Subject: (urth) Tzadkiel and Severian and the Holy Trinity

From: Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:37:15 +0000

Where I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the ship
itself and when the sailors refer to "the Captain" they mean the disembodied
voice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a conversation with
at one point, I believe after he comes back from the dead when Sidero pulls
his unconscious body out and, as it is implied, bangs him on the noggin hard
enough to kill him.

I found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him if
he would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel "Master."

We also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such ships as
Tzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible as it seems,
there is only one ship, and she may well be infinite. Presumably she would
have to be infinite inside (logically, eventually people would run into each
other no matter how big the ship was otherwise, and there is also the
statement "there were many more than seven holds.")

Thinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could Tzadkiel be
a sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work here, Severian,
Zak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I confess to being an
ex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his Catechism to know what
else to look for to verify this. Or even who is who.

I don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and the
first-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian, saying how
"I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or something else?)
but he was cold and dead," to seem to blur the distinction between Severian
and Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong link there, might just be my
imagination.

Then of course during the initial part of the judgment ceremony we have
Tzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the Father
- Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a loop with a
sliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role of Torturer with a
little judo action, then suddenly takes his place.

I'm going to digress for a moment because this isn't coming together as
coherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we do
have the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's divinity.
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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:08:45 +0000

Interesting. I can think of at least one other disembodied voices, in the Atrium of Time. Anywhere else?

...ryan

On Jul 13, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Cliff Judge <transentient at gmail.com> wrote:

> Where I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the ship itself and when the sailors refer to "the Captain" they mean the disembodied voice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a conversation with at one point, I believe after he comes back from the dead when Sidero pulls his unconscious body out and, as it is implied, bangs him on the noggin hard enough to kill him. 
> 
> I found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him if he would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel "Master." 
> 
> We also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such ships as Tzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible as it seems, there is only one ship, and she may well be infinite. Presumably she would have to be infinite inside (logically, eventually people would run into each other no matter how big the ship was otherwise, and there is also the statement "there were many more than seven holds.")
> 
> Thinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could Tzadkiel be a sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work here, Severian, Zak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I confess to being an ex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his Catechism to know what else to look for to verify this. Or even who is who.
> 
> I don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and the first-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian, saying how "I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or something else?) but he was cold and dead," to seem to blur the distinction between Severian and Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong link there, might just be my imagination.
> 
> Then of course during the initial part of the judgment ceremony we have Tzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the Father - Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a loop with a sliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role of Torturer with a little judo action, then suddenly takes his place. 
> 
> I'm going to digress for a moment because this isn't coming together as coherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we do have the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's divinity. 
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From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:15:45 +0000

> Interesting. I can think of at least one other disembodied voices, in the Atrium of Time. Anywhere else?
That would be the voice of the 'mouths' in the apex of the Matachin 
Tower that speak to whoever is around and also to the 'mouths' in the 
other towers. Presumably some kind of automated communication mechanism 
- given the age of the ship/towers, it's quite possible that these 
'mouths' also speak to the Whorl and may be responsible for some of the 
god-communications thereupon.

I find it very interesting that of all the Guild, only Master Gurloes is 
not frightened by these 'mouths' and perhaps actively seeks out their uh 
... company? Gurloes is a thwarted genius and a confirmed alcoholic, a 
very unhappy man indeed from what Severian tells us; but he does seem to 
have these strange insights (for instance: who exactly was it amongst 
the insane 'clients' of the Third Level that he chose to speak to, and 
what did they speak about?).

jd

> ...ryan
>
> On Jul 13, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Cliff Judge<transentient at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 06:23:52 +0000

Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.

He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.

.

>>> Where I am in my re-read of UotNS, it is clear that Tzadkiel is the
>>> ship itself and when the sailors refer to "the Captain" they mean the
>>> disembodied voice that speaks in their heads and that Severian has a
>>> conversation with at one point, I believe after he comes back from the
>>> dead when Sidero pulls his unconscious body out and, as it is implied,
>>> bangs him on the noggin hard enough to kill him.
>>>
>>> I found myself intrigued by that conversation - Tzadkiel was asking him
>>> if he would fight for him, and Severian kept calling Tzadkiel "Master."
>>>
>>> We also know that, though mortals beleive that there are many such
>>> ships as Tzadkiel, most sailors seem to understand that, as impossible
>>> as it seems, there is only one ship, and she may well be infinite.
>>> Presumably she would have to be infinite inside (logically, eventually
>>> people would run into each other no matter how big the ship was
>>> otherwise, and there is also the statement "there were many more than
>>> seven holds.")
>>>
>>> Thinking about the idea that Severian is a Christ-figure, could
>>> Tzadkiel be a sort of God figure? Or perhaps there is a trinity at work
>>> here, Severian, Zak, and the ship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I
>>> confess to being an ex-Catholic who didn't pay enough attention to his
>>> Catechism to know what else to look for to verify this. Or even who is
>>> who.
>>>
>>> I don't know exactly why, but I felt that, when Severian lies dead and
>>> the first-person narrator is suddenly somebody other than Severian,
>>> saying how "I was going to tell him what he must do (find another? or
>>> something else?) but he was cold and dead," to seem to blur the
>>> distinction between Severian and Tzadkiel. There may not be a strong
>>> link there, might just be my imagination.
>>>
>>> Tzadkiel being more like Christ and Severian being more like God the
>>> Father - Tzadkiel is a proxy, led in chains to a rock where there is a
>>> loop with a sliding link. Along the way, Severian steps into his role
>>> of Torturer with a little judo action, then suddenly takes his place.
>>>
>>> coherently as I had hoped when I started writing it. But at the end we
>>> do have the ship blotting out the sun to legitimize Apu-Punchau's
>>> divinity.