{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5664", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5664, "subject": "Tzadkiel and Severian and the Holy Trinity", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-07-13T20:37:15+00:00", "last": "2010-08-01T06:23:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T20:37:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel and Severian and the Holy Trinity", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the ship\nitself and when the sailors refer to \"the Captain\" they mean the disembodied\nvoice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a conversation with\nat one point, I believe after he comes back from the dead when Sidero pulls\nhis unconscious body out and, as it is implied, bangs him on the noggin hard\nenough to kill him.\n\nI found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him if\nhe would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel \"Master.\"\n\nWe also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such ships as\nTzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible as it seems,\nthere is only one ship, and she may well be infinite. Presumably she would\nhave to be infinite inside (logically, eventually people would run into each\nother no matter how big the ship was otherwise, and there is also the\nstatement \"there were many more than seven holds.\")\n\nThinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could Tzadkiel be\na sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work here, Severian,\nZak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I confess to being an\nex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his Catechism to know what\nelse to look for to verify this. Or even who is who.\n\nI don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and the\nfirst-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian, saying how\n\"I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or something else?)\nbut he was cold and dead,\" to seem to blur the distinction between Severian\nand Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong link there, might just be my\nimagination.\n\nThen of course during the initial part of the judgment ceremony we have\nTzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the Father\n- Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a loop with a\nsliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role of Torturer with a\nlittle judo action, then suddenly takes his place.\n\nI'm going to digress for a moment because this isn't coming together as\ncoherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we do\nhave the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's divinity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<78797B7F-F72D-49E9-9656-2FEB0CEF8E24@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-13T21:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel and Severian and the Holy Trinity", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I can think of at least one other disembodied voices, in the Atrium of Time. Anywhere else?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 13, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\nWhere I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the ship itself and when the sailors refer to \"the Captain\" they mean the disembodied voice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a conversation with at one point, I believe after he comes back from the dead when Sidero pulls his unconscious body out and, as it is implied, bangs him on the noggin hard enough to kill him. \n\nI found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him if he would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel \"Master.\" \n\nWe also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such ships as Tzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible as it seems, there is only one ship, and she may well be infinite. Presumably she would have to be infinite inside (logically, eventually people would run into each other no matter how big the ship was otherwise, and there is also the statement \"there were many more than seven holds.\")\n\nThinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could Tzadkiel be a sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work here, Severian, Zak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I confess to being an ex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his Catechism to know what else to look for to verify this. Or even who is who.\n\nI don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and the first-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian, saying how \"I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or something else?) but he was cold and dead,\" to seem to blur the distinction between Severian and Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong link there, might just be my imagination.\n\nThen of course during the initial part of the judgment ceremony we have Tzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the Father - Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a loop with a sliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role of Torturer with a little judo action, then suddenly takes his place. \n\nI'm going to digress for a moment because this isn't coming together as coherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we do have the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's divinity. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C50C831.10500@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T00:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Disembodied voices (was: Re: Tzadkiel and Severian and the\n Holy Trinity)", "in_reply_to": "<78797B7F-F72D-49E9-9656-2FEB0CEF8E24@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/07/10 22:08, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nInteresting. I can think of at least one other disembodied voices, in the Atrium of Time. Anywhere else?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be the voice of the 'mouths' in the apex of the Matachin \nTower that speak to whoever is around and also to the 'mouths' in the \nother towers. Presumably some kind of automated communication mechanism \n- given the age of the ship/towers, it's quite possible that these \n'mouths' also speak to the Whorl and may be responsible for some of the \ngod-communications thereupon.\n\nI find it very interesting that of all the Guild, only Master Gurloes is \nnot frightened by these 'mouths' and perhaps actively seeks out their uh \n... company? Gurloes is a thwarted genius and a confirmed alcoholic, a \nvery unhappy man indeed from what Severian tells us; but he does seem to \nhave these strange insights (for instance: who exactly was it amongst \nthe insane 'clients' of the Third Level that he chose to speak to, and \nwhat did they speak about?).\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the ship itself and when the sailors refer to \"the Captain\" they mean the disembodied voice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a conversation with at one point, I believe after he comes back from the dead when Sidero pulls his unconscious body out and, as it is implied, bangs him on the noggin hard enough to kill him.\n\nI found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him if he would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel \"Master.\"\n\nWe also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such ships as Tzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible as it seems, there is only one ship, and she may well be infinite. Presumably she would have to be infinite inside (logically, eventually people would run into each other no matter how big the ship was otherwise, and there is also the statement \"there were many more than seven holds.\")\n\nThinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could Tzadkiel be a sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work here, Severian, Zak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I confess to being an ex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his Catechism to know what else to look for to verify this. Or even who is who.\n\nI don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and the first-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian, saying how \"I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or something else?) but he was cold and dead,\" to seem to blur the distinction between Severian and Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong link there, might just be my imagination.\n\nThen of course during the initial part of the judgment ceremony we have Tzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the Father - Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a loop with a sliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role of Torturer with a little judo action, then suddenly takes his place.\n\nI'm going to digress for a moment because this isn't coming together as coherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we do have the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's divinity.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f4c2c4e02348c25f7c17952e3264a56.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:23:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Disembodied voices (was: Re: Tzadkiel and Severian and\n the Holy Trinity)", "in_reply_to": "<4C50C831.10500@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\n\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/07/10 22:08, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting. I can think of at least one other disembodied voices, in\nthe Atrium of Time. Anywhere else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would be the voice of the 'mouths' in the apex of the Matachin\nTower that speak to whoever is around and also to the 'mouths' in the\nother towers. Presumably some kind of automated communication mechanism\n- given the age of the ship/towers, it's quite possible that these\n'mouths' also speak to the Whorl and may be responsible for some of the\ngod-communications thereupon.\n\nI find it very interesting that of all the Guild, only Master Gurloes is\nnot frightened by these 'mouths' and perhaps actively seeks out their uh\n... company? Gurloes is a thwarted genius and a confirmed alcoholic, a\nvery unhappy man indeed from what Severian tells us; but he does seem to\nhave these strange insights (for instance: who exactly was it amongst\nthe insane 'clients' of the Third Level that he chose to speak to, and\nwhat did they speak about?).\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...ryan\n\nOn Jul 13, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Cliff Judge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the\nship itself and when the sailors refer to \"the Captain\" they mean the\ndisembodied voice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a\nconversation with at one point, I believe after he comes back from the\ndead when Sidero pulls his unconscious body out and, as it is implied,\nbangs him on the noggin hard enough to kill him.\n\nI found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him\nif he would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel \"Master.\"\n\nWe also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such\nships as Tzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible\nas it seems, there is only one ship, and she may well be infinite.\nPresumably she would have to be infinite inside (logically, eventually\npeople would run into each other no matter how big the ship was\notherwise, and there is also the statement \"there were many more than\nseven holds.\")\n\nThinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could\nTzadkiel be a sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work\nhere, Severian, Zak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I\nconfess to being an ex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his\nCatechism to know what else to look for to verify this. Or even who is\nwho.\n\nI don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and\nthe first-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian,\nsaying how \"I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or\nsomething else?) but he was cold and dead,\" to seem to blur the\ndistinction between Severian and Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong\nlink there, might just be my imagination.\n\nThen of course during the initial part of the judgment ceremony we have\nTzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the\nFather - Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a\nloop with a sliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role\nof Torturer with a little judo action, then suddenly takes his place.\n\nI'm going to digress for a moment because this isn't coming together as\ncoherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we\ndo have the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's\ndivinity.\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }