{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5666", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5666, "subject": "Where did Abaia go?", "messages": 76, "voices": 15, "first": "2010-07-18T06:02:13+00:00", "last": "2010-08-06T00:55:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T06:02:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \"I don't agree\") \nI mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an ocean-bound \ncreature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood.\n \nBut for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. \n \nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have the\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have (perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god \nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia is \nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin derived, Germanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater versions). \n\n \n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<477a411a0c9fa07e4c6337f8375a7694.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T07:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sticka you arm in a crack\nWhena you don't get it back\nThat's a moray.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \"I\ndon't agree\")\nI mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an\nocean-bound\ncreature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood.\n\nBut for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer\na more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia\nis the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water.\n\nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have\nthe\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have\n(perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually\nunder the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish\ngod\nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of\nAbaia is\nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin derived,\nGermanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater versions).\n\n\n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it)\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C42B25C.4030307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T07:50:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 1:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have the\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have (perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god\nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia is\nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin derived, Germanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater versions)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem with this is that Juturna and Baldanders are both \nsea-dwellers by the time of Sev's return. Juturna says her kind swim \nbetween the stars and supposedly Abaia's seed came from off-world as \nwell, so they would presumably have to cope with all kinds of salt \nlevels, pHs, alkalai content, etc.\n\nThe upheaval of Ushas' coming might result in very low fish stocks for a \nlong time, until the dispersed populations regroup and currents and \nthermoclines re-establish themselves in a stable fashion. Meanwhile, the \nhungry undines gotta eat something...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T11:30:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nIn my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \"I\ndon't agree\")\nI mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an\nocean-bound\ncreature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there are a couple of textual possibilities, actually. From\nEschatology and Genesis:\n\nFirst Demon: The continents themselves are old as raddled women, long since\nstripped of beauty and fertility. The New Sun comes--\n\n Autarch: I know!\n\n First Demon: --and he will send them crashing into the sea like foundered\nships.\n\n Second Demon: And from the sea lift new--glittering with gold, silver,\niron, and copper.\n\nSo Abaia could easy have been crushed by a foundered continent or mountain,\nor trapped on a new continent as it rises from the sea and then, assuming he\ncould survive the upheaval itself, collapsed under his own weight. I think\nthe latter is more probable, simply because we're told in the text that\nAbaia and his kind can't survive outside of water long (perhaps Baldanders\nis the reference, I can't recall) and we actually see Juturna dying in this\nmanner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer\na more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia\nis the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water.\n\nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have\nthe\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have\n(perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under\nthe\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god\nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia\nis\nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin derived,\nGermanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater versions).\n\n\n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it)\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C42FCF5.8040007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-18T13:09:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could \"Diuturna\" be pronounced \"Juturna\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nIn my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \"I don't agree\") \nI mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an ocean-bound \ncreature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood.\n \nBut for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. \n \nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have the\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have (perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god \nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia is \nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin derived, Germanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater versions). \n\n \n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C42FE36.7070203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-18T13:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<4C42FCF5.8040007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never mind---I suppose there is no point in that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nCould \"Diuturna\" be pronounced \"Juturna\"?\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \n\"I don't agree\") I mention an allegorical answer I think best for \nexplaining how an ocean-bound creature like Abaia could be destroyed \nby a flood.\n \nBut for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will \noffer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. \nAbaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. \nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We \nhave the\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We \nhave (perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually \nunder the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a \nfish god beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the \npresence of Abaia is the Lake/Shore people's town which is named \n\"Murene\". This Latin derived, Germanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater \nversions). \n \n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen \nit) \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your \ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80d8e4ad8fb05f10a62e9fa49e71a3c1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T13:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<4C42FCF5.8040007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are in fact alternate spellings.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could \"Diuturna\" be pronounced \"Juturna\"?\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \"I\ndon't agree\")\nI mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an\nocean-bound\ncreature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood.\n\nBut for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will\noffer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean.\nAbaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water.\n\nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We\nhave the\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have\n(perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually\nunder the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish\ngod\nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of\nAbaia is\nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin\nderived, Germanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater\nversions).\n\n\n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it)\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<86c0c48ff171d606043973304f5dcd6e.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T13:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<4C42FCF5.8040007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are in fact alternate spellings.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could \"Diuturna\" be pronounced \"Juturna\"?\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- \"I\ndon't agree\")\nI mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an\nocean-bound\ncreature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood.\n\nBut for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will\noffer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean.\nAbaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water.\n\nAbaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We\nhave the\nsimilarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have\n(perhaps\naspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually\nunder the\nwaters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish\ngod\nbeneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of\nAbaia is\nthe Lake/Shore people's town which is named \"Murene\". This Latin\nderived, Germanic\nword basically means \"moray eel\" (which does include freshwater\nversions).\n\n\n(sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it)\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C432947.2030208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-18T16:18:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<477a411a0c9fa07e4c6337f8375a7694.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/18/2010 02:04 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSticka you arm in a crack\nWhena you don't get it back\nThat's a moray.\nus\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Customs and rules\nOften not just for fools\nThat's a more'." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-18T17:01:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<4C432947.2030208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Putta you hand on a tool\nWhen you pull on a fool\nThat's a ouanquing.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/18/2010 02:04 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sticka you arm in a crack\nWhena you don't get it back\nThat's a moray.\nus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Customs and rules\nOften not just for fools\nThat's a more'.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T04:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: So Abaia could easy have been crushed by a foundered continent\nor mountain, or trapped on a new continent as it rises from the sea and then,\nassuming he could survive the upheaval itself, collapsed under his own weight.\nI think the latter is more probable, simply because we're told in the text that\nAbaia and his kind can't survive outside of water long (perhaps Baldanders\nis the reference, I can't recall) and we actually see Juturna dying in this\nmanner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, considering the \"waves of gravitation\" emitted by the onrushing New Sun\nthat could be the force which kills off the giant monsters. Or perhaps some\nnewly risen continent has mountain sized gelatinous masses on it baking in \nthe warm, golden radiance of Ushas.\n \nI still think the evidence of Abaia in Lake Diuturna is too compelling to \ncompletely ignore. Doesn't matter though. As a giant shape-shifting alien \nwho reproduces asexually and sexually (daughter-brides) the guy can easily be\nin two or many more places at once.\n \nTzadkiel explains his/her similar abilities to have multiple shapes, sizes and \nlocations with:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"the cells of our bodies shift, like those of certain sea creatures on your Urth,\nwhich can be pressed through a screen yet reunite\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe screen thing is a classic description of members the Sponge phylum which \nreproduce both sexually and via asexual budding. But perhaps Tzadkiel is \nreferring to some very large sea creatures on Urth also. I'm pretty sure \nwe get another view of pinched off, shape-shifting, human-sized agents in the \nShort Sun relationship between Seawrack and The Mother. \n\nI'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian allegory though.\nWe could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small enough piece\nof Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt water or\nagile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean that even\nin a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we still have\nsome minor demons which survive on to plague us. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C443A80.900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-19T11:44:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably, we must always be tested, even in a new creation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian allegory though.\nWe could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small enough piece\nof Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt water or\nagile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean that even\nin a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we still have\nsome minor demons which survive on to plague us. \t\t \t \t\t \n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<24c147c8bb7efe4bdf5cc8120277b02c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-19T11:59:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<4C443A80.900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What the hell otherwise is the point?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably, we must always be tested, even in a new creation.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian\nallegory though.\nWe could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small\nenough piece\nof Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt\nwater or\nagile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean\nthat even\nin a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we\nstill have\nsome minor demons which survive on to plague us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C445A6B.2080604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T14:00:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 11:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian allegory though.\nWe could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small enough piece\nof Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt water or\nagile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean that even\nin a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we still have\nsome minor demons which survive on to plague us. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or perhaps she survived through her gift of superhuman powers, similar \nto her brother, Severian?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C44A134.4030006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T19:02:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without followers, why would the Megatherians stay? Typhon surely would \nnot have remained when the entire human population was reduced \nto....what a few dozen? I'm not sure why it would be the case, but one \ninference from Typhon's conversation with Severian is that he was unable \nto leave Urth at the end.\n\n\"\"It was a period of great confusion as well. My astronomers had told me \nthat\nthis sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too slowly, in fact, for the \nchange\nto be noticeable in a human lifetime. They were wrong. The heat of the world\ndeclined by nearly two parts in a thousand over a few years, then \nstabilized.\nCrops failed, and there were famines and riots. *I should have left then*.\"\n\nIs there any evidence that the Megatherians could at last leave after \nthe New Sun came?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C44C83D.2080509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T21:48:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where did Abaia go?", "in_reply_to": "<4C44A134.4030006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/2010 2:02 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will\noffer a more\ntextual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean.\nAbaia is the\nname for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps\na flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Without followers, why would the Megatherians stay? Typhon surely would\nnot have remained when the entire human population was reduced\nto....what a few dozen? I'm not sure why it would be the case, but one\ninference from Typhon's conversation with Severian is that he was unable\nto leave Urth at the end.\n\n\"\"It was a period of great confusion as well. My astronomers had told me\nthat\nthis sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too slowly, in fact, for the\nchange\nto be noticeable in a human lifetime. They were wrong. The heat of the\nworld\ndeclined by nearly two parts in a thousand over a few years, then\nstabilized.\nCrops failed, and there were famines and riots. *I should have left then*.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon goes on to explain that his trusted ship commanders fled, leaving \nhim without means of egress. He apparently did not believe in the \npersonal escape craft, or perhaps was too proud to leave with a force \ntoo small to ensure him a return to power at his destination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any evidence that the Megatherians could at last leave after\nthe New Sun came?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The undines claim to swim between the stars, presumably they could bear \nsome part of their masters with them, the parts small enough and manlike \nenough to be able to have \"lives\" recorded...perhaps it's them that are \nthe Hierogrammates counterparts, or even literally their parts, exiled \nfrom the larger bodies like the little Tzadkerbell at the Brook Madregot.\n\nAnyway, if they arrived as beans, presumably star-swimming undines could \ncarry them away as beans, they might use their mighty powers of mind to \ncommand fliers to descend and take their spawn to nearby planets where \nfurther ships await..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EE679.4040004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:00:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna,the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<4C42FCF5.8040007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/2010 8:09 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nCould \"Diuturna\" be pronounced \"Juturna\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's more than likely Abaia's would see to it that his seed survived in \nJuturna, if such a thing were possible, and there are some really \noff-putting reproductive strategies among the Abyssal fishes that might \nsuit even if conventional conjugation were not suitable.\n\nBut let's look at Juturna's name. She's a bit of a Jotun, true, and \nJuturna was a Roman goddess of fountains who saved her brother Turnus, \nat least for a bit.\n\nNow, who else may travel the Corridors of Time and is associated with \nfountain? And why would an otherwise loyal concubine of Abaia with no \nprospects of returning to the land seek to help some land-lubbing foundling?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EE679.4040004@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's more than likely Abaia's would see to it that his seed survived in \nJuturna, if such a thing were possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But let's look at Juturna's name. She's a bit of a Jotun, true, and \nJuturna was a Roman goddess of fountains who saved her brother Turnus, \nat least for a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, who else may travel the Corridors of Time and is associated with \nfountain? And why would an otherwise loyal concubine of Abaia with no \nprospects of returning to the land seek to help some land-lubbing foundling?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, many major power players including Father Inire, The Old Autarch and \nThe Cumaean (via Hildegren) explicitly state that their strategy involves\nplaying both sides so as to benefit no matter who wins. Why not Abaia?\n \nThe fountain connection is nice but for me the strongest evidence for a\nfamily connection between Severian and Juturna is the ridiculous, \napparently unfulfillable, sexual ardor they share for each other. Sounds\nlike the incestuous Severian family curse in action. Seems even stronger\nthan what Severian and (his cousin?) Agia feel, so maybe \"sister\" is a\ngood assessment.\n \nThis family curse is shared by all the family pantheons of pagan gods. Who \ndid they have (initially) to mate with but each other? Adam and Eve's kids\nfaced a similar problem (as perhaps did Adam and Eve- clones via rib?).\n \nIn my interpretation, the lust between Severian and Juturna is gone at their\nmeeting on Ushas because the family curse of incest has been broken by the \ncoming of the New Sun as the pagan curse on Earth was broken by the Flood \nand the rise of Judeo-Christianity with its immaculate conception and virgin\nbirth. But yes, surely Juturna carries some potential for demon-spawn within\nherself.\n\nStill, when you say \"missing\" sister I have to think of Severian's absent twin, \nSevera. I have a difficult time tracing a Juturna lifestory which allows for \nthat identity switch. Actually, among all the candidates for Severa, I find \nonly one has the potential for Severa as a real name- Jolenta, which could be\nonly her stage name.\n \nWe expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what Jolenta\nwas doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when \nSeverian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the \"newly hatched chick\"\nthing. Borski thinks the \"gold\" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood.\n \nThere is a lot of dialog to the contrary but I must wonder whether Jolenta\nwas the real purpose for Severian's meeting with the witches in the Stone Town\n...trying to save the life of one of their own, via Severian's power. Perhaps \nsimilar to Severian's \"accidental\" resurrection of Dorcas from the Lake of Birds. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:10:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nWe expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what\nJolenta\nwas doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when\nSeverian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the \"newly hatched\nchick\"\nthing. Borski thinks the \"gold\" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, this is just the sort of thing that gets my goat.\n\nSeverian is dark-haired. So is Catherine. Agia and Agilus are\nbrown-haired. Dorcas is a blonde.\n\nSo now hair of any color other than red is evidence of relationship to\nSeverian!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with\nHotmail.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4F2848.2080609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:41:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/27/2010 12:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWe expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what Jolenta\nwas doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when\nSeverian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the \"newly hatched chick\"\nthing. Borski thinks the \"gold\" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Objection! Why should the carpet match the drapes?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4F28A0.7030107@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:42:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/27/2010 12:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWe expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what Jolenta\nwas doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when\nSeverian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the \"newly hatched chick\"\nthing. Borski thinks the \"gold\" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OBJECTION TWO: given what \"destriers\" are, for all we know, New Sun \n\"chicks\" are scaly reptilian horrors, or fourteen-legged Space Mollusks, \nor...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<873171.58971.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T19:13:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<4C4F2848.2080609@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Thornton \n\nOn 07/27/2010 12:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what \nJolenta\nwas doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when\nSeverian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the \"newly hatched \nchick\"\nthing. Borski thinks the \"gold\" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nObjection! Why should the carpet match the drapes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Cumaean refers to Jolenta as \"big red gold\" in contrast to Dorcas, \"little \npale-hair\" (CotC, Ch. XXX). It hadn't occurred to me till now that her mention \nof two colors, with no hyphen, might refer to the cuffs not matching the \ncollars.\n\nNewly hatched chicks may be various colors.\n\nhttp://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=571&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=newly+hatched+chicks\n\n\nI now return you to your contemplation of these matters.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T19:13:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<873171.58971.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JW-\nSee, this is just the sort of thing that gets my goat.\nSeverian is dark-haired. So is Catherine. Agia and Agilus are\nbrown-haired. Dorcas is a blonde.\nSo now hair of any color other than red is evidence of relationship to\nSeverian!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, that is so unfair! heh. Actually red hair would be in the mix \nalso, (remembering that Fechin is Father Inire). \n \nSorry about the goat, btw. My theory holds together pretty well for me \nbut I understand it will be worthless for many others. \n \nHair color must surely match and justify the geneology and I think it \nworks like this:\n \nBlonde Dorcas and her red haired husband have blonde Ouen as a son. Ouen \nand dark haired Catherine have twins, dark haired Severian and blonde \nSevera (Jolenta).\n \nDark haired Cyriaca and her red haired \"uncle\" have twins, Agia and \nAgilus. They have not just brown but reddish brown, \"chestnut\" hair.\n \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_hair\n \n \n .\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T19:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nHair color must surely match and justify the geneology and I think it\nworks like this:\n\nBlonde Dorcas and her red haired husband have blonde Ouen as a son. Ouen\nand dark haired Catherine have twins, dark haired Severian and blonde\nSevera (Jolenta).\n\nDark haired Cyriaca and her red haired \"uncle\" have twins, Agia and\nAgilus. They have not just brown but reddish brown, \"chestnut\" hair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That works just fine. I dunno about Cyriaca being the mother of Agia and\nAgilus but I have no strong feelings about it either way.\n\nMy issue is that in reverse, hair of any color can fit into the Severian\nfamily tree. And so we see Borski saying that Baldanders' overgrown child\n(and possible catamite), who has gold hair, is Severian's biological child.\nBecause he has gold hair! And gold represents the sun!\n\nBut if he had dark hair, he'd look like Severian, and so also could be\nargued to be Severian's kid.\n\nAnd if he had pale blonde hair, he'd look like Dorcas.\n\nAnd with \"chestnut\" hair, he might be related to Agia and Agilus--maybe even\nbe their incest-spawn--and therefore Severian.\n\nRed hair would be proof of an Inire connection, as you note.\n\nAt some point, every detail becomes a prop for one wild theory or another,\nand the loop closes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_hair\n\n\n .\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T19:52:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins- At some point, every detail becomes a prop for one wild theory or another-" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nWell, I certainly agree that Borski takes one theme, like haircolor or onomastics and\nruns with it and stretches it beyond all credulity. The blonde catamite is a perfect \nexample. I forget his explanation...Baldanders stole Dorcas DNA during their travels and \nused that to grow it, or something like that. Kinda silly.\n \nI would not be comfortable entertaining such speculation unless two or three themes \nconverge to the same conclusion. If Severian felt sexually attracted to the catamite\nand/or the catamite was decorated with some sort of cloisonne and/or if the catamite \nwere a twin or named Ouen, etc... only then could I consider the possibility it was\nrelated to Severian. Gold hair by itself just isn't enough. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<61a6d1e9df2d6016f61550050993f8d7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T20:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nIt's more than likely Abaia's would see to it that his seed survived in\nJuturna, if such a thing were possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But let's look at Juturna's name. She's a bit of a Jotun, true, and\nJuturna was a Roman goddess of fountains who saved her brother Turnus,\nat least for a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, who else may travel the Corridors of Time and is associated with\nfountain? And why would an otherwise loyal concubine of Abaia with no\nprospects of returning to the land seek to help some land-lubbing\nfoundling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, many major power players including Father Inire, The Old Autarch and\nThe Cumaean (via Hildegren) explicitly state that their strategy involves\nplaying both sides so as to benefit no matter who wins. Why not Abaia?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. A family connection would be a good motivation to become a double\nagent, and equally good for convincing the other side that you have become\na sincere double agent when you are not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fountain connection is nice but for me the strongest evidence for a\nfamily connection between Severian and Juturna is the ridiculous,\napparently unfulfillable, sexual ardor they share for each other. Sounds\nlike the incestuous Severian family curse in action. Seems even stronger\nthan what Severian and (his cousin?) Agia feel, so maybe \"sister\" is a\ngood assessment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it possible that Severian's warped upbringing has left him unable to\neasily distinguish between different kinds of attraction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, when you say \"missing\" sister I have to think of Severian's absent\ntwin,\nSevera. I have a difficult time tracing a Juturna lifestory which allows\nfor\nthat identity switch. Actually, among all the candidates for Severa, I\nfind\nonly one has the potential for Severa as a real name- Jolenta, which could\nbe\nonly her stage name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't is customary for children stolen by fairies or selkies or the\nErlkoenig to be given a new name as well? Severa the apprentice witch\ncould have been snatched any time she went swimming in Gyoll or had been\nleft unattended for a few moments near the water.\n\nAnd Juturna/Severa could have any color hair under the alage." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4F40B3.8030103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T20:25:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<873171.58971.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Cumaean refers to Jolenta as \"big red gold\" in contrast to Dorcas, \"little\npale-hair\" (CotC, Ch. XXX). It hadn't occurred to me till now that her mention\nof two colors, with no hyphen, might refer to the cuffs not matching the\ncollars.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk also has a red-gold beard.\n\n\"At his washstand upstairs, he stropped the big, bone-handled razor that \nhad waited hi his mother's bureau until he was old\nenough to shave, lathered his face, and scraped away his reddish-blond \nbeard.\"\nNightside IX\n\nIf Silk is a clone of Typhon, then Typhon's \"blonde\" hair was actually \n\"strawberry-blonde\".\n\nI *do* think hair color is a family signature, although I don't know \nexactly how it all fits together.\n\nBut I still believe that red hair and reddish blonde hair is intended to \nconnect someone to the family of Typhon.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T20:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<4C4F40B3.8030103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:25 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nBut I still believe that red hair and reddish blonde hair is intended to\nconnect someone to the family of Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's probably true in Long/Short.\n\nHowever, I very much doubt that Typhon was accorded this much thought\nwhen planning and writing tBotNS. Long/Short are an afterthought (as\nis Urth), and Typhon in NS is little more than a chance encounter\n(albeit one with important symbolic value)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<723270153eb5d32ad94952b798e0f493.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T20:49:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<4C4F40B3.8030103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I *do* think hair color is a family signature, although I don't know\nexactly how it all fits together." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Generally darker hair dominates over lighter, though hair can appear as\nlighter colors at longer lengths and with increasing exposure to the\nelements. Red hair counts as a form of blonde in this way. In general,\ncolor also dominates darker over lighter. Skin's a mix." } ] }, { "message_id": "<61e472affa54594d0c190c04f793dcc6.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T20:58:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<723270153eb5d32ad94952b798e0f493.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I *do* think hair color is a family signature, although I don't know\nexactly how it all fits together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Generally darker hair dominates over lighter, though hair can appear as\nlighter colors at longer lengths and with increasing exposure to the\nelements. Red hair counts as a form of blonde in this way. In general,\ncolor also dominates darker over lighter. Skin's a mix." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's \"eye color\" in the middle. Continents' influence aide, Mendelian\ngenetics has blue eyed parents breeding true, and blonde haired parents as\nwell. Dark haired parents can have kids of light or dark hair, but if two\nlighter haired people have a dark haired kid, there's probably a dark\nhaired man getting away with something.\n\nNone of this is cut and dried, but fun to speculate. For those who cut\nBiology class:\n\nhttp://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4F6219.3060000@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T22:47:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I still believe that red hair and reddish blonde hair is intended to\nconnect someone to the family of Typhon.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's probably true in Long/Short.\n\nHowever, I very much doubt that Typhon was accorded this much thought\nwhen planning and writing tBotNS. Long/Short are an afterthought (as\nis Urth), and Typhon in NS is little more than a chance encounter\n(albeit one with important symbolic value).\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe apparently included an entire backstory to Typhon, to his \nparents, and to a couple of his children in the story of Frog and Fish. \nSo I think he must have given it more thought than that.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-28T11:38:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<4C4F6219.3060000@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Isn't is customary for children stolen by fairies or selkies or the\nErlkoenig to be given a new name as well? Severa the apprentice witch\ncould have been snatched any time she went swimming in Gyoll or had been\nleft unattended for a few moments near the water.\nAnd Juturna/Severa could have any color hair under the alage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy assumption was that, like Idas, all the undines have white/albino hair. The green\nalgae color wouldn't work so well atop a brunette. \n \nI put a lot of stock in the undines' claim to be daughter-brides of Abaia. The\nTzadkiel/sponge sexual/asexual reproduction model works for me.\n \nI'm not sure if that can fit in with this scenario of Severian's twin being dragged\nunderwater as a child to be transformed into an undine. Some sort of Corn Maiden?\nBut if that's what happened I can certainly see her name being changed to match the\nlake.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C507D0B.4030709@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-28T18:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/28/2010 6:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Isn't is customary for children stolen by fairies or selkies or the\nErlkoenig to be given a new name as well? Severa the apprentice witch\ncould have been snatched any time she went swimming in Gyoll or had been\nleft unattended for a few moments near the water.\nAnd Juturna/Severa could have any color hair under the alage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My assumption was that, like Idas, all the undines have white/albino hair. The green\nalgae color wouldn't work so well atop a brunette." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The BOTNS seems to disagree with you; there is a green megatherium at \nthe Well of Orchids, and we have green sloths today who get their color \nfrom algae growing on/in their pelts which are otherwise various colors:\n\n\thttp://deoxy.org/gaia/3tsloth.htm\n\nRL people have also been known to get algae growing on their neglected \ndreadlocks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I put a lot of stock in the undines' claim to be daughter-brides of Abaia. The\nTzadkiel/sponge sexual/asexual reproduction model works for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think incest with Abaia the undine man is more likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if that can fit in with this scenario of Severian's twin being dragged\nunderwater as a child to be transformed into an undine. Some sort of Corn Maiden?\nBut if that's what happened I can certainly see her name being changed to match the\nlake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily transformed into an undine, but perhaps surviving as \nlong as she has because of undine ancestry. There could be a rather \nDickensian chain of \"chance\" relations from a Abaia-bride seducing a \nNessusite man, giving birth to the child who grew up to marry Dorcas and \nbegat Ouen, who begat twins on Katherine that grew to become Severian \nand Juturna.\n\nUndines claim to be able to entertain air-breathers the way the mermaids \nrepresent to Latro. Their association with algae like the Green Man \nsuggests a connection, and that plus the weird alien science may provide \nsome kind of life-support mush that they can supply. If this mush \nsomehow saturates the fetus in vivo, then it explains the Green Man \ncoming from some time in Ushas' future where the repentant undines have \nre-united with the air-breathers. Having built-in oxygen and nutirent \nsupport would be really handy for people who travel among the stars or \nbetween eras of catastrophic change. The universe's like a box of \nchocolates, after all." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-28T19:36:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins- At some point, every detail becomes a prop for one wild theory or another-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I certainly agree that Borski takes one theme, like haircolor or onomastics and\nruns with it and stretches it beyond all credulity. The blonde catamite is a perfect \nexample. I forget his explanation...Baldanders stole Dorcas DNA during their travels and \nused that to grow it, or something like that. Kinda silly.\n\nI would not be comfortable entertaining such speculation unless two or three themes \nconverge to the same conclusion. If Severian felt sexually attracted to the catamite\nand/or the catamite was decorated with some sort of cloisonne and/or if the catamite \nwere a twin or named Ouen, etc... only then could I consider the possibility it was\nrelated to Severian. Gold hair by itself just isn't enough. \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-28T20:28:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nis it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose,\nbe wrong..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C50CF16.9070805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T00:45:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you account for the facial appearance of Agia/Agilus? I believe \nSeverian's description pegs them as Southerners, perhaps as related to \nautochthons (i.e., Indians or what we would call Hispanics): long eyes, \nflat cheeks, chestnut hair. Something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JW-\nSee, this is just the sort of thing that gets my goat.\nSeverian is dark-haired. So is Catherine. Agia and Agilus are\nbrown-haired. Dorcas is a blonde.\nSo now hair of any color other than red is evidence of relationship to\nSeverian!\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nOh, that is so unfair! heh. Actually red hair would be in the mix \nalso, (remembering that Fechin is Father Inire). \n \nSorry about the goat, btw. My theory holds together pretty well for me \nbut I understand it will be worthless for many others. \n \nHair color must surely match and justify the geneology and I think it \nworks like this:\n \nBlonde Dorcas and her red haired husband have blonde Ouen as a son. Ouen \nand dark haired Catherine have twins, dark haired Severian and blonde \nSevera (Jolenta).\n \nDark haired Cyriaca and her red haired \"uncle\" have twins, Agia and \nAgilus. They have not just brown but reddish brown, \"chestnut\" hair.\n \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_hair\n \n \n .\n \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<924139.11675.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T03:44:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nOn Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose,\nbe wrong..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the boy is a \ncatamite. At least so far.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T03:55:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<924139.11675.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockton- How do you account for the facial appearance of Agia/Agilus? I believe \nSeverian's description pegs them as Southerners, perhaps as related to \nautochthons (i.e., Indians or what we would call Hispanics): long eyes, \nflat cheeks, chestnut hair. Something like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nA good question. First, I'd say Southerners are mostly, like Hallvard, tall, pale skinned\nand blonde, from the cold parts of The Commonwealth. To the north of Nessus are the \nIndian-looking autochthon people. Quite a few around the area of Thrax, where Agia and\nAgilus might have roots, if their mother is Cyriaca.\n \nAgia is described as having a short nose, elongated brown eyes and wide cheekbones. Agilus\nis described as having flat cheeks. In Thrax, when Cyriaca is describing Severian's masked\nface she mentions high cheekbones and flat cheeks. It seems like there could be a family\nresemblance though not a strong one.\n \nWhen Severian first meets Agia she is wearing a pavonine brocade gown. I have recently \nlearned \"pavonine\" means peacock-like. I would not be quick to associate this with \nthe fallen peacock angel, Prometheus-cognate demon Azazel except that Agia has a few \nthings which associate her with demonic stuff...she mentions lamia jewelry, scratches a\njurupari design, carries the warlock sword and uses a claw weapon similar to the Jungle\nSorcerers.\n \nI think Agia's other two weapons might link her to Thrax and Cyriaca. She has the crooked\ndagger at Casdoe's house. And she mentions a \"misericorde\" from her shop which is a slim\nblade used to perform battlefield mercy killings on mortally wounded warriors. This would\nbe a likely item to be found in a shop run by a former Pelerine.\n \n \nFor those interested- The Jurupari (or Yuripari) was a monkey-like demon of the Tupi Indians\na southern, Atlantic coast tribe of S. America. He is known as the enforcer of a forbidden\nfruit taboo and swallowed some child transgressors whole, to be vomited up later. Jurupari\nshares its name with a cichlid family member, also called Demon Fish. This family is known for\nhatching and brooding and protecting their babies in their mouths, to be spit out later when\nsafety returns. I find associations with Inire, Abaia and The Mother on Blue to be possible. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FA6C6ECAA124B32AB901D5F368B2A01@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-29T08:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n\tthe Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "<924139.11675.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose,\nbe wrong..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the \nboy is a\ncatamite. At least so far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So who/what is he? The only other possibility I can think of is that he is \nBaldander's son. I have tended to assume that Baldanders started out as a \nnormal man until he started modifying himself, but we also know that the \nmodifications have extreme effects such as mental instability evinced as \nmoodiness and violent rages. So the fact that the child appears to be \nretarded doesn't necessarily mean anything. Perhaps Baldanders has started \nthe modifications earlier on his son/replacement, or perhaps Baldanders \nstarted like this too.\n\nOn the other hand, Talos seems to go wandering the world after Baldanders \ntakes up an aquatic lifestyle - if the child is Baldanders' one might expect \nhim to stay and look after it. But it may well be that the local villagers \nburned the castle down and disposed of everything there. (Not for the first \ntime.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T09:18:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n\tthe \tMissing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "<8FA6C6ECAA124B32AB901D5F368B2A01@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian uses the word \"catamite\" and so something must suggest a sexual\nelement to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son (or\nhis Number Five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 4:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Jerry Friedman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n\n On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose,\nbe wrong..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the\nboy is a\ncatamite. At least so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So who/what is he? The only other possibility I can think of is that he is\nBaldander's son. I have tended to assume that Baldanders started out as a\nnormal man until he started modifying himself, but we also know that the\nmodifications have extreme effects such as mental instability evinced as\nmoodiness and violent rages. So the fact that the child appears to be\nretarded doesn't necessarily mean anything. Perhaps Baldanders has started\nthe modifications earlier on his son/replacement, or perhaps Baldanders\nstarted like this too.\n\nOn the other hand, Talos seems to go wandering the world after Baldanders\ntakes up an aquatic lifestyle - if the child is Baldanders' one might expect\nhim to stay and look after it. But it may well be that the local villagers\nburned the castle down and disposed of everything there. (Not for the first\ntime.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T13:01:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n the Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith- Severian uses the word \"catamite\" and so something must suggest a sexual\nelement to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son (or\nhis Number Five)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing is the word\n\"catamite\" is used. Severian is not a real person who might have meaningless random \nmusings. This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been crafted with\na purpose. As Jack suggests, we are compelled, purposefully, by the author, to think of\npedophilia because that word is used.\n\nNow if that big baby (it is a very large baby I think, not a retarded older child) had \nbeen found with a bottle and rattle in a giant crib, then perhaps we could doubt that \nBaldanders had sexual intentions. But this baby is adorned with fancy accoutrements and\nis chained to Baldanders' bed, which itself is decked out like a sybaritic 70's love nest.\nSeverian may have doubts about the baby's catamite status, but we cannot. \n \nOther parts of the story suggest Severian is in a constant state of denial when it comes \nto pedophilia. We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part \nof a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but Gene Wolfe didn't. \nThe Pelerines mention toleration of it, but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for \nsome reason.\n \n \nPedophilia nicely conjoins with the ambience Wolfe builds regarding Baldanders' castle. \nThe place is full of monstrosties, carved up human bodies experimented on and used for \nspare parts. The guy we had been led to believe was a dull, hulking servant has his evil\nmasterhood graphically revealed (both Severian and we had trouble earlier believing that\nBaldanders was master of Dr.Talos, though the both assert it). For me the catamite simply\nreinforces Baldanders' monstrous persona. His real child is Dr. Talos.\n \n-\n \nI find the introduction of a rather fantastic, or unpleasantly outrageous concept then \nclouding it with doubt to be a recurring trope in Gene Wolfe's work. I think the best\nexample is the suggestion that VRT has Dr. Marsch being killed and replaced by an abo. \nPerhaps an abo who forgets his own true identity. There are many seeds of doubt which are\nplanted in the story to allow denial that this is what happened. Enough to spark lively \ndebate in past years on this forum. But then it was discovered that Gene Wolfe, in a rare\ndeparture from reticence, openly acknowledges that the replacement of Dr. Marsch happened,\nin one of his interviews." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to understand Wolfe's\nwork. Surely sometimes a flying building turns out to be simply a tent cathedral playing hot \nairballoon. But also often, a more fantastic interpretation is the best, auctorially intended \none.At the least we are meant to consider fantastic explanations on an equal par with mundane \nones. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C517C65.4040804@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T13:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n the Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "<8FA6C6ECAA124B32AB901D5F368B2A01@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/29/2010 03:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nl So the fact that the child appears to be retarded doesn't \nnecessarily mean anything. Perhaps Baldanders has started the \nmodifications earlier on his son/replacement, or perhaps Baldanders \nstarted like this too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't Severian think Baldanders is simple for a while?\n\nAlso: does \"fuel\" count as \"catamite\"? My reading of the child is that \nhe's not there for Baldanders' *sexual* satisfaction, but because \nBaldanders extends his youth by chowing down on his young self-clones' \n(if that's\n what they are) pineal glands, or slowly drinking their blood, or \nsomething. Maybe \"battery\" or \"spare parts\" is more accurate than \"fuel.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C519076.5060608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T14:30:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n the Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (29-07-2010 14:01):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to\nunderstand Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not exclusive to Wolfe's work. In fact, it only works in very specific\ncircumstances. Which may be often met, but are very specific nonetheless." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51956B.8000801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T14:51:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n the Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "<4C519076.5060608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to\nunderstand Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not exclusive to Wolfe's work. In fact, it only works in very \nspecific\ncircumstances. Which may be often met, but are very specific nonetheless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So true. There are few things more annoying (although many as annoying) \nthan a debater who invokes Occam's Razor and then sits back and twiddles \nhis fingers-- \"Problem solved\". Occam's Razor says that entities may not \nbe multiplied beyond necessity. \"Beyond Necessity\" is a term that must \nbe qualified, especially in a Lupine story.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C519A7D.3020308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T15:13:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany \nthem\" is a strong clue. This is an ethnic flag of some kind, not a \nfamily one.\n\nI'm not sure where I got \"southern\" from---I didn't mean THAT far \nsouth---but perhaps you're right, and the north is where that heritage \npersists.\n\nI agree that Agia seems a sorceress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockton- How do you account for the facial appearance of Agia/Agilus? I believe \nSeverian's description pegs them as Southerners, perhaps as related to \nautochthons (i.e., Indians or what we would call Hispanics): long eyes, \nflat cheeks, chestnut hair. Something like that.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nA good question. First, I'd say Southerners are mostly, like Hallvard, tall, pale skinned\nand blonde, from the cold parts of The Commonwealth. To the north of Nessus are the \nIndian-looking autochthon people. Quite a few around the area of Thrax, where Agia and\nAgilus might have roots, if their mother is Cyriaca.\n \nAgia is described as having a short nose, elongated brown eyes and wide cheekbones. Agilus\nis described as having flat cheeks. In Thrax, when Cyriaca is describing Severian's masked\nface she mentions high cheekbones and flat cheeks. It seems like there could be a family\nresemblance though not a strong one.\n \nWhen Severian first meets Agia she is wearing a pavonine brocade gown. I have recently \nlearned \"pavonine\" means peacock-like. I would not be quick to associate this with \nthe fallen peacock angel, Prometheus-cognate demon Azazel except that Agia has a few \nthings which associate her with demonic stuff...she mentions lamia jewelry, scratches a\njurupari design, carries the warlock sword and uses a claw weapon similar to the Jungle\nSorcerers.\n \nI think Agia's other two weapons might link her to Thrax and Cyriaca. She has the crooked\ndagger at Casdoe's house. And she mentions a \"misericorde\" from her shop which is a slim\nblade used to perform battlefield mercy killings on mortally wounded warriors. This would\nbe a likely item to be found in a shop run by a former Pelerine.\n \n \nFor those interested- The Jurupari (or Yuripari) was a monkey-like demon of the Tupi Indians\na southern, Atlantic coast tribe of S. America. He is known as the enforcer of a forbidden\nfruit taboo and swallowed some child transgressors whole, to be vomited up later. Jurupari\nshares its name with a cichlid family member, also called Demon Fish. This family is known for\nhatching and brooding and protecting their babies in their mouths, to be spit out later when\nsafety returns. I find associations with Inire, Abaia and The Mother on Blue to be possible. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53885.77566.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T15:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n\tthe Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nJack Smith- Severian uses the word \"catamite\" and so something must suggest a \nsexual\nelement to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son (or\nhis Number Five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing is the \nword\n\"catamite\" is used. Severian is not a real person who might have meaningless \nrandom \n\nmusings. This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been crafted \nwith\na purpose. As Jack suggests, we are compelled, purposefully, by the author, to \nthink of\npedophilia because that word is used." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now if that big baby (it is a very large baby I think, not a retarded older \nchild) had \n\nbeen found with a bottle and rattle in a giant crib, then perhaps we could doubt \nthat \n\nBaldanders had sexual intentions. But this baby is adorned with fancy \naccoutrements and\nis chained to Baldanders' bed, which itself is decked out like a sybaritic 70's \nlove nest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still agreeing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian may have doubts about the baby's catamite status, but we cannot. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course we can.\n\nWhat Severian says is, \"The catamite beneath (if catamite he was)...\" and \"Large \nthough he [the boy] was, I have never been able to believe that Baldanders \npracticed pederasty as that term is usually understood, though it may well be \nthat he had hoped to do so when the boy grew larger still.\"\n\nSo there we have it. Severian thinks the boy isn't a catamite yet but may well \nbe intended for that purpose. The reason for his doubt may be that the boy is \nstill too small (or too immature?).\n\nI cannot imagine why we should feel more sure that any part of this is right or \nwrong than Severian does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other parts of the story suggest Severian is in a constant state of denial when \nit comes \n\nto pedophilia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not constant. He does discuss it in reference to the young blood donor as well \nas here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part \nof a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but Gene \nWolfe didn't. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Pelerines mention toleration of it," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. Ava says, \"'...some befriend children left homeless by the \nstruggle.'\"\n\n\"Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that.'\"\n\n\"'We do not object--most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly less \nnatural.'\"\n\nShe may mean that they don't object when people take care of homeless children \nto sexually exploit them, or she may be referring to other \"unnatural\" practices \nbut not that. I doubt very much she means the Pelerines tolerate pedophilia \nwhen the children have other possibilities. (To the extent that objecting to \nanything would do them any good. Whatever the religion of Severian's time is \nlike, we hear little or nothing of its moral doctrines or the idea that anyone \nmight follow them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot of people don't bring it up often. However, as I said before, I agree \nwith you that it's striking that Severian doesn't mention it in reference to the \napprentices' lives in the Matachin Tower. (As many here have probably found \nout, the name Matachin can suggest homosexuality, though not pedophilia. \n.)\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find the introduction of a rather fantastic, or unpleasantly outrageous \nconcept then \n\nclouding it with doubt to be a recurring trope in Gene Wolfe's work. I think \nthe best\nexample is the suggestion that VRT has Dr. Marsch being killed and replaced by \nan abo. \n\nPerhaps an abo who forgets his own true identity. There are many seeds of doubt \nwhich are\nplanted in the story to allow denial that this is what happened. Enough to \nspark lively \n\ndebate in past years on this forum. But then it was discovered that Gene Wolfe, \nin a rare\ndeparture from reticence, openly acknowledges that the replacement of Dr. \nMarsch happened,\nin one of his interviews.\n\nFrom this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to \nunderstand Wolfe's\nwork. Surely sometimes a flying building turns out to be simply a tent \ncathedral playing hot \n\nairballoon. But also often, a more fantastic interpretation is the best, \nauctorially intended \n\none.At the least we are meant to consider fantastic explanations on an equal \npar with mundane \n\nones. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was wrong about \"V. R. T.\" (though maybe not on this forum), but I think I was \npreferring the more elaborate explanation and Occam's Razor would have led me to \nthe solution Wolfe gave.\n\nNo doubt you're right in general that we should consider fantastic explanations, \nbut I don't see how it applies to the boy in Baldanders's castle.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T15:57:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n\tthe \tMissing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "<53885.77566.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the link to the Mattachine Society--has some good info even if\nhomosexuality is not the issue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Jerry Friedman\nwrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jack Smith- Severian uses the word \"catamite\" and so something must\nsuggest a\nsexual\nelement to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son\n(or\nhis Number Five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing\nis the\nword\n\"catamite\" is used. Severian is not a real person who might have\nmeaningless\nrandom\n\nmusings. This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been\ncrafted\nwith\na purpose. As Jack suggests, we are compelled, purposefully, by the\nauthor, to\nthink of\npedophilia because that word is used." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now if that big baby (it is a very large baby I think, not a retarded\nolder\nchild) had\n\nbeen found with a bottle and rattle in a giant crib, then perhaps we could\ndoubt\nthat\n\nBaldanders had sexual intentions. But this baby is adorned with fancy\naccoutrements and\nis chained to Baldanders' bed, which itself is decked out like a sybaritic\n70's\nlove nest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still agreeing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian may have doubts about the baby's catamite status, but we cannot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course we can.\n\nWhat Severian says is, \"The catamite beneath (if catamite he was)...\" and\n\"Large\nthough he [the boy] was, I have never been able to believe that Baldanders\npracticed pederasty as that term is usually understood, though it may well\nbe\nthat he had hoped to do so when the boy grew larger still.\"\n\nSo there we have it. Severian thinks the boy isn't a catamite yet but may\nwell\nbe intended for that purpose. The reason for his doubt may be that the boy\nis\nstill too small (or too immature?).\n\nI cannot imagine why we should feel more sure that any part of this is\nright or\nwrong than Severian does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Other parts of the story suggest Severian is in a constant state of\ndenial when\nit comes\n\nto pedophilia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not constant. He does discuss it in reference to the young blood donor as\nwell\nas here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part\nof a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but\nGene\nWolfe didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Pelerines mention toleration of it," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly. Ava says, \"'...some befriend children left homeless by the\nstruggle.'\"\n\n\"Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that.'\"\n\n\"'We do not object--most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly\nless\nnatural.'\"\n\nShe may mean that they don't object when people take care of homeless\nchildren\nto sexually exploit them, or she may be referring to other \"unnatural\"\npractices\nbut not that. I doubt very much she means the Pelerines tolerate\npedophilia\nwhen the children have other possibilities. (To the extent that objecting\nto\nanything would do them any good. Whatever the religion of Severian's time\nis\nlike, we hear little or nothing of its moral doctrines or the idea that\nanyone\nmight follow them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A lot of people don't bring it up often. However, as I said before, I\nagree\nwith you that it's striking that Severian doesn't mention it in reference\nto the\napprentices' lives in the Matachin Tower. (As many here have probably\nfound\nout, the name Matachin can suggest homosexuality, though not pedophilia.\n.)\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find the introduction of a rather fantastic, or unpleasantly outrageous\nconcept then\n\nclouding it with doubt to be a recurring trope in Gene Wolfe's work. I\nthink\nthe best\nexample is the suggestion that VRT has Dr. Marsch being killed and\nreplaced by\nan abo.\n\nPerhaps an abo who forgets his own true identity. There are many seeds of\ndoubt\nwhich are\nplanted in the story to allow denial that this is what happened. Enough\nto\nspark lively\n\ndebate in past years on this forum. But then it was discovered that Gene\nWolfe,\nin a rare\ndeparture from reticence, openly acknowledges that the replacement of Dr.\nMarsch happened,\nin one of his interviews.\n\nFrom this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to\nunderstand Wolfe's\nwork. Surely sometimes a flying building turns out to be simply a tent\ncathedral playing hot\n\nairballoon. But also often, a more fantastic interpretation is the best,\nauctorially intended\n\none.At the least we are meant to consider fantastic explanations on an\nequal\npar with mundane\n\nones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was wrong about \"V. R. T.\" (though maybe not on this forum), but I think\nI was\npreferring the more elaborate explanation and Occam's Razor would have led\nme to\nthe solution Wolfe gave.\n\nNo doubt you're right in general that we should consider fantastic\nexplanations,\nbut I don't see how it applies to the boy in Baldanders's castle.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T17:46:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n the Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman- No doubt you're right in general that we should consider \nfantastic explanations, but I don't see how it applies to the boy in Baldanders's \ncastle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I suppose the catamite status of the baby would fall under my other \ncategory, \"unpleasantly outrageous\" better than \"fantastic\" explanations.\n \nI was addressing what I thought were some other posters who were willing\nto give Baldanders the benefit of the doubt with regard to this issue. I don't\nthink he was intended to receive such benefit from Wolfe. Perhaps from Severian\nthough.\n \nI don't see the importance in wondering whether the chained, decorated baby in\nhis bed is currently being used as a sexual object or whether that is planned\nfor the future. But Severian does. Why? Perhaps it is his way of saying, \"well\nif you have such thoughts and plans, but haven't gotten to act on them yet, then\nit isn't so bad\". Perhaps this ties to his odd comment regarding Little Severian.\n \nPerhaps I have been too obtuse. The point of my thoughts on this thread is that\nI detect evidence that Severian has had homosexual and pedophillic thoughts and \nexperiences in his life. Though we are his confidants, he doesn't quite want to\nadmit these but manages to betray himself anyway, to those attuned to the signals.\nHis discussion of these activities when engaged in by others suggests mild \ndisapproval and denial of interest mixed with contradictions that essentially\n\"out\" him.\n \nIt seems like an almost embarassing, painfully intimate confession if there can\nbe such a thing of a fictional character. It leaves me wondering if I should \neven be discussing such things in a public forum. Perhaps that was the intention \nof the author. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51D536.8060004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T19:23:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So who is the child in Baldander's bed? [was: Juturna,\n the Missing Sister]", "in_reply_to": "<53885.77566.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/29/2010 10:16 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nWe may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part\nof a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but Gene\nWolfe didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She may mean that they don't object when people take care of homeless children\nto sexually exploit them, or she may be referring to other \"unnatural\" practices\nbut not that. I doubt very much she means the Pelerines tolerate pedophilia\nwhen the children have other possibilities. (To the extent that objecting to\nanything would do them any good. Whatever the religion of Severian's time is\nlike, we hear little or nothing of its moral doctrines or the idea that anyone\nmight follow them.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe did live in a world where \"chicken hawks\" were occasionally \ntreated sympathetically in the media, particularly when their exploitees \nturned out to be gay runaways, who easily could have had worse prospects \nin the drug- and mob-infested big cities they were drawn to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A lot of people don't bring it up often. However, as I said before, I agree\nwith you that it's striking that Severian doesn't mention it in reference to the\napprentices' lives in the Matachin Tower. (As many here have probably found\nout, the name Matachin can suggest homosexuality, though not pedophilia.\n.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Years ago I giggled about that sailing over GW's head, but it's starting \nto look like he meant it to suggest some homosex background.\n\nI can see Severian not mentioning the sodomy because it's just the way \nthings were where he was raised, and it explains the emphasis he puts on \nhis hetero achievements, but where does he get his otherwise everyday \n\"common\" knowledge, like that people might disapprove of pederastry, or \nthat there's a special potion that lets you relive the life of a dead \nperson? Lots of people come to the torturers, but outside of Thecla, the \ncircumstances don't seem to favor cultural inculation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose,\nbe wrong..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are alternate and plausible explanations?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna, the Missing Sister", "in_reply_to": "<924139.11675.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nOn Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose,\nbe wrong..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the\nboy is a catamite. At least so far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is trying to deny it because he likes Baldanders and would prefer not\nto think of him as doing something as nasty as fucking a little boy.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:37:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jack Smith- Severian uses the word \"catamite\" and so something must\nsuggest a sexual element to him. But I like the idea that the child\nis Baldander's son (or his Number Five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing\nis the word \"catamite\" is used. Severian is not a real person" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you believe this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " who might\nhave meaningless random musings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been\ncrafted with a purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he has a\ndifferent Author.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T12:58:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he has a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence too vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended by us.\n \nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is referring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part where he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear simple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those sort of\nplaces. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7d8015ca9181cc62bfa364f4c2c2cbc3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T13:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why are you presuming?\n\nYou don't know?\n\nIs not the Author of the author the Author?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended by\nus.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is referring\nto his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B581.5000704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T17:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he \noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane \nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he has a\ndifferent Author\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence too vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended by us.\n \nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?\n \n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is referring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part where he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear simple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those sort of\nplaces. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8105e7f9156625cbf8f8a69f2bcb6cf0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:09:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B581.5000704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B932.9080408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:13:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<8105e7f9156625cbf8f8a69f2bcb6cf0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did no such thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nStill, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he\nhas a\ndifferent Author\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<774419725d92d87db3f375d6d186f0b1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:19:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B932.9080408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55BF3D.7010103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:38:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<774419725d92d87db3f375d6d186f0b1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to \ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhat is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14296c38fd154e6f0e79ff46d2606c91.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T20:41:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55BF3D.7010103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55ED15.9050203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T21:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<14296c38fd154e6f0e79ff46d2606c91.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nBecause I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6951f24caaebf2fbe9a2d8770e3aeaa3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T22:03:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55ED15.9050203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55F02E.2090203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T22:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<6951f24caaebf2fbe9a2d8770e3aeaa3.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that \nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYou don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100731-1, 07/31/2010\nTested on: 8/1/2010 8:59:14 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<908839aaf441fe8ed2d4b7bfaa27fb4a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T22:10:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55F02E.2090203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is.\n\nI thought that you had gone stupid on me.\n\nWhy do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that\nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple\nto\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters.\nThe\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying\nto\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one\nof\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T22:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55F02E.2090203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if you prefer to continue digging, there is a reason why you want to\ngo six feet down.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that\nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple\nto\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters.\nThe\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying\nto\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one\nof\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55FF76.2070501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T23:12:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<908839aaf441fe8ed2d4b7bfaa27fb4a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which passage?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAh! You do in fact know what a scruple is.\n\nI thought that you had gone stupid on me.\n\nWhy do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that\nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple\nto\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters.\nThe\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying\nto\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one\nof\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100731-1, 07/31/2010\nTested on: 8/1/2010 8:59:14 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2da1a09a482c565eb5965f96663128c7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T23:49:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C55FF76.2070501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stockhoff, take stock.\n\nBe a fucking weasel, see what happens.\n\nIt probably won't come from me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which passage?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is.\n\nI thought that you had gone stupid on me.\n\nWhy do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner\nthat\nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and\nwhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple\nto\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator\nsays\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these\nmundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator\nsays\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these\nmundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I\nis\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of\nSeverian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he\nis\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters.\nThe\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying\nto\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be\none\nof\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5609E0.4080908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T23:57:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<2da1a09a482c565eb5965f96663128c7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're utterly lost, Josh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nStockhoff, take stock.\n\nBe a fucking weasel, see what happens.\n\nIt probably won't come from me.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which passage?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is.\n\nI thought that you had gone stupid on me.\n\nWhy do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage?\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner\nthat\nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and\nwhy?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple\nto\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator\nsays\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these\nmundane\nobservations.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator\nsays\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these\nmundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I\nis\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of\nSeverian?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he\nis\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters.\nThe\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying\nto\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be\none\nof\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T02:00:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C5609E0.4080908@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is what email is for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYou're utterly lost, Josh.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stockhoff, take stock.\n\nBe a fucking weasel, see what happens.\n\nIt probably won't come from me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Which passage?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is.\n\nI thought that you had gone stupid on me.\n\nWhy do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner\nthat\nis relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions.\n\nCall it a scruple.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "You don't know what a scruple is.\n\nElse you would have answered my more or less civil question.\n\nWhat character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and\nwhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Because I enjoy fucking with weasels.\n\nWhat's your forfeit to be?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple\nto\ndo one or the other.\n\nWhy do you scruple to read people's posts?\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "What is a scruple, Stockhoff?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator\nsays\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these\nmundane\nobservations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "I did no such thing.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 12, "text": "Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian.\n\nWhy?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator\nsays\nhe\noften thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these\nmundane\nobservations.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I\nis\nthat\nhe\nhas a\ndifferent Author" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an\nintelligence\ntoo vast,\npenetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be\ncomprehended\nby us.\n\nHow true is that of the intelligence of the author of\nSeverian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 15, "text": "Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure.\nHe is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 14, "text": "I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he\nis\nreferring to his\nown wife and children in addition to his fictional characters.\nThe\npart\nwhere he\ndescribes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying\nto\nappear\nsimple,\nsomeone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be\none\nof\nthose\nsort of\nplaces.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100731-1, 07/31/2010\nTested on: 8/1/2010 8:59:14 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 13, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C562808.4060701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T02:06:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The best way to respond to random hostility on a listserv is OFFLINE.\nThe poster will very quickly lose interest in the conversation and, \nultimately, you feel more satisfied.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 9:00 PM, aaron wrote:\nI think this is what email is for." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-02T02:14:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "<4C562808.4060701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The best time to do this is before the hostile poster has asked you\nquestions that you do not wish to answer.\n\nI will never lose interest in fucking with weasels.\n\nWynn - measurably the least stupid of the JW's as well as far the least\nweaselicious - is not actually correct.\n\nHowever, I only respond to what people say, normally, unless I think of\nsomething particularly witty.\n\nAdmittedly this does happen with some frequency.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The best way to respond to random hostility on a listserv is OFFLINE.\nThe poster will very quickly lose interest in the conversation and,\nultimately, you feel more satisfied.\n\nu+16b9\n\nOn 8/1/2010 9:00 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think this is what email is for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-02T09:05:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is Severian A Real Person?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did someone actually say, in a critical tone of voice, with their bare\nface hanging out, as a sort of complaint, that I am deliberately\nenigmatic?\n\nI still cannot wrap my head around this.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<92b2a2dd8095cb36473130544b1e83f6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-03T03:55:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) St Ignatius of Loyola and the Cumaen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ignatius [of Loyola] ... began seeing a series of visions in full daylight\nwhile in hospital. These repetitive visions appeared as \"a form in the air\nnear him and this form gave him much consolation because it was\nexceedingly beautiful ... it somehow seemed to have the shape of a serpent\nand had many things that shone like eyes, but were not eyes. He received\nmuch delight and consolation from gazing upon this object ... but when the\nobject vanished he became disconsolate.\"\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-03T11:31:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) St Ignatius of Loyola and the Cumaen", "in_reply_to": "<92b2a2dd8095cb36473130544b1e83f6.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians- ....began seeing a series of visions in full daylight\nwhile in hospital. These repetitive visions appeared as \"a form in the air\nnear him and this form gave him much consolation because it was\nexceedingly beautiful ... it somehow seemed to have the shape of a serpent\nand had many things that shone like eyes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think that is interesting. Some other parallels between Serverian and\nSt. Ignatius..\n \n- he was in the hospital due to a leg injury incurred serving\nas a soldier\n \n-he had a spiritual journey filled with strife and trouble.\n \n- he called up an earthquake and also a storm at sea\n \n- he healed the sick including a woman's withered arm.\n \nIgnatius could have been a partial inspiration for Wolfe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-03T11:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) St Ignatius of Loyola and the Cumaen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians- ....began seeing a series of visions in full daylight\nwhile in hospital. These repetitive visions appeared as \"a form in the\nair\nnear him and this form gave him much consolation because it was\nexceedingly beautiful ... it somehow seemed to have the shape of a\nserpent\nand had many things that shone like eyes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that is interesting. Some other parallels between Serverian and\nSt. Ignatius..\n\n- he was in the hospital due to a leg injury incurred serving\nas a soldier\n\n-he had a spiritual journey filled with strife and trouble.\n\n- he called up an earthquake and also a storm at sea\n\n- he healed the sick including a woman's withered arm.\n\nIgnatius could have been a partial inspiration for Wolfe.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B5D6F.2040309@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T00:55:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) St Ignatius of Loyola and the Cumaen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 03/08/10 12:31, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think that is interesting. Some other parallels between Serverian and\nSt. Ignatius..\n\n- he was in the hospital due to a leg injury incurred serving\nas a soldier\n\n-he had a spiritual journey filled with strife and trouble.\n\n- he called up an earthquake and also a storm at sea\n\n- he healed the sick including a woman's withered arm.\n\nIgnatius could have been a partial inspiration for Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So could his Order - 'black' (OK fuligin) clothing, prohibition of \nmarriage, primacy of absolute obedience ('Torturers Obey') and their \nmethod of selecting recruits: other than boy babies born within their \nTower, the Seekers of Truth and Penitence will take and educate male \nchildren who come to them (presumably with their condemned parent/s) who \nare able to stand beneath a certain metal bar which projects at about 3 \nft. ('the height of a man's groin' - or similar, I don't have the book \nin front of me right now) from a bulkhead.\n\n'Give me a child before he is seven years old and he is mine for life'.\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }