. Lewis put it very nicely:\nChristianity is an underground movement in an occupied territory.\n\nNor is redemption something we must \"achieve.\" It is given to us,\nundeservedly; that's what \"grace\" is all about." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<8B8A5618692E4D79A4B0396705E003C0@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWe know that the black hole was created, or arrived, during the reign of\nTyphon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; what we know is that its _effects_ were first noticed during his\nreign. That it was created or arrived at that time is a (debatable)\nconclusion. It can reasonably be argued that it would take at least\nthousands of years for its effects to be noticeable -- unless it was\nsuch a huge honkin' black hole that it would cause the Sun to collapse\ninto itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time does not run in Yesod as it does in Briah... an event in Briah might\nhappen at any Urthly time coordinate, or perhaps at more than one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or none. I think it's suggested strongly that the two time flows are\nunrelated, though I'd be hard pressed to find the citation right now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<67cd35e9ae603126797fcb8430a83c31.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:22:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have, maybe.\n\nSupposed to have? What views are Christians supposed to have?\n\nAs near as I can tell Gene is completely orthodox.\n\nThat he is devout cannot be doubted.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing,\nI have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is\nthe shining,\nuncompromised “redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve” Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this deeply misunderstands Wolfe and Christianity.\nChristianity is pretty much a \"dark and pessimistic\" religion when it\ncomes to the nature of this world. Christians believe that the\nUniverse is _broken_, beyond repair; God's only option for redemption\nis Apocalypse, end the whole thing and start again. The only optimism\ncomes in the belief that some of us will get to participate in the\nrebooted, unbroken Universe. C.S. Lewis put it very nicely:\nChristianity is an underground movement in an occupied territory.\n\nNor is redemption something we must \"achieve.\" It is given to us,\nundeservedly; that's what \"grace\" is all about.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5ba541058b93270cb0cefc866d41f368.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:24:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CA0F3.8010000@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The World is as it is.\n\nReligion - real religion - acknowledges this.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital\n(C)H(RIST), would agree with you.\n\nI disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, \"Catholicism is\nnot supposed to be easy.\" If you take it seriously, it acknowledges the\nmost horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect that.\n\nBotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could trace\nevery chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by one\nhuman being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white\nfountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white\nfountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There\nmay be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily\ninfluenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The\nGods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it\ndid win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n\nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher\nenergy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and\nApheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in\nYesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a black\nhole that they\nwill need to repair?\n\nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a punishment.\nBut could we\ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian\ntravelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a\nnastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point\nabout\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without\ntaking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the\nwhite fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing,\nI have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n\nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to\nbecome more\npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually\nadvanced than\nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul\nwill have to pass\nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in the\nWolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B234A57-25F2-4FB2-A77B-C578CE972146@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:24:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Doctor Island project seems to have been abandoned, forgotten, or to have fallen apart. It has been in the same stage of development for five years.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 13, 2010, at 1:31 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Work in progress: http://www.doctorisland.com/\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<86e044bd684090aa64454efd2f3ebf7e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:26:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<6F28257282C14DC78FA6BB776DAEC212@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That this is not obvious to everybody is remarkable.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Wolfe has suggested more than once that our lives are 'a Christmas\npresent'. Even if there's nothing else, it's all Good.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing,\nI\nhave serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this deeply misunderstands Wolfe and Christianity.\nChristianity is pretty much a \"dark and pessimistic\" religion when it\ncomes to the nature of this world. Christians believe that the\nUniverse is _broken_, beyond repair; God's only option for redemption\nis Apocalypse, end the whole thing and start again. The only optimism\ncomes in the belief that some of us will get to participate in the\nrebooted, unbroken Universe. C.S. Lewis put it very nicely:\nChristianity is an underground movement in an occupied territory.\n\nNor is redemption something we must \"achieve.\" It is given to us,\nundeservedly; that's what \"grace\" is all about.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CB010.5020400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:27:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<8B8A5618692E4D79A4B0396705E003C0@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I think that the Briahns can direct the flow of energy any \nway they want; this supports that notion.\n\nThe \"timing\" may be a false concern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That may not be a very sensible question. White holes, effectively, \ntravel backwards in time; and this is supported in the text by the \nnegentropic effects such as healing the sick and raising the dead \nwhich Severian effects by way of his association with the White Fountain.\n\nWe know that the black hole was created, or arrived, during the reign \nof Typhon. I am not certain that it makes sense to worry about when \nthe white hole becomes physically present in our universe, or indeed \nhow and even whether it travelled to the Sun. About the only thing we \nknow for certain is that gravitational radiation is emitted shortly \nbefore the final merging of the black and white holes; the ringing of \nthe bells does suggest that the two entered an inwardly spiralling orbit.\n\nTime does not run in Yesod as it does in Briah... an event in Briah \nmight happen at any Urthly time coordinate, or perhaps at more than one.\n\nThere is also the issue of mass - surely the black and white holes \nhave to be the same size to cancel each other? i suppose it would \nwork well enough if they were *approximately* the same mass, but still...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it was the white fountain too.\n Of course, there is another issue with the white fountain, which \nMr. Thallassocrat, at least, may find interesting. The concept of a \nwhite hole comes from the maximally extended Schwarzschild solution \nfor a black hole. Few nowadays think that white holes exist in \nnature - but if one does it should be associated with a black hole \n(though perhaps in a different universe).\n It would also make sense in that the result of combining the two \nshould be to negate both - this doesn't seem so probable if an \narbitrary black hole meets an arbitrary white hole.\n Could Severian, therefore, also have created the black hole in the \nSun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CB209.6010005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:35:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<5ba541058b93270cb0cefc866d41f368.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My father-in-law is a Protestant, of course. (broad wink)\n\nI'd turn him on to Wolfe but I fear the result. He might stop reading \naltogether." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe World is as it is.\n\nReligion - real religion - acknowledges this.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital\n(C)H(RIST), would agree with you.\n\nI disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, \"Catholicism is\nnot supposed to be easy.\" If you take it seriously, it acknowledges the\nmost horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect that.\n\nBotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could trace\nevery chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by one\nhuman being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John Watkins:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a white\nfountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white\nfountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There\nmay be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes...\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily\ninfluenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The\nGods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it\ndid win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n\nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher\nenergy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and\nApheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in\nYesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a black\nhole that they\nwill need to repair?\n\nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a punishment.\nBut could we\ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian\ntravelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a\nnastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point\nabout\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without\ntaking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the\nwhite fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his writing,\nI have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\" stuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a dark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work, is\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n\nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to\nbecome more\npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually\nadvanced than\nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul\nwill have to pass\nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in the\nWolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8e6e5be6758c36d41d434c54cf172454.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:36:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<3B234A57-25F2-4FB2-A77B-C578CE972146@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool nekkid pitchers.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Doctor Island project seems to have been abandoned, forgotten, or to\nhave fallen apart. It has been in the same stage of development for five\nyears.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 1:31 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Work in progress: http://www.doctorisland.com/\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:38:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CB209.6010005@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many protestants use their religion in ways not incompatible with reality.\n\nMany is perhaps a strong word, but they do exist.\n\nThat your father-in-law is one is not beyond the bounds of possibility.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My father-in-law is a Protestant, of course. (broad wink)\n\nI'd turn him on to Wolfe but I fear the result. He might stop reading\naltogether.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The World is as it is.\n\nReligion - real religion - acknowledges this.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital\n(C)H(RIST), would agree with you.\n\nI disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, \"Catholicism is\nnot supposed to be easy.\" If you take it seriously, it acknowledges the\nmost horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect\nthat.\n\nBotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could\ntrace\nevery chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by one\nhuman being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "John Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a\nwhite\nfountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white\nfountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There\nmay be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily\ninfluenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The\nGods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it\ndid win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n\nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher\nenergy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and\nApheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in\nYesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a\nblack\nhole that they\nwill need to repair?\n\nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a\npunishment.\nBut could we\ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian\ntravelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a\nnastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point\nabout\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without\ntaking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the\nwhite fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his\nwriting,\nI have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\"\nstuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a\ndark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work,\nis\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n\nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to\nbecome more\npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually\nadvanced than\nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul\nwill have to pass\nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in\nthe\nWolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CB2EE.2040400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly my feeling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nMany protestants use their religion in ways not incompatible with reality.\n\nMany is perhaps a strong word, but they do exist.\n\nThat your father-in-law is one is not beyond the bounds of possibility.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My father-in-law is a Protestant, of course. (broad wink)\n\nI'd turn him on to Wolfe but I fear the result. He might stop reading\naltogether.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The World is as it is.\n\nReligion - real religion - acknowledges this.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital\n(C)H(RIST), would agree with you.\n\nI disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, \"Catholicism is\nnot supposed to be easy.\" If you take it seriously, it acknowledges the\nmost horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect\nthat.\n\nBotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could\ntrace\nevery chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by one\nhuman being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "John Watkins:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a\nwhite\nfountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white\nfountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane. There\nmay be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes...\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily\ninfluenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The\nGods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it\ndid win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n\nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher\nenergy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and\nApheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in\nYesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a\nblack\nhole that they\nwill need to repair?\n\nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a\npunishment.\nBut could we\ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian\ntravelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a\nnastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point\nabout\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without\ntaking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the\nwhite fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his\nwriting,\nI have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\"\nstuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a\ndark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work,\nis\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n\nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to\nbecome more\npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually\nadvanced than\nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul\nwill have to pass\nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in\nthe\nWolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:53:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CB2EE.2040400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He'd probably react well to Wolfe.\n\nThinking Christians tend to so react.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's certainly my feeling.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Many protestants use their religion in ways not incompatible with\nreality.\n\nMany is perhaps a strong word, but they do exist.\n\nThat your father-in-law is one is not beyond the bounds of possibility.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My father-in-law is a Protestant, of course. (broad wink)\n\nI'd turn him on to Wolfe but I fear the result. He might stop reading\naltogether.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The World is as it is.\n\nReligion - real religion - acknowledges this.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital\n(C)H(RIST), would agree with you.\n\nI disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, \"Catholicism\nis\nnot supposed to be easy.\" If you take it seriously, it acknowledges\nthe\nmost horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect\nthat.\n\nBotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could\ntrace\nevery chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by\none\nhuman being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "John Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a\nwhite\nfountain\nin the lower universe (Abbadon?) It would follow that the white\nfountain Severian\ncreates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane.\nThere\nmay be an\nincredible number oflayers of universes..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction,\nheavily\ninfluenced\nby the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book,\nThe\nGods Themselves,\nby Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though\nit\ndid win the Hugo\nand Nebula. Surely Wolfe read it?\n\nIt paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from\nhigher\nenergy to lower\nwhich might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and\nApheta's?) creation\nwas a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created\nin\nYesod\n(no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a\nblack\nhole that they\nwill need to repair?\n\nWe have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a\npunishment.\nBut could we\ninfer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian\ntravelled to Briah\nto get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a\nnastier version of\nUrth in Abbadon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a\npoint\nabout\ngrace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without\ntaking... et cetera.\nThese points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the\nwhite fountain and\nthe black hole were one and the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his\nwriting,\nI have serious\ndoubts whether he has the same view of grace and the \"God Is Love\"\nstuff\nthat most\nChristians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a\ndark\nand pessimistic\nside which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his\nwork,\nis\nthe shining,\nuncompromised redemption we must (as christians) eventually,\nsomehow\nachieve? Is he\nsaving that for his last novel maybe?\n\nIn a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to\nbecome more\npositive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more\nspiritually\nadvanced than\nSeverian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a\nsoul\nwill have to pass\nthrough an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in\nthe\nWolfean cosmos.\nAnd that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from\nyour\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<668616.54586.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T18:54:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CA4A5.1040300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \n\nSo you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future Sun? That's \ninteresting---not what I thought\nat all. Sensible though.\n\nI assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a wedding cake, \nor like Able's world. Love flows >from the top. Rotating spigots moved by elves \nand fairies control the flow. Devils punch holes in the frosting. >What goes \ndown does not come up, because the love is indeed inexhaustible.\n\nTyphon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the program of \nrehabilitation. But it's hard to >see what Typhon did that could be so horribly \nwrong, beyond indulging in his own creation (i.e., the Whorl)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm enjoying this. I like the idea that Severian created both the Black Pit and \nthe White Fountain as the two ends of the same structure, with Murphy's Law \napplying to the timing.\n\nI'm also enjoying the other idea that the Black Pit drains energy to a lower \nuniverse and the White Fountain is a drain from the higher one. Is Severian's \nWhite Fountain causing global cooling in Yesod? Is the Black Pit being \nworshipped in Abaddon? Sunlight is better than justice, so black holes in suns \nare worse than injustice--sort of tough on the Yesodis, maybe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add 1+ (-1) and \nget 0?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And can he teach my students to?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:19:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CA4A5.1040300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSo you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future Sun?\nThat's interesting---not what I thought at all. Sensible though.\n\nI assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a wedding\ncake, or like Able's world. Love flows from the top. Rotating spigots moved\nby elves and fairies control the flow. Devils punch holes in the frosting.\nWhat goes down does not come up, because the love is indeed inexhaustible.\n\nTyphon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the program\nof rehabilitation. But it's hard to see what Typhon did that could be so\nhorribly wrong, beyond indulging in his own creation (i.e., the Whorl).\n\nIf a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add 1+ (-1)\nand get 0?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that in BotNS it is spelled out that the cosmology involves an\nexpansion / big crunch concept of the universe - I apologize for being bad\nwith quotes on this list but when Famulimus is explaining the sucession of\nraces that led to the creation of the Hierodules he states that the universe\nexpands, then collapses in on itself and expands again. In UotNS Severian\nrefers to each such cycle as a....manuvantara? An obviously Hindu word that\nI looked up and refers to one instance of creation by a Manu, which is in\nturn created by Brahma.\n\n(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with physicists\nthese days involve a constant expansion until entopy has reached max, but on\nthe other hand, some recent papers have thrown credibility towards the\nconcept that black holes in our universe connect to white holes in other\nuniverses, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for 1 here).\n\nThe voyage from Briah to Yesod in UotnS seems to take place in \"real\" time,\nas it would in a more simply-troped science fiction world, where there may\nbe FTL travel through hyperspace, different than time travel, different than\ntravel to \"other dimensions\" or \"alternate realities.\" In other words, a\ngateway to another universe was opened at 1200 hours in our universe and the\nship was through it by 1205 hours. But while adventuring on the ship,\nSeverian had two occasions to find himself floating in space perilously\nclose to being lost in the void. The first time he looks forward and sees\nthe end of the universe, aft and sees the beginning. The second time, he\nsees Briah compress into a ring which the ship passes through to wind up in\nYesod.\n\nSo it may be that Yesod is simply a future cycle of our universe...not a\nsidestep or trapdoor in spacetime but an advanced step in a series or\nsequence. Indeed, Apheta states that we of Briah can have a world like Yesod\nif we choose it.\n\nIn this way, perhaps the Increate exists at the end of time, the ultimate\ncycle. Energy to fuel the suns flows backward through time from Him.\n\nOr maybe not? The talk of \"higher\" and \"lower\" universes reminds me of\nsomething I noticed during the re-read of BotNS, which I mentioned here a\ncouple weeks ago...there is something Wolfe emplys a couple of times where\nSeverian confuses down with up. When the undine saves him from the neuphars\nas an apprentice....I believe he described it as being pushed up, then\npulled down, then waking up on the stone stairs. (The undine pulled him down\nand out from underneath the nenuphars, then pushed him up in reality.) When\nhe goes into the drink in the Garden of Sleep, a hand reaches up from the\nbottom and grasps his, and pulls him DOWN - then the next thing we know,\nDorcas has pulled him UP to the surface. Perhaps the most telling event was\nhis ride in the grav-led with Typhon, up to the gallery in the head. He\nfeels a terrifying plummet, and then comes out and asks Typhon \"how can we\nhave come up to such a height, when it felt as though we had fallen so far?\"\n\n\nWhat this might do to a theory of higher and lower universes, such as we\nhave in Wizard Knight, is place the Increate at the top - but you get to the\ntop by going DOWN. In this way, the energy that flows out of the suns and\ninto \"lower universes\" - the collected energy of ages of human existence,\nlife, work, joy, perhaps - flows TO the Increate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3CCDC3.8000700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's maddening, isn't it?\n\nIt makes sense that a scheme of universes proximate in space could also \nbe proximate in time, or could equally well be expressed as such, or \nonly when convenient. A system of flows (necessarily \"downward\" if \nyou're talking about flows) from the Increate could just as well flow \nfrom time to time, or TO the Increate.\n\nI think he's at both ends, because he's actually outside time and space. \nI think Able's world is especially well designed to confuse top and bottom.\n\nThe higher universes could easily be in the future.\n\nAs for the limits to universes, there is no difference between an edge \nand a beginning/ending, is there? And you could only see both end and \nbeginning, fore and aft, if the universe is very small or you are going \nvery fast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cliff Judge wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n So you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future\n Sun? That's interesting---not what I thought at all. Sensible though.\n\n I assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a\n wedding cake, or like Able's world. Love flows from the top.\n Rotating spigots moved by elves and fairies control the flow.\n Devils punch holes in the frosting. What goes down does not come\n up, because the love is indeed inexhaustible.\n\n Typhon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the\n program of rehabilitation. But it's hard to see what Typhon did\n that could be so horribly wrong, beyond indulging in his own\n creation (i.e., the Whorl).\n\n If a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add\n 1+ (-1) and get 0?\n\n\nRemember that in BotNS it is spelled out that the cosmology involves \nan expansion / big crunch concept of the universe - I apologize for \nbeing bad with quotes on this list but when Famulimus is explaining \nthe sucession of races that led to the creation of the Hierodules he \nstates that the universe expands, then collapses in on itself and \nexpands again. In UotNS Severian refers to each such cycle as \na....manuvantara? An obviously Hindu word that I looked up and refers \nto one instance of creation by a Manu, which is in turn created by \nBrahma.\n\n(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with \nphysicists these days involve a constant expansion until entopy has \nreached max, but on the other hand, some recent papers have thrown \ncredibility towards the concept that black holes in our universe \nconnect to white holes in other universes, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for \n1 here).\n\nThe voyage from Briah to Yesod in UotnS seems to take place in \"real\" \ntime, as it would in a more simply-troped science fiction world, where \nthere may be FTL travel through hyperspace, different than time \ntravel, different than travel to \"other dimensions\" or \"alternate \nrealities.\" In other words, a gateway to another universe was opened \nat 1200 hours in our universe and the ship was through it by 1205 \nhours. But while adventuring on the ship, Severian had two occasions \nto find himself floating in space perilously close to being lost in \nthe void. The first time he looks forward and sees the end of the \nuniverse, aft and sees the beginning. The second time, he sees Briah \ncompress into a ring which the ship passes through to wind up in Yesod.\n\nSo it may be that Yesod is simply a future cycle of our universe...not \na sidestep or trapdoor in spacetime but an advanced step in a series \nor sequence. Indeed, Apheta states that we of Briah can have a world \nlike Yesod if we choose it.\n\nIn this way, perhaps the Increate exists at the end of time, the \nultimate cycle. Energy to fuel the suns flows backward through time \nfrom Him.\n\nOr maybe not? The talk of \"higher\" and \"lower\" universes reminds me of \nsomething I noticed during the re-read of BotNS, which I mentioned \nhere a couple weeks ago...there is something Wolfe emplys a couple of \ntimes where Severian confuses down with up. When the undine saves him \nfrom the neuphars as an apprentice....I believe he described it as \nbeing pushed up, then pulled down, then waking up on the stone stairs. \n(The undine pulled him down and out from underneath the nenuphars, \nthen pushed him up in reality.) When he goes into the drink in the \nGarden of Sleep, a hand reaches up from the bottom and grasps his, and \npulls him DOWN - then the next thing we know, Dorcas has pulled him UP \nto the surface. Perhaps the most telling event was his ride in the \ngrav-led with Typhon, up to the gallery in the head. He feels a \nterrifying plummet, and then comes out and asks Typhon \"how can we \nhave come up to such a height, when it felt as though we had fallen so \nfar?\"\n\nWhat this might do to a theory of higher and lower universes, such as \nwe have in Wizard Knight, is place the Increate at the top - but you \nget to the top by going DOWN. In this way, the energy that flows out \nof the suns and into \"lower universes\" - the collected energy of ages \nof human existence, life, work, joy, perhaps - flows TO the Increate.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<405f260120b4c7ea03a34f5001a4ec43.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:39:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CCDC3.8000700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's pretty ordinary geometry.\n\nDifferent levels of the World have different geometry.\n\nThere are timelike and spacelike dimensions.\n\nWe use three spacelike and one timelike dimension.\n\nWe have no power of operation, normally, in the single timelike dimension:\neveryone is propelled forward willy nilly.\n\nThe next level up has four spacelike dimensions and two timelike\ndimensions within which at least some of the creatures on that level have\nat least some freedom of movement. One of these timelike dimensions is\nparallel with our single timelike dimension.\n\nThere is also on that level a seventh timelike dimension, within which the\nsix dimensinal space-time plenum is propelled forward, analogous to our\nsingle timelike dimension.\n\nThere are otber levels.\n\nNot too much is known about them beyond that they exist.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's maddening, isn't it?\n\nIt makes sense that a scheme of universes proximate in space could also\nbe proximate in time, or could equally well be expressed as such, or\nonly when convenient. A system of flows (necessarily \"downward\" if\nyou're talking about flows) from the Increate could just as well flow\nfrom time to time, or TO the Increate.\n\nI think he's at both ends, because he's actually outside time and space.\nI think Able's world is especially well designed to confuse top and\nbottom.\n\nThe higher universes could easily be in the future.\n\nAs for the limits to universes, there is no difference between an edge\nand a beginning/ending, is there? And you could only see both end and\nbeginning, fore and aft, if the universe is very small or you are going\nvery fast.\n\nCliff Judge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n So you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future\n Sun? That's interesting---not what I thought at all. Sensible\nthough.\n\n I assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a\n wedding cake, or like Able's world. Love flows from the top.\n Rotating spigots moved by elves and fairies control the flow.\n Devils punch holes in the frosting. What goes down does not come\n up, because the love is indeed inexhaustible.\n\n Typhon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the\n program of rehabilitation. But it's hard to see what Typhon did\n that could be so horribly wrong, beyond indulging in his own\n creation (i.e., the Whorl).\n\n If a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add\n 1+ (-1) and get 0?\n\n\nRemember that in BotNS it is spelled out that the cosmology involves\nan expansion / big crunch concept of the universe - I apologize for\nbeing bad with quotes on this list but when Famulimus is explaining\nthe sucession of races that led to the creation of the Hierodules he\nstates that the universe expands, then collapses in on itself and\nexpands again. In UotNS Severian refers to each such cycle as\na....manuvantara? An obviously Hindu word that I looked up and refers\nto one instance of creation by a Manu, which is in turn created by\nBrahma.\n\n(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with\nphysicists these days involve a constant expansion until entopy has\nreached max, but on the other hand, some recent papers have thrown\ncredibility towards the concept that black holes in our universe\nconnect to white holes in other universes, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for\n1 here).\n\nThe voyage from Briah to Yesod in UotnS seems to take place in \"real\"\ntime, as it would in a more simply-troped science fiction world, where\nthere may be FTL travel through hyperspace, different than time\ntravel, different than travel to \"other dimensions\" or \"alternate\nrealities.\" In other words, a gateway to another universe was opened\nat 1200 hours in our universe and the ship was through it by 1205\nhours. But while adventuring on the ship, Severian had two occasions\nto find himself floating in space perilously close to being lost in\nthe void. The first time he looks forward and sees the end of the\nuniverse, aft and sees the beginning. The second time, he sees Briah\ncompress into a ring which the ship passes through to wind up in Yesod.\n\nSo it may be that Yesod is simply a future cycle of our universe...not\na sidestep or trapdoor in spacetime but an advanced step in a series\nor sequence. Indeed, Apheta states that we of Briah can have a world\nlike Yesod if we choose it.\n\nIn this way, perhaps the Increate exists at the end of time, the\nultimate cycle. Energy to fuel the suns flows backward through time\nfrom Him.\n\nOr maybe not? The talk of \"higher\" and \"lower\" universes reminds me of\nsomething I noticed during the re-read of BotNS, which I mentioned\nhere a couple weeks ago...there is something Wolfe emplys a couple of\ntimes where Severian confuses down with up. When the undine saves him\nfrom the neuphars as an apprentice....I believe he described it as\nbeing pushed up, then pulled down, then waking up on the stone stairs.\n(The undine pulled him down and out from underneath the nenuphars,\nthen pushed him up in reality.) When he goes into the drink in the\nGarden of Sleep, a hand reaches up from the bottom and grasps his, and\npulls him DOWN - then the next thing we know, Dorcas has pulled him UP\nto the surface. Perhaps the most telling event was his ride in the\ngrav-led with Typhon, up to the gallery in the head. He feels a\nterrifying plummet, and then comes out and asks Typhon \"how can we\nhave come up to such a height, when it felt as though we had fallen so\nfar?\"\n\nWhat this might do to a theory of higher and lower universes, such as\nwe have in Wizard Knight, is place the Increate at the top - but you\nget to the top by going DOWN. In this way, the energy that flows out\nof the suns and into \"lower universes\" - the collected energy of ages\nof human existence, life, work, joy, perhaps - flows TO the Increate.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:40:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CCDC3.8000700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's something nicely alpha/omega-ish to the idea that the Increate is at\nboth top and bottom. Like the two statues that flank a major Buddhist temple\n- one them with its mouth open \"AAAAAUUUU\" and the other with its mouth\nclosed \"MMMMMM\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt's maddening, isn't it?\n\nIt makes sense that a scheme of universes proximate in space could also be\nproximate in time, or could equally well be expressed as such, or only when\nconvenient. A system of flows (necessarily \"downward\" if you're talking\nabout flows) from the Increate could just as well flow from time to time, or\nTO the Increate.\n\nI think he's at both ends, because he's actually outside time and space. I\nthink Able's world is especially well designed to confuse top and bottom.\n\nThe higher universes could easily be in the future.\n\nAs for the limits to universes, there is no difference between an edge and\na beginning/ending, is there? And you could only see both end and beginning,\nfore and aft, if the universe is very small or you are going very fast.\n\nCliff Judge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n So you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future\n Sun? That's interesting---not what I thought at all. Sensible though.\n\n I assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a\n wedding cake, or like Able's world. Love flows from the top.\n Rotating spigots moved by elves and fairies control the flow.\n Devils punch holes in the frosting. What goes down does not come\n up, because the love is indeed inexhaustible.\n\n Typhon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the\n program of rehabilitation. But it's hard to see what Typhon did\n that could be so horribly wrong, beyond indulging in his own\n creation (i.e., the Whorl).\n\n If a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add\n 1+ (-1) and get 0?\n\n\nRemember that in BotNS it is spelled out that the cosmology involves an\nexpansion / big crunch concept of the universe - I apologize for being bad\nwith quotes on this list but when Famulimus is explaining the sucession of\nraces that led to the creation of the Hierodules he states that the universe\nexpands, then collapses in on itself and expands again. In UotNS Severian\nrefers to each such cycle as a....manuvantara? An obviously Hindu word that\nI looked up and refers to one instance of creation by a Manu, which is in\nturn created by Brahma.\n\n(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with physicists\nthese days involve a constant expansion until entopy has reached max, but on\nthe other hand, some recent papers have thrown credibility towards the\nconcept that black holes in our universe connect to white holes in other\nuniverses, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for 1 here).\n\nThe voyage from Briah to Yesod in UotnS seems to take place in \"real\"\ntime, as it would in a more simply-troped science fiction world, where there\nmay be FTL travel through hyperspace, different than time travel, different\nthan travel to \"other dimensions\" or \"alternate realities.\" In other words,\na gateway to another universe was opened at 1200 hours in our universe and\nthe ship was through it by 1205 hours. But while adventuring on the ship,\nSeverian had two occasions to find himself floating in space perilously\nclose to being lost in the void. The first time he looks forward and sees\nthe end of the universe, aft and sees the beginning. The second time, he\nsees Briah compress into a ring which the ship passes through to wind up in\nYesod.\n\nSo it may be that Yesod is simply a future cycle of our universe...not a\nsidestep or trapdoor in spacetime but an advanced step in a series or\nsequence. Indeed, Apheta states that we of Briah can have a world like Yesod\nif we choose it.\n\nIn this way, perhaps the Increate exists at the end of time, the ultimate\ncycle. Energy to fuel the suns flows backward through time from Him.\n\nOr maybe not? The talk of \"higher\" and \"lower\" universes reminds me of\nsomething I noticed during the re-read of BotNS, which I mentioned here a\ncouple weeks ago...there is something Wolfe emplys a couple of times where\nSeverian confuses down with up. When the undine saves him from the neuphars\nas an apprentice....I believe he described it as being pushed up, then\npulled down, then waking up on the stone stairs. (The undine pulled him down\nand out from underneath the nenuphars, then pushed him up in reality.) When\nhe goes into the drink in the Garden of Sleep, a hand reaches up from the\nbottom and grasps his, and pulls him DOWN - then the next thing we know,\nDorcas has pulled him UP to the surface. Perhaps the most telling event was\nhis ride in the grav-led with Typhon, up to the gallery in the head. He\nfeels a terrifying plummet, and then comes out and asks Typhon \"how can we\nhave come up to such a height, when it felt as though we had fallen so far?\"\n\nWhat this might do to a theory of higher and lower universes, such as we\nhave in Wizard Knight, is place the Increate at the top - but you get to the\ntop by going DOWN. In this way, the energy that flows out of the suns and\ninto \"lower universes\" - the collected energy of ages of human existence,\nlife, work, joy, perhaps - flows TO the Increate.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3CCDC3.8000700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt's maddening, isn't it?\n\nIt makes sense that a scheme of universes proximate in space could also be\nproximate in time, or could equally well be expressed as such, or only when\nconvenient. A system of flows (necessarily \"downward\" if you're talking\nabout flows) from the Increate could just as well flow from time to time, or\nTO the Increate.\n\nI think he's at both ends, because he's actually outside time and space. I\nthink Able's world is especially well designed to confuse top and bottom." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of C.S. Lewis's words about Milton's (fictive?) cosmology.\nI slogged through Paradise Lost for the sake of saying I had, only really\nenjoying the fights, but Lewis fortunately provides this insight:\n\n\"[Milton] invented a most ingenious device for retaining the old glories of\nthe builded and finite universe yet also expressing the new consciousness of\nspace. He enclosed his cosmos in a spherical envelope within which all\ncould be light and order, and hung it from the floor of Heaven. Outside\nthat he had Chaos, the 'infinite abyss', the 'unessential Night', where\n'length, breath and highth/And time and place are lost'.\"\n\nNow imagine that, instead of Heaven, this sphere hangs from the floor of a\nlarger sphere, that hangs from the floor of a larger sphere yet...and\nimagine that each sphere is continually contracting and expanding, dying and\nbeing reborn. And some spheres have more than one sphere hanging off of\nthem.\n\nBut maybe there is a terminal sphere (or a set of terminal spheres) that\nreally does (do) hang from the floor of Heaven. Eventually." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The higher universes could easily be in the future.\n\nAs for the limits to universes, there is no difference between an edge and\na beginning/ending, is there? And you could only see both end and beginning,\nfore and aft, if the universe is very small or you are going very fast.\n\nCliff Judge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n So you're thinking power could be drained from past Sun to future\n Sun? That's interesting---not what I thought at all. Sensible though.\n\n I assume that all universes coexist, and they are layered like a\n wedding cake, or like Able's world. Love flows from the top.\n Rotating spigots moved by elves and fairies control the flow.\n Devils punch holes in the frosting. What goes down does not come\n up, because the love is indeed inexhaustible.\n\n Typhon preceded the Autarchs. Thus, he preceded FI, who began the\n program of rehabilitation. But it's hard to see what Typhon did\n that could be so horribly wrong, beyond indulging in his own\n creation (i.e., the Whorl).\n\n If a Conciliator bridges gulfs and closes gaps, could he also add\n 1+ (-1) and get 0?\n\n\nRemember that in BotNS it is spelled out that the cosmology involves an\nexpansion / big crunch concept of the universe - I apologize for being bad\nwith quotes on this list but when Famulimus is explaining the sucession of\nraces that led to the creation of the Hierodules he states that the universe\nexpands, then collapses in on itself and expands again. In UotNS Severian\nrefers to each such cycle as a....manuvantara? An obviously Hindu word that\nI looked up and refers to one instance of creation by a Manu, which is in\nturn created by Brahma.\n\n(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with physicists\nthese days involve a constant expansion until entopy has reached max, but on\nthe other hand, some recent papers have thrown credibility towards the\nconcept that black holes in our universe connect to white holes in other\nuniverses, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for 1 here).\n\nThe voyage from Briah to Yesod in UotnS seems to take place in \"real\"\ntime, as it would in a more simply-troped science fiction world, where there\nmay be FTL travel through hyperspace, different than time travel, different\nthan travel to \"other dimensions\" or \"alternate realities.\" In other words,\na gateway to another universe was opened at 1200 hours in our universe and\nthe ship was through it by 1205 hours. But while adventuring on the ship,\nSeverian had two occasions to find himself floating in space perilously\nclose to being lost in the void. The first time he looks forward and sees\nthe end of the universe, aft and sees the beginning. The second time, he\nsees Briah compress into a ring which the ship passes through to wind up in\nYesod.\n\nSo it may be that Yesod is simply a future cycle of our universe...not a\nsidestep or trapdoor in spacetime but an advanced step in a series or\nsequence. Indeed, Apheta states that we of Briah can have a world like Yesod\nif we choose it.\n\nIn this way, perhaps the Increate exists at the end of time, the ultimate\ncycle. Energy to fuel the suns flows backward through time from Him.\n\nOr maybe not? The talk of \"higher\" and \"lower\" universes reminds me of\nsomething I noticed during the re-read of BotNS, which I mentioned here a\ncouple weeks ago...there is something Wolfe emplys a couple of times where\nSeverian confuses down with up. When the undine saves him from the neuphars\nas an apprentice....I believe he described it as being pushed up, then\npulled down, then waking up on the stone stairs. (The undine pulled him down\nand out from underneath the nenuphars, then pushed him up in reality.) When\nhe goes into the drink in the Garden of Sleep, a hand reaches up from the\nbottom and grasps his, and pulls him DOWN - then the next thing we know,\nDorcas has pulled him UP to the surface. Perhaps the most telling event was\nhis ride in the grav-led with Typhon, up to the gallery in the head. He\nfeels a terrifying plummet, and then comes out and asks Typhon \"how can we\nhave come up to such a height, when it felt as though we had fallen so far?\"\n\nWhat this might do to a theory of higher and lower universes, such as we\nhave in Wizard Knight, is place the Increate at the top - but you get to the\ntop by going DOWN. In this way, the energy that flows out of the suns and\ninto \"lower universes\" - the collected energy of ages of human existence,\nlife, work, joy, perhaps - flows TO the Increate.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-14T18:25:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cliff thinks something funny is happening with up and down, and makes a good\ncase..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\n\nOr maybe not? The talk of \"higher\" and \"lower\" universes reminds me of\nsomething I noticed during the re-read of BotNS, which I mentioned here a\ncouple weeks ago...there is something Wolfe emplys a couple of times where\nSeverian confuses down with up. When the undine saves him from the neuphars\nas an apprentice....I believe he described it as being pushed up, then\npulled down, then waking up on the stone stairs. (The undine pulled him down\nand out from underneath the nenuphars, then pushed him up in reality.) When\nhe goes into the drink in the Garden of Sleep, a hand reaches up from the\nbottom and grasps his, and pulls him DOWN - then the next thing we know,\nDorcas has pulled him UP to the surface. Perhaps the most telling event was\nhis ride in the grav-led with Typhon, up to the gallery in the head. He\nfeels a terrifying plummet, and then comes out and asks Typhon \"how can we\nhave come up to such a height, when it felt as though we had fallen so far?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What this might do to a theory of higher and lower universes, such as we\nhave in Wizard Knight, is place the Increate at the top - but you get to the\ntop by going DOWN. In this way, the energy that flows out of the suns and\ninto \"lower universes\" - the collected energy of ages of human existence,\nlife, work, joy, perhaps - flows TO the Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This tickled my brain and I just realized why.\n\n\"Soon as he reach'd the point, whereat the thigh\nUpon the swelling of the haunches turns,\nMy leader there, with pain and struggling hard,\nTurn'd round his head where his feet stood before,\nAnd grappled at the fell as one who mounts;\nThat into hell methought we turn'd again.\n\n...\n\n...I raised mine eyes,\nBelieving that I Lucifer should see\nWhere he was lately left, but saw him now\nWith legs held upward. Let the grosser sort,\nWho see not what the point was I had past,\nBethink them if sore toil oppress'd me then.\"\n\nSo here in Canto 34 we have Lucifer located at the Earth's core, and the\nexpected reversal of gravity in his presence. This seems to be invoked by\nthe incident with Typhon, who is already doing a bit of a temptation in the\ndesert schtick,.\n\nAs for the other cases in which up becomes down and vice versal, I suppose\nthat's precisely what would happen when one passes through a horizontal\nlooking glass to another world, isn't it? Or the reflective surface of a\nstill body of water?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E6758.7050107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-15T01:41:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which Pirates of the Caribbean movie was that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nCliff thinks something funny is happening with up and down, and makes \na good case...\n\n \nSo here in Canto 34 we have Lucifer located at the Earth's core, and \nthe expected reversal of gravity in his presence. This seems to be \ninvoked by the incident with Typhon, who is already doing a bit of a \ntemptation in the desert schtick,.\n \nAs for the other cases in which up becomes down and vice versal, I \nsuppose that's precisely what would happen when one passes through a \nhorizontal looking glass to another world, isn't it? Or the \nreflective surface of a still body of water?\n \n\n\n _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, write urth at urth.net \n Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net \n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T02:05:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E6758.7050107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:41 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhich Pirates of the Caribbean movie was that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably the one Chris watches in Pirate Freedom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cliff thinks something funny is happening with up and down, and makes a\ngood case...\n\n So here in Canto 34 we have Lucifer located at the Earth's core, and the\nexpected reversal of gravity in his presence. This seems to be invoked by\nthe incident with Typhon, who is already doing a bit of a temptation in the\ndesert schtick,.\n As for the other cases in which up becomes down and vice versal, I\nsuppose that's precisely what would happen when one passes through a\nhorizontal looking glass to another world, isn't it? Or the reflective\nsurface of a still body of water?\n\n\n _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, write urth at urth.net \n Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net \n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E6EF2.7050708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-15T02:14:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oooh ...\n\nI think it was #3, but I saw it before #2 so it made no sense. Er, even \nless sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:41 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Which Pirates of the Caribbean movie was that?\n\n \nProbably the one Chris watches in Pirate Freedom.\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<06c76ca72df15d318584f84dc8575022.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-15T02:25:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E6EF2.7050708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The next pirates movie is somewhat based on Powers' On Stranger Tides.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "oooh ...\n\nI think it was #3, but I saw it before #2 so it made no sense. Er, even\nless sense.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:41 PM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n Which Pirates of the Caribbean movie was that?\n\n\nProbably the one Chris watches in Pirate Freedom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E8714.7090203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T03:57:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 3:19 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nRemember that in BotNS it is spelled out that the cosmology involves an\nexpansion / big crunch concept of the universe - I apologize for being\nbad with quotes on this list but when Famulimus is explaining the\nsucession of races that led to the creation of the Hierodules he states\nthat the universe expands, then collapses in on itself and expands\nagain. In UotNS Severian refers to each such cycle as a....manuvantara?\nAn obviously Hindu word that I looked up and refers to one instance of\ncreation by a Manu, which is in turn created by Brahma.\n\n(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with physicists\nthese days involve a constant expansion until entopy has reached max,\nbut on the other hand, some recent papers have thrown credibility\ntowards the concept that black holes in our universe connect to white\nholes in other universes, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for 1 here)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by recent. The black hole/white hole thing \nstill had some currency at the time of writing despite 1975's \n\"discovery\" and rapid acceptance of Hawking radiation allowing all of \nthe black hole's matter-energy to eventually leak back into the same \nuniverse (for excessively long values of eventually) but as of 2005, the \nbulk of physicists including Hawking have held that that the information \ncan return as well, though the only other black hole theorist of equal \nstature, Kip Thorne, remains unconvinced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The voyage from Briah to Yesod in UotnS seems to take place in \"real\"\ntime, as it would in a more simply-troped science fiction world, where\nthere may be FTL travel through hyperspace, different than time travel,\ndifferent than travel to \"other dimensions\" or \"alternate realities.\" In\nother words, a gateway to another universe was opened at 1200 hours in\nour universe and the ship was through it by 1205 hours. But while\nadventuring on the ship, Severian had two occasions to find himself\nfloating in space perilously close to being lost in the void. The first\ntime he looks forward and sees the end of the universe, aft and sees the\nbeginning. The second time, he sees Briah compress into a ring which the\nship passes through to wind up in Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even though Wolfe is using a lot of hokey superscience in the book, he's \nusing accurate relativistic imagery here in the ring. The blue- (rather \nthan red-) shifted creation seen to aft is the reversed, superscience \nversion as befits using mirrored sales to outrace light itself; the ship \ngoes back in time like Ms. Bright, all the way to creation and before. \nThis \"explains\" Yesod being the product of previous incarnations, and \nperhaps the original ms. he throws finding its way to our era." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3E8850.4040905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T04:02:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 3:44 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nThis reminds me of C.S. Lewis's words about Milton's (fictive?)\ncosmology. I slogged through Paradise Lost for the sake of saying I\nhad, only really enjoying the fights, but Lewis fortunately provides\nthis insight:\n\"[Milton] invented a most ingenious device for retaining the old glories\nof the builded and finite universe yet also expressing the new\nconsciousness of space. He enclosed his cosmos in a spherical envelope\nwithin which all could be light and order, and hung it from the floor of\nHeaven. Outside that he had Chaos, the 'infinite abyss', the\n'unessential Night', where 'length, breath and highth/And time and place\nare lost'.\"\nNow imagine that, instead of Heaven, this sphere hangs from the floor of\na larger sphere, that hangs from the floor of a larger sphere yet...and\nimagine that each sphere is continually contracting and expanding, dying\nand being reborn. And some spheres have more than one sphere hanging\noff of them.\nBut maybe there is a terminal sphere (or a set of terminal spheres) that\nreally does (do) hang from the floor of Heaven. Eventually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Continuing the visit to Cosmology Corner, the above imagery is actually \na fairly accurate description of physicist's Andrei Linde's form of \nlinked expansionary universes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<05feb7773cdad7e7f72794a12d084d2a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-15T04:04:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E8850.4040905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's identically similar to the nested Worlds in qabalah.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/13/2010 3:44 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This reminds me of C.S. Lewis's words about Milton's (fictive?)\ncosmology. I slogged through Paradise Lost for the sake of saying I\nhad, only really enjoying the fights, but Lewis fortunately provides\nthis insight:\n\"[Milton] invented a most ingenious device for retaining the old glories\nof the builded and finite universe yet also expressing the new\nconsciousness of space. He enclosed his cosmos in a spherical envelope\nwithin which all could be light and order, and hung it from the floor of\nHeaven. Outside that he had Chaos, the 'infinite abyss', the\n'unessential Night', where 'length, breath and highth/And time and place\nare lost'.\"\nNow imagine that, instead of Heaven, this sphere hangs from the floor of\na larger sphere, that hangs from the floor of a larger sphere yet...and\nimagine that each sphere is continually contracting and expanding, dying\nand being reborn. And some spheres have more than one sphere hanging\noff of them.\nBut maybe there is a terminal sphere (or a set of terminal spheres) that\nreally does (do) hang from the floor of Heaven. Eventually." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Continuing the visit to Cosmology Corner, the above imagery is actually\na fairly accurate description of physicist's Andrei Linde's form of\nlinked expansionary universes.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T17:43:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "<4C3E8714.7090203@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/13/2010 3:19 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(I understand that the cosmological models most popular with physicists\nthese days involve a constant expansion until entopy has reached max,\nbut on the other hand, some recent papers have thrown credibility\ntowards the concept that black holes in our universe connect to white\nholes in other universes, so Wolfe seems to be 1 for 1 here)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by recent. The black hole/white hole thing still\nhad some currency at the time of writing despite 1975's \"discovery\" and\nrapid acceptance of Hawking radiation allowing all of the black hole's\nmatter-energy to eventually leak back into the same universe (for\nexcessively long values of eventually) but as of 2005, the bulk of\nphysicists including Hawking have held that that the information can return\nas well, though the only other black hole theorist of equal stature, Kip\nThorne, remains unconvinced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what's this \"dark flow\" nonsense I have been hearing about in recent\nmonths?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T18:13:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what's this \"dark flow\" nonsense I have been hearing about in recent\nmonths?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dark flow refers to the non-random motion of galaxies and galactic\nclusters relative to the cosmic microwave radiation background. Old\nmodels predicted them to move randomly; new observations are dubbed\n\"dark flow\" because we cannot observe the impetus for motion. Just\nlike we can't observe the matter that makes up the majority of the\nmass of the universe, calling it \"dark matter.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3F5903.5050802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-15T18:52:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/15/2010 12:43 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nSo what's this \"dark flow\" nonsense I have been hearing about in recent\nmonths?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The indignant label given by painted figures to their disagreement with \nthe artist's semiotic choices, despite remaining on the firmament of his \neasel for the completion of their study." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C50CC11.7040103@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T00:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Not a film version but ... (was: Re: UotNS and how it screws\n with your head)", "in_reply_to": "<5CFEC2E4B40E419B90C847C4EC03B037@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/07/10 18:27, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nWas thinking of this the other day. BotNS could be adapted for a \nmovie (perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and \nspelled out much more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't know whether any have; but regarding BOTNS did you know that \nInnovation attempted to produce a *comics* series back in 1993? I think \nit was originally supposed to be a 12- issue limited series (that would \nhave covered vol. 1, Shadow, only, as far as I know).\n\nOnly 3 issues actually made it on to the newsstands. Although there was \nsome interesting artwork in there (The Matachin Dance made it on to the \npage pretty impressively) and the script was apparently approved by \nWolfe himself, the whole thing was so compressed as to be unsatisfying \nto the Wolfe/BOTNS fan, and consequently so dense that the average X-men \nfanboy would have found it incomprehensible and left it on the shelf.\n\nKudos to them for trying, though! Even in the world of comic-books that \ntook some hubris.\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T00:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Not a film version but ... (was: Re: UotNS and how it\n\tscrews with your head)", "in_reply_to": "<4C50CC11.7040103@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ever since I saw the Japanese book covers for BOTNS I've had in mind\nthat a really subtle anime studio could probably do the series\njustice. Damn near incomprehensible quasi-gnostic puzzles are the\nbread and butter of a lot of sci-fantasy anime.\n\nIf I win the lottery, I'll finance it.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 13/07/10 18:27, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was thinking of this the other day. “BotNS could be adapted for a movie\n(perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and spelled out\nmuch more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't know whether any have; but regarding BOTNS did you know that\nInnovation attempted to produce a *comics* series back in 1993? I think it\nwas originally supposed to be a 12- issue limited series (that would have\ncovered vol. 1, Shadow, only, as far as I know).\n\nOnly 3 issues actually made it on to the newsstands. Although there was some\ninteresting artwork in there (The Matachin Dance made it on to the page\npretty impressively) and the script was apparently approved by Wolfe\nhimself, the whole thing was so compressed as to be unsatisfying to the\nWolfe/BOTNS fan, and consequently so dense that the average X-men fanboy\nwould have found it incomprehensible and left it on the shelf.\n\nKudos to them for trying, though! Even in the world of comic-books that took\nsome hubris.\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T01:36:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Not a film version but ... (was: Re: UotNS and how it\n\tscrews with your head)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I used to think I'd like to see Book of the New Sun made into a movie.\nUnfortunately I doubt even the best filmmakers could make a successful\nversion of it. The intricacies of the story just seem to preclude the\npossibility of a faithful and watchable series of movies, even in anime\nformat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nEver since I saw the Japanese book covers for BOTNS I've had in mind\nthat a really subtle anime studio could probably do the series\njustice. Damn near incomprehensible quasi-gnostic puzzles are the\nbread and butter of a lot of sci-fantasy anime.\n\nIf I win the lottery, I'll finance it.\n\nLH\n\nOn Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jane Delawney \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 13/07/10 18:27, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Was thinking of this the other day. BotNS could be adapted for a movie\n(perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and spelled\nout\nmuch more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't know whether any have; but regarding BOTNS did you know that\nInnovation attempted to produce a *comics* series back in 1993? I think\nit\nwas originally supposed to be a 12- issue limited series (that would have\ncovered vol. 1, Shadow, only, as far as I know).\n\nOnly 3 issues actually made it on to the newsstands. Although there was\nsome\ninteresting artwork in there (The Matachin Dance made it on to the page\npretty impressively) and the script was apparently approved by Wolfe\nhimself, the whole thing was so compressed as to be unsatisfying to the\nWolfe/BOTNS fan, and consequently so dense that the average X-men fanboy\nwould have found it incomprehensible and left it on the shelf.\n\nKudos to them for trying, though! Even in the world of comic-books that\ntook\nsome hubris.\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4234255F18B74B698F26DBE9CB98D637@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-29T07:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Not a film version but ... (was: Re: UotNS and how it\n\tscrews with your head)", "in_reply_to": "<4C50CC11.7040103@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jane Delawney\" \nOn 13/07/10 18:27, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was thinking of this the other day. BotNS could be adapted for a movie \n(perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and spelled \nout much more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't know whether any have; but regarding BOTNS did you know that \nInnovation attempted to produce a *comics* series back in 1993? I think it \nwas originally supposed to be a 12- issue limited series (that would have \ncovered vol. 1, Shadow, only, as far as I know).\n\nOnly 3 issues actually made it on to the newsstands. Although there was \nsome interesting artwork in there (The Matachin Dance made it on to the \npage pretty impressively) and the script was apparently approved by Wolfe \nhimself, the whole thing was so compressed as to be unsatisfying to the \nWolfe/BOTNS fan, and consequently so dense that the average X-men fanboy \nwould have found it incomprehensible and left it on the shelf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I wonder if it might have worked better with lossier \ncompression.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T12:31:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Not a film version but ... (was: Re: UotNS and how it\n screws with your head)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personaly I never had problems with a movie (or trilogy or something) version of BotNS. Some people have expressed the idea that it is impossible to capture all the complexity of the books in movie format (and making it comercially successful doesn't help) and that so it would be better to not make it at all.\n\n \n\nI disagree. Even a \"lighter\" version of BotNS would have the disirable effect of probably capturing the interest of more people to the books and that for me is a positive thing. I don't think that a movie (or series of movies) needs obligatorily to capture all the intrincacies of Wolfe as if it was a reproduction of the Urth's Discussion List + \"academic\" treatises on Wolfe. Wolfe has a very good thing going for it which is that it can be read on many different levels. The first time I read the BotNS I was like 12 or 13 years old and I absolutely loved it while I certainly didn't even began to grasp the intrincacies of the books. That's the beauty of Wolfe. The books can be read at face value like any other \"fantasy\" books and it works. It would be extremely difficult to capture the \"second level\" reading nature of Wolfe in movie format and I honestly don't think it is needed to be a good desirable project. Plus, it's a beautiful story full of great imagery that would be a beautiful movie if done by the correct director/studio combination. That alone is already a good reason.\n\n \n\nBut that's just me.\n\n \n\n \n\nPedro\n\n \n\n \n\n\n\n\n\nDate: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:36:50 -0400\nFrom: miltonwjackson at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Not a film version but ... (was: Re: UotNS and how it screws with your head)\n\nI used to think I'd like to see Book of the New Sun made into a movie. Unfortunately I doubt even the best filmmakers could make a successful version of it. The intricacies of the story just seem to preclude the possibility of a faithful and watchable series of movies, even in anime format.\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\n\nEver since I saw the Japanese book covers for BOTNS I've had in mind\nthat a really subtle anime studio could probably do the series\njustice. Damn near incomprehensible quasi-gnostic puzzles are the\nbread and butter of a lot of sci-fantasy anime.\n\nIf I win the lottery, I'll finance it.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 13/07/10 18:27, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was thinking of this the other day. BotNS could be adapted for a movie\n(perhaps animated) but the story would have to be simplified and spelled out\nmuch more than in the book.\n\nHave any of Wolfe's works been made into screen versions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't know whether any have; but regarding BOTNS did you know that\nInnovation attempted to produce a *comics* series back in 1993? I think it\nwas originally supposed to be a 12- issue limited series (that would have\ncovered vol. 1, Shadow, only, as far as I know).\n\nOnly 3 issues actually made it on to the newsstands. Although there was some\ninteresting artwork in there (The Matachin Dance made it on to the page\npretty impressively) and the script was apparently approved by Wolfe\nhimself, the whole thing was so compressed as to be unsatisfying to the\nWolfe/BOTNS fan, and consequently so dense that the average X-men fanboy\nwould have found it incomprehensible and left it on the shelf.\n\nKudos to them for trying, though! Even in the world of comic-books that took\nsome hubris.\n\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C518FA9.6060907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T14:26:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Not a film version but ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote (29-07-2010 13:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(...) That's the beauty of Wolfe. The books can be read at face value\nlike any other \"fantasy\" books and it works. It would be extremely\ndifficult to capture the \"second level\" reading nature of Wolfe in movie\nformat and I honestly don't think it is needed to be a good desirable\nproject. (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't even know that it would be very difficult. Just put the thing into \nmoving pictures. Of course, a lot of detail would have to be left aside, but \nas long as a faithful rendering were done, afaic the books would be \n'captured' into the movie. Of course, to really understand it all, one would \nhave to go read the books and the kilometers of exegesis that have been \nwritten, but that's simply starting a step below the usual. If there is \nanything that I think could work on movies or comics that's Wolfe - simply \nbecause you *always* have a lot of investigation you can do.\n\nOf course, no 'creative' producers, please. Which probably means it can't be \ndone. Also the incest thing would have to be toned down if there were any \nhopes of actually screening it." } ] } ] }