{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5665", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5665, "subject": "Patera Inire", "messages": 28, "voices": 9, "first": "2010-07-17T04:07:34+00:00", "last": "2010-07-19T14:22:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<002501cb2565$9985d2c0$01d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T04:07:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't say why Inire was addressed as Father, but I have doubts that he was\nanyone's father in the usual sense of the word, as I am the father of my\nsons, any more than Silk was anyone's father yet was addressed as Patera,\nwhich is just another word for Father.\n\nI don't remember if this angle has ever been brought up before, but Inire's\ntitle may be nothing more than a relic of the past. That is, we are told\nthat the Guild's rituals are held in the *ruins* of a chapel in the Citadel,\nand the Citadel is the nominal seat of the ruler's power, the ultimate\nstronghold. Obviously the religion the chapel served had fallen upon hard\ntimes in Severian's day. That religion, it is clear enough, was based on the\nConciliator/New Sun.\n\nAt one point Sev mentioned the \"thousand-year-old walls of the chapel\". That\nserves to date the religion's inception as approximating the beginning of\nthe autarchy. We are also told that Inire had been vizier to the autarchs\nsince the first autarch, Ymar, and that none of the following autarchs until\nthe Old Autarch had gone to Yesod to try to win a new sun. That last may\nexplain why the chapel in the Citadel had fallen to ruin.\n\nWe are given every reason to believe that Inire's mission on Urth was to\ncause to be delivered a new sun. We are also led to believe that Sev was\nreturned to Urth in Typhon's era, rather than his own, to establish the cult\nor religion of the New Sun, personified as the Conciliator. This Sev did\nwith his miracles and other superhuman feats, then vanished, while Ymar was\nstill a boy.\n\nJust before he vanished, Sev handed over his bloody thorn to a man on Mt.\nTyphon. That thorn eventually became the centerpiece of a female-dominated\nreligious order, the Pelerines. The Pelerines seem to be one of the few\nfunctioning arms of the religion that once held sway in the autarch's seat\nof power.\n\nCould it be that the inception of the religion of the New Sun, the autarchy\nand Inire's first known appearance on Urth are all related? That is, might\nit be that Inire formally founded or was an early member of the newly-minted\nreligion, and that he pushed Ymar to go to Yesod? When Ymar failed to bring\na new sun and a long string of autarchs refused to even try, that the\nreligion faded with the dying sun until Sev's orchestrated rise to power and\neventual success?\n\nThe religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title Father,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84362.24062.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T15:47:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<002501cb2565$9985d2c0$01d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title Father,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This final point really strikes home, methinks. The theory also ties up all the \nvarious strands of Inire's manipulations quite well.\n\nSo what of \"Patera,\" then? When we get to Long Sun, are we supposed to tie the \n\"Inire Religion\" to what Pas has created? \"Patera\" (a nice mix of the possibly \nSpanish/SouthAmerican/Nessus-influenced \"padre\" and Latin \"pater\") is of course \nsuitably close to \"Father\" (the \"authentic\" word Inire used, or at least as the \ntranslator had it). Could this suggest a connection-to-yet-corruption-of the New \nSun religion, rather than the LS theology being completely Pas, et al.'s \ncreation?\n\nQuite a stretch, but Inire's title always did stand out, and the title/office is \nso prominent in LS that it seems worth considering.\n\nCraig\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nTo: urth \nSent: Fri, July 16, 2010 11:07:34 PM\nSubject: (urth) Patera Inire\n\nI can't say why Inire was addressed as Father, but I have doubts that he was\nanyone's father in the usual sense of the word, as I am the father of my\nsons, any more than Silk was anyone's father yet was addressed as Patera,\nwhich is just another word for Father.\n\nI don't remember if this angle has ever been brought up before, but Inire's\ntitle may be nothing more than a relic of the past. That is, we are told\nthat the Guild's rituals are held in the *ruins* of a chapel in the Citadel,\nand the Citadel is the nominal seat of the ruler's power, the ultimate\nstronghold. Obviously the religion the chapel served had fallen upon hard\ntimes in Severian's day. That religion, it is clear enough, was based on the\nConciliator/New Sun.\n\nAt one point Sev mentioned the \"thousand-year-old walls of the chapel\". That\nserves to date the religion's inception as approximating the beginning of\nthe autarchy. We are also told that Inire had been vizier to the autarchs\nsince the first autarch, Ymar, and that none of the following autarchs until\nthe Old Autarch had gone to Yesod to try to win a new sun. That last may\nexplain why the chapel in the Citadel had fallen to ruin.\n\nWe are given every reason to believe that Inire's mission on Urth was to\ncause to be delivered a new sun. We are also led to believe that Sev was\nreturned to Urth in Typhon's era, rather than his own, to establish the cult\nor religion of the New Sun, personified as the Conciliator. This Sev did\nwith his miracles and other superhuman feats, then vanished, while Ymar was\nstill a boy.\n\nJust before he vanished, Sev handed over his bloody thorn to a man on Mt.\nTyphon. That thorn eventually became the centerpiece of a female-dominated\nreligious order, the Pelerines. The Pelerines seem to be one of the few\nfunctioning arms of the religion that once held sway in the autarch's seat\nof power.\n\nCould it be that the inception of the religion of the New Sun, the autarchy\nand Inire's first known appearance on Urth are all related? That is, might\nit be that Inire formally founded or was an early member of the newly-minted\nreligion, and that he pushed Ymar to go to Yesod? When Ymar failed to bring\na new sun and a long string of autarchs refused to even try, that the\nreligion faded with the dying sun until Sev's orchestrated rise to power and\neventual success?\n\nThe religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title Father,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003f01cb25d8$caff8c60$b1ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T17:52:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<84362.24062.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nSo what of \"Patera,\" then? When we get to Long Sun, are we supposed to tie\nthe\n\"Inire Religion\" to what Pas has created? \"Patera\" (a nice mix of the\npossibly\nSpanish/SouthAmerican/Nessus-influenced \"padre\" and Latin \"pater\") is of\ncourse\nsuitably close to \"Father\" (the \"authentic\" word Inire used, or at least\nas the\ntranslator had it). Could this suggest a connection-to-yet-corruption-of\nthe New\nSun religion, rather than the LS theology being completely Pas, et al.'s\ncreation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that is possible. Typhon was stranded on Urth at the time\nSeverian showed up as the Conciliator, meaning that the _Whorl_ was already\ngone and Typhon was not far from death behind his curtain.\n\nThe religion of Viron was said to be a parody of the state religion back on\nUrth. Whatever that state religion may have been, it cannot have been based\non the religion that sprang up surrounding the Conciliator and the desire\nfor a new sun: there had been no need for a new sun before the decline of\nthe old sun observed during Typhon's era.\n\nI intended nothing more by my use of \"Patera\" in the subject line than to\npoint out that Patera means no more and no less than Father or Padre or any\nnumber of other linguistic equivalents.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41EDE0.1090605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T17:52:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<84362.24062.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/17/2010 10:47 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nThe religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title Father,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This final point really strikes home, methinks. The theory also ties up all the\nvarious strands of Inire's manipulations quite well.\n\nSo what of \"Patera,\" then? When we get to Long Sun, are we supposed to tie the\n\"Inire Religion\" to what Pas has created? \"Patera\" (a nice mix of the possibly\nSpanish/SouthAmerican/Nessus-influenced \"padre\" and Latin \"pater\") is of course\nsuitably close to \"Father\" (the \"authentic\" word Inire used, or at least as the\ntranslator had it). Could this suggest a connection-to-yet-corruption-of the New\nSun religion, rather than the LS theology being completely Pas, et al.'s\ncreation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Patera is connected to the Inire, it may be via its Latin usage: a \nritual vessel for carrying libations ready to pour or drink but with a \ndry bump in the middle for steady handling. Given how often people are \nused as vessels for other people's personas in the Long and Short Sun \nbooks..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41EF86.6060508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T17:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C41EDE0.1090605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reminds me of the translation of Pankrater as \"all-holding.\" (a \nkrater being a wine cup)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/17/2010 10:47 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title \nFather,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This final point really strikes home, methinks. The theory also ties \nup all the\nvarious strands of Inire's manipulations quite well.\n\nSo what of \"Patera,\" then? When we get to Long Sun, are we supposed \nto tie the\n\"Inire Religion\" to what Pas has created? \"Patera\" (a nice mix of the \npossibly\nSpanish/SouthAmerican/Nessus-influenced \"padre\" and Latin \"pater\") is \nof course\nsuitably close to \"Father\" (the \"authentic\" word Inire used, or at \nleast as the\ntranslator had it). Could this suggest a \nconnection-to-yet-corruption-of the New\nSun religion, rather than the LS theology being completely Pas, et al.'s\ncreation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Patera is connected to the Inire, it may be via its Latin usage: a \nritual vessel for carrying libations ready to pour or drink but with a \ndry bump in the middle for steady handling. Given how often people are \nused as vessels for other people's personas in the Long and Short Sun \nbooks..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7db4b0f6c1f992e9cc27c74a90486e93.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-17T18:17:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Four Dimensional Maze", "in_reply_to": "<003f01cb25d8$caff8c60$b1ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On urticator.net, no less.\n\nhttp://www.urticator.net/maze/\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C41F6B7.3050100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-17T18:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<84362.24062.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAdmittedly he seems to have no problem with calling himself \"Father\", \nbut then again the word \"father\" here is clearly (?) being used \nmetaphorically.\n\nAnd later wrote:\nThe '?' is to acknowledge that someone has proposed or will propose \nthat Inire is the biological progenitor of nearly all the characters \nin the story, including himself. Its singleness is intended to \nindicate that I do not personally find such lines of inquiry terribly \nuseful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The thing about inquiry is that you don't know if it's useful until \nyou've done it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy wrote:\nI can't say why Inire was addressed as Father, but I have doubts that he was anyone's father in the usual sense of the word, as I am the father of my sons, any more than Silk was anyone's father yet was addressed as Patera, which is just another word for Father.\n\nAnd Later Roy wrote:\nI intended nothing more by my use of \"Patera\" in the subject line than to\npoint out that Patera means no more and no less than Father or Padre or any\nnumber of other linguistic equivalents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it? \"Pater\" means \"father\" in Latin. \"Pateras\" means father in \nmedieval Latin. \"Patera\" is a sort mish-mash Wolfe doesn't seem to \ntypically engage in in the Sun Cycle. In the end, a patera is just a \nshallow bowl. I could connect it a twisted insult of a religious title \nby drawing from the Czech language, but that's a real stretch. Whether \nSilk is anyone's father...well, not directly by seed and \ncopulation...but, I don't want to get off track. I agree that a Darth \nVader/Luke Skywalker show-down is unlikely (\"Ymar and Severian, I *am* \nyour father\").\n\nThe thing is, that while Silk had no \"son of his body\", I don't think he \nis a good example to under-cut Father Inire's possible \"fatherhood\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThe religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title Father,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer:\nQuite a stretch, but Inire's title always did stand out, and the title/office is\nso prominent in LS that it seems worth considering." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure it is that much of a stretch that Inire's title associates \nhim with the religion of the Concilliator.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901cb25fe$adf003e0$06d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-17T22:23:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C41F6B7.3050100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe thing is, that while Silk had no \"son of his body\", I don't think he\nis a good example to under-cut Father Inire's possible \"fatherhood\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mentioned Patera Silk as an example from the Sun Cycle of a man who is a\npriest who had no natural children. Priests of the RC Church, and others,\nalso are commonly addressed as Father, even though they are mandated by the\nlaws of their church to be celibate and not to engage in sexual congress.\nIt's Father in English, Padre in Spanish, etc. But you already know that. In\nLS, priests are addressed as Patera in exactly the same way that priests in\nthe Catholic Church are addressed as Father; I daresay for the same reasons.\n\nAnyway, Inire is stated to be a cacogen, an alien. It is very doubtful that\nhe could have fathered any children on a human woman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Roy wrote:\nThe religion faded away, but not Inire. He may have kept the title\nFather,\njust as the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was addressed as Mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Craig Brewer:\nQuite a stretch, but Inire's title always did stand out, and the\ntitle/office is\nso prominent in LS that it seems worth considering." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure it is that much of a stretch that Inire's title associates\nhim with the religion of the Concilliator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not what Craig said was a stretch. You left out this paragraph\nbetween the above quotes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what of \"Patera,\" then? When we get to Long Sun, are we supposed to tie\nthe\n\"Inire Religion\" to what Pas has created? \"Patera\" (a nice mix of the\npossibly\nSpanish/SouthAmerican/Nessus-influenced \"padre\" and Latin \"pater\") is of\ncourse\nsuitably close to \"Father\" (the \"authentic\" word Inire used, or at least\nas the\ntranslator had it). Could this suggest a connection-to-yet-corruption-of\nthe New\nSun religion, rather than the LS theology being completely Pas, et al.'s\ncreation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What he meant was a stretch was his own speculation, the one in the\nparagraph immediately above.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4286B4.6010601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T04:44:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<002901cb25fe$adf003e0$06d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI mentioned Patera Silk as an example from the Sun Cycle of a man who is a\npriest who had no natural children. Priests of the RC Church, and others,\nalso are commonly addressed as Father, even though they are mandated by the\nlaws of their church to be celibate and not to engage in sexual congress.\nIt's Father in English, Padre in Spanish, etc. But you already know that. In\nLS, priests are addressed as Patera in exactly the same way that priests in\nthe Catholic Church are addressed as Father; I daresay for the same reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Palaemon is also referred to as \"Master\" in exactly the same way \n\"that priests in the Catholic Church are addressed as Father\". That is, \nit is his title. No one in the Whorl refers to their natural father as \nhis \"patera\". Nor has anyone else in the world ever done so as far as I \nknow. It doesn't map. I agree that the Chapter priests are intended to \ncall to mind RC priests. But if Wolfe wanted to choose a cognate for \n\"father\" he had dozens of actual options. Whatever one thinks he was \ngoing for _most_ directly, I don't think \"father\" is it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAnyway, Inire is stated to be a cacogen, an alien. It is very doubtful that\nhe could have fathered any children on a human woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm really not trying to prove that Father Inire fathered children by \nseed and coupling. I'm not trying to prove anything specific at all. \nOnly this: In a Wolfe story, one might be a parent or child or sibling \nin many ways. A character might call someone \"father\" (as N5 called \nMaitre and Hoof called the Rajan) or call someone \"son\" or \"daughter\" \n(as Silk called Blood and the Rajan called Jahlee). Obviously, their \nrelationship is not parent-child in the traditional sense. But that \ndoesn't mean that that is not what Wolfe was angling at. He does it so \noften, I would beware assuming he does not mean it in any particular \ninstance just because it is not immediately apparent how he would mean \nit that way.\n\nBut as you pointed out, the Domnicellae of the Pelerines was called \n\"Mother\". I think that is significant.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T05:13:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C4286B4.6010601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- We are given every reason to believe that Inire's mission\non Urth was to cause to be delivered a new sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI do agree with this conclusion. Most important in my disagreement is the\nsense I have that this story was written (and meant to be read) through a\nChristian lens. Severian may be interpreted as a Christ- or Christian figure\nbut I can't see Father Inire in that light. In UotNS we are told that Inire has\nbeen Severian's friend and warmly bid him farewell on his journey to the stars.\nSo perhaps he was not antagonistic toward Severian's quest for a New Sun, no more\nthan Apollo and Mercury were antagonistic toward Jesus. They may have set the \nstage for the coming of Jesus but they didn't purposefully work toward it.\n \nMore specific counter-evidence from the text:\n \n1. Inire has built a Byzantine (pagan) society in which religion has little \nimportance and is based on elaborate ritual rather than faith. If he was \nhighly involved in bringing the New Sun I think we'd see some association of\nhim with the Pelerinnes but we don't.\n \n2. We do not see Inire openly present in Urth's past, at the end of Typhon's\nrule, when he should have been there getting the New Sun cult started. Borski\nthinks Ceryx is Father Inire disguised but he hardly seems to be working\ntoward bringing the New Sun. Quite the opposite. He competes with Severian, \ncreates zombies and tries to kill The Conciliator. Not very Christian/New Sunish.\n \n \n3. Inire's 1000 year rule behind the throne produced only two attempts to bring\nthe New Sun before Severian, both failures. Moreover, both Inire's letter and the\nwords of the Old Autarch make it fairly clear they are maintaining the war with\nthe Ascians in equilibrium, propping up the enemies of the New Sun such as the\nVodelarii (and perhaps the Jungle Sorcerers), ensuring they remain to keep \nbalance/stasis between the contending forces.\n \n4. We do not see any hint of Father Inire when Severian returns to the Flood Day\nthe last day of Urth (first day of Ushas). Valeria has been ruling without his \nassistance. If Inire's sole purpose was bringing the New SUn, doesn't good story\ntelling demand some mention of him at the fruition of his life's work? What does \nhis absence on this important day suggest?\n \n4. It seems implied that the Old Autarch used a version of Father Inire's mirrors\nto travel to Tzadkiel. Inire shares mirror-using with Hethor (along with some\nother traits). Using mirrors does not seem to be a good way of impressing Tzadkiel\nor bringing the New Sun. Severian notes that Inire's mirror chamber is marked with\na \"terratoid\" (monsterous) symbol. \n \n5. Cyriaca gives us this cryptic quote about the mirrors, \"...cacogens had landed\nsomewhere in the north [Baldander's Castle, we learn]... I suppose they must have \nwished to avoid the mirrors at the House Absolute so they could escape the eyes of\nthe Autarch. I think this suggests B, F and O don't like the mirrors, and Inire, \neither. We certainly never see them working with Inire. The closest they get is\nwatching Eschatology and Genesis and that is probably to see Severian perform. If \nInire is the cowled servitor then both he and the hierodules are well wrapped and \ndisguised in their closest encounter.\n \n6. During the story of his travels, Severian's foreshadowing makes it clear he does \nnot use Inire's or the Old Autarch's mirrors to complete his New Sun quest. He \ntravels to the stars on a ship, as UotNS later confirms.\n\n \n7. Severian has been chosen to bring the New Sun because he has his so-called perfect\nmemory and/or because he was raised as a torturer and has the capacity for such a \ngenocidal act. Either way, I don't see evidence that Father Inire is working to create\nor develop or recognize or recruit these talents in Severian before his ascension. (after\nhis ascension there is an interesting exception, listed below). His interest in Severian\nseems only to serve, once again, as vizier, as the power behind the throne.\n \n8. Inire's letter to Severian is all about war and political intrigues but there\nactually is one hint of recognition there about Severian's divine role. The letter\naddresses Severian, among other things as, \"Helios, Hyperion, Surya and Savitar\". These\ndeity names are Greek and Vedic parallels for the male gods of the sun and of light. \nThis is surely a recognition of Severian's New Sun role. But this recognition does not\nimply to me that Inire is working toward the New Sun goal, especially light of #1-7.\nMoreover these are pagan gods and I think Inire (as a pagan god allusion himself)\njust doesn't get the Judeo-Christian role Severian will play.\n \nFWIW- Inire's letter also calls Severian \"Messenger of Dawn\". In context, this must refer\nto the female god of the Dawn, the Greek Eos/Roman Aurora, daughter of Hyperion, sister to\nHelios. Is this Inire's acknowledgement of Severian's Thecla side? Perhaps even more \ninteresting is that the Vedic cognate to Eos is the Sanskrit for dawn: ????; u?as or \nUshas.\n \n \nI think the answer to the question of where Father Inire goes just before and after the New Sun\narrives is the same as the answer for how a flood can destroy large creatures that live\nin the ocean. I think the answer is not easily found in the text as in Judeo-Christian allegory.\nAbaia and Erebus went to the same place that the Nephilim and lamia and other demons went \nafter Noah's Flood. And Father Inire went to the same place Helios and Zeus and Aurora went\nafter Christianity replaced their religion. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<84853f5404f88d084c1e1440b48cf01f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T05:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Byzantine society was Christian.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- We are given every reason to believe that Inire's mission\non Urth was to cause to be delivered a new sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do agree with this conclusion. Most important in my disagreement is the\nsense I have that this story was written (and meant to be read) through a\nChristian lens. Severian may be interpreted as a Christ- or Christian\nfigure\nbut I can't see Father Inire in that light. In UotNS we are told that\nInire has\nbeen Severian's friend and warmly bid him farewell on his journey to the\nstars.\nSo perhaps he was not antagonistic toward Severian's quest for a New Sun,\nno more\nthan Apollo and Mercury were antagonistic toward Jesus. They may have set\nthe\nstage for the coming of Jesus but they didn't purposefully work toward\nit.\n\nMore specific counter-evidence from the text:\n\n1. Inire has built a Byzantine (pagan) society in which religion has\nlittle\nimportance and is based on elaborate ritual rather than faith. If he was\nhighly involved in bringing the New Sun I think we'd see some association\nof\nhim with the Pelerinnes but we don't.\n\n2. We do not see Inire openly present in Urth's past, at the end of\nTyphon's\nrule, when he should have been there getting the New Sun cult started.\nBorski\nthinks Ceryx is Father Inire disguised but he hardly seems to be working\ntoward bringing the New Sun. Quite the opposite. He competes with\nSeverian,\ncreates zombies and tries to kill The Conciliator. Not very Christian/New\nSunish.\n\n\n3. Inire's 1000 year rule behind the throne produced only two attempts to\nbring\nthe New Sun before Severian, both failures. Moreover, both Inire's letter\nand the\nwords of the Old Autarch make it fairly clear they are maintaining the war\nwith\nthe Ascians in equilibrium, propping up the enemies of the New Sun such as\nthe\nVodelarii (and perhaps the Jungle Sorcerers), ensuring they remain to keep\nbalance/stasis between the contending forces.\n\n4. We do not see any hint of Father Inire when Severian returns to the\nFlood Day\nthe last day of Urth (first day of Ushas). Valeria has been ruling without\nhis\nassistance. If Inire's sole purpose was bringing the New SUn, doesn't good\nstory\ntelling demand some mention of him at the fruition of his life's work?\nWhat does\nhis absence on this important day suggest?\n\n4. It seems implied that the Old Autarch used a version of Father Inire's\nmirrors\nto travel to Tzadkiel. Inire shares mirror-using with Hethor (along with\nsome\nother traits). Using mirrors does not seem to be a good way of impressing\nTzadkiel\nor bringing the New Sun. Severian notes that Inire's mirror chamber is\nmarked with\na \"terratoid\" (monsterous) symbol.\n\n5. Cyriaca gives us this cryptic quote about the mirrors, \"...cacogens had\nlanded\nsomewhere in the north [Baldander's Castle, we learn]... I suppose they\nmust have\nwished to avoid the mirrors at the House Absolute so they could escape the\neyes of\nthe Autarch. I think this suggests B, F and O don't like the mirrors, and\nInire,\neither. We certainly never see them working with Inire. The closest they\nget is\nwatching Eschatology and Genesis and that is probably to see Severian\nperform. If\nInire is the cowled servitor then both he and the hierodules are well\nwrapped and\ndisguised in their closest encounter.\n\n6. During the story of his travels, Severian's foreshadowing makes it\nclear he does\nnot use Inire's or the Old Autarch's mirrors to complete his New Sun\nquest. He\ntravels to the stars on a ship, as UotNS later confirms.\n\n\n7. Severian has been chosen to bring the New Sun because he has his\nso-called perfect\nmemory and/or because he was raised as a torturer and has the capacity for\nsuch a\ngenocidal act. Either way, I don't see evidence that Father Inire is\nworking to create\nor develop or recognize or recruit these talents in Severian before his\nascension. (after\nhis ascension there is an interesting exception, listed below). His\ninterest in Severian\nseems only to serve, once again, as vizier, as the power behind the\nthrone.\n\n8. Inire's letter to Severian is all about war and political intrigues but\nthere\nactually is one hint of recognition there about Severian's divine role.\nThe letter\naddresses Severian, among other things as, \"Helios, Hyperion, Surya and\nSavitar\". These\ndeity names are Greek and Vedic parallels for the male gods of the sun and\nof light.\nThis is surely a recognition of Severian's New Sun role. But this\nrecognition does not\nimply to me that Inire is working toward the New Sun goal, especially\nlight of #1-7.\nMoreover these are pagan gods and I think Inire (as a pagan god allusion\nhimself)\njust doesn't get the Judeo-Christian role Severian will play.\n\nFWIW- Inire's letter also calls Severian \"Messenger of Dawn\". In context,\nthis must refer\nto the female god of the Dawn, the Greek Eos/Roman Aurora, daughter of\nHyperion, sister to\nHelios. Is this Inire's acknowledgement of Severian's Thecla side? Perhaps\neven more\ninteresting is that the Vedic cognate to Eos is the Sanskrit for dawn:\n????????????; u???as or\nUshas.\n\n\nI think the answer to the question of where Father Inire goes just before\nand after the New Sun\narrives is the same as the answer for how a flood can destroy large\ncreatures that live\nin the ocean. I think the answer is not easily found in the text as in\nJudeo-Christian allegory.\nAbaia and Erebus went to the same place that the Nephilim and lamia and\nother demons went\nafter Noah's Flood. And Father Inire went to the same place Helios and\nZeus and Aurora went\nafter Christianity replaced their religion.\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with\nHotmail.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T06:06:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<84853f5404f88d084c1e1440b48cf01f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians- Byzantine society was Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, thanks, that is correct. Sorry, confused with \nOttoman. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<004901cb264b$3d619880$16d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-18T07:31:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C4286B4.6010601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:\nI mentioned Patera Silk as an example from the Sun Cycle of a man who is\na\npriest who had no natural children. Priests of the RC Church, and\nothers,\nalso are commonly addressed as Father, even though they are mandated by\nthe\nlaws of their church to be celibate and not to engage in sexual\ncongress.\nIt's Father in English, Padre in Spanish, etc. But you already know\nthat. In\nLS, priests are addressed as Patera in exactly the same way that priests\nin\nthe Catholic Church are addressed as Father; I daresay for the same\nreasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Palaemon is also referred to as \"Master\" in exactly the same way\n\"that priests in the Catholic Church are addressed as Father\". That is,\nit is his title. No one in the Whorl refers to their natural father as\nhis \"patera\". Nor has anyone else in the world ever done so as far as I\nknow. It doesn't map." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. If I had said any such thing I would have been wrong. I didn't say\nany such thing. Quite the opposite." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that the Chapter priests are intended to\ncall to mind RC priests. But if Wolfe wanted to choose a cognate for\n\"father\" he had dozens of actual options. Whatever one thinks he was\ngoing for _most_ directly, I don't think \"father\" is it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I agree. I'm not the one who thinks Inire is anyone's father. In so\nfar as this subject has anything to do with the thrust of this thread I\nstarted, I have said that the titles \"Father\" and \"Patera\" are religious\ntitles that have nothing to do with either being a biological father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAnyway, Inire is stated to be a cacogen, an alien. It is very doubtful\nthat\nhe could have fathered any children on a human woman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm really not trying to prove that Father Inire fathered children by\nseed and coupling. I'm not trying to prove anything specific at all.\nOnly this: In a Wolfe story, one might be a parent or child or sibling\nin many ways. A character might call someone \"father\" (as N5 called\nMaitre and Hoof called the Rajan) or call someone \"son\" or \"daughter\"\n(as Silk called Blood and the Rajan called Jahlee). Obviously, their\nrelationship is not parent-child in the traditional sense. But that\ndoesn't mean that that is not what Wolfe was angling at. He does it so\noften, I would beware assuming he does not mean it in any particular\ninstance just because it is not immediately apparent how he would mean\nit that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And just because a priest addresses a member of his congregation as \"my son\"\nor \"my daughter\" does not imply that he is the father of either.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C42B045.2090204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T07:41:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 12:13 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMore specific counter-evidence from the text:\n\n1. Inire has built a Byzantine (pagan) society in which religion has little\nimportance and is based on elaborate ritual rather than faith. If he was\nhighly involved in bringing the New Sun I think we'd see some association of\nhim with the Pelerinnes but we don't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems ambiguous to me; the religion doesn't have to be sincere or \ntrue to achieve the ends of the people that promulgate it. Perhaps the \nPelerines are on the opposite side of some scism or reformation, and are \nnow fellow travelers, like the Eastern Orthodox and Roman catholic \nchurches. Inire's objective seems to be the literal bringing of the New \nSun, which can be served by a front in the religious sphere as well as \nthe impasse with the Ascians in the secular sphere, and the subversion \nof Vodalus' movement in the political sphere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. We do not see Inire openly present in Urth's past, at the end of Typhon's\nrule, when he should have been there getting the New Sun cult started." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He doesn't need to get the New Sun cult started, the Concilliator did a \ngood job of that himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Inire's 1000 year rule behind the throne produced only two attempts to bring\nthe New Sun before Severian, both failures. Moreover, both Inire's letter and the\nwords of the Old Autarch make it fairly clear they are maintaining the war with\nthe Ascians in equilibrium, propping up the enemies of the New Sun such as the\nVodelarii (and perhaps the Jungle Sorcerers), ensuring they remain to keep\nbalance/stasis between the contending forces." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This can be a form of cynical cold war strategem, to keep the hot war at \nthe fringes while letting both sides appear to their masters to be doing \nsomething productive while trying to bankrupt the other side's economy \nor stall for time to have some greater strategem put in place. Once the \nYesodis had a report of Sev on the Throne at some time, it was all about \nkeeping the path open for him and preparing him for the judgment, with \nless than a century before the white fountain's advent it was either \nSeverian or the hawkfaced guy.\n\nAnd while Inire only delivered three candidates to Yesod, that doens't \nmean there weren't other candidates that Master Ash's posse might have \ngotten rid of, like the mysteriously unreturned Sulpicius." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. We do not see any hint of Father Inire when Severian returns to the Flood Day\nthe last day of Urth (first day of Ushas). Valeria has been ruling without his\nassistance. If Inire's sole purpose was bringing the New SUn, doesn't good story\ntelling demand some mention of him at the fruition of his life's work? What does\nhis absence on this important day suggest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, that he died before Sev got back?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. It seems implied that the Old Autarch used a version of Father Inire's mirrors\nto travel to Tzadkiel. Inire shares mirror-using with Hethor (along with some\nother traits). Using mirrors does not seem to be a good way of impressing Tzadkiel\nor bringing the New Sun. Severian notes that Inire's mirror chamber is marked with\na \"terratoid\" (monsterous) symbol." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...meaning \"Danger\", perhaps, like the skull and cross bones used to \nwarn people from household poisons. As for mirrors not impressing \nTzadkiel, perhaps they don't but he is not adverse to using them himself \nas Zak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. Cyriaca gives us this cryptic quote about the mirrors, \"...cacogens had landed\nsomewhere in the north [Baldander's Castle, we learn]... I suppose they must have\nwished to avoid the mirrors at the House Absolute so they could escape the eyes of\nthe Autarch. I think this suggests B, F and O don't like the mirrors, and Inire,\neither. We certainly never see them working with Inire. The closest they get is\nwatching Eschatology and Genesis and that is probably to see Severian perform. If\nInire is the cowled servitor then both he and the hierodules are well wrapped and\ndisguised in their closest encounter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know there is some sort of complicated double masquerade going on \nboth literally and figuratively at the House Absolute apparently \ninvolbing both galactic aliens (the proper cacogens) and the Yesodis who \nfind it convenient to adopt their guise. If Cyriaca's guesswork is \nrevelatory, that doesn't require it to be straightforward or even \nparticularly insightful. Perhaps FB&O want to give the appearance of \ncacogen activity in the north to allow Inire to pressure the Exultants \nof that region to concede to searches or increased garrisons or hjigher \ntaxes, or just to take the heat off of some other region that has been \nmore cooperative, or...*insert spy novel intrigue here*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. During the story of his travels, Severian's foreshadowing makes it clear he does\nnot use Inire's or the Old Autarch's mirrors to complete his New Sun quest. He\ntravels to the stars on a ship, as UotNS later confirms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mirrors have a transformative element - once Severian is at his peak \nof readiness, they would not want to risk turning him into a ghost or a \ncaveman or Good Kirk/Evil Kirk twins. The ship gets you there the way \nyou are, even if where you come back to is kind of different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7. Severian has been chosen to bring the New Sun because he has his so-called perfect\nmemory and/or because he was raised as a torturer and has the capacity for such a\ngenocidal act. Either way, I don't see evidence that Father Inire is working to create\nor develop or recognize or recruit these talents in Severian before his ascension. (after\nhis ascension there is an interesting exception, listed below). His interest in Severian\nseems only to serve, once again, as vizier, as the power behind the throne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Inire need to do this in a way that would be detectable? They know \nthere's a \"Severian the Torturer\" who ascends the throne, and if they \nhave to take steps to make sure Sev is born with perfect recall, that \njob's obviously done before Severian is available to observe and narrate \nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "8. Inire's letter to Severian is all about war and political intrigues but there\nactually is one hint of recognition there about Severian's divine role. The letter\naddresses Severian, among other things as, \"Helios, Hyperion, Surya and Savitar\". These\ndeity names are Greek and Vedic parallels for the male gods of the sun and of light.\nThis is surely a recognition of Severian's New Sun role. But this recognition does not\nimply to me that Inire is working toward the New Sun goal, especially light of #1-7.\nMoreover these are pagan gods and I think Inire (as a pagan god allusion himself)\njust doesn't get the Judeo-Christian role Severian will play." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He can't call him J-C names because the conceit of the Book is that this \nis a world where they are unknown. Pagan and non-specific labels like \n\"Theoanthropos\" are all that's left to compare with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW- Inire's letter also calls Severian \"Messenger of Dawn\". In context, this must refer\nto the female god of the Dawn, the Greek Eos/Roman Aurora, daughter of Hyperion, sister to\nHelios. Is this Inire's acknowledgement of Severian's Thecla side?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oy, I am reconfronted with the image of John Hurt as Caligula prancing \nabout as Dawn in the BBC's _I, Claudius_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<94000508745476f64325e30039d875a7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T07:54:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C42B045.2090204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " the religion doesn't have to be sincere or\ntrue to achieve the ends of the people that promulgate it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it does.\n\nI think that if it is not sincere or true it will achieve ends other than\nthose those intended.\n\nWhat was Communism but one of these religions?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T11:15:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<94000508745476f64325e30039d875a7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 3:54 AM, wrote:\nWilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " the religion doesn't have to be sincere or\ntrue to achieve the ends of the people that promulgate it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know I keep pointing this out, but I think the correct resolution of this\nquestion in the New Sun universe and in Wolfe general is that insofar as a\nfalse religion achieves its ends it does so because it has been hijacked by\nthe true religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T12:58:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The false religion doesn't achieve its intended ends.\n\nIt achieves the ends of the true religion that has hijacked it.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 3:54 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " the religion doesn't have to be sincere or\ntrue to achieve the ends of the people that promulgate it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know I keep pointing this out, but I think the correct resolution of\nthis\nquestion in the New Sun universe and in Wolfe general is that insofar as a\nfalse religion achieves its ends it does so because it has been hijacked\nby\nthe true religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ".\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<441CDB69-407C-4005-A302-54FBA3AFCD9C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T15:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C4286B4.6010601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/07/18, ?s 05:44, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I agree that the Chapter priests are intended to call to mind RC \npriests. But if Wolfe wanted to choose a cognate for \"father\" he had \ndozens of actual options. Whatever one thinks he was going for \n_most_ directly, I don't think \"father\" is it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never given it much thought. The names in Viron's religion seem \nGreek so I just assumed patera and maytera were to be understood as \nsuch - the Greek for father is stressed on the er and patera would be \na way to suggest that stress. Istr that somewhere in the text someone \nsays that those terms are meant to show respect though the adresssed \nisn't the biological father or mother of the addressing one.\n\nI say Viron's religion because it isn't at all clear to me that the \nother cities in the Whorl follow similar ideas, e even if they draw \nfrom the same source. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<005201cb26a3$46ada160$fad24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-07-18T18:01:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n4. It seems implied that the Old Autarch used a version of Father Inire's\nmirrors\nto travel to Tzadkiel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To his trial? No, he went to Yesod the same way Sev did.\n\n\"Soon I recalled that when the old Autarch had been brought to Yesod, just\nsuch a ship had come for him.\" (URTH, chap. XV, 109)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C438058.9050101@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T22:29:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 6:15 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nI know I keep pointing this out, but I think the correct resolution of\nthis question in the New Sun universe and in Wolfe general is that\ninsofar as a false religion achieves its ends it does so because it has\nbeen hijacked by the true religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I was thinking, which can coexist with usual SF trope \nof the Fake Religion As a Secular Tool (see Dune, Foundation, The Day \nAfter Tomorrow, Cat's Cradle) even as it subverts it.\n\nPas and the Outsider both want to get the people of the Whorl where they \nare going, Inire and the Increate both want to deliver the Urth and the \nHuman Race back into their natural condition under a healthy sun - thus \nthe bad serves good, and the false proves faithful to the higher truth, \nlike Severian says over and over again." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T22:37:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C438058.9050101@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not?\n\nThis is the way things go in the real World.\n\nIn India it is exprressed a different way: the third member of the Indian\ntrinity is the Lord of Destruction.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 6:15 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know I keep pointing this out, but I think the correct resolution of\nthis question in the New Sun universe and in Wolfe general is that\ninsofar as a false religion achieves its ends it does so because it has\nbeen hijacked by the true religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's what I was thinking, which can coexist with usual SF trope\nof the Fake Religion As a Secular Tool (see Dune, Foundation, The Day\nAfter Tomorrow, Cat's Cradle) even as it subverts it.\n\nPas and the Outsider both want to get the people of the Whorl where they\nare going, Inire and the Increate both want to deliver the Urth and the\nHuman Race back into their natural condition under a healthy sun - thus\nthe bad serves good, and the false proves faithful to the higher truth,\nlike Severian says over and over again.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T03:34:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: I think the correct resolution of\nthis question in the New Sun universe and in Wolfe general is that\ninsofar as a false religion achieves its ends it does so because it has\nbeen hijacked by the true religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Yes, that's what I was thinking, which can coexist with usual\nSF trope of the Fake Religion As a Secular Tool.....thus \nthe bad serves good, and the false proves faithful to the higher truth, \nlike Severian says over and over again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is all good but not (I think) answering the question which is being\nasked. Perhaps we've all seen the Christian bumper sticker which reads:\n\"I know the Future. God wins\". So fine, we know that. No matter the \ntriumph of evil, we know God eventually uses that victory to His final ends.\nDoes this mean Satanists and Hindus and atheists are purposefully working toward \nChristian goals because their actions will eventually lead to God's victory?\n \nThe question that is posed is whether Father Inire is consciously working\ntoward bringing the New Sun. Of course whether the New Sun is an evil event or\nnot has been debated in other threads. But let's assume that the New Sun\nis, ultimately, a \"good\" thing intended to happen by the Increate. By what\ndirect evidence do we know that Inire is consciously working toward making\nit happen? His mirrors, his vizier-hood, his architectural exploits, his war and \nprocurement of weaponry from his alien cousins, his distance from B, F and O and \nTzadkiel etc.; none seem to suggest Inire has the direct purpose of helping Severian\nbring the New Sun. He seems to be playing his own game.\n\nThis gap of purpose for Inire has left me dissatisfied and forced to seek another\ninterpretation of the guy. Casting him in the role of pagan god in the face\nof impending Christianity ties the story together for me. Not just Inire's\ngovernmental role but the veiled references to shapeshifting, monstrous beings,\nhalf-man half beasts, incest, angels etc. all tied together in a nice pagan package.\n \nThe Greek and Roman gods were associated with their respective empires. \nGreek and Roman civilizations were the creche and nursery of a now globe-spanning\nreligion. If the Olympian gods were actual, real beings (as Wolfe believes they were)\nwould we want to say that Zeus and Hermes and Vulcan etc. spent their immortal lives\nconsciously working toward the goal of Christianity? That's why they promoted the\nGreek and Roman empires, because they knew it would lead to Jesus? Did Pas set up\nthe Whorl because he knew it would lead to the ascendence of the Outsider? \nI really can't see that.\n \nLikewise, while I can see Father Inire advancing the Commonwealth, it is without\npurposefully working toward the New Sun. My sense is that higher powers made Inire's\nUrthly efforts work for them. Bottom line, this guy isn't Typhon but he is just too \ncreepy and ugly to be an angel. Perhaps the fall damaged him. Likely Inire's \nvarious corrupting influences are a big part of the reason a Flood is needed. \n \nFWIW, this works for me. Understood if it makes no sense to others.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C43E273.5020505@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T05:28:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 10:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe Greek and Roman gods were associated with their respective empires.\nGreek and Roman civilizations were the creche and nursery of a now globe-spanning\nreligion. If the Olympian gods were actual, real beings (as Wolfe believes they were)\nwould we want to say that Zeus and Hermes and Vulcan etc. spent their immortal lives\nconsciously working toward the goal of Christianity? That's why they promoted the\nGreek and Roman empires, because they knew it would lead to Jesus? Did Pas set up\nthe Whorl because he knew it would lead to the ascendence of the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zeus and Pas might not, but Prometheus would like he did during the last \ndivine regime change.\n\nThe old Autarch is a double agent for the Commonwealth and for Vodalus; \nInire can do an even better job of hiding his true loyalties, and even \nthe unlikeliest plot ot plan can go swimmingly with time travel \nsuspending the laws of probability when the person carrying them out has \nalready seen his success ensured." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C443AAE.5020501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-19T11:44:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Inire ever do anything without being commanded so by the Autarch?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThis is all good but not (I think) answering the question which is being\nasked. Perhaps we've all seen the Christian bumper sticker which reads:\n\"I know the Future. God wins\". So fine, we know that. No matter the \ntriumph of evil, we know God eventually uses that victory to His final ends.\nDoes this mean Satanists and Hindus and atheists are purposefully working toward \nChristian goals because their actions will eventually lead to God's victory?\n \nThe question that is posed is whether Father Inire is consciously working\ntoward bringing the New Sun. Of course whether the New Sun is an evil event or\nnot has been debated in other threads. But let's assume that the New Sun\nis, ultimately, a \"good\" thing intended to happen by the Increate. By what\ndirect evidence do we know that Inire is consciously working toward making\nit happen? His mirrors, his vizier-hood, his architectural exploits, his war and \nprocurement of weaponry from his alien cousins, his distance from B, F and O and \nTzadkiel etc.; none seem to suggest Inire has the direct purpose of helping Severian\nbring the New Sun. He seems to be playing his own game.\n\nThis gap of purpose for Inire has left me dissatisfied and forced to seek another\ninterpretation of the guy. Casting him in the role of pagan god in the face\nof impending Christianity ties the story together for me. Not just Inire's\ngovernmental role but the veiled references to shapeshifting, monstrous beings,\nhalf-man half beasts, incest, angels etc. all tied together in a nice pagan package.\n \nThe Greek and Roman gods were associated with their respective empires. \nGreek and Roman civilizations were the creche and nursery of a now globe-spanning\nreligion. If the Olympian gods were actual, real beings (as Wolfe believes they were)\nwould we want to say that Zeus and Hermes and Vulcan etc. spent their immortal lives\nconsciously working toward the goal of Christianity? That's why they promoted the\nGreek and Roman empires, because they knew it would lead to Jesus? Did Pas set up\nthe Whorl because he knew it would lead to the ascendence of the Outsider? \nI really can't see that.\n \nLikewise, while I can see Father Inire advancing the Commonwealth, it is without\npurposefully working toward the New Sun. My sense is that higher powers made Inire's\nUrthly efforts work for them. Bottom line, this guy isn't Typhon but he is just too \ncreepy and ugly to be an angel. Perhaps the fall damaged him. Likely Inire's \nvarious corrupting influences are a big part of the reason a Flood is needed. \n \nFWIW, this works for me. Understood if it makes no sense to others.\n \n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2569391e403d84ee7c45c21872c8b751.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-19T12:01:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C443AAE.5020501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Satan ever do anything without being commanded to by God?\n\nThe servant of the Great King does the Great King's will.\n\nThe will of the Great King is the will of the servant.\n\nThere is no God where I am.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Inire ever do anything without being commanded so by the Autarch?\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is all good but not (I think) answering the question which is being\nasked. Perhaps we've all seen the Christian bumper sticker which reads:\n\"I know the Future. God wins\". So fine, we know that. No matter the\ntriumph of evil, we know God eventually uses that victory to His final\nends.\nDoes this mean Satanists and Hindus and atheists are purposefully\nworking toward\nChristian goals because their actions will eventually lead to God's\nvictory?\n\nThe question that is posed is whether Father Inire is consciously\nworking\ntoward bringing the New Sun. Of course whether the New Sun is an evil\nevent or\nnot has been debated in other threads. But let's assume that the New Sun\nis, ultimately, a \"good\" thing intended to happen by the Increate. By\nwhat\ndirect evidence do we know that Inire is consciously working toward\nmaking\nit happen? His mirrors, his vizier-hood, his architectural exploits, his\nwar and\nprocurement of weaponry from his alien cousins, his distance from B, F\nand O and\nTzadkiel etc.; none seem to suggest Inire has the direct purpose of\nhelping Severian\nbring the New Sun. He seems to be playing his own game.\n\nThis gap of purpose for Inire has left me dissatisfied and forced to\nseek another\ninterpretation of the guy. Casting him in the role of pagan god in the\nface\nof impending Christianity ties the story together for me. Not just\nInire's\ngovernmental role but the veiled references to shapeshifting, monstrous\nbeings,\nhalf-man half beasts, incest, angels etc. all tied together in a nice\npagan package.\n\nThe Greek and Roman gods were associated with their respective empires.\nGreek and Roman civilizations were the creche and nursery of a now\nglobe-spanning\nreligion. If the Olympian gods were actual, real beings (as Wolfe\nbelieves they were)\nwould we want to say that Zeus and Hermes and Vulcan etc. spent their\nimmortal lives\nconsciously working toward the goal of Christianity? That's why they\npromoted the\nGreek and Roman empires, because they knew it would lead to Jesus? Did\nPas set up\nthe Whorl because he knew it would lead to the ascendence of the\nOutsider?\nI really can't see that.\n\nLikewise, while I can see Father Inire advancing the Commonwealth, it is\nwithout\npurposefully working toward the New Sun. My sense is that higher powers\nmade Inire's\nUrthly efforts work for them. Bottom line, this guy isn't Typhon but he\nis just too\ncreepy and ugly to be an angel. Perhaps the fall damaged him. Likely\nInire's\nvarious corrupting influences are a big part of the reason a Flood is\nneeded.\n\nFWIW, this works for me. Understood if it makes no sense to others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C444CCD.9030808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T13:02:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C443AAE.5020501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (19-07-2010 12:44):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Inire ever do anything without being commanded so by the Autarch?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This question ties in with something that's been bothering me, namely the\nnotion that Inire is a very important character that mandates everything.\n\nI think the problem people are having in determining Inire's intentions is\nthat he as none. I don't see evidence that Inire has any purpose of his own.\nAll I see him doing is upholding the Autarchy, as if he had been assigned\nthat singleminded task. His letter to Severian reminds me of what AIs in SF \nreply when their master asks them to give a report of the situation and the \noptions available." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T13:10:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C444CCD.9030808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "would we want to say that Zeus and Hermes and Vulcan etc. spent their immortal lives\nconsciously working toward the goal of Christianity? Did Pas set up the Whorl \nbecause he knew it would lead to the ascendence of the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Zeus and Pas might not, but Prometheus would like he did during the last \ndivine regime change." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nYes, Prometheus is the perfect example to help me clarify what I am trying to get to. \nThanks.\n \nTo his Greek believers Prometheus is the one who created humanity, invented arts and\nsciences for them and of course stole fire for them. For his favoring of humanity, Zeus\nchained Prometheus to a rocky mountain (Gyoll? Urth? Mt. Nebo?) until Heracles freed him. \nPrometheus' sister-in-law, Pandora, (cognate to Eve and Meschianne) is surely referenced\nin BotNS. Prometheus sounds like a pretty good guy but I'm not sure he can be seen as \npurposefully preparing humanity for Christianity. Arethere religious scholars who see\nPrometheus as a knowing Christian agent? \n \n(FWIW, Heracles is the son of Zeus and Alcmene. She is Zeus' great granddaughter. I hope \nit is clear why this is relevant to me).\n\n \nNow, from a different perspective it seems the Judeo-Christian version of Prometheus is \nAzazel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to the Book of Enoch, Azazel was a grigori (also known as \"watchers\"), a group\nof fallen angels who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as\nthe Nephilim. As one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time preceding the\nflood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of\nmail, and women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and \npainting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of \nwitchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity; until\nat last he was, at the Lord's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and\nchained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Duduael (= Beth ?adudo), where he is to \nabide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe name Azazel means \"the rugged\" and can be derived to mean the \"mightiest mountain\". \nHe was the fallen angel most likely to take human form and is especially known as a \nseducer of both women and men. Goat associations also connect Azazel with Pan and we have\nlearned in the other thread about the Melek Taus connection between Pas/Pan, Azazel and \nTyphon. \n \nI think the BotNS connections of Azazel to Abaia and Typhon, mountains, witches, \nbeautification, war, wickedness and impurity and the Flood are striking. \n \nTo me, this illustrates the subtext of BotNS. It is like a Necker Cube or other optical \nillusions. Shifting one's perspective gives a different view of the same thing. Heroic, \nself-sacrificing Prometheus to the Greeks is the corrupt, fallen angel Azazel to Judeo-\nChristians. The helpful, skillful architect of the Commonwealth, Father Inire, is also a \ncorrupting influence and (in some manner) cousin to the all the evil presences on Urth \nand working with them, if also against them.\n \nI think BotNS was written from a Judeo-Christian perspective and this explains the need for \na purifying Flood. Doesn't matter if Father Inire is viewed as Prometheus or Azazel, he\nis pagan and needs to go, to make way for something better.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T14:22:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nYes, Prometheus is the perfect example to help me clarify what I am trying\nto get to.\nThanks.\n\nTo his Greek believers Prometheus is the one who created humanity, invented\narts and\nsciences for them and of course stole fire for them. For his favoring of\nhumanity, Zeus\nchained Prometheus to a rocky mountain (Gyoll? Urth? Mt. Nebo?) until\nHeracles freed him.\nPrometheus' sister-in-law, Pandora, (cognate to Eve and Meschianne) is\nsurely referenced\nin BotNS. Prometheus sounds like a pretty good guy but I'm not sure he can\nbe seen as\npurposefully preparing humanity for Christianity. Arethere religious\nscholars who see\nPrometheus as a knowing Christian agent?\n\n(FWIW, Heracles is the son of Zeus and Alcmene. She is Zeus' great\ngranddaughter. I hope\nit is clear why this is relevant to me).\n\n\nNow, from a different perspective it seems the Judeo-Christian version of\nPrometheus is\nAzazel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "According to the Book of Enoch, Azazel was a grigori (also known as\n\"watchers\"), a group\nof fallen angels who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of\nhybrids known as\nthe Nephilim. As one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time\npreceding the\nflood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives,\nshields, and coats of\nmail, and women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the\nhair, and\npainting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the\nsecrets of\nwitchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and\nimpurity; until\nat last he was, at the Lord's command, bound hand and foot by the\narchangel Raphael and\nchained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Duduael (= Beth ?adudo),\nwhere he is to\nabide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well...Azazel's role has been usurped for Christians at least by Lucifer,\nwho, if he's read as the Serpent, sort of more directly maps to Prometheus\nanyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But here the Hercules/Christ analogy breaks down pretty terribly. Christ\ndefeats Satan, the fallen Lucifer. Hercules rescues Prometheus. If Wolfe\nis using these concepts in New Sun, and it isn't clear to me he is, then\neither he is segregating Lucifer and Prometheus or they are both Abaia/the\nblack hole in the heart of the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name Azazel means \"the rugged\" and can be derived to mean the\n\"mightiest mountain\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know this is a common reading, but I dislike any reading of an angel's\nname that does not prioritize the \"-el\" suffix. Azazel is \"the might of\nGod.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was the fallen angel most likely to take human form and is especially\nknown as a\nseducer of both women and men. Goat associations also connect Azazel with\nPan and we have\nlearned in the other thread about the Melek Taus connection between\nPas/Pan, Azazel and\nTyphon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is fairly weak, to be honest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the BotNS connections of Azazel to Abaia and Typhon, mountains,\nwitches,\nbeautification, war, wickedness and impurity and the Flood are striking.\n\nWhere do you see Azazel in the Book of the New Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, this illustrates the subtext of BotNS. It is like a Necker Cube or\nother optical\nillusions. Shifting one's perspective gives a different view of the same\nthing. Heroic,\nself-sacrificing Prometheus to the Greeks is the corrupt, fallen angel\nAzazel to Judeo-\nChristians. The helpful, skillful architect of the Commonwealth, Father\nInire, is also a\ncorrupting influence and (in some manner) cousin to the all the evil\npresences on Urth\nand working with them, if also against them.\n\nI think BotNS was written from a Judeo-Christian perspective and this\nexplains the need for\na purifying Flood. Doesn't matter if Father Inire is viewed as Prometheus\nor Azazel, he\nis pagan and needs to go, to make way for something better.\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }